Thoughts on Spyro 2 Any%, waterfall proxy, and the meta

I recently achieved sub 10 minutes in Spyro 2 Any% using waterfall proxy as an end game skip, a dream of mine from years ago. Several top level runners were, and I’m sure still are, of the opinion that waterfall proxy is useless now. I have no hard feelings toward any of the people who tried to discouraged me from using waterfall proxy. They’re very good runners, and definitely know what they’re talking about an a lot of senses. But they are also very biased, and it’s important to know that when analyzing different options in speedrunning. Just because waterfall’s use as the meta game is obsolete doesn’t mean it has nothing to offer. I’ve said it before that waterfall proxy is still a good strat, and a very good option for certain circumstances, such as mine. While it can’t ever be made as consistent as Sproder into Ripto (SiR) can be, and while it is a little slower than SiR, it’s still faster than the fastest theatre strats, and it took me less time to get it first try in a good run than it has ever taken anyone to ever get SiR once even using save states. It probably took me an accumulated 10 hours or so from trying to figure it out to getting it in my PB. I didn’t want hundreds of hours into SiR. I just wanted a sub 10 soon. Waterfall, and plenty of other great strats out there won’t benefit everyone. But forget what others say and run how you think you will be most successful. I was told the following:

Drashed:
"The trick isn't hard, it's just seemingly random where it's not fun to grind a run and hope you get waterfall"
His first statement is pretty true. Gaining and understanding of how the truck works isn’t really all that hard. By far, the best and easiest to understand tutorial is Retro’s, here: . Depending on your patience and skill, the proxy may prove to be more or less difficult than simply saying it’s “easy”. But overall, learning it isn’t hard with the proper guidance. As to the second statement, that is a very personal and flawed assumption. I found it very fun to run any% with waterfall. In fact, I found myself with the Pb I was looking for before I’d even gotten to the point where it felt like much of a grind. It only took me 2 days from deciding to try to get it in a run to getting it first try. And even if it had taken longer, I found it fun because it took some pressure off the rest of the run. In order to get sub 10, even with waterfall, I couldn’t afford to have a bad run with my current skill level. But the trick is faster than theatre strats enough that the possibility of a first try proxy at least allowed me to not need everything else to go way better than average; which made doing runs less frustrating and much more fun.

Walker:
"my opinion on it is if you're not going for something in the low 8's then it's way more worth it to just do theater"
Valid opinion. But it is definitely the opinion of a very top level player. For people who aren’t on that level, you can hardly say the best strats aren’t worth it if you’re not going for a top level time. That assumes that good times are just as viable to lesser players than to top players, which is honestly pretty stupid to think. The big time saving tricks aren’t even most of what makes the fastest times faster.

Drashed:
"I personally think focusing on movement is more important than tricks. Why try get a bad run with waterfall when you can improve the rest first and maybe get a good run with waterfall"
This statement is true, and movement can always be improved. But it’s flawed to assume that just because I want to use waterfall to make the difference for getting a sub 10, that that means my movement is poor. I’m not an expert at the game like drashed, but I’ve put plenty of time into practice and my movement is pretty good. And you can’t say it’s unnecessary or impractical to use certain skips only once you’ve gained a certain level of movement. That’s absolutely dumb. Use the fastest methods you can to go the fastest you can. Ultimately, that fits right with the latter part of what drashed said here, so I’m not sure what the point of his statement was in the argument.

Lewisb99:
"yeah sub 10 with theatre is quite easy but... I'm unsure of how much time you have put into S2 hopKid"
Similar to the last 2 points, it’s easy to say it’s easy when you’re a better player. I've found that top runners often forget what it’s like to not be a top runner. The reason a sub 10 is easy for someone who’s Pb is an 8:30 is because not only have they put in all the practice and grinding of movement and tricks in order to achieve that, but they’ve also grinded 8:30 paced runs enough times that it becomes natural to them, and easy. It almost becomes hard to not go that fast without straight up messing something up. But that doesn’t mean it’s easy. It means you’ve put in a shit ton of work. Lewis partly understood that based on the rest of his statement; but once again, assumptions were made. I’ve spent tons of time with Spyro 2, and the trilogy in general. I have improved immensely. But just because I’ve spent lots of time and put lots of work in doesn’t mean sub 10 is free. Skill level is a whole spectrum, and it is dumb and unwise to think that there is not a place on that spectrum where sub 10 with theatre is possible but not easily realistic, but where the time save of waterfall could make the difference. That’s exactly where I am on the spectrum and that’s what I was trying to explain. And similar circumstances may be true if other runners and other tricks.

Walker:
"obviously it is faster than theatre but if you're going to put a shit ton of time into an end game skip it may as well be SiR
and if you're just going for sub 10 then theater is more than viable
would probably be much easier to get sub 10 with theater than with waterfall considering it's just so more much consistent"
The points made here aren’t very obviously wrong and probably apply in many situations. But once again, the assumptions made are flawed. The whole point of me doing waterfall is because I had the feeling it wouldn’t take a shit ton of time. It didn’t. For me, it was definitely WAY WAY more worth it that trying to do SiR. Obviously SiR is basically required for record, but that’s not what I was going for. Different tricks give different benefits at different costs. Once again, assuming sub 10 is free with theatre strats is a flawed top level assumption. It is a perfectly obtainable level of skill. It just takes more work than it comes of as when said like that. And it probably takes more work than  it would have for me to have just gotten sub 10 with waterfall like I did. Finally, confusing easy/viability with consistency is flawed. Just because theatre can be much more consistent independent of the rest of the run doesn’t mean that it will make getting a certain time, regardless of how realistic it is, easier than with a less consistent alternative strat. In fact, I proved that. Grinding theatre strats for a week only managed to get me a mere sub 11 and not even a Pb because while theatre is more consistent, the rest of the run gives ample opportunity for less consistency (gulp and penguin). But when when the requirement for your best pace is no longer present, as long as a pretty good run proceeds, even though waterfall is inconsistent, seemingly as soon as it comes first try, sub 10 becomes much more achievable. Of course this won’t be the case for everyone or even most players, but it did for me because of the point on the level of play spectrum.

The point is, the best runners don’t always know everything. They may have good points, but it’s important to test things out yourself and run the way you feel you should, and the way you feel you can, and do what will help you reach your goals.

At the end of the day, I’ve always just wanted a sub 10 Pb with waterfall proxy. So I went and got what I wanted.

“If you want to do a trick, just do the trick.” -XandoToaster