prole judgement - wolf vs ken

##Ken vs Wolf

#Fixit vs Guts

**Ken 1:**

- Dragonslayer long. Even longer than Fixit’s arms.

- Fixit has to work to get inside Guts’s range and risks getting chopped up before he can land a hit.

- Fixit being bulletproof isn’t good enough to tank sharp sword swung by strong man.

- Guts faster than horses and fast fairies.

- Fixit lacks running speed feats.

- Guts also fast in combat. Scales to guys who blitz soldiers.

- Banner lacks reaction feats.

- Melee means Fixit dies.

- Even if Fixit gets in range past long long sword and lands a hit, Guts is very durable and can power through hits with meme willpower.

**Wolf 1:**

- Fixit recognizes he’s naked in the middle of the day on a desert island fighting an unfamiliar opponent.

- IC, in this kind of situation, he would gravitate towards the advantage of his guns.

Wolf says this is “obvious” and maybe it is but I’d like some character scans showing a preference for guns or equivalent advantages over a straight slugging match.

- Fixit is closer to ranged spawn as the crow flies and jumps real good. He gets there before Guts even considers it.

Yep, checks out. Just a matter of showing this is something he *will* do.

-  Guts lacks feats against bullets so once Fixit gets his guns, Guts is shredded on the approach.

- Even in a melee, Hulk is not limited by the length of his arms.

- Long series of scans showing Hulk IC using pieces of the environment as improvised weapons to extend his range.

- Hulk STRONG.

- Hulk could feasibly take Guts’s sword from him because he is undeniably stronger.

- Guts speed is fake. Humans on foot can take avenues horses can’t, so intercepting horseman doesn’t necessarily mean guts beat him in a straight footrace.

- Fairy scaling is fake. Don’t know how long the fairies take to reach the horizon because comics are a static medium.

- Fairy scaling needs context---did Guts sustain speed? Were fairies taking the chase seriously or playing a game?

**Ken 2:**

- Once again, Dragonslayer long.

- Once again, Guts strong.

- Once again, Guts scaling fast.

- Once again, Guts durable + willpower.

- Fixit still hasn’t been shown to have speed to get to ranged first.

Eh. I think the jump good scan is enough.

- Scan of Guts IC prioritizing his ranged weapons after having his shit taken away.

- Guts jumping does not have specified speed on it.

- Current argument goes against Wolf’s argument for Fixit not having good ways to access ranged weapons or the characterization of going for them.

- Dragonslayer sharp. Repeatedly cuts stone, metal, wood. Any tree or rock Fixit can find to throw or swing at Guts, Guts can cut in half.

- Hulk, IC, is most famous for HULK SMASH. Why would Hulk sit back and throw things when most of his feats are him going in to smash things with his fists.

- In the horse speed feat, the castle’s location doesn’t allow for alternate routes so guts hat to outrun the horse. That or scale a sheer wall, which just means he climbs good and gets to ranged first.

- Fairy scaling doesn’t need a specified amount of time to be good.

Then neither does Hulk’s jump.

- Fairies were being serious in the chase feat, scan for proof.

**Wolf 2? (Actually conclusion but we’ll count it):**

- Fixit would IC go for guns because he’s smart

Scan pls?

- Fixit jump fast, that’s obvious based on how far he travels in the air without falling.

- Fixit gets guns, mogs.

**Result: Guts Win**

Fixit lacks a substantiated characterization of going for his guns or fencing with trees instead of going for fisticuffs. Guts, meanwhile, has a far more viable, in character, and comprehensive wincon of cutting Fixit with a really big sword. Guts also has Fixit on combat and likely travel speed as well, even with jump good, and Ken cast enough doubt on Fixit running from his problems to suggest to me that the two get into a melee confrontation and Joe Fixit loses a few limbs.

#Devil Hulk vs Kira

**Wolf 1?:**

- something about baki

- devil hulk gets hit by a truck and doesn’t budge

- also very bulletproof

**Ken 1:**

- Speed scaling to fast stands, Crazy Diamond 300kph punches.

- Kira turns people into bombs on contact.

- Hulk turns into a bomb when Kira touches him with fast stand hands.

- Hulk needs dura to explode and come back.

**Wolf 1:**

- Hulk has an instinctual sense for danger and the supernatural. Many scans to back this up.

- Kira is dangerous AND supernatural.

- Hulk would be too wary to approach straightforwardly.

- Kira is overconfident - gloats instead of killing Jojo, loses for it.

Wolf mislinks here but this scan has been used in every match Kira has been in so far so I know what he’s talking about.

- Kira has no answer to attacks from range. Reliant on his stand, and if his stand gets hit, he gets hit.

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEdg4glpCkg

- or thunderclap, but I don’t have a funny meme for that.

- or swing something big and long like a tree or a telephone pole at him.

- Kira lacks dura to take Hulk Smash.

- All of Kira’s exploding feats are against normal human bodies.

- Hulk throws a rock at Kira, who has no answer to it other than turning it into a bomb. Now he has a rock flying at his face that is also a bomb.

**Ken 2:**

- Hulk doesn’t seem to use his danger sense to keep distance---stays close to ghosts, wendigo, etc. despite sensing supernatural/danger

- Danger sense is also contradicted by Hulk choosing to take combat actions that damage his body and leave him weakened later----busting his shoulder stopping a jeep.

- How fast does Hulk throw rocks? Kira dodges.

Ken has shown Kira’s stand dodging and blocking, not Kira doing so. Wolf literally said he relied on his stand to respond to ranged and this was not refuted.

- Thunderclap needs more info. Only feat given just has it knock people down.

- Kira can touch Hulk’s improvised weapons and make them bombs.

- Kira’s dura feat is better than presented by Wolf because Crazy Diamond scaling.

- Kira’s stand is transmutation that bypasses conventional dura.

- Even assuming straightforward dura, Wolf has to prove hulk could tank explosions that vaporize human bodies.

**Wolf 2:**

- Kira has never turned anything as big and tough as Hulk into a bomb, just human bodies and coins

- Kira can’t turn enemy stands into a bomb, which Hulk is conceptually similar to.

Weird flex, I was fine with the first argument.

- Hulk still just throws a rock.

**Result: Devil Hulk Win.**

This might seem a little surprising but despite a dearth of actual scans in places, Wolf caught me on a few key points. While there was a considerable back and forth between whether Hulk would in character resort to improvised weapons and rock throwing or straight fists (and I think there’s about a 50/50 argument for either), it really doesn’t matter. Kira has never turned anything as big or as durable as a Hulk into a bomb. He is limited to coins, doorknobs, purse clasps, and human bodies. Ironically, it’s Wolf’s joke R1 that cements this. Devil Hulk is more like a bulletproof brick wall than a human and Kira has never, ever done any sort of structural damage with Killer Queen equivalent to being shot up by a mob of state troopers with automatic weapons or ploughed into at full force by a semi truck. In melee, this means Kira goes for his signature move, fails, and is flattened by an angry Hulk. At range, it means even if Kira can turn a lobbed boulder into a bomb, it blows up in his face. Ken also failed to show Kira the stand user dodging a single time and as Wolf points out quite correctly that means Kira’s only recourse to attacks of any sort involves his stand, who he takes damage through. Killer Queen was not shown to have the strength to stop a hulk punch or, say, an uprooted Wuhu Island Tree thrown like a javelin even if it did have the speed to do so. Ken did not do enough to demonstrate the lack of a size or durability limit on Kira’s power.

#Banner vs Satou

- Everything that would kill a normal human kills Satou.

- If Satou dies, he just comes back.

- Satou uses this tactically.

- Hulk smash = Satou comes back fine and surprises him.

- Banner needs to approach to fight. Banner doesn’t know Satou is immortal and will use his C4 to suicide when he gets into melee.

- Satou’s suicide vest is meme strong.

- Banner explodes and dies.

**Wolf 1:**

- Banner is IC nonlethal. Satou won’t get a chance to regen unless he kills himself.

- Banner can attack from range using the taser.

- The taser is potentially nonlethal, but could wreck Satou’s weapons including his suicide vest.

- Explosions bad because surface area.

- Actually Banner literally has a C4 feat with more C4 by poundage than Satou would carry.

- Feat looks bad but DW it’s mitigated because it’s early series, Banner didn’t have full access to Hulk then.

- Some silly dura feats.

- Marvel human dura lol

 - Banner has a lot of ways to beat Satou, including methods of finishing foes he has IC used in the past.

- Satou isn’t hiding his C4 vest. Banner isn’t a moron. Why would Banner walk up to the guy in the suicide jacket?

- Banner jump good too channeling Hulk. Gets to range before Satou.

**Ken 2:**


- Satou will rush ranged spawn, and when Banner meets him, he will try a punch or try throwing him, letting Satou get close enough to detonate his suicide vest point blank.

- Even if Banner tries to go nonlethal, it wouldn’t work. Satou is simply too frail to not kill with Hulk strength.

- Banner’s supposed experience with immortals is nothing to prepare him for Satou, whose regen is instant and infallible. Satou also uses regen smartly.

- Satou plays tricky, uses his own gore and viscera as a blinding distraction--- a trick that would work on Banner.

- Even if the vest gets destroyed, Satou can still kill Banner via telefrag regen.

- Satou surviving the taser is a joke, it crumples cars and its energy output is measured like an earthquake.

- Shooting the C4 would be unlikely to set it off.

- Satou’s C4 is too meme strong for a pound to pound comparison.

- Banner’s C4 feat incaps him. Dead or incap, both are wincons for Satou.

- The ways Bruce has to incap Satou aren’t first options. Satou blows up his vest and kills/incaps before Bruce adapts.

- How would Banner know Satou had a C4 vest on?

Because he’s literally not hiding it.

**Wolf 2:**


- Banner gets to range spawn first because Hulk jump good.

- Taser is adjustable in output and Banner doesn’t like to kill.

- Banner’s backstory is literally making bombs for the military nad has feats for instantly recognizing technology

- Satou gets progressively weaker throughout the fight as his gear is used up or destroyed

- Banner resorts to one of many ways he can incap.

**Result: Banner Win.**

I don’t think Banner recognizing the C4 vest as a threat was ever a question, given that in no scan Ken provided did Satou make any attempt to hide the fact he had it, and Banner does in fact have a history of working with explosives so infamous that it does not need to be cited, though I appreciate that Wolf provided a scan showing Banner can recognize tech/weapons on sight. That leads into the uncontested fact that Banner can get his ranged spawn first with big hulk jumps and proceed to whittle down Satou as described by repeatedly shooting at him with the taser until his gear is all used up and he’s effectively just a 60 year old man who can’t die. Satou has no real means of harming Banner much with his bullets making the C4 his only option, and a dubious one at that given Banner’s aforementioned recognition of the threat, mobility advantage, and the fact Banner has a C4 survival feat because of course he does.