[08:59:41] ### Log session started ###
[08:59:41] Common channels for Swant [swant@freenode/staff/ikea]: @#freenode, #archlinux
[09:00:44] cswordsmanz  :  hey .. im being persistently harassed about a disability in a mainline chanel here and the channel ops refuse to do anything about it, im dislexic.. and literally every single day i partisipate in this chan users are like "go get a spell check" and whatever
[09:01:10] cSwant  :  which channel?
[09:01:15] cswordsmanz  :  like dayly derogotry comments .. and the ops in that room seem to think its just like ok to let it go on
[09:01:26] cswordsmanz  :  ##hardware
[09:01:35] Swant [swant@freenode/staff/ikea] has just joined ##hardware
[09:01:35] Common channels for Swant [swant@freenode/staff/ikea]: ##hardware, @#freenode, #archlinux
[09:04:13] cSwant  :  I'll keep an eye out, however I think that unfortunately the best option is to find a more tolerant channel
[09:07:06] cswordsmanz  :  https://imgur.com/a/PxIdlvT]
[09:07:45] cswordsmanz  :  i just changed my system over ... buit like ... on an oldedr box.. i have like 40 more instances just like that...
[09:17:04] cswordsmanz  :  Swant:  this is not the first time ti have come to free node about this ether.. and tbh, its getting to the point that since it is a mainline room on this network, and sence the content inquestion is clearly both 1) hate speach and 2 ) defamatory acording to freenodes own terms of service.. i really think that some action should be taken here
[09:41:57] cSwant  :  well I can't really do anything before I have seen it myself, we simply can't act based on user logs considering how easy they are to manipulate.
[09:45:32] cSwant  :  but is it any one or few specific people that are repeatedly doing this?
[09:45:37] cswordsmanz  :  Swant:  ok i just raised it and there is the first derogatory remark
[09:46:33] cswordsmanz  :  Swant:  see ?
[09:47:27] cSwant  :  furthermore, if you are dyslectic, I assume you have assistive technologies enabled to help you catch misspellings?
[09:47:41] cswordsmanz  :  yes
[09:48:52] cSwant  :  and likewise, for example you have made sure that KVIrc's spell-checker is properly configured? iirc it has all dictionaries turned off by default
[09:49:15] cswordsmanz  :  -_-
[09:50:01] cSwant  :  well I do have to ask because I think solving this will be a team effort that will require both sides to adapt a little
[09:51:04] cswordsmanz  :  Swant:  my position on this is its irelevent any way .. since any qualified medical profesional would tell me not to use that as it would degrade my ability to use the skill independently and evntually man vn th spll checker would be uselss but yes i do us one for the benfit of othrs anyway
[09:52:39] cswordsmanz  :  Swant:  you just saw somon in the room yell at me to "learn to read" with a chan op present ... freenode needs to take action on this
[09:55:45] cSwant  :  I don't know what doctors you have, but from my years in education we were repeatedly recommended by doctors to allow people with dyslexia to use spell-check, screen readers and screen magnifiers to train their reading and writing skills
[09:57:47] cSwant  :  it does look like this is an issue that has slowly escalated over time in ##hardware, and as I mentioned I think the solution to this requires a team effort from both sides.
[09:58:50] cswordsmanz  :  Swant:  if someone had been subject to dayly racial slurs would you call it a team effort ?
[10:00:39] cswordsmanz  :  Swant:  my stanc on this has been from the start entirely reasonable, i have not ever asked that it not be raised ever , i have asked that a person only joke about ir once before being told.. and only rase a spelling issue if something comes out genuinly unreadable , that is an entirely reasonable stance
[10:01:20] cSwant  :  I know dyslexia is a tough thing to live with, but I have noticed that you seem to check your messages to me more carefully than those you send in ##hardware because your spelling is more correct here
[10:02:54] cswordsmanz  :  i dont tho its just intermittent a word can type out one way one time and wrong the next, its just down to streaks of proberbility and the focus im able to maintain in that moment
[10:03:29] cSwant  :  so what I'm saying is that if you want to train your ability to use this skill independently as you stated above, you may actually have to put the effort in to make sure that your messages are spelled correctly before sending them
[10:04:30] cswordsmanz  :  Swant:  can we keep it on topic to the harassment please
[10:10:31] cSwant  :  absolutely, but the point I'm trying to make here is that yes, the people that are making those statements are not phrasing it in a particularly good way, and they could definitely tone it down a bit, but I'm sure that you are aware that dyslexia requires you to also put in the effort to check your spelling before sending messages.
[10:13:40] cswordsmanz  :  the content here would still be offensive and defamatory even in diferent boundry criteria if i was a second langage user or a user of some other asistive technology it would still be harassment and defamation "how good i spell" is simply irelevent here
[10:18:03] cSwant  :  yes, that are two separate things, but there are two sides to this coin: a) how do we stop the current comments you receive and b) how do we stop it from happening again
[10:21:09] cswordsmanz  :  well i would put forward that you do that the same way as you would any other mainline chanel that was sanctioing say racial or gender based hatred or anything else of that nature, 1) you disipline the users concerened 2) you put a mesure in place to ensure the chan ops continue to do so, within the bounds of reasonable and civil expenations and misunderstandings,,,
[10:22:22] cswordsmanz  :  a single instance of a misunderstanding or something i type not being understood is simple to deal with with civil conversation, a case of targeted and sustained harasment about the topic should be subject to moderation ... just like with anything else
[10:22:35] cswordsmanz  :  i think that is quite reasonable
[10:26:35] cSwant  :  yes, and it seems like this started out as civil conversation when I talk to others in the channel which then escalated, and we will have to take care of that definitely.
[10:31:35] cswordsmanz  :  Swant:  i dont have any problem explaining the problem to a new user once or twice , or reypeing things out if i fuck up and send something unreadable , but when users constatly use it in an atempt to malign credibility infront of other users, or make a dayly habbit of saying things like "learn to read" or "get a spell check" every morning that becomes unaceptable
[10:44:23] cSwant  :  yes definitely. But again, you might actually have to put in the effort to check your messages and use the spell-check and other assistive technology you say you have enabled, that way you might not have to explain it even once. Even my very rudimentary spell-checker warns on a lot of the messages I've seen you send in ##hardware
[10:49:31] cSwant  :  that seems to be the reason why this has escalated to this level. I think everyone could understand if you occasionally type something unreadable that simple tools couldn't have a chance of fixing, but they seem to be annoyed when you repeatedly make mistakes that could've been easily corrected by your client.
[10:50:28] cSwant  :  I will talk to these users about that this isn't an acceptable way of pointing that out
[10:51:12] cSwant  :  but again, I'm trying to help you here by giving you suggestions on how you can make sure new users don't start doing the same
[10:53:25] cswordsmanz  :  this sounds an awefull ot like you are saying that my not being harassed should be contingent on the use of assistive technologys , as an aside i iwould like to not of the .. roughly 0 or so other irc chans i use on a regular basis this is handeled civily and with out issue in all of them, the problem here is one of moderation becouse moderation allowed one user to make atacks on that basis others
[10:53:32] cswordsmanz  :  saw that it was an aceptable thing to do
[10:53:46] cswordsmanz  :  30 or so *
[10:56:17] cSwant  :  much the same way that I'd tell someone with a broken leg that they would have to use their crutches despite they thinking that being carried by someone is faster.
[10:56:57] cSwant  :  I'm not saying that, as I said they are acting in a way that is not acceptable, and I will talk to them about it
[10:59:48] cswordsmanz  :  tbh what i would like you to do is to see to it that at least the two users you just saw do it get like  .. a few hours time out from the rom and the chan operator comits to such sensible moderation ? this seems reasonable esp since it is like a dayly thing , if that is done and stuck too this time i feel that other will be civil in the future , as they are in all other rooms
[11:04:17] cSwant  :  We generally don't overrun channel operators. If the channel operators of ##hardware has a rule that they expect correct spelling, which it seems like, then I can't force them to change that rule, because that rule in itself is not offensive
[11:06:12] cSwant  :  I can talk to the users who make unnecessarily harsh comments about your spelling. And I think that might be enough in this case
[11:07:35] cswordsmanz  :  that rule would not overturn the defemation and hate speach , and as a network operator you are obliged to make sure that 1) defamation and hate speach are acted at at chanel levels on mainline chanels and 2) that chanel operators do not make up silly rules to cercomvent this this
[11:10:57] cSwant  :  The channel operators has pretty clearly stated that the rules/expectations in that channel is that all users check their spelling to keep spelling mistakes to a minimum, which might be different from other channels you are in. And you might have to attempt to follow that rule much the same way that the other people will have to be less rude about how they point it out
[11:13:57] cswordsmanz  :  Swant:  this is inforced for literally noone else, if that was the case it would be incombent on the chanel operators to start warning and issueing time outs for all other spelling infraction, also such a rule would make freenode and the room not equlities act complient in this edge case wich again leaves the chan operators and freenode in open breach of its stated policy and uk law
[11:15:56] cswordsmanz  :  if it wre found in court that that rule had been enforced in an asymatrical way deliberatly to exclude someone with a disability as it seems to be here it could even be a case of criminal discrimination
[11:17:32] cSwant  :  I'm sure that if someone made as many spelling mistakes without making seemingly any attempt to mitigate them with spell-checking it would apply to them as well. no one is saying there is a "no spelling mistakes at all" 'rule'
[11:18:55] cswordsmanz  :  if have done my mitigation by explaining myself politely, and explaining that i do take care to make sure that msg's are legable , wich is all that i can be reasonably expected to do
[11:20:49] cSwant  :  and again I'm sure no one would complain if a few spelling mistakes slipped through in your, or anyone else's messages. but when all but a few words light up in a spell checker for pretty much all your messages in that channel they don't seem to believe that you do that
[11:27:53] cswordsmanz  :  again even if i did not us a spell check .. and much of the time i do, the only thing that is encumbent on me to do here is explain myself politely and make an honest atempt at makeing msgs legable wich again clearly i do, and since this rule seems to have been inventd literally just now i can only be left to assume that it is a retaliatory mesure to me complaining about the harassment .. wich is
[11:28:01] cswordsmanz  :  clearly also not accpetable
[11:30:11] cSwant  :  look, to the other people in the channel it is not clear that you try to make your messages readable. that's what they're complaining about. and maybe calling it a rule is the wrong word, but that expectation seem to have existed in the channel in an unspoken manner for a very long time
[11:34:30] cswordsmanz  :  well then if it is not a rule and simple a loose social convention and it would be discriminatory if applied as a rule under this edge condition then there should be no problem with 1) accpting a civil explantion for any poor spelling and 2) issueing time outs to anyone acting in a clearly harassing and defamatory manner
[11:38:05] cswordsmanz  :   well then if it is not a rule and simple a loose social convention and it would be discriminatory if applied as a rule under this edge condition then there should be no problem with 1) accpting a civil explantion for any poor spelling and 2) issueing time outs to anyone acting in a clearly harassing and defamatory manner (resent due to a possible network error )