Sam Harris, intelligence, species variation, conservation

RenaissanceMan
Agreed. Harris is borderline stupid.
RenaissanceMan
That's not my fault.
11:42 RenaissanceMan
Actually, my philosophy is post-enlightenment. So I don't have a priori positions.
RenaissanceMan
Evil has been observed.
RenaissanceMan
Donald Trump.
RenaissanceMan
Also evil.
11:45 RenaissanceMan
Or stupid. One should never ascribe to evil that which can adequately be explained by stupidity.
RenaissanceMan
Our opposition has already taken that position. Which is why we are where we are right now.
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11:47 RenaissanceMan
Unfortunately, there are observed problems with relying on imaginary beings to define what is good and evil. Not the least of which is that nobody seems to agree on what imaginary beings say.
11:48 innit
RenaissanceMan: What makes Harris borderline stupid/
innit
?*
11:49 RenaissanceMan
Thacker: yes it is. Neccesarily, morality can only be defined in reference to a particular social group.
RenaissanceMan
innit: Inability to reason consistently.
innit
RenaissanceMan: Can you give a prominent example?
innit
I think it's clear Harris' IQ is above 150, though on political matters I find his analysis to often be fairly atrocious.
veganpancakes
The difficulty is that there is deep infiltration of our criminal justice and law enforcement systems by white supremacists
innit
Mostly regarding the nature of Western culture and capitalism in regards to violence v. the violence of other systems.
RenaissanceMan
innit: Sure. Read one of his books. Can you cite an example of Harris being brilliant?
veganpancakes
They’re also deeply embedded in the military
innit
RenaissanceMan: Yes, I can.
innit
RenaissanceMan: Sam Harris has had elite philosophy of mind philosophers on his podcast and kept up extremely well.
RenaissanceMan
innit: Go ahead.
innit
veganpancakes: The American nation is a failed nation state.
innit
It's the worst nation in the OECD by clear margins.
innit
The corruption in the American systems is so great and so overlapping that, at this point, it's impossible to undo, I think, without substantial crisis, i.e. >10x COVID-19.
veganpancakes
That there is such a huge disparity in perceptions of facts and reality between Pardison factions is a heavy indicator that Civil War is probably in our future
veganpancakes
Partisan
innit
If you look at Biden's appointments and comments, and remember he represents America's A-Teamt to Trump's white fascism, you can only conclude America is done.
veganpancakes
Sorry, dictating
RenaissanceMan
innit: If Sam Harris kept up surely that speaks to the brilliance of elite philosophy of mind philosophers (presumably Dennet).
veganpancakes
I agree
innit
veganpancakes: The United Stats is currently in a civil war.
veganpancakes
We really need a second republic, or possibly several smaller republics
RenaissanceMan
(who does have brilliant ideas)
innit
RenaissanceMan: Elite philosophy of mind philosophers will all have IQs above 140 -- yes.
innit
And Sam speaks to them as peers.
RenaissanceMan
Technically, a 4th republic, not a second one.
veganpancakes
innit, perhaps it’s a matter of degrees
innit
veganpancakes: It's a matter of what you conceptualize as paradigms of war.
innit
Most people think of the next American civil war in the 2nd-generation of warfare paradigm that was featured in the 1860s -- pitched battles between industrial nation states.
innit
In which case, the US has had only one civil war.
innit
But, that is not how wars are fought in the contemporary age.
innit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth-generation_warfare
innit
Complex and long term Terrorism (tactic) A non-national or transnational base – highly decentralized A direct attack on the enemy's culture, including genocidal acts against civilians. Highly sophisticated psychological warfare and propaganda, especially through media manipulation, internet trolls, bots and lawfare All available pressures are used – political, economic, social and military Occurs in low-intensity
innit
conflict, involving actors from all networks Non-combatants are tactical dilemmas Lack of hierarchy Small in size, spread out network of communication and financial support Use of insurgency tactics as subversion, terrorism and guerrilla tactics Decentralised forces
veganpancakes
The difficulty is that the war is being fought from within our institutions by our own leaders
RenaissanceMan
innit:  I'm not sure thinking you're a peer of brilliant people is actually a reliable indicator of IQ. Consider the Dunning-Kreuger effect.
innit
RenaissanceMan: You strawmanned my position.
innit
Do you see how?
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innit
veganpancakes: Trump is a neo-confederate president.
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RenaissanceMan
Thinking you're a peer of brilliant people is more properly an indication of borderline stupidity (according to actual studies).
innit
America under Trump is a 'What would happen if the confederacy had won?'
veganpancakes
innit It’s my believe that we should’ve let the south secede in the 19 century
veganpancakes
Belief
RenaissanceMan
innit: At least it is according to Dunning & Kreuger's studies..
innit
RenaissanceMan: I, too, am aware of the Dunning-Kreuger effect.
veganpancakes
They’ve hobbled our politics and social progress ever cents
veganpancakes
Since
innit
It's a heuristic based off evidence, not a probative mandate.
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RenaissanceMan
innit: Truly brilliant people are more likely to consider themselves inferior. Sez Dunning & Kreuger.
innit
RenaissanceMan: None of this has anything to do with anything I said.
innit
Question to be resolved: Does Sam Harris have brilliant moments?
innit
My position: Yes -- I have observed Sam Harris being a peer of elite philosophy of mind philosophers.
RenaissanceMan
innit: It TOTALLY says something about anything you said. Specifically your claim that Harris thinks he's a peer of Dennet.
innit
Your response: When a person claims THEY are brilliant, Dunning-Kreuger indicates they're probably dumb.
veganpancakes
She’s
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innit
Which is a non sequitur fallacy, given that X is claiming for Y that Y has brilliant moments, not that X is brilliant.
innit
RenaissanceMan: I never said that Harris thinks he is a peer of anybody.
RenaissanceMan
innit: It also applies to people who think they're qualified to declare who's brilliant and who isn't.
innit
That's your misreading.
veganpancakes
Bbl
innit
RenaissanceMan: I have pre-existing information that indicates my IQ is above 150.
RenaissanceMan
innit: You're just playing Wittgensteinian word games at this point..
innit
Therefore, I can trust my judgment to follow a conversation between two people and watching their multiple rounds of subsuming reciprocity which is an extremely strong indicator of peerdom.
innit
RenaissanceMan: Your current usage of Dunning-Kreuger makes it impossible for any person to ever describe any person as being brilliant.
innit
Which is clearly incorrect.
innit
Dunning-Kreuger, again, is about what the priors mean on claims of intelligence and expertise -- not the final truth of those claims.
RenaissanceMan
innit: And if you really had an IQ that high, you'd make the more proper claim: that you have pre-existing information that suggest your IQ is above 135. ;-P
Publios
RenaissanceMan:  is that true about brilliant people normally underestimating their intellect?
innit
RenaissanceMan: One of the sources is the GRE which, given its target audience of people considering graduate school, i.e. the average IQ of their population is >115 (see existing research on average IQ of people with bachelor degrees), the ceiling is above the traditional ceiling of 130-135 on standard IQ tests.
RenaissanceMan
Publios: I'm not sure honestly. I'd have to look up the original Dunning-Kreuger studies. I can't remember which kinds of expertise they studied specifically.
RenaissanceMan
innit: Right. 135 being about the ceiling of measurability of IQ.
innit
Furthermore, if one takes multiple tests on tests with ceiling of X, the more results which are above the average ceiling increases the posterior the true score is above the ceiling.
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RenaissanceMan
innit: Assuming the test are are reliable.
innit
RenaissanceMan: I disagree IQ has a ceiling of measurability of 135 -- I don't think that's what the research indicates.
Publios
GRE to IQ is decent comparison
innit
Standard IQ tests, who are designed for the general population, are specifically constructed to well-classify 95% of participants around the population mean, i.e. 70-130.
Publios
stanford binet IQ has a ceiling of around 145
Publios
you may be confusing that for 135, RenaissanceMan
RenaissanceMan
innit: probably time for both of us to go look at what the research says, then. :-)
innit
Publios: I think the Stanford-Binet has one of the higher ceilings of traditional IQ tests.
RenaissanceMan
Publios: Sure. But having a ceiling of 145 doesn't make it a reliable test at 145.
innit
Again, the mean IQ for GRE test takers is 115-125. Having a ceiling of 135 would mean you couldn't sort the upper 1/3 of test takers.
Publios
are you sure? I think 145 is the normal ceiling for stanford binet
Publios
sorry
Publios
anything above 145 is super genius tier
Publios
in the stanford binet
RenaissanceMan
145 being the point at which they are quite certain that the score no longer carries meaningful information, I think.
Publios
the thing about the GRE is that the math portion total score can easily be effected by studying
Publios
if you are a liberal arts major and haven't had to do math in 3 years besides college algebra you will score lower than normal if you didn't study up on math
Publios
RenaissanceMan:  yes, I think that's the best way to read it
Publios
if you score 145 and above, you are at such a tiny percentile, the differences are barely meaningful
d0gsoldier
merry xmas eve everyone
d0gsoldier
hope everyone has love and health this winter
innit
Verbal intelligence correlates more strongly with overall intelligence that mathematical and numerical intelligence. Sam Harris is extremely adept with language and, therefore, his IQ is very likely to be quite high.
bacon_Y
thank you d0gsoldier
innit
Also, Sam Harris says stupid things in political analysis.
innit
To pretend Harris isn't smart is indefensible, though, in my view.
innit
Harris' most stupid views are that he largely believes America has good intentions when it comes to foreign policy.
innit
(America is a murderous beast when it comes to foreign policy.)
d0gsoldier
im watching yule log on my smarttv
bacon_Y
:D
d0gsoldier
nice one nilla
d0gsoldier
or no ill nickname you vanna
bacon_Y
whatever floats your boat d0gsoldier
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d0gsoldier
eh
d0gsoldier
a lot floats my boat
RenaissanceMan
innit: Depends where you place the threshold for "borderline stupid", I suppose. :-P
Publios
is anyone arguing that Harris is stupid?
RenaissanceMan
innit: I think you can probably advance a strong argument that Harris's IQ is likely to be less than 135. Given that he got his doctorate from a degree mill.
Publios
I think Harris has bad takes on religion and politics but under 135 IQ?
Publios
RenaissanceMan:  what?
Publios
UCLA is not a degree mill
Publios
are you kidding
innit
I think there's an extremely low chance Harris' IQ is below 135.
innit
Publios: His claim about 'degree mill' seems indefensible.
Publios
a phd in neuroscience from UCLA is incredibly difficult
RenaissanceMan
Publios: The argument would go: typical IQ for somebody with a doctorate: 135 or higher. And Sam doesn't actual appear to be able to get a legitimate doctorate.
Publios
what?
Publios
Sam got his phd from UCLA
innit
Yes, the average IQ of people with a PhD is at least 135.
Publios
RenaissanceMan:  you may have some bad information. Harris got his PhD from UCLA
innit
(It's probably somewhat higher -- research I looked at two years ago put it >138.)
Publios
UCLA is an elite school
Publios
a PhD in neuroscience from UCLA is likely beyond anyone with an IQ under 138-140
Publios
on the stanford-binet
innit
Publios: Yes, I'd say it's either mean or above mean.
Publios
innit:  isn't it interesting that a higher verbal score on the GRE is harder than math? we commonly think math 'nerds' are smarter
innit
I went to UCLA for my undergraduate degree and spoke with many students. Sam Harris would be an extremely intelligent person on UCLA campus.
innit
He would be one of the smartest people I met on campus.
Publios
higher verbal score/verbal intelligence
Publios
I got a 164 on my GRE verbal
Publios
you have to be incredibly smart to get 165 and above
Publios
like unbelievably so
innit
Publios: When I was younger I was more of a math person and I thought that was the pinnacle of intelligence, but as I've gotten older and spent more time in philosophy and computer science, I've come to realize/believe that symbolic manipulation is most clearly correlated with overage, general intelligence.
innit
And language ability is a fairly complex version of that.
Publios
yes
innit
So it kinda makes sense to me at this point.
innit
Very nice @ 164
Publios
innit:  upon consideration it makes sense, but I find it amusing that popular consensus thinks that mathematical abilities signify the highest intelligence
Publios
but math has definite answers
Publios
verbal and symbolic manipulation often takes much more focus to make a definite point
RenaissanceMan
Ok. I stand corrected. Harris has a legit PhD. Just an extraordinarily bizarre doctoral thesis.
innit
I forget his thesis.
Publios
RenaissanceMan:  as usual, you display your high intelligence and willingness to review information :)
innit
What was it?
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innit
Publios: Yes, there is this strange math phobia/veneration in many cultures.
Publios
Math skills are very learnable. verbal, not so much
innit
Maybe it's that most people are around IQ 100 and to do more challenging mathematics you need a higher IQ -- say >120 which is out of reach for most people. And so all math above that level seems alien and incomprehensible and therefore indicative of extremely high IQs. However, people with IQ 100 can easily speak of course, and so they fail to realize how sophisticated language can get when used by authors and philos
innit
ophers.
RenaissanceMan
innit: Harris's doctoral thesis: "The moral landscape: How science could determine human values"
innit
Okay -- I forgot he has been working on that topic for so long.
RenaissanceMan
Dissertation for a doctoral thesis in Neuroscience that (scanning it now) seems to be completely experiment-free! Zero data.
innit
RenaissanceMan: Do you think the is-ought problem is substantial?
Publios
innit:  yes, good point. and it also makes me think that all the most famous and brilliant scientists in history are also verbal geniuses
innit
I've never felt it was nearly as substantial as some schools of philosophy indicate it to be.
RenaissanceMan
"The principal aim of this dissertation is to demonstrate that the boundarybetween science and human values is an illusion. The moment we see thatvalues depend upon the wellbeing of conscious creatures like ourselves andthat our wellbeing is lawfully related both to states of the world and to states ofthe brain, we will see that questions about values are really questions aboutfacts."
Publios
think of einstein, newton, hawking, oppenheimer, feymann, etc
innit
I agree with Sam Harris that what we call ethics is a subdomain of human knowledge where the principle considerations are physical and mental states of living beings, which are reasonably measurable.
innit
(This isn't necessarily material to the quality of his PhD thesis.)
Publios
RenaissanceMan:  consider that thesis defenses are in person and often can be manipulated by charismatic personae
Publios
I bet Harris was able to brilliantly, rhetorically so, defend his thesis
innit
I've previously given my model of what ethics is -- it begins with egoism in humans (the human understanding of ethics -- which ethics, a human term is deeply rooted in even though the fundamental story of ethics is expanding beyond human-only concerns) and branches out to other beings through a theory of mind and empathy.
innit
1. Dude, you better not hit me!
innit
2. Dude, I'm like you -- don't hit me either!
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innit
3. Your language ability indicates your mind is probably similar to mine: I agree it makes sense for me to not hit you as I do not wand to be hit.
innit
4. These people are saying that even though they're different than us in these regards, they still bleed if you prick them.
Publios
3. and 4. are the same
innit
5. Really? Is that so? Maybe they're right 'cause I didn't immediately realize I shouldn't hit you until you spoke like me.
Publios
imo
innit
Publios: I think they're separable given the history of racism and colonization programs.
Publios
and 5 is just 3 and 4 restated
innit
Publios: I disagree -- it's an expanding realm of consideration through increasing human variation.
Publios
those points should be subheaders of 3
RenaissanceMan
Ok. Two experiments: Experiment #2: The neural correlates of religious and nonreligious belief. And "Experiment #1: Functional neuroimaging of belief, disbelief, and uncertainty"
Publios
3 a, bc, and c
innit
3: People who are quite similar in cognitive style, culture, and language, even though people wouldn't yet have words for those.
Publios
3 a, b, and c
innit
Publios: You could do that if you consider (3) to be 'human ethics'.
innit
6: You know, as we've made mistakes in the past about which things shouldn't be hit, only being reactive until some groups of hit humans eventually convince us that they meet the standards of don't-hit through protest, language or art, perhaps we should create a proactive study to figure out which beings shouldn't be hit even if they don't tell us..
innit
7: Maybe non-humans 'n stuff don't like to be hit either, yeah?
innit
That is the history of ethics, in my view.
innit
What do you think, Publios?
RenaissanceMan
Briefly summarized by 1. Hey, that's not FAIR!!!
innit
RenaissanceMan: Sure.
Publios
innit:  you get too complicated after point 3
innit
Which then leads to the question of 'But, what is fair?' and then philosophy is borne into existence -- praise be.
Publios
you can summarize it better
RenaissanceMan
(fair being a lizard brain concept that the monkey brain backfills with all kinds of stuff)
Publios
I think basic 'I don't want to hurt you cuz you are like me' is the final point
Publios
point 3
RenaissanceMan
Right. Monkey brain stuff, like "philosophy". lol
innit
Publios: That isn't strong enough, in my view, because it's rooted in language and high rates of self-similarity.
Publios
all your other points, innit, are merely extrapolations of point 3
innit
And I'm anticipating veganism in point seven -- the pinnacle of human ethical orientation.
Publios
this is why the golden rule is so ubiquitous
Publios
or shamma's 'do not do to others which you do not wish to be done to you'
Publios
shammai
innit
Publios: I agree that the fundamental notion of ethics is "I don't want to hurt you because you're like me", but the history of 'like me' is very convoluted.
Publios
the end of ethics is...once you realize another person is like you...you don't want to hurt them
Publios
well
Publios
I suppose you expand ethics beyond that but not the way you did
Publios
point 4 could be: you may be like me but the things you are doing are unethical therefore I will kill you
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RenaissanceMan
And the unfortunate corollary: it's ok to hurt them as long as they're not like you.
icequeen81 pokes pokes pokes donco
innit
RenaissanceMan: Yes, as long as the 'like' references the essential nature of being in regards to "Don't hit me, bro".
innit
Which is not species identifier, skin color, gender, etc.
innit
But the neural correlates of suffering. ;)
innit
Sam Harris -- out of nowhere!
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innit
(Of course, maybe the neural correlates isn't big enough either, like racism in the past, but every computational mean has to be instantiated in a context.)
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innit
machine*
RenaissanceMan
Like those bacon eaters, for example. Or anyone who fails to amputate the last 1/2" of their penis. Totally not like us.
RenaissanceMan
That's the dangerous part of the lizard brain.
innit
Lizard brain is focused on shallow self recognition in the other, but monkey make it go deeper and more abstract.
RenaissanceMan
ForexTrader: Cool. If 42 is the answer, what is the question?
innit
Be like monkey.
innit
Super hairless monkey.
RenaissanceMan
ForexTrader: Nope. lol
RenaissanceMan
Good try though.
innit
To your point that we're not doing much beyond the lizard, I think we can have plenty of confidence beings which are contemplating the history of their species, the nature of evolution as creator of lizard and hairless monkey, and ecological considerations into the future are far beyond proto-mammals.
RenaissanceMan
(Interestingly, Douglas Adams was 27 when he wrote Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.
innit
Are we sophisticated enough to manage the power we currently have? No.
innit
Have we already killed most life on Earth since 1970? Sure.
innit
Are we likely to collapse our own global civilization? Of course.
innit
But, at least a few of us aren't disasters. Maybe we can create some art about hidden aliens giving us a second chance because we're not all disasters.
innit
*sips tea in cognitive science manner*
Publios
we are definitely evolved far beyond the lizard brain
RenaissanceMan wheels up the MRI.
innit
All religions are subsets of veganism -- change my mind.
Publios
the fact that we have had the means and ability to put the life of the planet in danger is evidence enough
innit
Publios: Great framing.
Publios
but evolution and natural selection also works in some obvious ways, and that includes the destruction of 'weaker' species
innit
You don't think we're smart -- look at bad we're messing everything up!
innit
how*
innit
You think I could do this if I was a moron? Not hardly.
Publios
innit:  that's one angle, and the other angle is, we aren't actually messing things up that badly
Publios
innit:  consider how much lions and the cheetah messed up local species
innit
How would you defend that second viewpoint?
Publios
cheetah is its own subspecies and it once had a number of family members
Publios
are all extinct
innit
Publios: Predator species' have a huge impediment if they become a global species and wish to be ethical and sustianable.
Publios
innit:  easy, sometimes peak predators just eliminate their food
Publios
ForexTrader:  I do not
innit
Prey/herbivore species are naturally more ethical, but they'd have to supplement with conservation science to reach a sustainable global community.
innit
Human ethical systems, outside of veganism, do not speak out this last point very much because they denigrate the non-human experience so much.
RenaissanceMan
ForexTrader: Anchovies?
Publios
innit:  I'd say humans are a predator primate that has impediments as you described
innit
Agreed.
RenaissanceMan
ForexTrader: And bacon!
innit
We're probably not as bad as if lions became the global species, but we're worse than if deer became the global species.
innit
Maybe only predators can become the initial global species.
innit
Then, maybe that species -- if it doesn't extinct itself -- can re-engineer ecosystems to favor naturally more peaceful animals like deer or re-engineer themselves to stop being predators.
innit
I was a non-vegan my whole life and a vegan for the last couple of years. It's hard to capture how much my viewpoint of humanity changed as a result of veganism.
innit
Essentially, almost all human history, art, culture, and social practices are like watching Nazis everywhere celebrate their Nazism, while having no idea anything like Nazis exist.
innit
(Humans are, on average, much more destructive than mere Nazis, so the comparison is unfair to Nazis.)
innit
(In regards to Nazis v. other humans)
innit
(It's likely that Nazis would have been even more destructive to the environment than regular humans, but regular humans conceptualize the evil of Nazis almost exclusively through their treatment of other humans.)
RenaissanceMan
innit: So wolves and deer populations cycle periodically. Wolves eat the deer; deer population goes down; wolf population follows; which allows the deer population to increase. In a cycle. The problem is moose. Moose are succeptible to Mad Deer Disease (a prion disease that moose catch from deer because the both graze in the same meadows).
RenaissanceMan
innit: So paradoxically, moose population cycles in phase with the wolf population. The more wolves there are, the more moose there are.
RenaissanceMan
So definitely not a good idea to be like deer if you like moose.
innit
RenaissanceMan: I agree those patterns exist, but it's not clear they work as the power of the dominant species continues to increase, nor is it desirable for human expectations.
innit
RenaissanceMan: No species on Earth is equipped to be a global species, clearly, with the best chance probably being in humans.
RenaissanceMan
Right. That's why we have hunting season.
innit
That doesn't mean we shouldn't copy extensively from other species, especially those that naturally don't go around murdering other beings.
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innit
There seem to be two primary goals for a global species that wishes to be ethical and sustainable: 1) Stop intentional violence like rape of women, killing of indigenous people, enslavement of people in your colonies, and 2) recognition of non-sustainable, but non-intentional acts which undermine sustainability.
innit
The second requires a lot of cognitive ability and only humans have a chance for it, but some species are much better at (1) naturally.
innit
And we should allow them to be our teachers, as they're superior to us in this regard.
innit
So, when people get all excited about plastics in the 1960s, or about GDP growth in 2020, I don't think they're doing it with the goal of hurting anybody, but it's a form of species-suicide.
innit
Deer won't necessarily help us with that, but they help us immensely when teaching our children to treat other humans with respect.
innit
Put another way: Had we been deer we'd only have (2) which is already very difficult. In reality, we also have (1) with the GOP intentionally hurting people because it demonstrates their divine superiority.
innit
And so they're not even contemplating how to be effective at (2) because they gotta 'get that money'.