Nixon Ehrlichman Talk Diem Cable, Ellsberg April 28 1973

Majority of transcript and introduction are from Stanley Kutler's Abuse of Power.

As the Watergate scandal continues to unfold, President Nixon's top aides, H.R. Haldeman and John Ehrlichman have resigned. This phone call between Nixon and Ehrlichman turns tense as they discuss the things that Ehrlichman knows about and involved in. The break-in at Daniel Ellsberg's psychiatrist, Nixon asks, "It’s a question of—basically I suppose the question is who was in charge. Was Dean in charge?" "No, I was," Ehrlichman pointedly answers. Nixon brings up "some letter that Hunt prepared from, allegedly a fake letter from Kennedy on the Diem thing or something," a fake cable which implied that John Kennedy ordered the assassination of Ngo DInh Diem. "That leads directly to your friend Colson," answers Ehrlichman. "I should have been told about that, shouldn't I?" says Nixon. "Well, I'm not so sure but what you weren't," answers Ehrlichman. This post will serve as a supplement to a future essay on Watergate.

The background of the Lucien Conein mentioned here is described in detail in his obituary:
http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/07/world/lucien-conein-79-legendary-cold-war-spy.html

The program mentioned here featuring an interview with Conein is described here:
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/N%20Disk/National%20Broadcasting%20Company%20White%20Papers/Item%2003.pdf

Audio file is taken from nixonlibrary.gov:
http://www.nixonlibrary.gov/forresearchers/find/tapes/tape164/164-021.mp3

Audio with accompanying transcript is a video on youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r__XZOcaGhE

APRIL 28, 1973: THE PRESIDENT AND EHRLICHMAN, 6:33-6:54 P.M.,
CAMP DAVID TELEPHONE

Haldeman prepares to go quietly; Ehrlichmnn. however, balks. Here he pleads for separate consideration and time alone with the President. Their conversation is strained and tense. Haldeman has informed Ehrlichman that they are not being given leaves of absence. Nixon raises the question of Howard Hunt's fake cables regarding Presidents Kennedy and Diem, insisting he knew nothing about this, and places the blame on Colson. Ehrlichman responds testily, telling the President he did know, and that he clearly is uninterested in the problems of others.

PRESIDENT NIXON: . . . I had a long talk with Bill Rogers today and he made a suggestion that I think puts the Dean thing in a context that will maybe appeal to you. What he said is this: the way the cases should be separated...he pointed out that in the Eisenhower administration, they had a rule, that anyone, who was called for grand jury, and testified freely, of course, retained his position. Anybody who testified and pled the fifth amendment, or claimed immunity, resigned. And he thought that the way to present it to Dean was to say, Mr. Ehrlichman and Mr. Haldeman are going to take leave and testify freely about this matter. You can do likewise if you want to testify freely. If you want to take immunity, why, we want your resignation. In other words, so it's really going to be a resignation, because he isn't going to go in and testify freely.

EHRLICHMAN: Well, he’s all over the papers today saying that he is.

PRESIDENT NIXON: That he's going to testify freely?

EHRLICHMAN: Yes, sir.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Without immunity?

EHRLICHMAN: Yeah. That’s what he's saying.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Well, I know—I wonder. All right. That’s going to be a different game then. But we shall have to see. I saw the morning paper indicated that. That he would testify freely before a grand jury, and-

EHRLICHMAN: Without immunity.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Without immunity.

EHRLICHMAN: Now that means the jig is up. He wasn’t able to make his deal, and he’s trying to put the best face on it that he can.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Mmm hmmm, mmm hmmm. Well then...what would that mean he would then? He's going to try to bluff it through?

EHRLICHMAN: I assume so.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Try to say he didn't suborn perjury and he didn't-

EHRLICHMAN: I dunno-

PRESIDENT NIXON: You see, he's a got a few little problems-

EHRLICHMAN: Right. He's got a lot of problems and I don't know how you reconcile it, but I think you have to anticipate that he would stare Garment down on that one.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Start a what?

EHRLICHMAN: I say if Garment were sent to tell him that, or whoever it was, why he would stare them down-

PRESIDENT NIXON: But if he's prepared to do- That's the point then. If he's going to testify freely, I mean our point I thought all along was to avoid giving him immunity, so he could do more. Isn't that true?

EHRLICHMAN: Well, that's certainly true.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Yeah.

EHRLICHMAN: One of the objectives. But uh, anybody who knows anything about the case simply can't understand why he's being accorded the courtesies of the office-

PRESIDENT NIXON: Yeah. Yeah, well, let me just say then I'll have to think of something else then. All right, pal. I’ll think of something by that time. What time will you and Bob be up here, do you think?

EHRLICHMAN: At your convenience. We just arbitrarily picked 11:00, if that's a good time for you.

PRESIDENT NIXON: That's good. That's good. I'd like to meet then, then I can get on with my talk and so forth. Because I'll have to get to work-

EHRLICHMAN: Some time during the time we're there, I'd very much appreciate having a few minutes alone with you.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Sure.

EHRLICHMAN: I know that we're sort of coupled like Siamese twins in this, Bob and I, but I do have a couple of things I would like to—

PRESIDENT NIXON: I understand, Bob. John. Fine. Of course you can have some moments alone. Now let me ask one thing. Ron said that the interest today is sort of—is moving toward the California plumbers operation. Is that right?

EHRLICHMAN: Well, I don’t know. I haven’t been following it.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Yeah. On that one, I mean——well, we can talk about it tomorrow. Do you have any thoughts about it at the moment?

EHRLICHMAN: No, I really don’t. I assume that that could run quite far.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Yeah. It’s a question of—basically I suppose the question is who was in charge. Was Dean in charge?

EHRLICHMAN: No, I was.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Yeah.

EHRLICHMAN: And Krogh and Young, of course, ran the operation.

PRESIDENT NIXON: And the purpose was to look out for leaks.

EHRLICHMAN: Sure.

PRESIDENT NIXON: But from what I understood from what we have heard to date as far as so-called electronic surveillance is concerned none of that—-maybe it was contemplated, but none was tried, as far as we know, from the White House. It was from the FBI. Is that approximately correct?

EHRLICHMAN: That is correct.

PRESIDENT NIXON: That is correct.

EHRLICHMAN: As far as I know, that's right.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Mm-hmm. As far as this operation in California, do you know when he [Hunt] left?

EHRLICHMAN: No, I don't.

PRESIDENT NIXON: In other words, after he—after it happened and you learned about it, did you have Liddy and him in and talk to them about it?

EHRLICHMAN: No, no. No indeed.

PRESIDENT NIXON: How then did-—

EHRLICHMAN: I never saw them again.

PRESIDENT NIXON: How then did it get turned off in effect?

EHRLICHMAN: I talked to either Krogh or Young.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Yes. And did they inform you of the fact that...they had done it?

EHRLICHMAN: Yes.

PRESIDENT NIXON: What—in a word, what happened? They had done it? They had acquired nothing or they had?

EHRLICHMAN: Right, got nothing.

PRESIDENT NIXON: It failed, in other words. And they wanted to go back again.

EHRLICHMAN: Right.

PRESIDENT NIXON: And you negatived.

EHRLICHMAN: Right.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Right. Well, that's a solid position, I think, isn't it?

EHRLICHMAN: Well, it's what actually happened.

PRESIDENT NIXON: No. What I meant is—no, I know it’s what happened. But what I meant is, I'm just . . . saying that as far as your part of it was concerned that you- that this was something you never authorized.

EHRLICHMAN: That's right.

PRESIDENT NIXON: You learned that they tried something like this. You said that is absolutely out and you're not to do it.

EHRLICHMAN: Right.

PRESIDENT NIXON: That’s right. That's right. Well, let me say, in terms of—I realize the cases are different and we should talk about it. And uh, we'll uh- You got any thoughts? Good God, I've done a lot of praying about this, as you know.

EHRLICHMAN: I can imagine.

PRESIDENT NIXON: And uh-

EHRLICHMAN: So have I.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Course you have, John. I had a good talk with Rogers, and he feels strongly that Kleindienst must go soon.

EHRLICHMAN: Will he step in there?

PRESIDENT NIXON: No, but I have another thought that is quite intriguing. I’ll tell you about it if it works out. I'll know within a couple hours. I mean, it's one I think you'll like it, if it works. [Rogers] won't for reasons that I think are good, I mean mainly the fact that he's so Goddamn close to me you know what I mean—in terms of in a sense, he is in a public sense, you know, and all that, despite all that. But nevertheless, whatever the reason is, he isn't going to do it. But I have another name, John, that has not occurred to any of you. It occurred to me late last night, and I just busted in on him today and we've been calling the Chief Justice and a few others today on it. It may be something that’ll work. I'll know within a couple hours. As a matter of fact, if I get an affirmative on it, I'll call you back and let you know.

EHRLICHMAN: That's great. Thank you. I think that's very healthy, to make that change.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Now, on that, let me ask you this in terms of my talk. It was not my thought to mention you or Bob in the talk.

EHRLICHMAN: I would agree with that.

PRESIDENT NIXON: I don't want to talk anything about that. It was not my thought—however, on the AG [Attorney General] thing, I'd have to—it was my thought probably to do that Wednesday or, of course, if I could get Kleindienst lined up and so forth, I could bust that in the talk. . . .Just for purposes of my thinking, which would you think would be better?

EHRLICHMAN: I’d put it in the talk. The more motion you can show in the talk, the better. . . .

PRESIDENT NIXON: Well, just pray that Rogers has success in the telephone call he’s going to make in about a half hour.

EHRLICHMAN: Good.

PRESIDENT NIXON: He's on his way by helicopter. Back again. Alright, alright.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Did you have a good talk with your lawyers this morning?

EHRLICHMAN: Yes. We've drawn two lawyers, one each, which we think are—

PRESIDENT NIXON: And yours are different now, I guess.

EHRLICHMAN: Oh, yes, indeed.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Right.

EHRLICHMAN: And a draft statement-

PRESIDENT NIXON: By me.

EHRLICHMAN: By you.

PRESIDENT NIXON: -referring to-

EHRLICHMAN: -Ziegler, that's about a paragraph long. No, two paragraphs long.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Referring to one or both?

EHRLICHMAN: Referring to both.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Not referring to them separately?

EHRLICHMAN: No.

PRESIDENT NIXON: I think that's correct, rather than letters back. Rather than letters back. I see. Well, we'll look it over, and see where it is.

EHRLICHMAN: Yeah, we've been at work all day on them. They're pretty well honed. I think you will find they are all right.

PRESIDENT NIXON: You see, your case is totally differentiated in a very important way. You had nothing to do with the campaign.

EHRLICHMAN: That's it.

PRESIDENT NIXON: That’s the point that I meant. You had nothing to do at all with this whole damn period before June 19. You had nothing to do with the—well, except for the call to Kalmbach, you had nothing to do with the-

EHRLICHMAN: And that was after, you see.

PRESIDENT NIXON: No, no, no. But I mean you had nothing to do with the so-called cover-ups.

EHRLICHMAN: No. That's it.

PRESIDENT NIXON: But at that point you don't—you certainly nobody would have considered that a cover-up. Right?

EHRLICHMAN: Right.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Isn't that the position?

EHRLICHMAN: That’s it exactly.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Yeah. With regard to the papers, I'm just looking at yours in terms of your lawyer and so forth, what you did turn it over to is your statement with regard to Gray you had no reason to think that the stupid bastard was going to burn the stuff.

EHRLICHMAN: None whatever.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Incidentally, do you know who knows the contents, [Fred] Fielding, or whoever?

EHRLICHMAN: I believe it's Fielding.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Yeah. Yeah. I wonder if this stuff in the plumbers' operation comes from those papers. If they know, or Fielding or someone-

EHRLICHMAN: I would doubt it. But I don't know.

PRESIDENT NIXON: But let me ask you, where would anybody know about that, John? Dean wouldn't know, would he? He wasn't in that, was he?

EHRLICHMAN: No...he might know of it, though. He well might know of it.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Know of it from...from Krogh-

EHRLICHMAN: Yeah. Everybody confided in him. Just for counsel and advice and so on. That's what's so damn treacherous about all this.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Mmmmhmmm. Mmmmhmmm. That's right, that's right. I see.

EHRLICHMAN: You know, at one point, Dean told me that Henry Petersen was aware of that whole....business.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Well, I told- you remember when you were at Camp David, I told Petersen about it. Didn't I tell him-

EHRLICHMAN: Yeah. He's known about it for months.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Oh, he has?

EHRLICHMAN: Oh yeah.

PRESIDENT NIXON: You remember what I said to him? You cannot go into national security operations. Is that a sound position or not? It is.

EHRLICHMAN: I think it is.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Well, I dunno. Tell me if I'm wrong. It is, unless it's illegal operations. Or...isn't that correct?

EHRLICHMAN: Well, even then. I mean, because, you're FBI-

PRESIDENT NIXON: Yeah, if it's the FBI. But my point is, if it's the FBI, they can do it legally. But if it's illegal operations by a White House person is not authorized by law, the president wouldn't be authorizing a White House staffer to be doing something illegal.

EHRLICHMAN: I'm not so sure the FBI can legally do it. I think they just do it.

PRESIDENT NIXON: I think a certain number of national security...taps, for example, are allowed.

(natsec withdrawn)

PRESIDENT NIXON: What he said, I think, when he talked of the plumbers operation, Hoover said it was something regarding some letter that Hunt prepared from, allegedly a fake letter from Kennedy on the Diem thing or something.

EHRLICHMAN: Yeah.

PRESIDENT NIXON: But that, of course, is totally, totally out of our ken. Have you ever heard of such a Goddamn-

EHRLICHMAN: Yes, sir. [Sarcastically.] That leads directly to your friend Colson.

PRESIDENT NIXON: It does?

EHRLICHMAN: Yes, sir.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Hmmmmph. Had you heard of it before?

EHRLICHMAN: Yes.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Goddamn it, I never heard of it, John. What, that a fake letter was-

EHRLICHMAN: No. It's a cable.

PRESIDENT NIXON: But a fake one?

EHRLICHMAN: Yup.

PRESIDENT NIXON: From John F. Kennedy?

EHRLICHMAN: Well, that is what it is alleged to be.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Oh, my God. I just can't believe that. I just can’t believe that. The whole—you remember, you were conducting for me - you and Young - were conducting a study of the whole Diem thing and the Bay of Pigs thing.

EHRLICHMAN: That's right. That’s correct.

PRESIDENT NIXON: But, John, you will——if my recollection is correct, I just said get the facts.

EHRLICHMAN: Well, I don’t know where Colson got this inspiration, but he was very busy at it.

PRESIDENT NIXON: And he had told you that there was a fake letter or a fake cable?

EHRLICHMAN: Yes.

PRESIDENT NIXON: What did they ever do with it?

EHRLICHMAN: I dunno.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Did they tell you how they done it?

EHRLICHMAN: No.

PRESIDENT NIXON: What did he tell you, may I ask?

EHRLICHMAN: Just the fact that, they had such a thing they had ginned up. Prepared.

PRESIDENT NIXON: I should have been told about that, shouldn't I?

EHRLICHMAN: Well, I'm not so sure but what you weren't.

PRESIDENT NIXON: By whom?

EHRLICHMAN: I don't know. I don't know.

PRESIDENT NIXON: No. I wasn't told about anything, a mistake. I mean, the only thing I was ever told about it, you remember I said the thing that you did for Life magazine?

EHRLICHMAN: Yeah.

PRESIDENT NIXON: That's the only thing I ever heard about the Diem thing.

EHRLICHMAN: Well, that’s a part of that transaction.

PRESIDENT NIXON: But was the fake thing in that?

EHRLICHMAN: Right. That’s what I believe. I could be wrong on this.

PRESIDENT NIXON: You didn't know there was anything fake in that, though, did you? You didn’t tell me anything about that, John.

EHRLICHMAN: Well, I'd have to go back and check my notes. But my recollection is that this was discussed with you.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Well, I'd be amazed at that. I mean, I must say that I knew that a lot was done. I mean, I knew that we were making a study, but I didn't know that we were putting together something that was totally fake to send to Life magazine or something like that on Kennedy and Diem.

EHRLICHMAN: Well, I could be wrong on this. I'll try and get the time to check my notes tomorrow before I come up.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Yeah, yeah. Well, I've got to know about that. If I'm in—I  mean, if I'm in that kind of a position, I'm in a position I just didn't know about, believe me. I have—throughout this thing, I must say, I have not known (unintelligible)—I didn't know about the Watergate and I didn't know about the other thing. But I knew that we were checking all this. But my God, I didn't know they were faking stuff involving that on Kennedy.

EHRLICHMAN: Well, as I say, I got this second-hand.

PRESIDENT NIXON: From Young or Krogh?

EHRLICHMAN: No, no, no. I think Chuck told me one time.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Well, he sure didn't tell me. You didn't tell me, did you?

EHRLICHMAN: I don't know whether I did or not. As I say, I'd have to go back and check.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Well maybe it's better I wouldn't know if you told me. Because Chuck didn't. I mean, he never discussed the thng with me....I thought the project was in your hands. I remember you talked about it one time, about the Life - was it in the Life story?

EHRLICHMAN: Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm....no. I don't think so. I'm not sure there ever was one. I don't think Colson was ever able to bring it off.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Life or, there was something-

EHRLICHMAN: That was what he was trying for. No, there was a network interview with [Lucien] Conein.

PRESIDENT NIXON: That's what it was. Was it in that?

EHRLICHMAN: No.

PRESIDENT NIXON: It wasn't in that.

EHRLICHMAN: No.

PRESIDENT NIXON: So it was something that was never used.

EHRLICHMAN: I think that's right.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Another one of those things. Well thank God that it wasn't used.

EHRLICHMAN: But that whole-

PRESIDENT NIXON: Hunt.

EHRLICHMAN: That whole thing, and it was mostly a Hunt-Colson thing, ran off in a lot of strange directions. I really don't have a lot of information on it.

PRESIDENT NIXON: You know, the thing about that, is that Colson never told me about Hunt. That he knew Hunt, until after the Watergate thing.

EHRLICHMAN: Is that right?

PRESIDENT NIXON: I never heard of E. Howard Hunt. No sir. No. No sir. Just- Conein yes. I heard about Conein, but he said people had worked, you know, CIA people were working, and former so and so and so and so, I had never heard about...he said- I understood he doesn't know Hunt well. Or something like that. That I think, apparently, had been his line.

EHRLICHMAN: They were-

PRESIDENT NIXON: But afterwards, he said he was an intimate friend.

EHRLICHMAN: Yeah, yeah. Well, we'll—I can get back into that or not, depending on what you'd like.

PRESIDENT NIXON: You are now, just so that I can get my own thoughts, you feel that I should go—the time should be Monday for the broadcast, right?

EHRLICHMAN: I think the sooner the better.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Well, it can't be sooner than that, I guess.

EHRLICHMAN: No, but I mean-

PRESIDENT NIXON: I'll be ready Monday. I'll be- You don't want it too long, do you?

EHRLICHMAN: It oughta be as long as it has to be, I think.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Nononononono. I didn't mean five minutes.

EHRLICHMAN: There's no virtue in brevity, I don't think.

PRESIDENT NIXON: No, I don't mean five minutes. What I meant, I can't get into everything that happened. Got to leave something out. No, I've gotta say enough.

EHRLICHMAN: I think people would feel shortchanged if-

PRESIDENT NIXON: Oh no, I know. Frankly, I was thinking in the twenty twenty five minute range rather than the thirty five or forty minute range. Does that sound right to you?

EHRLICHMAN: Yes sir.

EHRLICHMAN: I gather from Bob that this leave business is a closed subject as far as you're concerned?

PRESIDENT NIXON: Yes, it has to be. I can't see any way to handle it otherwise. I think it's separable up to a point, but whatever the subject, whatever the problem is on this thing about the file thing with the Gray thing is, I mean, even though I know what the facts are and I know your story is right, I think it's something that we've just got to get cleared up. And I just don't think—I had a long talk with Rogers on that. Now, he's been an advocate of separability and he was, really—he has been—you know, I mean he was open to it. But we went into it and, John, I just feel that that's what we have to do.

EHRLICHMAN: Do you have anything from Petersen at all that we don't know about?

PRESIDENT NIXON: Nothing, nothing. And he will not tell me. You see, I closed my own door there, damn it, by saying I didn't want to know what was in the grand jury-

EHRLICHMAN: Well, there isn't anything in the grand jury that, you know, new at all.

PRESIDENT NIXON: Well, do we know that?

EHRLICHMAN: I think we do. We know the grand jury hasn't been operating for about a week. They've been off over Easter. I think he's horsing you on that. He can prepare a synopsis. John Wilson [lawyer for Ehrlichman and Haldeman] just about fell out of his chair today when we told him that.

NIXON: Yeah. Yeah.

EHRLICHMAN: He won't buy it.

PRESIDENT NIXON: This is the way I feel I have to move, John. I guess one of the prerogatives of the President is to make mistakes, you know, and sometimes you have to make some. I've made my share, but on this one I just feel it's the right thing to do, that the leave thing is the right thing at this point, if it's properly worded.

EHRLICHMAN: Well, you take a look at what we have. . . .

PRESIDENT NIXON: Alright fine. Okay bye.

EHRLICHMAN: We'll see you then.