KremlumSandus

CCPS Party Conference (Minutes)

Nov 9th, 2013
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  1. [11:33:10 AM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Welcome, members of international Leftist parties and organisations to this first CCPS Party Conference!
  2. Other attendees may join later as they so desire, yet I will now begin the introduction to the Conference so that we may begin on time. This introduction will be available on PasteBin after the start of the Conference, for the benefit of others.
  3. [11:33:20 AM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: As both S8gm8 and Acting-Secretary of the Citizens’ Communist Party of Sandus, I wish to congratulate all in attendance on the State holidays of the National Day of Socialism and the Day of the Ways and Means of Revolution! Happy 96th Anniversary of the Great Socialist October Revolution!
  4. [11:33:35 AM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: For the strictly unbiased arguments of others, members here today represent a diverse arena of Leftist political and economic thought – from Social Democracy, to Theodorism. We ask, so that this conference can be held in an objective and disciplined way, that individual attendees refrain from commenting on each other’s papers until after the CCPS Party Conference has concluded. You may speak to others throughout the Conference, however, so long as it is done in private communication.
  5. [11:34:02 AM | Edited 11:34:19 AM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Unlike previous CCPS Party Congresses where other individuals were strictly forbidden to publish deliberations, this Party Conference will be media-open. We not only allow attendees and presenters to take note of what others consider in their speeches, but we also encourage attendees to blog, use social media, and even publish articles in their national journals about what has been discussed here.
  6. [11:34:34 AM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Attendees should not ask questions of others during their speech: your point here is to have a colloquial (yet academic) monologue about your micronation’s political and economic system, to report on the successes of this system, and – essentially – to convince us of its viability and importance.
  7. [11:34:57 AM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Questions, comments, and all public discussion will be reserved for *after* the Conference is complete.
  8. [11:35:07 AM | Edited 11:35:14 AM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: A schedule of presenters has been published here: http://veritumsandus.wordpress.com/2013/10/30/preparing-for-october-the-plan-for-the-ccps-party-conference/
  9. However, we do not anticipate following this schedule completely. If a presenter is ready before another, that presenter can go first. The schedule is lax and fluid and an individual’s attendance can wax and wane if they need to leave.
  10. [11:35:44 AM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Concerning speeches, speeches should be posted as multiple messages, of one or a few sentences each message, so they can be easily followed and understood. This colloquial and dialogue-like form is for the audience’s benefit, as well as yours. Even if you have forgotten to write a speech or if you wish to speak after the scheduled presenters have finished, you may still present and write your speech ad hoc.
  11. [11:35:56 AM | Edited 11:36:04 AM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Finally, this is an academic conference. Though this conference may be colloquial, do not make it informal. As heads of government and/or state, statesmen, and micronationalists in general, we follow a pursuit of a general academic field where our knowledge in various disciplines can help us and our states. Therefore, it is in our best interests as attendees to make sure this room does not devolve into a farce. The logs of this conference will be posted to Veritum Sandus and Voice of Sandus, and other media sources if they so desire.
  12. [11:36:06 AM | Edited 11:36:13 AM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Thus concludes the rules.
  13. [11:36:42 AM | Edited 11:36:53 AM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: I wish to relay the important constitutional function this Conference that you all replace.
  14. [11:37:03 AM | Edited 11:37:34 AM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Prior to April 2013, the Citizens’ Communist Party of Sandus met biannually to consider the democratic wishes of the active Sandum citizenry. By democratic, I mean that all active citizens had a say and a voice to propose their own ideas and objectives (as was done at the last Party Congress before Thompson left and Volfa seceded). This Congress was noted as “the Party in Parliament” or "the Party as Parliament" because it advised the Government and the S8gm8 to follow the people’s wishes and advance their weal as the people saw fit. These Congresses and the leadership of the Party were key parts of the systematic check on the S8gm8 (as well as the election held each Winter Solstice), and it is from the Party and the Congresses that the Republican definition of the structure of the State of Sandus has grown. However, in early 2013, all other active Sandum citizens had either left or were in the process of leaving, thus returning Sandus to its pre-2011 population.
  15. [11:37:48 AM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: This Conference is the temporary successor of these Congresses. Though you the attendees may not be citizens and though there may be no votes or debates, you all are now playing an important role in the governing of Sandus. Though this Conference may not be a Congress which checks the powers of the S8gm8, you all are “checking” the Sandum system by academically providing alternatives. While our population is low (which we hope it will not be for long, considering the Second Philia Advance), we are still adamant in maintaining the current constitution of the State of Sandus as split between two definitions. And we still maintain hopes to further grow and have a larger population, we hope to eventually transform again our Republic in establishing a democratic Council and making the Party into a meritocratic, elite (if we are to consider ancient definitions, “oligarchical”) body. Nonetheless, you all are performing a very important and honourable function of the Sandum constitution with your speeches here today.
  16. [11:38:27 AM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Thus concludes my speech on the importance of this Conference.
  17. [11:38:48 AM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: I wish to report to the Citizens’ Communist Party and the attendees – foreign and Socilivo – on the advancements of Socialism in the past year, according to Party tradition.
  18. [11:39:03 AM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Pursuant to the Party’s decree of Proletarian Internationalism and reduction of Libera’s self defence in Sandum foreign policy, I seek to report to the Party that the State of Sandus has engaged in no meaningful or harsh self-defence engagements since Ianuario MMXII (January 2012), thus meaning that the reduction of Libera has been successful. Furthermore, I wish to note that the holding of this conference represents Sandus’s continued commitment to the Party’s policy of Proletarian Internationalism established by former Secretary Thompson.
  19. Pursuant to the Party’s declaration for the establishment of productive economic cooperatives for meeting the 2015 Economic Goal, I wish to report to the Party that the State of Sandus has met this goal in establishing the Tellus Agrarian Cooperative, and has therefore advanced Sandum Socialism. Pursuant to Sandus’s Socialist culture, I wish to also note that the Collegio Sacerdae has already established cultural precedents and traditions for celebrating holidays for the Tellus Agrarian Cooperative. I wish to submit to the Party that the Central People’s Government of Sandus shall continue to advance the Sandum agrarian and socialist attitude under the Tellus Agrarian Cooperative and shall use this conference to gauge where Sandus may continue in the following two years until we meet the 2015 Economic Goal.
  20. This concludes my report on the advances of Socialism in the State of Sandus.
  21. [11:39:26 AM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Thus, as according to tradition, I shall now present the music and lyrics for the Internationale and, by doing so, open this Conference.
  22. [11:39:40 AM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: You may find the music here: http://youtu.be/ko372vrAsfM
  23. [11:40:01 AM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Arise, all People from ye slumbers,
  24. [11:40:07 AM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Arise, Oppressèd of the World.
  25. [11:40:12 AM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: The Revolution comes like thunder
  26. [11:40:19 AM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: And the age of suffering is done.
  27. [11:40:25 AM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Away with all ye desires,
  28. [11:40:30 AM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: They'll only break us!
  29. [11:40:38 AM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Each must do their duty,
  30. [11:40:44 AM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: The time to revolt is now!
  31. [11:40:50 AM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: So, Comrades come rally,
  32. [11:40:56 AM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: For the struggle carries on.
  33. [11:41:01 AM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: The Internationale,
  34. [11:41:07 AM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Unites the People's State!
  35. [11:41:35 AM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: So, Comrades come rally,
  36. [11:41:43 AM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: For the struggle carries on.
  37. [11:41:48 AM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: The Internationale,
  38. [11:41:55 AM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Unites the People's State!
  39. [11:42:15 AM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: The Conference is now open.
  40. [11:42:22 AM] *** Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola added (-.-)~Bubbl1n3~(._.) ***
  41. [11:43:04 AM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Seeing as the first and second speakers are not her, M. Cunningham, please let me know when you are ready to present.
  42. [11:44:13 AM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: I am ready to present. Would you rather that I provide a link to what I have written, or would you rather that I present it here, paragraph by paragraph?
  43. [11:44:50 AM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Please present it here, and then provide us the link.
  44. [11:47:24 AM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: Okay then
  45. [11:47:47 AM] *** Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola has changed the conversation topic to "CCPS Party Conference - Introduction (http://pastebin.com/ZPXaLJGL)" ***
  46. [11:48:33 AM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: It is entitled "The Current State of Modern Theodorism in the Micronational Community and Burnham", and it is relevant only if you read with the knowledge that it includes only the information I am aware of.
  47. [11:48:43 AM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: Theodorism in the Micronational Community today is regarded with scepticism by a majority in the community, on both the left and the right of the political spectrum. Those who are not sufficiently educated about the ideology state that you cannot simply combine a monarchy (be it hereditary or elective) with Communism or Socialism. Those who are educated and refuse the ideology will claim that it lacks stability or the initial grounding of the Proletarians who rose in revolution for the good of the people.
  48.  
  49. In some ways, both points of view are right.
  50. [11:48:56 AM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: To the uneducated, I will agree that Monarchy and Communism or Socialism do not mix. They are the chalk and cheese of political ideologies; the notional or absolute rule of one over the rule of all. It must be said then, that Theodorism is not such a hybrid. The idea of a ‘monarch’ within Theodorism is to have one individual with reserve powers to protect the Theodorist transitions from internal and external threats. These monarchs may have emergency powers in the event of war or natural disaster, and they may too have minor privileges in the fields of culture and domestic politics. However, their rule is not absolute, and although it is not written down, it would be assumed that if a Monarch was to take power for him/her/zerself, it would be the duty of the Supreme Soviet, loyal members of the Vanguard Party, and the Proletariat itself to nip the nascent dictatorship in the bud, to protect the ideology and the people.
  51. [11:49:13 AM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: To the educated, it is again true that Theodorism (or any of its sub-ideologies) was not formed through hardship and conflict. No blood was spilt over the creation of the ideology, and I hope that blood will never be spilt over it in the future. However, to say that because of this non-violence, the ideology is not stable, is illogical, on the grounds that other ideologies have been formed without bloodshed, including left wing ideologies.
  52. [11:49:26 AM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: The nations that have taken Theodorism as their own ideology to my current knowledge are the following:
  53. The Grand Duchy of Prsänëa
  54. The Kingdom of Überstadt
  55. The Tsardom of Nolland
  56. The Theodorist Regional Dominion of Burnham and its Land
  57. [11:49:47 AM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: These nations have had their own reasons for turning to Theodorism, and each respect Emperor Jonathan I of Austenasia for his creation of the ideology during his time as Crown Prince. However, Überstadt and Burnham went further, creating the sub-ideologies of Democratic Theodorism and Justinian Theodorism respectively. After this, conventional Theodorism as propagated by Prsänëa and Nolland became known as Orthodox Theodorism.
  58. [11:50:18 AM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: However the issues with the Theodorist transitions in these nations are all revolving around the same three points:
  59. 1 - The nations suffer from bouts of inactivity stemming from a disinterested Proletariat.
  60. 2 - The Theodorist Monarchs have to often operate Government almost by themselves, rendering their Theodorist ideals practically obsolete.
  61. 3 - Some Theodorist monarchs have no intention of seeing their nation complete the 8-Stage Transition of Theodorism.
  62.  
  63. This is true in the Tsardom of Nolland, where the Tsar has to do much of the Governmental, Military and Legal work himself, and has really remained as much a Constitutional Monarch as before the Theodorist Revolution in Nolland.
  64. [11:50:29 AM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: In the Theodorist Regional Dominion of Burnham and its Land (TRDB&L), the issue is largely the inactivity of the Proletariat. Although I as Basileus of the Dominion promote democracy to it’s fullest extent (it was my dream to have a democratic country when I first became a Micronationalist with the St Peters Republic), the nation is formed largely of either disinterested territorial citizens, or citizens who also run or are part of other Micronations. As such, activity can hit particular lows quite regularly, which is not good for any nation, but particularly as the nation is formed around a cadre of Justinianites; political supporters of Justinian Theodorism.
  65. [11:50:40 AM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: Justinian Theodorism operates around the principle that once the 8 Stages of the Theodorist Political Transition is completed, the monarch will abdicate, and the Vanguard Party and Supreme Soviet will operate from that point on as conventional Socialists. While several crucial policies in the Government have been established, such as political parties, regional boundaries, and plans for cultural development, taxes and a roadway code, the inactivity of most Burnham citizens outside of the Supreme Soviet (now reduced to 3 people) has slowed progress to a crawl.
  66. [11:50:51 AM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: This is not to say that Theodorism has failed and that the ideology is in itself insecure and unstable. However, the ideology has recently been hit hard by the inactivity that comes with citizens with extensive, daily macronational education. When there are term holidays and so forth within these macronational systems of education, activity skyrockets, and incredible works of policy and culture are completed. This can be seen in Burnham’s history, as the May 31st Revolution that introduced Burnham to Theodorism occurred after the sitting period of the United Kingdom’s AS Level exams, and all major work of the Theodorist administration was done between May 31st and September 2nd, the UK’s annual summer holiday for schools.
  67. [11:51:02 AM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: While Theodorism (and arguable Micronationalism as a whole) has been hit hard by inactivity over the past months, many older Micronationalists (myself included) will be leaving conventional education (as some already have) to go to various Universities. This will give the combined benefits of a more open schedule within which to plan Micronational activities, and a large, new base from which to recruit active citizens. It could be said that the future of Theodorism will not be dictated by the actions of its politicians or opponents, but by the timing of holidays within the relevant educational institutes.
  68. [11:51:13 AM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: Link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/123Y8CDDhPVtcenPVS-K7Ng68xXH-l3zb0w77-7xDMMY/edit
  69. [11:52:47 AM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Thank you, M. Cunningham. I will ask that we wait for the next papers, just so that others can read you paper.
  70. [11:53:16 AM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: Read.
  71. [11:58:04 AM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Very well.
  72. [11:58:21 AM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: M. Linden, would you like to go?
  73. [11:58:47 AM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: Gladly.
  74. [12:01:43 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: Socialism within micronations frequently finds itself reflected within the culture and structure of that nation. The extent of this influence has diminished somewhat since 2009, but it is still frequently the case that socialist micronations will draw on symbolism and administrative concepts from the Soviet Union, Yugoslavia, China, Cuba, Venezuela, and other Cold War-era socialist states. This ranges from the explicit declaration of socialism as a national ideology within the constitution to less significant gestures like hammers and sickles on flags.
  75. [12:07:22 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: I would thus like to examine a counter-example, and I believe it will be fairly predictable which: The Federal Republic of Francisville. Article 78 of the Constitution, in reference to foreign policy, states that "Francisville is a neutral country." This applies however not only to international relations, but very much to intra-national politics as well: Theoretically, a neoliberal party would be treated no differently than an ecological, socialist or even fascist one. Despite the fact that most citizens are left-libertarians, the constitution does not posit progressive, socialist, or civil libertarian views as the fundamental morality of the nation; it does not afford those who support socialism any rights, status or support over those who support a free-market economy. Even in terms of the economy itself, the constitution does not prohibit enterprise nor assigns the means of production to the proletariat.
  76. [12:09:51 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: However, for one the constitution still enshrines rights typically afforded only by socialist nations as fundamental rights for all citizens. I shall list the most significant of these articles here for your convenience.
  77. [12:10:54 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: Article 54: Freedom to Work
  78. (I) Every person has the right and the responsibility to work and the freedom to choose their occupation.
  79. (II) The state aims to ensure the social protection of those who are not able to work and their dependents, be it due to disability or unavoidable personal responsibilities.
  80. [12:11:19 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: Article 55: Freedom to Unionise and Collective Bargaining
  81. (I) All employers and employees have the right to unionise and form associations for the protection of their interests under the principle of freedom of association.
  82. (II) No person may be discriminated against in the workplace for their membership in any such organisation nor forced to pay fees to a union of which they are not a member.
  83. (II) The state may aid collective bargaining within the scope of its powers.
  84. [12:12:04 PM | Edited 12:12:09 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: Article 56: Rights of Workers
  85. (I) All workers have the right to safe and healthy working conditions.
  86. (II) All workers are entitled to a limited working day and to reasonable working hours as set by law.
  87. (III) All workers are entitles to rest and leisure, and to minimum paid holidays as set by law.
  88. (IV) All workers have the right to adequate pay and to equal pay for equal work.
  89. (V ) The state aims to protect and aid workers in the workplace and during times of involuntary unemployment.
  90. [12:12:35 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: Article 58: Private Enterprise and Economic Freedom
  91. (I) Every person has the right to freely participate in private economic activity within the limits of the law.
  92. (II) The right to industrial self-management and collective ownership is guaranteed.
  93. (III) The law regulates private enterprise to prevent fraudulent activity and protect the interests of consumers.
  94. [12:12:54 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: Article 59: Limitations on Legal Personality
  95. (I) Legal personality may only be granted to profit making entities if they remain under direct public control or conform to the principle of mutuality.
  96. (II) The status of legal personality must not compromise or exceed the rights of natural persons.
  97. [12:13:21 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: Article 60: Right to Education
  98. (I) Every person has the right to adequate, free, basic education based on the principle of freedom of opportunity, and suited to their needs and capacities.
  99. (II) The state aims to provide equal access to education based on ability to all citizens throughout their lives.
  100. [12:13:42 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: Article 61: Right to Health
  101. (I) Every person has the right to adequate protection of their health regardless of their economic situation, and has the social duty to protect it.
  102. (II) Every person has the right to a safe and healthy working and living environment.
  103. (III) Every person has the right to assistance during emergency if they are not able to provide it.
  104. [12:14:03 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: Article 62: Right to Adequate Dwelling
  105. (I) Every person has the right to an adequately sized dwelling and the basic conveniences necessary to live a healthy and dignified life.
  106. (II) The state aims to protect people from homelessness, and to ensure that housing is of a decent standard.
  107. [12:14:20 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: Article 63: Children and Young People
  108. (I) Children and young people have the right to be protected from poverty and mistreatment.
  109. (II) The state aims to ensure that abandoned and orphaned children are suitably cared for.
  110. (III) The state aims to further the education and personal development of young people, and to encourage their involvement in society.
  111. [12:14:35 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: Article 64: Old Age
  112. (I) Old people have the right to adequate living conditions, and aid for their specialised needs.
  113. (II) The state aims to ensure economic security in old age, and to prevent the social marginalisation of the old.
  114. [12:14:50 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: Article 66: State and Social Responsibility
  115. (I) Economic rights and social aims do not eliminate individual social responsibility.
  116. (II) No direct claim to state subsidies may be derived from social aims.
  117. [12:17:29 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: Those of you familiar with the history of socialism within liberal democracy may notice that the rights thus guaranteed are similar to the rights proposed to be added to the United States Constitution by Franklin Delano Roosevelt, 32nd US President and the man who introduced social security to America.
  118. [12:22:48 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: The rights above in summation ensure not only that all businesses are controlled by their workers – workers' self management being one of the essential components of socialism – but also that all citizens are guaranteed a living. In other words - "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." The summary of a socialist economy. And yet, Francisville avoids making it the national ideology and remains, for all intents and purposes, a politically neutral and ideologically un-charged nation, with no socialist symbology included in its national image. All this goes towards the principle of Article 78 - neutrality. By refusing to outwardly promote any ideology, Francisville, much like Switzerland, ensures that it is regarded as a trustworthy and impartial partner by other nations, regardless of the beliefs of their governments.
  119. [12:22:56 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: Thank you.
  120. [12:23:35 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Thank you, M. Linden. I will allow a little time to pass before we go back to our first speaker.
  121. [12:28:00 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Very well. I believe enough time has passed. M. Jucaresti, when you are ready, you may begin.
  122. [12:28:39 PM] Ciprian Sorin: From the people and nation of Juclandia, greetings!
  123. [12:29:22 PM] Ciprian Sorin: I must start my speech with the mention that, as the human part of Juclandia has no political parties, as the system is based on a non-partisan direct democracy, and that me, as monarch, am barred from being politically involved, I am here in my capacity as representative of both the Juclandian Left (in regards to the human part) and of the Communist Party of Juclandia (in regards to the non-human part). I cannot, however, claim representation for the Socialist Christian-Democratic Party as well, as I could not be able to get an approval of such representation from the human citizen responsible with the party.
  124. [12:30:17 PM] Ciprian Sorin: On the 1st of January 2013, Juclandia has got her first Prime Minister coming from a Communist Party, after a coalition was successfully formed with the Socialists and the Liberals. Teddy Populescu, a young and promising politician, also serving as First Secretary of the Communist Party, has managed to form one of the most stable governments in Juclandia's post-republican history. With a political platform called 'the Juclandian Road to Socialism', the Coalition has started to reform the economic and political system of Juclandia step by step, from their very first day of becoming the country's government. Many reforms and improvements have taken place since then, but before I present them, let me swiftly present Juclandia's cultural background, and its influence on the economic, social and political systems.
  125. [12:32:32 PM] Ciprian Sorin: Culturally, the Juclandian people undoubtedly are tolerant, permissive and prone to co-operation and collectivism, while also being extremely religious. In Juclandia, religion plays a very important part, and the Juclandian Orthodox Church has great influence in the state's affairs. However, our view on Orthodoxy is different from that of the mainstream. Usually, people who claim to adhere to a religion do barely apply the religion's 'theoria' into 'praxis'. They stick to empirical points of view, and sometimes completely ignore the values which they claim to adhere to. This is not the case in Juclandia, however. Our religious values of humility, selflessness, mutual aid, hard work and unstopped progress form the 'theoria' that built our country in the past few years. From the point of view of Juclandian traditional moral values, we can say that we are extremely traditionalistic and we are fundamentally attached to the morality that our culture promotes. However, do not get a wrong image: our morality differs from what the 'mainstream' may consider moral. There are many things which are morally acceptable here, while in the world it's widely considered immoral. However, this applies the other way around as well: the Juclandian people (humans included, obviously) consider things such as greed and individualism absolutely immoral, and such things may be punished with social ostracism. And these things have direct influence on our politics and economy.
  126. [12:33:33 PM] Ciprian Sorin: This is why in Juclandia, from an economic aspect, all parties, even those that in Juclandia are considered to be on the right wing of the political spectrum, may be considered socialist in the 'mainstream' point of view. No party advocates here private individual ownership based on greed and the exploitation of others. Thanks to our selflessness and collectivist way of behaviour, people are prone to co-operation instead of competition. As such, Juclandia has never been 'capitalist' if one would consider the mainstream definition. However, our market has always been considered a market free from state interference, to a certain degree. And this is where the main clash stands: the role of the state in the economy, rather than capitalism vs. socialism. Such thing as the latter may not even be possible in Juclandia, as greed and individualism are considered immoral. One would wonder, then, why has the Coalition decided to name their platform 'the Juclandian Road to Socialism', if there already is socialism in Juclandia?
  127. [12:33:56 PM] Ciprian Sorin: The answer is simple: in Juclandia, the definition of socialism is different from the mainstream one. As I have mentioned before, the economic debate is focused on the role of the state in the economy. And in Juclandia, to achieve socialism means to diminish or eliminate the role of the state in the economy.
  128. [12:35:02 PM] Ciprian Sorin: As these aspects have been sorted out, let me get back to our government's achievments in regards to the advancement of the 'Juclandian Road to Socialism' platform. Right from January 2013, when the government was installed in office, Juclandia has seen a lot of reforms, ranging from social to political and economic. In the first months, the Constitution was ammended and new political powers were given to the Presidency and the Government, while a clear separation of duties has been made between the houses of the Great National Assembly, the Council of State and the Assembly of Deputies. The next two important reforms have been the adoption of a new Statute of the Juclandian Orthodox Church, which clarified the Church's role in Juclandian society, and the adoption of a Civil Union Act, which implemented some formal 'marriage' contracts between any two citizens. During the summer, the Great National Assembly adopted a new Law on Administrative Divisions, which gave more powers to the local governments, and for the first time since 2001, Juclandia also got a Law on National Decorations. As the autumn began, our government completely changed focus to economy, and since then we have been working on formalising the economy and getting all state companies on track. As the state sector currently comprises most of Juclandia's economic activity, the government of Teddy Populescu is planning to give most of those companies and to the workers' co-operatives by January 2014. In the human part of Juclandia, economy has also developed in the agriculture and services sectors. The Agricultural Co-operatives of Juclandia, located in Lenia and Grădinari, have been reformed and completely based on workers' democratic management, while the services sector is made of self-employed people.
  129. [12:36:03 PM] Ciprian Sorin: As these reforms are being made, Juclandia is turning, step by step, to a socialist country by the Juclandian cultural definition (in contrast to the mainstream different definitions). However, as clear impact on the Juclandian human part's non-partisan democracy can be seen in Juclandia's legislation: no mention of socialism (or any other ideology) is made in the Constitution, nor in any of the laws. All citizens are seen as equal, regardless of their attributes or world views and ideas. This is also a result of our cultural customs, which bases decision-making on consensus and the integration of all different groups of people, with different political, economic and social views, in constrast to the mainstream way of making decision by a majority vote, or even worse, decision making being based on a tiny group of people, usually referred to as 'the elite'.
  130. [12:37:28 PM] Ciprian Sorin: In the end, I may say that there is no doubt that Juclandia is a pragmatic, consensus-based nation. And while this means that politically, we cannot say that we are a socialist nation by mainstream definition, we surely are, culturally, a nation built upon values promoted in the mainstream as socialist ones.
  131.  
  132. Thank you.
  133. [12:38:51 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Thank you, M. Jucaresti. As before, we shall now pause for a few minutes.
  134. [12:44:46 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Alright. Our next speaker is M. Lindström of Zealandia. Whenever you are ready, please begin, Håkon.
  135. [12:44:57 PM] Haakon av Zeelandien: Tack
  136. [12:46:05 PM] Haakon av Zeelandien: Good morning, hur mår du?
  137. First of all I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the lands of which our nations are located and their elders past and present.
  138.  
  139. I would like to say on behalf of Zealandian Alternative, party of Labour and Independence, the ZApLI thank you for allowing me to speak on behalf of the ZApLI as its co chair and technical secretary.
  140.  
  141. Zealandia has had a long history with the progressive left starting with Prime Minister Kennedy and his Progressive party which is the ultimate forebarer of the modern ZApLI, we then had Dr Frederic Linden’s extremely progressive democratic socialist government, followed by openly communist Dr Joe papa puggy Puglisi and finally to the modern ZApLI.
  142.  
  143. Socialism has taken many forms in Zealandia, sometimes under the banner of social democracy, sometimes Markssenism or the Nordic Theodorism and finally under the ZApLI’s Jåfæðaärstefnå.
  144. [12:52:01 PM] Haakon av Zeelandien: The concept of Jåfæðaärstefnå, which is a Zealandian word for togetherness is apt as although Zealandia is not a theodorist state or communistic in the traditional sense we are still very much a democratic socialist country and have taken the nordic model and ramped it up for lack of a better term.
  145. The Zealandian Government and the ZApLI have long supported the Zeelandienskt Folkhemmet project which is our program to make sure no Zealandian gets left behind, and that Zealandia is the peoples' home, in this we have been supported by Unions Zealandia (ZLO) the peak body of trade unions in Zealandia.
  146. Although Socialism is not entrenched in the Zealandian constitution there are clauses that protect the right to unionise, the right to have work and the right to live with dignity.
  147. [12:54:50 PM] Haakon av Zeelandien: Socialism, means family of the community and family means nobody gets left behind, and in Zealandia we work towards that goal.
  148.  
  149. Marshal Josip Tito of Yugoslavia once said that each country will take its own path to socialism, Zealandia is taking a different track to the eventual goal, we may not fit the stereotypical socialist nation look, but we are democratic socialist.
  150.  
  151. Tack, Thank you.
  152. [12:55:32 PM] Ciprian Sorin: May I say something short?
  153. [12:56:25 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Thank you, M. Lindström.
  154. [12:56:43 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Yes, you may, M. Jucaresti.
  155. [12:57:18 PM] Ciprian Sorin: The quote of Marshal Tito is both very interesting and very true, and I'm very grateful to M. Lindstrom for mentioning it.
  156. [12:58:18 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Thank you both, indeed. We will now take the customary brief break, as we prepare for the next speaker.
  157. [1:02:23 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: I wish to apologise, it seems the next speaker I had arranged for was intending to merely attend and observe. I now declare that the Conference attend a recess until the next presenters may speak.
  158. [1:10:18 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: We shall reconvene here at 1:30 SLT if no other speaker comes forward to discuss Proletarian Internationalism in the community.
  159. [1:10:45 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Adam I of Uberstadt has told me he can present in two hours, at 3:00 SLT.
  160. [1:31:29 PM | Edited 1:32:04 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: The rules concerning discussion are lifted for this subject.
  161.  
  162. The 3 November 2012 CCPS Party Congress elected James Thompson as Secretary of the Party, under his objective to reduce Libera's self-defence requirements and increase the role of Proletarian Internationalism in Sandus. One year on, Sandus is holding its first major, international conference combining former enemies and close friends into discussing Leftist problems plaguing Sandus and the intermicronational Leftist community. I have considered these questions for you all, which would be instrumental for Sandus and the community to consider:
  163.  
  164. 1) How has Sandus done, as you believe, in accomplishing the platform of former Secretary Thompson? That is, how have we done in reducing Libera's self-defence requirement and introducing Proletarian Internationalism (while, at the same time, being isolationist)?
  165. 2) What can the Leftist Community do to improve the individual micronations which follow Socialist thought? Has this conference, up to now, been successful in bringing Leftist politicians together to consider issues which impact us individually and us as a community?
  166. 3) This is a big one in Sandus: What are the sort of economic issues which plague Leftist micronational states?
  167. [1:34:25 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: I shan't profess to be an expert on Sandum policies, so I shall not answer Question 1.
  168. However, Question 2 will be something that needs further discussion. While we have all presented speeches and how leftism operates within our nations, we have not yet confronted the serious issues that affect the Left community.
  169. Question 3 can, for many, be boiled down to the simple fact that production to maintain an economy is simply untenable in the environment given.
  170. [1:35:38 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: What serious issues confront the Left community in micronationalism?
  171.  
  172. And, can micronations still work for economic progress? And what would economic progress do for us?
  173. [1:35:50 PM] Ciprian Sorin: [1:31 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola:
  174.  
  175. <<< What are the sort of economic issues which plague Leftist micronational states?Simply because of Juclandia's system, our economy works without any trouble. However, I do reckon that most micronations experience problems with the economic sector due to their limited economic and political power, as well as extremely small size.
  176. [1:36:28 PM | Edited 1:36:47 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: You described Juclandian economy as being worker-led, worker-owned, worker operated. What does the Juclandian economy produce? And what does the economy do for the micronation?
  177. [1:38:38 PM] Ciprian Sorin: [1:36 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola:
  178.  
  179. <<< What does the Juclandian economy produce? And what does the economy do for the micronation?The Juclandian economy, produces, of course, what can actually be produced by a very small nation: agricultural products, food industry, traditional medicine, some limited technology. We are mostly based on the services sector. And the economy, while not very important in the plush-sector, plays a very important role in the human-sector, as its the main thing that keeps the country active.
  180. [1:39:02 PM | Edited 1:40:40 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: [1:31 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola:
  181.  
  182. <<< How has Sandus done, as you believe, in accomplishing the platform of former Secretary Thompson? That is, how have we done in reducing Libera's self-defence requirement and introducing Proletarian Internationalism (while, at the same time, being isolationist)?Much like Richard Cunningham I am not an expert on Sandum policy, but I think the publicity of Veritum Sandus goes a long way to promoting the idea of running a leftist micronational economy within the micronational community, and thus furthers proletarian internationalism within micronationalism. The isolationism is not really damaging to this cause, as diplomatic measures tend to do very little to affect micronational affairs anyhow.
  183. [1:39:25 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: What exact products are produced by Juclandia, though? I am intrigued, as I would like to discover what potential products can be made and sold in Burnham.
  184. [1:40:22 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: [1:39 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем:
  185.  
  186. <<< I would like to discover what potential products can be made and sold in Burnham.Francillians have been toying with the idea of making some kind of liqueur.
  187. [1:40:23 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: I hadn't considered the role of Veritum Sandus, M. Linden. Thank you for that.
  188. [1:40:53 PM] Haakon av Zeelandien: It is the initial economic outlay that Zealandia struggles with, but we have had a terrible time with record temperatures and the fall of Stepenavik
  189. I will not answer questions on Sandus as that is for the Sandum people not the Zealandian people.
  190. I think that initial hurdle is the handbrake on the whole shebang
  191. [1:41:22 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Considering products, as Tellus no longer has the means to grow things, we have been considering small scale crafts, such as small baskets. We are currently looking for land to grow things and possible experts to guide us.
  192. [1:42:07 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: [1:35 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola:
  193.  
  194. <<< And, can micronations still work for economic progress? And what would economic progress do for us?Economic progress aids a more sustainable method of finance for the nation. Rudno's finances used to come entirely from smoking fines, as one of our citizens was a heavy smoker. She has since quit, which of course technically was the point behind the smoking fines in the first place, but this has led to Rudno having lost all of its income.
  195. [1:42:36 PM] King Adam: [1:38 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer:
  196.  
  197. <<< The isolationism is not really damaging to this cause, as diplomatic measures tend to do very little to affect micronational affairs anyhow.I would contest that Veritum Sandus is diplomacy in itself. Diplomatic dialogue is not all treaties and special Skype rooms, but indeed merely discourse between states. As I have argued before, our diplomacy (in the form of meaningful dialogue as in Veritum Sandus) does indeed influence development by spreading ideas.
  198. [1:43:12 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: So, through exports of state-produced goods, the state can finance further initiatives and eventually create even social security.
  199. [1:43:55 PM] Ciprian Sorin: [1:39 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем:
  200.  
  201. <<< What exact products are produced by Juclandia, though? Vegetables, cereals, fruits, eggs, chicken meat, foodstuff (sandwiches, dishes, cakes, etc.), water, electricity (yes, we actually produce those two things: we have a water pump and a solar panel), crafts and similar manufactured products, clothing, printing industry, and we have also assembled some technology from imported used parts.
  202. [1:44:13 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: [1:42 PM] King Adam:
  203.  
  204. <<< I would contest that Veritum Sandus is diplomacy in itself. Diplomatic dialogue is not all treaties and special Skype rooms, but indeed merely discourse between states. As I have argued before, our diplomacy (in the form of meaningful dialogue as in Veritum Sandus) does indeed influence development by spreading ideas.However, Veritum Sandus is more of a monologue than a dialogue. Of course, reactive news postings could be considered a form of dialogue, but I find that a bit contrived, much as terming the history of literature a "great conversation".
  205. [1:44:15 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: M. Bayer, can citizens of a micronation donate money through "taxes" to support the running of micronations? And, if so, what sort of expenses should micronations have? Sandus has considered medicines, gas money, and other daily needs, but what of projects?
  206. [1:44:52 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: [1:43 PM] Ciprian Sorin:
  207.  
  208. <<< Vegetables, cereals, fruits, eggs, chicken meat, foodstuff (sandwiches, dishes, cakes, etc.), water, electricity (yes, we actually produce those two things: we have a water pump and a solar panel), crafts and similar manufactured products, clothing, printing industry, and we have also assembled some technology from imported used parts.How many of these are proper Juclandian products, and not by-products of Romanian energy, water and food production?
  209. [1:45:17 PM] Ciprian Sorin: [1:42 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer:
  210.  
  211. <<< Rudno's finances used to come entirely from smoking finesJuclandia abandoned smoking fines after Lenia (back-then called Cipimania) threatened to secede and most human citizens threatened to leave.
  212. [1:45:26 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Also, the All-Citizens United plan has considered using citizens' contributions through donation taxes to fund a recurring system and for producing an economy.
  213. [1:46:22 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Though, first, we would need a citizens to donate...
  214. [1:46:22 PM] Ciprian Sorin: [1:44 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем:
  215.  
  216. <<< How many of these are proper Juclandian products, and not by-products of Romanian energy, water and food production?Apart from some foodstuff that needs things that cannot be produced in Juclandia, such as sugar or tropical fruits, most of them are proper Juclandian products
  217. [1:46:56 PM] King Adam: In any case, imported components do not make a product non-properly domestic.
  218. [1:47:09 PM] Ciprian Sorin: Including energy and water - as I've told you, we produce them on Juclandian territory.
  219. [1:47:28 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: Including the solar panel and water pump? By Romanian, bear in mind that I too define that as products which go some way to contributing to Romanian taxes, or come from Romanian waterways.
  220. [1:47:52 PM] Ciprian Sorin: The solar panel and the pump are obviously imported.
  221. [1:48:06 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: [1:44 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola:
  222.  
  223. <<< M. Bayer, can citizens of a micronation donate money through "taxes" to support the running of micronations? And, if so, what sort of expenses should micronations have? Sandus has considered medicines, gas money, and other daily needs, but what of projects?They can, yes, and Francisville makes provision for that. However, due to the inactivity of certain citizens, we have been unable to set up a joint bank account into which donations could be made. Expenses to be considered are travel cost for intermicronational meetings (such as PoliNation and bilateral meetings), as well as web hosting (not only for publicity but, for example, the University of Francisville which requires facilities like Moodle), production initiative subsidies, initial investment into infrastructure like the Post, and where applicable in later stages, advertising.
  224. [1:48:15 PM] Ciprian Sorin: But macronations also import technologies such as hydrowater plants or other types of plants, so it doesn't really matter.
  225. [1:48:33 PM] Ciprian Sorin: [1:47 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем:
  226.  
  227. <<< or come from Romanian waterways.The water source is located under Juclandian territory.
  228. [1:48:54 PM] Ciprian Sorin: There is an undeground lake some 100 meters below us.
  229. [1:49:09 PM] *** Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer sent Budgetfrv.pdf ***
  230. [1:49:12 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: Hmmm, interesting.
  231. [1:49:22 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: This is a rough draft projected monthly budget for Francisville I drew up last year.
  232. [1:49:34 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: What sort of production investment subsidies can micronations have?
  233. [1:50:06 PM] Ciprian Sorin: [1:49 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем:
  234.  
  235. <<< Hmmm, interesting.I'll take pictures tomorrow so you can have a better idea of what I'm talking about
  236. [1:50:12 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Also, what sort of issues plague the Leftist Community?
  237. [1:51:17 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: You see, my concerns is that Micronations of the community, and not just of the left, have the tendency to just claim a by product of macronational business and claim it to be their own industry, or agriculture.
  238. In my opinion, this still leaves the Left in the situation where the economic principles behind the ideologies are being left ignored. I would argue that initially, only agriculture and heavy industry would be viable Micronational Left industries.
  239. [1:51:46 PM] King Adam: It is difficult to be an insular leftist enclaved by a capitalist haven.
  240. [1:52:37 PM] Ciprian Sorin: [1:51 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем:
  241.  
  242. <<< I would argue that initially, only agriculture and heavy industry would be viable Micronational Left industries.Heavy industry? How could we afford that?
  243. [1:52:40 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: While I don't advocate anyone to turn their garden into a wheat field, or worse, a mine, I still also don't advocate claiming that say the purchase of macronational goods from a supermarket and selling them on counts as a dedicated leftist industry.
  244. [1:52:47 PM] Ciprian Sorin: Light industry - fine. But heavy industry?
  245. [1:52:49 PM] King Adam: The Micronational Left could also follow the example of the traditional micronational economy by selling stamps, flags, etc. abroad for profit as well as awareness of their projects.
  246. [1:53:17 PM] Ciprian Sorin: [1:52 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем:
  247.  
  248. <<< purchase of macronational goods from a supermarket and selling them on counts We don't do that though.
  249. [1:53:22 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: Apologies, I was getting dinner.
  250. [1:53:22 PM] King Adam: [1:52 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем:
  251.  
  252. <<< I still also don't advocate claiming that say the purchase of macronational goods from a supermarket and selling them on counts as a dedicated leftist industry.Who actually does this, though?
  253. [1:53:24 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: That's a question - are notaphilic economies truly economies?
  254. [1:53:52 PM] Ciprian Sorin: Any products we import we first process - and we never claim that imported things are made by us.
  255. [1:53:56 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: [1:52 PM] Ciprian Sorin:
  256.  
  257. <<< Heavy industry? How could we afford that?Precisely. The issues surrounding the Left is that our budgets often will not stretch beyond agrarian economies, and therefore the heavy industry expected of the macronational left cannot be attained.
  258. [1:54:11 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: [1:49 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola:
  259.  
  260. <<< What sort of production investment subsidies can micronations have?One example would be if your citizens wish to grow crops, you can provide them with the seeds. Through mandatory commerce taxation, the state's initial investment into such independent co-operatives is more than reimbursed.
  261. [1:54:13 PM] Ciprian Sorin: We import wood to make furniture. The wood is Romanian, the furniture is made in Juclandia, thus Juclandian.
  262. [1:54:15 PM] King Adam: Craftworks and other small industries are perfectly vialbe, I would think.
  263. [1:54:58 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Ah, I see.
  264. [1:55:46 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: One of the biggest issues plaguing Sandus is the inactivity of citizens and our low population. How do we begin to appeal to non-micronationalists around us? Do we call ourselves micronations to them?
  265. [1:55:57 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: [1:53 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola:
  266.  
  267. <<< That's a question - are notaphilic economies truly economies?Selling banknotes and medals usually requires them to be made by a macronational third party, so I'd say that while they are economies, they are not leftist economies, as they are purchased from Capitalist nations more often than not.
  268. [1:56:33 PM] Ciprian Sorin: http://microwiki.org.uk/index.php?title=Economy_of_Juclandia Here is some basic info about our economy.
  269. [1:57:16 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: [1:55 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola:
  270.  
  271. <<< One of the biggest issues plaguing Sandus is the inactivity of citizens and our low population. How do we begin to appeal to non-micronationalists around us? Do we call ourselves micronations to them?'Micronation' I have used interchangeably with 'political simulation', 'model Government' and other such terms when describing it. In fact, those two terms above are how I have described Micronationalism in my personal statement for when I go to University.
  272. [1:57:30 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: [1:56 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем:
  273.  
  274. <<< Selling banknotes and medals usually requires them to be made by a macronational third partyMedals yes, banknotes no. Investing in a good colour printer and good paper isn't too expensive.
  275. [1:57:52 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: [1:57 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем:
  276.  
  277. <<< 'Micronation' I have used interchangeably with 'political simulation', 'model Government' and other such terms when describing it.Likewise.
  278. [1:58:03 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: [1:57 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer:
  279.  
  280. <<< Investing in a good colour printer and good paper isn't too expensive.Subjective on the expenses part, but otherwise agreed I suppose.
  281. [1:58:26 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: For a micronation like Sandus, believing in our Philosophy and our purpose of being are requirements for citizenship. How do we relate the philosophy to others? And do these sorts of requirements exist in your states?
  282. [1:58:31 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: I say 'subjective' because I currently don't have the money to buy a packet of crisps, let alone a printer.
  283. [1:58:33 PM] King Adam: I think it is worth noting that a truly leftist state should not prioritize profitability in its industry. Running an economy for the micronational left should be more about the development of cooperative projects to advance the nation, not necessarily to sell abroad for profit, for such is merely state capitalism. Granted, income is needed somehow, but that should not be the ultimate goal.
  284. [1:58:58 PM] Ciprian Sorin: This is what Juclandia does, Adam.
  285. [1:59:19 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: I agree, Adam. Though, I would also like to point out that we are supposed to have a speech on state capitalism later.
  286. [1:59:34 PM] Ciprian Sorin: Our exports in 2012 were extremely limited, and in reality, our economic projects costed us much more than it gained us.
  287. [1:59:53 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: [1:58 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola:
  288.  
  289. <<< And do these sorts of requirements exist in your states?No. Theoretically, 28 fascists could join Francisville and take it over through the democratic process. However, we don't much mind that since it is incredibly unlikely to happen.
  290. [2:00:30 PM] King Adam: [1:58 PM] Ciprian Sorin:
  291.  
  292. <<< This is what Juclandia does, Adam.I did not mean to suggest otherwise.
  293. [2:01:29 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: [1:58 PM] King Adam:
  294.  
  295. <<< I think it is worth noting that a truly leftist state should not prioritize profitability in its industry. Running an economy for the micronational left should be more about the development of cooperative projects to advance the nation, not necessarily to sell abroad for profit, for such is merely state capitalism. Granted, income is needed somehow, but that should not be the ultimate goal.I disagree. Since we exist within a capitalist framework, the extraction of profit from that framework in order to redistribute it to our people is the only worthwhile goal, as it is the only *way* to advance the nation.
  296. [2:01:31 PM] King Adam: We have no philosophical requirements de jure, but I would say de facto, as acts of naturalization are required.
  297. [2:01:33 PM] Ciprian Sorin: [1:58 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola:
  298.  
  299. <<< And do these sorts of requirements exist in your states?The only requirement to get Mainland Juclandian citizenship is to live in a range of 25 km from Jucărești. However, the approval or rejection of a citizenship request rests with the central government, and thus with my own discretion.
  300. [2:02:53 PM] King Adam: [2:01 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer:
  301.  
  302. <<< the extraction of profit from that framework in order to redistribute it to our people is the only worthwhile goal, as it is the only *way* to advance the nation.On the other hand, an industry that is not necessarily profitable advances the state because it leads to greater cooperation and cohesion, which is necessary in the more profitable areas of endeavor.
  303. [2:03:19 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: What sort of schemes can we do as micronations to increase the number of citizens? Is it acceptable that we fundraise for our states? And what sort of bank accounts are available for small organisations such as ours?
  304. [2:03:26 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: Burnham is without even a citizenship application. It is one of the things that seriously needs to be dealt with soon. However, the only necessary requirement would tend to be a tolerance for left wing ideologies (if not adherence).
  305. [2:04:37 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: [2:03 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola:
  306.  
  307. <<< What sort of schemes can we do as micronations to increase the number of citizens? Is it acceptable that we fundraise for our states? And what sort of bank accounts are available for small organisations such as ours?I agree with fundraising, although saying and doing are abnormally different things. I would only trust a Paypal account or the physical bank/treasury in the hands of the founder, leader or a trusted treasurer.
  308. [2:04:49 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Also, in the past, I have described Sandus a "Cooperativist" instead of "Socialist", so as to appeal to Americans who may think "Socialism" is too radical or extreme.
  309. [2:04:59 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: [2:02 PM] King Adam:
  310.  
  311. <<< On the other hand, an industry that is not necessarily profitable advances the state because it leads to greater cooperation and cohesionYes, but few people will be willing to work to no effective end. Running a postal service that results in no net profit is fairly unsatisfying, for instance. And the benefits in terms of co-operation gained are fairly minor, as they can easily be achieved by non-profit activities like journalism or the organisation of expositions and such.
  312. [2:05:14 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: How does one make a PayPal account for a micronation?
  313. [2:05:44 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: Register the micronation as a legal person.
  314. [2:06:12 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: So, a charity or non-profit, like the Wikimedia Foundation.
  315. [2:06:13 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: [2:04 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola:
  316.  
  317. <<< Also, in the past, I have described Sandus a "Cooperativist" instead of "Socialist", so as to appeal to Americans who may think "Socialism" is too radical or extreme.This is a good idea. Unfortunately, I soon may have to do something like this in the UK, as the Coalition Government is currently doing its best to make 'Socialist' a dirty word.
  318. [2:06:26 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: How does one do that, M. Linden?
  319. [2:07:10 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: Depends on the country, I'm unfamiliar with the process for the United States.
  320. [2:07:13 PM] Ciprian Sorin: [2:06 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем:
  321.  
  322. <<< I soon may have to do something like this in the UK, as the Coalition Government is currently doing its best to make 'Socialist' a dirty word.How?
  323. [2:07:25 PM] King Adam: The issue with that is the fact that most micronations lack citizens qualified to give legal advice to maintain the legality of such operations.
  324. [2:07:35 PM] Ciprian Sorin: [2:05 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer:
  325.  
  326. <<< Register the micronation as a legal person.
  327. So, a charity or non-profit, like the Wikimedia Foundation.It costs a fortune in Romania and the bureaucracy is huge.
  328. [2:08:29 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: Really?
  329. [2:08:30 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: [2:07 PM] Ciprian Sorin:
  330.  
  331. <<< How?tarring the Labour party, calling the recession a result of Socialism and Labour. Comparing Ed Miliband's late father, Ralph Miliband to Karl Marx, and referring to his work as being as dangerous as 'Das Kapital'.
  332. [2:08:34 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: Don't you have something similar to a Verein?
  333. [2:09:07 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eingetragener_Verein
  334. [2:09:55 PM] Ciprian Sorin: Yes, we do, it's called an "Association"
  335. [2:10:07 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: http://www.ehow.com/how_2050813_register-nonprofit-organization.html
  336. [2:10:34 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: I am unaware as to if Britain has a similar Association status.
  337. [2:11:32 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unincorporated_associations_in_English_law
  338. [2:12:10 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: Ah, thankyou
  339. [2:12:24 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: Also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-profit_organization#United_Kingdom
  340. [2:13:30 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Adam, this is useful for us: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/501(c)_organization
  341. [2:15:18 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: I suppose, gentlemen, that registering our associations is the next step for all of us as micronationalists, if we so choose.
  342. [2:16:07 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Not only will it provide us with better benefits by using major macronational systems, such as PayPal, it will also give us some credibility to outsiders.
  343. [2:16:28 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: What would this mean as a development of the Micronational Left? Would we now have bank accounts to accomodate the finances we have not accumulated?
  344. I believe that before we solve the question of money-holding, we must first solve the question of making the money to hold.
  345. [2:16:59 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: That is a good point, M. Cunningham.
  346. [2:17:04 PM] Ciprian Sorin: [2:15 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola:
  347.  
  348. <<< I suppose, gentlemen, that registering our associations is the next step for all of us as micronationalists, if we so chooseI don't believe in this, as we are, after all, claiming to be independent nations.
  349. [2:17:21 PM] Ciprian Sorin: Registering as associations under another state would just mean that we recognise we're actually vassals.
  350. [2:17:30 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Another good point.
  351. [2:18:06 PM | Edited 2:18:11 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Though, in Sandus's case, it would provide great benefit to be a registered 501[c].
  352. [2:18:30 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: We are running into a serious problem inherent of our mindsets, gentlemen. As the writer Ben Elton once wrote in a novel of his, the problem is that Socialists try to solve all of the world's problems at the same time.
  353. [2:18:58 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: I am of the belief that we are solving problems without solving the problems that create the problems we have solved.
  354. [2:19:13 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Then is there an alternative to registering our micronations?
  355. [2:19:46 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: M. Linden, you talked about Francisville trying to establish a bank for itself. How were you planning on doing that?
  356. [2:20:25 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: That is not my point. Registering the nations would be useful if the act of registering produced an income that could better the nation and help it provide for itself. Instead, all it does is register our nations to empty accounts.
  357. [2:20:57 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: [2:19 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola:
  358.  
  359. <<< M. Linden, you talked about Francisville trying to establish a bank for itself. How were you planning on doing that?No, you misunderstand, we were trying to register a bank account.
  360. [2:21:04 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Ah.
  361. [2:21:34 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: The Contemporary Marxist Party managed to open a bank account simply by handing the bank its constitution, we expect we would be able to do the same with Francisville, even if the bank would find our constitution a bit odd :D
  362. [2:21:50 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: M. Cunningham, then, couldn't registering bank accounts lead the way for producing an income, whether through state-run projects or through fundraising?
  363. [2:23:44 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: M. Jucaresti, then, how do you think micronations need to organise an account for their funds?
  364. [2:24:12 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: [2:21 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer:
  365.  
  366. <<< The Contemporary Marxist Party managed to open a bank account simply by handing the bank its constitution, we expect we would be able to do the same with Francisville, even if the bank would find our constitution a bit odd :DWhat bank was this?
  367. [2:25:32 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: No idea.
  368. [2:25:42 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: Probably something generic like Halifax.
  369. [2:25:43 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: [2:21 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola:
  370.  
  371. <<< M. Cunningham, then, couldn't registering bank accounts lead the way for producing an income, whether through state-run projects or through fundraising?It could, but as I am not opposed to the holding of Micronational income in a physical, Micronational safe or bank, the act of making the capital to spend on proletarian projects is more a goal for me than the maintaining of it, lest the money be held and never used.
  372. [2:26:18 PM] King Adam: We store our funds physically in Rosewood.
  373. [2:26:43 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Indeed, I was operating under the suggestion that Sandus would have an account for subsidising proletarian projects.
  374. [2:27:16 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: I think it may be prudent to make an ongoing conversation of this subject. I'll create a topic on the Micronation.org forums later.
  375. [2:27:40 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: Indeed.
  376. [2:27:47 PM] King Adam: Please do.
  377. [2:29:01 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: I also think that a generic, Intermicronational Leftist Association or Conference/Committee should be formed, not as competition to any standing Micronational organisation, but to organise the Micronational Left, which has clearly become disunified since the end of the Lethler era.
  378. [2:29:23 PM] King Adam: The Intermicronational Socialist Forum attempted that, but fell inactive.
  379. [2:29:26 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: That has been tried before.
  380. [2:29:39 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: Maybe if we make a subforum on mn.org?
  381. [2:29:44 PM] King Adam: Instead, I believe that conferences such as this are beneficial.
  382. [2:29:48 PM | Edited 2:29:57 PM] King Adam: Or a subforum.
  383. [2:29:49 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: It'll certainly be more frequented.
  384. [2:29:51 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: I suggest that various parties organise international conferences throughout the year.
  385. [2:29:52 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: I would argue that in this period of community reform and renaissance, a second attempt might be applicable.
  386. [2:30:09 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: [2:29 PM] King Adam:
  387.  
  388. <<< Or a thread.Subforums have the advantage of topical organisation as well as being able to restrict access.
  389. [2:30:15 PM] King Adam: I meant subforum.
  390. [2:30:25 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: Which is what I said :D
  391. [2:30:34 PM] King Adam: And yes, I was about to point out that we would have to keep the likes of the Duke of Dullahan from protesting every single post.
  392. [2:30:36 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: A subforum could work, though you all know how I feel about them.
  393. [2:30:45 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: Indeed, keep it open only to certain people, so that the right wing may not snoop, troll or criticise our procedure.
  394. [2:30:51 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: [2:30 PM] King Adam:
  395.  
  396. <<< And yes, I was about to point out that we would have to keep the likes of the Duke of Dullahan from protesting every single post.Two people, one thought :D
  397. [2:31:02 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: I could endure fora, however, if the conversation didn't turn humorous.
  398. [2:31:03 PM | Edited 2:31:07 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: In German we have the saying "two idiots, one thought .
  399. [2:31:33 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: [2:31 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola:
  400.  
  401. <<< I could endure fora, however, if the conversation didn't turn humorous.This sounds like the most Ebenezer Scrooge-esque statement ever, but I quite agree.
  402. [2:31:37 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: Well, I can moderate it.
  403. [2:31:49 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: Perhaps a stricter policy for the leftist subforum.
  404. [2:32:11 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: I would also say, for clarity, that the right wing should be given their own subforum, perhaps with Anderson as a moderator for it.
  405. [2:32:19 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: If they desire so.
  406. [2:32:24 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: Of course.
  407. [2:32:34 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: We now have a reason for having a subforum, given this vivacious conversation.
  408. [2:32:36 PM] Ciprian Sorin: [2:23 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola:
  409.  
  410. <<< M. Jucaresti, then, how do you think micronations need to organise an account for their funds?The Juclandian Treasury exists for a reason
  411. [2:32:41 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: The right? Not so much.
  412. [2:32:49 PM] Ciprian Sorin: I don't like macronational banks anyway, personally.
  413. [2:32:50 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: If they found an organisation they can request a subforum.
  414. [2:33:00 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: Should we call it the Intermicronational Left Alliance?
  415. [2:33:07 PM] Ciprian Sorin: No
  416. [2:33:13 PM] Ciprian Sorin: The Intermicronational Left Forum
  417. [2:33:17 PM] King Adam: Yes
  418. [2:33:22 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Yes, that would make sense.
  419. [2:33:25 PM] King Adam: As in, yes Forum not Alliance
  420. [2:33:29 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: [2:33 PM] Ciprian Sorin:
  421.  
  422. <<< The Intermicronational Left ForumThat already existed though.
  423. [2:33:30 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: 'Association' instead of 'Alliance'. 'Alliance' sounds too militaristic for my liking.
  424. [2:33:35 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: No organisation, not even nominally.
  425. [2:33:42 PM] Ciprian Sorin: [2:33 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer:
  426.  
  427. <<< That already existed though.It did?
  428. [2:33:43 PM] King Adam: It is for discussion, not organization.
  429. [2:33:51 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: Association makes it sound far more non-aggressive, which means they can underestimate us :D
  430. [2:34:04 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Regardless, gentlemen, we have an purpose for this, whereas predecessors didn't.
  431. [2:34:27 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: The purpose of this forum should be one for advancement of states if states want it, not as a means to argue theory or ideology.
  432. [2:34:30 PM] Ciprian Sorin: [2:33 PM] Ciprian Sorin:
  433.  
  434. <<< It did?The Intermicronational Socialist Forum existed, not the Left one.
  435. [2:34:35 PM] Ciprian Sorin: Your argument is invalid :D
  436. [2:34:43 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: Indeed. Also, the unity provided by the left now will hopefully provide a boost of activity to inactive nations, as we now strive towards a unified cause.
  437. [2:34:48 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: How about Leftist then?
  438. [2:34:51 PM] Ciprian Sorin: http://microwiki.org.uk/index.php?title=Intermicronational_Socialist_Forum
  439. [2:34:56 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: Left Forum sounds like a forum which has been left over :P
  440. [2:34:59 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Intermicronational Leftist Forum works.
  441. [2:35:07 PM] King Adam: I support that.
  442. [2:35:13 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: But, I recommend we discuss the semantics later.
  443. [2:35:25 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: For now, we have a presenter who wishes to present a speech.
  444. [2:35:41 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: I will publish the logs of this conversation to PasteBin.
  445. [2:36:00 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: Thank you M. Sörgel, for providing us this opportunity.
  446. [2:36:10 PM] Ciprian Sorin: Indeed.
  447. [2:36:24 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: It has, honestly, been my pleasure. This has been one of the most productive conversations in micronational history, I'd argue.
  448. [2:36:25 PM] King Adam: Yes, thank you.
  449. [2:36:59 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Now, Adam I, would you like to present your speech?
  450. [2:36:59 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: Probably.
  451. [2:37:07 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: Though I was regrettably preoccupied with dinner :D
  452. [2:37:19 PM] King Adam: Yes, I am prepared.
  453. [2:37:29 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Then normal rules are back on, comrades.
  454. [2:37:37 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: You may begin.
  455. [2:38:36 PM] King Adam: I thank the Honorable S8gm8 for organizing this conference and for giving me the opportunity to share with others the progress which Überstadt is undergoing. I thank all previous speakers for their thoughts as well.
  456. [2:41:03 PM] King Adam: Before I enter the bulk of my material, I wish to clarify that, despite proposing a Theodorist model and leading a Theodorist Party, I feel no need to describe myself or my state as Theodorist. We are a socialist monarchy, but we reject a global system of vanguard monarchs. Nevertheless, we separate Theodorist theory from Theodorist practice and use the basic ideas created by the Austenasian Emperor as one of many guides to our own progress.
  457. [2:41:42 PM] King Adam: Micronationalism in general has long relied upon revolutions of the nonviolent sort to further individual nation-projects. The secession of every new state classified as micronational relies on peaceful, although abrupt, changes to the set of law construed by the secessionists as governing a particular territory. The ratification of a constitution or the adoption of a declaration of independence typically produces such a change, which is often long in the making (surely the late Prince Roy of Sealand did not decide overnight to occupy Fort Roughs). Such was the case with the foundation of Überstadt, which had been planned for at least a year before the state’s formal establishment on 6 March 2010. Since then, all major changes in Überstadt have been the result of planned and controlled revolutionary change, with the most successful changes being those truly populist ones which involved the citizenry rather than isolating it. This manner of reform, based upon the key Überstadti values of pragmatism and the consent of the governed, is thus the most powerful force driving the arc of our history.
  458. [2:42:24 PM] King Adam: Überstadt possesses a heritage of democratic revolution. In the United States, anti-establishment action founded on democratic principles is glorified in its past occurrences, despite the efforts of today’s establishment to preserve itself at all costs. Change in the name of the people is a defining part of the American identity, as embodied by the deified heroes of democracy who adorn our halls of power, including such leaders as George Washington and Abraham Lincoln, who have both become symbols of the destruction of tyrannical forces. This idea, which American youth are brought up to believe through the public educational system, affects many aspects of political culture. Much as a traditional mistrust of authority contributes to the micronational movement in Australia, the legacy of populist revolution in the United States surely contributes to American micronationalism, if only subconsciously in some nation-projects. The foundation of Überstadt was, just like the foundation of most unrecognized polities, a democratic revolution in itself, but democratic revolution continued throughout its history. The most iconic is the November Revolution, which occurred from late October through early December 2011. The first revolutionary change in Überstadti history, and the only one to ever not involve the people, was the declaration of a dictatorship by the first Chief Judge in an attempt to forcibly bring about reactivation and citizen interest, occurring in August of the same year, and it had failed. The monarchist November Revolution produced the first instance of popularly driven change in Überstadt, bringing about the highest levels of activity and advancement seen since foundation. This change happened quickly, progressing in short succession from the intentionally flawed election of a second dictatorial Chief Judge (conveniently one who could not resist reform as he was unaware of his election) to the acclamation of the new king by the two men who volunteered to form the Royal Army to the adoption of the Constitution of the Kingdom of Überstadt, whose signers included several individuals who had already been citizens under the kritarchy. A parliamentary democracy then fell neatly into place, with the eager formation of political parties and a grand coalition between the monarchist conservatives and centrists, set against the anti-monarchist minority. This was the first democratic revolution in Überstadt, and it illustrates the practice of accelerated reform, which produces a smooth transition between social and political structures without undue delay.
  459. [2:44:04 PM] King Adam: All political changes in Überstadt reflect the state’s developmental needs, especially the times of accelerated reform. The dictatorship was introduced because it was naively believed at the time that bypassing the inactive populace (which had not even elected its Senate more than a full year after law demanded it) to force political change could renew interest in the project. It was learned very quickly that this accomplished nothing, for the people under an authoritarian government had lost their opportunities to participate in their country and as such did not gain renewed interest in doing so. The November Revolution solved this problem, and these two events together produced an effective response to the problem of activity and citizen interest. When it appeared beginning in late 2012 that Überstadt may not survive the diaspora of most of its citizens come their graduation from high school in June, the decision was made instead to preserve the state, but shift its focus away from the high school (the Barony of Terrace) and toward the Royal Residency (the Barony of Rosewood). Since a decrease in citizens would lead to a decrease in Members of Parliament, geography was not the only shift toward the Residency that was made; more political power was vested in the Monarch. This centralization of political power in Rosewood, accompanied by the resulting shift in cultural focus, helped consolidate the Kingdom and make it more effectively governed and increased the potential for further meaningful development. Today, with the need to firmly establish the state gone and the need to firmly establish the nation readily apparent, development must be addressed, and the corresponding revolutionary change to do so is socialism.
  460. [2:45:30 PM] King Adam: Socialism is a revolutionary, but pragmatic, change for Überstadt, being perfectly logical when the Kingdom’s unique conditions are considered. One of the most significant reasons for a new economic system is the fact that market capitalism does not function in Überstadt. The flow of money is inefficient due to the geographical separation of some citizens, the minimal amount of private property devoted to exclusively Überstadti purposes, and a lack of foreign trade. Additionally, in a capitalist system, there are many productive activities that are not incentivized, such as horticulture, raising children, and the sorts of tasks usually relegated to volunteer work. If these activities were incentivized by law, then working in the royal garden, to name one productive activity presently not rewarded economically because the garden’s present owners simply expect residents to tend it without compensation, would actually result in some material gain which would enable the purchase of more domestic goods. Interestingly, this fact actually makes a socialist system easier for the residents of Rosewood, because it is simple to share de jure the property which one already shares de facto. The problem of compensation would be solved by a system of labor vouchers, which would meet multiple needs: rewarding all productive activity without producing inflation, and creating a measure of demand that can be used in economic planning (akin to market capitalism’s dollar votes, but not swayed by existing ill-gotten wealth). These facts together also empower the few nonresident citizens to participate more. The sorts of activities these nonresidents are most useful for tend to involve information and the knowledge economy, which while undoubtedly productive in the sense that these sorts of contributions support cultural and political endeavors and are thus in demand, there is no financial demand from any private entity. Even if public compensation for these contributions was made with the über, such a practice would be unsustainable; inflation would result, and excessive taxation would have to be levied to procure sufficient chocolate to back the money supply in full, as is required by law. The labor vouchers are thus superior to this, for they guarantee that every person contributing to Überstadt receives just compensation without reaching into the public’s pockets for United States dollars, increasing economic autonomy by creating a more participatory system.
  461. [2:47:48 PM] King Adam: The decision that has been made by Überstadti leaders is to take a monarchist approach to the adoption of socialism, described by some as Theodorism. This decision also arises from practicality. In many micronations, there has been throughout their history an individual with more influence than any other, most likely intimately involved in the state’s foundation, without whom the project would collapse. This is not due to a lack of development or interest on the part of the other citizens, but due to the fact that this leader may be the only psychologically “true” micronationalist providing vision. The present King of Überstadt is such a developmental catalyst, there being only a month when he was not head of state (during the unwitting rule of the second Chief Judge in 2011). Monarchy is chosen as a system of governance for many nation-projects because of the integral role of a particular individual in the given nation (although in some cases, as in Florenia or Austenasia prior to the accession of Emperor Jonathan, this particular individual prefers to take the role of the head of government). Because Theodorism requires somewhat of an active, although highly restricted, monarch, it is logical for a state that is presently monarchical, and whose monarchy is supported unanimously by its citizens, but wishes to undergo socialist reform to adopt a philosophy that puts economic power in the hands of the workers while maintaining the cultural role, military command, and political involvement of the monarch. In Überstadt, this results in the simultaneous preservation of important structures and redistribution of power to the equal citizenry. Logical issues aside, Theodorism is, if not a wholly self-consistent ideology, a source of pragmatic ideas for some states, including that of the Überstadtis.
  462. [2:48:37 PM] King Adam: It is thus seen that Überstadti history is driven by changes based on pragmatic concerns, whether actual or perceived. The needs of the present Kingdom demand a way to empower ordinary citizens in a manner conducive to development, and socialism is the solution to this problem, while a monarchical socialist path provides a reasonable path by which to achieve this goal.
  463. [2:48:51 PM | Edited 2:49:19 PM] King Adam: As previously discussed, accelerated reform is the type of democratic revolution predominant in Überstadti political culture. This remains the case with the successful adoption of monarchist socialism. The time between the first legal step toward socialism and the ratification of the "Theodorist" constitution was fewer than six weeks, yet gradual enough to produce successful results.
  464. [2:49:34 PM] King Adam: Arrival at the decision to utilize Theodorist principles took months to accomplish. Übersadti leadership, despite consisting mostly of persons with political views ranging from center to left-wing, believed that capitalist practices were a superior way to bring about economic development along with the other types of development which were expected to logically follow. Owing to the issues with market capitalism earlier discussed, none of this in fact occurred. The re-adoption of the über as a domestic currency, part of the effort to develop a more independent economy, necessitated a means of distributing it to the public and accustoming the populace to its use. It was determined that the most productive way to initiate circulation was to institute a public works program. Activities which contributed to both environmental quality and economic potential were compensated for by the state, which paid one über ($.425) per hour worked. This proved successful in the short term, with extensive cleanup of the northeastern portion of Rosewood resulting in the circulation of several übers, which went on to be used for both consumer purchases from domestic companies as well as the acquisition of capital. The multiplier effect was illustrated in small-scale practice, but the completion of the first projects (which included such tasks as removing toxic waste and controlling the advance of invasive plants) was followed by an abrupt decrease in consumption and investment. While this early public works system demonstrated the potential effectiveness of such a mixed economy in producing a flow of cash, it also showed the limits of such a system when the work considered worthy of monetary compensation was finite. King Adam was the first to consider socialiism in Überstadt, having been influenced by the Theodorist literature that existed at the time. The sharing of these ideas with Prince Aaron, the Prime Minister, produced effective dialogue, with a decision eventually being made to found the Theodorist Party of Überstadt with the King at its head.
  465. [2:50:45 PM] King Adam: The next steps occurred in very quick succession. The Company and Colony Nationalization Act can be considered the first step in a chain of events that would lead to today’s Überstadt. All companies were nationalized and mandated to act not in the interest of profit, but of the welfare of the state. Furthermore, real property possessed by private individuals for business purposes was also acquired by the state (and in the case of Creekbed Colony, re-acquired). One of the newly-public businesses, the Bank of Rosewood, was to become more involved in domestic transactions, preparing citizens for the voucher system that would suspend with banknotes and coins. A second law amending the Nationalization Act directed the collectivization of property associated with the formerly-private businesses.
  466. [2:51:28 PM] King Adam: As all this occurred, the Third Constitution of the Kingdom of Überstadt was being drafted by party leaders. Any legislation that was required during this transitional period was produced by Parliament, royal decrees falling into intentional disuse to allow the people’s elected representative to make all new law in preparation for the new model of Parliament. The Third Constitution was completed, approved on 24 October by a vote of Parliament, and ratified unanimously by a referendum the next day. The labor voucher was adopted, direct democracy in the form of a “Parliament of All Citizens” became the legislative model, and the succession of the monarchy was put firmly in the hands of the people. The new law declared the means of production to be the property of all citizens.
  467. [2:52:09 PM] King Adam: A great deal of legislation to implement the principles of the new constitution is still required. The voucher system must be regulated, the limits of personal property must be defined, the military must be more strictly governed, and a comprehensive legal code must be penned. The Fifth Parliament, which will ideally last until Überstadt’s demise, will meet for the first time this month and begin smoothing out the new legal and political issues. More people are interested in becoming citizens of the Kingdom, and those who already are eagerly anticipate the new system that gives them a direct say in all aspects of the project, from culture to the environment.
  468. [2:54:50 PM] King Adam: As you can all now see, revolutionary but democratic movements are part of what defines Überstadt, but no decision for major reform is taken lightly. We prioritize the utility of such decisions, and have found that the best changes are those that empower the citizenry as a whole. I hope that you all have learned something from my thoughts, and hope to learn more from each of you as well. Thank you.
  469. [2:55:29 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Thank you, Adam.
  470. [2:55:38 PM] HRH Prince Harry: Very interesting, thank you indeed
  471. [2:55:42 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: Adam, that was a fantastic speech, bravo.
  472. [2:55:54 PM] King Adam: Thank you, comrades.
  473. [2:55:57 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: I must say that that was wonderful. It has given me an insight into a potential, new Realist treatise.
  474. [2:57:31 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: Yes, very enlightening.
  475. [2:57:57 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: I suppose light academic discussion may continue.
  476. [2:58:01 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: I think Überstadt may be the first micronation to fully transition from capitalism to socialism through instruments of law.
  477. [2:58:34 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: I would like to ask, though, how does Uberstadt use chocolate? Is chocolate the voucher for hard work? Or is it the basis for the über?
  478. [2:59:17 PM] King Adam: It was the backing of the über. One-half of a Hershey's Milk Chocolate Bar was what the über was pegged to.
  479. [2:59:25 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: I think that that is also an interesting perspective for us as micronationalists.
  480. [2:59:46 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Using non-monetary incentives for micronational advancement.
  481. [2:59:56 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: I would consider that, if Hershey's didn't taste so bland.
  482. [3:00:04 PM] HRH Prince Harry: Actually, that's a really good idea, I've been thinking a lot recently about the Monovish economy, and I must say that's a very unique idea
  483. [3:00:14 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: UK chocolate raises the bar, I'm afraid to say (pun intended).
  484. [3:00:24 PM] King Adam: [2:59 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем:
  485.  
  486. <<< I would consider that, if Hershey's didn't taste so bland.Why do you think we abolished the Chocolate Standard? :D
  487. [3:00:29 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Haha.
  488. [3:00:33 PM] Pet Fluffy: [3:00 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем:
  489.  
  490. <<< UK chocolate raises the bar, I'm afraid to say (pun intended).I don't get it
  491. [3:00:37 PM] Pet Fluffy: OH, "bar".
  492. [3:01:01 PM] King Adam: Historical note: the Chocolate Standard was created in our very first March 2010 constitution, with one bar being one über.
  493. [3:01:07 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Our next speech is from Kuri, though he hasn't been on all day.
  494. [3:01:19 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: Côte d'Or is my personal favourite as chocolate goes, but given it's only retailed in Benelux, it must be impossible to obtain in the US.
  495. [3:01:48 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: When the chocolate standard was abolished, did you eat the chocolate yourself? And if so, did it cause inflation?
  496. [3:02:11 PM] King Adam: We have yet to pass legislative instruments directing the disposition of the Royal Chocolate Reserve.
  497. [3:02:14 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Yes, though it may be something not so specific to chocolate. Consider, for example (since it is autumn), hot apple cider as an incentive.
  498. [3:02:49 PM] King Adam: Now, the real incentive to work is the right to goods and services others produce.
  499. [3:02:51 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Chocolate inflation -- I love it!
  500. [3:02:53 PM] King Adam: Due to the vouchers.
  501. [3:03:28 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: We used to drive over to Luxembourg and fill the trunk with Côte d'Or things, it was quite amusing. Had our currency been based on Côte d'Or chocolate bars, we would have had bouts of deflation every 9 months or so :D
  502. [3:03:29 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Perhaps, then, micronationalism can lead to a return of bargaining.
  503. [3:03:40 PM | Removed 3:04:16 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: This message has been removed.
  504. [3:04:00 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: Oh for heaven's sake, Richard, no.
  505. [3:04:06 PM] King Adam: Please no.
  506. [3:04:12 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: I apologise. I have a foul wit.
  507. [3:04:26 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: I'm personally amused, but let's keep the room still *some-what* professional.
  508. [3:04:53 PM] King Adam: If he is still present, I wish to thank HIM Jonathan for the influence his ideas have had on my state.
  509. [3:05:16 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: Indeed, I thank HIM Jonathan also. Burnham would have collapsed this year were it not for Theodorism.
  510. [3:06:21 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: I still contend Theodorism is philosophically nonsensical, but suum cuique :P
  511. [3:06:39 PM] Pet Fluffy: Oh, you're more than welcome. I never expected my ideas to be so well recieved. I'm also glad you've both made slight adaptions as necessary for your own micronations, as I think I'd actually dislike someone adopting Theodorism just because they "think it's cool" or something.
  512. [3:06:50 PM] King Adam: [3:06 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer:
  513.  
  514. <<< I still contend Theodorism is philosophically nonsensical, but suum cuique Which is why we use some of its ideas, not the ideology in general.
  515. [3:07:26 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Indeed. Gentlemen, this is the benefit of having these sorts of conversations in this way.
  516. [3:07:49 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: We're a bit closer to 'the book' in Burnham, but I can respect M. Bayer's point. Theodorism most certainly isn't for everybody, which I think is ironic, in a sense.
  517. [3:07:49 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: We ought not to get caught up on ideology but, rather, objectively seeing how other states run their systems.
  518. [3:08:00 PM] King Adam: Indeed.
  519. [3:08:21 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: The founding basis of these conversations ought to be the recognition of the importance of sovereignty and alterity between states.
  520. [3:08:32 PM] King Adam: As for future conferences, how often should they be held? Quarterly? I would be willing to host the next one.
  521. [3:08:52 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: I would think not too often.
  522. [3:09:01 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: We want material to discuss, of course.
  523. [3:09:06 PM] King Adam: Every six months, perhaps.
  524. [3:09:35 PM | Edited 3:09:38 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: I would say so. Though, I must note that the CCPS will be having Conferences/Congresses in November for the foreseeable future.
  525. [3:09:35 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: Aye, perhaps.
  526. [3:10:07 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: Perhaps every other Leftist Conference should actually be the CCPS Party Conference?
  527. [3:10:09 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: We ought to not be restricted to rigorous timetable but be pragmatic about when we decide it.
  528. [3:10:22 PM] King Adam: Indeed. The very idea is utility.
  529. [3:10:55 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: Yes, we should just decide ad hoc maybe a month in advance if and when we want an ILF conference.
  530. [3:11:14 PM] King Adam: In the meantime, a subforum would provide an interrim discussion point.
  531. [3:11:42 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Well, I have to reservations about that, M. Cunningham. First is that I do not want Sandus to be the hegemon of any sort of link between Leftist states. Second, should Congresses be back, I would likely move conferences to April (half a year away from November, when we used to hold our other biannual congress).
  532. [3:12:13 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: However, if none of you have reservations about holding it as a part of the annual CCPS Party Conference/Congress, then that would be acceptable to me.
  533. [3:13:06 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: Good point, M. Sörgel.
  534. [3:14:19 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Nonetheless, gentlemen, I have had an immense pleasure discussing and considering these topics with you all - I should even write down notes on what I have considered for my next Realist treatise on the process of the formation of micronations.
  535. [3:14:45 PM] King Adam: I look forward to reviewing the logs in greater depth.
  536. [3:18:17 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Speaking of the logs, I have been making live updates on the progress of the conference since it started, those are available on Veritum Sandus. I will also publish another article on what has been discussed today.
  537. [3:18:37 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: I recommend you all to publish your own articles, considering this conference was more successful than I had initally expected.
  538. [3:19:37 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: Indeed, this will be appearing in the Burnham Micropress, or even on Regal Telecom.
  539. [3:20:04 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: Is there any part of the Conference that is off limits to public presentation? Such as the creation of the ILF, or the sub forum?
  540. [3:20:40 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: I suppose that is a good question. I was thinking of publishing the entire logs.
  541. [3:20:48 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: I'll create the ILF subforum now.
  542. [3:20:55 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: But, that wouldn't make sense, then, if we wanted to not have the ILF subforum.
  543. [3:21:13 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Gentlemen, for a concensus, do you believe we should not publish about the subforum?
  544. [3:21:19 PM] Ciprian Sorin: Should the ILF be an open organisation, or based on membership?
  545. [3:21:25 PM] King Adam: I have no objection to its publication.
  546. [3:21:32 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: Why would we not have an ILF subforum?
  547. [3:21:48 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: I am all for going public about it. I still believe in transparency.
  548. [3:22:07 PM] King Adam: "Adam I of Uberstadt has concluded his speech on the micronational and socialist history of Uberstadt and the role of economics in the micronation, as well as the utilisation of Uberstadt’s “chocolate standard” as a basis for their money."
  549.  
  550. All that speech and you get the abolished chocolate money out of it. I am amused.
  551. [3:22:13 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: Of course we should publish about the subforum. It'll be visible for a brief time before I get usergroups sorted anyway.
  552. [3:22:23 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: And even then it'll be visible to Ando because he's a technical admin.
  553. [3:22:30 PM] King Adam: COMMUNISTS!
  554. [3:22:33 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: :D
  555. [3:22:47 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: CAPITALISTS
  556. [3:22:56 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: Sorry,
  557. [3:22:57 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: SHEEP!
  558. [3:22:58 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: For now, anyway. Ando will be put in the Daniel Anderson usergroup once he gets his userbar sorted.
  559. [3:23:03 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: :D
  560. [3:23:16 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: When will we be getting userbars?
  561. [3:23:21 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: Soon.
  562. [3:23:30 PM] Ciprian Sorin: I want my userbar as well
  563. [3:23:34 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: Regardless, I don't think there is anything here we should have to withhold from publication.
  564. [3:23:36 PM] Ciprian Sorin: With a plushie on it
  565. [3:23:37 PM] Ciprian Sorin: :3
  566. [3:23:48 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: Unless while I wasn't paying attention the conversation drifted into taking over the community.
  567. [3:23:58 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: Damn, you know too much, Fred.
  568. [3:24:02 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Alright, then, it can be published.
  569. [3:30:00 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: In an interesting plot twist, there is a small possibility that Nolland and Burnham could merge to increase activity, but that *really is* confidential.
  570. [3:30:43 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Very well.
  571. [3:31:11 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Alas, gentlemen, I believe it is now time to formally finish the (scheduled) CCPS Party Conference.
  572. [3:31:23 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: Indeed, this has been incredibly constructive.
  573. [3:31:39 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: This room can be transformed into the ILF room.
  574. [3:31:53 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Are there any objections?
  575. [3:32:16 PM] King Adam: None from these parts.
  576. [3:32:44 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: Not in the slightest.
  577. [3:33:30 PM | Edited 3:33:38 PM] King Adam: I must be off, gentlemen.
  578. [3:33:41 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Goodbye.
  579. [3:34:08 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: Cheerio.
  580. [3:36:21 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: Then, to finish this Conference, I will finish with the traditional songs for finishing important State and Party functions: the Anthem of the Party, the Worker's Marseillaise, and the song "The Flag Still Waves".
  581. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eScrETEASlo
  582. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmkS5HnqE2Q
  583. [5:28:53 PM] Sôgmô Gaius Sörgel Publicola: For those considering the donation and selling items, one can make a business account on PayPal under "sole proprietorship" and you don't have to declare its taxes legally unless your profit is over $10,000.
  584. [5:29:27 PM] Frederic S. "Freducator" Bayer: But you'll still need to make a business ;)
  585. [5:29:27 PM] Ричард 'Happy Days' Каннингем: Well, thank goodness none of us intend for such lofty ambitions :D
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