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  2. Session Start: Thu Apr 07 00:00:00 2016
  3. Session Ident: #WomenNS
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  37. 03[09:47] * Mousebumples sets mode: +v Kuramia
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  41. 03[09:49] * Mousebumples sets mode: +v Zenny
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  43. [10:00] <@Mousebumples> Welcome to the Women & NationStates Symposium on Women in the UCRs (User Created Regions). We're hoping to have a good discussion today, to talk about some of the issues facing these regions and players. Why don't I have my panelists introduce themselves a bit. How long have you been playing NS? What regions are you or have you been involved in?
  44. 03[10:01] * Wintermoot (~Wintermoo@209-197-41-132.unassigned.ntelos.net) has joined #WomenNS
  45. 03[10:03] * Abbey] (~IceChat9@5-198-101-85.static.kc.net.uk) has joined #WomenNS
  46. 03[10:03] * Abbey] is now known as Abbey
  47. [10:03] <+Zenny> Hi! I'm Zenny, I've been playing NationStates on and off for the last 7-8 years. I've been around in a lot of places like Balder, Europeia, British Isles, The Kingdom of Great Britain, Alliance of Queens. But I have since completely dedicated myself to The Communist Bloc where I've led on and off for the last 2 and a half years.
  48. 03[10:03] * Mousebumples sets mode: +v Abbey
  49. [10:04] <+Kuramia> My name is Kuramia. I originally started playing NationStates in May of 2011 on the nation Vhearun. I switched to Kuramia when I came back from a hiatus and got involved in the actual politics of the game, though I had been lurking on Gameplay for a while before that. I've been involved in two regions: Baldur and Europeia.
  50. [10:04] <@Imki> Hey! I'm Imkihca, I've been playing NS for just under a year now. I've been in the UCRs the Kingdom of Alexandria and Euro for the last few months and the GCR TSP since I joined.
  51. [10:05] <+Abbey> Hi all, I'm Abbey, I've been around since 2010, albeit not very actively for the last couple of years. I started my career in Europeia, and during that time was semi-involved in a few UCRs. I also founded Cat Burglars, but by that time I spent a lot of time in GCRs as wel.
  52. 02[10:06] * rhinotaz (webchat@200.99.204.66) Quit (Ping timeout: 195 seconds)
  53. [10:06] <@Mousebumples> I'm a hybrid moderator/panelist today, as most of my experience comes in UCRs, but I'll try not to anwer my own questions right away. ^_^ Anyhow, I'm Mousebumples, and I've been playing NS for over 12 years. I was the WA Delegate in Monkey Island for about 10 years before moving my WA nation to Europeia. I've been active in Europeia off-and-on since 2011, but more regular activity for
  54. [10:06] <@Mousebumples> about 2-3 years or so. I've got some ties to other regions (Texas, Antarctic Oasis), but MI and Euro are my main "regional homes," so to speak.
  55. [10:07] <@Mousebumples> with introductions out of the way, why don't we start with the obvious question first - what issues have you come across in your time in GCRs (regarding female players) that you think need to be addressed?
  56. [10:09] <+Kuramia> Being in Baldur, led by the famous Rach, I really haven't come across any issues. I'm sure there are the regular though: a bit of harrassment, maybe some immediate assumptions on one's gender. I think such things, if they are happening, should be addressed. Definitely the former more than the latter though.
  57. [10:09] <@Mousebumples> crap, my bad - i meant UCR
  58. [10:09] <@Mousebumples> (sorry)
  59. [10:09] <+Zenny> Was confused for a minute there :P
  60. [10:09] <+Abbey> I thought so... :P
  61. [10:10] <+Kuramia> XD Haha, well I haven't experienced anything in a UCR either. Except assumptions I'm male.
  62. 03[10:10] * HannahB (~HannahB@36.40.9.51.dyn.plus.net) has joined #WomenNS
  63. [10:11] <+Abbey> I found that, especially as I was really very young when I first joined a UCR, ou get rather...fawned over, and at first it's very hard to create your own identity. It's almost an excess of niceness rather than bad attitudes though
  64. [10:12] <+Abbey> There's definitely pressure to be 'girly' if you do make your gender known though - I'm far less girly IRL, or at least I was - that pressure to be girly eventually ended up affecting how I look at myself outside of NS too.
  65. [10:12] <+Abbey> I'm not sure that's a bad thing, as it's who I am now, but at the time it was difficult
  66. [10:12] <@Mousebumples> Why do you think that is? Why do women in UCRs get fawned over, and why is there a priority to make yourself girl?
  67. [10:12] <+Zenny> I assume that GCRs deal with the same type of harassment and sexism issues that UCRs do, but my experiences have made it feel sometimes that politics can in many cases trump evidence in that some users get shielded from sexual harassment accusations and many times women are not taken seriously when they share their harassment experiences.
  68. [10:14] <+Abbey> I'm not sure, Mouse. Perhaps because as NS personas, there are sort of a few categories: young and innocent, sexy and strong and bruff, with a fair few exceptions (massive generalisation here). At the age I was, I felt a lot of pressure to fit in, as I didn't fit in with anybody in real life and was being bullied.
  69. [10:14] <+Abbey> So perhaps it was a combination of the fact that NS is full of strong personalities, and my circumstances when I joined.
  70. [10:15] <+Kuramia> And that's almost explotation, though I don't think it's fully intended to be that. I think guys will always have expectations of women, and when we don't fit in that box society has created, even online, they tend to be shocked.
  71. [10:15] <+Abbey> In UCRs in particular, it's harder to just disappear into the crowd if you like
  72. [10:16] <+Abbey> And there's often a degree more...similarity, in that everyone there has chosen to be there because of its theme, its attitudes.
  73. [10:16] <+Kuramia> Very true. UCRs tend to be culturally...inclusive?
  74. [10:16] <@Imki> I've found UCRs tend to be closer nit communities than GCRs probably due to the nature of them, I think the excess niceness that I agree I have also noticed that comes with being openly female can help integrate into that community and so for some maybe something they wish to encourage?
  75. [10:17] <+Abbey> Yes, Kuramia
  76. [10:17] <@Mousebumples> Might it also be that - for some regions - having a girl join is like having a unicorn show up on their front lawn? Some regions obviously have more female players than others, but it's extra new! and exciting! ... ?
  77. [10:17] <+Abbey> Yes
  78. [10:17] <+Kuramia> I've noticed that on other online games, but I've missed it here in NS, though I've no doubt it occurs.
  79. [10:18] <+Abbey> Women might not be unusual, but players who immediately identify as female is
  80. 03[10:18] * Codger (~Codger@c110-20-93-171.rivrw9.nsw.optusnet.com.au) has joined #WomenNS
  81. [10:18] <@Mousebumples> did you guys feel that you had a female role model in your region to look up to when you first joined? or do you feel that you _were_ a female role model to other women? how did that impact your behavior?
  82. [10:20] <+Abbey> I did, for a while, but it was a case that the appearance wasn't what it seemed. That process of feeling let down certainly affected me. And in the areas I got interested in, there really weren't many women at all (Justicing and such), at least in Euro at the time.
  83. [10:21] <+Abbey> I wound up with a combination of female and male role models for different things - how someone reacts to a challenge, their legal rulings, their friendliness off-site etc
  84. [10:21] <+Kuramia> I had a role model. But, being someone who doesn't care about sex or gender at all, and doesn't personally care if I identify as male or female at any given time, my chosen role model wasn't the "ideal" female. I'm too old to let what someone else wants me to be affect impact my behavior online. I'd mentally flip them off and move on with my life.
  85. 02[10:21] * LewisWF (Mibbit@90.221.55.172) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
  86. [10:21] <+Zenny> Maybe it was just an awkward time when I started joining a few of the large UCRs but I can't really remember any prominent women back then. I simply clung to the group that was nicest which like most other cliques in NS was almost entirely male.
  87. 03[10:21] * Illhos[Erin] (Mibbit@c-b880e655.021-90-6e6b7012.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) has joined #WomenNS
  88. [10:22] <+Abbey> There were certainly /more/ highly visible male role models
  89. [10:23] <+Kuramia> Well statistically, there has to be....for now.
  90. [10:23] <@Mousebumples> do you think it's important to have females in semi-prominent positions? (i.e. legislature, executive branch, etc.) or is that something that as Kuramia says, is not really necessary because the gender of your role model shouldn't really matter?
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  92. [10:24] <+Abbey> I think it's important for everyone to be given a chance. I don't think the gender of the role model /should/ matter, but as with real life, we identify better with people similar to us, and so it is important to have a number of visible female role models, to help remind newbies that there are women in this game
  93. [10:24] <+Kuramia> No, I still think it's important. Women need representation, the same as any other group does, majority or minority. When women have to deal with harrassment and other nasty things online, even in NS, there has to be people who stand out to show the new woman it's okay to be women!
  94. [10:24] <+Zenny> Tough call. Overall the people best for the job should hold positions, but I think its also pretty important to have a diverse region and regional government.
  95. [10:26] <@Mousebumples> As a leader (within your region, within your a subset of your community, etc.) what can we (as women) do to try to highlight the accomplishments of women within our regions? What should we ask from (and expect from) our male colleagues?
  96. [10:28] <+Abbey> We should expect not to be treated differently. I think all regions should work at highlighting the achievements of citizens, from all walks of RL and NS life. As women, I think just speaking to new members and being kind to them and showing them what other women in NS have achieved could perhaps help things.
  97. [10:29] <+Zenny> This is where creativity comes in. Women can be celebrated and respected in so many different ways, we in The Communist Bloc celebrate International Women's Day every year and have a Revolutionary Women's Union to promote women's accomplishments in NS and address the sometimes difficult social issues that women face in the community.
  98. [10:29] <+Kuramia> I think we should highlight their accomplishments period. Just saying, hey so-and-so did this and that and using she and her pronouns does that. I don't know that we need to tout out banners that scream 'girl power' and overthrow patriarchy wherever we find it, but education is good. Mostly like 'don't assume everyone is male please', 'respect pronouns', 'don't harrass anyone'. Everyone should
  99. [10:29] <+Kuramia> be respected unless they're being...a rule breaker.
  100. [10:29] <+Zenny> On men, yeah its really just a matter of treating women how you would treat any other male colleague.
  101. [10:29] <@Imki> I completely agree, everyone should be given an equal opportunity to perform, shine and fulfil their full potential.
  102. [10:32] <@Mousebumples> Do your regions have a process for reporting or responding to cases of prejudice or harassment and the like?
  103. [10:32] <@Mousebumples> How do they work in practice (rather than in theory) ? How can they be improved?
  104. [10:33] <+Abbey> When I founded CB, the entire concept was "be nice". It never got big enough nor did anything much happen that meant that I would have had to apply that in this context, though.
  105. [10:34] <+Kuramia> Oh yes. I'm sure you could go into more detail on it, Mouse, but I know Europeia does and, though I don't know if it's ever had to be used, I'm quite sure it works. Right now, I know our Senate is going through a law review, so that's one way in general to improve them. Even bringing it up in discussion should be possible and encouraged in every region.
  106. [10:35] <@Mousebumples> Europeia's system has both positives and negatives. If someone is a non-citizen (i.e. diplomat) and something regarding inappropriate actions via PMs or Skype or whatever, the admins have acted unilaterally in the past to remove that player's masking as a response.
  107. [10:36] <@Mousebumples> However, if someone is a citizen ... it's much more difficult to "prove" things - and if it's a popular player that's making the inappropriate comments, there can be potential issues with the female player being accused of being "too sensitve" or whatnot.
  108. [10:36] <+Zenny> The few cases that we've had in TCB were fairly simple and easily confirmed through screenshots of the reported events. I always make sure that people know that if theres anything bothering them or wrong that they can speak to me and issues of harassment are not forwarded to any regioal court, as we take it as an administrative issue where its not
  109. [10:36] <+Zenny> welcome in our community, period.
  110. [10:36] <+Abbey> One thing, related to that, it often seems a little odd that things like harassment are in the legal code, rather than just administrative issues
  111. [10:36] <@Mousebumples> I'm not saying that having laws - and enforcing them - is bad, but this is definitely a situation where having a heavily male court and administration can make it more difficult on the female player than is perhaps intended.
  112. [10:36] <+Abbey> Because of the aforementioned issues with the courts
  113. [10:37] <@Mousebumples> from Julia: Do you think NS regions are at this point, is supportive or not so supportive in terms of helping deal with harassment? Why? And if this varies, why do you think that is? And how do you feel the culture could be improved if need be?
  114. [10:37] <+Abbey> It depends on the region. It depends on the person doing the harassing, frankly.
  115. [10:38] <+Kuramia> Hm, I have to say, I'd like a no tolerance policy on harrassment. If someone says stop, and the person doesn't, that should be weighed heavily.
  116. [10:38] <+Abbey> If it's a well known, popular person, then it's much more difficult getting help. If it's, say, Govinidia, then the response is different.
  117. [10:39] <+Zenny> I think its a mixed bag. There are some places known for haboring notorious sexual harassers and others that take it extremely seriously. On how to change that, I'm not exactly sure if it can other than the free market of ideas where users reject those regions who tolerate such things.
  118. [10:39] <+Abbey> I won't name names, but that's a personal experience - and it's a big part of why I've been out of the game for the last couple of years, as I just couldn't face coming back and dealing with that alongside all my other problems.
  119. [10:39] <@Mousebumples> I know that EuroChat, for example, has greatly improved over the past year or year and a half. We used to have a guy in there that would make lewd and inappropriate comments and it's just "the way it was." Now, that's no longer considered to be appropriate and can get you kicked from the chat if you post messages along those lines.
  120. 03[10:40] * BenevolentThomas (~Thomas@184-91-195-253.res.bhn.net) has joined #WomenNS
  121. [10:40] <+Kuramia> I did notice and like that change! I think we should all be moving towards such things. I want an environment to have fun, and no one should feel like Abbey. Cause I won't put up with it. If it happened to me, I have other games I can play, and unlike a lot of others, when I retire in games, it's for good.
  122. [10:41] <+Abbey> Another thing that is also a personal experience, is the fact that some people have different boundaries for what is okay. I've had several people who, despite making clear the fact that I am more sensitive to some things because of RL problems, not had that respoected too
  123. [10:41] <@Mousebumples> One of the bigger issues for some regions, I'd expect, would be if a very active and essential member of your region has issues that result in him harassing other players. It's easy to say "cut him loose!" (and I agree that's what should be done), but ... it can be difficult for some regions to pull that trigger. And if that player in question has power or is the founder, how can you really
  124. [10:41] <@Mousebumples> remove him?
  125. [10:41] <+Abbey> Too true, Mouse.
  126. [10:42] <+Kuramia> In that case, you remove yourself. There are other regions, and as Zenny has said, sometimes it's the only protest you can make.
  127. [10:42] <@Mousebumples> I completely agree, Kuramia - and that's something that I hope this Symposium is making clear to female players. If your region has issues, there are plenty of other options out there that won't disrespect you or treat you inappropriately.
  128. [10:42] <+Abbey> But then, it's still not okay, and frankly, if half the region walks because the founder harrasses members, then he's probably going to consider his behaviour and if he doesn't, then all you can do is make it clear to the NS world what the situation is.
  129. [10:43] <+Kuramia> Well technically he wouldn't have much of a region anymore either. That does make me feel better.
  130. [10:43] <@Mousebumples> And if you're politically minded enough to want to try to fix things even after you're gone, make a post on NSGP - "Why I left [region]." Overall, I think the community would be supportive, but you'll definitely get some players that jibe and make fun of you, so you need to be thick skinned enough to handle that.
  131. [10:43] <+Zenny> This is the point I made at the beginning. There are some cases I've personally dealth with where users who had already had several victims come forward were never dealth with because they were so useful to the regions they served in, and it wasn't until that usefulness wore off where it was addressed months later. Some people simply care more about politics
  132. [10:43] <+Zenny> than the overall health of their communities.
  133. 06[10:43] * +Abbey nods
  134. [10:43] <+Abbey> Which is sad.
  135. [10:44] <+Kuramia> The two are linked though! I mean, you're eventually going to bring about the demise of the region with that attitude.
  136. [10:44] <@Mousebumples> I'd hope that - as an NS GP community - we're re-evaluating that, overall. I know that there will always be outliers, but in general, I think I've noticed a shift over the past year or so.
  137. [10:45] <+Kuramia> There's been a shift over the entire internet. It's been nice to see it, though the mob mentality is a little concerning.
  138. [10:45] <+Zenny> There is absolutely much more focus on womens issues and sexual harassment now than there has been in the past, its been a wonderful development for the entire worldwide community.
  139. [10:45] <+Abbey> I think there is a divide building, with the significant numbers of people resisting the change.
  140. [10:45] <@Mousebumples> And, like with any shift, there are those that don't like change for whatever reason, and they yell and shout and scream and throw tantrums about how we women are ruining the world with our awesomeness. ^_^
  141. [10:46] <+Abbey> Yup ^_^
  142. [10:46] <+Abbey> And they can scream and shout until their lungs are raw because we're not going away
  143. [10:46] <@Mousebumples> Reminds me of that beyonce song - who runs the world? girls! xD
  144. [10:46] <@Mousebumples> From HannahB: Do you think women players receive different treatment in regards to general harassment, when it isn't specifically gendered?
  145. [10:47] <+Zenny> For sure, there are growing subcultures trying to reject progression on these issues and like to assume that for instance anyone speaking up for women being harassed must be a radical tumblr feminist.
  146. [10:47] <@Mousebumples> And as a follow up from me, while it isn't as common, do you then men would get the same or different treatment if they were harassed? (whether by a woman or man)
  147. [10:48] <+Abbey> I think there is actually a reverse problem, which exists iRL too, that I suspect a male member reporting harrassment might be taken even less seriously than a woman and told to just toughen up.
  148. [10:49] <+Abbey> That's a general sense though, I don't have an example in mind
  149. [10:49] <+Kuramia> Yeah, most of the time the man won't even speak up.
  150. [10:49] <+Zenny> Yeah, drawing a blank x)
  151. [10:49] <@Mousebumples> yeah, i can definitely understand that
  152. [10:50] <+Abbey> I think because women are seen as more vulnerable and more in need of being looked after, attitudes towards harrassing them have changed more quickly than for blokes.
  153. [10:50] <@Mousebumples> Is there something that we should do within our communities to make it less of a "RAWR. I am male. I have testosterone. I have power!" thing, where guys should be able to feel like they can report this and don't always have to take the "go in with guns blazing" approach when it comes to solving ... most things?
  154. [10:51] <+Abbey> I don't know. I think just encouraging men to talk in private is the start.
  155. 02[10:51] * LewisWF (Mibbit@94.3.255.0) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
  156. [10:52] <@Mousebumples> I like to make a point of playing devil's advocate in some cases. "Okay, you suggested this, but what about _that_ instead?"
  157. [10:52] <@Mousebumples> sometimes i truly believe my alternative is better, and sometimes, i just want to make sure that we've evaluated all the options available
  158. [10:52] <+Abbey> It's a massive societal problem which makes it very big and scary to try and tackle it in our little corner of the internet.
  159. [10:52] <+Zenny> I think its always important to stress that a community is built on friendship and that politics aside everyone is just trying to help out. They like women need to know that they have a place to go when they need help and need someone to talk to that will understand them and try to help.
  160. [10:52] <@Mousebumples> Well said, Zenny.
  161. [10:53] <+Kuramia> Yep, what Zenny said. Men need to know that if someone is bothering them, they can do something about it.
  162. [10:55] <@Mousebumples> We'll talk about this more later in the NS Families discussion, but I do want to touch on it briefly here. How do you think NS families positively (or negatively) impact communities within UCRs? What, if anything, should be changed?
  163. [10:56] <+Abbey> They are both helpful and harmful
  164. [10:56] <+Kuramia> I can't really comment. I'm neutral concerning families. I find them amusing.
  165. [10:56] <+Zenny> I think its another mixed bag x) The friendships and bonds built by NS families can sometimes make it so, so much easier to talk to someone about the problem and get help. And also in many cases that I've had to deal with, its used as an excuse to go after all the women in the region and beg and not take no for an answer to where they feel very uncomfortable.
  166. [10:57] <@Imki> My personal experiences with NS families has been pretty innocent although confusing.
  167. [10:57] <+Abbey> The initial rush to marry off any new female player is incredibly harmful. Equally my NS family was supported and like a group of mentors for me.
  168. 03[10:57] * Bel (~Bel@host86-166-47-230.range86-166.btcentralplus.com) has joined #WomenNS
  169. [10:57] <@Mousebumples> I was turned off from NS families due to an experience right after I joined Europeia that I'll talk about in more detail later today. (spoiler alert!) I can definitely see the bonds of friendship and camaraderie, but the desperation of some men to "find a woman to marry" is off-putting and something that "single male players" really should think about more.
  170. [10:58] <+Zenny> So much this^
  171. [10:58] <@Mousebumples> If someone is a friend and you think an NS marriage would be fun, that's one thing. But the first contact you have with a girl is saying, "Marry me!" ... just because you don't want someone else to beat you to "claiming her" ? That's wholly inappropriate and shouldn't have a place in regions that want to say that they're serious about ensuring equal rights for all players.
  172. [10:59] <+Abbey> Agreed
  173. [10:59] <@Imki> Totally
  174. [10:59] <@Mousebumples> From frattastan: Can all women of NS join in an exclusive super-polygamous union?
  175. [10:59] <+Abbey> That would be amusing
  176. [10:59] <@Mousebumples> we'd be sister-wives ... in a completely non-mormon way
  177. [11:00] <+Abbey> No more incestuous than NS families already are :P
  178. [11:00] <@Imki> Lol
  179. [11:00] <+Zenny> Anumians, unite.
  180. [11:01] <@Mousebumples> Thanks to each of you for joining us today. Do any of you have any final statements you'd want to get out before we close up this panel?
  181. [11:03] <+Kuramia> Hail Loki!
  182. [11:03] <+Abbey> I'm probably fine, as long as people remember that they can always walk from a region if harrassment isn't being dealt with and you're not comfortable. Don't stay out of a sense of honour or anything similarly daft.
  183. [11:03] <+Zenny> I just wanna thank you for having me on, was really interesting to get some different opinions and perspectives on these super important issues from other women that I wouldn't have gotten otherwise.
  184. [11:03] <@Mousebumples> Thanks to each of you for joining us - and for all who have been following along. I hope we'll see some improvements and changes in our regions and communities going forward, as a result.
  185. [11:04] <@Mousebumples> next panel is in about an hour - on NS Gameplay Families
  186. 03[11:04] * +Abbey (~IceChat9@5-198-101-85.static.kc.net.uk) has left #WomenNS
  187. [11:04] <@Imki> Thanks everyone for letting me be part of this informative discussion. :)
  188. [11:16] <@Mousebumples> BTW, to clarify on the Europeian law versus ToS bit above, I've been chatting with some of the legal experts in Europeia not that my mind isn't focused on this, and this is the response I've gotten:
  189. [11:16] <@Mousebumples> The Criminal Code (CC) version is quite a bit wider in terms of which actions are prohibited than the ToS. Thanks to the Jurisdiction amendment the CC version also has a much wider scope of applicability, since its not just applicable on the forum, but on any venue maintained or provided by the Government of Europeia, or even outside any such venue if the action causes injury to a citizen or
  190. [11:16] <@Mousebumples> the government of europeia.
  191. 02[11:18] * Julia (Mibbit@49.187.134.41) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
  192. 02[11:23] * Codger (~Codger@c110-20-93-171.rivrw9.nsw.optusnet.com.au) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
  193. 02[11:43] * Sam111 (uid92533@2604:8300:100:200b:6667:2:1:6975) Quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
  194. 03[11:57] * Mousebumples sets mode: +v ProfessorHenn
  195. 03[12:00] * Mousebumples sets mode: +v madjack
  196. 03[12:02] * Kaz (webchat@S010600fc8dee7383.vc.shawcable.net) has joined #WomenNS
  197. 02[12:03] * +Zenny (Mibbit@c-73-27-92-211.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
  198. [12:03] <@Mousebumples> Alright, then! It's time for our next panel - NationStates "Gameplay" Families!
  199. [12:04] <@Mousebumples> Why don't we start by having our panelists quickly introduce themselves and give a little background. And if you're in an NS Gameplay family, feel free to detail a generation or two or three of your family tree.
  200. 02[12:04] * Illhos[Erin] (Mibbit@c-b880e655.021-90-6e6b7012.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
  201. [12:04] <+ProfessorHenn> Shall I?
  202. [12:04] <@Mousebumples> I think you shall.
  203. [12:06] <+ProfessorHenn> Excellent. I'm ProfessorHenn, culturalist, imperial enthusiast, and general culture guy. I usually hang out in TSP, where I served in multiple positions from Army guy to Culture guy, paraphrasing, of course.
  204. [12:07] <+Kuramia> My name is Kuramia. I originally started playing NationStates in May of 2011 on the nation Vhearun. I switched to Kuramia when I came back from a hiatus and got involved in the actual politics of the game, though I had been lurking on Gameplay for a while before that. I've been involved in two regions: Baldur and Europeia.
  205. [12:08] <+madjack> I'm madjack, or at least i was madjack. Started in ns in 2006, became a regular in 2010. Was a member of Earth's family/ies although due to the political drama in Osiris the lineage is a bit murky. I am either biyah's adopted son or unibots adopted son, brother to tim (latterly of the starks) and milograd (rip). I also helped found a family, the Hollands, with OT, now known as Celeste and present mainly in Albion
  206. [12:08] <+madjack> and Alexandria. Was delegate of Osiris and one of what I've seen called RPer Defender generation, with milo, solm and a few others.
  207. [12:08] <+madjack> Not that any of us bar solm stayed defender.
  208. [12:09] <@Mousebumples> I'm Mousebumples. I've been playing NS since 2003, and the regions I started with were more RP based, if anything, and didn't have any semblance of "families" like what we see in GP. So when I got started in Europeia in 2011, that was a definite Culture Shock for me.
  209. [12:11] <@Mousebumples> So it looks like madjack is/was involved in an NS family, but i'm not quite sure on Kuramia or ProfessorHenn. I am not in an NS family, for clarify. Can you two clarify?
  210. [12:12] <+ProfessorHenn> I'm not in a family, at least not in gameplay. The closest thing would be my Church of Henn, present in a small UCR I also hang out in.
  211. [12:14] <+Kuramia> I'm not in a family. I've been curious, but haven't felt any pull to any family name I see floating about. I mostly see it as amusing.
  212. [12:14] <@Mousebumples> ok, so the first question from BenevolentThomas: I've been repeatedly asked to join a few NS families. What are the benefits?
  213. [12:15] <+madjack> Arguably, political backing by the family, and the contacts that provides.
  214. [12:15] <+ProfessorHenn> A sense of a social network, from which to increase your power.
  215. 03[12:15] * Mousebumples sets mode: +v Raven|bed
  216. [12:16] <+madjack> becoming an Anumia, for example, in Europeia, used to open up more opportunities in places like Balder and EoE than just going in.
  217. [12:16] <+Raven|bed> A nationstates family is meaningless unless you hold a bond with the people in that house, in my opinion.
  218. [12:16] <+Raven|bed> So if people want you to join a family, you should always ask "why do you want me?"
  219. [12:17] <@Mousebumples> What do you (or should you) look for when asking someone to join your family?
  220. [12:17] <+madjack> talent.
  221. [12:17] <+ProfessorHenn> Hardworking.
  222. [12:17] <+ProfessorHenn> If they are
  223. [12:17] <+Raven|bed> Compassion
  224. [12:17] <+ProfessorHenn> Cooperation skills.
  225. [12:17] <+madjack> if you're a patriarch or matriarch of an ns family, the actions of anyone with your 'name' so to speak, reflect - or should, at least - reflect on you.
  226. [12:18] <+Raven|bed> Compassion, integrity, honesty
  227. [12:18] <+madjack> I wouldn't want some useless twerp running around with my name
  228. [12:18] <+Raven|bed> I'll defend my NS House to the ends of the world, but they have to uphold those values, and they should ideally be putting Alexandria first.
  229. [12:18] <+madjack> at the same time though, get enough members and its becomes saturated
  230. [12:18] <+Raven|bed> I do not want my name used to advance someone elses' political career.
  231. [12:19] <+madjack> whenever i came across a new anumia eventually i just ended up shrugging
  232. [12:19] <+Raven|bed> Aye, I do as well truthfully
  233. [12:19] <+Raven|bed> The name Anumia isn't as respected as it was
  234. [12:19] <+madjack> hell, I'm not even sure /anumia/ knows all his kin
  235. [12:19] <+Raven|bed> because there are so many of them and it dilutes the respect value of that name
  236. [12:19] <+Raven|bed> I still respect Anumia himself, the same as I always have.
  237. [12:19] <+madjack> He is cool people.
  238. [12:19] <+Raven|bed> But his family are just "oh another?"
  239. [12:20] <+madjack> Aren't you married to an Anumia? :P
  240. [12:20] <@Mousebumples> does anyone have particular stories of note that they'd want to share - for good or bad - about NS family experiences?
  241. [12:20] <+ProfessorHenn> In a sense, it's nationalism/patriotism in NS. Ideally, you work for the good of the family, shrugging off selfish ties.
  242. [12:20] <+madjack> I've found ns families to be remarkably fluid
  243. [12:20] <+Raven|bed> Well, back when I first became Pharaoh of Osiris, I was working to try and create a regional identity for the region - which had lost it due to the civil war.
  244. [12:20] <+Raven|bed> And yes madjack I am :P
  245. [12:21] <+madjack> I'll let raven tell his 'osiris is fucked up' story, then I'll tell mine. :P
  246. [12:21] <+Raven|bed> I instituted the Great Cities of Osiris, and the House system with it - but I realised later on that I can't beat the Imperialists at that.
  247. [12:21] <+Raven|bed> And found myself basically backstabbed by a group of them who decided to try and use RP based politics to pretty much obliterate my influence in Osiris at that time.
  248. [12:22] <+Raven|bed> The person responsible quickly jumped from Ravenclaw to an Imperialist house.
  249. [12:22] <+madjack> Ouch.
  250. [12:23] <+Raven|bed> And to this day, he maintains the belief that he benefitted his house by destroying my influence.
  251. 03[12:23] * Darkesia (webchat@104-0-64-203.lightspeed.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net) has joined #WomenNS
  252. [12:23] <+Raven|bed> Of course, he isn't exactly welcome anywhere since he had the gall to leak from TEP of all places.
  253. [12:23] <@Mousebumples> ... whoops?
  254. [12:24] <+Raven|bed> When you leak from the most welcoming feeder in NS, who gives you as many chances as they think you need unless you do something unforgiveable...
  255. [12:24] <+Raven|bed> I doubt anyone of note in the Imperialsphere trusts him as far as they can throw him. Even two years on he's a small fry who deserted me when he thought I'd achieved as much as I would in NS. Jokes on him, I think.
  256. [12:24] <+madjack> I used to be think NS families were a bit silly, but being in Earth and Biyah's Osiris, I suppose families weere always going to come in eventually. Earth came in as a... Montroser, I wanna say, and either as that 'character' or as Lyanna Stark, 'coupled' with Biyah, and I became one of their spawn along with a few others, I think milo and maybe Tim.
  257. [12:25] <+madjack> but it being Osiris, happy families isn't really a thing
  258. [12:25] <+ProfessorHenn> Montresor
  259. [12:25] <+Raven|bed> Capulet, I think madjack
  260. [12:25] <+Raven|bed> Montresor wasn't a thing back then
  261. [12:25] <+Raven|bed> Montresor is Zeo's house that became appropriated by the others
  262. [12:26] <+madjack> so when Earth and Biyah split, and Earth shacked up with Unibot (shudder) it sortof became rather more awkward and tense than it was before
  263. [12:26] <+madjack> I even think there was some overlap
  264. [12:26] <+Raven|bed> It also led to Osiris going into civil war mode from September 2012 until December 2013
  265. [12:26] <+madjack> I quietly removed myself from NS families for a while after that whole episode went down.
  266. 03[12:26] * Zenny (Mibbit@c-73-27-92-211.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) has joined #WomenNS
  267. 03[12:26] * Mousebumples sets mode: +v Zenny
  268. [12:27] <+Raven|bed> I was invited to join the UDL around the start of that period as I resided in Earth's private channel at the time.
  269. [12:27] <@Mousebumples> Well, for me, my story is a little bit different - since i'm not involved in a family
  270. [12:28] <@Mousebumples> i alluded to it a bit this morning in the earlier panel, but the regions i started off in didn't have anything like NS families at all, so when i got citizenship in europeia (and was fairly obviously a GIRL) ... i got a PM from this player
  271. [12:28] <+Raven|bed> <wince>
  272. [12:29] <@Mousebumples> and i'm trying to find the pm - sorry, i should have looked for it before
  273. [12:29] <@Mousebumples> "Finally, on something not City Council/WA area...I don't know if you've seen but there's a Wellbeing Hub that's been established. One of the subforums is the Registry Office, where people can get married and have adoptions and stuff. So I was wondering if maybe you'd like to get NS married and like adopt Shadowlurker or something to spur activity there."
  274. [12:29] <@Mousebumples> i gave a general straightforward - "nope, not interested" response
  275. 02[12:30] * Bel (~Bel@host86-166-47-230.range86-166.btcentralplus.com) Quit
  276. [12:30] <@Mousebumples> and then i got a few follow up messages about how it wasn't that big of a deal, and all i'd have to do was post that i was up for marryign him and it would be done
  277. [12:30] <@Mousebumples> and i barely knew this kid, but it totally turned me off from NS families for ... ever, basically
  278. [12:30] <@Mousebumples> he wasn't offensive, he wasn't harassing me - nothing bad like that
  279. [12:31] <@Mousebumples> but it was completely not appropriate and just made me feel like my only value to him/the community was as a potential bride
  280. [12:31] <+Raven|bed> Honestly, that is a key example of how NS families shouldn't be done.
  281. [12:31] <+Raven|bed> And it's plain rude.
  282. [12:31] <+Kuramia> And it does sound like he was harrassing you. You said no and he pressed the issue.
  283. [12:32] <@Mousebumples> true - i'm probably down playing it, because i can just imagine in my head how it could have been _so much worse_
  284. [12:32] <@Mousebumples> he's not around anymore, so it's not worth focusing on too much - but for all the guys that go "haha, it's so funny to propose to everyone" .... it's not always as much fun when you're the one that has to fend off all of the unsolicited and unwanted proposals
  285. [12:32] <@Mousebumples> from BenevolentThomas: are all proposals like that or is there any formal and pompous declarations/celebrations?
  286. [12:33] <+madjack> I don't remember being proposed to.
  287. [12:33] <+madjack> Mainly because I was drunk at the time
  288. [12:33] <+Raven|bed> Well, I only found out I was married when McMasterdonia told me that he had signed us up for the 2014 Europeian Winter Ball and that I was to be there.
  289. [12:33] <@Mousebumples> i don't know much about other _proposals_ (given my opposition, i've mostly gotten flippant skype proposals recently) but in europeia, weddings themselves are usually a more pompous celebration
  290. [12:33] <+madjack> they can be excuses for RPed cultural events
  291. [12:33] <+madjack> which are always fun
  292. [12:34] <+Raven|bed> So he, playing the character of Hyacinth Bucket - decided everything for us. Our marriage was a political point.
  293. [12:34] <+Raven|bed> As we was MoFA TNP, I was MoFA TSP and the ball was in a mutual allied region - Euro
  294. [12:34] <@Mousebumples> i do love your RP relationship posts, Raven|bed
  295. [12:34] <+Raven|bed> and I was working on repairing TSPs relationship with Euro which had been butchered by past administrations in tSP
  296. [12:34] <+Kuramia> See RP is different though. I can RP about anything.
  297. [12:34] <+Raven|bed> Thank you Mouse! :D
  298. [12:34] <+madjack> but honestly I'd prefer to run a house like I'd run an oligarchy. choosing not partners but people I can provide patronage to.
  299. [12:35] <+madjack> and they can in turn do the same
  300. [12:35] <@Mousebumples> but do you need a family/house to do that?
  301. [12:35] <+madjack> and you can build an oligarchy through an NS family
  302. [12:35] <+madjack> I think a family link would perhaps keep them bound to you for longer
  303. [12:35] <+Raven|bed> I keep my family generally close to Alexandria
  304. [12:35] <@Mousebumples> i like to think that i've done the same thing, and i haven't felt hampered by not being a part of a family/house
  305. [12:36] <+Raven|bed> The family is meant to be there for Alexandria's development
  306. [12:36] <@Mousebumples> what are the advantages to "keeping them bound to you" ?
  307. [12:36] <+Raven|bed> not as a political faction elsewhere
  308. [12:36] <+Raven|bed> They aren't so much bound to me as bound to their committment to the family
  309. 03[12:37] * RavenFeather (~RavenFeat@cpc89612-cove14-2-0-cust28.3-1.cable.virginm.net) has joined #WomenNS
  310. [12:37] <+madjack> I approach gameplay as just another form of rp, so this is probably just me. But if I'm, for example, a junior member of House Ijustmadethisup and the person who brought me into the house and gave me like a junior ministerial position 6 months ago, then I'd be bound, by my understanding of the role I'm playing, to vote for them in an election
  311. [12:38] <@Mousebumples> ugh, and i hate that sort of horse trading
  312. [12:38] <+madjack> more so than if there isn't a house link and he's just given me a job
  313. [12:38] <@Mousebumples> i'd rather feel that i'm voting for someone _ because i think they'd be good at the job_ instead of feeling obligated by past political favors granted to me
  314. [12:38] <+madjack> because if he's just given me a job, then the next step for me would be... maybe take his job
  315. [12:39] <+Kuramia> See...then families start to sound like political parties to me.
  316. [12:41] <@Mousebumples> and political parties, at least, don't arguably objectify women in some ways
  317. [12:41] <@Mousebumples> another question from BenevolentThomas along these lines: Do NS families make women feel like commodities rather than contributing members to their communities?
  318. [12:41] <+ProfessorHenn> I agree with Kuramia. NS Families are political parties dressed as Game of Thrones' collection.
  319. [12:41] <+madjack> I think it varies.
  320. [12:41] <+madjack> I think families have in the past used a woman to build a cult of personality around, as have political factions
  321. [12:41] <+madjack> but at the same time there's also been at least a litle bit of encouragement of that from certain players
  322. [12:41] <+madjack> Whether they were uncomfortable with it or not, I don't know, but I can see why some of them would be.
  323. [12:41] <@Mousebumples> that's true - i'm sure we can all think of some players (male and female) in our regions/communities that have enjoyed having a group of hangers on to tell them how amazing they are
  324. [12:42] <+Kuramia> Yes, we can!
  325. 03[12:42] * Imki sets mode: +v RavenFeather
  326. [12:42] <@Mousebumples> lol - thank you obama? ;)
  327. [12:42] <@Mousebumples> to respond to BenevolentThomas's question - they don't void my value as a contributing member of my community, but for a newer female player who hasn't established herself yet as a _contributing member of the community_ ... i could see her feeling pigeonholed in that way
  328. [12:43] <@Mousebumples> do they want me to be active in the community? or is my main value to them just in marrying [player] ?
  329. [12:43] <+RavenFeather> I saw that in Alexandria once and I stamped down hard on the player trying it as it did border on harassment.
  330. [12:43] <+RavenFeather> He suddenly flocked to her when she posted a photo of herself abs
  331. [12:44] <@Mousebumples> but how much of it can we visibly _see_ since i'd think most of this would happen over PMs or IMs rather than on the public forum?
  332. [12:44] <@Mousebumples> i think discussions like this are a good start, but what more can and should we do?
  333. [12:44] <+RavenFeather> The attitudes he displayed were indicative if something being not quite right and she had withdrew a bit.
  334. [12:44] <+Kuramia> Stamp down on it as Raven did. Avoid it when it occurs. Talk about it when it goes beyond a simple question with a no response.
  335. [12:46] <+madjack> Encourage female players to report it, whether anonymously or not. And male players who do confront it when they see it need to not act like white knights
  336. 02[12:46] * +RavenFeather (~RavenFeat@cpc89612-cove14-2-0-cust28.3-1.cable.virginm.net) Quit (Quit: RavenFeather)
  337. [12:46] <+Raven|bed> Yes
  338. [12:47] <+madjack> a simple "you're making people feel uncomfortable" is a lot more effective than going "U R SEXIST AND OFFENSIVE AND U NEED TO STOP BANBANBANBANBAN"
  339. [12:47] <+madjack> a lot of the user base is like 14-16 year olds
  340. [12:47] <+Raven|bed> It needs to be made clear by any community with the house dynamic - or indeed any community that sees the need - that harassment is a no-go.
  341. [12:47] <@Mousebumples> Would you say that it's likely that a lot of these players making these inappropriate advances don't even understand that what they're doing is wrong?
  342. [12:47] <+madjack> and some of them get overly... familar is the word i'll use but i'm not sure its the right one, really easily
  343. [12:48] <+Raven|bed> Then in the event that it comes to our attention, they will be educated.
  344. [12:48] <+Raven|bed> If they fail to heed those lessons, then they will learn the hard way.
  345. [12:48] <+madjack> remembe Camwood, Raven?
  346. [12:48] <+Raven|bed> I do, married to Gov at one point yes?
  347. [12:48] <+Raven|bed> Or is that Camo?
  348. [12:48] <@Mousebumples> It seems obvious to us, but I can see some players - especially younger ones - just not realizing that they're crossing a line until they've crossed it. I know Sopo, for example, told me that he used to think it was funny to be crazily persistent in his proposals or something to that effect. And now, in retrospect, he can't believe he used to think that was okay.
  349. [12:48] <+madjack> i think that was camo. Camwood was involved in OSiris/UDL back when Earth was still playing
  350. 03[12:49] * Mousebumples sets mode: +v Darkesia
  351. [12:49] <+madjack> he was definitely won that needed to learn to chill
  352. [12:49] <+Raven|bed> The same rings a bell. I think they may have been either Sepatarchy or Cabinet
  353. [12:49] <+Darkesia> There is a whole internet community built around the family sexual fetish. This is why I have never participated in family political groups on NS, especially when they are used to generate RP. I could never be sure which ones were actually political and which were fetish based
  354. 03[12:50] * Zwangzug (webchat@s-169-232-187-18.resnet.ucla.edu) has joined #WomenNS
  355. [12:50] <+Kuramia> To be fair, the average human brain doesn't completely develop until age 25, so whenever I deal with people around or under that age, I recite that fact in my mind...so I don't murder them. :D
  356. [12:50] <+Raven|bed> <winces> Are there really some of the latter in NS, Dark?
  357. [12:50] <+Darkesia> Yes
  358. [12:51] <+Raven|bed> Merlin wept.
  359. [12:51] <@Mousebumples> that does not surprise me to hear - and i could also see it as something of a "competition" among some players
  360. [12:51] <+Raven|bed> I'll count myself lucky to have not encountered them.
  361. [12:51] <@Mousebumples> he's married, and i'm not, and now i need to find a wife so i can "catch up"
  362. [12:51] <+Raven|bed> And I'm very sorry to hear you did. yikes
  363. 06[12:51] * +Raven|bed places a large bowl of Chocolate Fudge Cake in front of Darkesia
  364. [12:52] <+madjack> i had that, but with GCR delegacies. "McM is tnp delegate, I need me one of mine."
  365. [12:52] <@Mousebumples> lol, i can understand that
  366. [12:52] <+Raven|bed> I know some houses seek a trophy cabinet
  367. [12:52] <@Mousebumples> i just wanted votes, i didn't care if it was a GCR or UCR ;)
  368. [12:52] <@Mousebumples> Does anyone here (and feel free to query me if you're not voiced and would like to be) know the history/origin of how NS families started?
  369. [12:53] <+madjack> I don't know how they started, but I'm pretty sure old old LKE had them way back in the mid 2000s
  370. [12:53] <+Raven|bed> I would imagine they started in the Imperial regions given their love of dynasties
  371. [12:53] <+Raven|bed> (has anyone seen the Somerset family tree? Case in point of the insanity of NS houses)
  372. [12:53] <@Mousebumples> i still love the story that unibot was r3n's step father >_>
  373. [12:54] <+Raven|bed> Oh gosh, yes I remember the story.
  374. [12:54] <+Raven|bed> (http://www.familyecho.com/?p=START&c=10iuhkxhdbn&f=707970665190692211)
  375. [12:56] <+madjack> wait, what story is this?
  376. [12:56] <@Mousebumples> earth adopted r3n, i believe
  377. [12:56] <@Mousebumples> earth then NS married unibot
  378. [12:56] <+Darkesia> Ancient History: The effective use of houses that aren't family based could be seen in Lemuria. Thel created houses that generated RP via geography and function. It worked because there was no gender role permeating its inception
  379. [12:56] <@Mousebumples> but raven might be thinking of a different story?
  380. [12:56] <+Kuramia> Sopo...is on that family tree twice? XD
  381. [12:57] <+madjack> XD
  382. [12:57] <+madjack> there used to be an anumia one knocking about with at least 100 members
  383. [12:57] <@Mousebumples> i think Darkesia has a good point - the gender roles (traditional or otherwise) with NS families is where some of the ... awkwardness and potential harassment comes out to play
  384. [12:57] <+madjack> and since technically both rach and NES are also anumias, all the somersets are as well
  385. [12:58] <+Kuramia> So NS family trees are worse than the Norse Gods.
  386. [12:59] <@Mousebumples> Not that we magically have the power to change things (if only!) but what changes would you like to see (if any) in the way NS GP families are run or organized or even advertised?
  387. [13:00] <+Raven|bed> r3n told me the specific story re: Unibot a little while ago
  388. [13:00] <+Kuramia> Take sex and gender out of it.
  389. [13:00] <+madjack> I was going to say I'd like to see them gone and started again but that would only open things up for even more intense potential harrassment. I think maybe I'd like for them to be de-emphasised in certain reigons.
  390. [13:00] <+madjack> Kuramia has the right idea though.
  391. [13:01] <@Mousebumples> or at least, as kuramia says, make it about "adoption" and "fostering" and less about 'marriage'
  392. [13:01] <@Mousebumples> i mean, if anything, it seems to be somewhat demeaning to those people who actually meet and marry IRL players they've met through NationStates
  393. [13:01] <+Darkesia> Rather than heading out of the gate with marriages or birthright, perhaps the advertising should be based on the role the family has within the region... A family for FA and one for Military etc?
  394. [13:02] <+madjack> that'd be a novel approach
  395. [13:02] <+Darkesia> Then make the RP genderless. (A difficult task)
  396. [13:03] <@Mousebumples> or it can be gendered - insofar as using appropriate pronouns - but stick to on-task RP rather than flirty/sexual RP/banter
  397. [13:04] <+Darkesia> Two players can marry, but it more like setting up as room mates who run a house to train and shelter their "children" in some regional task
  398. [13:05] <@Mousebumples> from BenevolentThomas: do families pigeonhole women into taking on maternal roles in their community?
  399. [13:06] <+Darkesia> Yes. But we often do that to ourselves as well
  400. [13:07] <+Raven|bed> I think it depends on the family
  401. [13:07] <+Raven|bed> and the community in question
  402. [13:08] <@Mousebumples> to me, it depends on what you mean by "maternal role"
  403. [13:08] <@Mousebumples> i do a lot of mentoring, which could be viewed as maternalistic ... but i don't do that because i'm a woman but because i have experiences to share
  404. [13:08] <+Darkesia> I get a better response from some region mates when I use maternal styled speech as opposed to "Dragon Lady" styled leadership. It is the same as real life. Everyone wants to please "Mom" but when Mom turns serious, she is to be villified
  405. [13:09] <+Kuramia> I don't see mentoring as particularly maternal or paternal.
  406. [13:12] <@Mousebumples> This has been an intersting discussion, and I think we've identified some potential issues within the NS Gameplay Family system. Thanks to everyone for attending and participating, and if any of the panelists have any final words to share, they're welcome to do so.
  407. [13:13] <+Raven|bed> An NS family should be a fun and fulfilling experience for everyone involved. If your friends aren't having the same amount of fun as you are, then there is something wrong. Please don't shy away from asking if they're alright - and above all else, look out for eachother.
  408. [13:14] <+Raven|bed> Regardless of their gender roles/identity - everyone has the right to feel safe and secure in a community and we each have a part to play in keeping people safe.
  409. [13:15] <@Mousebumples> I definitely agree, Raven. And I think that the NSGP community has made great strides over the past year or two with regards to harassment, and I'd hope that this discussion has raised some questions about what the proper role of NS families should be. I hope to see positive changes in that regard - perhaps due to community/society pressure - in the near future.
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  414.  
  415. Session Start: Thu Apr 07 13:56:19 2016
  416. Session Ident: #WomenNS
  417. 03[13:56] * Now talking in #WomenNS
  418. 03[13:56] * Topic is 'Women & NationStates Symposium - IRC Panel - #WomenNS_Chat for Chat'
  419. 03[13:56] * Set by Mousebumples on Wed Apr 06 09:51:24 2016
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  426. [15:08] <+ProfessorHenn> Well, I'd like to thank everyone for coming to this now, er, hours-long!, panel. Tune in soon for, uhh, another!
  427. 03[15:09] * Mousebumples sets mode: -v madjack
  428. 03[15:09] * Mousebumples sets mode: -v ProfessorHenn
  429. 03[15:09] * Mousebumples sets mode: -v Raven|bed
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  433. [15:53] <QuietDad> Darkesia and NeeNee should be voiced.... Just saying
  434. [15:53] #WomenNS Cannot send to channel
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  454. 03[18:59] * Mousebumples sets mode: +v Writinglegend
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  456. [19:00] <@Mousebumples> Welcome to the panel on Women & Military Gameplay. I've got a wide array of panelists tonight, and before we get into the "meat" of things, I'd like to have them introduce themselves and give a bit of a run-down of what their involvement has been in military gameplay over their time playing NationStates.
  457. [19:01] <@Ananke> Could we get a list of who's participating?
  458. [19:02] <@Mousebumples> on my list, i have Ananke, BenevolentThomas, Neenee, Rach, and Xoriet
  459. [19:02] <@Ananke> Alright. Well, figure I'll start then.
  460. [19:03] <@Mousebumples> Darkesia is certainly welcome to participate if she'd like (not sure if she's got much military gameplay experience?)
  461. [19:03] <@Mousebumples> and Writinglegend wasn't sure if he'd have time or not, so - as long as he's in channel, i figured i'd voice him if he wants to chime in at some point
  462. [19:03] <@Mousebumples> and, of course, if you think you have something to offer here (probably mostly looking for females in military gameplay or for male players that have either led operations/groups or worked extensively with females in military gameplay) give me a query and we'll go from there
  463. [19:03] <+BenevolentThomas> I'll go last.
  464. 03[19:03] * EMW (Mibbit@host86-189-216-129.range86-189.btcentralplus.com) has joined #WomenNS
  465. [19:03] <@Ananke> Hi. I'm Ananke. I've been playing since 2003, always as a defender. I started out in TNP and these days I'm hanging out in 10000 Islands. I've been around various defender orgs in my time, but I've primarily been involved in NPA, GLA, ADN and TITO.
  466. 03[19:04] * Sad-States (~Sad-State@cpe-173-88-181-86.neo.res.rr.com) has joined #WomenNS
  467. [19:04] <@Ananke> That's the short version. :P
  468. [19:04] <@Xoriet> I'll go after Ananke when she's done~
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  471. [19:06] <@Mousebumples> is she giving us a long version too?
  472. [19:06] <@Xoriet> Hi everyone, I'm Xoriet. I've been here since 2012, started military Gameplay in November 2013, and have been around ever since. I originated in TEP, and spent most of my military time in EPSA. I'm in The Black Hawks these days though.
  473. [19:07] <@Ananke> Not unless people want it or it makes sense for the discussion, Mouse.
  474. [19:08] <@Rach> Hey guys, I'm Rachel. I've been playing since 2007/2009, I started doing military stuff in 2010 and did a bit of informal defending with CC in FRA and informal raiding with Halc. Since then I've been part of ERN and the Jomsvikings mainly.
  475. [19:09] <+Neenee> Hello! I'm Neenee, and have been around since late 2003ish. I was in TWP for the most part, with venturing out heavily coming later on during The Empire. I haven't exactly been military, but I've been involved with the people running them and organizing them.
  476. [19:10] <+BenevolentThomas> Hello again! I'm Benevolent Thomas and I've been one of the more visible defenders as of late. I stated in 2012 as a member of TITO before joining a myriad of other organizations a few years down the road. I'm on this panel because I've worked extensively with strong female gameplayers during my years of defending.
  477. [19:11] <+BenevolentThomas> Started*
  478. [19:13] <@Mousebumples> so, from kudzu|TRUMP_2016 to start things off - is there any proof that women are equal to men?
  479. [19:13] <@Mousebumples> nothing like a baldfaced question to start things off
  480. [19:13] <@Xoriet> Of course there is, Durkypurky.
  481. [19:14] <+Darkesia> No. Women are far superior to men.
  482. [19:14] <@Rach> There is no proof whatsoever, women are clearly far superior, especially at coding and even at the IT stuff Durk does :)
  483. [19:14] <+Neenee> Exactly what Dark and Rach said, we're superior.
  484. [19:14] <@Xoriet> But the consensus is that women will always be best.
  485. [19:14] <+Neenee> JAL of all people should know that.
  486. [19:14] <+BenevolentThomas> I'd say they're quite equal. Considering the ration of female to male gameplayers, I'd also argue that women can even be more competent than their male counterparts per capita.
  487. [19:14] <+BenevolentThomas> ratio*
  488. [19:15] <+BenevolentThomas> I apologize for my inability to type/spell today
  489. [19:15] <@Xoriet> There are some militaries where their most successful and active times were under a female commander.
  490. [19:15] <@Ananke> Considering how often female players end up in leadership roles around NS in regions, which are mostly male dominated, I'd say yes.
  491. [19:15] <@Mousebumples> any particular examples you guys want to give? they can be personal accounts or just "i remember whens" about other female gameplayers of note
  492. [19:16] <+BenevolentThomas> Improving Wordiness
  493. [19:16] <+BenevolentThomas> taught me much of what I know about defending.
  494. [19:17] <+BenevolentThomas> She had the respect of her peers, her troops and she was feared by her enemies.
  495. [19:17] <@Ananke> Well, from my experience a lot of the success of ADN was due to Pope Hope. It was after she took over as Director that the org really grew. She was very good at spotting and nurturing talent.
  496. 02[19:17] * +Neenee (~Neenee@cpe-172-249-12-157.socal.res.rr.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 186 seconds)
  497. [19:18] <+BenevolentThomas> Let us not also mention Ananke, who has a defender award named after her :p
  498. [19:18] <+BenevolentThomas> It has been my pleasure to win that reward repeatedly.
  499. 03[19:18] * Zwangzug (webchat@carew.math.ucla.edu) has joined #WomenNS
  500. [19:19] <@Xoriet> In LWU and TBH in 2012-ish area, Tikal Wolf and Tramiar were highly influential, and both in commanding positions. TBH especially had a really good run around that time.
  501. 03[19:19] * Timchi (~Timchi139@node-1w7jr9qgjo9k7y1t08peehgml.ipv6.telus.net) has joined #WomenNS
  502. [19:19] <@Rach> Abbey ran her own group fairly successfully as well
  503. [19:19] <@Ananke> @ BenevolentThomas; Honestly, those awards were mostly named after the people the founder liked, so you probably shouldn't put too much stock in one of them being named after me. :P
  504. [19:20] <+BenevolentThomas> Stop being so modest.
  505. 03[19:20] * Neenee (~Neenee@cpe-172-249-12-157.socal.res.rr.com) has joined #WomenNS
  506. [19:20] <+BenevolentThomas> Xoriet was also the leader of the most active and competent independent military for at least a year.
  507. [19:21] <+BenevolentThomas> the EPSA is still reeling from her departure.
  508. 03[19:21] * Swith|Suppering is now known as Swith
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  510. [19:21] <@Xoriet> Yeah, I still feel a little guilty about that to this day.
  511. [19:22] <+BenevolentThomas> stop that
  512. [19:22] <+BenevolentThomas> They got to experience glory under your leadership.
  513. [19:22] <@Xoriet> But Ghost will fix it ^_^ and keep up the trend of female leaders in EPSA winning.
  514. [19:22] <+BenevolentThomas> that should be enough
  515. [19:22] <+Darkesia> My military experience is outdated in the technical area. But I have noticed that the new military focus on tech and tactics has happily killed that old mistrust of female players that we used to face. Do you find this to be true as well?
  516. [19:23] <+Darkesia> (sorry to interrupt)
  517. [19:23] <@Rach> mistrust of female players?
  518. [19:23] <@Ananke> Speaking of which, that's one thing I've really had to work on. I've always found it really hard to put myself forward, so my involvement in Gameplay has often been due to circumstance rather than a conscious decision to get involved. Have any of you had trouble with that?
  519. [19:23] <@Rach> like that they couldn't do military stuff?
  520. 03[19:24] * Vetelo (Mibbit@d75-155-72-51.abhsia.telus.net) has joined #WomenNS
  521. [19:24] <@Xoriet> Mistrust of female players in military Gameplay...I haven't really seen examples of it in my time around here.
  522. [19:24] <+Darkesia> Rach, like they couldn't be trusted to participate without spoiling it in some way. Not so much competence as emotional competence
  523. [19:25] <@Xoriet> I do know of at least one person who thinks that women don't have the spirit to be proper leaders even with evidence to the contrary.
  524. [19:25] <@Ananke> Hmm, I don't remember experiencing that.
  525. [19:25] <@Rach> I've had a tiny bit of that, given that COINCIDENTALLY I said "oh fuck we did it" when TRR was taken over by Onder
  526. [19:25] <@Rach> so that's just more me than anything else
  527. [19:25] <@Mousebumples> What about mistrust of female players because of instances where male players pretended to be a female for espionage purposes? has that impacted the level of trust within military organizations as a result?
  528. [19:26] <+Darkesia> It may have been a raider thing, Ananke. I lied about my gender almost every time I successfully participated in military play directly
  529. [19:26] <@Ananke> I've never felt that people in the orgs I've been a member of thought I'd be worse at defending because I was female. But then, I always just expected them to follow my lead and if they didn't I would've gotten really pissed, since I knew I was better at it than most of them.
  530. [19:27] <@Rach> I try not to worry too much about spies, that sort of stuff becomes a headache. Generally I try to have a long history with those I raid with.
  531. [19:27] <+BenevolentThomas> I don't think I would have been able to get away with doubting female members as they were my superior officers :D
  532. [19:28] <@Xoriet> From my experience, if you work hard and show that you know what you're doing, you aren't going to be doubted because of gender.
  533. [19:28] <+Darkesia> That's how I treat things now, Ananke. In fact, despite my feminine avatars, I am often mistaken for male. I think it's the way I post when I'm playing rather than socializing
  534. [19:28] <@Ananke> Most of the spies I'm aware of in the places I've been hasn't used female personas.
  535. [19:29] <@Rach> sometimes I get people questioning and giving suggestions, but I feel that's because they're a bit more annoying I think :p
  536. 03[19:29] * Mousebumples sets mode: +v Neenee
  537. 03[19:29] * ZennySleeping is now known as Zenny
  538. [19:30] <@Ananke> I'm wondering whether the tendency of spies using female personas to flirt with might affect how some people view female players overall though. I mean, the accusation that female players use flirting to gain advantages, does that come from female players doing it, male spies doing it or a mix?
  539. [19:30] <@Xoriet> I mean I've seen it in politics, but have never once encountered it no matter how much I try to think of an example.
  540. [19:30] <@Xoriet> (In military Gameplay)
  541. [19:30] <+BenevolentThomas> I've only ever been spied on by a female once and she never flirted with me.
  542. [19:31] <@Xoriet> I mean some female players totally flirt, but most of the ones I know really don't.
  543. [19:31] <@Rach> BT is still scarred
  544. [19:31] <@Xoriet> #scarredforlife
  545. [19:31] <@Rach> #alwaysalone :(
  546. [19:31] <@Mousebumples> From Zwangzug: Have you (women military players) ever felt like you're being pressured to contribute more than your share? If so, how can you tell whether that's due to implicit biases on the part of your commanding officers, or just a lot of trust in you as an individual? Is that a feasible distinction?
  547. [19:31] <+Neenee> There are times when flirting is a good tactic. It's not an all the time thing, though.
  548. [19:31] <@Rach> I don't think I've ever flirted in NS
  549. [19:32] <@Ananke> Yeah, and I don't think it's fair to see flirting as just a tactic whenever a girl does it. I mean, it can just be fun sometimes.
  550. [19:32] <@Xoriet> Agreed with that
  551. [19:32] <+Neenee> It is fun
  552. [19:33] <+BenevolentThomas> It makes updates go by faster :D
  553. [19:33] <+Neenee> And 99% of the time when I flirt, it is just fun. But, I'd be lying if I didn't do it once or twice to get someone more comfortable with talking to me.
  554. [19:33] <@Xoriet> Only for trolls like you =P
  555. [19:33] <@Ananke> I don't think I've been pressured to more than my share, but I've definitely have some of my NS mentors push me outside my comfort zone to get more involved with areas of NS I thought I wouldn't be good at. I'm grateful for that though or I would've stayed a lurker forever.
  556. [19:34] <+BenevolentThomas> I'd say I push female players harder than men.
  557. [19:34] <@Rach> do you girls and guy feel that flirting in military chats is more prevalent than other places
  558. [19:34] <@Rach> ?
  559. [19:34] <@Mousebumples> BenevolentThomas - why is that?
  560. [19:34] <@Xoriet> Who flirts in military chats o.O
  561. [19:34] <@Ananke> In the common 'chats areas' or between individuals, Rach?
  562. [19:35] <@Rach> either or
  563. [19:35] <+Neenee> I've generally felt like I had to do more to... justify... the success I've had. I know some people thought it was handed to me, and I thought I needed to go above/beyond to show I could actually do it.
  564. 03[19:35] * Darkesia is now known as DarkDriving
  565. [19:35] <@Xoriet> Then again I guess Sev and I have flirted in military chats, so I take that back
  566. [19:35] <+BenevolentThomas> Its just the women I've been surrounded with. Wordy, Ananke, Xoriet, Storm - all really good defenders.
  567. [19:35] <@Xoriet> <.<
  568. [19:35] <@Ananke> Hmm, as a female defender I do think I got more attention from the guys than a guy in the same position would've gotten, at least sometimes.
  569. [19:35] <@Rach> I feel the same way Neenee
  570. [19:35] <@Mousebumples> so it's less that you push them harder _because they're female_ and more because they're kickass?
  571. [19:36] <@Rach> always having to work harder and have more success than male players for the same recognition
  572. 06[19:36] * +Neenee nods
  573. [19:36] <@Mousebumples> and for Neenee and Rach - is it ever a matter of wanting to prove the doubters wrong? "oh, you don't think i can do it? i'll show you .... "
  574. [19:36] <+BenevolentThomas> I'm looking for the next big leader to emerge in the defender world and I've always followed women.
  575. [19:36] <@Ananke> I've had that feeling too Neenee, but I think it has been more due to my own insecurity rather than because I felt that people didn't respect my accomplishment unless I was better than the rest.
  576. [19:37] <+Neenee> Mouse, yes. For me at least, yes. I have had the "Orly? I'll show you"
  577. [19:37] <@Xoriet> I think some female players in situations might feel a need to push themselves harder because they're surrounded by ambitious, prideful male players
  578. [19:38] <+Neenee> I've noticed the age of the male player makes a difference. And that is obviously a generalization, but part of it holds.
  579. [19:38] <+Neenee> I've had issues, throughout my time here, with teenagers. Less often grown men.
  580. [19:38] <@Xoriet> The younger male players tend to be a lot pushier and less tolerant with rejections of flirtation
  581. [19:38] <@Rach> That's true, it also depends on the culture they come from.
  582. [19:38] <@Mousebumples> "culture" - regional? or RL?
  583. 02[19:40] * Dali (~Dali@2607:fea8:4e0:210:955e:6fcd:c902:384a) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
  584. [19:41] <@Xoriet> Regional culture may contribute. A lot of the cases I've seen came from TBR or TBR-DEN.
  585. [19:41] <@Rach> regional and yeah....
  586. [19:42] <@Ananke> I think I've mostly been lucky enough to avoid those kind of players.
  587. [19:42] <+BenevolentThomas> because you're a defender ;)
  588. [19:42] <@Mousebumples> along those same lines, we have this question from frattastan: I read some pretty harsh statements on Pope Hope coming from her opponents ("if she were male would not have accomplished nearly as much because her fanboy base would have been greatly diminished"). Was this kind of attacks common towards other female leaders too before Influence? I still see it thrown around, but in a way more
  589. [19:42] <@Mousebumples> subtle/less explicit way.
  590. [19:43] <+Neenee> I mostly heard it about PopeHope
  591. [19:43] <@Rach> I don't think it's because you're a defender... I mean he who shall not be named was a defender
  592. [19:43] <@Ananke> Pope Hope was really good with people, so I don't think her accomplishments had that much to do with her being female.
  593. [19:43] <+Neenee> But there were variations of it here and there towards others, implying that the gender and the fact that others were male had a lot to do with it.
  594. [19:44] <+Neenee> She was, Ananke, yea.
  595. [19:44] <+Neenee> I don't think being female *hurt* though
  596. [19:44] <+Neenee> Other than dealing with the "You have fanboys because you're a girl"
  597. [19:44] <+BenevolentThomas> He who must not be named harassed women, not discriminated on their ability to be military leaders IIRC.
  598. [19:44] <@Ananke> The NPO tended to concentrate their propaganda on Pope Hope and it got pretty nasty at times, so in my opinion that's where that view originates and has propagated from-
  599. [19:44] <@Ananke> Yes, I think her gender was used to undermine her by her opponents.
  600. [19:45] <@Xoriet> <BenevolentThomas> He who must not be named harassed women, not discriminated on their ability to be military leaders IIRC. <--- Yeah, that's true. He was really pushy about me being EPSA General.
  601. [19:46] <@Xoriet> To be fair he also wanted my predecessor out of power to further his defender agenda but...yeah.
  602. [19:46] <@Ananke> I don't remember Pope Hope flirting that much though. She was very good at making friends though and getting them to join Nasicournia/ADN.
  603. [19:46] <+Neenee> I don't think I saw her flirt much, but she posted *tons* of pictures of herself
  604. [19:46] <@Ananke> That's true.
  605. [19:47] <+Neenee> The assumption/accusation that fratt referenced was blatently not true though. PH was talented, and a good leader. She didn't have to use being female to get that.
  606. [19:47] <@Rach> And if a guy did that, there would be no complaints :p
  607. [19:47] <+BenevolentThomas> Is that a suggestion?
  608. [19:48] <@Mousebumples> re: Rach -case in point - he who shall not be named
  609. [19:48] <@Rach> my TG box could always use nice surprises
  610. [19:48] <@Mousebumples> from Swith: Does gender make a difference when it comes to where players flock? Are women more prone to defend than men? Are men more apt to raid than women?
  611. [19:48] <+BenevolentThomas> its more of a regional divide than gameplay divide
  612. [19:49] <@Ananke> In the early days there was definitely a lot more female players defending than raiding, but at this point it seems more equal.
  613. [19:50] <@Xoriet> I don't know about that. I mean I think EPSA flourished because of the atmosphere rather than anything to do with gender. And based on raiding today, I would say that there are enough female raiders. They just aren't as "all-star" as defender elites like Wordy and Ananke.
  614. [19:50] <@Ananke> To be honest though, a lot of the early raider groups were teenage boys, who weren't were good at what they did, so I doubt a lot of female players would've enjoyed being around them.
  615. 03[19:51] * Brunhilde (~Brunhilde@184-14-123-127.dsl1.chtn.wv.frontiernet.net) has joined #WomenNS
  616. 03[19:51] * ChanServ sets mode: +o Brunhilde
  617. [19:52] <+BenevolentThomas> I think women are more likely to gravitate to more mature groups/regions. Its about personality rather than gameplay identity, just like it is with males (at the start, that is)
  618. [19:54] <@Mousebumples> From a societal perspective, women are oftentimes told to be humble and that bragging is unattractive. Men ... oftentimes don't get this memo. Ananke was humble about her accomplishments above when I think we can objectively say that she's been damn impressive as a defender over the years. Is this something that you see as a concern, when it comes to political advancement or something else
  619. [19:54] <@Mousebumples> within NS? Do female players need to do a better job of saying, "Here's all the great things I did?"
  620. [19:54] <@Xoriet> I agree with BT there. I wouldn't want to be in a region composed of immature kids.
  621. [19:54] <+BenevolentThomas> Yes, Mouse
  622. [19:54] <+Neenee> Yes
  623. [19:54] <+BenevolentThomas> Women are far too humble and quick to apologize.
  624. [19:54] <+Neenee> There's no reason to downplay it, or be modest
  625. [19:55] <@Ananke> I think it might also depend on where you end up to start with and the people you get to knoe. I kinda got into defending at the start because a couple of the people I admired in TNP were defender leaning. Who knows where I'd be today if I'd started out in The Pacific?
  626. [19:55] <@Xoriet> Ugh you two. Stop being accurate.
  627. [19:55] <@Xoriet> It makes me feel bad for doing all four of those.
  628. 03[19:56] * DarkDriving is now known as Darkesia
  629. [19:56] <+BenevolentThomas> Out of this panel, I'm probably the one with the assumed largest ego.
  630. [19:56] <@Ananke> It can be really hard to get rid of the tendency to be modest though. At least, I still find myself struggling with it.
  631. [19:56] <+Neenee> My ego is barely noticable.
  632. [19:56] <+Neenee> >_>
  633. [19:56] <+BenevolentThomas> In actuality, I may be the least cualified ass-kicker here.
  634. [19:56] <+BenevolentThomas> qulaified*
  635. [19:56] <@Xoriet> Nee has an ego? Really?
  636. [19:56] <+BenevolentThomas> qualified**
  637. [19:56] <@Xoriet> This is news!
  638. [19:56] <@Rach> Definitely the least qualified speller ;)
  639. [19:57] <+BenevolentThomas> I'm on something, evidently.
  640. [19:57] <@Xoriet> BT, I'm pretty sure you almost always beat me into every region we defended ever. =P
  641. [19:57] <+BenevolentThomas> maybe being around women makes me nervous :P
  642. [19:57] <@Mousebumples> BenevolentThomas, whatever happened to "ladies first" ?
  643. [19:57] <+BenevolentThomas> I'm a competitor first.
  644. [19:57] <@Xoriet> When defending, "ladies first" needs to be put on hold.
  645. [19:57] <@Ananke> I don't think the way I act in NS has made it harder for me to advance though.
  646. [19:58] <@Xoriet> I'm sure the defenders would appreciate it if the raiders adopted that rule though =D
  647. [19:58] <+BenevolentThomas> Ladies first has no place on the battlefield.
  648. [19:58] <+BenevolentThomas> Now, if they leave me in the dust of their own merit, I'm the first to commend it.
  649. [19:59] <@Xoriet> The only accomplishments I talk about openly are those when I beat everyone or almost everyone into a region
  650. [19:59] <@Ananke> My advancement has often come through being asked to take on a role though. I suppose a guy might've gone directly for a position instead of waiting for it to be offered?
  651. [19:59] <+Darkesia> Bingo, Ananke. That is me as well
  652. [19:59] <@Rach> I've never really advanced through military ranks, I have always either been appointed to lead stuff or just led it anyway
  653. [20:00] <@Rach> so I don't have this experience :p
  654. [20:00] <+BenevolentThomas> I've only ever pursued one position before and didnt even get it.
  655. [20:00] <@Xoriet> I didn't pursue my position in EPSA, I just had it forced on me by circumstances =P
  656. [20:00] <+BenevolentThomas> and popular demand
  657. [20:00] <+Neenee> I was gently shoved into positions at first
  658. [20:00] <+Neenee> and then really liked it
  659. [20:01] <+Neenee> So I started not waiting to be asked >_>
  660. [20:01] <@Xoriet> Popular demand was part of circumstance
  661. [20:01] <@Ananke> Yeah, I'm not really talking about military rank here, but advancement in general; regional, political, military etc. Most of the defender orgs I've been in didn't have ranks. They kept it simple; leaders and followers. :P
  662. [20:02] <+BenevolentThomas> Weren't you TO while you were Delegate in 10KI, Ananke?
  663. [20:02] <@Ananke> I've pursued some positions as well, but mostly after I got more experienced and felt surer of my skills.
  664. [20:03] <@Ananke> I was, but a rather crappy one, since I didn't have time to spot while I was delegate, so I functioned more as an advisor during that time.
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  666. [20:04] <+Darkesia> Dilber taught me to defend and raid sent me out into the NS world. I rose to leadership in Invaders (yes the org) as a male. I demanded the position and it felt so strange...
  667. [20:04] <+BenevolentThomas> I'm jealous. I wanted to stay as TO when I was delegate >_>
  668. [20:05] <+Darkesia> But the second time I was Delegate in TWP, I just said, "Hey, I want another shot at it. Cool?"
  669. [20:05] <@Rach> Are ranks more of a raider thing then?
  670. [20:05] <@Ananke> At that point in time I thought being delegate was more fun than tactical officer anyway.
  671. [20:05] <+Neenee> Dark, the environment in TWP is generally good for women in that regard. That makes a difference.
  672. [20:05] <+Neenee> Or it was, at least. I doubt that's changed.
  673. [20:06] <@Ananke> From what I've seen ranks in defender orgs is a newer thing and I honestly don't get what the point of them are,
  674. [20:06] <+BenevolentThomas> they just serve as a motivating tool.
  675. [20:06] <@Mousebumples> ^ that's my understanding too
  676. [20:06] <@Ananke> To me, all you need is to divide people into those good at spotting and then rest and you're set. :P
  677. [20:07] <@Ananke> *the rest
  678. [20:07] <+Darkesia> Ranks are designed to stroke egos. So they are held in high regard any place there are gatherings of pubescent males (excuse the misandry)
  679. [20:07] <@Rach> see to me the ranks are there to encourage people to work harder
  680. [20:07] <@Rach> become more of a stakhanovite
  681. [20:07] <+BenevolentThomas> Ananke, do you think TITO would be as motivated if people weren't striving to attain Knighthood?
  682. [20:07] <+BenevolentThomas> Its a major status symbol.
  683. [20:07] <+Neenee> People like being rewarded. Ranks are a reward.
  684. [20:08] <@Ananke> Getting battlestars for each defense mission when I joined TITO was such a new concept for me. I'd never previously thought about how many regions I defended.
  685. [20:09] <@Ananke> Probably not, and I'm ok with that one extra level. I'd just hate to have to keep count of which level every is at all the time. Ugh.
  686. [20:09] <@Rach> actually most regions likely don't do enough rewards for military service
  687. 06[20:09] * +Darkesia nods I understand the motivation behind it. I didn't say it was a bad thing.
  688. [20:09] <@Rach> I know in Europeia the rewards for recruiting were much more developed than those for military service
  689. [20:09] <@Rach> when theoretically they could be applied in the same way...
  690. [20:09] <@Mousebumples> take part in 100 ops and get a medal? ;)
  691. [20:11] <+BenevolentThomas> quite literally how it works
  692. [20:11] <+Darkesia> The work in tracking that seems extraordinary. If there is someone willing to do the administrative work, then it can be a great tool for motivation. But get it wrong once, and you have a mutiny
  693. [20:11] <@Ananke> I think, in ADN and GLA what kept people active was the community, so there was no need of ranks + everyone count contribute how much they wanted. You didn't need to have a specific rank to post about an invasion. People just naturally graduated towards either leading defenses or following, depending on their temperament and interests.
  694. 03[20:13] * HannahB (~HannahB@36.40.9.51.dyn.plus.net) has left #WomenNS
  695. [20:13] <@Mousebumples> all right, well, i think that the panel is winding down - thanks to each of you for participating. any final words before we finish up?
  696. 02[20:13] * Zwangzug (webchat@carew.math.ucla.edu) Quit (Ping timeout: 195 seconds)
  697. [20:13] <+Darkesia> We have established that we females need to toot our own horn more often.
  698. [20:14] <@Rach> exactly Mouse
  699. [20:14] <@Rach> I don't think Euro has that, does it? :D
  700. [20:14] <@Ananke> Mostly that it's been my experience that skills count for a lot in Military Gameplay, so if you're good at it most places will let you advance based on that.
  701. [20:14] <@Rach> although the problem with that is then you're encouraging that sort of let's do 100 ops in an update mentality
  702. [20:14] <@Rach> like tag raiders
  703. [20:15] <@Mousebumples> oooh, do we need to talk about predator and what impact - if any - we think the change that ballo's working on will impact things?
  704. [20:15] <@Mousebumples> (is not a military gameplayer or a techie and has no clue, but ... )
  705. [20:15] <+BenevolentThomas> do not be afraid to pursue greatness. If any men try to stand in your way, knock them straight over. If you are the better leader, then you deserve to be in charge.
  706. [20:16] <+BenevolentThomas> and your military deserves to have the best person for the job.
  707. [20:17] <+Neenee> ^
  708. [20:17] <+Darkesia> Nicely put, Thomas
  709. [20:17] <+BenevolentThomas> On that note, if you are a better defender than I am, please emerge.
  710. [20:18] <@Ananke> I also think it's worth remembering that many male players in military gameplay are happy to help a female player along, as friends with no flirting or creepiness involved. :P
  711. 03[20:18] * Nee (~Neenee@cpe-172-249-12-157.socal.res.rr.com) has joined #WomenNS
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  714. 03[20:19] * Neenja is now known as Neenee
  715. 03[20:23] * Mousebumples sets mode: -v BenevolentThomas
  716. 03[20:23] * Mousebumples sets mode: +v Neenee
  717. 03[20:23] * Mousebumples sets mode: +v Zenny
  718. 03[20:23] * Mousebumples sets mode: +v Swith
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  720. 03[20:46] * Mousebumples sets mode: +v kudzu|TRUMP_2016
  721. 03[20:53] * Mousebumples sets mode: -v kudzu|TRUMP_2016
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  723. 03[20:59] * MalevolentThomas is now known as Benevolent
  724. [21:00] <@Mousebumples> Welcome to the Women & NS Symposium panel - Kicking Ass and Taking Names on NationStates.
  725. [21:00] <@Mousebumples> For people reading that and wondering "what the hell is this about?" ... let me tell you. ^_^
  726. [21:01] <@Mousebumples> This is more about trying to build up a player's self-esteem and maybe sharing our stories of how we got to be confident kickass women on NS. So many players on this game are in high school, where there's constant assaults on your self-esteem. Am I good enough? Why doesn't everyone like me? If we can offer some advice or suggestions - for male or female players - that's the end goal here
  727. [21:01] <@Mousebumples> . And to talk up how kickass and awesome we are too. ^_^
  728. [21:01] <@Mousebumples> So for starters, why don't we get a run down of who's all participating in our all-female panel tonight?
  729. [21:02] <@Rach> I'm hereish :)
  730. [21:02] <@Rach> working on an essay though :(
  731. [21:02] <@Xoriet> Also here
  732. [21:02] <+Darkesia> Present
  733. [21:02] <@Ananke> Here too.
  734. [21:03] <+Kuramia> *waves* I'm Kuramia! I've been on NS since 2011. I played for a while in the background cause...well I could see how tough some people were...and then too a hiatus to get my stuff together in real life. And now I'm back and really into the scene, at least in my region! :P
  735. [21:04] <@Ananke> I'm in 10ki these days, where I've been delegate a couple of times. Outside that I've held various leadership positions in TNP (back in the day) and a number of defender orgs.
  736. [21:05] <@Mousebumples> we'll see if anyone else joins in while we're talking, but this ties in pretty well with what we were talking about in the last panel - about how sometimes it can be difficult for women to take credit for all the awesome things we've done. so i guess i'll start with this question: what are you most proud of in all your time in nationstates - and why?
  737. [21:05] <@Brunhilde> Heya! I'm Brunhilde and I've been playing since December of 2014 with time spent in a few different regions in different roles for each. I've been President of TCB, Foreign Secretary of KGB, and Culture Minister/Senator of Europeia!
  738. [21:06] <@Xoriet> I'm in TBH these days largely, and chat around, but I was TEP for the longest time and it will always be my home region.
  739. 02[21:07] * Gladio (Mibbit@62.162.165.38) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
  740. [21:07] <+Darkesia> I'm proud of my second run as TWP Delegate. But strangely I'm most proud of TWP as a region for the way everyone came together during the last zombie event. Everyone was great the way they worked as a cohesive team.
  741. [21:08] <+Darkesia> And the fact that I built and organized that team makes me proud
  742. [21:08] <@Brunhilde> There's not a whole lot that I can point to as single defining moments given my limited experience, especially having taken half a year off, but I'd say the most obvious achievement I made was starting the Status of Forces Agreement between TCB and Europeia. While it's dead now, at the time it really signified to me that I had a voice in Foreign Affairs and, in my own eyes, gave me some legitimacy.
  743. [21:08] <@Ananke> I've actually got a number of things I'm particularly proud of. Being part of building up TNP in the early days, helping take down Great Bight, fighting against Pixiedance. Gaining membership of the defender group GLA. Being Secretary of State in ADN. My times as delegate in 10ki and all the work I've done, working with new nations there.
  744. [21:11] <+Kuramia> I'm proud that I've come so far so fast in Europeia. I joined just thinking I'd try it out, and pretty soon I was Chair of the CA, and then a Minister, and it's just been nice. I like that my skills are acknowledged and no one's really approached me concerning my sex.
  745. [21:11] <+Darkesia> I had a run as Gatesville's Delegate. I admit having that enormous military at my beck and call was intoxicating. But I didn't build it. Only pointed an pulled the trigger. So it isn't a particular source of pride.
  746. [21:12] <@Mousebumples> I'm going to poke my head in on this one too, since i'm kinda pulling double duty on this one as moderator/contributor, depending on if i feel i have something else to add to the conversation. If I could only pick _one_ thing, it would probably be relating to my WA authorship, and notably my "Month of Mouse" in September of like 2013 or something, when I repealed 2 resolutions (that other
  747. [21:12] <@Mousebumples> players had tried - and failed - to repeal repeatedly) and passed 3 replacements. I was the only one to pass any resolutions in September, and I'm quite proud of that biomedical rights grouping. I'm also proud of the impacts that I had on the Citizens' Assembly and Ministry of Interior in Europeia. Both have changed notably since I was really active there, but I think it helped to set the
  748. [21:12] <@Mousebumples> tone for the future developments we've made in both areas. And, back in the early days of Monkey Island, I'm proud of myself (and my region) for arranging a refound when we were raided like 10 years ago. I didn't do it alone (many thanks, still, to Texas), but I pulled the trigger on making everything happen - and ensuring I snagged the refound.
  749. [21:13] <@Ananke> For me some of the things which makes me proud, is where I stepped out of my comfort zone and found out that hey, I'm actually pretty good at this thing, which I always thought I'd be crappy at.
  750. [21:14] <@Xoriet> I think what I was proudest of was what I did in EPSA. Building it up and making it operate is probably the biggest accomplishment I've managed given my scope. The region even gave a sort of commendation for it in totality. TBH I made it up to Sergeant so far, but EPSA is always going to be my moment to me.
  751. 03[21:15] * Torsii (webchat@216.50.74.164) has joined #WomenNS
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  753. [21:16] <+Darkesia> Neutral Territory is a source of pride for me. I had almost forgotten that conference. I managed to pull that off without injecting too much bias and I felt very strongly about it at the time. So, Go Me, for not making it about me and instead about the game.
  754. [21:16] <@Mousebumples> along the lines of what Ananke said, as much as it sometimes sucks to move outside of your comfort zone and challenge yourself, that's where some of the proudest moments can come from. do you have any suggestions for other players or stories to tell about how things went from being uncomfortable to "hey, i'm actually pretty good at this! ^_^" ?
  755. [21:17] <+Neenee> This might sound silly, but I was always really proud of my ability to endotart. It's something anyone can do, but it was something I knew I did well, without having to count on anyone else. Otherwise, Empire is one of my largest points of pride.
  756. 02[21:18] * Torsii (webchat@216.50.74.164) Quit (Client Quit)
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  758. [21:18] <@Ananke> I started out in a feeder and never wanted to be delegate. I thought I'd be bad at recruiting, endotarting and chatting with random people, so it was a bit of a revelation to join 10ki, get involved with those things and find out 1) that I was good at it and 2) that I enjoyed doing it.
  759. 03[21:18] * Thomas__ (~Thomas@184-91-195-253.res.bhn.net) has joined #WomenNS
  760. [21:18] <@Xoriet> I started off as a complete noob and worked my way up through ranks with a lot of dedication. After a bad event, I ended up promoted way too soon for my tastes. But for some reason, I didn't end up failing the way I'd worried about. Instead I made friends, got allies, and ran a number of successful operations that way. A lot of influence I have comes from making the right friends.
  761. [21:18] <@Rach> I was scared of being a delegate too... I was worried about being in the limelight
  762. [21:19] <@Rach> spotlight
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  764. [21:20] <@eh> 9:05 PM <Mousebumples> what are you most proud of in all your time in nationstates - and why?
  765. 03[21:20] * Thomas__ is now known as BenevolentThomas
  766. [21:20] <@Brunhilde> I started out trying my hand at legislative affairs and I absolutely hated it. From there I moved to Culture and, while I enjoyed it, it wasn't really my favorite. It wasn't until Zenny gave me a chance in TCB as her Foreign Secretary that I really felt I had found something I could really call my own. It was weird and clunky at first, given how little people know me and how exposed it was, but I found it let me meet peopl
  767. [21:21] <+Darkesia> My time in TP cured me of any fear I might have had of the Delegates seat. Moo never ran things, it only appeared that way. So in a way, it was a trial run for my tarting, chatting and general schmoozing skills. It was good in that respect
  768. 02[21:21] * Thomas_ (~Thomas@184-91-195-253.res.bhn.net) Quit (Ping timeout: 201 seconds)
  769. [21:21] <+Neenee> Empire was a big point of pride for me, because getting some of those people to work together was not easy. And we did things that weren't supposed to be able to be done anymore. It was building something that would last, and that felt amazing.
  770. 03[21:21] * S_Lyricalia (webchat@146-115-25-132.c3-0.frm-ubr1.sbo-frm.ma.cable.rcn.com) has joined #WomenNS
  771. [21:21] <+Neenee> And, it got me a second delegate seat, and I loved that >_>
  772. [21:21] <@eh> While I've done a lot of things in my time on NS, what I'm most glad I've done was running the NS Improviser. For those unaware, NSI was NS's literary magazine, and it lasted for bat a year and a half. I'm glad I was able to show people how much literary and artistic talent there is on NS, and that A&F is more than threads about music.
  773. [21:22] <@Xoriet> I wrote something for NSI once. I was proud of that =P
  774. [21:22] <+Kuramia> Getting out 15 articles in my term of Minister of Communications. And I say, if you can commit to it, don't say no. It's okay to try something out and see if you enjoy it. I've absolutely loved Foreign Affairs since I became a part of it. Just lurking on forums and watching and learned who people are and how they handle things...tickles my fancy!
  775. [21:22] <@Ananke> For quite a while I was forum admin in TNP, which was really out of my comfort zone. I was unlucky enough to be sole admin during one of the nastiest periods in TNPs history. I really didn't enjoy it and spent a lot of time questioning myself. Looking back though, I really don't think anyone could've done a better job, so in a weird way, the fact that I stuck it out in that situation for so long feels like an accomplishment to me.
  776. [21:22] <@eh> Xoriet was the first to ever submit to NSI!
  777. [21:22] <@Xoriet> I was indeed :D
  778. [21:22] <@Mousebumples> I remember when I returned to Europeia in fall of 2013, I didn't really want to get involved in much of anything in a leadership capacity. (The region was ginormously huge compared to what I was used to!) But I'd always had a special place in my heart for the Citizens' Assembly, and I felt that that was somewhere I could make an impact.
  779. [21:22] <@Mousebumples> But I didn't want to get involved with the other Ministries or anything. When I was elected CA Chair, it went really well, and people kept telling me that I should join the Interior Ministry ... but I kept saying now. President Anumia ended up approaching me to be his Interior Minister, and he had to talk me into it because I didn't think I'd be good at it.
  780. [21:23] <@Mousebumples> .... I. Love. Interior. So I have him to thank for that. And from there, it just grew. I stayed as Interior Minister for a stretch. And then Malashaan asked me to be his Vice President. And then I ran for President.
  781. [21:23] <@Mousebumples> And now I'm in what I affectionately call my "post-political" phase in Europeia because I don't plan to run for political office again, but none of _that_ would have been possible, and it was all because of pushing myself to try new things and see what was all out there for me to tackle.
  782. [21:23] <@Mousebumples> *kept saying no
  783. [21:23] <@eh> In Gameplay, while I've never held an important delegacy or anything of that sort, or even every been on a single region's political scene for an extended period of time, I've done a fair amount of legal work and helped at least a couple people finagle their way out of getting ejected.
  784. [21:24] <@eh> To any new players reading this: law is not a good way to make friends.
  785. [21:24] <@eh> But it's a great way to spend your time none the less.
  786. [21:25] <@eh> You certainly won't make a lot of friends — in fact, a number of people will become vehemently opposed to you — but those you defend, if that's the path you take, will be grateful.
  787. [21:25] <@Mousebumples> i'd think it depends on your friends. i know a few guys in europeia that love to argue and debate the finer points of law. at one point, one accused another of "taking all the fun out of it" by writing up a legal opinion draft rather than arguing about it on principle for a few days first. ^_^
  788. [21:25] <+Darkesia> Foreign Affairs IMO is the best way to gain political influence and advance a career, if you are new and looking to run things one day.
  789. [21:25] <+Neenee> I totally agree, Dark
  790. [21:26] <+Neenee> The networking is a huge plus
  791. [21:26] <@Mousebumples> and, honestly, if you're a friendly person, if you're willing to put yourself out there and try to make contacts, you can really build up a FA portfolio without having to know the history on everything - provided you have friends who can clue you in when needeed
  792. [21:26] <@Ananke> That's true. Creating contacts around NS is never a wasted effort.
  793. [21:26] <@Mousebumples> sometimes i wonder if my "gender" helped me in that way - women tend to naturally be more nurturing and friendly (overall), and while there's nothing nefarious about it, i'm not above using my predisposition to be friendly to gain contacts and friendships
  794. [21:26] <@eh> It is a little unfortunate that one must practice foreign affairs to be involved in it: I think it'd be nice if there were a wider academic network in GP. I would hope I am not alone in wanting to write on international relations without necessarily being involved in it.
  795. [21:26] <+Neenee> And don't be afraid to make friends across the board. Don't just stick to defenders if you are a defender, or whatever.
  796. [21:27] <+Kuramia> And most people are nice and will be at least be polite to you. Cause they want to advance themselves as well.
  797. [21:27] <+Neenee> Make friends and contacts everywhere
  798. [21:27] <@Xoriet> Friends are the most important assets you can have in the game
  799. [21:27] <@Mousebumples> one of my favorite things to do is to get a "Why did you do XYZ? That was a terrible idea! *rant rave rant*" TG and respond with a polite, "I'm sorry that we disagree on this occasion, but hopefully we can work together in the future. Cheers, Mouse"
  800. [21:27] <+Darkesia> precisely
  801. [21:28] <@Mousebumples> sometimes it'll make people see that one-time opponents aren't necessarily always-enemies
  802. [21:28] <@Mousebumples> and if they respond back with expletives, i know not to waste my time with them in the future
  803. 03[21:28] * Sam111 (uid92533@2604:8300:100:200b:6667:2:1:6975) has joined #WomenNS
  804. [21:28] <@Ananke> When I started playing, a lot of the people I saw doing foreign affairs were guys with big egos and strong personalities, so for a long while I felt like I was doing FA wrong because I just couldn't be like them.
  805. [21:29] <@Mousebumples> oh, completely, ananke - i know that we had a few ... disagreements within the higher levels of FA when i was president because i wasn't handling things like they were used to
  806. [21:30] <@Brunhilde> Honestly, if I had started playing earlier when there were these massive organizations fighting over everything, most of them with male leaders, I don't know if I would have ever gotten into FA.
  807. [21:31] <@Ananke> The way I do foreign affairs have always been a bit haphazard. Most of the time I don't do it to accomplish particular goals. It's more like I'm friendly and like to get to know people, and then later I'll be able to use those contacts when needed.
  808. [21:31] <@Brunhilde> Especially if I had started and went to an Imperialist region where, looking back as an outsider, things seemed to be a Men's Club with a few notable exceptions.
  809. [21:31] <+Darkesia> Contemporary FA is very much tied to communications, eh. An FA minister who is skilled politically and well connected, will eventually fail if they don't have the all important "FA Update". If you can write as well as you do, you would make a wonderful FA minister or Communications minister
  810. [21:33] <+Darkesia> I don't know how much of the cloak and dagger stuff has survived in the game, but if you don't have a good handle on FA, you will fail at the "backroom dealings" part of feeder politics.
  811. [21:33] <@Ananke> I've always been very curious, so FA was a way for me to keep up with what was going on in gameplay circles, since intel work wasn't my thing. :P
  812. 03[21:33] * agy (agymnum@128.54.165.38) has joined #WomenNS
  813. [21:34] <+Neenee> Looking back, I don't think FA was the best fit for me, but it was what I needed at the time. The skills there are super vital.
  814. [21:34] <+Kuramia> Yes, it does satisfy that bit of a gossip I have
  815. [21:34] <@Xoriet> I was never really super FA oriented, but I got most of the FA experience from running a military. It's how I met delegates and other important connections in various regions.
  816. [21:35] <@Rach> the one thing I dislike about FA though is in the regions I've been, if you're MoFA you have the least amount of authority
  817. [21:35] <+Neenee> Is that generational, maybe?
  818. [21:35] <@Rach> compared to other ministries, since the head of executive likes to run FA themselves
  819. [21:35] <@Mousebumples> depends on the president/head of government that you're working with, in part, i think
  820. [21:35] <+Neenee> I don't remember that being true when I was more involved in TWP
  821. 02[21:35] * guy|phone (uid86033@2604:8300:100:200b:6667:3:1:5011) Quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
  822. [21:36] <@Mousebumples> i had a relatively novice (at the time) MoFA when i was president, but if he would come to me with a "i think we should do this" and i didn't see how it would tank our treaties or anything, i would usually give him the go-ahead
  823. [21:36] <+Darkesia> When Xoriet was running TEP's military, she was the only political contact I had in the region... so to me, she ran FA at the time
  824. [21:36] <@Xoriet> I had more influence abroad in EPSA than our MoFA did...which could be very awkward.
  825. [21:37] <@Rach> I had the same thing in Euro when I was GA, NES almost fired me for it :p
  826. [21:37] <@Ananke> A lot of the contacts I used for FA I got through my involvement in defending.
  827. [21:37] <@Xoriet> I think he didn't like the idea that I was the one who had the contacts and people came to me about treaties.
  828. [21:37] <@Mousebumples> a lot of my contacts in FA i got through campaigning for my WA resolutions
  829. [21:38] <+Kuramia> I don't find FA difficult, but I am a semi-manager at work...with mostly overseeing kids/teens :P
  830. [21:38] <@eh> There is a lot of positivism in NS IR, I have realized, wherein — and this is about three fifths speculation — UCRs often display neoliberal tendencies and GCRs neorealist ones.
  831. [21:39] <+Darkesia> Mousebumples carries the distinction of being the only player to send persuade me to vote on WA things thru telegrams.
  832. [21:39] <@eh> So in that sense I think where you start a foreign affairs career will influence how you approach it throughout that career.
  833. [21:40] <+Darkesia> On that note: Who can point to 1 or 2 players or events that shaped your whole play style?
  834. [21:40] <@Mousebumples> Darkesia - i try to personalize TGs when i can since spam-o-grams don't really persuade anyone
  835. [21:41] <@Rach> NES for sure would be there, after all, I've been NS married to him for over 4 years now. But we're really good friends and team mates.
  836. [21:41] <+Neenee> Darkesia, Lanier was a huge influence on me early on.
  837. [21:41] <@Xoriet> It helps to be on IRC. You meet a lot of people here.
  838. [21:41] <@Mousebumples> and ... hmm ... on the WA side of things, i like to point to Krioval (who i don't know if anyone here knows) as he was really instrumental in both helping me pass my 1 UN resolution and in encouraging me to resubmit that same proposal/text to the GA later.
  839. 02[21:41] * Vetelo (Mibbit@d75-155-72-51.abhsia.telus.net) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
  840. [21:41] <@Mousebumples> and, like i mentioned above, i blame/credit anumia with getting me going on the political path in europeia a little over 2 years ago
  841. [21:42] <@Rach> I would say Earth as well, as much as we were sometimes rivals, she pushed me to become a lot better
  842. [21:43] <@Brunhilde> I can, without a doubt, point towards Rach and NES as people that have had the most impact on me from a mentor standpoint.
  843. [21:43] <+Neenee> TAO was always pretty influential in my early NS time, too.
  844. [21:43] <@Ananke> The Twoslit Experiment is probably the player who shaped me the most. He took me under his wing when I was very new and kept pushing me to get more involved. His defender oriented view of Nationstates informed my own in the early days.
  845. [21:44] <@Rach> btw, a lot of my children became GCR delegates Brun... so.... no pressure....
  846. [21:44] <@Xoriet> I would point to Raven, Sev, Bach, Ramaeus, and Dali for me.
  847. [21:45] <+Darkesia> Getting booted from 10ki shaped my desire to learn the "unspoken rules" of the game. The Pixiedance affair chased me over to Thel and Lemuria and the influence of all those former TNP delegates shaped my view of FA
  848. [21:45] <@Brunhilde> Rach, I'll probably go on to be a disappointment then D:
  849. [21:45] <+Neenee> Lemuria is where I first remember you from.
  850. [21:45] <@Xoriet> Brun, you'll never be a disappointment
  851. [21:46] <@Mousebumples> question from BenevolentThomas: do any of you feel obligated to encourage other female players to strive for the same heights that you have reached?
  852. [21:47] <@Ananke> Oh, participating in a liberation attempt of the Pacific when I was a newbie who had no idea what she was doing is probably also what set me on the path towards defending.
  853. [21:48] <+Neenee> I do try to encourage other female players to do all the things they want. If that is doing one thing really, really well, or climbing higher and higher, that doesn't matter. Do what you want and rock it.
  854. [21:48] <+Darkesia> Hmmm... I feel obligated to encourage other players regardless of gender.
  855. [21:48] <@eh> Yes I do. The lack of women as role models I had on NS is not something I want to see perpetuate itself over and over for other new players.
  856. [21:48] <+Neenee> I don't feel obligated to do it, but I do encourage more girls than boys
  857. [21:48] <@Xoriet> I encourage female players to do what they can do as well as they can do it.
  858. [21:48] <+Neenee> I think the girls, especially younger ones, need it more than the younger guys.
  859. [21:49] <@Rach> I try to encourage it a bit, but I think it's more important not to feel the need to do so and be happy and not feel like one has to prove themselves
  860. [21:49] <+Kuramia> Well, I don't necessarily care about gender when I mentor or aid someone. I just encourage them to get as involved as they can. To talk, to discuss, to question, and I point out resources for them and where to go and who to talk to. I don't encourage women more than men. In fact, I usually don't assume gender or ask until they tell me. :P
  861. [21:49] <@Ananke> I mostly deal with really new players, so don't really know their gender in that case. But I definitely encourage players when I notice them in my sphere of the game.
  862. [21:49] <@Mousebumples> i encourage female players to find their own heights to strive for, as i understand that what interested me (and where my skill set is) may not match their own. but if they tell me they want to accomplish [x], i try to give them realistic expectations of how feasible that is and what they should do _first_ to prepare them for [x]
  863. [21:49] <+Darkesia> I don't know why, but I have never been directly approached by a female player for the purpose of mentoring. Male players, on the other hand, have often sent a TG asking advice
  864. [21:49] <@Mousebumples> and i'll agree that gender doesn't really matter - but that encouraging those in your community really does help with region building, overall
  865. [21:51] <+Swith> Mouse, yes and no. First, I don't feel I've reached any great height. :P But I encourage girls to strive on with diligence. Don't put put off by those who would say you can't do something because it's a "guy's game". Be it RP, RD, or debating in forums, we should pursue our passions.
  866. [21:51] <+Swith> *don't be put off
  867. [21:51] <@Rach> Yeah... I still want to accomplish more Swith :D
  868. [21:51] <@Rach> we should team up > : )
  869. [21:51] <+Swith> Indeed!
  870. [21:52] <@Brunhilde> I don't know if I feel obligated to motivate the newer females but I woulds almost definetly encourage them to apply themselves.. Though I might say the same about newer males as well. I think that I can relate better with other females, however, so it might be easier for me to encourage other women rather than men because I share that common ground.
  871. [21:53] <@Ananke> Do you think female players are less likely to reach out for advice and mentorship? Thinking about it, I probably wouldn't have felt comfortable TG'ing an older player out of the blue earlier in my NS career.
  872. [21:54] <@Xoriet> I probably wouldn't have felt comfortable TG'ing an older player out of the blue earlier in my NS career.<--- I had miniature heart attacks when I first did that. It took entire minutes to get me to look at replies.
  873. [21:54] <+Neenee> It's intimidating to ask for help. And tied in with that, it can be difficult to admit to needing help.
  874. [21:54] <@Rach> it really depends on the region and atmosphere and people
  875. [21:54] <+Swith> I think quite a few are. I've found that they reach out to me rather than my male counterparts, and often only after they've found out I'm female.
  876. [21:55] <@Xoriet> Like the time I asked Nevadar to help me write an essay by contributing her input. That was intimidating in my mind. =P
  877. [21:55] <@Mousebumples> is there something we can or should be doing as a community (or as a site) to encourage people to ask questions and ask for help?
  878. [21:55] <@Rach> some regions are a lot more open than others and community friendly
  879. [21:55] <+Swith> That's so true, Rach.
  880. [21:55] <@Brunhilde> I didn't talk to anyone when I first joined. I stuck to the small amount of people that I was introduced to when I started and didn't deviate from that until I was comfortable in NS.
  881. [21:56] <@Brunhilde> I participated in group chats on Skype and IRC but really I just didn't know what to say and didn't want to seem like an idiot jumping into a private message with people I didn't know.
  882. [21:56] <@Ananke> From my experience, I think it helps if regions make sure that some of their older players reach out to their new ones, when they join. That way they already know someone without having to take contact themselves.
  883. [21:57] <@Mousebumples> agreed, ananke
  884. [21:57] <@eh> Small regions have a much easier time with these things.
  885. [21:57] <@Rach> For sure, my first region was really good for that
  886. [21:57] <+Darkesia> Mentoring is so important in the game, but it works best the way Ananke stated; as an informal system of older players reaching out
  887. [21:57] <@eh> Players don't really even have to "reach out," in small regions. An active RMB with just a couple people encourages involvement.
  888. [21:57] <@Xoriet> Ananke is right on that mark. Older players helping newer players helps confidence immensely.
  889. [21:58] <@eh> So in larger regions, it's necessary to have strong initiatives to encourage new players and inactive players.
  890. [21:58] <@Rach> People also need to be welcoming, when I first joined Europeia people did not welcome other people in their threads
  891. [21:58] <@eh> I'm not positive much has been written on that, though.
  892. [21:58] <@Ananke> Or a couple of really dedicated players doing the job. :P
  893. [21:58] <@Rach> but it caught on after a while
  894. [21:59] <+Swith> Darkesia, exactly!
  895. [21:59] <+Kuramia> I've noticed our Skype chat has a lot of newer players getting comfortable talking to people.
  896. [21:59] <+Darkesia> Yes, eh. But I have seen many formal "mentoring programs" fail in large regions because the programs themselves become these huge intimidating machines
  897. [22:00] <@Ananke> As a new player I also think it's important to find something in the game you're good at or passionate about. That gives you a place to start, somewhere you're confident, from which you can then later expand your activities.
  898. [22:01] <@Ananke> Yeah, sometimes good mentoring is about luck, the right two players finding eachother at the right time.
  899. [22:01] <@Mousebumples> Do you have any advice, in particular, that you'd like to give to players (new or old, male or female) ?
  900. [22:02] <@Rach> Don't be scared to talk to people, always go outside of your comfort zone
  901. [22:02] <@Rach> don't assume everyone secretly hates you
  902. [22:03] <+Darkesia> Don't give up on your ideas. Do keep fighting and building consensus, even if you have to find a new home to be heard.
  903. [22:03] <@Ananke> Often if you're insecure about something it's in your head, and other people aren't even noticing all the small flaws you see yourself.
  904. [22:04] <@Brunhilde> I'd say read any piece of information you can find and inform yourself a little bit. After that, don't be afraid to be ambitious with your desires. So long as you communicate well and aren't a total shithead you should enjoy pursuing your goals.
  905. [22:04] <@Ananke> Try and telegram someone you're impressed by ingame. Most people are nice and what's the worst that can happen?
  906. [22:04] <@Mousebumples> Don't be afraid of goofing something up. View mistakes as learning opportunities rather than focusing on self-recrimination. No one is perfect. Least of all whomever is trying to make a BIG DEAL out of whatever you goofed on. Ask questions and do better next time.
  907. [22:05] <@Xoriet> Never take one person's interpretation of events or people as the Gospel truth. Perspective is important.
  908. [22:05] <@Xoriet> Always get as many sides of the story as you can and filter out the biases to reach the truth.
  909. [22:06] <+Neenee> Don't be afraid to question people. Just because someone has been around forever, doesn't mean that their way is the best way. It's just how they've done things forever.
  910. [22:06] <+Neenee> Make them have to actually explain why the things. Not just tell you to go along with it.
  911. [22:06] <@Mousebumples> and if you feel the need to discipline something, don't come at them with accusations. ask them for their side of the story - but don't be afraid to push/question what they're saying if it doesn't match up with what you know. conflict can be difficult, but it's even worse when you go in guns blazing and you only got one side of the story.
  912. [22:07] <@Mousebumples> *discipline someone
  913. [22:08] <@Ananke> Sometimes you'll get attacked due to political expediency. I might not have been your fault at all. You were just an easy target. Those kind of things happen and you shouldn't let it get you down.
  914. [22:09] <@Mousebumples> Make friends. Have fun. This is meant to be a game, after all.
  915. [22:09] <+Neenee> "This is meant to be a game, after all." That is so important, and so often forgotten >_>
  916. [22:09] <@Ananke> And take care of yourself. Sometimes the best way to do that is to walk away.
  917. [22:10] <@Xoriet> Ugh, this thing turns into so much more than a game to people. It takes all the fun away and makes it a nest of obligation and chores.
  918. [22:10] <+Darkesia> agreed
  919. [22:10] <@Xoriet> "This is a game" should be a mantra.
  920. [22:11] <@Mousebumples> And we've said this before in other panels - but you can always step back, take time off for yourself, and above all, don't be afraid to move regions if you're not finding what you're looking for. Don't feel guilty for taking care of yourself. You should be your first priority.
  921. [22:11] <@Xoriet> I regularly take time off. I learned in my first year that if you don't take care of yourself, you will crash and burn.
  922. [22:12] <@Xoriet> And then all of your hard work is put on hold because you don't have the energy to maintain it.
  923. [22:12] <@Mousebumples> And you can say no. If someone asks you to help with something, don't feel obligated to say yes. Know what you're capable of handling and stick to your guns.
  924. [22:13] <@Ananke> That's important to remember. I felt so guilty about TNP after Pixiedance took over. I felt like I should've done something to keep it from happening, which makes no sense, since there were so many more people than me involved in what happened back then, but it took me a long time to shake that sense of guilt and responsibility.
  925. [22:14] <@Xoriet> You are not responsible for everything that goes wrong. Not solely. A game is a contributive effort, with many people involved. It's never just your fault if something bad happens, so don't put all the blame on yourself.
  926. [22:17] <@Mousebumples> thanks to everyone for contributing to the panel tonight. i think we're going to wrap things up for the day, but hopefully we'll see you all back here tomorrow. the next panel is at 9pm BST/4pm EDT and is about NationStates v. other Games/Forums that are out there. hope to see you there!
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  942. Session Close: Fri Apr 08 00:00:01 2016
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