No True Tawtsman

[00:23] Arrgy: My mind is absolutely blown at the dedication and skill some of ya'll have
[00:23] Dryhad sheds a single tear for the loss of the casual chain
[00:24] YOJimBOs_LAW: given the 2/day limit on ascending, there's not really much of either involved.
[00:24] yOjImbOS_LAw: I just spend roughly an hour doing a casual run and then run a HCCS script.
[00:25] Tawt Strat: A bunch of people here are that dedicated because they're trying to leaderboard. That shouldn't be a concern for you at this stage.
[00:27] Tawt Strat: Others just like spending most of their spare time on here.
[00:28] Cloud Strife: Even a crappy computer can allow me to have this in a tab so I can throw some one-liners out there.
[00:30] Tawt Strat: But it's probably better if you're trying your best when you aren't in that league yet. Set yooursself daycount goals and work on reducing your turncount.
[00:31] Dryhad: Is this the way you talk in /newbie, Tawt?
[00:31] yOjimboS_lAw: yes.
[00:31] Cloud Strife: Yep.
[00:31] Dryhad: Can't imagine why anyone gets annoyed with you
[00:33] Tawt Strat: Not exactly. I mostly just give them the most basic advice about how to start playing.
[00:34] yojIMBOS_LAw: here, dryhad. [link] https:// pastebin.com/ xBwEaz54
[00:34] Dryhad: Strangely I trust the word of outside observers better than your personal self-assessment
[00:34] Tawt Strat: If someone asks how to do a quest easier or quicker though I will give them that sort of advice.
[00:35] Dryhad: K, thanks. I've already seen how this conversation goes though.
[00:37] Tawt Strat: Yesterday a newbie asked a question and a /new denizen gave an answer that was apparently wrong or he simply said "I think" because he doesn't know and probably never even reads the wiki.
[00:38] Tawt Strat: newbie denizen
[00:38] Dryhad: I would actually prefer to discuss your invocation of the No True Scotsman fallacy in an actual discussion about Scottish nationalism
[00:38] Arrgy: Jesus Christ. Who is this Risktaker guy Slaw?
[00:38] Arrgy: He's mental
[00:38] Dryhad: I seriously think that would be a more fruitful conversation
[00:38] Dryhad: He's Tawt, Arrgy
[00:39] Loathmast: yeah, dryhad sums it up pretty well.
[00:39] Tawt Strat: So, I said what I thought I do know about it and that particular dude seems to dislike me and probably doesn't like me correcting him like that.
[00:40] Tawt Strat: That's my alt.
[00:41] Tawt Strat: I vaguely remember that conversation but fail to see what it has to do with the actual game advice I give in there.
[00:42] yoJimBos_laW: dryhad is correct.
[00:43] Dryhad: It doesn't have anything to do with game advice. It's patently obvious that talking about your game advice is a rhetorical dead end which is why I'd rather discuss even that most dubious of topics
[00:43] Tawt Strat: Are you talking about when I said that posh Scots are really just English?
[00:43] Dryhad: Among other things, yes
[00:44] Tawt Strat: That is actually a line that I stole from an Irvine Welsh novel.
[00:46] Dryhad: Neat
[00:46] Tawt Strat: I tell people what it's like here and what people are like. I live in the city where those novels are set. If you read those novels you would likewise say the characters are mental.
[00:50] Tawt Strat: Historically it was mainly people like David Hume that tried to Anglesise the Scots and in particular Edinburgh. David Hume was a snob and was more famous for writing the history of England at the ti
[00:51] Tawt Strat: *time. He even changed his name so that the English wouldn't mispronounce it.
[00:52] Dryhad: If only Richard had sold the Marches to Scotland to fund his crusader trips, like he wanted to
[00:53] Tawt Strat: I paraphrased a phrase about someone not being Scottish even if they're born here if they're more like an English person.
[00:53] Dryhad: Yes, thank you, I understood that
[00:56] Tawt Strat: I went to primary school with a guy with English parents and he tries very hard to talk Scottish but it's an affectation and he's been doing it for over forty years.
[00:57] Tawt Strat: Take valium for your hangover.
[00:57] Dryhad: Most people talk like the people they grew up around, not like their parents
[00:58] Dryhad definitely doesn't talk like his mother
[00:58] Tawt Strat: Or at least don't just stop heavy drinking without them unless you want detention tremours and the rest of it.
[00:59] Dryhad is honestly not sure if Tawt is talking to him anymore
[01:00] DeaksDeetee: I think he's talking to someone in /newbie, but putting it in the wrong channel.
[01:00] Tawt Strat: That's true but this guy didn't have many friends as a child and they lived in a mansion.
[01:01] Dryhad: "I was talking to this person who may or may not have existed ever, and he just completely ignored everything I said!"
[01:01] Dryhad: "He must have just hated me personally, that's why he didn't take my expert hangover advice"
[01:02] Tawt Strat: Yeah. Sorry. Didn't realise that the alcoholic wasn't actually talkking in here.
[01:03] Tawt Strat: I usually just stick with one channel but sometimes listen to another and forget.
[01:04] Dryhad: I feel like moments like this for /newbie, and in /villa for /games, give me just enough insight into those channels to know that I don't want to be there
[01:04] yOJimBos_laW: is there a term for addiction to discussing substance abuse?
[01:05] YOJIMbOS_LaW: listening to those channels is important for forming opinions about bad people, dryhad.
[01:05] Dryhad: Nah, I do that by watching YouTube videos about MTG Finance
[01:06] Tawt Strat: I sometimes feel glad that they didn't hear me. Not all of my advice is that helpful because sometimes I don't know but try to help anyway.
[01:06] yojimbos_LAW: but think of all the people who pretend to be experts about things they're bad at that you're missing out on, dryhad.
[01:07] Tawt Strat: I'm not sure Slaw but I believe that talking about it repetitively demonstrates psychological addiction.
[01:07] Dryhad: Think about all the people who pretend to be experts on finance and are actual marketting executives
[01:07] Dryhad vomits
[01:07] Stocks Mall Multi: Hi guys
[01:07] Dryhad: If these jerks can get jobs why isn't my degree doing anything?
[01:08] Dryhad: Was I supposed to sell my soul to Ronald Reagan or something?
[01:08] DanceCommander6: fake it until you make it
[01:08] Stocks Mall Multi: Because degrees are just pieces of paper
[01:08] YoJIMBOS_lAw: yes, dryhad.
[01:08] Stocks Mall Multi: Hey, that's what I learned at work
[01:08] Stocks Mall Multi: Fake it until u I
[01:09] Stocks Mall Multi: Make it
[01:09] Stocks Mall Multi: I'm a financial services thiny, I'm sick... I have bronchitis
[01:09] YOJImBos_LAW: mmm...delicious advice from person 'borrowing' money from 'friends' to fund their self-published, mobile, Greek/sci-fi FPS.
[01:10] Stocks Mall Multi: I can't think right now
[01:10] Stocks Mall Multi: Eh no more greek
[01:10] Dryhad: See, this is the problem
[01:10] Stocks Mall Multi: Just robots
[01:11] Tawt Strat: I can give advise about substance abuse problems because I have had them and know many others that have.
[01:11] Dryhad: You aren't going to use your financial services experience to inform your Greeks?
[01:11] Stocks Mall Multi: No jews
[01:11] yoJiMBOS_LAW: I don't think experience implies helpfulness, tawt.
[01:11] Dryhad 's degree is best for making extremely obscure jokes
[01:12] Dryhad: Did you here the one about the small futures contract?
[01:12] Stocks Mall Multi: No
[01:12] Dryhad: Nevermind, it's a little derivative
[01:12] Accodorian: oh man I have no idea what having a job is like
[01:12] Stocks Mall Multi: Lol
[01:12] Stocks Mall Multi: Hey Accodorian
[01:12] Accodorian: hi
[01:13] Stocks Mall Multi: Long time no see, I figured you quit kol
[01:13] Accodorian: haven't played a turn in
[01:13] Stocks Mall Multi: Glad to see you :)
[01:13] Accodorian: 73 days
[01:13] Accodorian: idk why I even have this tab open
[01:13] syi: I've spent some time at corporate family events as a kid. Turned me off faking stuff pernamently. It's not great for my career.
[01:14] DeaksDeetee: Habit? You like the banter? Procrastination? -hic-
[01:14] Accodorian: I look at it for like 5 minutes a week
[01:14] Dryhad: Finance humour, obvs
[01:14] Stocks Mall Multi: Kol?
[01:15] Accodorian: yeah
[01:15] Tawt Strat: Also, many posh Scots go to posh schools and they are like English private schools, so they simply don't mix with anyone that's obviously Scottish.
[01:17] Accodorian: did I miss a conversation about alcoholics or something
[01:18] Dryhad: No
[01:18] Accodorian: ok
[01:18] Accodorian: going to go to bed so I can get up and live in a constant state of disinterest
[01:19] Accodorian: night
[01:19] Accodorian: or morning idk
[01:19] Dryhad: Goodnight
[01:19] Tawt Strat: It's just my opinion that a lot of things that people do to try to be Scottish are affectations and they are like the exageratted Scots that people ridicule abroad for their funny habits.
[01:19] Stocks Mall Multi: Looking to rent a PYEC, pm me pleas
[01:19] Stocks Mall Multi: Meh...
[01:20] Dryhad hands stocks a /trade
[01:20] Stocks Mall Multi grabs it and passes out
[01:20] Stocks Mall Multi: It's hard to breathe /think
[01:21] Tawt Strat: Burns suppers, for example are usually business networking things for the middle classes.
[01:22] Stocks Mall Multi: Middle class is growing again
[01:22] Stocks Mall Multi: We are getting more clients at my office
[01:23] Dryhad: No true Scotsman would engage in middle class business networking?
[01:23] Stocks Mall Multi: My boss just rolled over to 1m in a 365 day period
[01:27] Tawt Strat: I'm not exactly saying that but you have to understand that people that grow up as posh types here have fuck all to do with the culture of ordinary Scottish people.
[01:28] Dryhad: But isn't that a circular argument?
[01:28] Dryhad: I mean, it's actually literally No True Scotsman
[01:29] Tawt Strat: They simply don't mix and it's typical for a posh kid to not even go out to play with friends.
[01:30] Dryhad: Just like the English
[01:31] Tawt Strat: I may use that phrase somewhat ironically but I've been in situations with normal Scottish guys and posh types and the posh ones react pretty much as the English would do to them.
[01:33] Dryhad: You paint such a vivid picture with your words, it's almost like I was there myself, reacting to this nondescript event
[01:34] Tawt Strat: It's true that not all English are posh but it is just the case that some posh people like to call themselves Scottish but pretty much all that they can say about it is that they were born in Scotland
[01:35] Dryhad: As a True Scot yourself, you aren't exactly saying a lot about it either
[01:36] Dryhad: You seem to be intentionally avoiding saying anything specific, in fact
[01:36] Tawt Strat: It's a debate that goes on here about whether we're losing our national identity and not merely me calling posh people English.
[01:37] Dryhad: I suspect that when the debate goes on over there, both sides present actual arguments rather than the vaguest possible pseudo-anecdotes
[01:38] Tawt Strat: I say things about myself and my life all the time. On the forums it became a joke to call me Begby.
[01:38] Dryhad: I honestly have no idea what you consider to be Scottish culture because you haven't said. And you also haven't said what you consider to be English beyond "posh"
[01:39] Dryhad: FFS, I'm not asking you to give me your life story. I'm asking for literally any pertinent detail whatsoever about the topic you claim to be addressing!
[01:40] Tawt Strat: The argument is mainly about multiculturasim and some will obviously say that Scottishness changes due to it. Nevertheless, it's change from what we thought it was.
[01:40] Dryhad: Whatever that might have been
[01:43] Tawt Strat: Posh is mainly a set of behaviours and it's the exact opposite of a down to earth person that isn't ashamed of his behaviour. Poshness is often about affectations and ssnobbery.
[01:44] Dryhad: Getting warmer
[01:44] Dryhad: So a True Scotsman is down to earth and unashamed of his behaviour?
[01:44] Dryhad: As national identities go, that's a pretty common one to be honest
[01:46] Tawt Strat: I would say that it's someone that grew up in that peer group and continued to talk and act like them without being ashamed about it.
[01:48] Dryhad: But you claimed that "posh" people acting "Scottish" was an affectation. Why would they do that if it ashamed them?
[01:49] Dryhad: I mean, it kind of sounds like the early Soviet view that the proletariat and the bourgoise were genetically different and had incompatible cultures and languages and everything
[01:49] Dryhad: Like Scots are genetically working class and Gaelic is a proletarian language but the English are their posh oppressors who might pretend to be Scots but can never truly be
[01:50] MOTH: "gaeletariat"
[01:52] Tawt Strat: But there's very much a class system here and if you want to call Scotland a colonised nation it's just a fact that English types look down on the majority.
[01:53] Dryhad: What if, hypothetically speaking, you don't want to call it that?
[01:54] MOTH: I would like to call Scotland "Klimpers", but I fear no one would know what I meant.
[01:59] Tawt Strat: Don't want to call it a colinised nation, you mean?
[01:59] Dryhad: Yes, that was the conditional in your statement
[02:00] Dryhad: Or to put it a different way, what if we don't insist on class and culture being the exact same thing?
[02:00] Dryhad: Then would you be able to give an actual answer to what you think Scottish identity is?
[02:04] Tawt Strat: Well, the class system would still remain and I think that my argument, such as it is, hinges on the claim that posh people live sheltered lives and don't really have much to do wwith Scottish culture
[02:07] Tawt Strat: Scottish identity consists in how a person acts but it varies depending which part of Scotland you're from.
[02:08] MOTH: The part near Cairo
[02:09] Tawt Strat: Someone from the highlands would lump me in with the English just because that's what they traditionally did.
[02:10] Xairon: Does permed pool skill carry over to avatr class paths?
[02:11] DeaksDeetee: From hustling? Yeah, even Bad Moon.
[02:11] Xairon: ok, thanks
[02:14] Dryhad: Ok Tawt. You have fun building up your national identity of "it varies"
[02:14] Dryhad: Watch out for posh people voluntarily affecting a culture that ashames them
[02:16] Tawt Strat: But loads of things that are associated with Scottishness were just made up and romanticised by Walter Scot and that's why I talk about affectations.
[02:17] Dryhad: All culture is made up and romanticised
[02:17] Dryhad: Why split hairs over how long ago it happened?
[02:18] Dryhad: Especially if you're not actually going to bother to define what you think is proper Scottish
[02:19] Dryhad: "It varies but it's not English and it's not posh and it's not the stuff Walter Scot made up"
[02:20] Tawt Strat: I can still think of someone from Glasgow as being Scottish, even if I dislike Glasgow and look down on them for not being from a nicer city like Edinburgh.
[02:20] Dryhad: Unless they're posh
[02:20] Dryhad: Then they're just an Englishman in disguise
[02:21] Boesbert: Or an Englishman in Newyork
[02:21] Tawt Strat: I might even think that they're more Scottish than me.
[02:21] Boesbert: [link] https:// www.youtube.com/ watch?v=9AG6ubkSIn4
[02:22] Dryhad: Tawt, at this point I'm pretty much convinced you're a pureblood Saxon
[02:22] Tawt Strat: My sister lived in Glasgow for a while in a posh area and she's a posh snob and even married an Englishman.
[02:27] Tawt Strat: She even uses the term "neds" which is a term of abuse for a type off working class Scot, who lacks the ability to speak without an accent for one thing.
[02:29] Dryhad: Honestly this explains a lot
[02:37] Tawt Strat: Don't really knoww how to take that comment about being insane but being a mad bastard could be something that I might say is a Scottish sort of thing that isn't just a cliche or affectation.
[02:38] Dryhad: Holy crap, an actual partial definition?
[02:39] Dryhad: Was that so hard?
[02:40] Tawt Strat: Certainly I might mean it in the sennse that someone doesn't give a fuck and might be violent or abusive.
[02:42] Dryhad: Sure, not the most flattering of cultural identities but at least it's something
[02:44] Tawt Strat: Whereas what I'm calling posh types would tend to be uptight and pussies when it comes to fighting.
[02:45] Dryhad: Q: Do you believe there is any meaning whatsoever to "Scottish" identity that ISN'T contingent on a contrast with "poshness"?
[02:46] Dryhad: You were sooooo close
[02:46] Tawt Strat: They might have done boxxing or rugger at university but that won't help much if some nutter headbutts them and kicks them in the balls.
[02:47] Dryhad: Please stop talking about how different from you the posh are
[02:47] Dryhad: Or answer the question with an unambiguous negative and be fucking done with it
[02:47] Boesbert: haha, "the posh"
[02:50] Tawt Strat: Yes, I am mainly using that distinction because they are the largest group that want to call themselves Scottish.
[02:51] Dryhad: Do you understand me when I ask you to stop that and give me a foundational definition?
[02:51] YojIMbOS_law: a True Scotsman is the opposite of a thing tawt dislikes, dryhad. why is this so difficult for you to understand?
[02:51] yOJimBOS_lAW: he clearly doesn't have any sane view on the subject, let it go.
[02:52] fureru23: okay... you can't cast hogtie on a black adder because it doesn't have any legs
[02:52] fureru23: You should focus on saw sharpening today. Cast Hogtie, once per fight, against a black adder 8 times (look in The Black Forest).
[02:53] Tawt Strat: I know an Englishman from Manchester who'ss lived here since a kid and he's not posh.
[02:53] fureru23: again, wth game
[02:53] yoJImBoS_laW: stop playing avatar paths.
[02:53] Dryhad: Bug report it, Fu
[02:53] yOjiMBOs_Law: you've made your bed by playing defunct parts of the game.
[02:53] Dryhad: Tawt, that non sequitur is about poshness and NOT Scottishness. That is the exact opposite of what I asked
[02:54] yoJiMbOS_lAW: jfc, dryhad.
[02:54] Boesbert: the posh identity
[02:54] Dryhad: Thank you for your concern, Slaw, but I'm not doing this for your benefit
[02:54] YOJIMBoS_LAw: it's been nearly two hours of you egging on a delusional person for your amusement.
[02:54] Boesbert: the funny thing is that Dryhad has kept engaging not just for many hours but what seems like actual days now.
[02:55] Boesbert: this started not yesterday, am i right?
[02:55] Dryhad: Nah, that was a different conversation
[02:55] Dryhad: And I did give that one up
[02:55] Tawt Strat: I dislike many Scots but can still have things in common with them.
[02:55] Boesbert: same reason for that conversation going nowhere though, i am assuming -hic-
[02:56] Boesbert resumes sitting on his hands
[02:56] Dryhad: Tawt. Very simple request: Please define Scottish identity in a clear and concrete way that does not rely on contrasts with poshness
[02:57] Dryhad: Or on contrasts with Englishness. Or on random swipes at Walter Scot or your sister.
[02:57] Raynian: Scottishness may (or may not) be tied to poshness in the way that you're still dedicated to asking Tawt Strat about poshness.
[02:58] Dryhad: I'm not asking him about that, Raynian, he just keeps answering as though I was
[02:58] YOJiMbOs_LAw: that sounds like a thing a posh person would say, dryhad.
[02:58] YojIMBos_lAW: you know, this one time, a posh person did a thing and it made me think they weren't actually Scottish.
[02:58] Dryhad: Well I'd be shit in a fight so by one of his definitions I'm posh, Slaw
[02:59] Tawt Strat: That other conversation was about personality disorders and wasn't anything to do with this unless it's just because some random noob called me insane earlier today.
[02:59] Dryhad: It doesn't. Stay focused
[02:59] Boesbert: haha
[02:59] fureru23: "you don't have a gun. All Americans got guns, therefore you're not an American."
[03:00] Dryhad: Nah, Fu. Tawt's position is more like defining being an American as not being Canadian
[03:00] yOjIMbOs_lAw: why would anyone call you insane, tawt? that's entirely too direct. -hic-
[03:01] yOjIMbOS_LAW: they should've gotten you to ramble about your musings on Scottishness/ poshness instead.
[03:01] Dryhad: [17:39] Arrgy: Jesus Christ. Who is this Risktaker guy Slaw? [17:39] Arrgy: He's mental
[03:01] YojImbOS_laW: oh, so this is my fault?
[03:02] Dryhad: In between comparing Scots to posh people (who are their mirror universe opposites), Tawt has been obsessing about that nonstop for the past two and a half hours
[03:02] yoJimbOS_lAW: cool.
[03:02] syi: This conversation has been going for so long, I googled "posh scot" and got this:
[03:02] syi: [link] http:// img.tatler.co.uk.s3. amazonaws.com/ 1080x720/a_c/ 2569287-tatler- 10sep14_Amelia- Troubridge_b_1080x72 0.jpg
[03:03] Dryhad: That's cute
[03:03] YoJiMBOS_LAW: that kid is clearly English.
[03:03] YOjimBOS_LAW: you can tell by the poshness.
[03:06] fureru23: hmm... It's saturday on Arizona, right? That means any fix-up for this correspondence shenanigans would be solved by monday...
[03:06] fureru23: which means I'm screwed
[03:07] Dryhad: "Missing one day of saw sharpening" = "Screwed"?
[03:07] Tawt Strat: I doubt that you could define Scottishness more simply than I have I could say loads of things are Scottish but I can't say it's wearing a kilt or liking bagpipes because those are the fake stereotype
[03:08] Dryhad: I bet you could define it more thoroughly than you have, because you fucking haven't at all.
[03:08] fureru23: sharpening gives a vip point, right?
[03:08] Dryhad: You just keep saying what it isn't, like this
[03:08] Dryhad: Right, fu
[03:09] Tawt Strat: *stereotypes that I'm callinng affecttations.
[03:09] Dryhad: Cool. Call them what you want. I asked you what Scottishness is and you answer with more of what it isn't
[03:10] Tawt Strat: How is that different from Sherlock Holmes method of excluding the impossible so that only the truth can remain?
[03:10] Dryhad: Sherlock Holmes was English
[03:11] Dryhad: And therefore posh
[03:11] Raynian: Because Sherlock Holmes is a fictional character and always arrives at the correct conclusion through the power of plot. Also that.
[03:11] YoJimBOS_lAW: yes, dryhad. how isn't tawt literally sherlock Holmes?
[03:11] Alien_Octopus: Maybe go about it differently. Is a scott someone borne from scottish parents?
[03:11] Dryhad: No, Alien, because Tawt's sister is posh and therefore non-Scottish
[03:12] Alien_Octopus: But maybe she was scottish at some point in her life and then decided to renounce it by being posh?
[03:12] Dryhad: Tawt, if it's so elementary to you why don't you lay it out for the Watsons among us?
[03:13] Alien_Octopus: or taking up a different cultural identity, that's something that could happen,
[03:13] Dryhad: If you have excluded the impossible, please articulate for us the truth that remains
[03:13] fureru23: elementary, dear watson!
[03:13] fureru23: no shit, sherlock!
[03:15] Tawt Strat: Sherlock Holmes was written by a Scotsman and although they're set in London, it's really Edinburgh because that's where he studied medicine and there is a long tradition of crime novels written by Ed
[03:15] yoJIMbOS_lAw: Maybe Scottish people can be posh if you relax the Hausdorff condition.
[03:15] Tawt Strat: *Edinburgh writers.
[03:16] fureru23: wasn't holmes british?
[03:16] Dryhad: Scotland is part of Britain, Fu
[03:16] MOTH: MURLOCK HOLMES WAS A FISHMAN!
[03:16] fureru23: oh, didn't knew that
[03:16] fureru23 shows his ignorance to the world
[03:17] YOjImbos_lAw: it's okay, fureru. you're not an interdisciplinary scholar of posh-Scot studies like tawt clearly is, so you wouldn't be expected to know.
[03:18] Tawt Strat: It is hard to describe what people are like in a place to people that have certainly never lived there.
[03:18] Dryhad: It's hard to get you to answer a simple question but I've kept trying for nearly three fucking hours now
[03:18] yOJimbOS_lAW: the reason it's difficult to describe is because such a description that differentiates Scots from everyone else doesn't fucking exist. -hic-
[03:18] Dryhad: Give it a fucking shot
[03:19] MOTH: Dryhad fucks hours. You heard.
[03:19] YOJimbos_LAW: no, moth. three fucks hours.
[03:19] Tawt Strat: In any great detaiol, that is. The distinction between posh Scots is real though, whether or not you personaly want to call them Scottish is not my concern.
[03:20] MOTH: There are 3 Nomoths?
[03:20] Alien_Octopus: Do posh scots identify themselves as scots, tawt?
[03:20] Tawt Strat: *detail
[03:20] Dryhad: Gotcha. Scottish culture doesn't exist. Thanks for the talk, Tawt
[03:20] MOTH: They prefer to be called Wizzleblips
[03:21] fureru23: [link] http:// megamitensei.wikia.c om/wiki/Mothman
[03:21] Dryhad: They do, Alien, but they're ashamed of it so they're actually English
[03:21] Tawt Strat: Sometimes but more likely they would see themselves as British first. There are surveys about it.
[03:22] MOTH: Scotlandians?
[03:22] YoJIMBos_lAW: tawt wanders the streets accusing posh people of being British. They agree more often than not.
[03:22] MOTH: Also, as an aside, how passe is it to have a country with "land" at the end of the name anyhow?
[03:23] YOjiMBOS_LAw: quite.
[03:23] Tawt Strat: Scottish culture most certainly does exist, as does English culture but it would take more than three hours to say what a culture is all about. That's why people travel to discover them for themselve
[03:23] MOTH: I travel to masturbate in new and fun hotel rooms.
[03:24] Oliver Sudden: :| Sigh.
[03:24] Alien_Octopus: Not really, tawt. Cultural identity can be comprised by certain aspects. Language, customs, country of origin, ancenstry
[03:24] Dryhad: I never asked for an exhaustive guide, I would have settled for literally anything at all and you couldn't deliver
[03:24] Dryhad: Oliver! Finally, a sane Scot
[03:24] YOJiMBoS_LAw: oliver isn't sane. they fake ban ineffectively >_>
[03:25] MOTH: Sans caught?
[03:25] Dryhad: I have spent the last three hours trying and failing to get Tawt to explain what he thinks Scottish identity is
[03:25] Alien_Octopus: maybe he doesn't have a definition, Dryhad
[03:25] Tawt Strat: Just because you didn't like my answer that doesn't mean that I didn't give you one.
[03:25] Dryhad: So far the best I've got is "Not English, not posh, not what Walter Scot made up"
[03:25] yoJimBoS_LAW: also not his sister?
[03:26] Dryhad: Yeah, he's got some family issues too
[03:26] Alien_Octopus: Tbf, tawt, you did not give him one. You mostly said what you do not consider as a scottish cultural identity, not what one actually is
[03:26] yOJImbOS_lAW: not sure why we'd be fair at this point, regardless.
[03:26] Dryhad: s/mostly/entirely
[03:27] MOTH: I'm the fairest of them all
[03:27] MOTH: Or at least so this magic mirror on the wall tells me.
[03:27] Alien_Octopus: Indeed you are, Moth. Ask the mirror if you're posh or not too
[03:28] yojimBOS_lAW: does the magic mirror make the hotel room new and exciting?
[03:28] MOTH: I'm not Posh, I'm probably Baby or Scary.
[03:28] Alien_Octopus: So you sing
[03:28] Tawt Strat: That's actually quite close to a good definition that many Scots would accept and I can always say that it's hard to say much more because Scottish culture has been actively dismissed and forgotten by
[03:28] MOTH: That's -a- term for it? Not one sane people'd use. =D
[03:29] Alien_Octopus: What is? (@ tawt)
[03:29] Dryhad: It's not a good definition because you're just negating stuff
[03:29] MOTH: Dude, I don't masturbate in front of a mirror. That's asking for mental issues. =D
[03:29] yOJIMbos_law: 'not a list of things'
[03:30] fureru23: well, that dude from greek mythology did that in a river
[03:30] Alien_Octopus: So, not posh, not british is your definition? If yes, i'm scotish too
[03:30] Tawt Strat: By the shortbread tin kilt wearing wankers.
[03:30] Dryhad: And not even in a terribly descriptive way. Although I hesitate to explain how undescriptive it is because you'll probably take it as an invitation to explain poshness again
[03:30] Alien_Octopus: maybe is you ask him what poshness is you'll get a definition of what scottishness is?
[03:31] YOJimboS_LAw: I can take a coyote in a fight, and I'm not British, thus I am at least as Scottish as anyone here. -hic-
[03:31] Alien_Octopus: aww Moth, thank you :)
[03:31] fureru23: ... that sounded more like racism than sterotyping
[03:31] Dryhad: He _almost_ explained Scottishness while talking about poshness, Alien
[03:31] MOTH: I DEMAND YOU NOW DEFINE FOR ME EVERY LAST THING POSH -ISN'T-
[03:33] yOJIMbOS_laW: I'm pretty sure posh isn't a sandwich.
[03:33] Dryhad: Now we have an unambiguous definition of what poshness is!
[03:33] Dryhad: It's "not a sandwich"!
[03:34] syi: To be fair, I remember visiting some family in Kirkcaldy one summer and I saw the neighbours sitting on a little bench in front of their house.
[03:34] syi: There was something about the way they were holding their cigarettes with pensive scowls on their faces which was really characteristic, familiar and at the same not easily describable.
[03:34] syi: Hardly "culture", but there are odd ways of spotting compatriots abroad. Also: not sure if Twat wants to preserve that.
[03:34] Tawt Strat: Poshness is a way of acting or speaking and as it is the opposite of what I'm talking about you seem to want me to simply define antithetical behaviours.
[03:34] yoJimbOS_LAw: pfft.
[03:36] Dryhad: Tawt, you are now claiming that Scottishness has no meaning beyond being the opposite of poshness?
[03:36] Dryhad: Because I asked you that exact question earlier and you said it did
[03:37] Tawt Strat: Such distinctions seem silly but in the UK they will argue about whether it's jaam or cream first on scones that makes you from Devon or Cornwall.
[03:39] Dryhad: See, now, that's a good example of how to define a culture. In one culture they put jam on first, in the other they put cream on first
[03:39] Tawt Strat: I am not exactly giving you a scholarly definition. What I'm saying is a kind of opinion shared by many people like myself.
[03:39] MOTH: So you really are all Lilliputians?
[03:39] Dryhad: Clear, positive, unambiguous. Is it so fucking hard to say something like that about Scotland?
[03:40] Oliver Sudden: gosh
[03:40] Dryhad: Um, could you maybe give a scholarly definition then?
[03:40] Dryhad: Or confirm that the "opinion" of yourself and your compatriots is "Scottish is the opposite of posh and nothing more"?
[03:43] YoJiMboS_laW: Scottishness is a well-ordering of people of Scottish ancestry determined by pitfight victories.
[03:43] Tawt Strat: I think that I'm going to have to revert to arguing that it's a matter of belonging to a peer group or growing up with one and if you are not mixing with other kids from that culture how can you be pa
[03:44] MOTH: By having kids, Then you're their pa.
[03:44] MOTH: Unless you're female.
[03:44] MOTH: Then you're their ma.
[03:45] Tawt Strat: *part of it? Posh kids go to posh schools and are taught to speak the "Queen's English" and so on.
[03:46] MOTH: (The Queen of France's English)
[03:46] Dryhad: Mary, Queen of Scots' English
[03:46] yojIMbOS_lAw: 'night.
[03:46] Dryhad: Goodnight, Slaw
[03:47] MOTH: Gorka Queen of Morka.
[03:49] MOTH: Man. "Francis II of France". A little on the nose, isn't it?
[03:56] Dryhad: And now chat is dead because I stopped trying to get Tawt to give a proper answer?
[03:57] Tawt Strat: I was rolling a joint actually.
[03:57] MOTH: Chat's dead because I got caught up in reading about the House of Stuart
[03:57] Dryhad: Proposal for Scottish national identity: Supporters of the Scottish FIFA team
[03:58] Dryhad: That seems to be about as well defined as Tawt's "definition"
[03:59] Tiny Plastic Xairon:  is it a good idea to use a tennis ball on non dirty lihcs :|
[03:59] Tiny Plastic Xairon: in HC GN
[03:59] Dryhad: I guess
[04:03] fureru23: aren't banishers limited there? -hic-
[04:03] fureru23: and if you're running the gravy boat, the rates isn't that bad
[04:03] Tawt Strat: What gives a group it's identity is shared experience. I am basing all of this on that. A group of Scots that have had that can exclude anyone thatt hasn't as being not one of them.
[04:05] Dryhad: Can you name just one example of this ouvre of shared experience?
[04:07] Raynian: Why are we going back to this?
[04:07] Tawt Strat: Why "posh" is particularly relevant is that they lead sheltered lives from a lot of it and can be stay at home types that never do anything that bonds them to that group.
[04:08] Dryhad: Cool. Answer the question I asked please?
[04:08] fureru23 admires you guys for having the stamina of going into circles
[04:08] Dryhad: Raynian, because I am going to get an answer to what is actually a pretty simple question or die trying
[04:09] Tawt Strat: Because if someone keeps saying that I haven't answered a questtion yet I sometimes persevere.
[04:09] DanceCommander6: prepare for the latter
[04:10] Dryhad: Tell me one of the experiences you have shared with the greater Scottish people! Tell me one single experience that constitutes part of your national identity!
[04:10] Dryhad: You claim this defines you? Then articulate it!
[04:11] Dryhad: Don't keep telling me that you aren't posh. Don't keep talking in broad generalisations. Tell me one thing and I'll leave it!
[04:16] Tawt Strat: Now, I am making the claim that a person can say that they live in Scotland and have things in common with people that they associated with that are fully integrated into the actual culture outside of
[04:17] Dryhad: I understand that
[04:17] Dryhad: Please tell me one of these experiences now
[04:20] Tawt Strat: *their own four walls. I may be somewhat posh but I had other friends that weren't and those are the kids that actually go out and do stuff, adopt their language and so on.
[04:21] echineko: interesting mood in /hc today
[04:22] Dryhad: So you're saying that you're an Englishman and your recalicitrance in defining Scottishness over the past four hours now has been due to your ignorance of Scottish culture?
[04:26] Tawt Strat: One time myy cousin visited a posh kid to play Dungeons and Dragons and we all walked another guy home and told stories about scrapes we had been in and stuff, apart from the posh ki.
[04:26] Dryhad: Is that the experience?
[04:27] Tawt Strat: *posh kid because he had no way to relate. Never went out or did those kinds of things.
[04:27] Dryhad: Hmm, no it sounds like it was a story about talking about the experience
[04:29] Tawt Strat: No. I'm thinking about how to give you an experience and just mentioned that to illistrate that they can be totally lacking in a person's life, even though he was born in the country.
[04:30] Dryhad: Which four hours ago I would have argued as evidence that "Scottish" is a terrible description for the group you've defined
[04:30] Dryhad: But I'm not asking you to make me understand your experience. I'm asking you to tell it to me
[04:31] Dryhad: You can tell it in Gaelic and I won't understand a word of it but I'll accept that as evidence that you actually have an experience in mind
[04:31] Dryhad: Do you understand what I'm asking for?
[04:31] Tawt Strat: What kids are into at the time will change but if you want to call them games or bonding rituals I can at least say that someone my age just isn't Scottish as far as I can tell.
[04:32] Dryhad: Don't care what the kids are into these days. Tell me your genuine Scottish experience, which will be lost on my Antipodean ears, but will nevertheless be told from your Caledonian heart!
[04:33] vewybody: you were rolling a joint earlier, you said? seems to have been the good stuff, at least
[04:34] Tawt Strat: Sure there are things that kids do specifically in Scotland. They wouldn't mean much to you but they should to a Scottish person.
[04:34] Dryhad: They don't have to mean shit to me. Tell me one!
[04:35] Tawt Strat: Yeah, I only smoke bud these days. It's a cheese strain, if you're interested.
[04:35] Boesbert: Dryhad, are you okay?
[04:35] Dryhad: I will be when I hear Tawt tell a shaggy dog story about growing up in Scotland
[04:36] Dryhad: Tawt! You have adequately prepared me for a story which will mean nothing to me, which will have no clear purpose, which will resonate only with the True Scots. Let's have it then!
[04:39] Tawt Strat: I'm thinking of one but I could go on about Oor Wully type stuff or get into less innocent things that we did as kkiids.
[04:39] Tawt Strat: *kids
[04:39] Dryhad: Let's hear about Oor Wully, sure
[04:41] Tawt Strat: You could read about him on Wikipedia. Also The Broons. They were Scottish comic strips about typical Scots folks.
[04:42] Dryhad: So that comic strip is the experience?
[04:42] Tawt Strat: No but I was a bit like him as a kid.
[04:43] Dryhad: Well go on then
[04:46] Tawt Strat: He's maybe a bit like a Scottish Tom Sawyer but there was an anual every year and the stories are mainly about stuff that he does with his pals and just a lot of stuff that Scottish kids did.
[04:46] Dryhad: *Go on with your experience of doing something like Oor Wully did
[04:46] Dryhad: Which you implied you were just about to do
[04:48] Tawt Strat: It's hard to give one experience, as if everyone must have done the same thing but the experiences are more about how the relationships work and that can be quite particular to this culture.
[04:49] Tawt Strat: He used to sit on an overturned bucket.
[04:49] Dryhad: You're getting closer but you're still trying surprisingly hard not to actually say anything
[04:49] Tawt Strat: Like a stool.
[04:49] fureru23: pals, it's almost three hours
[04:49] Dryhad: It's over four now, Fu
[04:50] fureru23: ... dang
[04:50] Dryhad: And Tawt has still not answered the question. He's getting very close. He's going to relate to me something he did as a child, right, Tawt?
[04:50] fureru23 envies your free time
[04:50] Dryhad: And then I'm going to call that close enough and go to bed
[04:50] Dryhad: Deal?
[04:50] Tawt Strat: Yeah, I'll have to go soon but I don't mind chatting until I've finished this beer anyway.
[04:51] Tawt Strat: Yeah, I'll think of something I did that's worth telling you in a minute.
[04:52] Dryhad: Or something that's not worth telling me. I'll also accept that
[04:53] Tawt Strat: I mean, something that's not just a scots word for something everybody does.
[04:53] Dryhad: Ok, actually going for the spirit of the request. I admire that
[04:54] Raynian: Maybe the entire point of this exercise was proving that being a scotsman involves wasting other people's time for four hours.
[04:56] Dryhad: Then I guess I'm a Scot too?
[04:56] Oliver Sudden: Are yous still talking about this?
[04:57] Dryhad: Of course. I'm getting my answer
[04:57] Tawt Strat: Or it could be that it's literary criticism because I said that the claim about some people really being English came from a novel.
[04:58] Boesbert: no you're not
[04:58] Liquid Pyramid: I only know one Scot and he's a hot mod
[04:58] Dryhad: I'm getting my answer or I'm getting a de facto concession
[04:59] Boesbert: you'll go to bed hungry, angry and with neither of those things Sigh.
[04:59] JLE: Do we know what the question is any more?
[04:59] Tawt Strat: I'll give you another quote from him. It might even satisffy you.
[04:59] Dryhad: "What is Scottish culture?"
[04:59] Dryhad: Tawt has spent the past four hours and twenty minutes expertly failing to answer
[05:00] Boesbert: hey, 420
[05:00] Tawt Strat: *satisfy
[05:01] JLE: And I take it the typical stereotype of "haggis, kilts, bagpipes, folk-dancing and baiting the English" is not what you're after.
[05:01] Dryhad: I'd have accepted that if Tawt hadn't specifically denied it
[05:01] Dryhad: He has been quite diligent at stating what Scottishness ISN'T, but is having some trouble with what it IS
[05:02] JLE: Well I'm not sure what Englishness is either, to be honest
[05:02] JLE: What's Australian culture?
[05:02] Dryhad: I would also accept that answer. He swears he knows what it is
[05:03] JLE: Sometimes one can know something without being able to articulate it.
[05:03] Tawt Strat: "Yeah, we all snowdropped but the rest of us didn't wear them and we sold them to buy decent clothes."
[05:03] JLE: I think we understand national stereotypes better than national culture
[05:04] Dryhad: That is your submission, Tawt?
[05:04] Liquid Pyramid: beer, kangaroos, barbie, animals that want to kill you
[05:04] Dryhad: Don't forget cricket. And meat pies
[05:05] JLE: And a wine industry that took about thirty years to actually *get* as good as Australians claimed it always was.
[05:06] Dryhad: Thing is, Australian culture was formed after Walter Scott was already dead for decades, but he was a modern fabricator of false Scottishism according to Tawt
[05:07] Tawt Strat: I'm giving you it as an example of something that many kids apparently did, specifically in this part of the world when they were children. And yes, that is a Sick Boy quote and Sick Boy is a fiction
[05:07] JLE: And that's kinda true in many ways. Scott sort of romanticized a whole lot of old passed-away Scottish culture but got it wrong, or at best, exaggerated for literary purposes
[05:07] Dryhad: Great! We're done here. Thanks everyone!
[05:08] JLE: And it was a Scottish culture that had been long gone ever since Scotland discovered what it now prefers to forget, which is that more Scots fought *against* the Jacobite rebellion than for
[05:08] Tawt Strat: Failing to see how Australia is relevant to the Scottish Enlightenment and romanticism.
[05:09] JLE: And I believe a lot of more recent Scottish culture has been, well, making the best of what one has. A lot of Britain's great inventors and entrepreneurs were Scottish.
[05:09] Dryhad: It's just a comparison in age-based metrics of culture, Tawt
[05:10] JLE: What I have noticed is that a lot of Aussies seem quite happy to play up to the "parody" version of Australian culture pretty much all the time, for a laugh.
[05:12] Tawt Strat: I did say that things that kids do change but I can talk about there have been a Scottish culture that I grew up with because there simply weren't as many imigrants then.
[05:13] Dryhad: You answered the question as we eventually agreed would be acceptable, Tawt
[05:13] Dryhad: You're good.
[05:13] Tawt Strat: I did and I hope that you're happy enough with it and thank you for the chat.