2017-12-14 Powderclimate 2

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/08/28 21:14

https://pastebin.com/6kDb3NpK

Desperation and conditioning, crime rates are higher in low-income areas because stealing is better than starving. Kids learn how to shoplift to get things they otherwise couldn't afford, and just keep doing it afterwards because that's what they have the skill-sets for. Getting sent to prison just opens up more criminal opportunities, because the larger gangs and mobs have been using the system for networking and recruiting specialized convicts like safe-crackers, hitmen, cleaners, and most recently hackers since the 30s. It creates a sort of ecosystem of where the only authority anyone involved will respect are the ones that "earned" it by starting at the bottom like they did and taking what they wanted until they're at the top of the underworld.

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/08/28 22:01

Yes, thank you, Minsheme. It's all about prevention. We should be able to make a huge difference in just a few generations.

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/08/29 05:13

@Torture King
Of course, so what do you propose? Make networking within prisons more difficult or rehabilitate everyone?

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/08/29 10:41

@Skyk
Addiction because of prescription is not true and has been used as a scapegoat for the real reason people get addicted: They abuse it. When used normally for pain, its not addicting. When overused however, it is. And I specifically said we should probably help drug addicts. addicts arent criminals, as long as they arent distributing drugs.

@Minsheme
New to debate? Welcome to the great 2017 debate.
Rehab would work better with addicts than criminals. Small crime MIGHT work, but repeat offenders or serious crime is usually unfixable. Even if a criminal is rehailitated, the prison sentence will still need to be served, whether its during rehab or before.

I agree with you on psychopathy, however just killing them from birth isnt a good idea. If they do kill someone however and ARE psychopaths, throw them in the chair immediately.

@TK
Parents should teach the proper skillsets. Doing good in school, go to college, get a job. You dont need to be rich to get good grades, you just need to study and avoid the bad kids. Whether your rich or poor, theft is always wrong, VERY few exceptions. Or we could get rich people to bring money and move into ad neighborhoods

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/08/29 10:51

AD: You are straight-up wrong. It is quite common that people become dependent on painkillers even when using them as prescribed. The idea that painkillers would be non-addictive because you're in pain makes no biological sense. In fact, many studies have shown that using them to treat pain can actually enhance the process of both psychological and chemical dependency.

I am a neuroscience with years of experience studying the science of addiction. This is not an argument you are going to win. Just shut up now before you embarrass yourself more, okay?

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/08/29 11:16

Whether or not stealing is morally wrong depends largely on what's being stolen, $50 worth of rice is not equal to $50 worth of champagne. I wouldn't condemn anyone as "bad" just because they're in a more unfortunate situation than me.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/08/29 11:30

@skyk
Then why arent all people who take painkillers for pain pill junkies? If your statement was true, painkillers would not be prescribed because everyone would fall addicted. I'd suggest you watch this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao8L-0nSYzg . I dont agree with it 100%, but it does have some really interesting parts.

@TK
So you think its OK to steal from people more fortunate than you? Why dont I just steal my neighbors lamborghini just because I dont have a car at all yet he has 7. Poor people dont absolutely NEED to steal. They can live without it.

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/08/29 12:51

Painkillers are prescribed because otherwise life-saving and life-improving surgery would not be possible, even if some (obviously not all) people develop a dependence as a consequence. If they were 100% addictive, they probably would be used less often, but they aren't, and I never claimed they were. When I said "quite common", I meant that many drug addicts begin that way. Not sure how you read that as "everyone who takes painkillers becomes a junkie".

Anyway, that video is a major oversimplification of drug addiction, and his claim that people prescribed morphine don't become addicted is just false. Rates of morphine addiction/dependence are only as low as they are because doctors typically carefully manage doses and plan for tolerance and withdrawal.

Yes, the social environment is a factor in most, if not all, forms of addiction, but it's far from the only factor or even the most significant.

Not only that, but the "rat park" experiment mentioned has been discredited for decades, ever since other researchers tried (and failed) to replicate it. Basically, that video is just an ad for yet another under-researched pop-neuroscience book, and should not inform drug policy.

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/08/29 18:07

Reading comprehension, you need some. I explicitly stated that there was a difference between stealing necessities and stealing luxuries.

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9132					#Nl3t12Mz 2017/08/29 23:22

What is this debate about? It started from global warming and is now about addictive painkillers.
(However, painkillers are like muscle relaxers: If you have to many, your heart will stop.)

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/08/29 23:28

"They can live without it"?
What about the starving and/or dehydrated, or do they fall under your "very few exceptions"?

@9132
It lived on under a new topic basically because of me. And yes, I did that on purpose. You're welcome.

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/08/29 23:43

I'll admit I got pretty tired of talking about the climate, but then AD happened to stumble into being completely ignorant on a topic I am highly educated it, so now I'm back in.

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9132					#Nl3t12Mz 2017/08/29 23:47

@Dracobot
I'm not sure if you made it better or worse.

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/08/30 04:11

"I wouldn't condemn anyone as "bad" just because they're in a more unfortunate situation than me."

I don't know what your argument is. You are just saying you are a highly agreeable person, not commenting anything about criminals. You mean it's mere determinism that brings them to being criminals? It doesn't matter, they are still criminals and they know it, there's no need to sympathise for them.

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/08/30 05:05

@Minsheme
That's the label amazingdude keeps using apparently without regard to context, "bad people". I'm saying that crime is a symptom of poverty, so throwing people in prison and calling it good is just throwing a rug over the mess instead of properly cleaning it with public works programs.

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/08/30 05:50

There are plenty of poor people who don't commit crimes out of desperation. If I stop beating people who come to steal my crops at night, what's going to happen? Of course that is different from the law, but it's analogous - even if we plan on rehabilitating rather than punishing, we have to stigmatise crime; consider reactions to crime as deterministic as crime arising from poverty.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/08/30 09:59

@Skyk
What percentage of people prescribed painkillers actually get addicted? The number is probably exaggerated. People have different addictive tendencies. Some people do crack and never touch it again, others do it once and become crackheads. People with addictive tendencies are more likely to fall addicted to anything, whether its crack, herion, or painkillers.

@TK
"Necessary" or not, theft is not OK.

@Draco
Very few exceptions is where death is literally on the line. Low income people are not at that level of poverty. Ever heard of food stamps?

@Minsheme
"Bad people" are crimnals. Crime is not a symptom of poverty. There is a fine line between poverty and crime. I did not say that crime is deterministic. Crime is caused by a will to commit crime. People with the will to commit crime are bad people, who need to be locked up. Reaction crime is justifiable (within reason) as a punishment to the initial crime committed. Beating someone up for repeated crop theft is OK, but killing them after stealing 1 piece of corn is not.

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/08/30 12:25

AD: The proportion of individuals who develop an addiction after being prescribed painkillers is difficult to measure, but it's estimated to be around 7%. That value represents the prevalence of addiction within painkiller use, which is important, but more important to our particular discussion is the role painkiller use plays in addiction. That is represented by the proportion of opioid addicts who developed addictions from prescription medication (80%, as I said).

I'm not sure if it's deliberate or if you just can't concentrate, but you're drifting away from the basic argument. You argued that addiction is a moral failing, and that society therefore has no responsibility to assist addicts. The basis of your argument is objectively wrong, as is clearly established by the fact that many addicts acquired chemical dependency from legitimate medical necessity. Whether or not there are people who aren't addicted to the same drugs has very little to do with it.

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/08/30 19:00

@Minsheme
Well of course it should be illegal, I'm just saying it's not necessarily "wrong" to take food or water or some other necessity if you otherwise can't pay for it- thieves who can pay but just won't are part of the problem. Ideally the government would subsidize you for the loss like they already do for farmers growing staples instead of cash crops.

@amazingdude
There's multiple levels of "okay" and "not okay", context is important.

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/08/30 19:18

You can easily argue that all propensity for addiction is immoral. I'd say that a fully moral and "good" person would be immunised from addiction (I am describing an almost divine person though). As you said, a big chunk of opioid use is not deliberate. Since it's arbitrary, I think it's either moral to be geared so that you're unwavered by that experience or its moral to have the will to push against the urge for continued opioid use.

@AD
I mostly agree with your pragmatic outlook. I think you misinterpreted my comment.

(I guess it depends on your definition of "moral")

@TK
You mean since they were acting out of desperation instead of malice? I agree they had no malintent, but I can't make sense of this. Were they so desperate that they forgot the law? Who decides who was in desperation and who was malicious, since it's easy to blur the line? I understand why you'd want to subsidise damage from this crime, but it is very nitty gritty. Lots of specific instances, needing verification, and their effects may not be isolated i.e. may snowball. I also don't see it being enforced without removing deterrents for crime. Why would anyone be responsible when they can simply get to a point where they "need to steal"?Even welfare would do a better job than this.

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/08/30 23:14

@Minsheme
I'm not really here to discuss philosophy, but measuring morality by the ability to resist addiction is as pointless as measuring it by the person's tendency toward seasonal allergies. If two people are given the same prescription to recover from surgery, they both follow the prescription, and one of them develops an addiction, the addicted individual isn't any worse than the other, just less lucky in terms of brain chemistry.

It's been a known scientific fact for decades that some people are inherently more likely to develop chemical dependence under the same conditions, due to a number of fundamental biological factors. Of course, this only results in an epidemic of addiction because of a true moral failing: individuals like AD who feel no responsibility to support their fellow humans, and would rather put these people in jail or out on the street while still addicted than put them through rehabilitation.

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9132					#qfLtTlAz 2017/08/31 00:58

@amazingdude
I watched the video and agree with a lot of it. There is some that i don't agree with, but the rest makes sense.

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SkyPhantomhive			#RiRWL6l3 2017/08/31 04:29

Can we talk about code? Or start an argument regarding how video game files should have an administrators code instead of being open to the public?

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/08/31 09:38

@skyk
I still believe they are at least partly at fault for their addiction.

In that case, Guy 2 should pay for rehab. Also, I have stated multiple times that people with addictions SHOULD get rehab, just that they should be responsible for the cost. The same way that some people are more likely to get cancer, but still have to pay for their health care. Have you even read that in my previous replies?

"Rehab would work better with addicts than criminals"
"I'd be fine with rehabilitating drug addicts, as long as they weren't dealing and that they pay for the rehab."
"Rehab might be feasible with drug abusers too."

@TK
Government should not subsidize poor peoples food. That's their problem, and if they can't make good money, they should get a job. The only people who deserve government help are the ones who CANT work. Anyone who CAN work but isn't does not deserve subsidized food, unless they already have a job.

@minsheme
Addictive tendency is biological, it cant be easily treated. Your comments are very philosophical and it's hard to determine your stance on the issues.

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/08/31 09:47

@skyk
It was just devil's advocate, but in retrospect it was a silly angle to try since it's biological. How about we just weed out everyone with addict genes so that we can create the ubermensch?

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/08/31 10:03

AD: You can "believe" that it's their fault, but unless you have scientific evidence for it, your "belief" means nothing against the facts. The fact is, in many cases, exposure to painkillers is unavoidable within the proper medical care, and in a significant proportion of those cases the patient develops an addiction while properly using the prescribed drug. At what part of that is the person at fault? Regardless of what you believe, you can't just force yourself to not be addicted out of willpower. If you could, no one would want to be addicted.

Saying that addicts should be fully responsible for the cost of rehab is not a solution for the addiction crisis. Addicts already have the option to try and pay for their own rehab, obviously, but the price is typically very expensive for someone without health insurance, so if the addict can't get public assistance for the cost, they will have no choice but to remain addicted, even at the cost of their wellbeing, and in many cases will have to turn to illegal drugs in order to avoid withdrawal (which can be potentially lethal outside of rehabilitating environments, by the way).

Minsheme: Aside from eugenics being very problematic from both a moral and practical standpoint, it will be many many years before we can even identify the genetic basis behind addiction or resistance to addiction.

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/08/31 20:09

https://pastebin.com/3WSBTF26

@Minsheme
I agree, welfare is better, but if someone slips through the cracks it wouldn't be wrong for them to ensure survival another way. Like the ongoing nonsense in Flint, Michigan; if it turned out that some 60% of the water bottles they're completely dependent on were stolen directly from a bottling plant, would it really be the moral thing to confiscate it back and throw everyone involved in jail?

@amazingdude
I'd argue that protecting it's people from starvation is just as important to the concept of a government as protecting them from any other danger. Pooling resources for public good is kind of the whole point of the social contract.

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Vidkunssonn				#6gkHelVa 2017/09/01 08:29

Finally, an argument involving something that actually has proven facts.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/01 11:31

@skyk
Why should we have to pay for a bunch of losers who started doing drugs in the first place? I dont want my tax dollars going to support someone who has been doing tons of drugs since he was 15.

@Skyk, minsheme
Eugenics is good for society in the end. We covered this earlier on in the debate. Eugenics can be used to eliminate inherited diseases from the population, greatly reducing healthcare costs and improving our society. Eugenics started out in the early 20th century in the US, and was very popular before some Austrian guy with a funny mustache took it to the extreme. I'd be in support of eliminating addiction genes. It's ultimately the best decision for society.

@TK
If somebody doesnt want to help poor people, then they shouldnt have to. It should be voluntary, I dont want money taken against my will to be given to somebody who fucked up in life and now relies on the govt for help. Unless he cant work or already has a job, he doesnt deserve free stuff.
On an unrelated note, this debate has officially transcended the CB limit.

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/01 12:10

What exactly do you think taxes are for? Should we also make policing, firefighting, military training, and schooling 100% voluntary?

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/09/01 12:41

AD, aside from the fact that public aid is less costly in the long run anyway, are you just gonna ignore all of the facts I've said about how drug addicts are not just "a bunch of losers"? If you're just going to base everything on your idiotic prejudices instead of any actual evidence, I'm not even going to bother talking to you any more, because you clearly don't have the capacity to listen.

And no, eugenics is not effective. I'm going to assume that no one here has a background in genetics or they would have spoken up but now, so you're going to have to believe me when I say that the most basic "negative" traits (such as a tendency toward Alzheimer's disease, for instance) are extremely complex, involving dozens of genes, many of which have not yet even been identified. Something with a less specific pathology, such as a higher rate of addiction, could potentially involve interactions between hundreds of genes. Not only that, but many of them are going to be essential on their own. Like, if you cut out all the genes that result in a tendency toward addiction, you'd inevitably end up with someone, in a best case scenario, with a totally nonfunctional motivational nervous circuit. It's not like there's just an "addiction gene" that got stuck in there that makes a person an addict.

I don't expect everyone to have a degree in genetics and neuroscience, but for heck's sake, don't use your ignorance and prejudice for the basis of political policy.

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abc123					#wgj3BymO 2017/09/01 14:55

why is there always an argument here .-.

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/09/01 16:43

Eugenics is incredibly effective, the problem is mostly that people just don't have the assertiveness to make it happen. Modifying genes before birth is more or less something for transhumanism in comparison to the benefits of not allowing disabled people to reproduce. There is no reason why doing the same for bloodlines with Alzheimer's (which is definitely NOT the most basic negative trait), for example, wouldn't work eventually, but for traits like that it would become a logistical and utilitarian problem; probably has more convenient solutions than eugenics.

Scholars of genetics are torn on how effective prenatal eugenics is so your appeal to authority isn't going to work. Darwinian eugenics works no doubt. We supplement the existence of people who needn't be alive and wouldn't be if we stopped assisting them for nothing.

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/09/01 23:16

https://pastebin.com/9J8gTnru

If you define gene therapy as eugenics (which is a pretty stretched use of the term), then yes, eugenics can be effective, but even then for diseases with a single identified gene locus, such as sickle cell anemia. For diseases such as Alzheimer's (which, as a protein-level disease, is extremely basic), several possible genes have been implicated already, with others unknown, and the consequences of removing or altering each gene is still unknown. Genetic tests already are available, but there probably won't be gene therapy available for many years. Eve then, hundreds of thousands of people have some form of familial Alzheimer's disease, so investing in eugenic measures to treat every single individual with gene therapy would be an enormously expensive project.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by Darwinian eugenics, since that's not really a term I've ever heard geneticists use, but assuming you mean a system of eugenics where selective pressure is artificially put against harmful phenotypic traits, it's pretty unlikely that would work unless the most draconian controls possible were implemented. Carriers of recessive genes, random mutation and the influence of epigenetics would make it too difficult to even identify who will express a harmful gene or set of genes. Like, the vast majority of people who know they carry a gene for early-onset AD already choose not to reproduce, and yet the disease still exists because it is still so challenging to identify ahead of time.

What evidence do you have that eugenics is effective?

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9132 on dif com			#bmL0OYbZ 2017/09/02 01:03

@abc123
There is one side who believes they're right and the other side is wrong and vice-versa. I believe that people that drink their whole lives of of other peoples money is unfair, but lets say that amazingdude thinks differently.(Although highly unlikely) I think he's wrong and it's neck-to-neck battle. Does that answer your question?

Besides, we can arrest people who take drugs, so what of it?

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/02 08:32

@TK
No, because those benefit the community. We all benefit from having firefighters and police. We dont benefit by giving a homeless dude free money. Get a job or get out.

@skyk
Most of them begin by voluntarily taking drugs. We're talking about all drugs combined, not just painkillers. These people chose to take these drugs, so they should pay to fix themselves as consequence for their actions. Sure, it is possible to be fed crack in a drink or something, but thats hard to prove as the starting point for an addiction. Poverty does not cause people to become addicted. Some people are more vulnerable to addiction than others, but in each case, the starting point of the addiction is the users choice to take drugs. Theres people vulnerable to addiction that never took drugs in the first place and are doing fine.

Darwinian eugenics works like like evolution, except WE choose who doesnt get to reproduce. Sadly, this will never happen, because Hitler took it to the extreme, and you'll NEVER gain public support for it. If we DO want to become an intergalactic civilization, we'd have to go through the process someday. Maybe it's too early, but it must be done some time for the benefit of the human species.

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/09/02 09:02

https://pastebin.com/nL0GkPia

Okay, let me make an outline so that it's very clear why eugenics is not an optimal strategy:

To target a genetic disease, the gene locus must be identified, which in most cases will most likely not happen for years or even decades with focused research.

Genetic diseases are typically not visible phenotypically, because of three factors:
* Carriers of recessive traits
* Diseases which don't manifest until late in life
* Epigenetic suppression of disease genes (a phenomena which, notably, was not well understood at the time when eugenics was still a popular scientific view)

So, to identify everyone carrying harmful genes, dozens of genetic tests must be performed on every person in the population. The population (whether it's a city or country) would then need to either:
* Be totally isolated to prevent outside genetic material from entering
* Implement the most effective border control of all time
* Or, just test the entire population of the Earth

At this point, we're already talking about an expense that is magnitudes higher, even at a local scale, than the most generous healthcare proposals for the entire United States, and that's not even getting to the actual issue of how you intend to regulate reproduction.

If you're going to prohibit reproduction for everyone that carries one of the thousands of possible genetic mutations that can cause disease, you're going to have to impose that on a huge proportion of the population (I can't even estimate how huge, because as I've said the amount of testing this would require to even begin with would be extremely expensive). Aside from the practical cost, the society would have to deal with the inevitable resistance and, if the restrictions are successful, the proportional drop in population (and good luck bringing in outsiders to fill in for the shrinking labour force when you have to genetically screen all of them, too).

And of course, because the nature of most of these diseases comes from mutation, you will have to repeat this process every generation to make sure the diseases don't just spontaneously reappear anyway.

Is that really better than just communally paying for public healthcare? I'd rather give poor people medicine than pay a thousand times more to have random people sterilized.

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/02 18:23

I'm not saying "give homeless people free money" I'm saying that everyone has as much right to live as anybody else. If someone has higher aspirations than mere survival, (this might shock you but most people at least have a hobby that costs money) then they'll likely get a job on their own to pay for it once survival is the sure thing it's supposed to be in civilized society. If you insist on oversimplifying it it's basically "Expand the scope of the Food Stamps program to include everything needed to live, no more no less.".

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/09/02 21:20

You're putting a lot of trust in people's default nature

@skyk
There is not much to calculate in the effectiveness of eugenics. If there is any objection to sterilising hereditarily disabled people apart from a logistical one then I'd like to hear it.

Here's a relevant video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1Hka36EGgU

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/09/02 23:53

Minsheme: https://pastebin.com/PxK6WqFp

I mean, there are many many people who could make ethical and philosophical objections to sterilizing people based on their genetics (because, to actually remove a genetic disability from the population, you would have to target carriers, not just people actually expressing the gene), but I had a feeling you and AD wouldn't really care that much about ethics, so I've been focusing on the practical aspects.

Brennan's proposal is not the sterilization of hereditarily disabled people, anyway. He essentially proposed that gene sequencing should be more easily publicly available, and that carriers of genes related to severe disability should be incentivized to either not have children, or use gene therapy to treat the child's disability congenitally. This is a more reasonable proposal, but it's still not that feasible in the present. Brennan brought up that gene sequencing is getting cheaper, but it is still very expensive, especially when you consider that there are thousands of genetic disabilities, many of which can be carried invisibly. There's a reason the film Gattaca is science fiction.

It's true that supporting disabled adults can cost a lot of money to a society, but all the effort in Brennan's proposal wouldn't effectively reduce that compared to how much it would cost to sequence every prospective parent, when you consider that the majority of even congenital disabilities are environmental or develop from mutations during development rather than parental genes, not to mention disabilities that develop through sickness or injury later in life.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/03 02:40

https://pastebin.com/VFJMtm8B

@skyk
Require by law that all babies will be genetically tested for diseases. In around 100 years, you'd have the entire population measured. Eugenics takes centuries.

I'd say its more unethical to keep the diseases circulating in the population. We'd have the ability to cure all inherited diseases, and the rate of mutation is so small it wouldnt cause a disease to spread, especially with from birth testing. If we can somehow edit genes in the womb to cure the disease, that'll be fine.

It's bad from our perspective, but what if in 200 years it becomes way more feasible and the public's opinions change? Many people right now with inherited diseases don't WANT to have children because of it. Who's to say this wont continue in the future? Theres options already, there's adoption and artifical fertilization. I'm only objected to spreading of their genes, not them raising children.

Morals vary by society. In this society, sterilization of the diseased is very wrong, but during the eugenics movement, it wasn't. Who's to say it wont change in the far future, and maybe the disabled wont even want to have children?

Sure, we can just pay for healthcare for everyone, but that completely avoids the issue. Thats like saying "Why cure cancer when you can treat it?" Either way, people are still suffering from diseases they were born with, and no matter how free it is, healthcare is still a pain in the ass. Nobody WANTS to go to the doctor, free or not free. These diseases arent going to stop from appearing if we just treat them. Prevention is the best medicine.

@TK
Then why don't we help them get jobs, not free money? If we get them a job, they can benefit society AND make money. Like I said dozens of times before, the ones who CANT work can receive free money, but thats all. Teach a man to fish. You can't expect society to give to you if you dont give back.

@minsheme
I agree with that guys video, and coming from a disabled guy, it's really powerful. This guy presents a great viewpoint, and it should seriously be considered.

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/03 08:10

@Minsheme
I trust that most people are greedy enough to want more than a small apartment and some cheap meals to occupy their time with. I also trust that most of those are lazy enough to find a hobby they can make some extra money with like basket weaving or whatever.

@amazingdude
It doesn't have to be money, it could just be a care package with the essentials- like the kind they drop in Africa sans malaria medicines. Plus it's really hard to hear back from a job offer if you don't have a phone number and/or house address; speaking from experience, almost nobody actually uses the email address on a resume to get in contact. I got a physical letter once, but not 1 in 17 applications resulted in an email.

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/09/03 09:11

@skyk https://pastebin.com/JCApqGFR

What is unethical exactly? As Brennan says, it's now normal to claim that a disabled life should be no less full than any other life. I see no way around the fact that this perniciously devalues everyone who isn't disabled.

As far as I can tell, his ideal was that disabled lives are a backwards part of society and if it could be done in the flick of a switch they should all be removed. The rest is about implementation and handling the momentum of the system we have now (there are countless gears set in motion that would need to go in the opposite direction).

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/03 09:25

@TK
That might work well in a socialist society, but we're not socialist. The problem with that is that it will motivate them to stay unemployed. "Why should I work if I get fed for free and have all this time to walk around and do shit?" Thats not solving a problem, thats avoiding it altogether. Lack of work is the cause of poverty, and by giving the care packages to everyone who is unemployed, able to work or not, your incentivizing them to not work.

If email is their only option to contact, they will use it. The reason you didnt get an email was because you supplied phone and house address. If you didnt, they would have contacted by email.

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/03 17:36

https://pastebin.com/A5Tcv5pU

All that a capitalist society requires is a system of Haves and Have Nots to fuel the endless exchange of money for goods, there's no reason the thing that Have Nots don't have should be their lives. Think about how boring it would actually be to have the bare minimum and a clear mind that isn't 100% focused on surviving the here-and-now. No books, electronics, coffee, restaurant meals, games, art supplies, furniture, fancy cars, music, candy, pastries, etc. Plus it takes money to maintain and replace a lot of the luxuries already owned, somebody that spends every day jogging around town will end up going through a lot of running shoes that probably only get replaced by the State once every few years.

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/09/04 05:25

TK https://pastebin.com/DK8ySeM4

That was conflicting. Marxist dismissal of capitalism followed by "life would suck if [Marxist society]". What you're suggesting about primal survival, quelling boredom etc is pretty naturalistic and therefore conservative. That also calls back to the first sentence "fuelling the endless exchange of money", I don't know why that's written like it's something negative, but what actually fuels it if anything is markets, largely rooted in naturalism, and they exist so that "lives can be unboring" among whatever else. The alternative is to supplement the fruits of people's lives through the state.

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/04 10:46

https://pastebin.com/YAng2FVe

I'm actually a constructivist, not sure where you got the idea that I'm a Marxist. I would say an endless exchange of money for goods is the definition of a stable market, people wouldn't be trading things if it didn't benefit them in some way.

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/09/04 11:39

Just from "haves and have nots", it seems to be common in Marxism/its followers and I assumed it came from oppressor vs oppressed.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/04 11:50

@TK
If they want to live a fuller life, then they should give back to society by working. Trumps wall will create tons of jobs.

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/09/04 12:00

For crying out loud, TK. Endless e.xhange was the problem both times.

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U HAVE 2 VOTE!!!		#KbsngwXs 2017/09/04 13:32

How about have ha55ii add delete comments? That way you can send deletion requests to hate comments and of they get more than 10 deletion requests in a day, it will get removed. ONLY in PG1 and PG2 comments. In other comment sections hardly anyone goes there.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/04 14:16

@U Have 2 Vote
I disagree with that idea. Everybody is entitled to their opinion. They may be dragged into a 4 month long debate or absolutely roasted, but they have the right to their opinion. I can choose not to believe in man made global warming, or TK can be a socialist, but we both have the same right to our opinion, right or wrong.

Deletion by vote is a form of censorship, and ANY form of censorship is bad. If your proposal was implemented, the CB would turn into an echo chamber of popular opinions with no real discussion.

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/04 17:52

@Minsheme
Haves produce and sell resources in excess, Have Nots consume and purchase resources when they want something. It's the most basic class system that can exist and likely the most fair to the lower class because it doesn't imply divine right or some other nonsense.

@amazingdude
At best the Wall is a bandage, it's not going to be in construction forever, most of the country's homeless have no way to travel that far south, and when construction's done it'll require far less civilian effort to maintain. And of course, it's not going to be very effective at its stated purpose. A better project for temporary construction jobs would be repairing and expanding Eisenhower's interstate system, which is definitely useful but falling apart in more rural areas that can't afford to maintain more than gravel roads.

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9132					#Nl3t12Mz 2017/09/04 23:37

Out of all the states to suffer, we are the worst. I live in Arizona and half the people don't even speak english. Do you know how hard it is hearing someone say"Your brother died in Nogales trying to defend himself in the middle of a warzone?" We need the wall to protect our country from bloodthirsty illegalls.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/05 02:46

https://pastebin.com/a5bbupYL

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@TK
I still think the wall is a better idea, coming from a place where illegals are almost the majority. We've let too many of them in and they're replacing US citizens, taking our jobs, our tax dollars, and multiply like spiders. People wonder why so many people move out of California, this is why. California is slowly being turned into Mexico, and all the Americans are moving out because of it. It sounds racist, but it's true: Many parts of the southwest US are being overrun by illegal immigrants, and we need to do something about it. "We are a nation of immigrants". IMMIGRANTS, not refugees. We shouldnt have to take care of everyone just because their country has problems.

Diversity's great, but not when half the population doesnt even bother to learn our culture and come here legally, and are almost turning us into Mexico. We cant just let millions of people come into our country uncontrolled. Their country is fucked up, but that doesnt give them the right to migrate all their people somewhere else for free. Thats running away from their problem and not facing it. As a US citizen, I felt like my government didnt care about me anymore. People who come illegally are getting better treatment than real US citizens who have been here for generations. I'm pissed at Obama for letting it happen, and at least Trump wants to do something about it.

Birthright citizenship needs to be updated for the 21st centry. You shouldnt be able to climb a fence, pop out a baby, and climb back over and have that baby be considered just as American as you or me.

Maybe you'll understand, maybe you'll think I'm a xenophobic bigot, but the undenyable truth is that mass migration destroys the native population and culture. Ever heard of Columbus? I dont mean to compare the illegal immigration crisis to the native american genocide, but you get my point.

Never thought about improving the interstate highway system. I'd love to have that done. How much more plausible is that than a wall?

@9132
What part of Arizona are you from? If your brother really did die, I feel really bad for you and angry at the government.

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/05 08:06

https://pastebin.com/qzZitnMA

1) Being illegal they generally don't have the paperwork for any job that's over-the-table, under-the-table jobs themselves are quite illegal so that's reason to pressure employers for preferring tax fraud to fair business practices rather than the employees for doing what they can when they can.

2) I agree, proof of citizenship or at least documentation of going through what is apparently a 5 year (minimum) process should be a requirement for receiving social security benefits, etc. if it isn't already.

3) No reason to be mean, I imagine the birthrate isn't that drastically off from any other predominantly Catholic population.

4) I was under the impression that the US's war prizes from the Mexican-American war have always had predominantly Mexican populations, how do you tell who's broadcasting their illegality and who just has a large amount of pride in their cultural heritage?

5) Yes, absolutely none of our major immigration waves were refugees fleeing from countries with problems, certainly not the original Puritan colonists, victims of the Irish Potato Famine, thousands from Imperial China that had basically never heard of democracy or life outside of a caste system, a few million Jews fleeing Eastern Europe, or still more refugees fleeing from a significantly more war-torn Europe, Soviet Union, and Cuba. No, all of our ancestors came from places without any problems. /s

6) Stages of grief as applied to culture shock, they don't want to admit that they were forced to basically give up on their homeland and leave, so they choose to "deny" it pretend it's still Mexico. Lots of foreign nationals all over the world end up doing the same thing for their respective cultures of origin; their kids and their kids' kids will probably be just as American as the next guy if history continues to repeat itself.

7) Agreed, though I'm having trouble imagining a suitable replacement that wouldn't be draconian.

8) Don't worry about it, I almost never write people off as bigoted, I might wonder at whether they have anything to gain politically or financially for doing something I perceive as pointlessly aggressive but usually I figure they're having a bad day.

9) Actually about 70% of the native population were already dead before the SmallPox blanket thing Andrew Jackson did. Patient Zero for the plague is thought to have been a slave on a Spanish ship about 200 years before the first boat full of Englishmen arrived. And since the dominant medical theory of the time claimed that bad smells or "miasma" were responsible for disease and "germs" were unprovable nonsense only quacks believed in, most of the genocide was completely by accident.

10) Well they're all over the country rather than just across the southern border, so it'd take at least 5 times more labor to get it done. Or something, probably more or less depending on conditions between states. And since the original Interstate system was mostly concerned with maintaining order after a hypothetical nuclear apocalypse, what we have isn't prepared for the sort of things we've been needing it for.

Like the hurricane in Houston, the reason there wasn't an evacuation before it hit was because the last time Houston evacuated for a hurricane it resulted in a massive traffic jam on the highway and hundreds of people died in their cars. If the Interstate were constructed with evacuations in mind then that probably wouldn't have happened and the current flood would probably be more of an inconvenience than anything life-threatening.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/05 09:06

https://pastebin.com/vFsXbeKz

@TK

1. Many of them use fake documents to get work. Even still many work under the table and dont pay taxes. Companies are desperate for labor.

2. It probably already is, however they stil give it anyway, or they use fake documents.

3. Last I checked hispanics have the highest birth rates out of any group in the country.

4. I thought the same, however looking at demographics on Wikipedia shows the entire southwest getting more hispanic every 10 years since 1970, when the category was added to the census. After a few generations, immigrants become fully assimilated. For example, Most white Americans arent celebrating the Queen's birthday or other Eurpoean traditions anymore. With all this, I find it hard to believe that most people in these areas have been there for hundreds of years ever since the Spanish founded the colonies. The culture is just too strong.

5. Never thought about that. I always thought people came here because they loved America and wanted to make it better, not just running away from their horrible country.

6. That actually makes alot of sense, however pretending you're still in the country you fled isn't very healthy.

7. I've got a proposal. Anyone born in the US would be considered a citizen if one of their parents was a citizen. That means if people immigrate legally from another country, become citizens and have a child, that child is a US citizen. However if somebody climbs the fence, pops out a baby, then climbs back over, that baby is not a citizen. At this point in history, the US has a natural population, and citizenship should follow. European countries dont have automatic birthright citizenship. I also believe the idea of a "melting pot" is outdated. We are our own country, with a unique identity and culture. The melting pot has cooled.

This does not solve the problem with anchor babies already born, however, but that issue has no good solution. They shouldnt be here, but they've lived here all their lives, so deportation isnt really right either. We can solve illegal immigration, but the damage has already be done.

8. Reddit is a liberal echo chamber, say anything slightly right of center you'll get destroyed, downvoted, and banned. So is my home city.

9. Interesting.

10. Widening freeways wont make it much faster in evacuations. Crowds dont cause traffic, Lane changers do. Even still, 4 lanes going 5mph is better than 2 lanes going 5mph. How exactly would we better prepare our roads for mass evacuation? I support your idea of upgrading the interstate highway system, but I just dont know how it will be done. Only thing I can think of is reversible lanes and bidirectional signage. Safer bridges and flood prevention perhaps?

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/07 02:25

https://pastebin.com/CBY9HuZ7


1&2) If companies are so desperate for labor, how can there still a shortage of jobs among citizens? They get to pick who they hire and if they choose someone with sketchy documentation who will work for half or less of minimum wage that's on them for being vultures.

3now2) Is that counting people who specifically got pregnant to have a kid north of the border? Because I feel like gaming the system like that would throw off a lot of fertility statistics.

4now3) Most white Americans are actually ethnically German, about 46 million as of 2014. In 1910 German was the second most spoken first language in the country, it only changed in the wake of WW1 and WW2 when everything German was stigmatized. In any case, hamburgers, hotdogs, kindergartens, and Christmas trees are still just as ubiquitous in the US as they were in the 1800s. Just as I imagine tortillas, sugar breads, and (I dunno, Dia de los Muertos? That's bombastic enough already I'm surprised it's not here by now.) will probably be ubiquitous in the 2100s.

7now4) That could work, there's some precedence with older immigration law that requires a spouse/family member already living here to vouch for immigrant hopefuls, short be short work to stretch that definition over fetuses.

10now5) I was thinking of adding more exit/entry lanes onto it. Like, I live right on I-5 and it's the only way onto the network from my city without taking some backroads to the next town- despite city limits sprawling over two different counties. If there were say, if there were any reason to evacuate the people living in the "back" would have to wait for everybody else to leave first, but with more entries onto the highway spread more evenly across every population center there'd be less rush to get to any one in particular and traffic flow would improve drastically. I think. My only experience with traffic design is from Sim City.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/07 08:41

@TK

1. They still take the risk by hiring them, and many use fake documents as described as before. Maybe they even cover it up and lie about their legality status to the government. Companies will take major risks to make profits.

2. I'd assume so, as its out of all births in the US. It could also be that in interracial marriages with a hispanic, the baby is considered hispanic, as opposed to mixed, in other interracial marriages.

3. Already are in some areas, no doubt all around in 80 years. It's almost as if history is repeating itself, except with mexican culture. I personally disagree with it, but its happening.

5. I agree with that. We do need more exits on our freeways, however not too much, as that would just make traffic worse on normal days. No more than 1 exit per mile. While we're at it, let's upgrade freeway interchanges to be full access, so you dont have to take side streets to get on the right freeway direction.

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{No reply to the above comment, golden age of debate ends}

================================================== {Topic shift 2}

amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/08 13:07

As an object gets larger, it looks larger. As an object gets further away, it looks smaller. If it is infinately large (A strech plane), it will cover exactly 1/2 of the possible angles you can view it from. If an object is infinately far away, it will vanish.

If an infinately large object is infinately far away, what the hell happens?

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/09/08 17:50

You see nothing, of course. Same reasoning for why the stretch plane covers 1/2.

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/09/08 21:52

@amazingdude
I know where this is from. If the object is infinitely far away, light takes an infinite amount of time to reflect off of the wall and reach your eyes, so you would not see it.

When you ignore this, you have to be careful. Infinity is not a set number, so every time we use it we treat it as a general amount relative to everything else. Because of this, it depends (the ratio to the wall to its distance away is indeterminate). If the wall had a surface area of א_one units and it was a distance of א_naught units, then we would be able to see it because its size vastly overwhelms its distance. If it's the other way around, we would not be able to see it because the distance vastly overwhelms its size. The infinity is still there because א_naught and א_one both represent infinity.

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OwenDaPanda				#VYQpyVtv 2017/09/08 22:06

There is some deep shit going on here

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U HAVE 2 VOTE!!!		#E2nuHWpX 2017/09/08 22:29

@amazingdude that doesn't make sense because you can't divide infinity by infinity.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/09 07:26

So does anyone wish to continue the Great PG2 Debate?
amazingdude #padtckOV 2017/09/07 08:41

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U HAVE 2 VOTE!!!		#ZiAQL0tb 2017/09/09 07:38

@amazingdude Nobody needs to be in the Great PG2 Debate. It just might start a big argument and possibly a "war" like in PG1.

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amazingdude				#N1hn3TpZ 2017/09/09 10:34

The debate is so long, the limit swallowed the beginning.
Also, comments aren't really deleted. Some dude found comments going back years hidden in dbs servers

so the debate is officially over then :(
I was hoping to set a record.

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/09 12:40

Still, I'm game for more debating if there's still any ground to cover. Last one kind of petered out into "I agree with this" "me too", and at that point you may as well just find a mirror to agree with.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/09 12:44

Someone give us debate topics. Let the Great PG2 Debate live on!!!

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/09/09 12:55

Who do you believe: Newton, Leibniz, or was it Archimedes all along?

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OmegaPirate				#ThE7mUFZ 2017/09/09 13:21

It was all aliens, Draco.

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/09/09 15:04

Kind of funny how the solution to "what do you see if an object is infinitely far away" puzzle could contradict the one about an infinite stretch plane covering 1/2. It would never reach 1/2 if light had to travel infinitely. I thought this was just a hypothetical so things like light wouldn't be taken into account.

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CapsLock				#KirKIu4r 2017/09/09 16:07

Bush did 911
there, thats a debate topic ;)

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/09/09 17:41

Depends what the "Bush" entity means. Yes, Jews did 9/11 and Bush happened to be the nominal leader at the time.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/09 23:59

@capslock
Well not specifically Bush, I do believe there is more to it than just 19 terrorists hijacking passenger planes. For example, pilots had to be involved in training the hijackers, or maybe even being the hijackers themselves. Perhaps there were explosives planted on the planes. Something just doesnt seem right about the official story.

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/10 01:11

It's a matter of public record that they were in fact trained by US forces, about 3 decades before 9/11 as a way to hassle the USSR's interests in the middle east. That's also around the time Bin Laden's posse was radicalized into perceiving any and all foreign involvement in the middle east as colonialism- because at the time the Pentagon was still more concerned about potential dangers of communism than making and arming over a dozen xenophobic lunatics.

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OmegaPirate				#ThE7mUFZ 2017/09/10 04:25

If you don't know, blame it on one of these three things:
Jews
ISIS
Obama/Trump

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Vidkunssonn				#6gkHelVa 2017/09/10 04:53

I blame Jaden. It's all Jaden's fault.

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9132					#Nl3t12Mz 2017/09/10 04:56

Who the hell is Jaden?

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/10 05:12

@TK
So 9/11 is our own da,mn fault. fucking lovely.

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/09/10 11:53

Continuum Hypothesis: true or false?

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U HAVE 2 VOTE!!!		#5mbMD9a9 2017/09/12 12:33

Don't put puzzles or opinions unrelated to PG in the comments. They start arguments.

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/09/12 12:43

Comments 2017/06/08 to 2017/09/12
https://pastebin.com/VQ1748Cn

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/12 13:54

@skyk
I've got backups from when the debate started. I compiled an archive over the past few weeks. This one starts at the top, has dividers, integrates pastes, and uncensors words

Last minute debate topics? #LongLiveClimateDebate

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OwenDaPanda				#VYQpyVtv 2017/09/13 00:33

Everyone debate this
9/11 was a planned explosion
All the planes were cgi on the videos
And there were explosives in the building

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9132					#Nl3t12Mz 2017/09/13 01:43

Well, it was suspicious.

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/13 02:34

Yes, it was absolutely planned, you don't just hijack an airliner and plow it into a building because you've got a day off of work and have nothing better to do.

New York City is one of the most constantly active populated cities in the world, how the hell would a doctored video convince any of them the planes they saw didn't exist.

Maybe? For all we know the janitor was planning on going Postal later that evening. In any case, a bunch of old guys in the desert pissed off that the US has "colonialist" airbases everywhere have a lot less to lose than gain from the tactic than a draconian US government does from destroying an edifice of economic power and demoralize their people to get a resource they already have in surplus.

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OwenDaPanda				#VYQpyVtv 2017/09/13 04:55

What I mean by planned event was that it was the government and they just told everyone that there were planes as they belived it.

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9132					#Nl3t12Mz 2017/09/13 05:32

@OwenDaPanda
Your wrong. It was a setup, knowingly or not.

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CamMax1305				#CZMwa3uo 2017/09/13 06:00

I watched a video where it was the plane crashing into 2 second tower in slowmo and it looked so CGI and the explosion was delayed

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/09/13 06:26

I think the fire department there happened to be filming something near the Towers right at that moment, so they got the planes on their own camera in completely accidental circumstances.

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4783937279458294		#bS1191YD 2017/09/13 06:54

Well, relating to OwenDaPanda if they in fact were not planes what were they?

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/13 07:28

@OwenDaPanda
You seem to have skipped right over my main argument so I'll reiterate.
There's no motive; anybody demonstrating the competence it takes to arrange something like that, frame somebody else, and bury the truth for 16 years is going to be rather competent by necessity. But the US government didn't gain enough out of the ordeal to justify the loss in economic power and civilian morale. Only an idiot would make that move, but an idiot wouldn't be able to.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/13 07:34

Like I said, I believe there might have been explosives hidden on the plane. Something more than just jet fuel.

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OwenDaPanda				#VYQpyVtv 2017/09/13 08:17

@4783...
They aren't anything. All the "planes" were just CGI in the news videos, and all the planes that people saw were just a suggestion from the government. (Or the people who staged it)

@TK
It doesn't excactly need to be the government. It could be terrorist, but they didn't crash some hijacked planes, all they did was set explosives and then suggest to everyone that it was planes.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/13 08:59

@Vidkunssonn {OwenDaPanda}
But we actually saw the planes...

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OwenDaPanda				#VYQpyVtv 2017/09/13 09:30

You didn't see the planes, you THINK you did, but that's just te power of suggestion, and they are not accualy there.

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4783937279458294		#bS1191YD 2017/09/13 09:48

@OwenDaPanda
What are you suggesting?

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Madisonflame			#kdpeI8WM 2017/09/13 11:17

Can you guys just STOP talking about it.....
LIKE MY GOD.

DON'T FORGET ABOUT THE PENTAGON GETTING HIT AS WELL, THEY RECORDED A PLANE HITTING IT.
NOW STOP TALKING ABOUT IT.

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OwenDaPanda				#VYQpyVtv 2017/09/13 11:58

(Sorry Madison, but they wanted debates, and I like debates, so long as they aren't about stuff that's tooooo stupid)

What I'm sugesting is that someone like a terrorist or a group of terrorist that planted some bombs in the towers. They then had some waiting in the ground to spread the word of a plane hitting the towers, so people would belive that they had been hit by a terrorist hijacked planes.
But really, there were no planes.

PS I know that there really were planes, but I heard that you wanted a debate


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U HAVE 2 VOTE!!!		#5mbMD9a9 2017/09/13 12:15

Guys don't comment things unrelated to PG because they start arguments.

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Vidkunssonn				#6gkHelVa 2017/09/13 12:28

@amazingdude
Why did you tag ME?

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/13 13:20

I saw the purple and thought it was you.

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/13 14:32

@U HAVE 2 VOTE!!!
Yeah but they're tame arguments with no ad-hominems, it's not like we all hate eachother.
Dissent isn't automatically a bad thing.

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/09/13 14:54

@UH2V
1. I challenge you to talk about something that hasn't been discussed before.
2. I think the best element is mercury. Anyone want to prove me wrong?

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9132					#Nl3t12Mz 2017/09/13 23:17

@OwenDaPanda
We have all sorts of factual evidence. We have thousands of witness'. An RPG might of been set off. And the people on the airplane were probably prisoners from a terrorist country. Also, I really don't think that it was a passenger airplane in the first place. Planes shouldn't be flying near those buildings in the first place.

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OwenDaPanda				#VYQpyVtv 2017/09/13 23:56

@9132
Everyone just thinks they saw the planes. There weren't actually planes. They saw the explosions and some brought up the idea of a plane hitting the buildings. This idea spreaded, and soon, due to the power of suggestion, people started to think that it had been planes.

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9132 #2					#bmL0OYbZ 2017/09/14 01:01

@OwenDaPanda
How many times do I have to tell you that they were airliners. The government cleared them as" Hijacked PASSENGER AIRPLANES". Is that enough proof?

Although I said they probably weren't passenger airplanes, I go with what the government said. Not what you think up.

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OwenDaPanda				#VYQpyVtv 2017/09/14 01:11

@9132
The thing is, the government cleared them as hijacked passenger airlines, but that was the very same government who is possibly the organization behind the 9/11 bombs. They cleared them as "passenger airlines" because that's what they wanted people to belive.

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/14 02:15

Except they have nothing to gain, it comes back to that "nobody with those logistics would be that stupid" thing again. People generally avoid spending large amounts of time and resources on something unless they get something more valuable for it.

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OwenDaPanda				#VYQpyVtv 2017/09/14 03:41

They get war

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9132					#bmL0OYbZ 2017/09/14 04:48

Maybe they had an abundance of materials and decided to have a little "fun".

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/14 05:08

War is a means not an end.

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Madisonflame			#kdpeI8WM 2017/09/14 05:17

I told you guys to stop bloody talking about it!

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/14 05:19

Yeah well, we don't know you and have no reason to value your opinion more than usual.

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9132 					#bmL0OYbZ 2017/09/14 05:24

WE'LL NEVER FREAKIN' STOP!!!

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OwenDaPanda				#VYQpyVtv 2017/09/14 05:55

There was no reason they just wanted a war cause they were psychopaths!

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4783937279458294		#bS1191YD 2017/09/14 06:54

yeah, there's not much debate on this subject.

================================================== {Topic shift 3}

amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/14 07:48

Increase NASA's budget. There really is no reason not to.

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/14 08:01

Seconded.

https://pastebin.com/8SmwfGwk {https://www.sciencealert.com/it-s-official-nasa-s-peer-reviewed-em-drive-paper-has-finally-been-published}

All we need is to refine this thing and strap it onto a drilling rig and we'll basically be post-scarcity from all the asteroid mining. It's an investment with infinite returns.

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/09/14 08:11

If they were psychopaths, then what's holding them back from just declaring war directly? Clearly they wouldn't care what the US population thought of them. If they weren't *really* psychopaths, it would be stupid to want war, just because of how many important resources it takes away.

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hotdogeater1000			#LiLWHMJE 2017/09/14 09:18

Also, if we increase NASA's budget, we could set up a helium mining colony on the moon, which would be helpful because that helium (specifically Helium-3) could be used to power some other machines, and it could be used for other things helium is used for.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/14 10:01

@TK
I dont really know what an EM drive is. Someone give me an ELI5?

@hotdogeater
We're running out of He-3. Support.

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/14 10:32

My understanding is that it's a copper cone that you bounce microwave radiation into and somehow that creates thrust; so it's a purely electric rocket.

The first round of testing has been done and while nobody understands how exactly it works (this thing is in violation of Newton's Second Law by not throwing anything out the back end to move forward.) NASA was unable to prove it didn't work and so Russia and China have started on their own prototypes and if the mad science continues to pan out we're basically guaranteed several space-mines in the next few years.

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hotdogeater1000			#LiLWHMJE 2017/09/14 10:39

Another great thing about a colony on the moon is we could launch rockets from the moon, which would be way easier as 1. you dont have to deal with an atmosphere and 2. lower gravity.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/14 11:28

@TK
Could we use that to generate energy? I would totally support this.

@hotdogeater
You also have to launch stuff from earth to get to the moon, so it kinda defeats the point. Unless we get a fully selfsustaining moon colony, which will also need to get people there.

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U HAVE 2 VOTE!!!		#5mbMD9a9 2017/09/14 12:16

How is this related to the Powder Games?

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/14 12:44

I doubt it, by all reports, the thrust it generates is somewhat inefficient compared to standard jet propulsion. The important thing is that the EM drive doesn't need fuel to function, which means an EM drive vehicle design wouldn't be weighed down by fuel tanks and so would require less energy/material to launch and accelerate in a vacuum.

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/09/14 22:30

@amazingdude
We send the materials to build a launch pad, rocket parts, etc. so that we can launch multiple rockets without having to worry about getting them there. By this time we should be able to deliver cargo to the moon relatively easily. I think we could probably do it without a permanent colony.

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9132					#Nl3t12Mz 2017/09/14 23:39

How much is an EM Drive? LoL.

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4783937279458294		#bS1191YD 2017/09/15 06:02

@9132
Shuffles through dusty files, "Let's see..., Ah! Would you like your EM drive new or used? If you buy two it comes with free two day shipping"

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/15 08:20

@TK
I was thinking thrust onto a turbine that collects energy, if it can get past the static friction. Get a sh,itload of these together and we'd have a steady source of power.

@Draco
That seems feasible.

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/09/15 09:21

Remember, there's no such thing as "free energy".

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/15 09:43

@skyk
Remember that magnet engine a few months ago? There must be SOMETHING that can provide free energy.

I never posted the great debate backup here, so I'll do so. I'll probably post it once a week, the idea is that the debate would be less lkely to be lost entirely if the backups contain other backups.
https://pastebin.com/0gwFRWk9

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/15 10:52

@amazingdude
EM drives require a source of microwaves to function, and every test done has uses artificial microwaves from electricity and a portion of that function was naturally wasted as heat like every other reaction; so getting energy out of this is like piping some of the water from a watercooler to use as coolant, and then pouring the part that didn't evaporate back into the top of the cooler and claiming it creates water. It would only "generate" power if that microwave source was natural but there's probably better uses for natural microwaves than a windmill in space. (Spacemill?)

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/09/15 11:43

@amazingdude
For an indefinite amount of time? Probably not, because of the laws of thermodynamics.
But if quantum mechanics can contradict Newton's Third Law, I suppose anything is possible.

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/09/15 23:23

@AD
That magnet thing wouldn't work, and doesn't work. Many people have tried it. If it worked, we'd have been using it to power trains and carriages since the 1800s. There are many youtube videos of supposed magnet-based free energy generators, but these are either demonstrable hoaxes with hidden motors, or just devices no better than a wheel which would slow to a stop under any friction.

The idea of free energy goes against the most basic concepts of entropy. At best, you can just increase the efficiency of energy generation, but some energy will always be lost. If you want to see compelling (but still impossible) ideas for perpetual motion devices, you should look to what actual physicists have designed as thought experiments, like the Brownian Ratchet.

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9132					#Nl3t12Mz 2017/09/15 23:29

Magnets use magnetical energy, so it isn't entirely "free". Using big enough magnets may work, Although you would need them as big as windmills.

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Omega16					#ThE7mUFZ 2017/09/16 02:24

Actually, probably bigger than that in order to get any really noticeable effects.

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/09/16 07:36

And contain it how?

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4783937279458294		#bS1191YD 2017/09/16 09:04

Let's see, the new argument is about perpetual motion? You got to be kidding me! Here's are new EM drive: water hits wheel, wheel turns and and brings it back up, well..., that isn't that just to good to be true. :)

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/16 09:45

@4783937279458294
"EM drive" isn't code or whatever for something that generates energy, it's a potential fuel-less propulsion method for space travel that amazingdude thinks can be harnessed for energy.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/16 11:23

@TK
If you can provide infinite thrust, you can harvest the thrust to generate energy. Attatch it to a windmill or something.
But hey, we have fossil fuels to rely on for the next few centuries, and nuclear after that.

@Skyk
I believe in perpetual motion. Yes, I do know about Newton's laws.

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/09/16 11:56

you can't provide "infinite thrust". Any thrust the EM drive generates requires an input of electrical current, which will always be higher than the amount of current it could generate by harvesting the thrust. That's like plugging a flashlight into a solar panel and trying to get infinite energy by shining the light onto the panel. I absolutely cannot believe we're having this foolish argument again after physicists settled this literally hundreds of years ago.

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Madisonflame			#kdpeI8WM 2017/09/17 09:47

....what's going up in here now?

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/17 11:53

Oh wait, that machine DOES require electric input? I thought it just spontaneously generated microwaves which created thrust.

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hotdogeater1000			#LiLWHMJE 2017/09/17 12:14

A good idea to get energy for that involves hydrogen, pressure, heat, and control mechanisms. We already harnessed the power of fusion for our destructive tendencies. Now we should harness it to produce energy... if we can.

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4783937279458294		#bS1191YD 2017/09/17 12:55

@Torture King
I have a better idea, lets have huge photon sails instead of EM drives.

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/17 13:17

Why not both? Solar sails don't have launching capability, EM drives are largely being hailed as the replacement for rockets.

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/09/18 00:00

I've always wondered if there was a way to harness forces that pretty much existed no matter what, like a gravity-powered engine or something. We can apparently obtain solar energy, but it's not something to rely on.

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4783937279458294		#bS1191YD 2017/09/18 01:12

@Torture King
Well..., we should not forget to add a Warp drive. ;)

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/09/18 01:17

@dracobot
Forces that act as a vector in both directions (gravity, tension, magnetism) are typically not feasible as sources of energy, because they take just as much energy to set up as they can maximally generate by reaching equilibrium, some of which is then lost when converting to electricity. If you wanted to harvest gravity, you'd need a source of high potential energy, like catching meteorites as they fall or something, which seems a lot less reliable than solar energy.

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/18 05:33

AFAIK warp drives don't exist yet, the background science for folding space mechanically doesn't exist yet. Meanwhile, NASA just got done with the first round of tests for the EM drive and couldn't prove that it doesn't function as advertised- even if they're not quite sure how. (My bet is on the microwaves becoming particles at some point when they're not observed within the cone, thus having the mass to cause impact force and push the drive forward but becoming massless waves again before leaving and appearing to violate Newton's Second Law- or some other quantum mechanics bullshittery like that, every science even approaching that stuff sounds like handwaving for magic.)

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/18 13:21

Why dont we give NASA more funding so we can develop a warp drive, EM drive, antimatter energy, etc.? For eveyr $1 we drop into NASA, our GDP gains $10 from technologies developed by NASA. The moon landing helped get us personal computers for example.

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/09/18 14:35

Is there any possible way that we know of that bends space other than adding and taking away mass?

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9132					#Nl3t12Mz 2017/09/18 23:14

@Dracobot
There is wormholes, but they tear ships apart. They also allow time travel!

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/09/18 23:17

We still don't know for sure that wormholes can allow for time travel, but it'd be pretty cool if that works someday. I actually have my own theories about time travel which could be a bit more feasible if the wormhole thing doesn't work out, but it would have its own restrictions.

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9132 					#bmL0OYbZ 2017/09/19 01:46

@skyk
It worked, but we can't control where we go or when we go. Also, if you watched the movie about wormholes, you may find specific clues about how they work. And Dracobot, thats how a wormhole works. It is a bend in space that you can travel through.

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/19 06:50

I was under the impression that wormholes are just an explanation for black holes' supposedly infinite mass, when exactly did we find one outside of science fiction?

I do remember CERN doing what ended up being a time-travel experiment, it involved a photon that they accelerated so fast in a circle that it randomly deflected off course. The best hypothesis at the time was that the photon was interfering with it's own past trajectory.

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/09/19 07:42

@9132
Yes, I know about wormholes and understand how they work. But don't they involve mass in some way, like with black holes?

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9132					#Nl3t12Mz 2017/09/20 00:13

@Dracobot
Imagine a non-opened soda can. Lets say the soda can is a part of space. Now, if you see, if you crumble the pressurized soda can, it's smaller, but pressurized. And I do believe there is some mass in the wormhole that is kind of the more pressurized soda can.

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/09/21 10:57

@9132
Possibly, but the only thing density affects in this circumstance is how spread out the force of gravity is.

================================================== {Topic shift 4}

hotdogeater1000			#LiLWHMJE 2017/09/23 06:47

I am disappointed that there are still people that seriously believe the earth is flat.

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4783937279458294		#bS1191YD 2017/09/23 08:56

@hotdogeater1000
Duh..., did you think it was a cube.

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/09/23 09:36

In Poincaré space, the world is flat.

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/23 11:58

https://i.imgur.com/OUuX5Ys.jpg

{If the world were flat, cats would have pushed everything off it by now}

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/23 12:21

Honestly most of the flat earthers are either trolls or mentally insane. Theres no way they can be serious.

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/09/23 23:07

how do you know it's not flat?

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9132					#Nl3t12Mz 2017/09/24 00:50

@Minisheme
You are a fucking retard.

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0b1111					#KIiGP8j5 2017/09/24 02:00

@Minisheme
->Gravity going down instead of some point on Earth
->While somewhere is day, somewhere else is night
->Most flatearther use fake fact that doesn't make any sense.

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/09/24 02:04

so? we don't even know how gravitons work. why would it not be possible for one area to be day and one area night on a flat earth? you can't disprove flat earth if left to your own devices.

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9132					#Nl3t12Mz 2017/09/24 03:25

Again, your retarded.

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Tyne and wear			#5GBDuOyX 2017/09/24 03:58

For a second I thought there was a genuine flat-earther in the comments section and was readying my arguments and statistics.

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hotdogeater1000			#LiLWHMJE 2017/09/24 06:18

Did you know that the bolivian salt flats are actually so flat that you can (barely) see the roundness of the earth. If you took a well done picture, the middle and the left section would be a pixel or two away vertically

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/09/24 13:18

"your retarded" nice one mate

@tyne and wear
the merit of flat-earther stuff is that almost no one actually has a leg to stand on against them.

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/09/24 13:24

@9132
You can't call someone stupid without providing a counter argument. That's basically what happened to Copernicus and anyone prior to the 20th century who believed in germs. (0b1111, close enough.)

For all we know, the Earth could be flat. It could even be basin-shaped and everything that we've seen that provides evidence to a spherical Earth could be explained by other things such as our perception of the universe being completely incorrect. I was joking about the Poincaré space earlier, but as an example, the Earth could very well not be a sphere if space was non-Euclidean, which I believe it is even though the idea entirely contradicts how we perceive the universe.

@hotdogeater1000
You mean Bonneville Salt Flats?

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0b1111					#KIiGP8j5 2017/09/24 14:17

@Minsheme
->Gravty works towards to object.
->If Earth would be flat sun will be on the up side of earth or down side of earth. Will not be able to be both.

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/09/24 14:31

"works towards to object"? we don't know how gravitons transmit the force of gravity at a quantum level.
https://i.imgur.com/eyuUVdc.gif

{So it happens that people believing in a flat Earth have an explanation for night and day occuring at the same time in different places on Earth.

According to some, the Sun doesn't shine in every direction, but is rather a kind of spot light hovering above us, and rotating around the North pole.. right. Like it's still in the sky at any time, but when you're not below it, then it's night.

Well I gave it a fair thought, because it would be unscientific not to. They have ad hoc explanations for a lot of objections you could make, that is they can refute points taken individually. The forums of Flat Earth Society is a treasure box of those ideas.

But it all boils down to this : none of them do any maths. There's never been in history a model of a flat Earth with equations that can account for movements in the sky, predict the position of planets, etc.. like the Round Earth supporters do.

For example in this diagram, what would be the radius of the Sun's rotation ? What would be the size of the area it can illuminate ? Those nice ideas have never been backed up with any verifiable numeric data.

So I guess I'll let myself brainwashed by NASA a while longer, as long as the mainstream model provides predictable events..}

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0b1111					#KIiGP8j5 2017/09/24 16:11

->we don't know what forces gravity at quantum level, but know at regular what forces gravity at regular level /*mass*/.
->The sun's light travel at almost 299,792,458 metres per second. That way light could not just stom at some point, sun and moon will both be always visible and night would not ever exist.

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/09/24 21:36

that diagram does not show height of the sun or moon

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/09/24 22:00

Quantum mechanics are rather irrelevant when you're talking about that much mass. There's a reason nobody noticed them until long after neutron microscopes were invented.

Also, what's underneath the Earth then? The rotting corpse of a primordial giant? An endless tower of tortoises? Half-Life 3?

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danstroyer				#eGPLCtF1 2017/09/24 22:17

y r we talking about gravity?

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/09/24 22:45

quantum physics doesn't always mean "crazy ambiguous magic that allows anything to happen". every type of force has a corresponding particle that transmits that force, we don't know how this works with gravity/gravitons.

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/09/25 00:11

And besides, the sun may be above us, but *appear* to be going past the horizon at sunset. Space may be curved in the form of a dome above us, causing light to bend back and miss us. If we traveled in a straight line to a seemingly random point in space at night, we might eventually reach an area near the sun because of the way space is bent (not to the sun because if that were the case, light would reach us, but I'm assuming nothing else isn't bending the light as well).

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hotdogeater1000			#LiLWHMJE 2017/09/25 07:57

@AD {Dracobot}
Nope, bolivian salt flats, or as they know it, Salar de Uyuni.

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0b1111					#KIiGP8j5 2017/09/25 14:57

@Minsheme
->quantum physics doesn't always mean "crazy ambiguous magic that allows anything to happen",but means "crazy theory that explains the world in lots of formulas"
->We still know that mass forces gravity, and scientists know more than we.
->The sun's light travel at almost 299,792,458 metres per second. That way light could not just stop at some point, sun and moon will both be always visible and night would not ever exist TO ANY FINITE HEIGHT. More height will mean that we will wait more to light comes to Earth, but not that whole planet will not be lighted up.

explanation "TO ANY FINITE HEIGHT"
->As absolute impossiblillity to height be infinie, as our universe is finite /*Otherwise it couldn't grow and extend*/ logically height would be finite.

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9132					#YzWLU8MF 2017/09/26 00:50

@Dracobot
How would the earth sustain water if it was flat? Also, the earth would have two sides. Also, water would just run off.

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herecomesmichael		#68cDLTHg 2017/09/26 01:50

to everyone talking about a flat earth: it's super easy to disprove. if you went to the south pole (which would be the ""edge"" of the earth) and moved around, you would fly around the edge like crazy. also, how would you be able to walk /through/ the south pole? that would have to be some sort of Portal-type science because you would just fall off the edge!

also what would be on the other side of the earth??? (i know @TK already said this but i want to emphasize it) really! would it be like, hel? or would it be some alternate world exactly like ours??????

all in all, flat-earthers honestly don't know what they're talking about. i rest my case.

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Vidkunssonn				#6gkHelVa 2017/09/26 07:31

Jesus Christ, you guys are actually discussing this?
Ahhh, I guess I have to participate..

https://pastebin.com/q5GREHby {https://pastebin.com/17yzXVHV}

Despite the bizzarre idea, there actually is some pretty logical reasoning behind believing the earth flat (SOME). I myself do believe that the earth is a spherical shape.

The first thing we need to discuss is how to calculate the curvature of the earth.
"Using the theorem of Pythagoras a2 = 39632 + 12 = 15705370 and thus a = 3963.000126 miles. Thus your position is 3963.000126 - 3963 = 0.000126 miles above the surface of the earth. 0.000126 miles = 1252800.000126 = 7.98 inches. Hence the earth's surface curves approximately 8 inches in one mile."
So, the earth curves 8" per mile squared. Chart for reference: http://www.smokescreendesign.com/images/earth-curve-calcuation.jpg

Let's take a look at some examples of really tall structures that are really far away that can be seen.

This is a picture of the Chicago Skyline taken from across the lake: http://i.imgur.com/2sbFc9N.jpg
The distance between from where the picture was taken and the base of the Willis Tower (the really tall one) itself is a little more than 50 miles.
To calculate exactly how much of the building should be covered by the earth itself, we use the formula above:

    8" * (50^2) = 20000" = 1666+(2/3)'

The height of the building itself is about 1400', so by logic, the earth would cover it up entirely, right?

False, because of my little friend Light Refraction (this is where the logical reason supporting flat-earth stops):
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_refraction

In short, light will travel in a straight line for a certain distance before it starts to droop downward due to gravity, temperature, air pressure, and a few other things, so the light "droops" around the curvature of the earth so we can see things further away. This bit of science causes distortions in the light, which is why the buildings in the picture are kinda blurry. There's some MAJOR distortion in this picture:
    http://www.asterism.org/images/atmo07.jpg

because the light image is going through a LOT more atphosphere than the light coming from the buildings in the other picture, so it's being affected by gravity, air particles, etc. much more, creating a more distorted image. This evidence has been supported many times by this experiment:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedford_Level_experiment

However, it has been used to support both round-earth and flat-earth, so take it as you will.

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4783937279458294		#bS1191YD 2017/09/26 09:25

Well..., it's a very common principal that the earth is a cube.

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U HAVE 2 VOTE!!!		#oivMsWIR 2017/09/26 10:10

What the #@#$@$@#$@#@$@#$#@$@ are you commenting about the Powder Game 2 comment board is not for posting whatever you want

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OwenDaPanda				#VYQpyVtv 2017/09/26 11:07

What word is that long uh2v?
Also, no one care about the fact that it is RECOMMENDED that you should post about pg2 stuff

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/09/26 12:49

lol, 0b111, the reason I mentioned height is that the moon would block the sun's light over part of the earth. they rotate and you get night and day.

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/09/26 12:52

@herecomesmichael
no one can attest to travelling to where the "edges" would be and all the way around (i.e. south pole or north pole like you said, or middle of the pacific, wherever it may be)

also, there are many anomalies of travel when people are in landscapes such as oceans or tundra -- commonly, they end up travelling in a circle if they don't know where they're going, even if they're trying to go in a straight line.

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/09/26 13:01

https://pastebin.com/7JeUNi4x

The curvature of space plays a huge part in this theory, so you'll hear it a lot in this post. If you ever doubt me in any of it, take a topology class.

@0b1111
The universe is (probably) a 4-sphere; infinite height may be perfectly possible.

@9132
What herecomesmichael said. You would fly around the edge like crazy because that is how space is bent. If you went there, it would all appear connected like normal because of that, and since it appears normal from a Euclidean viewpoint nothing can ever "fall off of" the Earth (the molecules are resting on each other).

The Earth doesn't have two sides from this theory (I guess it technically does, but the underside is dome-shaped). It's the way space is bent: straight lines going through the Earth appear to arc and come out (on the same side) a distance from the input exactly equal to the radius (to visualize this, imagine a line coming into a point that represents the South Pole and going out at the North Pole, and you can move this line however you want, as long as it passes over the North Pole at some point). Many models are possible, but this is one of the easiest to understand.

@herecomesmichael
Not quite. There is a vertical *geometric line* (a space of literally 0 width) at the South Pole in the theory. It is impossible for anything to occupy that space, so nothing would escape the space that way.

"Off of the edge of Earth" is actually (due to the way space is curved) directly above the South Pole. Remember that dome-above-the-Earth model I mentioned earlier? It extends down "around" the sides of the Earth.

@4783937279458294
If gravity and space were cubic to compensate, this could be true.

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/09/26 13:16

I just realized: is UH2V really stixx44 who came back more sane?

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/09/26 14:34

So the earth is essentially a 4d flat plane? Perhaps we're living on the 3d surface of a 4d shape. This shit is beyond me.

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0b1111					#KIiGP8j5 2017/09/26 14:35

@Minsheme
when moon block sun's light it is not night but solar eclipse. Also sun/moon would not be on Earth`s horizon. also Earth can block sun's light to moon and that is why moon is sometimes all blank.

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/09/26 22:25

The Earth's "horizon" is a small circle around your location. And a lunar eclipse is possible when the sun is above one side while the moon is above the other, equidistant from the equator (the concentric circle halfway between the North and South Poles) on the other side of it.

Though the moon isn't invisible during a total lunar eclipse. It takes on a reddish hue.

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what					#qIxfI5th 2017/09/27 01:57

cmon dudes, lets set aside our differences and enjoy the beauty that is Powder Game™

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/09/27 05:26

okay I am out of arguments for flat earth good chat brothas

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/09/27 07:57

Yeah, I wasn't sure where you were going with the eclipse=nighttime argument.

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Vidkunssonn				#6gkHelVa 2017/09/27 08:22

@Dracobot
http://i.xomf.com/qfysf.png

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COMMENT BOT				#h3LXayCp 2017/09/27 11:57

i want to make any possible for the earth then the flat earth good chat brothas.

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/09/27 13:19

@Vidkunssonn
See comment 2017/09/25 00:11.

{And besides, the sun may be above us, but *appear* to be going past the horizon at sunset. Space may be curved in the form of a dome above us, causing light to bend back and miss us. If we traveled in a straight line to a seemingly random point in space at night, we might eventually reach an area near the sun because of the way space is bent (not to the sun because if that were the case, light would reach us, but I'm assuming nothing else isn't bending the light as well).}

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/09/27 13:39

@dracobot
I never really implied that an eclipse would cause night, it was bad wording maybe. the sun and moon would have to be at very different heights if the earth was literally a flat plain like people assume is the only option.

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Vidkunssonn				#6gkHelVa 2017/09/27 20:01

http://i.xomf.com/czmgc.png

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/09/28 09:58

@Vidkunssonn
Bending the wrong way. Just because light extends in all directions doesn't mean any directions lead to the observer.

Wait, I take that back. That is the correct way space would be bent. But my second point still stands.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/10/02 12:45

https://pastebin.com/cGxGHpG8
Sorry im a bit late, I had surgery recently. Thats just another debate archive btw

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/10/03 15:07

so it seems the debate is actually dead, for real this time.
Twas a fun time.

================================================== {Topic shift 5}

amazingdude						  2017/10/05 02:20

Lets talk about date formats. ISO8601 best format (YYYY-MM-DD)

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nobody					#nf4Fsixs 2017/10/05 12:27

please don't start another debate, I beg of you.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/10/05 14:00

We're trying to break the record of 8 years.
Technically only 4 because the middle of the debate went missing and we only have the last 4 years and the first few months. We cannot prove that they arent 2 seperate debates. While I do believe TK's statement of 8 years, its one of those things that you just cant prove. (Which is why I'm backing up this debate!)

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9132					#Nl3t12Mz 2017/10/05 23:45

@amazingdude
Date Formats? END ME

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/10/06 01:15

I think kyoto had another one, but he doesn't stick around very much since shipping out to Afghanistan for me to politely ask about it.

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hotdogeater1000			#LiLWHMJE 2017/10/06 08:45

Although its not entirely clear, there is actually some sense in MM/DD/YYYY. Month can have a max number of 12 (if you are using the standard 12 month calendar). Day can have a max value of 31. Year can have up to infinity, although it will never get up to infinity as a result of the inevitable heat death of the universe in which nothing will ever change, again, and the universe will be a dark place, a very dark place with some particles here and there. Although, DD/MM/YYYY or YYYY/MM/DD kinda make more sense.

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/10/06 09:41

By that logic, YY/MM/DD/YY is the superior format because the first two digits of the year will likely only go up to 30 or so before we restart the calendar in commemoration of a unified world government or something while the last two go up to 99.

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U HAVE 2 VOTE!!!		#oivMsWIR 2017/10/06 10:19

Thanks for 1K votes total and WHY ARE YOU COMMENTING ABOUT DATE FORMATS???

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/10/06 11:54

Why are you not?

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U HAVE 2 VOTE!!!		#oivMsWIR 2017/10/06 12:16

BECAUSE THAT'S NOT POWDER GAME 2 OR DAN-BALL RELATED.

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/10/06 12:20

@hotdogeater1000
I feel like you're trying to tell us something most people would feel bad about to get the same reaction from us and make you look cooler by appearing to us as if you don't care about this fact and/or know about it even though the mere attempt of such an action and said action's revelation by me to the other inhabitants of the Comment Boards only make you appear rather less cool in our eyes but we choose not to respond about it or care because there is no point to address such a trivial error from someone so you take away from the situation the misconception that we were affected by your comment in a way that made us feel inferior to you which make you feel superior to them even though apparently unbeknownst to you we are fully aware of the fact that you just presented and the meaning behind it and your feelings of superiority are thus rendered meaningless so everyone and the circumstances as a whole would have benefited more had you not posted that addendum to your participation in the current discussion.

WELL IT WORKED!!! :'(

Also, I think it's because it reflects the typical formal way of writing the date: Month D, Year.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/10/06 12:48

https://pastebin.com/R4p17hSS

Todays date in DD-MM-YYYY: 06-10-2017
Todays date in MM-DD-YYYY: 10-06-2017
Todays date in YYYY-MM-DD: 2017-10-06

@TK

I guess you can try to google it and maybe find the pastebin. Besides, he may not even have it anymore.

@hotdogeater

While I dont like MM-DD-YYYY, I absolutely HATE DD-MM-YYYY. It makes no sense written out in numerical form. Sure, smallest to biggest, right? Well, not really. Take todays date: 2017-10-06. If it was REALLY smallest to biggest, it would be 60-01-7102, which makes zero sense. You can't arrange numbers (which are written in descending order) in ascending order. It just doesnt make sense from a mathematical perspective.

Imagine it this way: Each chunk of the date is a number, written in descending order. When you go from the 6 to the 1, you are going from the 1 day digit (6) to the 10 month digit (1). Again, going from the 1 month digit (0) to the 1000 year digit (2). This is 2 interruptions. It's not just a smooth flow upwards, as you arent going to the next significant digit: You are skipping around.

"Well, is MM-DD-YYYY any better?" Well, yeah! It's got only one break (10 days digit (6) to the 1000 year digit (2). It conveniently divides the date in half into two descending streams. The time of the year, and the year itself. While not as good as YYYY-MM-DD, it sure as hell is better than DD-MM-YYYY.

"But the day is the most important part!" Well, not really. "The sixth". Sixth of what? October 2017? January 1472? The day tells you NOTHING about when something happened. Neither does having the month first, but its less shitty. The year provides when an event happened in history. "But its not useful for common use!" Why do we need two seperate formats for common and professional use? After all, we don't need to keep saying "twenty" in front of the year, because that wont change for 83 years. Let's say 1720 instead!

The previous 2 paragraphs probably didnt make sense to anyone, but its how I think. This shitty MSpaint should help a bit: https://i.imgur.com/dVWdSMr.png

Another reason is for consistency. TK's comment wasnt written on 41:09. 1 million is not 000,000,1. Today shouldnt be 06-10-2017. Write it like we write everything else involving numbers, 2017-10-06. Don't get me started on sorting.

This always gets misinterpreted as defending MM-DD-YYYY. I'm not defending this outdated (heh) date format. It's almost as bad as DD-MM-YYYY. Both formats need to be replaced with the international date standard.

Another analogy would be dividing the year up. YYYY-MM-DD is 2017, MM-DD-YYYY is 1720, and DD-MM-YYYY is 7120. Or, HGFE-DC-BA, BA-DC-HGFE, vs DC-BA-HGFE.I hope you can see why I feel this way. I'm sorry if it feels ranty, but I have very strong feelings on this.

https://i.imgur.com/At3sqEo.png
https://i.imgur.com/s4D0Z9N.png
https://i.imgur.com/iSFyZDd.png

@Uh2v
What else can we talk about?

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U HAVE 2 VOTE!!!		#oivMsWIR 2017/10/06 14:11

if you can't think of anything to talk about other than random stuff, then just don't post at all. :/

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/10/06 22:37

@amazingdude
What? I don't think he meant *literally* write it backwards.

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/10/06 22:48

@UH2V
If the admins didn't like polite off-topic discussion in the comment boards they would have cracked down on it years ago. You're not the boss of anyone here, and the more you harp on about this the less anyone is going to value your opinions on other subjects.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/10/09 08:03

@Uh2v
I can post whatever I want. Everyone here is alright with it. This game is pretty much dead. There's nothing to talk about thats not asking for votes.

@Dracobot
I was providing evidence that DD-MM-YYYY isnt truly ascending order.

================================================== {Topic shift 6}

Nepaterut				#Z5lByTDx 2017/10/09 09:29

The earth is flat, and climate change is not real. NASA's been lying to yo guys.

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Jeffery					#eBoA4gmv 2017/10/09 12:26

Nepaterut is wrong. The earth is a cube. Why are most world maps rectangular? They are stretching the cubic earth to fit on a wall, which is also why the poles are squished on maps: The top face of a cube must be squished in order to fit on a wall.

Also, we can clearly tell because objects disappear beyond the horizon. If the earth was spherical or flat, they wouldnt disappear after a certain distance. What would it disappear behind?

A cubic earth is the only reasonable explanation to many natural events, like time zones, seasons etc

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/10/09 14:24

@amazingdude
An ordering of numbers is concerned with a set of numbers, not the digits themselves.

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/10/09 18:24

There's more than 4 time zones though, for 24* timezones you'd need at least a prismic icositetragon. (totally googled that word, btw)

*Physical timezones anyway, if you want a shape to have natural formations accounting for otherwise political phenomena like China running on it's own time then the geometry would get a bit complicated than a wannabe cylinder.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/10/10 01:19

@Nepaterut
Been there, done that. Read the last 4 month of the debate.

@Jeffery
Are you fucking retarded? Even if the earth was a cube, gravity would collapse it back into a sphere. Everything you just said can be explained by a spherical earth. At least its more plausible than flat earth.

@Draco
For some reason to me, it just seems wrong to order sets of numbers, which are descending, in ascending order. A date is made up of 3 sets of numbers. Each set itself is in descending order. You can order the sets any way you want, but it makes the most sense to order the whole date in descending order, because the parts of it are.

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βBETA					#nf4Fsixs 2017/10/10 04:34

Why! HP, did you have to make cheesy injection molded screw holds that bust after seven years, I've had to hold up the screen with my hands due to the fact that the joints I reinforced with metal have snapped because of these cheesy injection molded screw holds. Microsoft, why in the world have you kept on asking me to "upgrade" my windows 7 to windows 10 and keep on doing it every 5 seconds of the living existence of me and this computer, now due to absence of screw holds I've had to hold up my computer screen with my right hand and type with my left, seriously just why.

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Σsigma					#dGUQeyap 2017/10/10 07:58

@amazingdude
Assuming gravity is a spherical force.

Well, considering base-10 is just a representation of quantities, that should never be the case.

@βBETA
The same thing happened to my computer (also 7-years old, coincidentally), only Microsoft eventually made it automatically update with the only way to stop it being an obscure window that opened behind my existing windows.

And by that I mean it updated and now I have Windows 10. But don't give up hope! Keep fighting! Be the one that wins against Microsoft!

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Vidkunssonn				#6gkHelVa 2017/10/10 08:07

@Jeffery
>Why are most world maps rectangular?
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/351448593690918924/367085622961242133/20171009_180642.jpg

{Spider/cut up world map}

I showed that pic to someone on a Discord guild and they responded "The earth is a spider with Down's syndrome"

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Jeffery					#cpWZHvVg 2017/10/10 11:30

There are only 4 time zones, the government is lying to you.

Gravity works in cubes. Objects are naturally drawn together as cubes. I specifically said that you cannot explain this shart with a spherical earth. Also, wouldnt we just slide off the spherical earth and fall into space? Even if we dont fall into space, we wouldnt be able to stand because it would be round.

Nice spherical earth propaganda, vidkunson

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/10/10 14:39

https://pastebin.com/mLRScjgw

@Beta
Fuck that shit. Fuck forced updates in general.

@Esigma, Jeffery
Gravity is spherical. Every point on the surface of a sphere is equidistant to the center, compared to a cube, where the corners are further from the center than the middle of the faces. The matter on the corners would eventually be drawn to the faces because of this difference in distance, resulting in the object becoming more and more spherical over time.

The whole idea of gravity working in cubes is probably the dumbest thing ive heard. At least manmade global warming makes SOME sense (yet its still wrong). Gravity keeps you on the spherical earth.

Honestly I dont know how this dude can be serious.

@Vidkunssonn
I hate spider maps like those. They just..... no.

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hotdogeater1000			#LiLWHMJE 2017/10/11 10:36

Well, California is on fire.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/10/11 11:44

@Hotdogeater
https://i.imgur.com/ulP90gA.jpg
More pics upon request

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/10/12 04:06

@amazingdude
got any that contain flames?

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βBETA					#nf4Fsixs 2017/10/12 06:50

In the part of California i'm in you can't see 3 feet in front you because of the smoke that has seemingly engulfed the entirety of the Bay Area.
inside it's no problem and i'm quite far from the actual fire so it was more of a exaggeration, but still you can smell it.

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dude					#YaahGxaG 2017/10/12 12:40

looks like we had the wrong redit account for AD.
u/Rebel_Scum83 seems to be the real one, as he just posted a meme about PG in r/teenagers

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Jeffery					#405emkSl 2017/10/13 11:58

Stop lying to people. Earth is a cube.

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βBETA					#nf4Fsixs 2017/10/13 12:28

@Jeffery
dude...

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Jeffery					#ZmjIYd7P 2017/10/13 13:55

Umm, because it IS a cube? Look at world maps. Do you see a circle? NO, its a rectngle, which you get from unwrapping a cube, dumbas!

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0b1111					#KIiGP8j5 2017/10/13 14:10

@Jeffery
The world maps are rectangle to be easy to print them. There are also globes that show how Earth really looks like.

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/10/14 04:34

Is everyone missing the obvious problem that you don't get rectangles by unwrapping cubes?

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hotdogeater1000			#LiLWHMJE 2017/10/14 07:23

Yeah when you unwrap cubes, you get a cross. Also, theres quite a few maps that are actually ovals.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/10/14 07:38

@Skyk
I think hes doing this https://i.imgur.com/mcrCf8S.png

Even if that was true, there would be triangular distortions on the poles.
How does a cubic earth explain oval maps?

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MidnightMonster			#VfijhzSI 2017/10/14 07:58

I just want to know, why is there always arguing over what shape the Earth is?

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Jeffery					#L5YsAJw6 2017/10/14 15:40

@Amazing
thats pretty much what I was trying to explain.
oval maps are a result of uneven spreading of the top and bottom faces across the whole rectangular map, making it appear ovular.

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0b1111					#KIiGP8j5 2017/10/14 18:44

@Jeffery
->So if Earth is cube, why globes are balls?
->Why all planets are balls or whatever round and Earth is cube?

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/10/15 04:14

I explained earlier how a cubic planet will eventually collapse into an oblate spheroid. Even if one did exist, it wouldnt remain cubic for long due to asteroids and space weathering.

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Jeffery					#EddG4j3y 2017/10/15 17:04

look i dont care if gravity makes things spherical or if world maps dont make sense, but the earth is a cube. its just that. i flew my drone into space and recorded video of the cubic earth

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0b1111					#KIiGP8j5 2017/10/15 20:00

@Jeffery
->You flied your drone in space. How you amplified signal long enought to it lasts up to space?

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/10/16 06:56

So jeffery you basically deny all the science and just reply with "The earth is a cube. It just is." He's gotta be trolling.

================================================== {Topic shift 7}

卐卐14ϟϟ88卐卐				#Q8zWCcgu 2017/10/17 15:00

Sieg Heil! Aryan master race! Heil hitler!

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The_Leviathan			#dy5l8n9X 2017/10/17 21:27

uh...

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/10/18 07:26

lets talk about climate change again!

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Vidkunssonn				#6gkHelVa 2017/10/18 11:04

＠卐卐14ϟϟ88卐卐
Get a life you piece of shit

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U HAVE 2 VOTE!!!		#oivMsWIR 2017/10/18 12:14

@Vidkunssonn
STOP POSTING SWEAR WORDS LIKE SHIT AND STUFF

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卐卐14ϟϟ88卐卐				#haSNizPU 2017/10/18 14:50

White Power! The white man will once again return to superiority over his brown minions! Sieg Heil!

End white genocide. Stop mass migration into white countries. "Diversity" is code word for anti white. DO NOT LET THE SUPERIOR ARYAN MASTER RACE GO EXTINCT!!!

discord.gg/cpZ7VFx {???????????}

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The_Leviathan			#dy5l8n9X 2017/10/18 22:48

@ 卐卐14ϟϟ88卐卐 you wanna have a bad time? Cause if take ONE step forward, you are REALLY NOT GONNA like what happens next!

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Tyne and wear			#5GBDuOyX 2017/10/19 02:26

@卐卐14ϟϟ88卐卐
Lol yur race is fucked

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/10/19 06:04


I think you're confused. You're thinking that these races are the same:
1. White people.
2. White people who genuinely believe that race is a measurement of superiority.

Pop quiz: Which of these two is actually dying out? (Hint: it's 2.)

By the way, you sound like such an idiot when you say something like "'Diversity' is code word for anti white." At least troll with a little bit of effort; then it will be somewhat realistic.

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danstroyer				#4PtlYql6 2017/10/19 07:08

. . . . . ummm . . . .

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/10/19 07:23

About white supremacy: https://pastebin.com/3jBAQH6M

@Draco
Group 2 is growing extremely quickly. If the left keep pushing as hard as they are, "white supremacy" will only get bigger. It's flourishing every day. However, what constitutes things now deemed "white supremacy", who knows. Whites are more suited to exist in western civilisation, other races have done nothing but obstruct it. Doesn't mean I have anything against non-whites. If Eastern Asia were put in the hands of whites, it would be a sh.itshow.

I believe this while simultaneously thinking that whites are a suicidally ingenuous race who are bringing about their own downfall. Hopefully, there will be an antifragile process from migration crises which will fix that, instead of two sides inching towards extremes then being pitted against each other.

Notice how one of the first responses to nazism is "lol ur race is f.ucked XD". Great stuff. Enjoy the race war.

Here's an appeal to nationalism that anyone can understand. If you aren't familiar with a prisoner's dilemma, look that up. Now, let's call the GTO (game theory optimal) route the selfish route. The "selfless" routes in life, i.e. the things advertised as "compassionate", "moral" e.g. America is supposed to help Puerto Rico for some arbitrary reason (It's geographically convenient or something, idk). For one, this not only relies on human nature being cooperative/loving, it relies on the state ensuring that "good" human nature - something they get to define. If you trust in that you are basically screaming to me how your government loves you and you would put your life in their hands. Second, every time you or your country collectively decide to bend over to help someone else (like Puerto Rico), EVERY OTHER ENTITY who decided not to bend over as well BY CHOICE (the GTO decision) has gotten a step closer to an upper hand on you.

Human nature is selfish. View people like a macroorganism. Everything that can be taken to get ahead will be. If some superpowerful continent emerged out of nowhere and could take us all on for a net benefit, assume that it would, or you're praying for benevolent leaders to have your interest in mind.

What was the only way that humans have ever overcame this? MAD - Mutually Assured Destruction. Being at each other's throats is all human macroorganisms understand.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/10/19 07:50

https://pastebin.com/WGjWCRSs

I wont be surprised if the KKK or some other neonazi group rises in the next few years. Hell, they're probably organizing right not on the deep web. Normal white people are getting tired of being labeled as the villain by the alt left. My class was CHEERING when my professor mentioned white people will be a minority by 2042. As a white man, I am disgusted by this. It's not that I hate diversity, it's that they were happy there will be less white people in the future. By making white people feel excluded from society, the left is facilitating the growth of white supremacist groups, as white people are now seeking acceptance from a society that rejected and demonized them.

Maybe this is extreme, but I'm from the left coast. Liberal trash everywhere.

I should also state that The alt right cannot exist without the alt left.

@Draco
Group 1 is not changing, group 2 is exploding.

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/10/19 14:02

I only said that to attack his claim. I didn't actually put much thought into it. In retrospect, it was more wishful thinking than anything, but of course now that the white supremacists have a leader--whether he ACTUALLY WANTS to be or not--their group will expand rapidly, and anyone who regularly watches the news will find this obvious.

@amazingdude
What's wrong with being a minority? I mean obviously no one would choose to be subject to discrimination from the majority, but if we assume this doesn't happen (which it probably will, but such is an imperfection of humans in general), being a certain race doesn't matter even from a social point of view unless you feel some sort of unnecessary pride for being a member of the race, but that's the stupid idea that's fueling supremacy.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/10/19 14:09

I wasnt talking about not wanting to be a minority, I was using it as an example of attacks on white people. To me, it seemed like the class wanted that specific group of people to be gone, which is racism. I dont really care whether or not I'm a minority. Maybe I am a bit biased, but nobody should be happy that a group of people is declining in population.

Replace white people with any other group in that scenario and it would be considered racist. Why is it OK to cheer for a declining white population, but not a declining black, latino, or whatever population? I was angry at the fact the class wanted there to be less white people in the US, not the fact that I will be a minority in 30 years.

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/10/19 20:46

I miss uncensoredbot https://pastebin.com/DAwpSDHQ

It's basically an assault on whites and our culture, but I always think it's a bad idea to blame malevolence, so I say whites are responsible for allowing this assault and need to change something. However, the cultural fruits of our lives are pretty much inextricable the white race. People don't seem to realise that culture means "the arts and other manifestations of human intellectual achievement regarded collectively".

Again about human nature, we are still 50% animal and no one wants to see their race die. We also have a drive towards identity, which is part of nature that we see manifested in society, though it's a no-no for white identity. Some of our nature will play out unstoppably, indifferently to our will; it does't mean things caused by that nature are righteous. I.e. every human being is inherently "racist", if we're going to evolve past that then we need to embrace that and deal with it instead of suppressing it and treating it like it's abnormal.

We weren't ready to have a "multicultural" civilisation. Whites are not only threatened by becoming a minority, but because mass immigration has been a farce. The only possible scenario that can come of this is a group of white elites practically enslaving everyone else, or a racially charged war. I'm not saying this because I wish for it, it's just highly likely. 2000 years of blood and tears went into white culture; some youngsters might toss it away but I can guarantee you there is already a white elite ready to guard it just like how Jews manage to have their own ethnostate and a rich, secured culture while being 0.002% of the world.

If the first world does stay multiracial, then we can't treat race like it's relative, we all have our own unique problems and strengths that need to be addressed accordingly.

Life's foundation is arbitrary, it sucks that we're born one race and with one appearance, but our lives are inextricable from this determinism. To not hang yourself right now is to be a determinist, that's what I always say!

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/10/20 00:24

@amazingdude
Yeah, for a while in my life I thought that most white people before this generation were evil or something and that they should be gone or at least their population reduced (I am white), but I later I realized that was completely unrealistic.

There are things that are socially acceptable only when the person is not white, for example saying the N-word (which may be more race-specific) is okay (not in all situations, of course) when the person is black. I am socially not allowed to say this word, but I am perfectly fine with that because I'm already disgusted by its meaning anyway and wouldn't say it even if I got a "free pass" or something. Some things that whites can't do because of their race are fine by me because I've always felt kind of sorry for them since we've been the privileged race for much of human history at their expense. I will feel uncomfortable if someone says something bad about the white race but I will not be insulted. So basically I believe we should let them do what they want while it's still socially acceptable. I mean, I want equality across the board but I would feel more comfortable if we balance the scale first.

@Minsheme
That might be useful.

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/10/20 01:55

About equal playing field vs equality of outcome https://pastebin.com/WMpa3uc6

The scale seems balanced enough to me. We've had all kinds of sandboxes for every race. Typically the scale goes: Jewish average income is highest, then Asian, then white, then Hispanic, then black. Why is it okay to point out that blacks are more athletic but not that they have less capacity to be civilised? I think person-to-person we should evaluate everyone individually, but from governmental point that is not useful.

And it is the same with the male vs female equality arguments - when the playing field is made even MORE equal (see Scandinavia) then the pay difference and choice of fields (i.e. disproportionate males in STEM) becomes even more disparate.

It is the same with what I said about racism, we are all biologically ra.cist and it won't change by trying to suppress it. Same for whatever causes different abilities of different races.

Humans in the northern hemisphere had to build shelter and therefore began things like writing, reading; abstract mental tasks. To survive in hot Southern climates there was no need for this so they did not. This is why Africans never developed a written language despite having plenty of time to do so before EVIL WHITEY came and oppressed them. They are simply less suited for civilisation on average. For some reason, people now are programmed into thinking this means you aren't willing to treat others individually and are condemning a whole race. I don't care if someone I meet is black, they can easily be more civilised and educated than me. It's only necessary to know all this for the sake of governance.

Let's say it is true, our ancestors oppressed blacks and they have an extreme disadvantage. Why should we give whites a handicap just because of this? This is fighting racism with racism. Supposedly we shouldn't care what way someone is born, yet we should have blood on our hands or be handed things because of how we were born, No, the only solution is to level the playing field and let nature take its course.

If this is about equality, why aren't Asians and Jews being handicapped the most? The environment they happened to evolve in was the most beneficial.

It was cruel to blacks to try to make them live in the first world. They didn't ask for it.

We are privileged to be born and exist in the first world, our only duty is to utilise it, otherwise we are squandering what the less privileged would love to have.

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The_Leviathan			#dy5l8n9X 2017/10/20 05:42

What are you guys even talking about... lmao

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/10/20 11:51

https://pastebin.com/mLPUSefR

@Dracobot
Yeah i get what you're saying. Ultimately we should be aiming for equality, but at the same time we shouldnt shame white people for ther history. My race did fucked up things in the past, but that does not justify demonizing white people today.

@Minsheme
We are all racist/sexist/whatever a little bit. It goes back to our tribal era, where protecting the tribe was the most important thing to us. It's one of the key reasons why civilization developed. Hence why everybody who creates a social hierarchy, whether it be based on race or whatever, places themselves at the top.

What you say about equality is absolutely true: To achieve equality, we don't all dip down to the lowest common denominator. We help the less fortunate rise up, which is ultimately what we should be doing. Racism + Racism = more racism, which perpetuates the cycle. To get to a point where race does not matter, we need to reach true equality first.

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/10/20 13:18

@Minsheme
By "balancing the scale", I meant since whites enslaved blacks, we should allow more social freedom for them and restrict it for the whites; otherwise, how are blacks ever going to be considered equal afterward outside of just "waiting it out"? The American government eventually gave a lot of freedom to the Native Americans after forcing them out of their land and treating them like the bad guys for so long.

I tend to bring up this term in conversation a lot, but it is so applicable to society: we all experience ethnocentrism the moment we see or hear of something that is apart from our own cultural norms. And as you said, it's perfectly natural. It's just unfair, so we need to not necessarily limit our reflex but make sure it doesn't impact our decision-making.

In a few days I'll read an excerpt from Leviathan in my Ethics class.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/10/20 13:58

Has anyone went to 1488's Discord server? i dont have discord

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/10/20 22:10

@Dracobot
https://pastebin.com/dPRz4LRV

They are free now though, if you're saying they're at a disadvantage because of the past (and not because there are still remnants of slavery making the playing field uneven) is to say that people have blood on their hands for being white.

It's also extremely difficult to determine who has been oppressed by who and to what extent throughout history, so where do we draw the line in asking for reparations? Every race has been through horrible carnage at the hands of another, despite what Hollywood and whatever other elite mouthpieces would have us believe. I just don't see anyway to make principle of this - I can make principle against it though and it can be summed up with that prisoner's dilemma I mentioned earlier.

Two major reasons why this would not work:

-People value orderliness i.e. they want a playing field with a firm foundation.
-Probably a subset of the above, **if people see someone getting ahead through no merit, they will not work themselves because the incentive has been taken away**. Why be generative and put in effort when the system gave the same outcome to someone who did nothing?

I mentioned Leviathan partly as a joke because of The_Leviathan but that's pretty cool, it's a great foundational book.

@amazingdude
I looked at it, it was really stale, I couldn't believe it existed (because it's so pointless).

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Xed						#iyTcQZN3 2017/10/21 07:45

HOW ARE YOU GUYS STILL ARGUING!!!! ITS BEEN 5 MONTHS SINCE IVE BEEN HERE, AND YOUR STILL ARGUING!!!!! HOW????

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Reztak's				#CYLJDSPm 2017/10/21 11:10

Also, wth is going on in the comments about social issues?

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/10/22 01:04

Since people always like pointing it out, I don't see it as "arguing" in a fighty way, I just like to exchange/contest ideas and see what everyone believes and why.

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U HAVE 2 VOTE!!!		#oivMsWIR 2017/10/22 03:01

No more stupid comments please

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/10/22 05:25

More stupid comments please.

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卐卐14ϟϟ88卐卐				#buqgIq8Z 2017/10/22 16:37

Yall cucks need to realize that there is only one race of human: The white race.

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msg						#dmm2ADo9 2017/10/22 17:57

@#buqgIq8Z {卐卐14ϟϟ88卐卐}
Go away from here.

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Tyne and wear			#5GBDuOyX 2017/10/22 22:21

If the only race is the white race, humans are about to go extinct. You white people have become the architects of your own destruction.

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/10/22 22:55

Tyne why do you hate white people so much? They're not going anywhere. There is a good chance that this faux-threat to the white race is an excuse to create a white ethnostate.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/10/23 02:11

Whi wont this post
https://pastebin.com/sR6M0pVV

@T&W
How exactly do white people cause their own distruction?

@Minsheme
White ethnostates exist already, most of them are in Europe. How diverse is Poland, for example?

T&W lives in china, this was covered in the climate change era of the debate

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/10/23 02:57

Poland will succumb soon enough. If it does not happen perniciously, then they'll be destroyed (they depend on the EU and many citizens support it despite knowing their ideology, the country is not that sovereign). It's not like any country that is now multicultural decided "hey, let's stop being all one race", it was just forced on them. If it came to it, I can see a war happening in 30-50 years time because Poland and any other closed-borders nation in the first world is "racist, nazi", etc.

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Tyne and wear			#5GBDuOyX 2017/10/23 05:17

@Amazingdude
I'm not being serious when I talk about the decline of the West, it's just that the nationalists, far-righters and such make it sound like some kind of doomsday event, and I just play along with that. It is true that European power has declined significantly since the beginning of the last century, and from what I can gather, it seems that some blame Europe's current problems on the so-called 'liberalism' and 'acceptance', even though both the roots and solutions of the problem are more complex. There will always be a difference in what should be done, what can be done and what people want to do.

I would not be surprised if there was another devastating war spanning the entirety of Europe in our lifetime. There hasn't been a single century in the modern era where this hasn't happened. As with the 'white ethnostate' claim, there are roughly two main factors. How desirable a country is to live in and whether people want to move there. Most immigrants (particularly Muslims) choose Western Europe over Eastern Europe because the West generally has better living conditions, better benefits, employment opportunities and social support. Living standards in Eastern Europe are lower and the locals and the governments are less accepting, whether this is due to historical qualms between Muslims, particularly in the Balkans, or some other reason.

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Reztak's				#CYLJDSPm 2017/10/23 08:08

wtf

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/10/23 10:09

https://pastebin.com/j5uyd4iD

@Minsheme

I believe every ethnicity should have a homeland. Poland for Poles, France for French, Korea for Koreans, etc. Obviously there should be some multicultural areas (USA for example), but forced multiculturalism is just as bad as forced monoculturalism. You're absolutely right. Why is multiculutralism being forced on mostly white countries, like UK and Germany? Why arent people flooding into China, or Nigeria? Why is Japan not being called asian supremacist for having very strict immigration laws?

People have the right to be upset that their homeland is being forcefully invaded. When the majority becomes the minority, they lose their sense of national identity, and ethnic tensions will rise, as the majority seeks to reconquer their homeland. Society will divide and nationalist cults will form. This is happening in the USA right now, as the white majority is afraid of becoming a minority (I do believe some recent American white nationalism has to do with this). Who's to say that this won't happen to Europe? If anything, it'll be worse, as the majority is actuallly native to the region, and have been living there for thousands of years, uninterrupted, something not true in the USA. At least they're justified in defending their homeland.

This all goes back to our natural insticnts. Back in the day, people had to protect their tribe in order to survive. Modern ethnic tensions are a result of our natural instincts of protecting our "tribe" (ethnicity in this case) from perceived danger (other ethnic groups), so what we're seeing is people trying to protect their tribe from "foreign invaders" (immigrants). It's harder to be kind to your neighbor if your neighbor is a member of a different tribe than you. Humans just aren't meant to mix. We don't like to admit that people are instinctively protective of their own race, but they are. We're in for one hell of a century.

Name a time in history where 2 different groups of people got along and cooperated for a long amount of time without any violence. Now name a time where 2 different groups of people met and tried to destroy each other and take over.

@T&W

I definitely see a WW3 breaking out in Europe soon. Also a second American civil war.

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/10/23 10:14

I'd say the majority of economic migrants understand what they can reap in the West. They go to wherever can be reaped the most, and do so as much as possible.

Anyway, I am running out of things to comment, so I will let videos of my nice strong country do the talking. (warning kinda loud)
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/921833512117862400/pu/vid/1280x720/DvN-1wfYSw_ixd-i.mp4

here is some dull pseudo-intellectual stuff I didn't feel like posting: https://pastebin.com/9RpzDSAD

I agree with him that whites cause their own destruction. They're susceptible to a lot of "programming", and many other threats that East Asia in particular is immune to. Few whites have transcendent values to ground themselves in. We're going through tons of different cultural shifts which are happening artificially quickly; we've suddenly become in need of religion yet incompatible with all known religion. This is probably why people are turning to political extremes kinda as quasi-religion, this gives them something to ground themselves in, but no one (at least not average person) has access to anything original or authentic, it's always fed to us (or it's a reaction to those things fed to us) e.g. the "SJW" strawman, while they truly exist and have an impact, they are contrived and the reaction/opposition to them is pre-empted.

This is where Poland and the rest of the Visegrad Group may have an advantage, because they are educated properly. They're taught the importance of their history and somewhat heavy reading is expected of the average person. I'm not sure what else separates them, they just appreciate the adversity their country has been through and strive to not repeat it.

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βBETA					#0rob4al8 2017/10/23 10:22

Oh, great..., people keep on saying, "I'm leaving because there is noting more I could possibly do." seriously..., dude.

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U HAVE 2 VOTE!!!		#oivMsWIR 2017/10/23 12:22

@卐卐14ϟϟ88卐卐
GET OUT OF PG2, NOW!!!!

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/10/23 13:57

This would all be solved if people would just stop caring. I wouldn't care if I was the last white person on Earth, as long as I'm treated equally. I understand that it's hard-wired into our minds, but it really doesn't seem like a big deal to me, so I can't understand why people feel so strongly about their "tribes".

And as we become more globalized, I predict that most major wars will be world wars.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/10/24 11:28

@Draco
How would we get people to stop caring about race? Obviously we would need to reach true equality first, both social and political. Some people base their whole identity on their race.

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/10/24 23:32

I honestly don't know. I just don't understand why people think that way about themselves and their culture to begin with.

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U HAVE 2 VOTE!!!		#oivMsWIR 2017/10/25 00:00

Dracobot and amazingdude are posting like randomly and you're talking about races and culture now. Can you guys just ignore the comment section if you can't think of anything to post other than randomness?

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OmegaPirate				#D5Zdki7l 2017/10/25 07:41

@Draco & AD
Break the radical feminists first, then we can discuss race.

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/10/25 08:01

@UH2V
I've asked this before: what topic about PG2 would *you* like to talk about? I am willing to talk about that as long as I have something to add to the discussion. I don't talk about mass deletions of uploads, for example, because I have nothing to add.

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danstroyer				#7h9Zn6zf 2017/10/25 10:13

@UH2V WHAT ARE U EVEN TALKING ABOUT

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U HAVE 2 VOTE!!!		#oivMsWIR 2017/10/25 12:18

How to post anything without having to put the period: Stuff like A is just &#.065; without the period. B is &#.066; etc. You can use a ASCII numbers converter to do this.

That's how you trick the censor bots. It wouldn't be possible the put double asterisks if I didn't do &#.042 over and over again.
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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/10/25 12:41

@Draco
As part of their identity, perhaps? After all, race is included on job apps and stuff like that, so people see it as important. Maybe remove race from the census and all paperwork? Dont think that will work

@UH2V
Fuck off. Nobody wants your minimodding here. We can talk about whatever we want. Believe it or not, PG2 is a dead game, and theres nothing to talk about besides "vote for me". So stop trying to moderate this discussion. If people really cared then they'd just ignore me, and draco's posts. If ha55ii really cared, he'd have nuked this board months ago when the climate debate started. Vidkunssonn believes that ha55ii browses the boards. I dont think he does, but whatever.

Heres the backup, sorry I've been slacking. https://pastebin.com/sGaqwcqx

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/10/25 14:04

@AD
I made the choice quite a while ago to speak to you as little as possible. I personally dislike you strongly, and conversations with you are frustrating. Also, you ought to know that I of all people would disagree with the statement "PG2 is a dead game".

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/10/25 14:26

Well, I think we should keep track of race for demographic reasons. Besides, you can't remove all instances of race in our society and expect it to solve our problems because the physical differences are there and noticeable. The problems would probably reform.

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/10/26 01:46

I'm pretty sure ha55ii does browse the boards but that he just skims over things like this. It would be cool if he said something one day, I wonder if he ever has on either the JP or EN comment boards.

About "topics that shouldn't be discussed here":

Powder Game is a sandbox game. Here is a rule that you can see applies to PG all throughout its history because of that: the climate/quality of the game is a reflection of the playerbase (e.g. the key players might define the entire direction the community is going in). This is why you can/should discuss literally anything, along with the fact that it's a game where you can create literally anything. It would be inappropriate to put any limits on the discussion.
Minecraft is a good example of a sandbox that became worse as the playerbase got worse.

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/10/26 10:52

@Minsheme
He has "appeared" to respond to comments before, but they looked like sheer coincidences to me.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/10/26 11:44

https://pastebin.com/Cmh3t7pK

@Skyk
Why do you hate me? Is it because I do not believe in manmade climate change, or our different stances on painkiller addiction?

@Draco
True. Theres probably no solution to racism, until we all merge into one race in 1000 years, but even then, prejudice will always exist.

@Minsheme
He does announcements, but thats it. In Japanese boards, he does a longer explanation of the website. Also, otascube, another webmaster, is active in the appgames board.

Heres a post of his:
"@UH2V #2
If there is an inappropriate problem of dust please comment to Comments ( http://dan-ball.jp/bbs/support.html ).
ha55ii is also watching comments.
Thank you for your cooperation."

So it looks like UH2V the crybaby is complaining over there too.

Sidenote, Minecraft itself is still a good game, the community is utter fucking garbage.

================================================== {Topic shift 8}

skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/10/26 12:20

It's mostly because you're violently apathetic. You haven't really shown the capacity for caring about any living thing other than yourself. Aside from that, I just find you basically unpleasant to talk to, but for a more compassionate person I would be able to excuse that.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/10/26 13:54

@Skyk
I'm not apathetic to normal people. I can and do care about people. It's just that I believe criminals should suffer for their crimes, and I don't believe they can be fixed (see 2017-08-xx comments). Why the fu,ck do murders deserve my compassion?

@Draco (10:52)
examples?

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/10/26 14:39

What is good about compassion exactly? Compassion drives killers and criminals. One of the most compassionate creatures on earth is a mother grizzly bear towards her children (not just a saying, I am talking about literal compassion as we know it) and you can imagine what that allows her to do. Please explain to me why emotional empathy would help anyone make good decisions.

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/10/26 22:23

There's no such thing as a "good" decision without some moral background.

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/10/26 22:36

@amazingdude
I didn't say any examples because I've seen it happen once and I don't remember what it was about. All I remember is ha55ii updated a game (PG2 maybe?) to fix a bug, Hachi wondered what it fixed, and ha55ii explained what it fixed immediately afterward. Ha55ii didn't explicitly respond to Hachi, and it just seemed to me that ha55ii forgot to add a description so he added it later. I know it has happened before because MG said it did.

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/10/26 22:46

Is it just me or do all the interesting conversations only happen while I don't have reliable internet access?

For something on-topic, the average person is said to only have enough real empathy for ~150 different people at any given point in their life- generally meaning one's family, friends, and a "pantheon" of influential gods/heroes/celebrities. After that they're either filed into a faceless stereotype or just forgotten about altogether by the end of the day.

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/10/26 23:39

What do emotions/compassion have to do with morals?

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danstroyer				#SWxiPlD1 2017/10/27 00:17

PG2 IS NOT DEAD BUT IF YOU GUYS KEEP UP THIS NEGATIVE COMMENTS IT WILL BE, WE NEED TO TRY TO GET THE POWDER GAME ALIVE AGAIN (its in a semidead state) CMON WHOS WITH ME

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/10/27 00:32

People will justify a lot of otherwise immoral actions if they don't particularly care about anybody the consequences would affect.

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/10/27 01:19

There are no negative comments, I don't know why people see them that way. If you don't like the "debate" type comments then feel free to ignore them and continue a different discussion at the same time, nothing is stopping you so there is no problem.

We need a system where beneficial actions are supported and detrimental ones have consequences, not relying on oxytocin to tell us to do the right thing. "Caring" about someone on an emotional level is a completely flimsy, situational thing to rely on, it's happenstance. There needs to be an unwavering baseline to conduct ourselves by.

People can be taught to be pro-social rather than anti-social just because it is beneficial and yields reward in many ways, rather than hoping it aligns with the right emotional stimulation.

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/10/27 03:52

There is no objective measure of "right" or "wrong". Even the most pragmatic person possible must still have a fundamental set of subjective values. I never said that it has to be purely emotional, but there is no such thing as pure logic when it comes to making the "right" choice, because there is no such thing as any objective measure of good or bad.

Compassion is more than just whether you immediately feel good or bad about someone else. It's a trait of valuing the wellbeing of other living things. Compassion represents a goal, while logic is a tool. If you don't value other life, no amount of logic is going to make you

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/10/27 05:26

compassion and ting: https://pastebin.com/p1VgHkju

I don't agree with this approach since we can't have any harmony without some homogeny. That is, everyone needs a common ground and in this case that would be logical decisions. Without that benchmark there is no reason for people not to stray into chaos. We can weigh the good and bad of a decision with more than logic, but it's important to have unchanging measures. If we tried to be completely rational then I think we would no longer be human. So the important message here is that I'm not saying what compassion achieves is necessarily bad - we may arrive at the same result through "logic" (or other values) as we would through what I consider compassion. In my opinion, if someone reached a good outcome but did it by acting on emotions, then it was wrong.

There will always be some subjectivity which is why humans constantly make compromises in order to be part of any system, but we have an innate nature. The fact that we all have a head, body and limbs (along with pretty similar brains with similar reward functions) is evidence enough of that. Everyone has deviations but no one is alien. Naturally we even recognise what was "subjectively good" for others when it wasn't desirable for ourselves.

So what is the principle with compassion? For example I know plenty of people who inherited debilitating conditions and wished that we hadn't supplemented their lives (they live only because we decided whether they should live or die) so they lived a life of suffering and their genes were continued. Compassionate impulse tells us to value all life and makes us squirm at the thought of allowing Darwinism to make the weak suffer (not necessarily killing, just putting them through adversity). The cold and calculated decision allows us things like euthanasia. This is just an example so let's not go off on a tangent, I am not saying I firmly believe we should euthanise everyone who is "defective", but only using this hypothetically to see the different ways of making decisions.

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βBETA					#0rob4al8 2017/10/27 05:54

I see this discussion is going divine.

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/10/27 06:13

At this point, when someone expects me to read three or more paragraphs in a pastebin I just give up. If you wanna have a debate, go on Reddit or something, but I have lost all motivation to try and convince anyone of anything on the Powder Game 2 comment boards.

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/10/27 06:50

I don't see it as us trying to best each other or change each other's minds, it is just information to me. I admire anyone who was willing to share dialogue and put forth their thoughts, so thank you to everyone who has.

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/10/27 12:48

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs makes a decent morality system. Some general rule like "X <(Y+2)" where X is one's own priority section while Y is the priority section of somebody else- so an objectively moral person would never put their own love life above someone else's need to breathe.

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1488					#9ndySrFD 2017/10/29 04:53

Whether you wsnt to admit it or not, the white race is the most successful race in human history

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/10/29 05:28

Not very successful from an ethical and non-ignorant perspective. It's easy to win something if you cheat.

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/10/29 14:33

What is "cheating"? Is there an honour code built into nature? You really think every race in history wasn't at each other's throats, and that every race has had periods of coming out on top or being dominated?

If you want a good argument against white supremacy then just look at the swaths of ingenuous whites who adopt white guilt and neoliberalism.

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U HAVE 2 VOTE!!!		#oivMsWIR 2017/10/29 14:59

@Minsheme, Dracobot, amazingdude,etc.
I don't think that you should post that stuff in the Powder Game 2 comments, but post that stuff on a different website. If you keep posting this, I will tell ha55ii to get rid of all these useless comments about random stuff. Also, stop posting comments with profanities in them. The PG2 comments is here not because ha55ii wants you to talk about races, cheating, history, etc.

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/10/29 18:50

You're not anyone's boss UH2V, nobody gives a shift what you think is "useless" or "random".

On topic: https://pastebin.com/kn1UZGck

"Honorable" combat is mostly a myth that super-powers use to keep the status quo. If both sides use equal levels of force, the richer side will always come out on top in the long run because a lost battle drains a smaller percentage of their resources- 1,000 from 10,000,000 is much easier to handle than 1,000 from 10,000. Saying there's such a thing as "cheating" is a luxury only available to the guy that would win a fair fight.

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/10/30 02:42

@UH2V
Amazingdude is archiving the comments, anyway. Do you want me to talk about PG2? Fine.

Side note: "Cheating" implies using a tactic that gives yourself an unfair advantage over others (there doesn't have to be a set of rules that must be followed); by "advantage over others" I mean the goal implied is to be the last race standing (as per evolution). The "advantage" is making *sure* the other races don't become dominant over the whites by utilizing their position and power that the other races don't have. The definition of the term "unfair" is entirely decided by us, but wouldn't you agree that this is a decent definition? It's like Rockefeller's monopoly: either sell your business to him or be overwhelmed in his shadow. It was *unfair* because your success depended on who you were at the time instead of something that you choose, even though the laws of the universe say it's perfectly fine to do so. Minsheme, I'm not saying that the white race is the only one that was racist at some point and I'm not saying that it was the only race to use that tactic to be dominant. All I'm saying is that, according to *my* understanding of "unfair", the whites have achieved their dominance unfairly.

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danstroyer				#OhRZvGPi 2017/10/30 03:39

im leaving if you all wont stop with the dumb stuff

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/10/30 04:32

Western civilisation and culture would still be as it is today even if at no point had whites rode on the backs of oppressed people, if they ever even did so disproportionately, keeping in mind that it was happening to the majority of peoples' existence was to serve someone else no matter what their background.

There are plenty of microcosms of all races showing their different performance. In my opinion East Asians (broadly) and Ashkenazis (le most oppressed race in history!!!! :( :(.) seem to outdo Whites at their own game, but that's the thing, it's just one "game", different races have different strengths. I've said in other comments, those in climates where it's more necessary to do so would build shelters and then begin focusing on more abstract mental tasks. Those in warmer climates had no biological need to evolve this way.

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1488					#BcZjX8L1 2017/10/30 05:05

White Power! Gas the jews!

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U HAVE 2 VOTE!!!		#oivMsWIR 2017/10/30 10:58

http://u-have-2-vote.weebly.com/haterlist.html
If you post hate comments or mean comments about me I will put you on the hate list

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King Kentucky			#paPdACwJ 2017/10/30 11:57

UH2V, put Kentucky, Kéntucky, raichu132, StarTrek(uh)Kirk?, MB Master, CV Master?, uh RCA's Minion, uh uh uh I don't remember anymore on there too. Also, shut the fuck up.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/10/30 12:00

@UH2V
Nobody wants you here fuckface. Do something useful with your life instead of micromodding on a comment board of a (almost) dead game, yelling at people just for talking. Just fuck off. Your website reeks of 9 year old cringe.

Tell you what: Post a picture of yourself holding a sign with your username, and if you're over 15, I'm withdrawing my account and never coming back.
(yes i know that was a bit too toxic. i love trolling trolls)

@draco
I wouldnt call it unfair. Back in the day, everyone enslaved, tortured, dominated, etc people they encountered.

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/10/30 12:07

@uh2v
Change your name, unless you really do care about votes.

I....I....What? Why is this already taken? I swear to God I did not take this username myself. I wanted to care the name "U HAVE 2 VAGINAS!!!" for him.
https://puu.sh/yaof7/3e1b0e55a8.png

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/10/30 12:41

Why is STS on the haterlist but I'm not? I've never been so insulted.

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U HAVE 2 VOTE!!!		#oivMsWIR 2017/10/30 13:40

Changing your name can't be don't on Dan-Ball, FYI.

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/10/30 13:59

@LK & UH2V
There's got to be about 20-30 more accounts, and that's no exaggeration.
RCA Liposuction is my favorite, and I came up with that one.

@TK
That's the probably-imposter STS from a few weeks ago.

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/10/30 14:47

I know you can't change it. That's why you'd lose all your "votes" - you'd make a new name.

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Hachi1					#pdDlVqmc 2017/10/30 16:16

oh woah this chat is way more interesting than the PG1 chat

add me to the hatelist plz <3

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danstroyer				#9UE0POrr 2017/10/30 23:19

I'm leaving and if your smart you should too I'm 10 and I know that

now I'm going to check in the comments until Saturday and if nothing changes or it just gets more toxic I'm leaving forever

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1488					#Ckl15dqk 2017/10/31 02:06

You are wrong. Whtie people are superior

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Tyne and wear			#5GBDuOyX 2017/10/31 05:27

*Were superior. You colonised the world but the world is colonising you now. Congrats you played yourself.

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ZEggs					#Rt8ZuRYF 2017/10/31 05:29

FUCKING DIE YOU FUCKING FAGGOT
DELETE HIS WORKS!!
THE DICTATOR OF POWDER GAME - U HAVE 2 VOTE!!
HE BELIEVES HE IS THE RULER,
HE ISN'T
HE THINKS HIS 10 YEAROLD MINE CAN HANDLE POWDER GAME
IT CAN'T
HE IS OUR ENEMY, LOOK AT HIS NAME
YOU SEE, HE WILL NEVER HAVE FAME
perhaps UH2V should listen to "STFU" By Filthy Frank

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ZEggs					#Rt8ZuRYF 2017/10/31 05:30

If you are wondering, I am a person from PG1, I think I actually make decent uploads.
UH2V is spreading cancer and ha.te all over dan-ball and should be banned. Please go to PG1 click delete on all his works.

==================================================

MidnightMonster			#VfijhzSI 2017/10/31 06:46

A hate list?
I don't want to get too involved in this, but if you "hate" people just because of a mean comment, you need to calm down, and making a hate list just takes it too far. A lot of drama has been happening, some uploads being deleted, (Which shouldn't happen anyways, as people work hard on the things they upload, but if it's inappropriate, I can kinda understand that.) and now a hate list. I wonder what PG2 was like before all this drama.

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IFIDIE					#kDtwbHK9 2017/10/31 06:48

Everyone hating on UH2V

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danstroyer				#RyqAdxrS 2017/10/31 08:15

UH2V is 10?

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lmao					#Y2A6Zh3j 2017/10/31 08:20

I bet

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OmegaPirate				#D5Zdki7l 2017/10/31 08:36

This place never ceases to amaze me.

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/10/31 08:58

@danstroyer
Just come back a few weeks from now, and if that doesn't work, come back a few weeks later. It will die down soon.

@MidnightMonster
Pockets of about the same drama, and the rest of the time we didn't have much dispute at all.

I'm going to call this the "U HAVE 2 HATE" era. Anyone else have a name?

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King Kentucky			#paPdACwJ 2017/10/31 09:02

i haven't been this amused in a while

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King Kentucky			#paPdACwJ 2017/10/31 09:16

"Comments code of conduct
Use appropriate expressions.
Don't post offensive comments.
Don't reply to any inflammatory comments but ignore them."

this is my first time seeing this i think

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/10/31 09:47

Can everyone stop being so rude, please?

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/10/31 10:25

https://pastebin.com/rGkXYK4Z

The guy's 10 years old. I know, because I was that age once.

@1488
Its getting old now. Just stop.

@t&w
Reverse colonization? If this turns out to be true I can see a reverse "revolution" coming soon.

@danstroyer
The same was said about the climate debate. That era lasted 2.5 months and then limped on into a few more topics, including the race debate most recently.

@eggogirl
Powder toy.

@draco
Yeah ill incorporate it into the great debate.

@KK
Thats been there for literal years now.

@UH2V
UH2V, I'm still open to the challenge. I'm withdrawing my account and disappearing forever if you're over 15 and can prove it by taking a picture of yourself, holding a paper saying "U HAVE 2 VOTE!!!" and the date, coming from your ACCOUNT AND ID "U HAVE 2 VOTE!!! #oivMsWIR"
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U HAVE 2 VOTE!!!		#oivMsWIR 2017/10/31 11:50

https://pastebin.com/6UNZRmbL

Note: Offensive replies or replies containing profanities will be reported to ha55ii.
1. @TK 10/30 12:41PM
I'm not putting you on the hater list, because you have not posted any mean comment about me.

2. @Minsheme 10/31 10:47AM
True.

3. @ZEggs 10/31 5:30AM
No way. You are the one that's spreading it.

4. @ZEggs 10/31 5:29AM
If you don't like me, fine. You don't need to be angry and use profanities.
P.S. Are you hating me because of my name or what?

5. @MidnightMonster 10/31 6:46AM
People are just cyber-bullying a lot in the PG Comments. I don't know why.

6. @Hachi1 10/30 4:17PM
*Same answer as in [1.]

7. @Minsheme 10/30 12:15PM
Not appropriate. All those stupid images you are making that are:
A. rude B. making fun of me C. Photoshopped or changed by inspect element
need to go away.

8.@amazingdude 10/30 12:00PM
*Same answer as in [4.]

9. @danstroyer 10/27 12:17AM
What the heck are you posting?

10. @kittyprank 10/26 11:55PM
True.

11. @danstroyer 10/24 11:49PM
The PG2 comments were not made for posting random comments, yes, but *Same answer as in [9.]

12. @卐卐14ϟϟ88卐卐 10/22 4:37PM
Your comment really needs to get deleted.

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MidnightMonster			#VfijhzSI 2017/10/31 11:51

@Dracobot
Seems better than what the PG2 comment board is now.

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eandip					#SmU02I6Z 2017/10/31 13:08

Jesus, you guys really seem to hate UH2V. I don't see any comments by him, he delete them or something? Someone wanna fill me on what happened?

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/10/31 13:30

you can't tell which one UH2V is?.. there are not many possible people

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/10/31 14:14

If you think I haven't been saying mean things about you, you've got poor reading comprehension on top of everything else.

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Tyne and wear			#5GBDuOyX 2017/11/01 02:40

In all honesty, I've barely even noticed UH2V. Whatever he posts has little do do with the conversation at hand and the content of whatever he says is generally uninteresting or irrelevant. I barely even read them. One day he's going to look back on this epoch of his life and wince at it. We can all relate to this, can't we?

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/11/01 03:21

When I was his age I mostly obsessed over dinosaurs and castles, not rules or reputation. So no, I don't really relate all that well to his point of view.

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Beandip					#SmU02I6Z 2017/11/01 04:08

@Minsheme
Wow, I'm pretty stupid. I didn't realize that you guys were abbreviating the name.
And Jesus UH2V, you need to calm down. You're making a fool of yourself.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/11/01 05:16

https://pastebin.com/TvRuVZ0x

@UH2V
Just stop. Please. You've already lost every ounce of respect you once had (if any). You're only embarrasing yourself. If I were you, I'd apoligize for everything and try to make myself a better person.

Also, Why are you changing the timestamps to am/pm? Just keep the 24 hour format, it makes it easier to find the comment on the CB, and besides, its much better than that stupid am/pm time system. I know its really trivial, but it bugs me to sh,it to see someone voluntarily change units to an inferior format. Why does am/pm time even exist? (new debate time!)

Your efforts to wipe the CB's are pointless. I've been archiving the CBs since 2017-05-16, both in HTML and text format, and regularly post archives. In fact, here's one right now: https://pastebin.com/vRrYuHWu. Good luck getting sh,it taken down, as I was "doxxed" a few months back, and it  never got removed, and had to wait for the 1000 post limit to swallow it up. I've tried contacting ha55iii in the past, both English and Japanese, and he never responded nor did anything. You think your webmaster on appgames will listen, but in reality, he won't. If they really cared about comments being on topic, they'd have been wiped already. The climate change argument**, punishment argument, flat earth argument, etc. would have never been given the chance to fluorish. You ain't going to get sh,it done.

The only things that have been removed are shady links (ask Vidkunssonn about DBCBB, which was an innocent project), but that may just be a bot.

@beandip
This guy keeps bit,ching at us to stay on topic and not debate what we've been debating for over 5 months now (diff topics, same debate), and then he starts complaining about works he doesnt like, and is overall just an asshole trying t o micromod the CB. What really tipped him over was the fact he made a HATE LIST(!!) about us, which really shows how immature he is.

-------

**This is why all my pastes are titled "Climate alarmism debunked", despite not being about climate change. At the beginning, I was mostly half trolling, expecting the debate to die off after a week. Miraculously, it continues now (although it has barely limped through some parts) I just kept reusing the title, and only TK has noticed.

"Torture King           #TI3DWoRg 2017/08/22 11:40

Out of curiosity, why are you still naming everything "climate alarmism debunked"? That last one had nothing to do with the climate or even natural science as a whole."

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Tyne and wear			#5GBDuOyX 2017/11/01 05:37

@amazingdude
I actually noticed several weeks ago but I never brought it up for the sake of not restarting the whole debate. I assumed that you either couldn't be bothered to change it or just trying to restart it.

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MidnightMonster			#VfijhzSI 2017/11/01 05:41

Here to change the subject a little.
Anyone here going trick-or-treating? Am I the only one? Oh well, I'm dressing up as a taco, because why not?

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King Kentucky			#SBAn4niq 2017/11/01 05:57

I wanna dress up as a piece of sh.it but UH2V took that idea.
Honestly, that was lame but I'm still posting it.
What were y'all even talking about before this came about UH2V

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/11/01 06:02

I wish I was young enough to trick-or-treat/not so busy that I don't have time to make a costume. At least I'm old enough to buy myself candy, though

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βBETA					#0rob4al8 2017/11/01 06:52

I'm young enough to trick-or-treat, I just have too much homework due the following day to do so. ):

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MidnightMonster			#VfijhzSI 2017/11/01 08:08

I have tons of homework to do, too, But it's not due tomorrow, so I'm good for trick-or-treating! I'm going to start at around 7:30, because that's when all the good candy is available!

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/11/01 08:35

I would trick-or-treat, but I've got to start applying to graduate school. :P

@amazingdude
I also noticed before TK said something, but I just didn't bother to mention it.

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Hachi1					#pdDlVqmc 2017/11/01 09:51

lmao draco i feel you man. What/where are you applying for? I'm doing graduate maths starting in february, doing a research project in differential geometry.
i did however go to a halloween party where i dressed up as a caterer from the main catering company at my university B-)

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/11/01 11:08

I always dress up as a zombie and just do normal things as a zombie. Some years I mix it up with a specific person/death like one time I was a clown that got stabbed in the heart with a balloon sword, but otherwise I'm just a really pale guy in muddy formal wear.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/11/01 13:07

I stopped TOTing after I was 14. It just got boring being lonely.

@T&W
Wanna restart the great climate debate?

@KK
We were talking about racism. Wanna give your thoughts?

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U HAVE 2 VOTE!!!		#oivMsWIR 2017/11/01 13:30

My future uploads won't be UH2V, because I created a new account and will make better uploads.
P.S. People keep doing stuff like "U HAVE 2 VAGINAS" so I "changed" my name. (Even though in BBS I will be UH2V)

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King Kentucky			#SBAn4niq 2017/11/01 14:21

I think if people never evolved we wouldn't have these problems. Cavemen did it right.
If we were cavemen, i don't think racism would exis- well, shit idk fucking know man.

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/11/01 14:36

The first known "war" (As in, weapon-use between two distinct factions with a specific goal.) was a cannibalistic genocide between Neanderthals and Sapiens over a river valley/cave network in what would later be Turkey. So like, if anything; we're less racist than cavemen.

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/11/02 02:06

@TK
That would be speciesist wouldn't it? It's absolutely shocking to me that this term even exists by the way. I know some purple haired girl who uses it.

Even chimps technically have wars so it seems likely that the first undocumented war was long before that, not that I know anything about that genocide you mentioned.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/11/02 07:43

@TK
Neanderthals arent a race. Thats like saying that fighting gorillas is racist, even though they're a different species

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King Kentucky			#SBAn4niq 2017/11/02 11:15

"Stop Please Fighting"
Stop, please fighting!
so we stop what we are doing and we must please fighting question mark smiley face exclamation point?

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IFIDIE					#kDtwbHK9 2017/11/02 11:38

XD please is at the bottom so you read it as "Stop Fighting Please"

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turtleboy19				#rwCIlBG9 2017/11/02 12:12

comment section=AIDS

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Dark Doctor				#UssduMir 2017/11/02 12:28

What is the key concept of capitalism?

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/11/02 15:01

@King Kentucky
Let's Fighting Love

@Dark Doctor
Production hinging on organic demand. Compare to socialism where it is sort of technocratic (at best. I don't know any examples where it wasn't just bureaucratic instead) in my opinion.

If you allow unhindered, "natural" demand (total free market) then you will probably spawn hypercapitalism. To me that means an unnatural force affecting the natural forces, i.e. putting profit before basic human needs, "decency", so that the natural system can't maintain itself.

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/11/02 18:48

Neanderthals were a human subspecies, not just another primate. 1 in 20 of our common ancestors are estimated to have been neanderthals, so it's not like they were a fully separate thing like gorillas are.

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/11/02 22:15

@TK
It's still subspeciesist, though.

================================================== {Topic shift 9}

Beandip					#SmU02I6Z 2017/11/03 03:07

Anyone wanna discuss gun control in America?

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/11/03 04:38

I personally wouldn't feel safe living in mountain lion territory without a large caliber somewhere on the property and don't know how other people do, but I also don't see a point to automatic anti-personnel weapons unless your goal is to mow down a crowd of unarmored civilians.

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KK						#R0hTCJvb 2017/11/03 05:12

I think we should stick to hand-to-hand combat. A mountain lion won't be able to beat me hand-to-paw and if it lucks up and eats a leg or arm I'll just say "jokes on you, you have aids now"

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/11/03 05:21

Since the year 2000, in the United States, there have been three fatal mountain lion attacks, and over ten thousand accidental firearm-related deaths. I'm in cougar territory, and I'd honestly rather take my chances with the big cats

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Beandip					#SmU02I6Z 2017/11/03 08:13

The way I see it, we do have a problem with gun violence, but that problem is linked directly with poverty. The vast majority of gun homicides are done with handguns and in low income areas. If we put more money into programs that keep people in low income areas off the streets and in school, we'd see way less gun violence.

While "assault style" weapons may not be the most practical gun to own, reducing gun deaths in America is entirely an issue of combating poverty rather than banning guns.

That'd said, I think giving mountain lions aids is a fantastic idea too.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/11/03 12:58

https://pastebin.com/fB8gxvBY

==================================================

Oh boy here we go again!

More gun control isn't going to help. Criminals will get guns regardless, and if they can't use a gun, they'll find another way to kill people, whether it be trucks, bombs, or knives. What we should be doing is imposing stricter laws on who can enter this country (another debate!). In the end, gun control only hurts the innocent people. They can pass more laws, but it ain't gonna work.

I feel this issue should be up to the states to decide. If California wants to take all our guns, then they should push for more state legislation, rather than force it on the whole country. Why should people in Texas have to give up their guns because California doesn't like guns? After all, this country is based off of the idea of small government and liberty, and nationwide gun control takes both of these away from us.

It also undermines the second anendment. The second amendment does not protect hunting, or open carrying. It is there to protect us from a tyrannical government. If a government becomes tyranical, it is the peoples' duty to overthrow the government and keep it in check. It would only take 9 million Americans to overthrow the US government. While some may argue that this is not a threat in the modern world, a tyrannical government is ALWAYS a threat. Hitler seemed like a good guy in the early 30s. Look how that turned out.

If the government takes away your right to protect yourself, that is a massive overstep in government power, and is a VERY bad sign that the government is becoming too strong. We've already lost our 4th amendment (patriot act), and the 1st and 2nd are under attack. If we are unwilling to defend our own constitution and bill of rights, what kind of people are we?

"But nobody needs to own assault weapons!" If we give the government the power to decide what we can and cannot use to protect ourselves, then we lost that right. Limiting a right is no better than removing it entirely.

@Skyk

Why not ban drugs, alcohol, and vehicles?

Drugs: 47,055 deaths, in 2014 ALONE. Source: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6450a3.htm

Alcohol: 88,000 deaths each year in the United States from 2006 – 2010. Source: https://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/fact-sheets/alcohol-use.htm

Vehicles: 35,092 deaths, in 2015 ALONE. Source: http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/general-statistics/fatalityfacts/overview-of-fatality-facts

I can go on an on about things that are more lethal than guns.

It's clear that each of these 3 kill more people than firearms each year. Why not ban these? Oh wait! Drugs are already illegal, Prohibition failed miserably, and vehicles are a necessary part of transportation!

Mexico strict gun laws. No gun violence here! Definitely no corruption and cartel problems!

Even IF we banned guns, the effect would be small, ineffective, and would take away the most important right we have as a country. Who's to say that the 60% of Americans who own guns (mostly Republicans) will actually turn in their guns and essentially give up their right to protection? How will you take care of the millions of unregistered guns, illegal guns on the streets, illegally imported guns, etc. It'll NEVER get through congress, let alone the president and supreme court.

Like beandip said, "The vast majority of gun homicides are done with handguns and in low income areas". Putting regulations on "assault" weapons wouldnt stop these murders.

@beandip

I do agree with you here. Poverty is a hard issue to solve, and "just give the poor more money!" wouldnt work. What we should improve is education and mental health, which would reduce poverty at its source.

Or, we could just lock them all up and impose stricter sentencing laws, and send more cops out there to catch all the crime that happens. Both options would work, especially in combination with each other.

==================================================

Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/11/03 14:19

That argument made more sense before WW2. If a modern industrialized government decided to be tyrannical, it'd take a lot more than some third-hand ordinance for a bunch of untrained civilians to do anything about it. At that point, you've got to make your cause appeal to a non-tyrant with a similar level of technological sophistication, or else they'll just blow you up and keep on tyrannizing.

==================================================

Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/11/03 15:19

I've spent a lot of time around people from places like /k/... a lot. American civilians could take on the state 5 times over and have energy to spare. Personally I had to see it to believe it, it's amazing how prepared people are to go into militarisation mode.

==================================================

Molefight				#cN5uoELD 2017/11/03 16:20

@Minsheme
Yes, I don't know what /k/ is, but I would personally fight to the death if a tyrant ever rose to power, and I know many others who would as well.
I have around a dozen firearms and at least 1000 rounds of ammunition, but I have nowhere near the arsenal others I know have.

==================================================

Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/11/03 16:51

Yeah, that might work well for the first year or so, but what happens when ammunition runs low, parts start to break, and none of the civilian factions control any mines/factories with which to make more? Or worse, what if they did expend resources to capture some, but the government just bombs their losses into slag? Sorry, but I just don't see a victory for guerillas when the war is based on resource attrition and the aggressors know the terrain equally well.

==================================================

Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/11/03 19:49

@TK literally seize the means of production.

The thing is, it is sort of a mutually-assured destruction. The state depends on the people. I won't spoonfeed about all the implications of this and what it means for strategising things like this, but it's amazing how people organise themselves in these situations. Every community quickly finds their leader(s), becomes organised, and assuming martial law takes place it's almost impossible for anyone to not join you. Even many people within the government will abandon, many of their grunts will work in civilian favour.

NOTE ALL 100% HYPOTHETICAL DO NOT TRY TO IMPLEMENT- THIS IS FOR HISTORICAL, CULTURAL THEORY ONLY- EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES AND WHAT HAVE YOU

==================================================

Beandip					#SmU02I6Z 2017/11/04 06:38

https://pastebin.com/rjPzdEGN

Torture King

You make a good argument, but you don't account for the biggest part of how a tyrannical government functions. While obviously government troops have significantly more firepower than civilians, they aren't going to be all that happy to use it. Assuming that this is the local government trying to enforce its will, rather than a foreign power, bombing infrastructure is going to do more harm to the gov than the people, as the govs long term goal is to control the infrastructure.

When the government enforces its will on its own populace, they use manpower rather than explosives. Back during civil rights era, Federal troops were brought in to enforce the desegregation of schools. Obviously desegregation is a noble use of the government's power, and the troops faced little opposition other than minor protesting. However, a tyrannical government will have much less noble goals, and likely a good portion of the armed forces will not agree with the use of their power. On top of this, those that do support the tyrannical government know that a little under 1 in 3 of the citizens they are oppressing own one or more firearms, and are capable of fighting back.

The main reason I support an armed populace is not because I want to fight an open war against a government I see as tyrannical. Rather, an armed populace discourages a government from becoming tyrannical in the first place, due to the threat of armed revolt.

==================================================

amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/11/04 16:09

https://pastebin.com/U175RE58

@TK
With modern technology, it wouldn't be hard to organize a nationwide uprising and rebellion against the government. Even if we get only 10% of the country to participate, that's 30 million - Enough to be a serious threat regardless. I know I said 9 million earlier, and that seems kind of low. I just heard it from somewhere and don't know if it's accurate or not.

With a coördinated effort, ammo makers can supply the resistance with enough ammunition to keep fighting. Alot of the people in the gun industry are pro second amendment. Minsheme is right, the people WILL organize to fight a tyrranical governent.

@Minsheme
Thats what makes us great. Our people have the duty to keep the government in check, and our government has to watch its ass, or it'll face a heavy uprising. While the government is more powerful now than 100 years ago, the argument still holds weight.

@Beandip
You're right, the government really has nothing to gain from going tyrannical. They destroy the country, and then the people start a revolution against them. Either a HUGE civil war breaks out, or a new government is installed.

"The main reason I support an armed populace is not because I want to fight an open war against a government I see as tyrannical. Rather, an armed populace discourages a government from becoming tyrannical in the first place, due to the threat of armed revolt."

I love this quote.

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Hachi1					#pdDlVqmc 2017/11/04 16:28

I love and hate minsheme at the same time

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King Kentucky			#M23kwciU 2017/11/04 17:21

"Give me people with guns, give me people with heart, give me people with fight, give me people with an inability to last more than 10 seconds in bed, give me people with a phobia of watching South Park for more than one hour, give me people with three nipples, and give me people with the need to have theories."
-Benjamin Franklin, probably

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ZEggs					#Rt8ZuRYF 2017/11/05 00:36

Yes. UH2V is actually 10 or 11. He said it in one of his comments on PG1

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U HAVE 2 VOTE!!!		#oivMsWIR 2017/11/05 01:21

My name is not in bold because I'm in a different account. If you don't believe me, check the #xxxxxxxx.

@Hachi1
What?

@danstroyer
The PG2 comment board was not made for posting stuff like "UH2V is 10","[insert Pastebin link here]", or PR (Pokemon-related) comments.

Also, I think the Pokemon is kind of inappropriate so I don't think you should be posting that.

@turtleboy19
Comment section = cancer & cyber-bullying.

Things people post in the PG2C are:
A. Pastebin links to loads of non-PG2 related stuff f.e. (climate alarmism debunked)
B. UH2V is 10 or UH2V hate comments
C. some quotes and stuff f.e. King Kentucky's comment
D. Some random upload lists or Pokemon-related "words"
E. SPAM, jokes, Photoshopped images, etc.

==================================================

Tyne and wear			#5GBDuOyX 2017/11/05 04:07

Well observed. Although you forgot to include the contents of your own comments.

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King Kentucky			#M23kwciU 2017/11/05 05:35

UH2V, you're the only one who's mentioned pastebin, hate comments, etc. We just want to talk about PG uploads about climate change, guns, etc., but there you are trying to stop us from doing what the pgcb is intended for.

Also, there is no point to prove me otherwise because everything I say is the truth.

==================================================

Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/11/05 05:43

@UH2V
I mean like, none of the admins have barely bothered to moderate the boards at all and we've been "off topic" for a little under a decade. The most anybody ever saw before you showed up was an insulting comment suddenly vanishing after a few days with no explanation, that combined with the odd translations around the site would make it plausible that the only real rule is "Just stop being an a$5hole for like 2 minutes while you type, gosh!" with a significant amount of redundancy for people that have never considered the prospect of that.

==================================================

Beandip					#SmU02I6Z 2017/11/05 06:20

@2H2V
You're acting like you can't have discussion about powder game and other stuff as well. You're the one dragging down the quality of the posts here by complaining, everyone else has no problem coexisting.

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U HAVE 2 VOTE!!!		#oivMsWIR 2017/11/05 07:25

you can't even spell UH2V.
COMMENT SECTION = CANCER

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Beandip					#SmU02I6Z 2017/11/05 07:36

@UH2v
I hardly see how a typo invalidates my opinion. If the comment section is cancer, it is because of you.

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LB85					#6CbiPtsz 2017/11/05 08:03

Ohhhh....So this is Everyone has been....Well..Not coming here....

Also hi to everyone who knows me from PG2!Also,UH2V is a problem in here too?

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OwenDaPanda				#VYQpyVtv 2017/11/05 09:21

Ummm, UH2V you are not a moderator. If people want to post about pokemon related stuff, let them!

Also, I agree with beandip. Fro. What I've seen, this comment section was fine with small arguments and such, then you came. If this is cancer, you are the tumor.

================================================== {Topic shift 10}

King Kentucky			#M23kwciU 2017/11/05 11:40

Debate for 11/5/2017 - 11/11/2017
Do you trust your government? or Do you agree with Einstein saying time is relative?
I don't know why I'm doing this. Y'all start speaking another language when sh.it like this happens.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/11/05 12:43

Can we all just ignore this cuck and continue with this debate? If we ignore him, eventually he'll go away.

@Zeggs
Yup, I figured.

@UH2V
We're sick of you. Please use all 3 of your brain cells before posting comments. Or come back when you have a functioning brain.

@TK
How often do comments get deleted, and wha seems to be the criteria? My dox only got "deleted" once the limit ate it up, and I've heard that comments past the limit are hidden, but still in existance. Somebody posted a link way back in 2012, but I lost it. I don't even know if it was true or not however.

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Beandip					#SmU02I6Z 2017/11/05 13:33

@King Kentucky
Depends on the level of government. I certainly trust my local government, and to some extent the state government as they represent my interests much more accurately. I don't really trust the federal government at all, and it seems more often than not they legislate to only secure more power to themselves, rather than for the good of the citizens.

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/11/05 14:02

Third party links and deliberately obfuscated unicode rarely last more than a few hours, so there's probably some automated alert for the admins to go over when those get past the first filter. I remember the community WorldofText links were particularly despised for some reason.

Beyond that, post-posting-deletions are actually pretty rare, it happened a few times in the flame wars I participated in when somebody said something particularly out-of-line but otherwise the arguments were left intact. I guess is one of the admins (my bet's on tylor) skims active conversations and removes anything too offensive for their ad-contracts to tolerate.

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UH2V					#oivMsWIR 2017/11/05 14:38

https://pastebin.com/djsrjWJq

Hi guys
amazingdude doesn't have a functioning brain because amazingdude is posting these ANNOYING shitty comments.

P.S. danstroyer doesn't have a functioning brain because danstroyer is using the P.G.2.C for Pokemon-related comments are stuff. He/she already posted comments in the P.G.2.C about Pokemon pixel arts, Pikachu, Ash Ketchum, etc.

Pokemon uploads are AIDS so that's why they are in the list of offensive uploads.

P.P.S. My new account is called ChainReactionGuy, in case you were wondering.
That was to stop cancer like,"Change or name unless you care about votes", and "UH2V = U HAVE 2 VAGINAS!"
Differences between CRG and UH2V:
UH2V tells people to vote and sometimes makes vote traps, CRG does not.
UH2V posts bad uploads, CRG will not post bad uploads.
UH2V posts some messages in uploads that might be offensive, CRG will not post any inappropriate content or vote scams.
P.P.P.S....? Whenever I use "f.e." in the P.G.2.C, it stands for "for example."

@Beandip
The comment section is cancer NOT because of me, but because of all these people are posting ANNOYING & bad comments.

@Kk
Shadow master IS NOT UH2V, CHAINREACTIONGUY IS, YOU IDIOT.

================================================== {End of PC2}

amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/11/06 15:59

A bit late, but oh well.

I do trust my government. While it isn't perfect, it isn't fu,cked up enough to cause any serious concern. Trump is a walking curveball when it comes to the politcal machine. Trump has restored my faith in government by being an authentic voice in a bought out arena. But enough about trump.

Personally I think we need a government purge. Like I said, I still trust my government, but it isn't perfect.

One day, people will look back at us for intertwining corporations and government in the same way we look at the past for intertwining religion and government. I'd definitely prefer corporations, however.

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{No relevant response}

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/11/07 14:28

Hey are we going to keep debating or are we just going to keep punching this wall (UH2V)?
Let's discuss taxes. Do you guys believe in flat tax? Should the rich pay more or less in taxes?

The debate has grown too big for only one paste, it will now be split every 5k lines, and TK's comment 2017/08/28 21:14 is the divider!
https://pastebin.com/YZ1tugLb
https://pastebin.com/DbD9qcsB

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/11/07 15:36

https://pastebin.com/Mjwq2WRE

High-ish flat tax with more deductions based on net spending within the national borders, if the super-rich are really that burdened with paying their employees then that should make their concerns moot. It's not that the government gets money that's important afterall, but that the government provides the economy with support and needs money to do that. It also incentivizes the rich that aren't immensely burdened with paying their workers to spend lots of money in other ways, which would also help business owners and lessen their concerns. Of course, the kicker is stressing that only spending in national borders would have any effect, so no Swiss bank accounts to cheat the system- as far as the IRS would be concerned, would-be scammers still have that money.

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King Kentucky			#M23kwciU 2017/11/07 16:04

oh my. why do yall keep it going. has everything not been said already

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Hachi1					#pdDlVqmc 2017/11/07 17:59

I don't think income tax should exist, it makes no sense. If someone is earning lots of money, it's because "what they're doing is valued by the community", so the benefit to society occurs via their work. Another issue is that, even if income tax isn't flat, it still hurts the lowest wage earners more than anyone else - they're the ones who can't afford to pay /any/ tax.

An undeniable fault with modern society is that your chances of success are basically determined by the circumstances you are born into. Tax should target inequality. I believe the way around this is a "wealth tax". Basically, each year you pay about 1.5% of your total worth as tax. This means students, who own nothing, or people who are working two jobs living in a rented apartment trying to make ends meet, basically pay zero tax. On the other hand, people who decide to buy golf courses or whatever pay a tonne of tax.

The one argument against a wealth tax is "it unfairly targets the elderly - they can't even earn money anymore and yet they need to keep paying tax, and they're more likely to have savings!". A way around this is that beyond a certain age, you can stop paying annual wealth tax, and when you pass away it's up to the person who inherits (the house for example) to pay the tax.

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/11/07 21:51

wow, no one ever thought of that before, let's implement tha

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Hachi1					#pdDlVqmc 2017/11/08 02:11

Lol I'm not trying to claim it, there are some countries in europe that already have it (and that verifies that it works). In recent elections that i've followed (new zealand, uk) there's always been at least one party that wanted to have a wealth tax.

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Σsigma					#dGUQeyap 2017/11/08 08:16

@Hachi
Or we can tax the poor more than the rich for absolutely no reason whatsoever.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/11/08 08:48

https://pastebin.com/17edr9cu

I'll state my opinion on taxes.

Taxes should be as low as possible. while still allowing the government to function. What money you make is YOURS, not the government's. The government should be much smart about how it spends its money. If the government can't watch its budget, we shouldn't have to foot the bill. I do fully understand that the government needs money, and taxation is how it obtains that money.

I believe in a flat tax. A flat tax is the fairest form of tax. Make $1000 a year, pay $100. Make $1,000,000 per year, pay $100,000. Taxing the wealthy a larger portion of their income just because they make more is morally wrong, their millions and billions belong to them, that they rightfully earned. The government doesn't deserve a higher portion of their money simply because they make more. That's like a parent saying "You have 100 pieces of candy. You don't need all of that, give me 50."

If the rich get to keep more of their money, they will have more to put back into the economy - trickle down economics. Increase taxes on the rich, and they will pass the increase on down to you.

@Esigma
Why are you logged in now suddenly?

Regressive tax (more on the poor than rich) is flat out stupid and unfair.

@Hachi
I hate income tax too, but where else would the government get their money?

You are simply wrong about success being based on birth conditions. While being born rich DOES increase your chances of success, its not a requirement. The good thing about America is that you can grow up dirt poor, but you have free access to education, where if you study hard, you can get into college and land a decent job. While the American dream isn't as strong as it used to be, it still is there.

Having a wealth tax (or any tax increase for that matter) would just encourage people to stash their money in foreign accounts, and the economy doesn't benefit from their wealth. Oh wait, what? It already happens!

@KK
Debate is fun, also trying to break the record (8 years) set by the EE debate.

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Beandip					#SmU02I6Z 2017/11/08 15:26

Taxes are interesting. I've also done much less research on this topic, so my opinions aren't as well informed. I do think that Americans pay too much in taxes, and seeing as a handful of states are able to get by without charging income tax, an abolishment of income tax as a whole may be feasible. This could be achieved by reducing government spending (I'm looking mostly at military and government funded healthcare), as well as a drastic reformation of the tax codes to prevent large American based businesses from not paying taxes.

Also, I was a little surprised how the opinions here are fairly conservative. What political ideology do you guys subscribe to? I'm a libertarian, but so far I've voted mostly republican.

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Hachi1					#pdDlVqmc 2017/11/08 17:21

anarchofascism

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Tyne and wear			#5GBDuOyX 2017/11/09 01:49

'''authoritarian''' '''socialism'''

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/11/09 12:22

@Beandip
Yeah, cut spending, get the government out of healthcare, etc. Let the free market decide. Anarcho capitalism. The government's job is to protect the people and their rights, not give them free shit. Income tax should be the first tax to go.

I identify as a republican/libertarian.

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/11/09 15:35

A general comment mostly about wealth tax: https://pastebin.com/99pNzY8D

I'm not sure where I am politically. I'm socially right wing and pretty neutral between authoritarian/libertarian, but with strong beliefs about it- very critical of every government I know of in the West.

In my opinion, wealth tax and hierarchies of dominance/skill/power are mutually exclusive. Wealth tax is like an attack/hindrance on unfettered meritocracy: it does not aim to be another system in itself and it does not supplement the current one, therefore it's transitional (in that way it may be comparable to socialism in Marxist theory, which is just considered to be a stage rather than a doctrine in itself).

The reason for this is that there's no principle behind it. Yes, in our current system, the way that people exist in the exponentially smaller+higher brackets is not perfect - the ideal should remain the same, because it's better to strive towards that unchanging rule/ideal (rule being that if someone has even the tiniest edge over you, they have more power, creating a bell curve of smaller and smaller groups that have greater and greater privileges).

Should the privilege of the most powerful people change? If so, I think the points of discussion ought to be: in what way does their wealth no correspond with their merits

Meritocracy and/or markets are pretty much an all or nothing game because of how they're built around static human nature. E.g. in 'The Quants' by Scott Patterson he mentions "testosterone-fuelled competition", which is completely accurate. People are still just as much animals at the most high, distinguished, formal level of power. We respond well to these conditions just because it's our nature to compete- our instinct is to compete with the goal of being the absolute top dog even though that's unrealistic.

This is a brutal way to live, and there are many ways to pacify it while still maintaining the natural system, but most attempts to hinder competition just end up devaluing meritorious/generative/productive behaviour, i.e. wealth tax will avert people from working, contributing, strengthening themselves.

If this was all total nonsense to you then I'll throw in one more analogy. In Canada, they often want 50:50 distribution of se.xes in their cabinets, why not let them? Seems like there's a huge pool of skilled people to choose from, so why not? There are plenty of people who are pretty much just as qualified, maybe just a tiny difference in their abilities, and we'd sacrifice that in exchange for equality. The main reason why this would never work is that as you climb higher and higher in power, the tiniest gain comes from an absurd amount of work. Compare with bodybuilding where someone has pretty much "capped out". In his first year he gained 14 pounds of muscle, now he works out all year to gain 2 pounds. This is mostly what fools people.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/11/11 02:32

@Minsheme
I think everything should be a full meritocracy. If race and gender truly didnt matter, then it wont matter if only white people or males are in the positions, because we're all equal. To end racism, we should try to unite as one and disregard that info when filling positions. Affirmative action and racial quotas only divide us. We just need to stop caring about race so much.

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orture King				#TI3DWoRg 2017/11/11 03:21

Physical appearance is only superficial if that's the only effect that's being measured in a controlled setting. Realistically however, not everyone acknowledges the irrelevance of physical traits on the mind and so the actual treatment of people can and will vary- causing the mentality of those affected to develop into vastly different directions because they have different challenges to overcome. A properly adaptable leadership of any sort should have a diverse background for the highest chance of success in unexpected situations. That's what people need governments for afterall, the times when things are so confusing that the average person doesn't know how to handle it on their own.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/11/11 05:20

@TK
How exactly is diversity necessary for good leadership? Isnt competency more important?

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/11/11 08:11

Someone who's really competent with numbers isn't necessarily going to be equally good with understanding why people do things. You need multiple points of view to combat multiple complex problems.

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King Kentucky			#M23kwciU 2017/11/11 11:01

and if the multiple viewpoints cant come up with a solution, they call me, cause i know the answer to everything

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/11/11 12:43

@TK https://pastebin.com/xCRyJxwk

I think that, for reasons you've described about our nature, governance should be impersonal. It doesn't necessarily need to be homogenised or diverse, it just needs to be able to make abstractions (i.e. "the act of considering something as a general quality or characteristic, apart from concrete realities, specific objects, or actual instances"). The reason is that this makes them impersonal and makes them work outside of their/our animal nature. It's not the members escape the natural and selfish state they're in; it's that they've abstracted ideas that are separate from that nature.

It's best for people to be governed coldly and mathematically, this doesn't mean it will neglect our animal/evolutionary needs and behaviours. To me that is the same as living according to a calendar and a clock (i.e. non-human things).

The idea that we only appreciate adversities/perspectives that we have experienced (or that we don't always appreciate those of others) shouldn't be taken into account. It implies that the ideas we form are completely limited by our emotions, which is worth considering for your average person, but should be left out of government. Emotional/evolutionary qualities like being affected by our physical appearance can be overcome by being impersonal.

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Adolf Hitler			#KPXCkBmN 2017/11/11 20:05

I am the greatest leader who ever lived on the planet

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former powder			#7lG1fseP 2017/11/11 22:22

Shocked that people still frequent pg comments.
Y'all know that powder game suks in 2017. PS your political takes are bulshlt and ya guys know it

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/11/11 23:41

@former powder
Are you 12? No one here is flaunting their opinion trying to say how great it is, it's just a discussion.
Good for you if you don't like PG, waste more time here plox.

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/11/12 11:37

@Minsheme
So the ideal government is some kind of VI-run bureaucracy? Yeah, I could see that, as long as there was a mostly ironclad way to keep the auditors/software engineers honest when looking for signs of corruption/manipulation. Otherwise you just end up with a govt.bot that gives its programmers a raise every few months to replace the senators doing the same for themselves.

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/11/12 23:14

@TK
Yes, it's pretty iron-fisted. I think most people are comfortable with the idea that the general public don't know what's best for themselves, but it's important to get a balance between running things efficiently and keeping people content with the system- they want to be able to observe that it's doing its job and understand how it's being done.

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βBETA					#0rob4al8 2017/11/13 01:09

So..., okay, I see that the comment board is going quite divine.

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Hachi1					#pdDlVqmc 2017/11/13 03:03

"I think most people are comfortable with the idea that the general public don't know what's best for themselves"

I'm inclined to disagree, most people seem to believe they know what's best for themselves. E.g. all the people who believe their self diagnosis of disease is correct and doctors are wrong. Most people are really dumb like that, maybe you've surrounded yourself with semi-intelligent people and forgotten about the rest?

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/11/13 08:11

@Hachi1
The reason most people are willing to accept this is that you can show them a group they perceive as less intelligent (even though the two groups' differences are pretty much idiosyncratic/happenstance most of the time) and they'll think the other side doesn't deserve a decision.

But that's why I say it's important to get a balance- they need to feel like they have control and need to have some of their immediate desires fulfilled.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/11/13 14:58

@TK
I dont believe diversity would help with multiple POVs as much as having philosophers in the government would (which would be a good idea BTW).

Vidkunssonn, join the debate

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/11/13 22:09

My other comment seems evil. The government SHOULD function for the people, but if it's a technocracy getting them from the point A to point B that the people want, they're not always gonna feel comfortable with how it gets there, mostly because it's hard to be so future-oriented.

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/11/14 07:31

@thisiscancer9132
Irony? Helping the homeless is very serious.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/11/14 08:40

@Minsheme
How should we help the homeless?

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/11/14 14:08

@amazingdude
Since I'm too lazy too lazy to write about it in detail atm, I'll just spoil the fun and say I was kidding. Chipmunk's upload was pretty clever humour though.

================================================== {Topic shift 11}

amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/11/15 12:56

So uhh, lets talk about something new now, something thats polarizing so we can actually debate and not just reinforce each others ideas.
What do you all think about all these sexual assault allegations?

We should take them seriously in a court of law. An allegation is just that, an allegation. It is in no way proving the accused did something wrong, and people's lives should not be ruined by an allegation that may or may not even be true.

Before any decision could be made, the cases should have to be settled in court.

Debate archives! We've also been completely swallowed by the limit twice now.
https://pastebin.com/GybdxXbf
https://pastebin.com/npGJHErg

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/11/16 10:59

I largely don't care about anything from Hollywood that isn't like, an actual movie. A celebrity being a terrible person (or not being a terrible person) isn't intrinsically different from any other random guy being those things.

I will say that I think false accusations made with the intention of discrediting someone should be punished with at least 50% of the sentence for the supposed crime.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/11/16 12:12

@TK
I dont care about hollywood either. All this shit is getting annoying to always hear in the news.
Nah, if anything they should get more than the crime they tried to push on the other person, plus a penalty

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/11/16 12:36

@AD
Instead of picking arguments that will never be resolved, because you care more about continuing to argue than you do about the issue itself, why don't you try discussing something you actually fundamentally care about?

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/11/16 12:59

And when there isn't enough evidence to convict the accused, even when it actually happened?

Some people have the power to convince the public more that they're innocent. And the current penalty for false accusations doesn't exactly motivate victims to seek justice.

I'm not saying we should get rid of the punishment altogether. I'm just saying we should consider the motivation.

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Hachi1					#pdDlVqmc 2017/11/16 13:22

@amazingdude

https://pastebin.com/M8e3QrCP

I disagree because rape barely ever even gets to court. I know from experience (people very close to me) who were raped, and the "justice system" is too much of a wall.

One girl went to the police to try and explain what happened, but she was required to "explain the details" and it was too painful for her. She tried again twice more, but each time she couldn't "provide sufficient evidence". The police said "why didn't you leave his place?". The reason was that she was in an absolutely terrible state of mind, really suicidal, and went to his place for support and he took advantage of her and raped her. She was there for support, that's why she didn't leave. The incident completely shook her up and she doesn't even have any memories of the three weeks that followed that day. How is she supposed to "provide evidence of rape" to court? Anyway, after the third attempt at talking to police, there's a policy that you don't get any more chances so the case was dropped forever.

Rapists get away far too easily. Court isn't the answer.

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/11/16 14:09

What do you propose we change? There is no other systematic way to deal with that. If I were her I wouldn't want to be treated like I have no responsibility or free will.

If anecdotes are worth sharing, I know a guy who went to jail for 4 years because this "believe the victim" mentality allowed someone resentful to mess up his life. It will only become more common if we put so much faith in people.

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/11/16 14:10

That looks more like an argument to revise trial proceedings rather than abolish them altogether. I mean, the alternative is either immediate imprisonment on a vague suspicion or relying on sympathetic vigilantes.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/11/16 14:55

https://pastebin.com/RucJdyyM

@Hachi1
What should we do instead? Just instantly give the accused the long di,k of the law? We have due process for a reason. I cannot imagine how painful it must be for women to recall a rape, but the accused also has rights to. If we took every allegation as if the man is definitely guilty, it gives women power to screw over someone they dont like by lying that he ra,ped her. Also, what if a rape victim cannot identify the ra,pist? Do we throw every potential suspect in prison just to make sure the real perpetrator is locked up? In your example, the situation was handled poorly, and I feel horrible for the woman who was ra,ped.

Let me be clear: UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES IS IT ACCEPTABLE TO PUNISH AN INNOCENT MAN FOR A CRIME HE DID NOT COMMIT. Period. This is one of the fundamental points of our country and our court system, and your proposal undermines all of it. Due process exists for a reason, and we must uphold it. Minsheme is right. Give someone an inch, they'll take a mile. There will always be human garbage trying to fuck over men they dont like by abusing the court system, and throwing someone away forever just over an unproven accusation will only give them more power. It's happening already on college campuses.

I'm open to a proposal that would work, but just throwing someone in jail over an accusation is not the answer.

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/11/16 23:44

We're using a lot of "he raped her" when it also goes the other way around. And it's far more difficult for a man to accuse a woman of rape because of the stereotypes that "men are always looking for sex" and " women are always weak and innocent".

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/11/17 11:48

@Draco
It's hard to find a balance between due process for everyone and giving victims the justice they deserve. When the defendent is assumed innocent until proven guilty, an inability to prove him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt means that he is innocent in the eyes of the law. While its not perfect, it's certianly better than convicting based on an unproven accusation.

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/11/18 12:40

My question to you still stands, AD.
Is there any topic you actually care about? Not just something you think would start a debate. Maybe something you personally have a stake in?

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/11/18 14:21

@Skyk
Climate change, date formats, guns, Trump, immigration, healthcare, metric vs imperial

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/11/18 16:13

I don't understand that argument, "you are not actually passionate about this". This reinforces the fact that people tend to only care about issues that they have experienced / been affected by. Should decisions on those issues only be decided by the ones who happened to experience it? In my opinion, if anything, people who haven't experienced it should decide. It's a great idea to discuss issues that you don't have an emotional attachment to.

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/11/18 17:56

@Minsheme
Amazingdude has said on multiple occasions that he wants to debate for the sake of maintaining a debate. That sort of motive, by nature, leads to pointless bad-faith arguments

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/11/18 23:01

@skyk
Why bad faith? I understand that amazingdude proposes arguments just for the sake of arguing, but can't it be that he wants productive, stimulating discussions and to hear other perspectives? What would be an authentic way for people to start those topics on here? Should it only be by people who are stricken by or involved in those issues? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm really not sure if/why it's bad to start discussions that way. If we are focused on people's motives, egos (their personal relation to the issues), etc then I think it would become identitarian.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/11/19 03:56

I argue for the purpose of arguing. Its fun. Doesnt mean its in "bad faith" or I cant be passionate about it.
Im passionate about climate change. I only argued just for the sake of arguing.

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/11/19 04:19

@Minsheme & AD

"Arguing in bad faith" is when the goal of your argument is contextualized within the debate itself rather than in the subject of it.

For example, a "bad faith" argument could be if you're arguing in order to "win" the debate, regardless of whether or not you actually believe that the side you've chosen or the points you're making are correct. If your initial goal is to have a prolonged debate, by definition your arguments will be in bad faith.

I'm not saying you have to personally have had your life ruined by whatever you're talking about, but you shouldn't start a debate unless you actually intend to convince the other people involved or have yourself convinced by them.

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/11/19 05:10

@skyk
I don't think winning an argument means anything but I will present beliefs I don't personally hold for the sake of devil's advocate and challenging people. You could call that bad faith. I don't expect anyone to have their mind changed, but to explain their beliefs on a more and more elemental level - make a more and more robust argument for themselves as they're challenged as much as possible - then I can decide if it makes sense to me.
Most of what I learn from discussions/arguments is what other people believe and why. I think it's a great idea to discuss like you're a ghost / non-existent person.

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/11/19 06:17

Presenting beliefs that you don't actually believe in is literally the definition of a "bad faith argument".

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/11/19 06:51

Arguing in bad faith is only a problem if there's a specific important point to the debate that bad faith would undermine. Frankly, I'd be surprised if anybody here was deeply involved in city-level policy. If the point is personal growth through changing and refining one's core values then why not?

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/11/19 06:55

If your arguments aren't things you believe, and you don't expect anyone else to believe them, then the point is not "personal growth through changing and refining one's core values", it's intellectual one-upmanship.

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/11/19 07:22

Same thing, animal minds need some kind of goal or opponent to grow in response to and overcome. It's just more productive to compete against one another for mutual benefit than to stagnate alone. Similar systems of challenge leading to growth and isolation leading to stagnation are evident all over the world at every point in history.

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/11/19 08:34

@TK

Show me a peer-reviewed article with evidence that humans are evolved to grow by having pointless arguments to make themselves look smart, and I'll agree that bad-faith arguments are adaptively beneficial.

Socrates is one of the most classic examples of an individual who challenged people intellectually through debate to promote the progress of human knowledge. He didn't just go up to people and say "what's a good topic to debate?", he picked topics of extreme importance to both sides of the argument and their society in general, and then challenged deep-seated concepts through intense investigation. In fact, he actually got a bit too serious in his choice of topics, and was killed by the government because of it.

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amazіngdude				#aJcMiLNA 2017/11/19 09:02

I believe in everything I argue. I just argue for fun. You cant change minds over the internet.

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/11/19 11:03

"one-upmanship" how? not writing with your ego/passions involved is the opposite of wanting to best anyone.

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/11/19 11:04

@skyk
Evolution is literally called "survival of the fittest" and you're asking me for proof that competition is a requirement?
Also if the debates serves a purpose than it can't be called pointless, as long as somebody feels like they're growing I call it a success.

@amazingdude
Not totally true, I changed your opinion about the safety of nuclear energy and I've honestly never put much thought into the specifics of immigration law until a few months ago.

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/11/19 11:17

"Fittest" means the one who best fits their habitat, not "fit" as in strong. Natural selection only applies to a trait if the trait gives a substantial benefit to survival and reproduction, and wasting energy trying to prove intelligence without actually making progress toward a solution is certainly not adaptive in that regard. As a trait, it only exists because human society has reached a point where natural selection no longer applies.

And what purpose exactly do these debate serve? Amazingdude said they're for fun. If they're only meant to be recreational, then I guess they do serve their purpose, but they sure aren't promoting human evolution.

@minsheme
Do you honestly believe Amazingdude asking people to debate him has nothing to do with ego?

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READ VAR("A")[0]		#1CfotduJ 2017/11/19 13:24

Looks like he got the debate he was asking for lol.

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/11/19 13:32

That's because this IS something I actually care about.

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/11/19 14:35

Natural selection totally applies to human society, just not on an individual level. It was the key concept behind every conflict leading up to the balancing act of M.A.D. and all the proxy wars therein.

I can't speak for anybody else but I've been doing this for several years and the most valuable thing I've gotten from it is a glimpse of different perspectives that I can leverage for a greater understanding of "non-natural" sciences like politics and economics.

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/11/19 17:05

@skyk
It's an appeal to motive, but I don't see why it matters even if it's true. To me it implies you want to one-up someone but want arguments to have an honour code. Whether we give authentic arguments or not, you either recognise something as challenging / informative or not.

To me there will always be social Darwinism. What we have now is dysgenic, but that just means we "avoided" selection by displacing its ills. Allowing non-contributing, draining people to live is just sweeping the problem under the rug (the problem of being burdened to get rid of them). Something will counterbalance the fact that this tries to destroy all need for hierarchies of skill/strength/intelligence. Either weakness is punished/ended or the entire ecosystem suffers perniciously.

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/11/20 01:00

https://pastebin.com/YW3iehfB

@TK
what you've just said is actually a textbook example of a bad faith argument. Your statement that natural selection applies to human society on a macro level, whether or not it's actually true, has nothing to do with the original statement you were trying to make. It has no relation to whether or not certain forms of debate *between individuals* is beneficial, and does nothing to actually approach a conclusion to the original argument. When a person enters a debate with the intention to "win" it, more often than not they bring up irrelevant arguments that do nothing but derail the whole subject.

@Minsheme

You were the one who brought up motive in the first place, if motive doesn't matter.

Your point about social darwinism is very naive. It ignores the point that net altruistic behavior is actually more beneficial to a population than hierarchical strength is for the individual. Community altruism is, in fact, one of the most significant principles in the development of the human race, with strong evidence showing that individuals you may consider "weak" were supported in communities as far back as the paleolithic era. For example, the remains of many individuals have been found to indicate that they lived among communities for decades with disabilities preventing them from hunting.

Again, this is just a tangent from the actual discussion, but I'm willing to take the time to explain it because I've spent many years studying the evolution of behaviour, so I personally dislike the so-called concept of "social darwinism" being used against the "weak".

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/11/20 04:44

I think you misunderstood what I was going for, I was agreeing that natural selection was no longer applying to individuals because human social structures redirect what would otherwise be a fatal cost. But it's still very much a part of our collective thought process because basically every war has been fought in an effort to gain the loser's resources or to keep a predatory state from getting too powerful. To that end we've "evolved" sticks to hit the enemy, armor to protect against the enemy's sticks, sharper sticks, harder armor, etc. Any state that didn't follow along was inevitably conquered by another that did. And because it's part of our thought process I figure it can be harnessed in another, less violent way- such as debate- to advance the individual, because that particular niche isn't currently filled otherwise.

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/11/20 04:52

Where did I bring up motive? It implies I care about someone's character. I don't think I brought up anything new, you were talking about whether or not AD "cares" so I addressed that.

No one prior to the last few centuries had an enforced, principled reason like "right to life". It's also different now because we breed and facilitate empty vessels who live to suffer, as well as keep them alive.

Only family/partners care about them, not community. It is now the community who suffers so that this person can live a drifting, pointless life.

What are some examples of people who were unable to contribute (yet receiving reward as if they did) being beneficial for a community? Is this about some kind of moral fabric? And how did they contribute without hunting?

All human achievement and all culture comes from someone climbing a dominance hierarchy. What is there to do in life for people who don't serve a role in these hierarchies anyway?

If a society is truly in a state of cooperation, then as an individual I stand to gain even more than before by taking the selfish, exploitative route.

================================================== {Topic shift 12}

Popscat39				#wcvdsEaB 2017/11/23 09:40

King Kentucky, please don't curse. There are kids that play this game. But to say what I came for, thanks guys, I was able to make it send. Turns out, you need to wait for 2 comments to come after your 2 comments.

So am I a terrible person for not wanting people cursing on a website that kids play on? You don't really have a leg to stand on. Please just don't do it. Even 100bit, where people argued about Nazism and Swastikas, nobody cursed.

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Shadow_Master86			#NCcaJoit 2017/11/23 11:15

i dont mind saying shit, fuck, or bitch so im on kk's side. sorry

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Kek						#8J7PPYd0 2017/11/23 13:19

So you'd rather people talk about Nazism than drop an F bomb? Come on dude

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/11/23 13:48

Please don't do either.

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βBETA					#0rob4al8 2017/11/24 01:09

*rubbing hands together* Where is this going?

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Popscat39				#wcvdsEaB 2017/11/24 01:54

I apologize, I should've given you the backstory. Saturn500, one of the users, was accusing people of antisemitism because of Happy Merchants that they were drawing. Regardless of this argument, they were polite and never cursed. However, Saturn500 started to lose his cool after a while. Nobody was saying Nazism was right, but they WERE saying that Happy Merchants aren't antisemitic.

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Tyne and wear			#5GBDuOyX 2017/11/24 07:04

100 bit has basically crashed and burned.

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Popscat39				#LkqlJljp 2017/11/24 10:33

Tyne and Wear, It's definitely gotten better. Saturn500 has left, people are destroying the Happy Merchants.

Now to KK. I'd like to point out the fact that you used curse words REGARDLESS of this line. "Use appropriate expressions." Not to mention, I've been respecting you the entire time, and what do you do? go out of your way to curse me out in 100bit.

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Shadow_Master86			#NCcaJoit 2017/11/24 12:05

ok yeah me cussing was my fault and im sorry. i should have been better behaved and i have adhd and so it got control of me and made me write that.

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King Kentucky			#M23kwciU 2017/11/24 12:59

not cussing doesn't mean you're respecting me tf

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Popscat39				#LkqlJljp 2017/11/25 00:46

>I apologize
>King Kentucky, please don't curse.
>Please just don't do it.
I'm so disrespectful.

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King Kentucky			#M23kwciU 2017/11/25 01:59

<Popscat, you gave me attention
<You are fu.cked
<I do accept your apology though.
You are indeed.

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/11/25 05:40

Regardless of how much you respect each other individually, please show general consideration for the members of the comment boards who are uncomfortable with cursing, particularly the younger ones.

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Popscat39				#LkqlJljp 2017/11/25 05:56

THANKS skyk, at least someone has a brain. I've given up trying to stay calm against KK. Also, that last line was a crazy thing called sarcasm.

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ChainReactionGuy		#hXuTB7mO 2017/11/25 13:03

I installed a profanity filter, so that I can't see any swear words people post. I can only see asterisks if people post "fuck", "shit",etc.

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King Kentucky			#M23kwciU 2017/11/25 14:19

honestly, in two or three more years (idk how old yall are), yall aint gonna give a damn about swear words

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/11/25 23:24

I wrote a longwinded comment about this but thought it wasn't worth posting. Children will experience cussing if they want it. Suppressing it (rather than giving them an up front reason not to do it) will probably make them more curious. That being said, it's insane to let children use unrestricted internet, the same as letting them associate with (or be) a bad apple. The principle you're making is "expose them to all the worst filth since there's a chance they'll encounter it anyway".

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Popscat39				#LkqlJljp 2017/11/26 01:52

@Minsheme
I've been reading the archive of many comments and there was a 2nd grader (He said it) commenting there. Kid's are naive, so they'll think,"Oh, that's fine for me to say?" and say it. I know 100% that there are rules against profanity in elementary school and that it's enforced because I've watched the consequences of cursing (It wasn't me, shut up). I have proof that there are really young kids in the comments. Not to mention, IF YOU SAID IT, you'd be reported immediately by other students because they themselves thought that they were wrong. Secondary school is where it relaxes on the rules and the foodgates release, but gaiv, the 2nd grader, still had 5 years until that time. My personal rule is, let them learn them, but don't let them say it.

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READ VAR("A")[0]		#Cf6sIWc6 2017/11/26 02:28

Does anyone know the list of blocked words in the comments? Is it the same as in the game?

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Hachi1					#pdDlVqmc 2017/11/26 04:45

@READ
nah the blocked words are slightly different. In the game you can't type email addresses or website addresses, but you can in the comments.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/11/26 10:55

Honestly, people who get so worked up about swearing are fucking dumb. Kids hear it anyway nowadays, and its not hard to google it
UH2V, Grow up. You dont need a filter to block out words.

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Σsigma					#dGUQeyap 2017/11/26 11:33

Also, I've recently realized that the only thing that makes bad words bad is that they are considered bad by society. If we loosen our strain on the meaning of bad words, there's no reason we shouldn't let children hear/use them because they wouldn't be negative anymore. Think about it: there's nothing actually wrong with using them say, in an empty room, right? In fact, I've heard that cursing helps relieve stress and frustration, and that's a much better outlet than violence, for example.

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/11/26 11:57

You could say that aside from social constructs, there's nothing inherently wrong with not bathing, or sleeping around with countless people. They can both easily be done without negative consequences. But they are not independent of dangerous/unhealthy lifestyle.

The very reason that cursing relieves stress is that it's "reserved" for dire situations. It's a social construct that makes it effective at relieving stress. There is no way to "normalise" it, because its only use is the fact that it's regarded poorly.

Being civilised in general is a social construct, we just do it because we are future-oriented enough to know that being civilised is better than being impulsive animals. Not cursing shows restraint which is civilised/decent.

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ChainReactionGuy		#hXuTB7mO 2017/11/27 02:59

https://pastebin.com/T40kpiCp

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/11/27 15:05

I noticed a comment (#l0aS2Xd2 2017/11/22 01:55) mentioning comment removals.
What were the removed comments about? Moderation is almost nonexistant here.

@UH2V
Thats the fault of all censors. Blocking "ass" makes it impossible to say "grass", for example. The simple solution is to check if there is a space before and after a censored word, but many censors dont employ it. Personally, I'm against word censors, as all it does is make kids curious about what the word means.

I first learned what cum was when I was playing a game and typed "Cum 2 my place 4 goldz!!", only to have it censored. Ironically, a censor taught me about a word it was supposed to protect me against.

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Dracobo					#iWOBESYY 2017/11/27 23:21

@Minsheme
I didn't mean that a bad word's purpose was to relieve stress. I'm saying that it can be used to do that at the moment, but once it becomes a "regular word", either no one will care enough to say it or people will say it because it's "one of those things you say" in that situation. Either way, there's nothing wrong with it. And even the latter might not live long.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/11/28 13:00

@Draco
Yup. Meaning is determinied by use, not the dictionary. Look at how black people reclaimed the n word. Then we'll just find another offensive word, and so on. Its language evolution.

New archives!
Part 1:https://pastebin.com/Sm2Actvf
Part 2:https://pastebin.com/mmAXKVhC

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{No relevant response}

================================================== {Topic shift 13}

amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/11/30 15:15

Anything left to debate, or did it die out this time?
Nah, lets talk about Healthcare now. Obamacare was a failure.

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/11/30 15:16

Does the soul exist?

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Σsigma					#dGUQeyap 2017/11/30 15:18

I don't see why it would.

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/11/30 15:32

I think it's made out of bosons n sheeit

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/11/30 16:49

Depends on your definition, there's obviously a body of contextual sensory information that gets stored "somewhere" in the brain that can be clearly remembered decades after first being compiled despite the original "machinery" of the brain having long since been replaced by other cells, if that's a soul then which is the important part? The memory itself or the cells that contain it? Both? I'd say just the memory but that raises disturbing questions about dementia and other memory-affecting illnesses like "Would I be less of a person if I had this?"

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/12/01 06:34

@TK
That's assuming that "soul" is equivalent to "memory" or "identity", which I don't think is entirely true. I think a soul is the source of one's subjective experience. If you look into the explanatory gap (AKA the "hard question of consciousness"), you'll see more about why a fully material explanation isn't yet complete.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/12/01 08:32

The soul does not exist. When you die, you die. Nothing more to it.

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/12/01 08:57

How do you know?

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/12/01 10:11

Your personality dies, it's unknown what happens to your consciousness.

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/12/01 12:25

@Minsheme
Good to keep in mind that distinction.

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Coriander95				#YKJFzRJL 2017/12/01 13:29

I am depressed. I do not know what to do. I am going to kill myself on April 24th 2017. Any suggestions as to why I should be alive?

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King Kentucky			#M23kwciU 2017/12/01 13:40

For one, April 24th has already passed. Unless, you're from the future and your time machine messed up without you realized it, and you believe it is April 23rd. Is that it? That must be it; I don't know why I asked.

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Choconyan				#IJ3CAMHm 2017/12/01 14:10

How did this come to talkin about death and suicide what did i miss

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/12/01 15:06

https://pastebin.com/TWU8mZwB

@Coriander95
Maybe you shouldnt use internet explorer to post your comments.

@Minsheme
What I believes happen is that you just cease to exist. The chemical processes that run your brain stop when you die, as you rot to death. I assume it would be like a permanent, dreamless sleep, like before you were born. I have no way to know however, I'm just going based on prior experience (before I was born)

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/12/01 15:07

The fact that you have no memory prior to your birth doesn't prove that there's no such thing as an immaterial consciousness.

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/12/02 03:02

@amazingdude
I would agree, but we don't know what consciousness is or whether or not it's a material thing.

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/12/02 06:10

I feel like if there was a section of the brain that was itself the consciousness instead of a complicated tangle of neurons throughout, we would have found the consciousness by now. It can't be a material object. What happens when we die? Does it just sit there? Material things can't pass through other material things. I guess if skyk is right, consciousness is material, because our subjective experience isn't anything more than what the rest of the brain is.

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/12/02 07:11

Subjective experience may not be a material element of the brain. The "philosophical zombie" thought experiment is an interesting investigation of this.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/12/02 12:53

@Minsheme
What would consiousness be other than a material thing? Energy? In that case, when you die, you just stop existing, because that energy leaves the body. I just dont see how anything except matter, particles, or energy can result in consiousness

Or its some weird ass quantum physics shit.

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/12/02 16:33

https://pastebin.com/Szbkm0DP

It may exist in a form totally unknown to contemporary science, for all we know. All we know for now is that it isn't measurable by any conventional means.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_problem_of_consciousness

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/12/02 21:48

I don't really get how seeing in color is such a huge problem for understanding consciousness. I mean, color more or less corresponds to specific wavelengths of light but there's no reason to think anyone is really seeing the same colors corresponding to those wavelengths. Why wouldn't the brain just fabricate an obvious difference between high frequencies like "blue" and low frequencies like "red" where none would otherwise exist?

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danstroyer				#ODqTK59b 2017/12/03 00:11

so everybody is contemplating life now.....

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/12/03 04:24

@TK
The issue is the difference between the base sensory input of the light, and the subjective experience of color. Of course, color is just a single example.

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/12/03 09:53

I only read pretty much the introduction to the philosophical zombie, but I don't understand why we aren't all philosophical zombies. I guess that's because I believe that there is nothing but material stuff up there.

>color
It's a very difficult question to answer (obviously), but how we perceive things in general is a product of evolution. Evolution gave us the ability to differentiate between two types of things via a sense. How do they appear to the senser? It could be anything, they just have to be different. And lo, perception was born.

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/12/03 10:17

@Dracobot
The fact that you have your own individual and subjective perception (which only you know is true) is proof (to only yourself) that you are not a philosophical zombie. If everyone was a p-zombie, there would be no difference between how each person sees colour, because no one would "see" colour, their bodies would just chemically respond to different wavelengths of light with no subjective experience of it.

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/12/03 12:08

About p-zombies: you could say that, since everyone has about the same composition as you (as far as you know) and since they show self-awareness through things like p-zombies and cogito ergo sum, it's highly likely they're self-conscious.

I don't know this topic very well. To me, there are two ways to negate the above: prove that your perception is proof of your consciousness (everyone else's is unprovable) or prove that there is universal consciousness (in a way, that is as if no one has a be-all-end-all consciousness with a lifespan). I'm interested what you guys think of that.

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/12/03 22:35

@skyk
Still seems like a non-problem to me. Inputs from the nerves are basically in binary with firing/nonfiring states, subconscious brain receives and edits inputs into an immediately understandable suite of sights/sounds/touches/etc based on relative intensity of signals, conscious mind has an experience and acts accordingly.

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/12/04 03:13

@TK
That explanation suffers from the homunculus fallacy of infinite regress. By treating the "conscious mind" as a distinct entity that experiences things based on the input from the brain, you don't solve the hard problem, you just shrink it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homunculus_argument

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/12/04 04:13

This is a good video about how consciousness creates reality, and the hurdles in defining an objective material reality. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8n5GD69wFOA

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/12/04 07:31

@skyk
The page you cited acknowledges that it's only infinitely regressive if there's nothing like a soul to ground it. Which brings us back to the original argument of whether one's body of memories and opinions counts as a soul- I still think it does.

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/12/04 07:51

It says that it's only infinitely regressive if there's nothing like an *immaterial* soul to ground it. You can't just say that the brain is the soul to solve the problem unless you can somehow argue how the brain can have subjective experience without regression.

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/12/04 14:52

@skyk
That's the illusion. I could do the same thing to your argument: if it's "proof", to what is it actually proving? I am a thing, making appropriate reactions to you. My senses are driving these reactions. Sight is just a different form of touch (any sense is a form of any other sense, but touch is the most basic to me). Perception isn't really anything other than the detection of differences. Red is "red" to me because it's what my brain assigned to it. Your brain, since your first moments and/or genetic makeup are different than mine, probably assigned a different interpretation, one that might be the same as what I understand to be blue, or some color I've never experienced before.

Machines (and I guess all things in general) detect differences, so they experience individual perceptions, but they don't have a soul (unless you go by your definition, in which case I guess they do in a way that isn't familiar to us).

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/12/04 15:12

@Dracobot
I am a neuroscientist. I am well aware of the material mechanisms between external stimuli and a change of behaviour, but these steps at no point include an explanation for subjective experience. You are correct that machines react physically to their environment, and in fact I have no way of knowing whether or not machines, or other living things for that matter, have consciousness. All I know is that I do have a consciousness which cannot explainably be reduced to the chemical reactions that drive my behaviour, even if it is clearly linked to it. For the sake of this discussion, I can assume that you have a consciousness that is fundamentally similar, if different in experience, or I can imagine that you don't, and that all of your actions are mere chemical responses, but I have no way to materially explain the difference between the two potential states. Do you?

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King Kentucky			#M23kwciU 2017/12/04 15:13

oh skyk, if youre a neuroscientist, then im a human

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/12/04 15:25

You want me to tell you about α-synuclein genes' role in sporadic Parkinson's disease or something?

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LK						#K0p4mGlm 2017/12/05 03:37

Skyk, you can't tell me what I already know. I mean you can but there's little benefit

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Σsigma					#dGUQeyap 2017/12/05 12:59

@skyk
https://pastebin.com/8EAzxak3

@skyk
You realize you're using your brain (do you agree that cognitivity is fully material?) to explain subjective experience, right? Can something like that explain it? I don't think so. It's like trying to comprehend higher-dimensional geometry; the brain is a three-dimensional object, so good luck with that.

"these steps at no point include an explanation for subjective experience."
I'm tempted to say that there is no "subjective experience" at all, but that may be pushing it a bit. Like I said, it's an illusion. I'm just thinking that you're making the assumption that there is actually something experiencing it when there might not be. You say it doesn't explain it, I think it makes perfect sense. I'm not really sure how else to say it.

"All I know is that I do have a consciousness which cannot explainably be reduced to the chemical reactions that drive my behaviour, even if it is clearly linked to it."
Be careful with the word "know". Remember the discussion about that? And this time I think it's possible you're wrong. You said it's impossible to prove, and I understand that, but how do you *know* it's not an illusion? You have a working knowledge of the brain. If you knew that everything was material, you would have said so. If you knew that there was something like a functioning consciousness, you would have said so. In both cases, we would no longer be having this discussion and you would be super rich and famous for having solved one of the toughest questions of all time. But you don't truly know. Like the rest of us, all you have to work with is what you are given, but if you question even that, you no longer have anything and know nothing. Based on what I have been given, I believe that our understanding of a consciousness is impossible because for thousands of years we have yet to find evidence for it other than "I think, therefore I am". Because of that, it makes sense to us that a consciousness somehow exists, so we perpetuate that belief (but we all know what happens to some traditional beliefs as scientific knowledge expands). I've always been a "question ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING" type of person (different than a cynic, because I do believe that some things are true after carefully weighing their validity), and maybe you are too, so from the two options of whether or not a consciousness exists in our minds, I think it's more likely that it doesn't.

"I have no way to materially explain the difference between the two potential states. Do you?"
To that I say, definitely not. "Definitely" because you imply that there is no material difference between the two before you ask the question. If I understand correctly, I can reword your question to be "Can you explain what is different between material and not material in terms of materiality?" Obviously the answer is "no" because it is impossible to compare a characteristic that one by definition does not have.

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/12/05 14:23

Remember that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The fact that there's no evidence for consciousness (or rather, that consciousness is self-evident only within an individual) only indicates that it is not measurable by any conventional means. I am easily aware of my own consciousness, because awareness IS consciousness. Even if everything I experience can conceivably be illusionary, the one thing that is impossible to deny is the fundamental experience itself.

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/12/06 00:18

But it suggests it more than when you're not looking for it at all. I know that there is a possibility that it could exist. Maybe it's stronger than I realize. It's just my judgment on the evidence that I know of.

I think of awareness as the detection of differences, so according to that statement that is consciousness to me, and that means we are no different than a regular object.

Ah, I knew you were going to say something about the illusion. It's not a great word to use, but it's the best that I have. What I'm saying is when you think about your detection of differences, you can't explain it, so you try to use something immeasurable to do so, and as that establishes your belief, it makes more and more sense to you. When you think of a subjective experience, you have a choice in sense. Do you choose sight? It's tough to understand what I'm saying when you're using sight to comprehend it because sight is everything to you (if you're blind, I apologize). You experience a detection of differences. Your mind interprets the information in a very specific way. That is the perception, and it makes you think that there's something else going on other than the detection of differences.

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Jackphantomhive			#kAV2Q8Tt 2017/12/06 07:34

You guys are still going at this? It's getting a bit pathetic really,

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/12/06 07:48

No one cares what you think, nerd.

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/12/06 09:52

@Jackphantomhive
What do you mean? It's fun. I'm not debating for the sake of prolonging it. I'm debating because I have an opposing beliefs to skyk's and I choose to share my argument because it's more entertaining than not saying anything.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/12/07 13:58

@Skyk
For all we know, we might just be consious computers simulating life forms.

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/12/07 14:11

@amazingdude
What does that prove?

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danstroyer				#YcuLxC9z 2017/12/08 00:59

I for one think we are not computers because if we were computers would we bleed? computers might like bleed sparks or whatever or circuts but not blood.
oh I cant believe I started running in this rediculus arguement

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ThePowderSmith			#VYQpyVtv 2017/12/08 01:32

Unless we are computer programs in a huge simulation.

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/12/08 05:27

@danstroyer
It's possible, albeit unlikely, that our perception of our bodies, including blood, is simulated by some complex computer system.

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danstroyer				#2uWDQjDV 2017/12/08 06:18

please no more physics and contemplating life and argueing about stuff my brain hurts cant you use all of those smarts and build stuff on scratch like a really complicated something or other

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/12/08 13:25

@danstroyer
Don't think of a literal computer when you think of one. A computer is technically "something that computes". We have organs all around our body that serve the purpose of transmitting information. Therefore, we are computers in that sense. We're like "natural computers".

Sidenote: before computers as we know them were big, "computers" meant people who performed a lot of calculations for a living. It's easy to see how the meaning transferred.

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amazingdude					#padtckOV 2017/12/08 13:56

We have no way to prove we are not living in a simulation.

New archives as of today
Part 1: https://pastebin.com/kVuK6exX
Part 2: https://pastebin.com/v70JJ8Yj

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{No relevant response}

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/12/11 02:50

So whats the debate topic now?

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danstroyer				#K96cFkJd 2017/12/11 03:15

not another debate |-.-|
srsly not again im |||||
tired of it guys no|O_O|
more debate im sick|>_<|
of it debate=ughhhh|X_X|
check out my totem |^_^|

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OmegaPirate				#yuNU8bWX 2017/12/11 06:02

Can we debate on Donald since I left the Discord and regret ever joining it?

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/12/11 09:40

Trump is one of the greatest presidents in the history of the US.

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xavier27				#nEYb4mUG 2017/12/11 10:12

And it's the most stupid of all president of all time of all country.

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Tyne and wear			#5GBDuOyX 2017/12/11 20:24

I lost track of the existential crisis debate after a while, although creds for having an actual, intelligent debate this time round. I guess we could do Trump as a debate topic.

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OmegaPirate				#yuNU8bWX 2017/12/12 08:47

As for the debate, I had a government class this term and Trump was a common theme in terms of current topics. He seems to know what he's doing but holy hell is it causing controversy everywhere.

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/12/12 10:19

He's too steeped in corporatist interests and blatant nepotism for my liking; like that tax cut that specifically only applied to golf course owners, yeah that's "draining the swamp" alright, right into his bank account

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/12/12 12:13

Trump isnt controversial, it's just liberals crying at everything he does, good or bad. I agree with most of what Trump does (excpet net neutrality, but everyone who uses the internet agrees with me on this). I do love my president taking a hard stand against North Korea, corruption, and undoing all the crap that Obama did.

@TK
The tax plan cuts taxes for EVERYONE, not just walmart and himself. Do the research.
Trump isn't owned by corporarions. If anything, he's hugely against corporate rule of government. And how exactly is he nepotistic? Last I checked, every president nominated cabinet members of his own party.

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/12/12 12:31

The Republican tax plan will hugely increase taxes for graduate students by categorizing tuition waivers as income for the student, despite them not actually giving any money to the student.

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/12/12 14:11

What would you suggest we talk about, then?
And please nothing vague like current uploads in general.

@amazingdude
Isn't that technically the definition of "controversial", even if it is overreacting? A large chunk of the population is comprised of liberals.

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King Kentucky			#M23kwciU 2017/12/12 15:12

I, for one, love my President Mr. Garrison.

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/12/12 23:51

>Promises to get money out of politics while campaigning as a part of the typical "down to earth country boy" strategy the GOP favors
>All but one of his original staff picks are CEOs and other high-level executives

Sure, I guess it makes sense that somebody capable of paying a corporate bribe wouldn't be likely to accept the same amount of money. But that doesn't mean they're making decisions without the intention to benefit from the outcomes once they're out of office- such our good friend and winner of 2017's "Most Punchable Face" award Mr. Ajit Pai.

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Tyne and wear			#5GBDuOyX 2017/12/12 23:51

I'd be weary of taking a hardline approach against NK. Any potential war or even destabilisation of the North Korean regime will have disastrous consequences for the region as a whole.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/12/13 12:54

I say we nuke north korea NOW. Its time we show those fu,ckers what happens when you threaten the most powerful nation in human history. We'd easily wipe them off the map before they get their first nuke to the launchpad.

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skyk					#vSbAiI0H 2017/12/13 13:06

That would kill hundreds of thousands of people, the majority of them completely innocent.

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/12/13 13:07

It's their buffer against Japan, a historically hostile conqueror that from their perspective has a completely inexplicable alliance with the US that China's been wanting since Russia turned out to be just another western imperialist out for their resources.

North Korea isn't really important to China, the wall of potential death is important. If the DPRK ceases to exist they lose their invasion insurance, but if it strikes out then it's too close to really control because they haven't bothered to help out their supposed ally in over 50 years of poverty and there's no goodwill to cash in on.

The sudden nuclear theme to the tension just means they're treating the DPRK like a rabid dog loose in their yard that's just too distracted by a supposedly reformed criminal neighbor and his naive and somewhat rude friend from across town to notice their doggy door.

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Dracobot				#iWOBESYY 2017/12/13 14:12

And it isn't just like pouring water on an anthill. You could argue the ethics behind it, but with each person there's a life, a family, and dreams along with the potential to do really good things for the world like (that's right, it's going to be said yet again) curing cancer.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/12/13 14:42

@Skyk
Thats just the crime you have to pay to get rid of a danger to the whole world. People these days are such pu,ssies. Had we not dropped the bombs on Japan, the war would have been much worse. Sometimes innocent people get in the way of conflict. Its called war, and its happened thousands of times before.

@TK
A US terroritory would act as a buffer state they see NK as right now.

@Draco
Yeah, pouring water on a flaming anthill filled with bombs. You'll kill some ants in the process, but its necessary for world peace.

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King Kentucky			#M23kwciU 2017/12/13 14:54

"flaming anthill filled with bombs"
i mean, if ants had bombs they'd be tiny bombs and wouldn't really have an impact on us. also ants arent really affecting world peace

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LB85					#vf65QncI 2017/12/13 15:28

@Amazingdude
Nuke can cause so much radiation...I dont want other countries to affected by it...Maybe some other strong bombs without radiaton could do the trick...

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/12/13 16:46

@amazingdude
No it wouldn't, because our relations are too close with their on-again-off-again enemy for China to trust that we wouldn't just let our friends annex a coal mine on the mainland if they'd asked nicely enough. Also the era of nukes and total war seems to be just about approaching it's end in the face of assassination-drone swarms. Why bother completely destroying the infrastructure of a territory and make it useless for decades when you can just swoop in with kill bots to decapitate the entire chain of command/succession and keep the cost of rebuilding your new property at a minimum?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CO6M2HsoIA


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Tyne and wear			#n8EflRcW 2017/12/13 21:25

What happens if you raze North Korea to the ground with nukes:

A full-blown nuclear reaction is a dramatically disproportionate response to the current threat. You'll have to answer to the entire world for that.

What are you going to do afterwards? You've just reduced a large part of North Korea and a great deal of South Korea too into nuclear wasteland. How are you going to establish order and US control from the anarchy? The US might have the most resources and the best armed forces, but how are you going to get support from the American public. There are better ways of spending this money.

You won't be able to control Jucheist partisans and North Korean sabotage and guerilla fighters. It'll be Berlin 1945 all over again. You won't know for certain that you've destroyed all of their nuclear weapons either.

Finally, congratulations, you've just exposed South Korea, northeastern China and possibly even Japan to the effects of radioactive fallout. I live in northeastern China. Basically you've not only screwed over your worst enemy, you've screwed over 2 important allies and your largest trade partner. This isn't even counting a Chinese response. There are good reasons why nobody has used nuclear weapons since 1945.

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Minsheme				#l0aS2Xd2 2017/12/14 05:04

"support from the american public" implying they are not zombie with no free will

is anyone else here not a normie who's concerned with anti-net-neutrality taking away their 6 hours of netflix a day and thinks that the NK posturing actually means anything. the only significance of NK is their abundance of rare earth, and their willingness to harvest it

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/12/14 06:54

I disapprove of monopolies in general but I'm also confidant that Oregon will just get NN back up and running in short order, all of our reps have been pretty stanch on that position.

Also there's a weird double-hostage-thing going on with NK, it's a human rights issue so we technically "have" to care about Kim decadence in general. But as you've said, they don't actually matter to anyone outside of China, South Korea, and Japan because of their status as China's wall of possible death.

Of course by actually confirming the presence of ICBMs, NK has gone and made themselves important in the most dangerous possible way. Because now if they don't make good on a threat it'll make them look toothless and therefore dismantle the reputation of deadliness that's incentivized China to keep their puppet around, but if they do launch a nuke it's even worse because that puts them squarely from "possible threat" to "clear and present danger". Rational actors on the world stage will ignore the former because frankly, that everyone but themselves, but the latter would see an immediate response because suddenly all of NK's enemies would have to make good on /their/ decades old posturing, and we've all a lot more capability than they do.

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amazingdude				#padtckOV 2017/12/14 15:17

Anyone who uses the internet should support NN. Its common sense. We know what corporations are going to do to the internet, and the government has proven itself successful in its ability to regulate the internet. Though I am for small government, this is an exeption.

@TK
So... what your saying is send in drones to kil the government leaders... and then what? Go in and liberate them? Is this actually cheaper than just dropping a couple nukes from planes? Either way, if NK strikes first, SK would effectively become an island within the day.

@T&W
We dont need to drop tsar bombas on them. A small nuke on pyongyang and their capitol would be enough to show them whats up.

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LB85					#7xtZjAJC 2017/12/14 20:35

Yea...Drop a granade to a box filled with nukes,what could go wrong? Nothing, If you live further away!
Also I bet they have something to prevent drone assasination. It cant be that easy, right?

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Tyne and wear			#5GBDuOyX 2017/12/15 02:54

@amazingdude
How small a bomb are you talking? Most strategic nuclear weapons are in the hundreds to thousands of kilotons. Arguably even worse than your first option. You've basically left all North Korea's military bases, infrastructure and missile facilities untouched. Once they have word that there has been a nuclear strike against them, they will retaliate. Most likely at Japan (South Korea is too close for comfort). How are American troops going to enter and hold North Korea within acceptable losses? Literally all North Korea has done for the past 60 years is prepare for a defensive war against the South. My first, second and third points are still valid. The USA seems to be good at taking down dictatorships, but replacing them with functioning and sustainable governments seems to be a problem for them.

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/12/15 04:33

That last part isn't entirely fair, Iraq's new government was doing well until Obama pulled support and left all the advanced hardware undefended for DAESH to swoop in on. Long-term stability isn't something that can be rushed in less than a decade.

Also while a smaller nuke is generally a worse option than a big one, that's not why. Smaller nuclear ordinances tend to result in more fallout spread, poisoning a much larger area of land as less of it gets pushed from the blast into space.

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Dark Doctor				#UssduMir 2017/12/15 04:40

RIP Net Neutrality...

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/12/15 05:45

@Dark Doctor
Still has to go through Senate and Supreme Court can potentially overrule the decision. Plus even if that all fails, there's nothing stopping individual states from re-implementing it, and if enough do it becomes common law and the FCC loses the power to try this nonsense every year no matter who's in office. Just send your representatives a letter about it before giving up.

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Tyne and wear			#5GBDuOyX 2017/12/15 07:39

@TK
Can you do any elaboration on your second point? I was always under the impression that the largest nukes at the USA's current disposal were only able to reach the stratosphere at their highest. (About 1.5 megatons) From what I've understood, they would have the greatest range and affected area. A 'small' 15 kt bomb would have fallout exclusively contained withing North Korea itself.

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Torture King			#TI3DWoRg 2017/12/15 08:37

The math is a bit (a lot) beyond me but from what I've heard from other people that seem to know the subject better the "optimum" range for completely ruining everyone's lives within a certain area using nuclear hellfire is 200 to 750 kt, that keeps the fallout from reaching the stratosphere where most of it would harmlessly dissipate and depending on how weather patterns work over there would result in various fires and radioactive dust storms roving around and giving out free cancer.

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