Justification of attack on Iran with Jinx

Jinx
honestly the evidence against Iran so far seems pretty damning, but i guess it wouldn't be the first time we were tricked by an administration :)
Jinx
this is why it's so important to have someone in the presidency who isn't all bluster
Jinx
then threats mean something
Jinx
ironically that's largely seen as one of Obama's biggest failures: the Syrian red-line
Jinx
personally i blame congress though--iirc he sought congressional approval in effort to curb the excess authority of the old terrorism authorization act
Jinx
frankly, Obama did everything he could to preserve norms--and this is at least one example where he restricted his own power in deference to the constitution
Jinx
anyway
Jinx
my point is simply that any threat ("locked and loaded") from Trump is going to be largely meaningless to Iran
Jinx
all Trump has done is fuel the hard-liners to say "see, we can't possibly negotiate with the USA"
infspire
What evidence?
Jinx
frankly he's backed himself into a corner where the only retaliatory solution is a bombing--a very dangerous prospect
infspire
Nothing from the Trump administration is evidence.
infspire
Remember, he sharpied a weather map.
Jinx
heh
Jinx
that's why i put the caveat above :)
Jinx
("but i guess it wouldn't...")
infspire
Jinx: It doesn't matter if Iran provided aid.
infspire
You see that, right?
infspire
I can detail the argument, if not.
Jinx
from the map i saw, Iran didn't just provide aid--it launched the missiles from its own territory
infspire
I have seen no claims of that.
infspire
Citation?
Jinx
iirc it was on either PBS or Amanpour last night
Jinx
i can try to search if you like
infspire
Yes, please.
16:22 infspire
1. SA has been waging a genocidal war against Yemen
infspire
2. Yemen has a legal and more right to defend itself
16:23 infspire
3. The US has been supplying SA with massive amounts of weapons for years in this genocide
16:23 Jinx
moral right?*
infspire
4. The attack on the oil refinery killed very few people
infspire
moral, yes
Jinx
eh
infspire
5. If Iran supplied the weapons, they'd still be far less culpable than the US, given (3).
Jinx
i don't condone Saudi Arabia at all
Jinx
but i also don't think two wrongs make a right
infspire
Conclusion: There's no justification for attacking Iran, even if they supplied the weapons.
infspire
Jinx: You're not doing partial good when you hold only the weaker party accountable @ two wrongs.
Jinx
the justification would be to maintain international norms
infspire
You're just creating more harm.
infspire
The ones the US isn't following?
Jinx
i.e. you don't just invade/bomb another country without some international consensus
infspire
The US should strike Iran for doing a lesser version of what the US is doing?
infspire
How is that remotely coherent?
Jinx
i don't claim the US is faultless :)
infspire
The US can play no role whatsoever in this situation.
Jinx
again: two wrongs don't make a right
infspire
I reject your meme.
infspire
I told you why.
Jinx
it's not a meme... iirc it's an aphorism :)
infspire
Aphorisms are types of memes.
Jinx
"a pithy observation that contains a general truth"
infspire
It's a quick, consolidated piece of information that has some utility. I am arguing it doesn't apply here.
Jinx
if you go by that, then any idea is "a meme"
infspire
I disagree.
Jinx
"an element of a culture or system of behavior that may be considered to be passed from one individual to another by nongenetic means, especially imitation."
infspire
"This sentence that is self-referencing in the conversation with Jinx on 2019 Sep 19 is an idea." is an idea, but not a meme.
infspire
It is not a highly replicated idea.
infspire
Aphorisms are.
Jinx
eh
infspire
I am ware of your meme/heuristic.
Jinx
that really exaggerates the classification of "meme"
infspire
I reject it.
infspire
I reject it on the basis of philosophy and justice after observing how power defends itself in human societies.
Jinx
heh
infspire
I think when there are two parties, both with grievances, only applying accountability to the weaker party is unjustified.
Jinx
i'm not arguing the US should "go it alone"
infspire
I think it leads to a worse situtation.
Jinx
but i am arguing that there certainly needs to be some sort of consequence for any attack of that magnitude
16:28 infspire
I am arguing the US has no moral authority whatsoever to do anything whatsoever to Iran in this context.
infspire
So Iran should attack the United States, then.
infspire
This is your argument.
infspire
It's wildly incoherent.
Jinx
probably, yes--if they really feel they have been "attacked"
infspire
You support Iran attacking the US to uphold international norms by supplying weapons to SA.
Jinx
(they call our sanctions "economic terrorism")
Jinx
...
Jinx
i don't think i mentioned anything about SA?
infspire
And since the US is about 1000 times more guilty, you support 1000 times more attacks on the US by Iran than the traitorous Trump administration is contemplating.
Jinx
in my justification, at least
infspire
"i.e. you don't just invade/bomb another country without some international consensus"
Jinx
i do generally believe in proportionality, yes
infspire
You haven't provided evidence Iran has done this.
infspire
Your claim is inconsistent with the warhawks in the Trump administration.
infspire
Who have *only* claimed the provided the advanced drone technology to Yemeni fighters.
Jinx
well perhaps if you weren't spouting off about memes and flooding the channel with repetition, i'd have a chance to search for a link :)
infspire
Jinx: When you behave poorly, you lose authority.
infspire
Example.
infspire
Rape is wrong and people doing raping should be held accountable.
infspire
So, normally, a police officer would play a role in that accountability.
infspire
So, saying a police officer has raped 573 people in the last 5 years.
infspire
That's the first wrong in your heuristic.
Jinx
unfortunately, even the PBS website won't cooperate with my old browser, and my computer is in no situation to launch the (comparatively) new one
infspire
Then, there's a guy in town that has been alleged have done their second rape.
Jinx
...
Jinx
you aren't making coherent arguments
infspire
We would never, ever, ever, want to encourage the rapist police officer to play any part whatsoever in the accountability for that second rapist.
infspire
I am, of course.
infspire
As I am a brilliant philosopher.
Jinx
...
infspire
My argument is extremely straightforward.
Jinx
okay, i guess we're done here
Jinx
let me know when you want to have a real converstion
infspire
Instead, what would you do?
infspire
You'd remove the police officer from any and all power for their crimes.
infspire
Then, independently and unrelatedly, you'd also go after the second rapist.
infspire
If you did not hold the police officer accountable, and only went after the second rapist, you'd be making things worse (this is not so clear in this analogy).
infspire
Jinx: What was incoherent about my argument?
infspire
I made a claim your argument was incoherent and then detailed what that was.
infspire
Specifically, that you'd never support Iran bombing major American cities for the US involved in the SA war against Yemen.
infspire
Even though that is entailed by support the US attacking Iran in the present context.
infspire
The unilateral leaving of a conversation is a fairly large violation of conversational dynamics.
infspire
It violates norms on the psychology and emotion of human conversations, as well as epistemic norms about evidence and truth telling.
infspire
Jinx: I put you on ignore for your unilateral leaving of a conversation without clear communication.
infspire
I will have that ignore be 72 hours at this time.