Freenode/#lisp 2013.08.30

09:51 < dottedlist> you should all move to a different network :)
09:51 < dottedlist> like oftc
09:51 < Shinmera> Has anyone used cl-markdown or 3bmd? ( https://github.com/gwkkwg/cl-markdown ) ( https://github.com/3b/3bmd ) Cl-Markdown seems to be pretty old and inactive and 3bmd a bit too new, from what I can gather in the README.
09:52 < dottedlist> Shinmera: what is cl-markdown?
09:52 < Shinmera> A markdown to HTML parser
09:57 < Shinmera> Hm, I can't even quickload 3bmd... esrap seems to fail.
09:57 < dottedlist> does cl-markdown have anything to do with lisp?
09:58 < Shinmera> Well yes, it's a CL implementation of markdown.
09:58 < dottedlist> oh cl as in common lisp
09:58 < dottedlist> i am learning common lisp
09:59 < dottedlist> where can i get an opensource lisp machine
09:59 < dottedlist> because i really want one
09:59 < youlysses> dottedlist: In mine and many others dreams?
10:00 < dottedlist> :(
10:00 < dottedlist> someone should convince lemote to make one
10:01 < youlysses> dottedlist: The most practical solution would be to use Emacs as a pseudo-lisp machine.
10:01 < dottedlist> i use emacs
10:01 < Shinmera> Can someone try quickloading esrap? I get an error saying that the swank::*application-hints-tables* variable is unbound.
10:01 < youlysses> dottedlist: Do you use it for ~90+% of your computing+
10:01 < youlysses> *?
10:02 < dottedlist> youlysses: no
10:02 < dottedlist> i dont know how
10:02 < youlysses> dottedlist: Read the documentation, adapt your workflow?
10:05 < Zhivago> p_l: Yeah, but they're also planning on changing the semantics via things like typescript and so on.
10:10 < sykopomp> p_l: emscripten's got some nice stuff going on, and I wouldn't mind having access to fairly high-performance languages portably in the browser.
10:10 < sykopomp> such as, you know, a CL implementation that can compete with CCL.
10:11 < sykopomp> Zhivago: typescript's just another "transpiler"
10:11 < sykopomp> they're a dime a dozen in JS land.
11:35 < grubnik> wonder what the result would be in sbcl .... http://jabsoft.io/2013/08/29/why-c-still-matters-in-2013-a-simple-example/
11:44 -!- shridhar is now known as shridhar_sinBbyc
11:44 -!- shridhar_sinBbyc is now known as shridhar
11:48 < mal___> grubnik: if you tell the lisp compiler that you're ok with unsafe integer arithmetic, it should be similar to C for such simple code
12:00 < dottedlist> what is a good book that is under a free lincense and is about ai with lisp?
12:07 < _death> dottedlist: not read it, but check out http://www.markwatson.com/books/
12:08 < H4ns> _death: a book with a free license is not worth much if it is about proprietary technology (like allegrograph in this case)
12:09 < H4ns> dottedlist: i think you should consider buying "paradigms of artificial intelligence programming"
12:10 -!- _death is now known as adeht
12:10 < dottedlist> ok
12:12 < dottedlist> thanks but paradigms of artifical intelligence programming is not availible for free or from the publisher :/
12:13 < H4ns> no.  that is the "buying" part.
12:14 < dottedlist> it is allowed to be modified but it isnt availible for free?
12:14 < adeht> some years ago norvig mentioned (in a private correspondence) that he was working towards making PAIP free
12:14 < adeht> you could try to email him and see what's up
12:15 < dottedlist> adeht: i dont use email
12:15 < adeht> too bad
12:15 < dottedlist> it seems to be only availible to buy on amazon
12:16 < dottedlist> which i dont plan on doing
12:16 < dottedlist> but thanks anyways :)
12:17 < mpstyler> "On Lisp" is free
12:18 < mpstyler> you can get a pdf or ps file from the author's web site
12:18 < pillton> Couldn't you borrow it from a library?
12:19 < dottedlist> mpstyler: does it talk about ai at all?
12:19 < dottedlist> because im already reading an introduction book to lisp
12:19 < dottedlist> but if it goes into more advanced topics i might read it anyways
12:21 < dottedlist> i didnt start learning lisp because of ai though :P
12:21 < dottedlist> but seems like it could be interesting to use lisp for ai
12:23 < gleag> dottedlist: PAIP is still cheaper than the Franz stuff.
12:23 < pillton> Well, if I recall correctly, it delves deep in to symbolic computation. Which I found very useful.
12:23 < dottedlist> gleag: when i clicked buy from the author it said page not found though
12:24 < dottedlist> does that happen to you too?
12:24 < dottedlist> it might be because i was trying to view it in a text only web browser
12:24 < pillton> PAIP coupled with "The Art of the Metaobject Protocol" is a great combination.
12:25 < gleag> dottedlist: clicked what where?
12:25 < H4ns> dottedlist: is there anything else that you want to tell us about how you make your life harder?
12:25 < adeht> uses gcl?
12:26 < brucem> adeht: at least he doesn't use EuLisp.
12:26 < dottedlist> i pressed order from morgan kauffman and it says 404 page not found on the homepage :(
12:27 < Zhivago> I suggest ordering from someone else.
12:28 < gleag> brucem: Is it pronounces the same way as "eww-lisp"? :)
12:28 < gleag> pronounced...
12:28 < dottedlist> hmm
12:28 < dottedlist> i will try to get it from a book store
12:29 < adeht> dottedlist: http://store.elsevier.com/product.jsp?isbn=9781558601918&pagename=search
12:33 < mpstyler> I've bought a used copy from amazon for half the price
12:33 < mpstyler> a year ago
12:33 < dottedlist> adeht: ok thanks
12:34 < mpstyler> "used like new/good" condition has always been ok for me
12:34 < dottedlist> 109 EUR
12:34 < dottedlist> isnt that something like $120 USD
12:34 < dottedlist> i cannot afford that
12:35 < adeht> on amazon it is half that price
12:35 < gleag> The prices on Amazon sometimes fluctuate vastly.
12:36 < dottedlist> i do not want to buy from amazon, adeht
12:36 < dottedlist> i will get it for free elsewhere
12:39 < gleag> I bought SICP from Amazon when the price was low, and a week later, it went up some 70% or so. I really don't know how this online price stuff  is supposed to work, but surely doesn't work the way that my local brick bookstores work.
12:41 < Zhivago> No carpet slippers.
12:42 < pillton> Most universities I know of have a second hand book store. You might get lucky there.
12:42 < dottedlist> pillton: i do not go to a university
12:43 < Zhivago> Which book is this?
12:43 < pillton> dottedlist: That doesn't stop you from going on campus though.
12:43 < Zhivago> Have you considered using a library?
12:43 < pillton> I don't go to university either, but I sometimes go there.
12:43 < AeroNotix> you can't be cheap with your education
12:43 < AeroNotix> if you want to learn: invest in yourself.
12:44 < AeroNotix> Any employer worth your time would compensate you
12:44 < AeroNotix> and if you're a freelancer, you should be able to get a tax rebate on it
12:44 < dottedlist> AeroNotix: i have no job
12:44 < AeroNotix> dottedlist: the US probably?
12:44 < dottedlist> i believe information should be free anyways
12:45 < dottedlist> AeroNotix: yes
12:45 < AeroNotix> dottedlist: well there's your problem. Education is for capitalists in the US. You're all fucked.
12:45 < dottedlist> i cannot get a job
12:45 < AeroNotix> *cannot*?
12:45 < dottedlist> yes
12:45 < AeroNotix> Explain
12:45 < Zhivago> Are you handicapped or allergic to work?
12:45 < dottedlist> no
12:45 < dottedlist> i am under 18
12:45 < AeroNotix> So?
12:45 < Zhivago> Volunteer.
12:46 < AeroNotix> mow lawns or whatever the cliche American dream is
12:46 < dottedlist> Zhivago: you do not get money from that
12:46 < Zhivago> Anyhow, what book are you after?
12:46 < AeroNotix> dottedlist: wash cars, mow lawns, help old people with their 'groceries'
12:46 < dottedlist> Zhivago: i am after the book PAIP
12:46 < Zhivago> Maybe not, but you can get other people to buy stuff for you.
12:46 < AeroNotix> dottedlist: parents?
12:46 < dottedlist> AeroNotix: i have parents
12:46 < Zhivago> dottedlist: No libraries?
12:46 < AeroNotix> "Mom, Dad, I want to grow up to be a big and strong programmer, can I have PAIP?"
12:47 < adeht> AeroNotix: or he can write software and sell it ;)
12:47 < AeroNotix> adeht: that too
12:47 < dottedlist> adeht: i will never do that
12:47 < AeroNotix> dottedlist: ahh to be young and idealistic
12:47 < adeht> dottedlist: do you believe work should be free?
12:47 < AeroNotix> selling software is fine - depriving your users of their freedom is not
12:47 < AeroNotix> Software freedom is not about money
12:47 < dottedlist> AeroNotix: i know
12:48 < Zhivago> Anyhow, look into inter-library-loans.
12:48 < Zhivago> You can probably just borrow it for free.
12:48 < adeht> dottedlist: as in, no one should get paid, but if you find a banana on the sidewalk you can take it for free
12:49 < dottedlist> adeht: i didnt say noone should get paid
12:49 < pavelpenev> dottedlist: there is always the pirate bay, just watch out for swat teams :)
12:49 < dottedlist> pavelpenev: i use a vpn so im semi-safe
12:49 < AeroNotix> 7 proxies
12:49 < Zhivago> And invest the time required to learn how to spell "didn't" so that you can get a job if you manage to survive to the age of 18.
12:50 < dottedlist> Zhivago: i can spell didn't
12:50 < AeroNotix> but you didnt
12:50 < AeroNotix> b4
12:50 < adeht> dottedlist: you said "information should be free".. which you use to justify "PAIP for free"
12:50 < AeroNotix> Burgers should be free
12:50 < dottedlist> because it is faster to type didnt than it is to type didn't, AeroNotix
12:51 < dottedlist> adeht: yes
12:51 < Zhivago> Practicing doing things wrong makes you better at it.
12:51 < Zhivago> Anyhow ... invest in your library.
12:51 < adeht> dottedlist: so once a writer writes a book, it should be free right?
12:51 < dottedlist> adeht: if its a informational text, yes
12:52 < H4ns> dottedlist: how does the writer get fed in that model?
12:52 < AeroNotix> dottedlist: perhaps a grammar book should be free, as well?
12:52 < dottedlist> AeroNotix: yes
12:52 < Zhivago> Why should it be free if it is informational text?
12:52 < adeht> dottedlist: is there non informational text?
12:52 < dottedlist> adeht: fiction books
12:52 < adeht> dottedlist: dunno, I get a lot of information from those
12:52 < AeroNotix> dottedlist: what if an author uses a metaphor in an informational text?
12:52 < AeroNotix> should you pay for just the metaphor?
12:52 < dottedlist> i meant educational texts
12:53 < AeroNotix> since a metaphor is largely fiction
12:53 < Zhivago> Why should it be free if it is educational text?
12:53 < H4ns> dottedlist: who pays writers to write educational texts in your model?
12:53 < dottedlist> Zhivago: so that not only rich assholes get to be educated
12:53 < mpstyler> there was a country where books were almost free, but it does not exist now :)
12:53 < Zhivago> dottedlist: Do you know what a library is?
12:54 < AeroNotix> dottedlist: you're also not thinking globally. Only the US tries to cripple its students when they are trying to learn.
12:54 < gleag> adeht: 'dottedlist: you said "information should be free"' <- information is already free, aside from state secrets, trade secrets, and patents.
12:54 < gleag> And perhaps some other corner cases.
12:54 < dottedlist> Zhivago: yes and library often have outdated books and there books are often dirty
12:54 < Zhivago> And things with copyright ...
12:54 < Zhivago> dottedlist: Do you know what an inter-library-loan is?
12:54 < gleag> Zhivago: copyright doesn't protect information.
12:54 < H4ns> "i want clean books for free, you rich ass holes"
12:55 < dottedlist> :)
12:55 < adeht> gleag: my point is there's more than "information" in this context.. he actually suggests that writers who write "educational books" should do it pro bono if they do it at all
12:55 < adeht> gleag: hence, work for free
12:55 < Zhivago> dottedlist: If you want a copy of PAIP for free, I suggest that you learn how to use your library and stop whining on the internet.
12:56 < gleag> Zhivago:  Perhaps dottedlist lives somewhere where inter-library loans of English textbooks are difficult?
12:56 < dottedlist> i was going to go to my local library once but it ended up being closed
12:56 < dottedlist> also it looked small
12:56 < dottedlist> and i dont like dirty books
12:57 < AeroNotix> dottedlist: your ideals are ridiculous and you deserve to be uneducated.
12:57 < AeroNotix> Dirty books are better than no education.
12:57 < dottedlist> AeroNotix: yes
12:57 < dottedlist> but i still dont like dirty books
12:57 < AeroNotix> dottedlist: exactly how old are you?
12:57 < AeroNotix> 15/16 is my guess
12:57 < Zhivago> gleag: Well, he might live in a 3rd world country like the US.
12:57 < gleag> AeroNotix: nobody deserves to be uneducated
12:57 < dottedlist> AeroNotix: 14
12:58 < adeht> AeroNotix: no need to be harsh, just give'em a decade
12:58 < gleag> AeroNotix: that would worsen the live of everyone else and those other people don't deserve that for sure.
12:58 < dottedlist> also, AeroNotix, you are an asshole
12:58 < AeroNotix> gleag: having ideals which prevent oneself from learning are stupid
12:58 < AeroNotix> dottedlist: how so?
12:58 < gleag> Zhivago: I've just looked into my national library and the closest thing to a foreign Lisp book there is Tanimoto.
12:58 < Zhivago> He probably misspelt 'have'.
12:58 < dottedlist> AeroNotix: saying i dont deserve to be educated
12:59 < Zhivago> gleag: Which nation?
12:59 < gleag> Zhivago:  .cz.
12:59 < AeroNotix> dottedlist: you intentionally set up blocks for you to not read. Seems like reason enough
12:59 < AeroNotix> "I was going to go to my library *once*" emphasis mine
12:59 < AeroNotix> "It was small"
12:59 < AeroNotix> therefore you didn't try again?
12:59 < dottedlist> AeroNotix: i'd rather get free books from the internet
13:00 < AeroNotix> dottedlist: free books? Do you mean steal books?
13:00 < gleag> Zhivago: Apparently, we have more Gaelic textbooks that Lisp textbooks in our inter-library loan system.
13:00 < AeroNotix> (I hate the term steal, here)
13:00 < Zhivago> https://aleph.muni.cz/F?func=find-b&CON_LNG=ENG&find_code=WRD&local_base=MUB01W&request=lisp
13:00 < dottedlist> AeroNotix: no its not stealing
13:00 < AeroNotix> dottedlist: what is it?
13:00 < AeroNotix> gah, I'm arguing with a 14 year old
13:00 < AeroNotix> whatever
13:00 < gleag> AeroNotix: copyright infringement?
13:01 < AeroNotix> gleag: that
13:01 < dottedlist> AeroNotix: people who base there opinions on someone because of there are are scum
13:01  * gleag wonders why people don't use proper legal terms.
13:01 < AeroNotix> dottedlist: Is that an English sentence?
13:01 < Zhivago> Well, they're often also people who can't spell "I" so ...
13:01 < dottedlist> AeroNotix: this is irc im not going to use proper grammer
13:01 < Zhivago> dottedlist: What is your native language, by the way?
13:02 < dottedlist> it takes longer to type using proper grammer
13:02 < gleag> dottedlist: you probably wanted to say "spelling"
13:02 < dottedlist> Zhivago: english
13:02 < Zhivago> I hope it isn't English.
13:02 < Zhivago> dottedlist: Then you're a lazy, useless arsehole. :)
13:02  * gleag wonders why people don't use proper linguistic terms either.
13:02 < AeroNotix> gleag: this is irc I'm not going to use proper linguistic terms :)
13:02 < gleag> What most English-speaking people consider grammar has never been grammar. :)
13:02 < Zhivago> dottedlist: Take the care to write properly and you may find that you write things that are actually worth reading.
13:02 < dottedlist> Zhivago: i have been diagonsed by depression and you are promoting suicide
13:02 < dottedlist> with*
13:03 < AeroNotix> RAPE
13:03 < AeroNotix> dottedlist: you're on the internet, acting like an idiot. What do you expect?
13:03 < dottedlist> AeroNotix: i am not acting like an idiot
13:03 < adeht> dottedlist: you were given links to free "Lisp AI" books
13:03 < AeroNotix> oh ok
13:03 < mpstyler> this conversation looks like a turing test :)
13:03 < adeht> dottedlist: why are you still chatting
13:04 < AeroNotix> I'm sure he's trying to come up with a formal proof for Poe's Law
13:04 < Zhivago> dottedlist: Why do you think that writing correctly is equivalent to suicide?
13:04 < Zhivago> dottedlist: You might ask your doctor to test you for mental retardation.
13:05 < dottedlist> Zhivago: no
13:05 < dottedlist> cyber bullying promotes suicide
13:05 < dottedlist> which is what you're doing
13:05 < gleag> Zhivago: coz u make a f00l of urself in front of 411 ur hippy freindz if u wr1te pr0perly!
13:06 < gleag> It's just not fashionable.
13:06 < Zhivago> dottedlist: Well, hopefully if you get older you will become less stupid. :)
13:07 < Shinmera> "Oh noes, someone critiques me with valid points, it sure must be bullying!"
13:07 < dottedlist> Zhivago: other way around
13:07 < dottedlist> Zhivago: you are the stupid one
13:07 < Zhivago> dottedlist: As you get less stupid, you will hopefully get older?
13:08 < dottedlist> Zhivago: not what i meant
13:08 < Zhivago> Sorry, 'get to be'.
13:08 < Zhivago> dottedlist: See if you can express yourself coherently.
13:08 < adeht> suicide is great by the way
13:08 < Shinmera> While I enjoy a daily dose of internet drama as much as the next guy, can we get back to lisp here?
13:08 < dottedlist> Zhivago: i have aspergers