leo: One advice for you: don't forget to remain humble and take things for granted.
tobbi__
*don't take things for granted.
tobbi__
In my opinion you have already started to feel more 'important' than others. But that might just be my view.
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tobbi__
Feel free to convince me of the opposite.
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leo
okay
leo
there's a difference between importance and value
leo
different mozillians are of different importance to the mozilla project
leo
that's just the way it's going to be
leo
however, all mozillians are equally valued
tobbi__
You're making a difference where there is none.
tobbi__
Importance is the same as value.
leo
okay, whatever
tobbi__
If not, explain the difference to me.
leo
some mozillians are more valued than others
leo
there
leo
I said it
leo
smite me
tobbi__
Oh, you mean importance > value.
tobbi__
People with higher importance have an equal value for Mozilla.
tobbi__
It's bullshit to say that all mozillians are equally valued, unless you mean their manpower...
leo
okay, it's bullshit
leo
I don't really care
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tobbi__
Oh, if you don't care. Then get the hell out of this project.
leo
you continue to believe whatever you want to believe about the reps program and mozilla
leo
I'll continue to spread the awesome that is mozilla
leo
tobbi__: why?
tobbi__
leo: This is a fundamental discussion. We're equally valued, aren't we? You're supposed to at least understand my point of view and not try to convince me otherwise. Isn't that what mozilla is about? Different points of view?
leo
I dunno
leo
I don't care
leo
stick to your views, I'll stick to mine
tobbi__
Oh? Wanna re-read the mozilla manifesto then?
leo
you can C&P the appropriate sections if you feel so strongly about this
tobbi__
or the contributor guidelines whatever they're called?
tobbi__
leo: You understood me wrong: I'm not against the reps program at all. I'm against being managed by other contributors, being told what to do by other contributor, against the idea that other contributors have more influence than I have (which makes me feel weak) and the idea that I don't have any influence on e.g. the reps council result finding process.
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tobbi__
That's not open at all.
tobbi__
Any objections to that?
leo
what sense does it make for you to have any influence on the reps-council-finding-process?
leo
if you're not a rep, the reps council doesn't affect you in any way
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tobbi__
leo: That's right but other contributors have to live with the decisions of the council.
tobbi__
Whether they might be in their opinion or not...
leo
tobbi__: contributors within the reps program
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tobbi__
leo: Doesn't matter.
tobbi__
It's still contributors.
leo
tobbi__: so you're suggesting remo become anarchic?
tobbi__
leo: Yes.
leo
hahaha
tobbi__
...or even better:
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tobbi__
Managed by Mozilla employees.
leo
no, srsly.
tobbi__
I would totally love that.
leo
wtf?
leo
I detect a hit of sarcasm
tobbi__
That's not sarcasm.
leo
okay
leo
so...
tobbi__
I trust employees more than community members.
leo
all mozillians are equal
leo
and equally valued
tobbi__
Because they have a manager who watches them.
leo
and imporant
leo
unless they're employees
tobbi__
leo: You said something different a few minutes ago.
leo
in which case they can tell you what to do
leo
tobbi__: no, I'm trying to figure out *your* point of view
tobbi__
leo: Employees have an instance that watches what they do.
tobbi__
And they can be made responsible for their mistakes.
tobbi__
That's not the case with community members.
tobbi__
And I don't feel comfortable being managed by another community member.
leo
why?
leo
if you disagree with something
leo
don't do it
leo
anyway, two members of the reps council are mozilla employees
tobbi__
Because community members that are in the reps council can virtually do everything. They can decide on a scale of up to 500 USD whether they grant it or not.
leo
and how does this relate back to a buddycloud instance
tobbi__
Now imagine my request for money is received by a community member I've had differences with.
leo
or fuzzyfox being known by mitchell?
tobbi__
And he doesn't grant it for the exact same reason.
leo
tobbi__: if you think they've done that, you send an email to the whole reps-council
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tobbi__
leo: I'm talking about scenarios right now.
tobbi__
Still, people might feel more important when they're on the council.
leo
and I'm talking about solutions to your scenarios
leo
okay
tobbi__
Oh, also, Mitchell only knows FuzzyFox because what he does relates so nicely to the marketing strategies.
tobbi__
Mozilla's that is.
leo
that's not what you were saying a couple of days ago
tobbi__
No, it's my justification.
leo
so you've changed your opinion?
tobbi__
It's the solution to my inferiority complex when it comes to that.
tobbi__
Not at all. I'm still jealous which I shouldn't be.
leo
jealousy is a natural human feeling
leo
go create something awesome for support.mozilla.org
tobbi__
haha, don't start with that crap. I'm not gonna change a thing about my opinion unless you at least account for it.
tobbi__
Or at least value it.
leo
or organise something in your local community
leo
and you'll get over it
tobbi__
You know what: It's my right to not change my opinion at all.
leo
I do value your feeling of jealousy
tobbi__
I am not going to ever get over it...
leo
at no point have I said you should change your opinion
tobbi__
Because there is a reason that you keep ignoring.
tobbi__
The whole hierarchy is just crap.
leo
I'm just trying to get to the bottom of why you hate the reps program (or not, as it seems)
leo
there's no way to get around a hierarchy
leo
anarchy just doesn't work
leo
and is impossible
tobbi__
leo: I don't trust the competence of people who are higher than me.
tobbi__
That's the bottom line.
leo
there are going to be module owners
leo
reps councils
tobbi__
leo: This is not a code issue.
leo
tobbi__: unless they're employees?
leo
tobbi__: well, that's a hierarchy
tobbi__
leo: People who are employees get watched and can be made responsible.
leo
contributors are watched to
tobbi__
You cannot make community members responsible.
leo
*too
leo
you can, in part
tobbi__
And what're you gonna do about it when they make mistakes?
tobbi__
Cast them out? Sue them?
tobbi__
:D
leo
if I did some bad shit, I could be chucked out for reps :P
tobbi__
Wow.
leo
*of
tobbi__
That's a great consequence.
leo
well
leo
okay
leo
your issue is community members in positions of leadership
tobbi__
Yes.
leo
what if they lose that leadership if they abuse their power as you are afraid they might?
tobbi__
I don't care. I don't want any community member to be my leader.
leo
they can't abuse power which they don't have
tobbi__
I don't want any community member to feel more important than me because of their standing.
tobbi__
or rather their position.
leo
but you do want employees to?
tobbi__
That's different.
tobbi__
Those are two different worlds.
leo
in my mind this discussion/debate about equality in mozilla has taken a whole new turn
leo
it's gone from "all mozillians should be equal"
leo
to "only employees should be given positions of leadership and power"
leo
which is the most un-equal you can make mozilla
tobbi__
Not exactly.
leo
completely
tobbi__
The community themselves are equal.
tobbi__
And employees are equal.
leo
employees are members of the community
tobbi__
No!
leo
yes!
tobbi__
Employees are employees of the Mozilla corporation.
leo
oder, doch!
leo
and members of the mozilla community
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tobbi__
Yes, but they're getting paid for their work..That's the difference to community members.
tobbi__
And, as I said, they have responsibility...
tobbi__
And they can be trusted with that responsibility.
leo
which means they should have to work harder in the community to justify them being payed
tobbi__
Not at all. It's still a level of trust...
leo
but community members can't?
leo
for the sole reason of not being payed?
leo
I think that that's a pile of BS
tobbi__
You're not getting me.
tobbi__
As I said earlier: Employees can face charges like getting fired.
tobbi__
Community members can do anything they wanted.
tobbi__
The only danger there is is that they might get cast out of the program.
leo
no they can't
tobbi__
Of course they can, for the lack of consequences.
leo
volunteers (and let's call them that because community members are both volunteers and employees) can lose the power they have
leo
losing power is a consequence!
leo
if a volunteer member of the reps council did some bad shit they could lose their position on the reps council
tobbi__
oh, great. What're you gonna do against 'feeling important' that community members might develop?
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leo
or if a module owner did something, they could lose that ownership
leo
I don't know
tobbi__
There's nothing you can do about it.
leo
accept that it's a normal human emotion and move on
leo
okay!
leo
let's not attempt to do anything about it then
tobbi__
It's threatening the equality of Mozilla.
leo
tobbi__: and?
tobbi__
It's threatening the values, because if we think we're more important we might convey it to others.
leo
but there's not way to stop that feeling important as you've just said!
tobbi__
...and that threatens the project itself and new members.
leo
so what are we going to do?
tobbi__
Getting rid of the structure.
tobbi__
That's the only sensible thing to do.
leo
and that's not going to work
leo
it's not sensible
tobbi__
eeh, senseful
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leo
it's batshit-crazy
tobbi__
Why?
leo
how would anything work if there was no leadership?
leo
anarchy doesn't work
tobbi__
How would we prevent the 'I'm more important than others' feeling and still keep leadership in place?
tobbi__
That should be the core question.
leo
well, as you've said, it's impossible to prevent the "I'm more important than others feeling" so let's not waste our time trying
tobbi__
If it's threatening the integrity of Mozilla, we should do something about it.
leo
but you've said that there's nothing we can do about it
leo
(other than resort to anarchy, which isn't an option)
tobbi__
Oh, there is: Make the structure less visible.
tobbi__
Don't tell community members they have influence.
tobbi__
Don't give them the feeling that they might have power.
leo
okay
leo
so
leo
we give community members power, but don't tell them
leo
how's that going to wor/k
leo
*work?
tobbi__
It's not. Which is why I'd prefer getting rid of that damn hierarchy.
leo
and replacing it with what?
leo
only employees being in positions of power within the community?
tobbi__
Possibly.
leo
*sigh*
leo
this discussion is going to circles
leo
s/to/in/