Refute of Download/Crayray #501

#1
https://epicmafia.com/game/5834239/review

“Crayray is janitor, Download is blue. D1, Download outs with a random guilty. At the same time, Crayray outs with a guilty on Download.
Immediately she retracts, possibly because she realized Download is sheriff (as she guiltied someone who isn’t mafia)…..This is basically like scumclaiming here. Of course, the real cop counterclaims, and Crayray gets shot without much hesitation.It’s important to note here that journalism is lynched after, which is suboptimal because cop is still alive and reports are much needed. This disproves the theory that there might be rolesharing between them, at least at this point in the round, as Crayray would’ve just told Download who the other two mafia are. However, what Crayray did here could most definitely indicate gamethrowing or even meta abuse. This will be compared with other games later on in the round to prove or disprove this theory.”

Crayray tends to random guilt as mafia last round, so this was normal for her to do this. Clearly she guilted the sheriff though by the reports, so she changed the report obviously to not die. If she was throwing for Download, why change report when she would just get shot for a legit reason like guilting the sheriff? If download had not been sheriff there, download would likely get shot and this would kind of hurt her run.  I do not see how this is game throwing or meta abuse???  Crayray had a very bad play, but they tried to fix it so she would not get shot. If they were like working together, why would she shoot crayray so fast?


#2
https://epicmafia.com/game/5851937/review

“Download is journalist, Ray is blue. First thing Ray does is claim blue, out of nowhere. This apparently makes Download claim with no report on her. There is actually no reason to say this. She is not a cop report. She’s only clear of janitor, she could very well be lawyer or nilla. It’s illogical to protect her as she though she is an inno report or something, since from her point of view, janitor is most likely in cop claims anyway. Since the janitor fucked up, both her and his lawyer are shot/lynched, and only one mafia is left the following night. They fail to find last mafia until the last day.  This is extremely damning. For one, Download is clear journalist. Why leave her alive “because she is running” instead of going for 3 way no clear? This indicates Ray is not playing towards her win condition, but Download’s. And it’s very blatant that is the case. They lynch right, and Download wins.”

Cray like always claims blue as blue. I have lynched them for this even I think!!!!!   “why leave the journalist alive”-  normally you kill sheriff before the journalist so this argument is not that bad.  This type of meta that was used is fake, and I often lynch people for this, because its not genuine to say you would not kill the clear.


#3
https://epicmafia.com/game/5851870

“Download and Ray are both blue together.This is a game in which Download dies N3 and Ray has to carry the 3 way. Upon dying, Download immediately asks who the mafia is. She even pings Nobody, and asks for the last mafia over and over.Why answer like that? Why does she need to know so badly? She can just wait for the hammer. The thing is, right after Becomeclear is confirmed last mafia through graveyard, Ray starts hard appealing to Puppy, the other town.  After seeing Puppy doubts her still, she gets desperate and starts capsing. At the end, Puppy ends up giving up and hammers Becomeclear. Download wins.”

Download in gy thought that Become was mafia. Become did not vote the mafia the prior day at lylo. Puppy and ray were both clear by the fact that they could have hammered town and won there. Hence its kind of expected for them to fos mafia and tr each other….



#4
https://epicmafia.com/game/5846849/review

“Download and Crayray are both blues. Crayray gets extremely upset after cop mishammers her. This is where things get weird. Journalist is janned, but Crayray claimed Journ D1 as blue. After Crayray dies and has graveyard vision, she outs the cop’s real report. Only situation where this is plausible (except for a really, really good read) is if Crayray told her the mafia. It’s too much of a coincidence. She then retracts that report, and says she has two innos, but after realizing that won’t give her autowin. They proceed to lynch the nilla. Even the last day, Download is still claiming journalist, and after clearing the other town, they end up lynching right. All in all, this is a very damning game.”

This game is very strange, but this is not the first time that I have seen people claim pr as blue for so long. It’s a good way to get the prs to out, if they are alive.  I do this too for reactions, but I normally retract earlier, so I don’t like get lynched or something later!  Minie claimed to me that she learned this from Gerry and started doing it this round.

#5
https://epicmafia.com/game/5834286/review

“Download is N1’d, and Crayray proceeds to metaclear herself.  This is honest meta - She certainly does not kill Download, much less when she has proven that she’s playing towards her win condition over her own on this round. Nilla gets shot, and Crayray keeps going over the same thing to clear herself. The janitor is janned afterwards, and the game turns into town autowin.”

Cray claimed that she is meta clear for killing that.  Cray wanted the cop shot, but the sheriff shot mafia instead.  Rushian also said that they would not n1 download..  This game was auto town win because rushian carried and lynch 2 mafia day1 and both the cop and journalist were alive. On another account, crayray n1ed erza and then claimed meta clear too when it was not honest.

#6
https://epicmafia.com/game/5835247/review

“Download is sheriff, Crayray is journalist. In this game, it is Crayray who is N1’d. We don’t get to see whether Download tries to metaclear herself like Crayray did because considering she is autoclear, that’s not necessary. She performs a reaction test by guiltying Gerry as journalist. After doing so, she keeps asking for a journ counterclaim - This could be because she knows Crayray’s role so she wants one confirmed mafia from her point of view. For some reason, she shoots the inno. Gerry demands hammer and after going back and forth with her he actually gets it. Lawyer is lynched. At this point, Crayray has graveyard vision. Mafia kills Gerry, who is cleared blue, over cop. She asks for self votes, saying “I knew Gerry was blue”, which makes no sense because Gerry opened D1 with a random guilty and immediately retracted, which made him very scummy for the entire day until he cleared himself. She asks for selfvotes and quickhammers the janitor. For some reason, mafia kills sheriff and not cop, giving them town autowin again.”

Download was uncced journalist as sheriff and she was obviously trying to get the journalist to out.  I was in this game. I fossed gerry, but I had the other mafia and I got 1 lynched.  Unfortunately download hammered my townread first. This game was rather easy though, if you just base things off reads. Both the town and mafia were obvious.,,,


#7
https://epicmafia.com/game/5836598/review

“CoralineJones is blue, Download is mafia. In this game, CoralineJones outs as blue right at the start again. Download tries to metaclear herself by saying she would have N1’d Fading instead - She gets guiltied by cop.  Crayray starts pushing on Jeff who is real cop by saying Download is real, with no real reasoning I must add, when the logical thing to believe here is the cop with the guilty is the real one because mafia rarely random guilties in this setup to avoid guiltying sheriff. For some reason, the cop is shot, and of course that confirms both his cc and Download. After both confirmed mafia are lynched, CoralineJones starts tunneling Journalist, when the Journalist is most likely real as there were cop counterclaims:
 The problem here is that Coraline sort of slips, because she starts appealing to Shuper as though he is clear, when the previous day she scumread him - This means she actually knew Shuper is real Journalist, otherwise, the flip on him is unjustified. They keep NLing cause mafia keeps NKing, and it drags until D9. When day starts, and Fading is killed, she goes back to tunneling the journalist, who she’d treated as clear before. She votes Shuper and tells last mafia to vote whoever they like, which is not even playing towards her win condition, because if you’re sure of your read, you’ll try to convince who you think is town to vote with you. And if you’re unsure, you’ll at least try not to get lynched, because that automatically means a loss. Coraline is not trying to win this game at all. Mafia wins.”

11:33 coral starts pushing on the actual mafia. The next day she tunneled the journalist, but we all do that some games. It’s a bad read.



#8
https://epicmafia.com/game/5838972/review

“Download is sheriff, MurderBae is lawyer. MurderBae’s opening is this one, which literally makes no sense. There are journalist counterclaims and Download shoots wrong, to which MurderBae has a reaction which she would definitely not have if she flipped town. They lynch confirmed mafia after, and for some reason, that night, MurderBae forces NK when she sees her partner trying to kill Download. Both cops guilty her the following day, so she gets lynched, and without either alive, town wins in 4 way. The really suspicious part about this game is the way MurderBae forces NK because she doesn’t want to kill Download, which is actually the optimal move here because her partner is counterclaiming cop. MurderBae tries to act upset at endgame, but it’s obviously forced and not the same as when she gets upset when someone makes Download lose.”

Both mafia voted at the same time, and there was obviously no way to fix it. They were like ohhh no so probably was kicked. This was a mistake. While their choice in the kill was not best, it was probably just a bad play. Download was going to misshammer the cop, but the mafia (not murder) alive killed them, so this was more suspicious to me than what murder did….

#9
https://epicmafia.com/game/5839016/review

“Download is blue, MurderBae is mafia. In this game, Download quickly tries to appeal and meta clear herself. After this very suspicious interaction, she asks for the clear to hammer the lawyer. MurderBae even encourages it, by affirming over and over that all PRs are clear, and just with that she is all set for autoloss.”

Download tried to meta clear themselves, but this is fake meta I think.  The cop was completely clear, and the journalist was mostly clear so basically all the prs were clear. If they pushed on the pr there, they would have been lynched probably, so this was the optimal play. The lawyer here ISPed while everyone else helped, so they were the best lynch there. This has nothing to do with murder though, and murder did try to win in this basically auto game.



#10
https://epicmafia.com/game/5839035/review

“Download is blue, MurderBae is lawyer. After a long back and forth double CC of both PRs, both of them begin their meta abuse interaction again. But sheriff shoots cop. MurderBae has no reaction, when she has shown very aggressive reactions when they are both town and sheriff gets a lynch wrong. Also, she always reacts intensely when she is town and Download scumreads her, saying things like “you read me wrong again and we lose together”, but in this game, she doesn’t even respond when Download mentions her as a possible shot. She doesn’t say anything instead and votes confirmed mafia. This is absolutely true: When MurderBae is town, she never scumreads Download. She might out a soft read on her, but she changes it quickly or just treats her as obvious town. When Download is mafia, she just ignores her presence or tries to push on town instead. Download is very emotional, and keeps capsing, and most of the time, MurderBae fails to respond to that emotion. If both of them were town, they would not be tunneling each other this way. After a lot of arguing, Download finally realizes she is actually clear because she is the inno report and only lawyer is left. When this is revealed to MurderBae, she keeps appealing to Universal instead of backrailing to appeal to Download.

People tend to be very uncomfortable as mafia, and they become obvious by this fact. Clearly murder had a bad game here, but this is part of the game. If something suspicious was going on, then Cray would like never win over download…N1 murder tries to flip kill to Brenda, because Brenda would check Crayray and is a good clear. This shows clearly that Crayray was trying hard to win, even though Download was town and running.


#11
https://epicmafia.com/game/5852014/review

“Ray is sheriff, Download is lawyer. Ray opens the day claiming cop with inno on dead. It doesn’t work and she ends up admitting she is sheriff. For no reason, she shoots a random blue instead of shooting in cops, and then she hammers janitor.The following day, Download starts hard ateing Ray again. The fact she is even asking for hammer instead of letting her (sheriff) do it is scummy in itself, and it’s representative of the kind of relationship they have when playing. That is, most players would react in a way that screams “are you crazy? why would I give you hammer when I’m clear and you’re not?” but Download has no issues asking her because she knows Ray plays for her win condition and not her own. After a long day, Ray mishammers again, knowing she will not be alive the following day to mishammer. Actually, Download makes sure to remind her of this”

If she was not playing as town here, she could have even let her hammer. Sometimes when my reads are off, I let my tr hammer. Its part of playing the game. Being sheriff is hard. My reads are always bad as sheriff, and others struggle with this too. In general I think they played to their condition though. If I am not sure in cops, I normally will go in blues too, so we have more reports and you might end up getting the lawyer.



Missing games:

13.  https://epicmafia.com/game/5834130/review

Crayray and Download were mafia.  Nilla cced instead of jan, which is suboptimal. 3/8 chance of finding mafia with the live journalist so if anything Crayray doing this shows that she was not really trying to help Download so hard here.….

14. https://epicmafia.com/game/5836674/review
download was journalist and coral was blue. Town lost. Whitepimp killed two blues after cop was janned.   download starts town tunneling coral. 12:49 to download: “hope you are town and lose with me”. This game is a great example: 1. They were not role sharing. 2. They would foss each other.

15. https://epicmafia.com/game/5843024
murder blue and n1ed. Download mafia. Russian carries the game and town wins. If these two were like cheating, using meta, etc, why would she n1 a blue that “would not hammer her because she is running”

16. https://epicmafia.com/game/5843069

download in pregame was asking rrraaa to leave game because they mishammered previously. Download was mafia. Rrraaa blue. Download lead the n1 of rrraaa when rrraaa was blue. Download and RRRAaa then continue fighting alone in gy….  Obviously they are not doing anything bad here…







Refute of their conclusion section:
“There might be rolesharing in these games, but this is most definitely meta abuse. Download and Ray don’t push on each other when they are both town. When Download is mafia, Ray TR’s her. When Ray is mafia, Download can tell and pushes on her accordingly.”

There clearly is not rolesharing. Download mishammered enough as town, and she n1ed Crayray multiple times when Crayray was blue.  You mentioned that Download and Crayray never push on each other when they are both town, but this is clearly wrong (https://epicmafia.com/game/5836674/review).  Additionally, Crayray beat Download in numerous games, showing that they do kill each other.  Minie is a good player, and many people can’t read her. I do not know how many times I have tried to get her lynched when she is mafia, but town refuses to do this.  Not being able to read someone, is not rule breaking at all.

“There are no games in which they mishammer or hard push on the other as town. If there is a scumread between them, unless Ray is mafia, it is very soft and they take it back very soon. “

Again read this game to refute this claim: (https://epicmafia.com/game/5836674/review)

“Ray only tryhards in games when she feels she can make Download win by doing so. If they are opposite alignments, she doesn’t try at all, and will even give up easily. Ray is, most definitely, not playing towards her win condition, as proven in this pastebin. There is no reason for her to change and adapt her playstyle so much unless she is doing it according to what they both flip. Download even spends several minutes asking Ray if she is mafia in several games, and also, Ray only hardclaims blue when she actually is.“

If this was true, then Crayray would not have beat download in many games.  Crayray plays consistently in games. They had good games and bad games, but they are human like the rest of us.





My Conclusions/Summary:

This original paste bin is BS. In general most of the games given have explanations stretched.  For example, in game 1 they push on Crayray guilting download and changing the report as mafia. She guilted the gunned clear though, so changing the report was optimal. Crayray tried hard to win this game clearly, as she changed her report to not die, but download had good reads. In game 10, you see that she tries to flip the night kill to one of the best town that always is on her, and this again shows that they played to win, even when they were on opposite teams. Bad plays are not rule breaking at any level.  The only specific game discussions in this bin that I think have some legitimacy are 4 and 8. Game 4 is very strange, but I think that you have to give download the benefit of the doubt here, as I have seen blues several times claim prs for most of the game (pranay and gerry are examples that I remember right off). In game 8, I think that mafia just made a mistake by not saying the kill before kicks and they both voted at the same time. This was a bad play. I find it more suspicious though that the unrelated mafia killed someone that was for sure going to misshammer in cops the next day. This has nothing to do with Crayray though!!!!!!!

Additionally you neglected to give the games that refute the claims in the bin, like the examples of download N1ing the blue Crayray in multiple games and download town vs town tunneling crayray.

The verdict on the end ended up being due to meta abuse, but I think that the little that this is done did not affect the games. Most of the meta used was Crayray and download clearing or accusing each other based off meta. This really does not affect the outcome of the games much though in my opinion. I think that it becomes more of an issue if you have like a 3 way with both of them in it or large groups of people clearing each other over the n1 kill. In a game of like 9 people, 2 people meta clearing or fossing each other does not really affect things. Meta clearing yourself is typically a scum tell, if you do not know the people so it works in the opposite way typically. I often hammer people for meta that I think is not genuine, and it often seems like its fake.  The only instances where it might be more of an issue is when Download is the sheriff or hammering. This does not always work though.  In game 1, download was sheriff and I was pr. I tried to use meta that I would not claim there late as mafia, and Download knows very well that I do not do this, but she still shot me so meta does not always work.

Russian, myself, and at least 1 person per game uses some sort of meta, so I am not sure where the line is with this to be honest.  I have seen large groups of friends play together and all use meta if one dies, and this ends up in a mafia auto loss.  Something like this I can understand as being meta abuse. Other times these friends actually were mafia and mafia wins though.  I personally will use real meta a fair amount. As an example I would say that I had no reason to cc cop there late.  This is a genuine argument from me as to why I am real, but I am often mishammered as the clear still thinks that its fake and often it was because I used this meta.  Due to the fact that meta is often viewed as a scumtell, I do not think 2 people clearing each other can really affect the game outcome unless one of them is hammering, but then again download shooting me is evident that meta clearing friends can still be viewed as fake.

Download and Crayray played 23 games together across different accounts, and this corresponds to 45% of their games.  Crayray beat Download in 3 games.  Even if meta did affect like 1-2 games, which I do not think it did, this would not greatly affect the outcome of Download’s run.