[09-Feb-21 06:53 PM] Shrug#7659
Screens next


[09-Feb-21 06:54 PM] LilyAC#7887
woobat


[09-Feb-21 06:55 PM] Coconut#8762
we're not doing woobat, it's not broken individually.


[09-Feb-21 06:55 PM] Coconut#8762
screens and grookey accomplish the same thing


[09-Feb-21 06:55 PM] Coconut#8762
and would be a better ban


[09-Feb-21 06:55 PM] LilyAC#7887
grookey does not accomplish the same thing whatsoever


[09-Feb-21 06:55 PM] Coconut#8762
woobat's not a problem at all


[09-Feb-21 06:55 PM] Coconut#8762
without it


[09-Feb-21 06:55 PM] LilyAC#7887
grookey is the support mon for woobat


[09-Feb-21 06:56 PM] LilyAC#7887
but it supports nothing else


[09-Feb-21 06:56 PM] Coconut#8762
grookey doesn't support much else but it limits a ton of things


[09-Feb-21 06:56 PM] LilyAC#7887
in that case you think grookey is a problem on its own


[09-Feb-21 06:56 PM] Coconut#8762
I don't really want to debate this right now


[09-Feb-21 06:56 PM] LilyAC#7887
and woobat is irrelevant to that


[09-Feb-21 06:56 PM] Coconut#8762
I would say yes grookey is a problem independent to woobat


[09-Feb-21 06:57 PM] LilyAC#7887
okay but thats a totally different discussion


[09-Feb-21 06:57 PM] LilyAC#7887
to whether woobat is broken


[09-Feb-21 06:57 PM] levi#6206
i think grookey has to be a problem independent of woobat to warrant a suspect


[09-Feb-21 06:57 PM] Coconut#8762
which I think is a much more prevalent one


[09-Feb-21 06:57 PM] levi#6206
o.w woobat is lower collateral


[09-Feb-21 06:57 PM] Shrug#7659
grookey ban would be a for-real mon ban. i see the argument for it, but dont agree. the bat is just a diceroll little fucker.


[09-Feb-21 06:57 PM] Coconut#8762
I think there's a set of priority that would constitute going for grookey first


(Quoting [09-Feb-21 06:57 PM] levi#6206
i think grookey has to be a problem independent of woobat to warrant a suspect)
[09-Feb-21 06:57 PM] LilyAC#7887
yea this isnt even an opinion its just fact, thats the policy we follow


[09-Feb-21 06:58 PM] Coconut#8762
I think a woobat ban would be foolish if we end up suspecting and banning grookey as well


[09-Feb-21 06:58 PM] LilyAC#7887
if more people think grookey is a problem alone, it makes total sense to suspect grookey first


[09-Feb-21 06:58 PM] LilyAC#7887
but it needs to be stressed that woobat is irrelevant to whether grookey should be banned or suspected


[09-Feb-21 06:58 PM] Coconut#8762
fair point


[09-Feb-21 06:59 PM] Coconut#8762
I don't really want to do this right now


[09-Feb-21 06:59 PM] Pablo#5523
ban woobat


[09-Feb-21 06:59 PM] Coconut#8762
I have a lot of dumb stuff to do and I am not a fan of going back to back on suspects


[09-Feb-21 06:59 PM] Coconut#8762
let's sit for a minute or two


[09-Feb-21 07:00 PM] LilyAC#7887
like "grookey is banworthy because enabling woobat pushes it over the edge" is objectively invalid and theres ppl that dont realise that


[09-Feb-21 07:00 PM] levi#6206
we can free woobat if grookey gets individually banned


[09-Feb-21 07:00 PM] LilyAC#7887
thats tru


[09-Feb-21 07:00 PM] Coconut#8762
we could put that to a vote later


[09-Feb-21 07:02 PM] Shrug#7659
fuck the bat


[09-Feb-21 07:03 PM] Shrug#7659
fuck the bat and fuck natu


[09-Feb-21 07:04 PM] Shrug#7659
although natu isnt the driving force of screens rlly, abra or staryu could probably do it for them


[09-Feb-21 07:05 PM] levi#6206
yeah i think a screen ban to bring the archetype down might take more bans than just banning the strongest abusers


[09-Feb-21 07:10 PM] tazz#1609
ok


[09-Feb-21 07:10 PM] tazz#1609
woobat suspect


[09-Feb-21 07:13 PM] levi#6206
theres less hurry for non-vull suspects i think


[09-Feb-21 07:13 PM] levi#6206
since itll be easy to adjust


[09-Feb-21 07:17 PM] tazz#1609
can we put woobat to a vote


[09-Feb-21 07:20 PM] Luthier#3120
i agree for woobat suspect


[09-Feb-21 07:20 PM] Luthier#3120
grookey suspect is


[09-Feb-21 07:21 PM] Luthier#3120
absolutely fucking dumb


[09-Feb-21 07:21 PM] Luthier#3120
there is no way we are suspecting grookey


[09-Feb-21 07:21 PM] Luthier#3120
that mon is holding the tier together w vullaby


[09-Feb-21 07:22 PM] Coconut#8762
Is it?


[09-Feb-21 07:22 PM] Luthier#3120
if we lose grookey might as well just hand every webs team a win from now until forerver


[09-Feb-21 07:22 PM] Luthier#3120
yes it is


[09-Feb-21 07:22 PM] Luthier#3120
nothing else has as strong of a guaranteed priority


[09-Feb-21 07:22 PM] Luthier#3120
as grookey


[09-Feb-21 07:22 PM] Coconut#8762
Corp is pretty close


[09-Feb-21 07:22 PM] Luthier#3120
,


[09-Feb-21 07:22 PM] Luthier#3120
no


[09-Feb-21 07:22 PM] Luthier#3120
its not even close


[09-Feb-21 07:22 PM] Luthier#3120
corph doesnt have pivoting power


[09-Feb-21 07:22 PM] tazz#1609
well you can't really justify keeping grook if its broken by its effects but i don't think its broken


[09-Feb-21 07:22 PM] Coconut#8762
Adapt Ajet


[09-Feb-21 07:23 PM] tazz#1609
anyway i don't really care, most of the council is pro woobat suspect


[09-Feb-21 07:23 PM] Luthier#3120
corph also doesnt hold jack in its speed tier


[09-Feb-21 07:23 PM] Luthier#3120
im hella anti grookey suspect


[09-Feb-21 07:23 PM] Coconut#8762
Why does it need it to beat Webs


[09-Feb-21 07:23 PM] Luthier#3120
woobat sure w/e, but i do not agree at all w grookey


[09-Feb-21 07:23 PM] Luthier#3120
well that was just one example


[09-Feb-21 07:24 PM] Luthier#3120
im not saying thats grookeys sole purpose


[09-Feb-21 07:24 PM] BurntZebra#8147
id be fine with either a grook suspect or woobat suspect


[09-Feb-21 07:24 PM] Coconut#8762
Okay how else would it hold the tier together


[09-Feb-21 07:24 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i doubt theres anything broken now that wouldnt have been broken in sm lc


[09-Feb-21 07:24 PM] BurntZebra#8147
that grookey is necessary to check


[09-Feb-21 07:25 PM] Luthier#3120
yea


[09-Feb-21 07:25 PM] Luthier#3120
im not running defensive spritz on teams


[09-Feb-21 07:25 PM] Luthier#3120
just to deal w scraggy


[09-Feb-21 07:25 PM] BurntZebra#8147
that just means grook has more offensive utility


[09-Feb-21 07:25 PM] Coconut#8762
Why not


[09-Feb-21 07:25 PM] Luthier#3120
its ass.


[09-Feb-21 07:25 PM] BurntZebra#8147
since it doesnt need to stick around to check stuff


[09-Feb-21 07:25 PM] Coconut#8762
Spritz is good


[09-Feb-21 07:26 PM] BurntZebra#8147
spritz is not great


[09-Feb-21 07:26 PM] Coconut#8762
Those three claims all hold the same weight


[09-Feb-21 07:26 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i mean grookey existing makes spritzee a mediocre choice to begin with


[09-Feb-21 07:27 PM] BurntZebra#8147
since it means youre not running koffing/foongus


[09-Feb-21 07:30 PM] tazz#1609
i dont see why we can't suspect woobat soon, most of the council is for it


[09-Feb-21 07:31 PM] BurntZebra#8147
id prefer suspecting grookey


[09-Feb-21 07:31 PM] BurntZebra#8147
but it seems im in the minority


[09-Feb-21 07:32 PM] BurntZebra#8147
woobat is pretty below average without grookey and the precedent seems to be to ban the thing that supports


[09-Feb-21 07:33 PM] Coconut#8762
correct


[09-Feb-21 07:33 PM] BurntZebra#8147
baton pass got banned, not the things receiving boosts, dugtrio got banned, not the things paired with dugtrio


[09-Feb-21 07:33 PM] BurntZebra#8147
if mag drag was banworthy in some gen, presumably mag would be banned instead of all the dragons


[09-Feb-21 07:33 PM] Pablo#5523
well


[09-Feb-21 07:33 PM] Pablo#5523
an infinte amount of mons could receive bp boosts and get broken


[09-Feb-21 07:33 PM] BurntZebra#8147
weather seems to be the thing that sort of goes against that precedent


[09-Feb-21 07:33 PM] Pablo#5523
and dugtrio also supported half of the metagame


[09-Feb-21 07:34 PM] Coconut#8762
that being said, grookey is overpowered independently


[09-Feb-21 07:34 PM] BurntZebra#8147
although bw is a train wreck imo


[09-Feb-21 07:34 PM] BurntZebra#8147
and we tried banning vulpix here until manual sun was also extremely powerful


[09-Feb-21 07:34 PM] tazz#1609
coco thats a minority opinion in this chat though


[09-Feb-21 07:34 PM] tazz#1609
and among the top players i know outside this chat


[09-Feb-21 07:35 PM] BurntZebra#8147
half of the council didnt even want to suspect vullaby


[09-Feb-21 07:35 PM] BurntZebra#8147
and a majority of people voted to ban vull


[09-Feb-21 07:36 PM] BurntZebra#8147
so it wouldnt be the first time that the council opinion is factually incorrect


[09-Feb-21 07:36 PM] BurntZebra#8147
or i guess not factually, but not based in reality


[09-Feb-21 07:36 PM] Pablo#5523
if it was incorrect vullaby would have been banned


[09-Feb-21 07:36 PM] Coconut#8762
I generally trust my council but woobat on paper is a bad suspect


[09-Feb-21 07:36 PM] Coconut#8762
if you want to tackle cheese in general


[09-Feb-21 07:36 PM] Coconut#8762
there's significantly better ways


[09-Feb-21 07:36 PM] BurntZebra#8147
anti suspect vull was an awful take


[09-Feb-21 07:37 PM] BurntZebra#8147
suspecting and not getting 60% to ban is fine


[09-Feb-21 07:37 PM] Coconut#8762
anti suspect was truly a bad take, anti ban is reasonable.


[09-Feb-21 07:37 PM] Pablo#5523
Wrong


[09-Feb-21 07:37 PM] tazz#1609
why are we even here if you're just going to unilaterally say bat is a bad suspec


[09-Feb-21 07:37 PM] tazz#1609
when most of us want it banned


[09-Feb-21 07:37 PM] Coconut#8762
If that's what we're going with then I'm not going to stop us


[09-Feb-21 07:37 PM] BurntZebra#8147
does banning woobat even solve the problems

[09-Feb-21 07:37 PM] Coconut#8762
but like


[09-Feb-21 07:37 PM] Coconut#8762
it's such a bad suspect


[09-Feb-21 07:38 PM] Coconut#8762
it doesn't even fix the inherent problem of cheese


[09-Feb-21 07:38 PM] Coconut#8762
these dogshit screen teams are still going to be used without the bat, and will still be successful


[09-Feb-21 07:38 PM] BurntZebra#8147
people will just replace woobat with np vull


(Quoting [09-Feb-21 07:21 PM] Luthier#3120
that mon is holding the tier together w vullaby)
[09-Feb-21 07:39 PM] levi#6206
this is wrong


[09-Feb-21 07:39 PM] BurntZebra#8147
and you have to manage to kill a vull behind screens without activating weak armor


[09-Feb-21 07:39 PM] BurntZebra#8147
or getting flinched


[09-Feb-21 07:39 PM] Luthier#3120
ok


[09-Feb-21 07:39 PM] levi#6206
every mon you can name right now that we use grookey for rn, we were fine with in the past


[09-Feb-21 07:39 PM] Fiend#8794
i for one think we should ban natu, solely to hurt ant's feelings


[09-Feb-21 07:39 PM] Luthier#3120
scraggy.


[09-Feb-21 07:39 PM] Luthier#3120
we were not fine w scraggy


[09-Feb-21 07:39 PM] levi#6206
grookey holds much more mons back than it supports


[09-Feb-21 07:39 PM] Luthier#3120
until people discovered LO grookey


[09-Feb-21 07:39 PM] BurntZebra#8147
how is scraggy better now than sm lc


[09-Feb-21 07:39 PM] levi#6206
we literally were fine w scraggy in every other iteration of lc


[09-Feb-21 07:39 PM] Coconut#8762
scraggy's not problematic rn


[09-Feb-21 07:39 PM] levi#6206
bc spritzee was viable


[09-Feb-21 07:39 PM] Luthier#3120
i said


[09-Feb-21 07:40 PM] Luthier#3120
until people discovered LO grookey


[09-Feb-21 07:40 PM] BurntZebra#8147
spritzees mostly not viable because of grookey


[09-Feb-21 07:40 PM] levi#6206
the reason spritzee isnt viable rn is because balance isnt viable


[09-Feb-21 07:40 PM] Coconut#8762
spritzee's still viable!


[09-Feb-21 07:40 PM] Pablo#5523
hows balance not viable!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


[09-Feb-21 07:40 PM] BurntZebra#8147
balance breaker vullaby 😢


[09-Feb-21 07:40 PM] Coconut#8762
it's just limited in team structure


[09-Feb-21 07:40 PM] Pablo#5523
half of the teams are mienfoo onix poison vulla filler filler


[09-Feb-21 07:40 PM] levi#6206
anyways "holds the tier together" is a poor argument in general and its especially bad for this meta


[09-Feb-21 07:40 PM] Luthier#3120
serene went like


[09-Feb-21 07:40 PM] Luthier#3120
7-2 in snake


[09-Feb-21 07:40 PM] Luthier#3120
using that archetype


[09-Feb-21 07:40 PM] Coconut#8762
agree with levi


[09-Feb-21 07:40 PM] levi#6206
seeing how its one of the least diverse lcs we've seen in a while


[09-Feb-21 07:41 PM] Luthier#3120
so levi


[09-Feb-21 07:41 PM] Luthier#3120
u think we should grookey


[09-Feb-21 07:41 PM] Luthier#3120
and u think the tier will be balanced?


[09-Feb-21 07:41 PM] levi#6206
if this is how vull and grook are holding the tier together then they rlly need to go


[09-Feb-21 07:41 PM] levi#6206
i think banning grookey would be completely doable


[09-Feb-21 07:41 PM] levi#6206
i just think woobat is more broken


[09-Feb-21 07:41 PM] Luthier#3120
if no what would u propose to do next


[09-Feb-21 07:41 PM] levi#6206
i agree with a grookey suspect but i agree with a woobat suspect a lot more


[09-Feb-21 07:41 PM] BurntZebra#8147
are there any suggestions other than grookey or woobat suspect


[09-Feb-21 07:41 PM] Coconut#8762
gonna let it sit for a bit


[09-Feb-21 07:41 PM] levi#6206
i think woobat is the key piece that makes cheese strats able to just win


(Zebra compares Vullaby to Trump + related discussion)


[09-Feb-21 07:42 PM] Coconut#8762
anyway


[09-Feb-21 07:42 PM] Coconut#8762
we're not deciding on anything right away


[09-Feb-21 07:43 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i suppose outside of the grookey+woobat dynamic of cheese


[09-Feb-21 07:43 PM] Coconut#8762
and if people are all on board with woobat


[09-Feb-21 07:43 PM] Coconut#8762
despite how bad of a suspect it'd be


[09-Feb-21 07:43 PM] Coconut#8762
we'll do it


[09-Feb-21 07:43 PM] BurntZebra#8147
you still have to run a bunch of stuff to not get screwed over, just like sm lc


[09-Feb-21 07:43 PM] BurntZebra#8147
timburr > foo for the set up stuff


[09-Feb-21 07:44 PM] BurntZebra#8147
im like 80% confident woobat will get banned and then people will slap np vull over the slot


[09-Feb-21 07:44 PM] BurntZebra#8147
and call it a day


[09-Feb-21 07:44 PM] Coconut#8762
also frees up the grookey slot


[09-Feb-21 07:45 PM] Coconut#8762
to be whatever you really want it to be


[09-Feb-21 07:45 PM] BurntZebra#8147
grookey is still pretty viable to chip stuff


[09-Feb-21 07:45 PM] BurntZebra#8147
and sort of supports tyrunt


[09-Feb-21 07:45 PM] Coconut#8762
yea but I can feasibly make it


[09-Feb-21 07:45 PM] Coconut#8762
scarf foo


[09-Feb-21 07:45 PM] Coconut#8762
maybe timburr


[09-Feb-21 07:45 PM] Coconut#8762
or a different breaker


[09-Feb-21 07:45 PM] BurntZebra#8147
timburr on cheese seems bad


[09-Feb-21 07:45 PM] Coconut#8762
idk just thinking outloud


[09-Feb-21 07:46 PM] Coconut#8762
scarf foo might be


[09-Feb-21 07:46 PM] Coconut#8762
really goo


[09-Feb-21 07:46 PM] BurntZebra#8147
admittedly banning grook will probably cause an increase in stuff like shellder and stuff


[09-Feb-21 07:46 PM] BurntZebra#8147
so youd still have to go out of your way to deal with cheese


[09-Feb-21 07:46 PM] Coconut#8762
shellder and oma do get a lot better


(Quoting [09-Feb-21 07:43 PM] Coconut#8762
despite how bad of a suspect it'd be)
[09-Feb-21 07:46 PM] levi#6206
can you summarize why you believe this to be the case


[09-Feb-21 07:46 PM] levi#6206
i can try to address it


[09-Feb-21 07:46 PM] levi#6206
if you did so above i didnt read that carefully


[09-Feb-21 07:47 PM] BurntZebra#8147
well im sort of agreeing with coco and my stance is that a woobat ban is unlikely to fix the problem of cheese teams


[09-Feb-21 07:48 PM] levi#6206
ok


[09-Feb-21 07:48 PM] levi#6206
this was shrugs stance too i think


[09-Feb-21 07:48 PM] levi#6206
wrt suspecting screens first


[09-Feb-21 07:48 PM] levi#6206
basically i dont think cheesy structures are inherently problematic


(Quoting [09-Feb-21 07:47 PM] BurntZebra#8147
well im sort of agreeing with coco and my stance is that a woobat ban is unlikely to fix the problem of cheese teams)
[09-Feb-21 07:49 PM] Fiend#8794
i think woobat is sorta broken but also agree with this


[09-Feb-21 07:49 PM] levi#6206
i think they can be totally within the realm of balance if "standard" teams dont have to bend backward to accommodate


[09-Feb-21 07:49 PM] BurntZebra#8147
you cant really ban cheesy structures as a whole


[09-Feb-21 07:49 PM] BurntZebra#8147
unless you get really crazy with bans


[09-Feb-21 07:49 PM] levi#6206
eg xy webs, sm veils or smashspam or w.e


[09-Feb-21 07:49 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i mean we already banned veils


[09-Feb-21 07:49 PM] levi#6206
yeah


[09-Feb-21 07:49 PM] BurntZebra#8147
and sun


[09-Feb-21 07:49 PM] BurntZebra#8147
or well chloro


[09-Feb-21 07:49 PM] Shrug#7659
i mean, im willing to be a pragmatic moderate and say that if we cant do screens itself we should do woobat


[09-Feb-21 07:49 PM] Shrug#7659
if i had to pick between the two though


[09-Feb-21 07:49 PM] levi#6206
but basically i think a woobat suspect is justifiable on the grounds that


[09-Feb-21 07:50 PM] levi#6206
without woobat, cheese is brought down to a reasonable level


[09-Feb-21 07:50 PM] BurntZebra#8147
are we hoping that np vull is significantly worse than woobat


[09-Feb-21 07:50 PM] levi#6206
like i think you can reasonably fit scraggy runt etc hard-ish checks where you cant for woobat


[09-Feb-21 07:50 PM] Shrug#7659
im also fully aware that u cant get rid of cheese stuff entirely


[09-Feb-21 07:50 PM] Shrug#7659
i would want it reduced to jank-type stuff though


[09-Feb-21 07:50 PM] Shrug#7659
that u cant just consistently load + roll for mu like u can with some webs eras  / screens now


[09-Feb-21 07:50 PM] tazz#1609
i think cheese gets quite a bit worse w/o bat


[09-Feb-21 07:51 PM] BurntZebra#8147
cheese also gets worse without grookey


[09-Feb-21 07:51 PM] BurntZebra#8147
since bat becomes obsolete


[09-Feb-21 07:51 PM] BurntZebra#8147
and you remove a 17 speed taunter with stab priority


[09-Feb-21 07:51 PM] Shrug#7659
but grookey has redeeming metagame value


[09-Feb-21 07:51 PM] BurntZebra#8147
that supports multiple other team members


[09-Feb-21 07:51 PM] tazz#1609
not necessarily, grook is one of the strongest anti cheese mons


(Quoting [09-Feb-21 07:50 PM] levi#6206
without woobat, cheese is brought down to a reasonable level)
[09-Feb-21 07:51 PM] Coconut#8762
see I don't really agree with that


[09-Feb-21 07:52 PM] Coconut#8762
I think cheese just needs to be more diverse


[09-Feb-21 07:52 PM] Coconut#8762
which could even make it more difficult


[09-Feb-21 07:52 PM] Shrug#7659
i would also be skeptical but it wouldnt hurt


[09-Feb-21 07:52 PM] Shrug#7659
imo


[09-Feb-21 07:52 PM] Coconut#8762
to properly beat


[09-Feb-21 07:52 PM] Coconut#8762
because now instead I can lose to SD pawn behind screens


(Quoting [09-Feb-21 07:51 PM] BurntZebra#8147
cheese also gets worse without grookey)
[09-Feb-21 07:52 PM] levi#6206
im ok with a grookey suspect too but i think that if we treat them as individual abusers


[09-Feb-21 07:52 PM] levi#6206
woobats much more problematic than grookey rn


[09-Feb-21 07:52 PM] Coconut#8762
instead of grookey and woobat


[09-Feb-21 07:53 PM] levi#6206
sd pawn is surely more doable than woobat is


[09-Feb-21 07:53 PM] Shrug#7659
my thinking is that if the webs / screens setters can consistently beat the removers at the set it'll basically always be problematic in lc


[09-Feb-21 07:53 PM] Coconut#8762
Sure


[09-Feb-21 07:53 PM] Shrug#7659
which it can


[09-Feb-21 07:53 PM] levi#6206
i think scraggy is the next most crazy screen abuser


[09-Feb-21 07:53 PM] Coconut#8762
but is everything better


[09-Feb-21 07:53 PM] Coconut#8762
than woobat


[09-Feb-21 07:53 PM] Coconut#8762
like 2 slots


[09-Feb-21 07:53 PM] Coconut#8762
is there a two slot combination


[09-Feb-21 07:53 PM] Shrug#7659
giving up turns to get in, take them off, and get out against either cheese setup is a loss


[09-Feb-21 07:53 PM] Coconut#8762
that beats woobat


[09-Feb-21 07:53 PM] Coconut#8762
and its support mon


[09-Feb-21 07:53 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i dont see a point in treating them as individual abusers, obviously woobats pretty unviable without grookey unless you run it on webs


[09-Feb-21 07:54 PM] levi#6206
we treat them as individual mons in the sense that like


[09-Feb-21 07:54 PM] levi#6206
if the problem is grookbat


[09-Feb-21 07:54 PM] Coconut#8762
natu's not a good option either


[09-Feb-21 07:54 PM] Coconut#8762
because abra exists


[09-Feb-21 07:54 PM] levi#6206
and grookeys not broken on its own, then we should definitely tackle woobat


[09-Feb-21 07:54 PM] Shrug#7659
abra + star would do the same job


[09-Feb-21 07:54 PM] BurntZebra#8147
eh


[09-Feb-21 07:54 PM] BurntZebra#8147
they lack some utility


[09-Feb-21 07:54 PM] Coconut#8762
idk


[09-Feb-21 07:54 PM] BurntZebra#8147
no magic bounce to block defog (abra can taunt)


[09-Feb-21 07:54 PM] Coconut#8762
staryu's got flip turn


[09-Feb-21 07:54 PM] Coconut#8762
abra's got taunt


[09-Feb-21 07:55 PM] Coconut#8762
they're not quite the same


[09-Feb-21 07:55 PM] Coconut#8762
but they're close


[09-Feb-21 07:55 PM] BurntZebra#8147
spending a turn to block defog is worse


[09-Feb-21 07:55 PM] BurntZebra#8147
and sometimes people went hard natu on vullaby to block defog


[09-Feb-21 07:55 PM] Coconut#8762
SubSD pawn


(Quoting [09-Feb-21 07:51 PM] Coconut#8762
see I don't really agree with that)
[09-Feb-21 07:55 PM] levi#6206
also im not totally confident in my claim either, i just think its a reasonable enough guess to go for a woobat suspect first


[09-Feb-21 07:55 PM] Coconut#8762
or even RP pawn


[09-Feb-21 07:55 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i mean yeah if the choices are do nothing, suspect woobat, or suspect grook


[09-Feb-21 07:55 PM] Coconut#8762
SubRP


[09-Feb-21 07:55 PM] levi#6206
i rlly dont think sd pawn needs to be in the equation, that set hasnt been viable in yrs


[09-Feb-21 07:55 PM] BurntZebra#8147
then sure i prefer woobat > doing nothing


[09-Feb-21 07:56 PM] BurntZebra#8147
but thats a low bar


[09-Feb-21 07:56 PM] levi#6206
i think the potentially broken setup sweepers can p much be limited to woobat scraggy vull for now


[09-Feb-21 07:57 PM] BurntZebra#8147
what keeps tyrunt in check? just timburr mach punch once screens are down?


[09-Feb-21 07:57 PM] Coconut#8762
tyrunt's pretty nasty


[09-Feb-21 07:57 PM] Coconut#8762
on that team


[09-Feb-21 07:57 PM] Shrug#7659
tyrunt isnt broken without that shit though


[09-Feb-21 07:57 PM] Shrug#7659
viable


[09-Feb-21 07:57 PM] Shrug#7659
but not broken


[09-Feb-21 07:57 PM] Coconut#8762
???


[09-Feb-21 07:57 PM] Coconut#8762
replace what you just wrote


[09-Feb-21 07:57 PM] Coconut#8762
with woobat


[09-Feb-21 07:57 PM] Shrug#7659
yea id be fine banning the broken elements?


[09-Feb-21 07:57 PM] levi#6206
tyrunts held back by not having ohko power mainly


[09-Feb-21 07:58 PM] tazz#1609
tyrunts nowhere in the realm of being broken


[09-Feb-21 07:58 PM] levi#6206
like if psych or blast doesnt hit se then it cant rlly kill


[09-Feb-21 07:58 PM] Coconut#8762
tyrunt oneshots the poisons


[09-Feb-21 07:58 PM] tazz#1609
even on screens


[09-Feb-21 07:58 PM] Coconut#8762
what more could you ask for


[09-Feb-21 07:58 PM] levi#6206
thats where woobat and scrag differentiate themselves


[09-Feb-21 07:58 PM] BurntZebra#8147
idk if that standard holds up


[09-Feb-21 07:58 PM] Coconut#8762
even something like porygon


[09-Feb-21 07:58 PM] BurntZebra#8147
like scrag doesnt ohko 15 def foo at +1


[09-Feb-21 07:58 PM] Coconut#8762
could probably be really good on screens


[09-Feb-21 07:59 PM] levi#6206
for scraggy you have one chance to live an attack


[09-Feb-21 07:59 PM] levi#6206
theres no option to sack


[09-Feb-21 07:59 PM] Coconut#8762
tyrunt eats hits too


[09-Feb-21 07:59 PM] levi#6206
unless u have spritzee (but thats bad rn)


[09-Feb-21 07:59 PM] BurntZebra#8147
weak armor onix on non close combat attacks from tyrunt is sort of decent


[09-Feb-21 07:59 PM] BurntZebra#8147
assuming grassy terrain isnt up


[09-Feb-21 07:59 PM] BurntZebra#8147
and you dont hard onix on a turn when tyrunt dd's


[09-Feb-21 07:59 PM] levi#6206
well everything lives hits behind screens but its still a sliding scale from woobat to dratini or w.e bc it comes at the significant cost of having to get screens up first


[09-Feb-21 08:00 PM] Coconut#8762
do not strawman tyrunt to be equal to dratini


[09-Feb-21 08:00 PM] Coconut#8762
LOL


[09-Feb-21 08:00 PM] BurntZebra#8147
lmao


[09-Feb-21 08:00 PM] levi#6206
idt tyrunt is too overbearing for whats effectively a 2 mon core


[09-Feb-21 08:00 PM] levi#6206
nah im not saying theyre equivalent at all


[09-Feb-21 08:00 PM] levi#6206
im saying tyrunts somewhere on that sliding scale


[09-Feb-21 08:00 PM] levi#6206
obviously its way closer to woobat than to dratini


[09-Feb-21 08:00 PM] Fiend#8794
tyrunt is pretty acceptable


[09-Feb-21 08:00 PM] Shrug#7659
we're going to ban 4 mons and have porygon shellder screens getting dubs


[09-Feb-21 08:01 PM] Coconut#8762
ugh


[09-Feb-21 08:01 PM] Fiend#8794
you say that like screens now dont get dubs


[09-Feb-21 08:01 PM] Coconut#8762
I hate this


[09-Feb-21 08:01 PM] Coconut#8762
because going for reflect and light screen at the same time


[09-Feb-21 08:01 PM] levi#6206
thats possible shrug ya i just dont think its the likely case


[09-Feb-21 08:01 PM] Coconut#8762
is just as stupid


[09-Feb-21 08:01 PM] Coconut#8762
as going for woobat


[09-Feb-21 08:01 PM] BurntZebra#8147
@levi can you refresh my memory on why me and you were 2 of the 4 people who voted dnb on chlorophyll suspect


[09-Feb-21 08:02 PM] Fiend#8794
levi wanted saur


[09-Feb-21 08:03 PM] BurntZebra#8147
yea i guess i didnt agree with chloro suspect so i voted in defiance of it


[09-Feb-21 08:03 PM] Coconut#8762
I hate that so much but whatever it's in the past


[09-Feb-21 08:04 PM] levi#6206
yeah saur made more sense


[09-Feb-21 08:04 PM] levi#6206
manual cherry sun had no chance of being broken


[09-Feb-21 08:04 PM] Fiend#8794
saur was the 2nd rate option


[09-Feb-21 08:04 PM] levi#6206
i dont think the ridiculous difference in viability between auto and manual was made clear


[09-Feb-21 08:05 PM] Shrug#7659
the problem with lc is that the best metagame bans would be the dumbest policy ones


[09-Feb-21 08:05 PM] Fiend#8794
i mean the want to ban heat rock or w.e


[09-Feb-21 08:05 PM] Fiend#8794
was the real issue


[09-Feb-21 08:08 PM] BurntZebra#8147
our policy is so inconsistent anyways that we may as well chuck it


[09-Feb-21 08:09 PM] Coconut#8762
our policy is actually pretty solid


[09-Feb-21 08:09 PM] BurntZebra#8147
well our following of the policy is inconsistent


[09-Feb-21 08:09 PM] Coconut#8762
we've stayed really consistent


[09-Feb-21 08:09 PM] Coconut#8762
porygon instead of z-conversion


[09-Feb-21 08:10 PM] Fiend#8794
i think we've been fine


[09-Feb-21 08:10 PM] Coconut#8762
vulpix first


[09-Feb-21 08:10 PM] Fiend#8794
you can arg that some of the policy is dumb or w.e as levi more or less does


[09-Feb-21 08:10 PM] BurntZebra#8147
banning chloro is bad policy


[09-Feb-21 08:10 PM] Coconut#8762
yes but it wasn't the preferred option


[09-Feb-21 08:10 PM] Coconut#8762
we did basically everything


[09-Feb-21 08:10 PM] Fiend#8794
well it's better than heatrock


[09-Feb-21 08:11 PM] Coconut#8762
and I mean everything


[09-Feb-21 08:11 PM] Coconut#8762
to prevent that


[09-Feb-21 08:11 PM] Coconut#8762
and we didn't ban the non-broken item


[09-Feb-21 08:11 PM] Fiend#8794
and thats what i rmr half the convo being about


[09-Feb-21 08:11 PM] BurntZebra#8147
we just banned the non-broken ability instead


[09-Feb-21 08:11 PM] BurntZebra#8147
regen suspect when


[09-Feb-21 08:11 PM] levi#6206
we didnt do everything bc we didnt ban bulbasaur


[09-Feb-21 08:11 PM] Coconut#8762
the ability was the problem


[09-Feb-21 08:11 PM] Coconut#8762
okay yes we could have banned bulbasaur too I suppose


[09-Feb-21 08:11 PM] Coconut#8762
but that would have been dumb


[09-Feb-21 08:11 PM] BurntZebra#8147
cherubi wasnt a problem, chloro cottonee wasnt a problem


[09-Feb-21 08:11 PM] levi#6206
idk how u could see manual cherry sun and think yep, thats gonna be broken


[09-Feb-21 08:11 PM] Coconut#8762
cherry + something else


[09-Feb-21 08:12 PM] Coconut#8762
could have been


[09-Feb-21 08:12 PM] levi#6206
absolutely not


[09-Feb-21 08:12 PM] Coconut#8762
it's like


[09-Feb-21 08:12 PM] Coconut#8762
a small chance


[09-Feb-21 08:12 PM] Coconut#8762
but it's possible


[09-Feb-21 08:12 PM] Coconut#8762
whatever, this is behind us anyway


[09-Feb-21 08:12 PM] levi#6206
if it was a small chance then the policy move was to ban bulbasaur


[09-Feb-21 08:12 PM] levi#6206
all the same


[09-Feb-21 08:13 PM] BurntZebra#8147
suspecting woobat instead of grook is bad policy too imo


[09-Feb-21 08:13 PM] levi#6206
idts


[09-Feb-21 08:13 PM] BurntZebra#8147
although thats less clear cut


[09-Feb-21 08:13 PM] Fiend#8794
i think they r different policy objectives


[09-Feb-21 08:13 PM] Fiend#8794
or like some terms of different principals


[09-Feb-21 08:14 PM] levi#6206
like as long as the justification that a post-woobat cheese would be manageable exists and is at least reasonably strong


[09-Feb-21 08:14 PM] levi#6206
idt its a policy concern


[09-Feb-21 08:14 PM] Coconut#8762
I'm also willing to wait a bit more


[09-Feb-21 08:14 PM] Coconut#8762
to see how grookey develops


[09-Feb-21 08:14 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i mean thats an unproven justification


[09-Feb-21 08:14 PM] BurntZebra#8147
that will probably not be true


[09-Feb-21 08:14 PM] Coconut#8762
and see if it's more or less of a viable option


[09-Feb-21 08:14 PM] BurntZebra#8147
if a woobat suspect/ban happens


[09-Feb-21 08:15 PM] Fiend#8794
idt i would vote ban for grook rn


[09-Feb-21 08:15 PM] Fiend#8794
i would smash a ban for bat tho


[09-Feb-21 08:15 PM] BurntZebra#8147
id vote ban on anything


[09-Feb-21 08:15 PM] Coconut#8762
I like the state of our meta bar some dumb cheese


[09-Feb-21 08:15 PM] Coconut#8762
but I tend to do well in more limited metagames


[09-Feb-21 08:16 PM] BurntZebra#8147
same problem as sm, although at least webs are not as common in ss anymore


[09-Feb-21 08:16 PM] BurntZebra#8147
sm is like hm do i wanna prep for balance, webs, or veils


[09-Feb-21 08:17 PM] BurntZebra#8147
and you can prep for 1.5x of them


[09-Feb-21 08:27 PM] Luthier#3120
If u wanna go for light screen


[09-Feb-21 08:27 PM] Luthier#3120
Then I g u can do like light clay


[09-Feb-21 08:27 PM] Luthier#3120
But that’s just a nerf it


[09-Feb-21 08:27 PM] Luthier#3120
It’ll still v good


[09-Feb-21 08:27 PM] Coconut#8762
uggh I hate that a light clay suspect is a viable option that I like the most


[09-Feb-21 08:28 PM] BurntZebra#8147
light clay has the same issues as heat rock though


[09-Feb-21 08:28 PM] Fiend#8794
we are not touching screens right now are we?


[09-Feb-21 08:28 PM] Coconut#8762
yes but


[09-Feb-21 08:28 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i guess screen setters are more varied than sun setters


[09-Feb-21 08:28 PM] Coconut#8762
there's no one mon that


[09-Feb-21 08:28 PM] Coconut#8762
runs screens


[09-Feb-21 08:28 PM] Coconut#8762
like there would be a sun setter


[09-Feb-21 08:28 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i mean heat rock could be run on riolu/diglett/onix


[09-Feb-21 08:28 PM] BurntZebra#8147
or just on a chlorophyll user


[09-Feb-21 08:29 PM] Coconut#8762
and they were


[09-Feb-21 08:29 PM] Coconut#8762
we could also consider


[09-Feb-21 08:29 PM] Coconut#8762
unbanning alolapix


[09-Feb-21 08:29 PM] Coconut#8762
if we get rid of light clay


[09-Feb-21 08:29 PM] BurntZebra#8147
can you list more than 4 screen setters that are actually good


[09-Feb-21 08:29 PM] Coconut#8762
well we banned one


[09-Feb-21 08:29 PM] Coconut#8762
natu staryu abra


[09-Feb-21 08:29 PM] Coconut#8762
amaura


[09-Feb-21 08:29 PM] BurntZebra#8147
eh


[09-Feb-21 08:29 PM] Coconut#8762
probably more that are viable


[09-Feb-21 08:29 PM] BurntZebra#8147
staryu/amaura are a lot worse


[09-Feb-21 08:30 PM] Coconut#8762
staryu's really not bad


[09-Feb-21 08:30 PM] Coconut#8762
it's got twave and a pivot move that happens to be stab


[09-Feb-21 08:30 PM] Coconut#8762
it forces vull to get para'd


[09-Feb-21 08:30 PM] Coconut#8762
and doesn't lose to it at the same time


[10-Feb-21 03:19 PM] Plas#7053
Idk how I feel about grook being broken or not but I'm still pro ban woobat. Think it's presence is very unhealthy even if the usage is low and the collateral for getting rid of it is next to nothing. Also still think scrag is pretty goofy. I think it is one of the primary reasons screens and webs are so consistent and similar to woobat the collateral of other mons being broken would be next to nothing but idt it's a priority


[10-Feb-21 03:20 PM] Plas#7053
what shrug said that was like
"the problem with lc is that the best metagame bans would be the dumbest policy ones"
basically how I feel. I'd love to ban like light clay or simple but thats not happening obviously


[10-Feb-21 03:21 PM] BurntZebra#8147
the collateral argument makes sense but the collateral argument also works for things that go against policy


[10-Feb-21 03:21 PM] BurntZebra#8147
complex bans by their nature have basically zero collateral


[10-Feb-21 03:23 PM] Plas#7053
what would the correct complex ban even be in theory?


[10-Feb-21 03:23 PM] Plas#7053
light clay groobat webs are still a problem


[10-Feb-21 03:23 PM] Plas#7053
web screens are still a problem


[10-Feb-21 03:24 PM] BurntZebra#8147
in this scenario, idk


[10-Feb-21 03:24 PM] BurntZebra#8147
sort of depends what you think the most problematic element is


[10-Feb-21 03:24 PM] Luthier#3120
nope complex bans are apparently never going to be the solution


[10-Feb-21 03:25 PM] Luthier#3120
even when they are in theory the best solution


[10-Feb-21 03:25 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i wasnt saying they were


[10-Feb-21 03:25 PM] Luthier#3120
which still blows my mind


[10-Feb-21 03:25 PM] Luthier#3120
o i wasnt targeting ur argument


[10-Feb-21 03:25 PM] Luthier#3120
i was just saying


[10-Feb-21 03:25 PM] BurntZebra#8147
ah


[10-Feb-21 03:25 PM] Luthier#3120
how i hate the complex ban policy


[10-Feb-21 03:25 PM] BurntZebra#8147
the only "complex" ban i would have liked was with porygon in sm lc


[10-Feb-21 03:25 PM] Luthier#3120
pain


[10-Feb-21 03:27 PM] Plas#7053
I agree complex ban policy is dumb


[10-Feb-21 03:27 PM] Plas#7053
pain


[10-Feb-21 04:59 PM] levi#6206
I think it’s fine


[10-Feb-21 04:59 PM] levi#6206
Grookey isn’t good or healthy to the meta


[10-Feb-21 05:00 PM] levi#6206
If anything it’s limiting bc it’s a pure rkiller on otherwise decent but not broken mons like smashers


[10-Feb-21 05:00 PM] levi#6206
There’s no need to bend backwards w a complex ban to preserve a mon like that


[10-Feb-21 06:35 PM] BurntZebra#8147
complex ban use of grassy terrain+grassy seed on woobat


[10-Feb-21 06:47 PM] Coconut#8762
we're not doing a complex ban


[10-Feb-21 06:48 PM] Coconut#8762
I don't think the problematic element of the meta is woobat


[10-Feb-21 06:48 PM] Coconut#8762
I think it's cheese as a whole


[10-Feb-21 06:48 PM] Coconut#8762
which I'm moreso trying to gauge if people agree


[10-Feb-21 06:48 PM] BurntZebra#8147
complex ban discussion was a meme


[10-Feb-21 06:48 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i dont think anyone actually was advocating for it


[10-Feb-21 06:48 PM] BurntZebra#8147
well i guess luthier/plas were sorta


[10-Feb-21 06:48 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i dont want to speak on behalf of them though


[10-Feb-21 07:03 PM] starmaster#8286
yea cheese as a whole is the issue but there’s no real clear way to tackle it


[10-Feb-21 07:04 PM] starmaster#8286
i think woobat is probably broken


[10-Feb-21 07:04 PM] starmaster#8286
if we’re suspecting a mon I’d do that before grookey


[10-Feb-21 07:04 PM] starmaster#8286
however neither of those bans would actually solve the cheese issue


[10-Feb-21 07:05 PM] starmaster#8286
maybe like light clay lol.


[10-Feb-21 07:05 PM] starmaster#8286
But it’s ugly


[10-Feb-21 07:05 PM] BurntZebra#8147
are we allowed to speculate what the odds are that a woobat ban will fix anything


[10-Feb-21 07:06 PM] starmaster#8286
the purpose of tiering is to improve a meta


[10-Feb-21 07:06 PM] starmaster#8286
so yes you consider the outcomes


[10-Feb-21 07:06 PM] starmaster#8286
that’s why sm vull didn’t happen


[10-Feb-21 07:06 PM] starmaster#8286
2 months before the end of the gen


[10-Feb-21 07:08 PM] starmaster#8286
(I do think woobat should get tested regardless fwiw)


[10-Feb-21 07:08 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i feel like lc would have been in a solid ass spot if vullaby, then grookey got banned


[10-Feb-21 07:08 PM] BurntZebra#8147
alas


[10-Feb-21 07:08 PM] Coconut#8762
You can speculate that zebra


[10-Feb-21 07:09 PM] Coconut#8762
But it's got so little weight


[10-Feb-21 07:09 PM] Coconut#8762
Compared to any other opinion


[10-Feb-21 07:09 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i mean the pro woobat suspect people are arguing that a woobat ban is low collateral


[10-Feb-21 07:09 PM] BurntZebra#8147
which isnt even true if it doesnt fix the problems


[10-Feb-21 07:09 PM] starmaster#8286
Vull into grookey would shake the meta up a ton but I think screens would probably be even crazier


[10-Feb-21 07:09 PM] Coconut#8762
Like me saying all of LC is fixed with that ban


[10-Feb-21 07:09 PM] starmaster#8286
I agree itd result in a better meta overall most likely tho


[10-Feb-21 07:09 PM] Coconut#8762
Holds the same weight


[10-Feb-21 07:10 PM] Coconut#8762
I'm actually considering


[10-Feb-21 07:10 PM] BurntZebra#8147
grookey is a double edged sword


[10-Feb-21 07:10 PM] Shrug#7659
i think we need to take our time and think this through


[10-Feb-21 07:10 PM] Coconut#8762
Light Clay


[10-Feb-21 07:10 PM] BurntZebra#8147
since it enables cheese but also deals with cheese


[10-Feb-21 07:10 PM] Coconut#8762
I don't think it's a terrible option


[10-Feb-21 07:10 PM] Shrug#7659
i rlly think grookey is too hasty


[10-Feb-21 07:10 PM] Shrug#7659
i can see why it would be a good suspect


[10-Feb-21 07:11 PM] Shrug#7659
but am unconvinced that we are fully aware of what it does to the meta


[10-Feb-21 07:11 PM] Shrug#7659
to justify one right now


[10-Feb-21 07:11 PM] BurntZebra#8147
light clay seems like such a meme though, like for that to even make sense in terms of policy, the concept of 8 (7) turns of reflect/light screen has to be broken on its own


[10-Feb-21 07:11 PM] BurntZebra#8147
but it seems obvious that you have to run specific screen setters to actually have a viable team


[10-Feb-21 07:12 PM] Shrug#7659
the problem is the mega collateral there


[10-Feb-21 07:12 PM] Shrug#7659
natu is sorta w.e but abra? staryu?


[10-Feb-21 07:12 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i mean is anyone at all running abra screens atm


[10-Feb-21 07:12 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i guess reflect is sometimes a filler on abra


[10-Feb-21 07:12 PM] BurntZebra#8147
but its not on light clay abra


[10-Feb-21 07:13 PM] Shrug#7659
i think natu outclasses it


[10-Feb-21 07:13 PM] Shrug#7659
but


[10-Feb-21 07:13 PM] Shrug#7659
abra is a 95% substitute


[10-Feb-21 07:14 PM] BurntZebra#8147
abra has to decrease its speed or special attack a fair amount to live stuff like vull knock off w/ reflect up


[10-Feb-21 07:15 PM] BurntZebra#8147
and it also has to spend a turn taunting to block hazards/defog


[10-Feb-21 07:16 PM] Shrug#7659
i mean, would screens abra even attack


[10-Feb-21 07:16 PM] Shrug#7659
u could prolly rock with mostly defensive and let the natural speed work for it


[10-Feb-21 07:17 PM] BurntZebra#8147
well i havent seen screens abra in high level play so im a skeptic


[10-Feb-21 07:17 PM] BurntZebra#8147
but lets say abra is 25% worse than natu as a screen setter due to lack of magic bounce/worse bulk


[10-Feb-21 07:17 PM] BurntZebra#8147
maybe thats enough of a nerf to screens


[10-Feb-21 07:18 PM] BurntZebra#8147
although messing around with screens doesnt really affect grook+woobat combo that much, unless woobat is more reliant on screens than i initially thought


[10-Feb-21 07:29 PM] Coconut#8762
Why would I run Abra over Natu right now?


[10-Feb-21 07:29 PM] Coconut#8762
I can see a niche for Staryu


[10-Feb-21 07:29 PM] Coconut#8762
In that it doesn't lose to both defoggers


[10-Feb-21 07:35 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i mean hypothetically if we just banned natu and if all the other screen users are 25% worse than natu


[10-Feb-21 07:35 PM] BurntZebra#8147
maybe thats enough to fix cheese


[10-Feb-21 09:25 PM] levi#6206
my issue with light clay is that i rlly doubt it solves the issue at hand


[10-Feb-21 09:25 PM] levi#6206
seeing how almost none of the best setup sweepers actually need more than one turn to set up


[10-Feb-21 09:25 PM] levi#6206
runt sometimes needs 2


[10-Feb-21 09:26 PM] levi#6206
light clay makes it more likely that multiple sweepers can set up b2b but that doesnt actually reduce the mu issues that are the concern here


[10-Feb-21 09:26 PM] levi#6206
i think a bad policy option could work but like itd probably be banning a single screen or sth


[10-Feb-21 09:26 PM] levi#6206
and i would prefer woobat still


[10-Feb-21 09:27 PM] levi#6206
i guess light clay makes the screens archetype worse but idk id rather just ban mons to make it worse at that pt


[10-Feb-21 09:27 PM] levi#6206
like its still not making the archetype inherently less cheesy


[10-Feb-21 10:05 PM] BurntZebra#8147
Does woobat even need screens


[10-Feb-21 10:05 PM] BurntZebra#8147
Like it goes to +2 def immediately


[10-Feb-21 10:06 PM] BurntZebra#8147
and in 1 turn it goes to +2 sp def


[10-Feb-21 10:06 PM] tazz#1609
we are not suspecting light clay lmao


[10-Feb-21 10:06 PM] BurntZebra#8147
imo a natu suspect makes more sense than light clay


[10-Feb-21 10:07 PM] BurntZebra#8147
and even a natu suspect is pretty bad


[10-Feb-21 10:07 PM] BurntZebra#8147
since its natu


[10-Feb-21 10:09 PM] Pablo#5523
it is time to stop


[10-Feb-21 10:10 PM] tazz#1609
We shouldnt even be considering these things yeah


[10-Feb-21 10:11 PM] tazz#1609
natu/screens would be dumb


[11-Feb-21 10:12 AM] Shrug#7659
I would like to see someone make the counter ideological argument


[11-Feb-21 10:13 AM] Shrug#7659
It’s a bit annoying having ppl be like “well we can’t ban these specific things. Looks like we have no recourse and need to consider seeing this dogshit forever”. Someone make the counter case that we should accept the current level of fishing teams.


[11-Feb-21 10:16 AM] BurntZebra#8147
pablo taking the hard stance on not doing anything in LC, despite not having played LC in 6 months


[11-Feb-21 10:16 AM] BurntZebra#8147
what a brave stance


[11-Feb-21 11:54 AM] tazz#1609
fishing teams take a huge hit from woobat being banned, i think its dumb to get rid of fishing as a whole when we know that one element in particular is too restricting to prep for


[21-Feb-21 09:06 PM] starmaster#8286
if we do woobat or smth it should be fairly soon


[21-Feb-21 09:06 PM] starmaster#8286
we wanna do it b4 slam


[21-Feb-21 09:06 PM] starmaster#8286
we have like a month but ya


[21-Feb-21 09:07 PM] Luthier#3120
^


[21-Feb-21 09:08 PM] LilyAC#7887
ban woobat


[21-Feb-21 09:20 PM] BurntZebra#8147
id prefer grook suspect but i guess ill compromise with woobat


[21-Feb-21 10:23 PM] Fiend#8794
idt enough of council wants a suspect of grook


[21-Feb-21 10:30 PM] Fiend#8794
if anything happens it would be woobat or a new convincing line i think


[21-Feb-21 10:30 PM] Fiend#8794
the few lower tier goons i talk to assume we will suspect woobat and think grookey is also broken tho


[21-Feb-21 10:33 PM] BurntZebra#8147
my stance is that the goal of any suspect is to make the tier better


[21-Feb-21 10:34 PM] BurntZebra#8147
and i ask myself, which one will make the tier better if it gets banned, woobat or grookey


[21-Feb-21 10:34 PM] Shrug#7659
bat