Diplomacy Logs

Souls added Davelands to the group.Today at 3:57 PM
Souls added Jakker to the group.Today at 3:57 PM
Souls added Jay to the group.Today at 3:57 PM
Souls added COE to the group.Today at 3:57 PM
Souls added Rai-Eclipse13 to the group.Today at 3:57 PM
Souls added Brisko to the group.Today at 3:57 PM
Souls - Today at 3:57 PM
Heyo
With all the politeness in the world
The fuck?
Brisko - Today at 3:58 PM
Souls can be the polite one, I'll be the asshole I suppose
I'm about to drive home though soooo
Yuno added Cain to the group.Today at 3:59 PM
Yuno - Today at 3:59 PM
I'm tired so Cain 100%
Souls - Today at 3:59 PM
Your name is on the document
Cain - Today at 3:59 PM
You can leave Yuno out of this Souls
Rai-Eclipse13 - Today at 3:59 PM
They're the ones who signed it
Cain - Today at 3:59 PM
Did you really expect us to sit back and let you fire warning shots at TEP?
Rai-Eclipse13 - Today at 4:00 PM
So, they are the ones who put themselves in it
Souls - Today at 4:00 PM
I’ll talk to whoever I’ve got to talk to
Cain - Today at 4:00 PM
Or, be a jackass to our members?
Brisko - Today at 4:00 PM
Excuse you
Souls - Today at 4:00 PM
Okay, so let’s start with
What are you claiming, exactly
In detail
Brisko - Today at 4:00 PM
Excruciating, preferably
Souls - Today at 4:00 PM
Becuase you know that’s normally something that comes up first in diplomacy
Yuno - Today at 4:01 PM
He's the secretary of state. I mean, I'll stand by my members. Just listen to their side.
Souls - Today at 4:01 PM
Followed by the specific sources, and how you read them(edited)
Cain - Today at 4:01 PM
Nope. We don't have to play your game.
Rai-Eclipse13 - Today at 4:01 PM
So, you blacklist us, without telling us what we actually did?
Souls - Today at 4:02 PM
I’m not sure what game you’re even talking about, man.
Can we start at square one here?
Like, whatever the beginning of this is, and work in detail from there?
Cain - Today at 4:03 PM
This has been a long time coming
You know exactly what you have done to the members of our community and what you have sent me in-game.
As well as at least one other Vizier
Souls - Today at 4:03 PM
Well than that's been a long time that you could have been approaching us diplomatically :stuck_out_tongue:
With any issues or concerns you've had.
Cain - Today at 4:04 PM
I must speak a different language than you my friend.
Rai-Eclipse13 - Today at 4:04 PM
You continue to say we did stuff, do you have screenshots? logs? literally anything at all?
Souls - Today at 4:04 PM
So again, can you start by listing out

-The claims you're making
-the sources
-your interpretation of the source leading to those claims
So we can be on the same page here
Brisko - Today at 4:04 PM
Are you going go tell us what the fuck you're talking about or are you just going ti keep being unfairly haughty
Rai-Eclipse13 - Today at 4:05 PM
We generally try to not be assholes to our allies, and when a member does so, we generally take action to stop it.
Right now though, you are the only one being difficult
Cain - Today at 4:05 PM
Alright. I will give you screenshots of two TGs sent to me by Souls.
Souls - Today at 4:05 PM
So there we have one point, and I know what this one is.
Cain - Today at 4:05 PM
Cool
Souls - Today at 4:05 PM
Council, y'all know about this one two, from a while back
Cain - Today at 4:05 PM
The action is not being reversed
If you all know about the TGs in question that means you all were implicit in allowing that
Souls - Today at 4:06 PM
Though at the time grey and I very specifically talked it out after it was escalated to her, and as far as we knew, there was no contention after that.
We took away some harsh notes to know our boundries, and AFAIK learned from that(edited)
Cain - Today at 4:07 PM
lol
Yuno - Today at 4:07 PM
I don't understand
Rai-Eclipse13 - Today at 4:07 PM
Is this actually something new happening? Or you rehashing stuff that was dealt with already?
Yuno - Today at 4:07 PM
Why you
Went to a gazillion people
When EPSA li be rated
A TBH raid
And quoted our laws back to us
And threatened a "nonthreat"
Souls - Today at 4:09 PM
we complained, through diplomatic channels, and I admittedly was an ass in doing so (was a bad week). It went up to grey. Grey and I talked it out. We both apologized at the end, and both said we could have handled things better. Never expected to see it again.
Yuno - Today at 4:09 PM
this wasn't my idea in the first place. We don't work with grey wardens but we won't work with 0 respect regions
Souls - Today at 4:09 PM
Maybe we can get grey in here?
I'd rather not add logs of that without her permission.
Yuno - Today at 4:10 PM
Eh. Resolve the TWP issues first.
My military has more moderates than raiders to be any useful to you. If anything is needed, talk to MoFA. I'm more of a domestic type.
Yuno left the group.Today at 4:10 PM
Souls - Today at 4:11 PM
To snippet, without grabbing the whole book -

Grey - 12/24/2017
That's why I'm being so harsh here. But I do admit this could've been handled better and that's why I understand your concerns to this matter. It will be taken into consideration as long as I'm breathing in TEP. But we won't be bullied, either.
That was the main note we ended on
we were satisfied, and we also took away to let it go a bit
Rai-Eclipse13 - Today at 4:11 PM
Haven't even heard a TWP issue, this has all been TEP
Souls - Today at 4:12 PM
and, if there has been an issue since, I'd really like to know, because personally I've assumed TEP is leaning increasing towards building up its own defender forces and we sure have not made any more formal complaints of any sort since that.
Davelands left the group.Today at 4:12 PM
Cain - Today at 4:12 PM
TEP is Independent.
Souls - Today at 4:12 PM
We got an apology for some thing, told to back off on others, accepted the former, and heeded the latter.
Rai-Eclipse13 - Today at 4:12 PM
oh, allright guess we can't work out TWP issues then
Cain - Today at 4:12 PM
We raid and defend.
Souls - Today at 4:13 PM
Not sure why it's apparently the crux of something 3 months later?
Like, walk me through this. Are you made about the initial protest again? Revising the way it was handled and closed three months ago?
Cain - Today at 4:14 PM
Because it has been a matter that has been on-going. We all know what has happened, since you seemingly share this kind of stuff with the council. That is fine though.
Rai-Eclipse13 - Today at 4:14 PM
We were under the impression that it had been handled, that stuff we did may have been wrong and to not do it again
Cain - Today at 4:14 PM
I will apologize for my demeanor coming in here, though.
Souls - Today at 4:15 PM
So, you're saying that when Grey said we were all good over it three months ago, that was not true, and you've instead sat on it for three months and are having a strong opinion about it now without speaking to us about it any further?
Because that's what I'm understanding, at the moment
Rai-Eclipse13 - Today at 4:15 PM
Also, if you are just gonna sit here and keep being high and mighty then this wont go anywhere. You say we're doing stuff wrong, we are actively trying to find out what specifically we might be doing to try and fix it, and you get all high and mighty
Souls - Today at 4:15 PM
He just apologized for that rai
cmon :stuck_out_tongue:
Rai-Eclipse13 - Today at 4:15 PM
oh, was typing
rip me
sorry
Souls - Today at 4:15 PM
(also, if dave isn;t going to talk, can we get someone else from TWp in here?"
Rai-Eclipse13 - Today at 4:17 PM
souls, can you get the RMB spammer? seems like you're only reading this chat atm
Cain - Today at 4:18 PM
Anyway guys
We have made our decision and we are going to stand by it
Souls - Today at 4:18 PM
Anyways, Cain, so this is why I want you to specifically lay out every specific claim, the base for it, and the reasoning.

Right now you've brought up a granted, somewhat heated diplomatic matter from three months ago. As far as we know, that matter was settled amicably after escalating from a low level FA person I TG'd because i wasn't sure who to contact, up to grey. In the end, our takeaway was both an apology for a few things, and a warning to know where the line is. We've, as we understand, respected that line entirely since then.

Do you have another take on that situation? Are there other issues at play here?
Cain - Today at 4:19 PM
I am sure that there will be attempts to turn those threads on GP into salt mines or tire fires but whatever.
Souls - Today at 4:19 PM
I'm trying hard to understand what's going on, because all you've done so far is blindside us, mention old and finished things, and say it's final.
Cain - Today at 4:20 PM
Also
You guys requested another TWP representative
Souls - Today at 4:20 PM
Yep
Cain added Badger to the group.Today at 4:20 PM
Souls - Today at 4:20 PM
I mean, preferably someone from TEP also actually responds :stuck_out_tongue:
but heyo badger
Badger - Today at 4:20 PM
Greetings
Souls - Today at 4:20 PM
can you see chat history or nah
Rai-Eclipse13 - Today at 4:20 PM
We wanted to talk to the people who actually signed the thing, but they left
Badger - Today at 4:20 PM
Yes.
Give me a minute to read up.
Cain - Today at 4:21 PM
I signed the thing, and I have responded
Souls - Today at 4:21 PM
cool, want to read up and shout when you're here?
Badger - Today at 4:21 PM
Then I will respond.
Souls - Today at 4:21 PM
Thanks.
Badger - Today at 4:21 PM
will do
Cain - Today at 4:21 PM
But we can all do the whole :stuck_out_tongue:  thing
Souls - Today at 4:21 PM
You've responded by citing one thing, not replying to our confusing about said thing, and then saying it's final
that's not really a fair response.
Rai-Eclipse13 - Today at 4:22 PM
Okay, well so far what we've gotten is:
From TEP: a 3 month old thing settled with Grey already
From TWP: ------
Souls - Today at 4:22 PM
That is what I just said with slightly more snark(edited)
yes
Rai-Eclipse13 - Today at 4:22 PM
Still not seeing what the serious issue that has lead to a dual blacklist
Cain - Today at 4:22 PM
Like I said, there is nothing compelling us to play this out how you want, and you continue to fail to realize that.
Souls - Today at 4:22 PM
I mean sure
Rai-Eclipse13 - Today at 4:22 PM
Again: when we piss off allies, we generally try to unpiss them off.
Souls - Today at 4:22 PM
but it's kinda like
common decency?
diplomacy?
to not blindside someone and then not even explain why
Rai-Eclipse13 - Today at 4:23 PM
Like, you don't lose anything, and we might actually get a chance to stop doing whatever it is you all find unbearable
So again, I don't see why you won't tell us what specifically we did
Cain - Today at 4:24 PM
If common decency were at play here, or diplomacy, none of what has happened would have happened, but /shrug.
Souls - Today at 4:24 PM
So explain that
because even if you're talking about the thing from three months ago, it clearly did go through diplomatic channels, escalated to a higher diplomat, was discussed, and as far as we knew was closed.
Cain - Today at 4:24 PM
You have already admitted to telling the council everything that has transpired, so there is no need. You told them what you have did, and they have agreed on it.
Rai-Eclipse13 - Today at 4:25 PM
Yea, and we settled the ONE SINGLE THING through diplomatic channels
you are going in circles here
Souls - Today at 4:25 PM
You keep saying this like we weren't told all was good and everyone was moving on
you've yet to explain why it was not good
Jay - Today at 4:25 PM
I don't even know what this one single thing is
Souls - Today at 4:25 PM
and you did not move on
Cain - Today at 4:25 PM
Right yeah, you settled something without ever speaking to Yuno or I about it.. the DELEGATE and the MOFA.
Souls - Today at 4:25 PM
Alright, there's a point to work from
Cain - Today at 4:26 PM
lol
Pathetic
Souls - Today at 4:26 PM
so, we messaged someone listed as a diplomat
that made it up to grey
who identified herself as
let me confirm
Cain - Today at 4:26 PM
Feign ignorance
Souls - Today at 4:26 PM
Grey - 12/24/2017
I'm deputy FA minister
Rai-Eclipse13 - Today at 4:26 PM
I like how you say we are the jackasses, while continuing to insult us and refusing to say anything other that vague bullshit
Souls - Today at 4:27 PM
So I assumed, when it was handled with her
that it was handled
are you saying that no, in fact, the matter was not closed, and you never bothered to inquire until now as to why it was not?(edited)
Rai-Eclipse13 - Today at 4:27 PM
Sorry we assumed your deputy would tell you they settled something with us, especially if you included them in an important foreign affairs discussion to blacklist us
Souls - Today at 4:27 PM
Rai, deep breath
more anger gets no one anywhere
Cain - Today at 4:28 PM
No it is perfectly fine
let it all out here
Say whatever you like
idc
Souls - Today at 4:29 PM
well, I'd like a reply to that last question
Badger - Today at 4:29 PM
Souls, the last time that you and I spoke about TWP-TBH military stuff was some time ago when i was Delegate.  I'm guessing 10ish months back.  Summary:  Souls-TWP isn't being very professional in this (we left an op early to conduct our own)
Me-You guys aren't really friendly to us poach our people, blame us whenever things go wrong, rarely assist in our ops.  Therefore, we don't need to work together anymore.  We don't need to burden you.

Then in the meantime, Altino agreed to work a few ops with y'all when we weren't busy.  But I was never excited about it.  So part of this is a continuation of our conversation from last spring.

The other part is the way you have treated our partners in TEP.

Honestly, I don't think any of this is that big of a deal.  We don't want to work with you anymore.  I haven't wanted to for sometime.  There are many groups we don't work with for a variety of reasons and now your group is added to our list.
Souls - Today at 4:29 PM
let me goo see what you're referring to
Badger - Today at 4:30 PM
I am going to drive home.  I'll answer any further questions in about 20 minutes.
Cain - Today at 4:30 PM
As for the deal with Grey
I find it ridiculous that anyone would consider something like that solved/resolved when you have not heard from anyone else in the region about it.
You just assumed
Rai-Eclipse13 - Today at 4:32 PM
we assumed that the deputy of foreign affairs could speak on the behalf of the region. the point of FA people is they ARE the ones you talk to without needing to go through a bunch of different people and red tape(edited)
Cain - Today at 4:33 PM
That would make sense if what had happened was something different. You do not just send TGs to a Guardian of a GCR when you are from a major military organization threatening the region over really anything.
You cannot sit there and tell me that it is a logical outcome to never hear back from Yuno on this.
You spoke to one individual
If you had ONLY spoken to Yuno
that would make more sense
Rai-Eclipse13 - Today at 4:34 PM
also, this chat: we tried to bring in multiple people (including yuno, what do you know), they added you and then all left
so by that logic, this chat is pointless because only talking to you cannot settle anything
Cain - Today at 4:35 PM
Yuno is exhausted from the april fools joke stuff
I cannot speak for Dave
Souls - Today at 4:35 PM
So looks like I went to you because we'd had a few things happen, namely things like no one showing up to update, or leaving an active operation without any heads up. IIRC I went to Kawaii  with it first, he just pissed a hissy fit and walked out, so I went up the line to you. Looks fairly polite. "I'd be happy to mask you as org leader in our raid server so you can read up and see what I posted, as well as the data behind who exactly left the region (which I collected after grey requested it)" Offered to let you come in and look for yourself, yada yada.

You then said

"I would like for you and I to have an amiable relationship. So therefore I will say that since we are disappointing y'all in our planning, practices and availability; perhaps it would be best to not include us in your ops."

Eventually, you raised concerns that you helped us more than we helped you, and that some cross-members were choosing us over you for certain ops. I replied that we'd not been asked to help you much recently, and said feel free to ask more often. You apologized that some stuff got lost during a change of leadership, You ended on:

"We are going to operate our way. If it is not what you are looking for, don't invite us"

After which, we continued to invite you, and were more than satisfied with the work Altino was doing.
Cain - Today at 4:35 PM
I am sure Badger will give reasoning when he is able, if he wants to.
Souls - Today at 4:36 PM
Is any of that flamingly incorrect to you?
Rai-Eclipse13 - Today at 4:36 PM
anyway, I've got a meeting in an hour and need dinner, bye
Cain - Today at 4:36 PM
Cya
Souls - Today at 4:36 PM
Then the rest of your reasoning is "TEP" which we're talking to Cain about.
Cain - Today at 4:44 PM
Jeez, that must be quite the novella.
Souls - Today at 4:44 PM
Alright now back to you, Cain. Yes, we did in fact assume that the matter was closed, when the deputy FA minister said it was good. Is it normal practice to go on after that and poke other people in the administration to make sure the diplomat you worked with wasn't lying about it being closed? I'd think it's normal practice that, if the highest ranked person you talked to said it was good, it's good. Was it a guardian I telegrammed? I just hit someone with an FA title because I had no idea who was FA. When grey came to me with a reply to the telegram, I figured it worked as intended and we'd found the proper FA person to talk to. Personally, this sounds like a failure of your office more than anything on our end. To repeat, we contacted a low level FA person, got a direct reply from a deputy minister, conversed with said deputy minister, and closed the matter. Did your office fail to escalate it as high as it should have gone, or tell us we needed to talk to other people as well? Did you think we'd just stopped replying about the matter? Did you think you were just ignoring it? What did you expect us to do differently, there, and why was it not raised between then an now, short of cutting all ties?

Oh, and as was made very clear with grey, it was not a threat either. It was a warning of sorts, of our view on a few things that could lead to threats, but it certainly was not one. We got a few warnings that could lead to threats back from her, cooled our heels a bit, and again, considered the matter formally closed. Tense, but as far as we knew amicable ended with no sign otherwise in the three months since.

And rai does has a point. We're only talking to a minister now, not the delegate. If nothing is done unless we hear from the delegate, I'd like to get Yuno back in here.

Lastly, do you have any other concerns, or is it only this one thing?
Cain - Today at 4:46 PM
Do I have any other concerns?
Are you serious?
Souls - Today at 4:46 PM
Entirely.
Cain - Today at 4:46 PM
Wow.
Souls - Today at 4:46 PM
Dead serious.
please go into detail
Cain - Today at 4:52 PM
The East Pacific, the community that I represent, and the military arm of that community, The Eastern Pacific Sovereign Army, do not want to work with either you or your organization. What we are doing is well within our power and right. We decided to execute our ability to do this. This is an FA matter, and like both my Delegate and I have stated, if you wanna talk about this concerning TEP you go through me. I don't have to give you a blow-by-blow in-depth analysis if I don't want to, because I don't have to. You seem to think that this is owed to you and I HAVE to, or better yet that you can FORCE me to give you some elaborate reasoning.
Souls - Today at 4:55 PM
Well, we are indeed going through you at the moment.
And sure, you can indeed say "fuck off" without explaining, if you insist.
I don't think that's the best path for either of us, though(edited)
Brisko - Today at 4:59 PM
okay somewhat caught up with the exception of the latest walls
Badger - Today at 5:01 PM
What you have summarized concerning TWP is the pretty much the way I remember it. Going forward we're not going to work with TBH. No need to tell each other off or get into it any further. I will make a very brief explanation in the GP forum not going into much detail or throwing anyone under the bus.

From a TWP standpoint we could have either ghosted y'all or told you via libbing one of your holds. But we opted for a brief and concise statement of fact.
Souls - Today at 5:02 PM
I want to cover this again, just to be sure
You're cutting ties because of something that, again, was closed out a while back with "take it or leave it," and we took it happily, plus <Insert whatever TEP is actually claiming, because no one will tell us>?
And also
There's a pretty big difference between "we'll decline future cooperation" and the level of blacklisting present.
Can you explain that at all?
Badger - Today at 5:04 PM
For the record there are only two shared members that I can see. Derps and Vandy. Derps has opted out of TWPAF and we haven't heard back from Vandy. But OT has left DMs for both.
This is our typical response militarily when we have decided not to work with a group. We have the same policy with a few other groups. The difference being here that it was made public instead of just being internal policy.
Souls - Today at 5:10 PM
Okay, so I'm still very confused on why we're being treated like, I don't know, the pseudo-fascist predator rulebreakers in TI, or regular fascists, or organized sexual harassers. You're saying this is normal? And if it's normally internal, why is it public this time? Do you normally enact such decisions without any attempts to formally reconcile prior, or even just give notice?
And also, now that I think of it
"Exploiting the GCRs for gains and attempting to manipulate their regional communities to capitulate into demands for support while offering nothing of substance in return." This seems incongruent with the takeaways from the conversation we just discussed.(edited)
Not entirely foreign, it's certainly a somewhat similar topic on some notes, but there's a bit jump from "we do more ops with you than you do with us." "probably true, but you invite us less. Feel free to invite us more" to....that.
Could you explain that, as well?
Badger - Today at 5:18 PM
Actually I am moving on for the evening. Not everything requires debate. We have made our decision. Best of luck to you all going forward.
Souls - Today at 5:19 PM
Does "for the evening" mean you'll continue this another day, or is that your way of saying "this is over?"
Badger - Today at 5:20 PM
No need to continue the conversation.
Badger left the group.Today at 5:21 PM
Cain left the group.Today at 5:21 PM
Souls - Today at 5:25 PM
Well
that's a wrap I guess