AvarisToday at 6:44 PM
@ZagOnEm (Julia)

ZagOnEm (Julia)Today at 6:51 PM
server machine broke...?
i have a ping
but it's not visible

Bees Pizza²Today at 6:51 PM
Oh, hey, we didn't wanna like... talk at you until we were sure you were around lol

ZagOnEm (Julia)Today at 6:51 PM
ok
i'll be frank i'm a bit confused

Bees Pizza²Today at 6:52 PM
that's fair, so I'd ask you give me a moment to explain
so basically, we on the DU mod team have gone back and forth on this for awhile, but we decided that it is probably an appropriate time to talk to you about some behavioral concerns we’ve had when it comes to your interactions on the server. 
there's been instances where we’ve tried to DM you about this in the past, and various staff members have reported that you tend to ignore or choose not to respond to our outreach, so we’ve had to resolve to bubbling you and hopefully talking through some things.

to cut right to the chase, there have been a number of incidents that have toed very close to the line of violating Rules 2/2.5, and each instance has been small and localized enough that it hasn’t amounted to any huge deal, but it has gotten to the point where the frequency of these moments have evolved into a pattern—and that’s the part that is not OK.

ZagOnEm (Julia)Today at 6:56 PM
so, is the latest incident about when i said death threats were bad

Bees Pizza²Today at 6:56 PM
the latest incident was when you, danido and al3rbi were discussing the Israel/Palestine issue in gen-1
...well, at least, that I was around to witness :stevenface:

ZagOnEm (Julia)Today at 6:57 PM
ok

Bees Pizza²Today at 6:57 PM
but here's basically my point
you know this isn't a "no politics" server, and that we care a great deal about people being able to voice their opinions. talking about politics and other serious social matters is a really great way to engage and generate new ideas and understanding, even, but the argumentative approach you take is where we have to draw the line.
by all means, know that we are not apologists for any of the people here who post inflammatory comments, make exclusive remarks, or use inappropriate language when speaking about sensitive subjects. but, at the same time, we need you to understand that it is not your place as a member to police that sort of behavior—and certainly not by being critical or mean to the user who is violating our rules. I know you've modded for other communities before, so it might be like, an instinct you've got wired in and I can totally appreciate that--heck, I know you're coming from a place where you want the best for this server and its community, you know? but we as a team thoughtfully discuss every decision we make here, especially when it comes to policing user behavior, and we take time to weigh our decisions before making them to avoid creating hostile environments. when you try to correct other users behavior, it subverts that whole process we've developed, so please try to rein it in.

if you feel the need to vocalize your opinion on a subject, we're just asking that you ask yourself this question before hitting send: is the way I am presenting this civil, and if not, is there a way I can change my language without censoring the point I am trying to make?
if the answer is no, then it's probably not something appropriate to say on DU and I would advise dropping the point altogether.

ZagOnEm (Julia)Today at 7:04 PM
"and certainly not by being critical"?
so criticism, period, is uncivil?

Bees Pizza²Today at 7:04 PM
oh no I didn't mean that quite so literally
I guess a better word would be like
'brutally honest'?
that's two words but ya know what I mean :stevenface:

ZagOnEm (Julia)Today at 7:06 PM
I think we're clearly working with different definitions of "civil."
I don't call names. I don't yell. (or whatever the closest thing is, over text.)
I also don't mince words, though. When someone says "Oh, it's just racial discrimination and that's not really a problem," I'm not going to treat that like a harmless opinion like "I don't like mint chocolate."
I'm not going to go "oh you're terrible and you need to die," though.
And when someone who is trying to argue with me ignores what I said, I'm going to bring up that they ignored me.
The trouble is that, if someone is dishonestly arguing with you, the only way to prevent conflict is to be a doormat. And I understand that that sounds a little silly when it's regarding teenagers, but I don't really believe in "kid gloves," so to speak.

Bees Pizza²Today at 7:16 PM
I have a few thoughts, sorry, I wanted to give you the chance to say everything/type up a fully formed thought before responding
The bar for civility here may simply be higher than it is in other communities you’re apart of then—of course name calling and yelling wouldn’t be permitted here, but we also would appreciate if you could sometimes look at the situation in which you’re about to engage and decide if there is a way to convey your point without being, frankly, so harsh? I’m not asking you to dial back or withhold your opinions whatsoever—in fact, a lot of us here happen to share your beliefs on social issues when those arise—but stirring up an argument with someone here isn’t going to be the end-all-be-all of changing their minds on an issue.

since it is convenient, referring to the Israel-Palestine issue, both danido and al3rbi come from different cultural backgrounds and have different life experiences than yours. telling them that they are wrong and here are the reasons why is not an effective strategy towards building understanding—it only serves to make the general audience involved in the conversation uncomfortable, and is not an amiable route to which you could try to persuade someone to see your point of view.
I don't think "kids gloves" are the right approach either--we try to set the same expectations for all of our members here regardless of their age--and this is a standard that most of our community meets

ZagOnEm (Julia)Today at 7:21 PM
There's also simply a dangerous dynamic when multiple people are controlling a conversation "against" a single person.
It forces one to be on the defensive

Bees Pizza²Today at 7:22 PM
I mean that's totally understandable too
like this last instance was more of just a catalyst for the conversation, but not all of the instances in which this has happened had that sort of interaction

ZagOnEm (Julia)Today at 7:24 PM
Obviously this is a common sentiment, but I don't feel I treat people unfairly in this server.

Bees Pizza²Today at 7:25 PM
actually, I would agree with you there
I think you treat just about everyone the same, but I just want to ask that you try to practice a bit more kindness here unilaterally

ZagOnEm (Julia)Today at 7:26 PM
well, that's not what I mean by "fairly"

Bees Pizza²Today at 7:26 PM
o
shit sorry I misunderstood

ZagOnEm (Julia)Today at 7:27 PM
"just or appropriate in the circumstances" is the definition i was going for

Bees Pizza²Today at 7:27 PM
ooooh okay

ZagOnEm (Julia)Today at 7:30 PM
like, is one of the incidents in question when several users were exchanging jokes about belittling anyone who doesn't love capitalism?
and then posted laughing emoji in response to anyone expressing leftist opinions?

Bees Pizza²Today at 7:33 PM
"Just?" absolutely. there's nothing wrong or improper about sparking up a conversation with someone who disagrees with you. honestly we've had a fair amount of those here, and most of them go OK? I guess the distinctive line I wanted to address in all of this is the "appropriate in the circumstances" kind of piece.

do I think the way you approach discussions/debates/discourse on DU is appropriate? not always--infrequently enough that it led us here.

so this is probably a silly tangent, but I promise it's related-- my favorite book is called zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance, and it has this amazing line in it that I revisit all the time. "If someone's ungrateful and you tell him he's ungrateful, okay, you've called him a name. You haven't solved anything."

and the problem with any debate, whether it's done online, in person, on television is that when you point out what is wrong with someone or with someone's argument, it doesn't actually teach them anything, and I think that's the point of distinction here. pointing out to danido or al3rbi how there are undetones to genocide apologism in the kind of statements they made doesn't actually teach them anything, especially at the level of discourse being had, because they're just presenting counterpoints to points. for real understanding to be reached, you would have to really divest a lesson and connect with them (or others) in a way they hadn't before.

(for the record, I know you don't call people names, but the quote serves a point beyond just that)
also I don't actually know what you're specifically referencing with that thing about the capitalism or leftism, so I'm sorry I can't say more to that end :pearl_sweat:

ZagOnEm (Julia)Today at 7:35 PM
ok
here's a perspective of mine
a lot of online communities have a problem where the community and the staff seem to rarely be in accordance.
This server is not in that state. I personally think it used to be, but now it's in a much healthier state.
I think a big contributor to that appearance is when, say, someone posts something, doesn't get any criticism from other users, but then gets a warning from the mods.
I think it contributes to the health of a community to say out loud when you're not ok with something. the same way it's often healthy to publicly announce bans.

Bees Pizza²Today at 7:41 PM
I think I'm following so far--I don't wanna interrupt but just so I'm getting things because im always a little :dekuohno: big think

ZagOnEm (Julia)Today at 7:42 PM
i have pizza now, is the thing

Bees Pizza²Today at 7:42 PM
LOL
aw man I was gonna use the buck dewey pizza rain gif but I don't have it on my laptop :sadcowboy:
anyway
so the fact that DU has a fairly cohesive community and mod team, and announces when there are bans like in the mod-log, and empowers the users to voice when there are things that are problematic--those are all.... good things? :stevenface:

ZagOnEm (Julia)Today at 7:44 PM
absolutely!
i was in a community that i loved, but the mod team was incredibly disconnected from the rest of the server
and it led to people getting banned and no one finding out until much later, and the mods adding bots and removing channels, etc
a mess

Bees Pizza²Today at 7:46 PM
I have the perfect emote for that
:pearlgross:

ZagOnEm (Julia)Today at 7:47 PM
and a big part of the problem imo was that there was a really strict number of anti-conflict rules
that essentially meant that people could say hurtful things without fear of social repercussion
i feel like i'm a bit lost in the sauce atm
i will need a minute to messily eat these wings and reconstruct my point

Bees Pizza²Today at 7:49 PM
LOL
tbh i felt that
it's cool

ZagOnEm (Julia)Today at 7:51 PM
i guess my point is, the start of a conflict is almost always earlier than it appears
there were a couple extreme examples of this in that other server. two people could be having a discussion, person A says something a little bit off, and BOOM, person B blows up at them.
wow, person B must've been crazy, huh?
what isn't apparent is all those times person A implied something about person B, or mischaracterized them, or just plain hurt their feelings and didn't apologize.
the other night i was being, for lack of a better term, strawmanned.

Bees Pizza²Today at 7:56 PM
(the other night referring to--the danido/al3rbi interaction? just to make sure I'm following)

ZagOnEm (Julia)Today at 7:56 PM
now, i didn't use that term at the time. because i didn't want to use potentially inflammatory terms, ironically.
yeah
i felt like i was being aggressed upon. my character was being called into question, and i was being talked down to
and, i don't think it was malicious. but it's just not in-character for me to not voice those feelings in some way.

Bees Pizza²Today at 8:04 PM
I can understand that, and honestly, I would have been a little on edge had I been in your position in that specific instance. I guess I need to return my earlier point that this isn't the only instance in which a latent sort of hostile environment has come up, of which you were a primary participant. I dislike the idea of pulling out little examples because that feels very nitpicky, and it's not like I'm trying to berate you on micro-level interactions--I can, if you want, if you feel it would be more helpful to facilitating this conversation. I guess that's my point in all of this, I feel like, this discussion we're having? this is a conversation. this feels productive and like we're both understanding each other better for it
I respect and admire your ability to vocalize your social and political positions unapologetically, especially since I know you identify as (at least one?) minority. it takes a lot of self-efficacy to be able to hold your own in discussions and be willing to pick up the pieces when someone leaves something shitty kind of stuck in a conversation. but a lot of people aren't receptive to hearing that kind of criticism, especially if they're feeling attacked, embarrassed, or called out in a public forum. so while someone's choice of wording, for example, may be in bad taste, the culture of "calling someone out" is necessarily divisive. it doesn't build understanding or mutual respect between two viewpoints, it just further polarizes whatever disagreement brought you to that point in the first place.
anyway, that is a bit philosophical and beyond the scope of my role here--I just, I want you to know that we really do value you, Zag. you're unique and insightful and hilarious. I appreciate having you around and hearing what you have to say. in an attempt to diffuse some of that hostility that tends to plague your conversations, however, what me and the rest of the DU mods really want is just for you to dial back some of the parts of your discourse that seem like they're provoking a negative or argumentative response from whoever else is involved

ZagOnEm (Julia)Today at 8:14 PM
i don't think that going down every incident and me explaining why i think it was warranted and ok is going to be useful
for either of us

Bees Pizza²Today at 8:17 PM
I don't either. But I want you know that's how seriously I and the rest of the staff consider this--it wouldn't be a burden if you thought it could be constructive. I dislike the idea of pointing out things because it feels unfair and basically like I'm scolding you for things that have already happened when that's not really the point I want to make here, but I am more committed to a resolution in which you understand why we feel the way we do, and can move forward with an understanding that the trajectory of your behavior isn't sustainable

ZagOnEm (Julia)Today at 8:22 PM
i want to say that i do get why y'all feel this way, but i would like to implore that this feeling not be exclusively directed at the most assertive person in a discussion.
that is, i suppose, "the point."
someone can very casually make a community feel less safe
and maybe not even mean to!

Bees Pizza²Today at 8:24 PM
that's incredibly valid, and in the event that someone does, I think you are insightful enough to recognize it when some others aren't
but please DM one of us :connie_wellactually: when someone raises a concern to you

ZagOnEm (Julia)Today at 8:24 PM
thank you.

Bees Pizza²Today at 8:25 PM
honestly? thank you
I used to work with college students all damn day and it's nice to be able to talk to someone who isn't just :spinelglasses: energy all the time

ZagOnEm (Julia)Today at 8:25 PM
why is everyone pizza now

p i z z aToday at 8:25 PM
yes, thanks for being so receptive julia !

Bees Pizza²Today at 8:25 PM
I recognize we're both human beings and we're both bound to funk it up sometimes but it's pizza time

p i z z aToday at 8:25 PM
its pizza time

Bees Pizza²Today at 8:26 PM
so if you're cool with it, I'd like to release you unto the pizza party

ZagOnEm (Julia)Today at 8:26 PM
i want you to know that i just tried to star that message

Bees Pizza²Today at 8:26 PM
LOL
LASKJDFLAS

ZagOnEm (Julia)Today at 8:26 PM
can we keep DMing, RFD?

Bees Pizza²Today at 8:26 PM
:ypearluwu:
of course