<+NuclearW> mbaxter, do new version of VanishNoPacket not use Spout?
<+NuclearW> Or is that just a goal?
<+mbaxter> Goal.
<+NuclearW> I'm catching up with my znc buffer, still reading through #spout
<+NuclearW> You get a lot of nay-sayers?
<+mbaxter> No, just the occasional user who says spout doesn't work.
<+NuclearW> Ah
<+NuclearW> I'm wondering how much we can learn from the "noobs" who complain about Bukkit on the Spout forums...
<+NuclearW> Some common complaints, but I have no solutions.
<+mbaxter> Not much, honestly. They're all there following hype, with very few solid rational arguments. Yes, there are some issues with bukkit but the spout forums are not going to be a reliable source of discussion on the topic
<+NuclearW> Nah not talking about the hype as much
<+NuclearW> Talking about people like this: http://forums.getspout.org/threads/want-to-start-developing.633/
<+NuclearW> The people who are learning, but seem to have issues with Bukkit while learning.
<+NinjaGrinch> lol
<+NuclearW> Now, in that case I suppose it's that he doesn't know Java, and that's bad enough.  But fact of the matter is people do learn Java for Bukkit, so I wonder...
<+NuclearW> Hi NinjaGrinch
<+NinjaGrinch> Hiya :p
<+NuclearW> Just wondering aloud here
<+NuclearW> It's sort of nice to see people who go to the spout forums to complain, as to them it's a more open place to do just that.  People complain about Bukkit there, people complain about Spout here.
<+NuclearW> I suppose it makes for more honest feedback, but that's just a thought.
<+NinjaGrinch> I find that people like to complain for the sake of complaining.
<+NinjaGrinch> Doesn't matter what it is.
<+NinjaGrinch> or what they are complaining about.
<+NuclearW> Oh naturally
<+NuclearW> But that doesn't mean we have to discard all complaints out of hand.
<+NuclearW> I think there's something to be learned here, and I intend to learn it.
<+NinjaGrinch> :p
<+SwearWord> I don't get it
<+SwearWord> Why are people using Bukkit forums to talk about spout
<+SwearWord> It's like going onto getspout.org and posting about Bukkit features
<+SwearWord> Just awkward.
<+mbaxter> SwearWord: You really don't see why?
<+NuclearW> People do it because they feel safer.
<+mbaxter> It's to gather more people to go over to spout.
<+SwearWord> Well
<+NinjaGrinch> Talking about it and bitching about it are not the same thing :p
<+NuclearW> Someone goes to Spout to complain about Bukkit because Bukkit staff (excepting MonsieurApple) aren't there.
<+NuclearW> And vice-versa
<+SwearWord> mbaxter: I guess that question was me sarcastically asking the people posting
<+SwearWord> Someone go register EvilSeph's nick
<+SwearWord> and start spamming SPOUT SUCKS
<+NinjaGrinch> LOL
<+SwearWord> Or better yet
<+SwearWord> do it with Tahg's
<+NuclearW> Is there even a Spout user with that username?
<+NinjaGrinch> If I were stupid enough to try that I'd use Grum's (sorry Grum).
<+SwearWord> I checked the other day
<+SwearWord> And it was available
<+NuclearW> Hmm
<+NuclearW> I almost feel like to stop idiots we ought to register ourselves there...
<+NuclearW> Oh well, trolls will be trolls
<+SwearWord> Naw if it happens it will be done unsubtly
<+SwearWord> and it will be hilarious
<+NuclearW> Perhaps
<+NuclearW> Anyway, community degradation.  Commonly used line from people on Spout, something I sort of agree with.  Is it a valid issue we should consider taking on?
<+SwearWord> I blame not using bukkitdev
<+SwearWord> It just gives everything an in limbo, senioritis feel to it
<+NuclearW> I've been blaming it mostly on dilution with non-developers
<+NuclearW> People see Spout as a much more mature and intellectual community because at the moment it is, it's mostly developers.  Sort of like people say Bukkit was back in the beginning.
<+NuclearW> And BukkitDev needs to get fixed
<+SwearWord> Oh well.
<+NinjaGrinch> BukkitDev.. I do not really care for it. It feels half-assed to me. Thats just my opinion though.
<+SwearWord> I don't get how it can seem half-assed when we previously had forum threads
<+NuclearW> I think if we set up our new tag system fairly soon we can perhaps foster a more intellectual area of the forums, even if just Plugin Development and Bukkit+
<+NuclearW> SwearWord, people like the forum system.
<+SwearWord> Just like people like the old facebook
<+NuclearW> I like the forum system (not maintaining it, mind you)
<+NuclearW> But BukkitDev has valid issues
<+SwearWord> Everytime there's an update
<+SwearWord> yeah it does
<+SwearWord> But it's better than the forums
<+NuclearW> So those need to be fixed.
<+SwearWord> Considering it HAS the forums
<+NuclearW> At the moment I don't feel it is better.
<+NinjaGrinch> I agree with NuclearW, I do not feel it is better at the moment either.
<+NuclearW> It lacks the alerts and a proper subscription system, to very important features of the forums.
<+NuclearW> Administrators will subscribe to threads of plugins they use, and developers literally get an alert for everything realted to their plugins.
<+NuclearW> These are very important things to have
<+NuclearW> I know you've given up on plugin development SwearWord, but I know I don't prefer BukkitDev for my plugins.
<+SwearWord> Well I had auto pushing from jenkins to bukkitdev setup, and issue tracker in github
<+SwearWord> I preferred that over forums
<+NuclearW> Not everyone knows how to nor has the resources for that.
<+NuclearW> And if that's what makes it so great then why isn't that part of BukkitDev itself?
<+SwearWord> So the problem with BukkitDev is people don't know how to use it. I get the alerts are shitty, that's why I had to close the forum section
<+SwearWord> bleh oh well
<+SwearWord> I still thinking moving to BukkitDev NOW is better than what we have now
<+NuclearW> We need alerts before we can move over.
<+SwearWord> Random limbo here some stuff is on BukkitDev
<+SwearWord> and some is on forums
<+NuclearW> I would also love to force Forum mode on
<+SwearWord> No idea where you're supposed to look
<+NuclearW> We've put off moving to BukkitDev completely because of no alerts.
<+SwearWord> That coupled with no more new and exciting MC updates has been pretty bad
<+NuclearW> We have no alerts because Curse isn't adding them.
<+SwearWord> Yeah I know
<+SwearWord> the alerts is a problem
<+NuclearW> So we need to communicate that we're waiting for Curse.
<+SwearWord> No we don't
<+SwearWord> Guess what that's gonna start
<+SwearWord> :P
<+NinjaGrinch> I think we do, and should.
<+NuclearW> And I really have no idea of the money involved, but if Curse can't be bugged to do things that we need for our community, we should strongly consider moving from Curse.
<+NinjaGrinch> Why keep everything so secretive, especially since its something that people should know.
<+SwearWord> "Guys we're stuck in limbo because we're waiting for curse"
<+NuclearW> NinjaGrinch, the problem is all we really have to say is "Well, we're waiting on Curse"
<+SwearWord> -> "ffffucckkkk curssseeee evillll"
<+SwearWord> nty
<+NuclearW> Spout is doing a lot of work, but do we really want their killer app being "Working plugin management system"?
<+NinjaGrinch> I suppose. At least remove that damn header in the plugin section that says we are phasing out the forum system since I don't think thats happening any time soon.
<+NuclearW> It's still in the plan, it just needs to specify that we're waiting, and that we can't really do anything
<+NinjaGrinch> Well Spout does do one thing better in my opinion, they are more open about things. They keep people more aware of whats going on. At least thats how I feel.
<+NuclearW> Our hands are tied, and that's a bad situation to be in
<+NuclearW> NinjaGrinch, I fear that a feeling may be all it is.
<+NuclearW> I mean, I can't know.
<@Rigby> FYI -- We have a staff section on the forum for you to voice these concerns.
<+NinjaGrinch> I know.
<+NuclearW> Rigby, would you prefer we post on the forums over conversations in IRC?
<@Rigby> If it was one or the other then yes.
<@Rigby> However both would be nice.
<+SwearWord> How is yes an anser to that question LOL
<+NuclearW> At any rate, I'm not so sold on Spout, but that's my personal opinion.
<@Rigby> Because he asked if I'd prefer posting on the forums to talking on IRC...
<@Rigby> Soooo my response is 'Yes'
<@Rigby> Thats how it's an answer to his question.
<+NuclearW> I also fear their current structure will not stand under the amount of users we have
<+SwearWord> Rigby: oops misread over as or
<+NuclearW> Well I suppose I can better formulate some of my thoughts and post this a bit later.
<@Rigby> Well NuclearW last time I saw they struggled to keep their site and services up when just running a plugin...
<@Rigby> They intend to make spout auto report crash reports and stacktraces to their site...
<@Rigby> The amount of traffic that would involve...
<+NinjaGrinch> They've gotten that under control I believe. It was more or less their hoster bailed.
<+SwearWord> They have good web people
<+SwearWord> I know that.
<+SwearWord> Just bad timing
<+NinjaGrinch> I believe they hit 2TB traffic and their hoster bailed on them, they found someone who was willing to take it.
<+NuclearW> Rigby, indeed.  But I'm more talking about their administrative and staff policies.
<+NuclearW> If they are going to be competition, even if a friendly sort, I see no reason we staff should be a reason for someone to pick Spout over Bukkit or vice versa
<+NinjaGrinch> Huh?
<+NuclearW> If Spout is going to be competition, then complaints about us staff should be reduced by as much as possible.
<+NinjaGrinch> Publicly yes.
<+NuclearW> We don't want people to say "Well the staff at Bukkit are jerks, I will use Spout"
<+NinjaGrinch> Well I don't know.
<+NinjaGrinch> Everyone, including staff should be able to voice their opinions.
<+NinjaGrinch> As long as its in a nice manner.
<+NuclearW> Yes, I agree.
<+NinjaGrinch> Something like "Spout just sucks, don't bother using them" isn't exactly friendly.
<+NuclearW> I've never said that we shouldn't?
<+NuclearW> I never said we should say that either?
<+NinjaGrinch> I never said you did now did I?
<+NinjaGrinch> Why are you implying that I did say you did.
<+NuclearW> Because I'm confused now
<+NuclearW> Anyway.
<+NinjaGrinch> >.>
<+NuclearW> When I'm blabbing like this it's because I'm openly thinking.
<+NuclearW> My general point is that if there is something we can learn from Spout, we should.  And that as staff we should strive to be the best we can be.  However
<+NuclearW> However I don't know what exactly we can do to help facilitate that.
<+NuclearW> Perhaps, we aren't even doing much anything wrong, but first we need to identify any issues we might be having.
<+SwearWord> Why bother with ANY of it
<+SwearWord> just ignore
<+NuclearW> And the point I was making was that perhaps by looking at the Spout forums we can identify some of the things we're doing wrong, if we are.
<+SwearWord> Giving attention is so bad
<@EvilSeph> NinjaGrinch, why are you making excuses for them?
<+NuclearW> Because you don't learn by ignoring it.
<+NinjaGrinch> EvilSeph, I am voicing my opinion. Nothing more.
<+NuclearW> We can't very well wish Spout away.
<+NinjaGrinch> If that is not alright then please say so.
<+SwearWord> What?
<+SwearWord> Just ignore it
<+SwearWord> And it'll be fine
<+NuclearW> SwearWord, why ignore Spout?
<+NuclearW> Because ignoring something and hoping it goes away isn't how you deal with something.
<+SwearWord> Because if they keep posting about their theoritical features and no one says "buttttt" they go away
<+SwearWord> If we address it somehow, then we're taking them seriously
<+NuclearW> We don't have to publicly state anything we're doing.
<+NuclearW> But to simply ignore them seems immature at best.
<@EvilSeph> NinjaGrinch, how is making excuses for them voicing your opinion?
<@EvilSeph> you're clearly defending them - that's not an opinion
<+SwearWord> Spy
<+NinjaGrinch> In your eyes I was defending them, in mine I was simply voicing my opinion. Last I checked I was allowed to do that.
<+NuclearW> To be honest I don't see the defense he's making for them?
<@EvilSeph> you haven't been here the whole day actively reading
<+NuclearW> I've been away here and there, but I don't recall...?
<+NinjaGrinch> I've barely spoken in here today aside from this current conversation.
<+SwearWord> I remember Grum telling you to hit ninjazidane in real life
<+NinjaGrinch> Yeah :p
<+NuclearW> Okay I remember that
<+NinjaGrinch> That was when he asked why we were on the same IP.
<@EvilSeph> every time we talk about Spout, you're there defending them
<+NinjaGrinch> Everytime we talk about spout I say what I think.
<+NinjaGrinch> Again, last I checked I was allowed to.
<@EvilSeph> we fuck up with the website all the time, and we take responsibility for it...I've never made an excuse for our incompetence
<@EvilSeph> the fact is, Spout are ill-equipped to handle being large
<+NuclearW> I agree on that last point
<@EvilSeph> this is pretty much undisputable - just look at their handling of things
<@EvilSeph> and yet you blindly defend them
<@EvilSeph> I am also entitled to say whatever I think, by the way.
<+NinjaGrinch> That you are. :p
<+SwearWord> I'm not :/
<@EvilSeph> it just seems like you're such a fanboy whenever Spout comes up
<@Rigby> In that case I'm entitled to say the following -
<@Rigby> _-_-_-_-_,------,
<@Rigby> -_-_-_-_-|   /\_/\
<@Rigby> _-_-_-_-~|__( ^ .^)
<@Rigby> -_-_-_-_-""  ""
<+NinjaGrinch> But it was true that they hit 2TB and their hoster bailed.
<@EvilSeph> that's irrelevant...
<+NinjaGrinch> Its the truth.
<@EvilSeph> we've hit much more and nothing went down
<@EvilSeph> because we were prepared
<@Rigby> NinjaGrinch -- Is it? I heard something completely different :P
<+SwearWord> Well you take responsibility for it either way
<+NinjaGrinch> I'm going on what I was told but nothing more.
<@EvilSeph> 'their web guys are good' sounds like blindly defending them
<@Rigby> One of their scripts was taking up more than it should on a shared box :P
<+SwearWord> That was me who said that
<+NinjaGrinch> I never said 'their web guys are good'.
<+SwearWord> I was talking about top_cat
<+SwearWord> he does nice css/js
<+NinjaGrinch> Where and when did I say that?
<@EvilSeph> my apologies, I was mistaken about that
<+SwearWord> Basically I'm a fanboy.
<+SwearWord> http://spoutcraft.org/ it's shitty for user friendliness, but attention to detail is nice
<+SwearWord> You can even drag around the window
<@EvilSeph> I just grow wary of people who vehemently defend what could be our competition
<@Rigby> SwearWord -- A screenshot and 3 mouse overs? :P
<+NinjaGrinch> I cannot like Bukkit's competition?
<+SwearWord> Rigby: it's a lot more than that :P
<@Rigby> + thats months old when SpoutCraft was first started.
<@Rigby> and has never been completed ;P
<@Rigby> like Fill ;)
<+SwearWord> Yeah I know
<+SwearWord> It's still cool
<@EvilSeph> it can and usually does cause a rift among the team, which leads to a disrupt in productivity and morale
<@EvilSeph> I never said that, please don't put words in my mouth
<+NinjaGrinch> I didn't. It was a question.
<@EvilSeph> why is it that everything you're saying seems filled with attitude...
<+NinjaGrinch> You are the one who jumped on me with fanboy accusations and saying I always defend them.
<+NinjaGrinch> When all I do is speak my opinion.
<+SwearWord> You do though
<@EvilSeph> you're the one who admitted that you're a fanboy... and you do always defend them
<+NinjaGrinch> I never said I was a fanboy..
<+NinjaGrinch> Unless you are referring to my comment to Grum.
<+NuclearW> SwearWord is the fanboy
<+SwearWord> C# <3
<+NuclearW> The Top_Cat fanboy
<@EvilSeph> I am referring to your comment to Grum
<+NinjaGrinch> If I recall right, I said I am surprised he didn't call me a fanboy over anything.
<@EvilSeph> you basically said "I'm not a fanboy, I just x" which is posturing
* @EvilSeph shrugs
<+NinjaGrinch> Just what?
<@EvilSeph> it's not important, you're not going to change your mind
<+NuclearW> Well.
<+NinjaGrinch> Nor are you.
<@Rigby> "Quit (Quit: ~ InspireNXE.com - Inspiring New eXperiences | getspout.org - Improving Minecraft every day! ~)"
<+NinjaGrinch> This conversation seems pointless due to both facts.
<@EvilSeph> but I don't appreciate the lack of respect and attitude you're showing towards us
* @Rigby whistles
<+SwearWord> Rigby: wwho was that?
<+NuclearW> I still think we can try to learn something from the people who've jumped ship or are picking Spout as a starting point.  If only for what started them down that path.
<@Rigby> That's Ninjas quit message :P
<+SwearWord> LOL
<@EvilSeph> NuclearW, naturally.
<+SwearWord> He's a prostitue
<+SwearWord> Are people really jumping ship for reasons other than "it's new" and new opportunity to be someone in a community?
<+NinjaGrinch> EvilSeph, I wouldn't have given you an attitude or shown you any disrespect if you didn't just jump in out of nowhere and bash on me.
<+NuclearW> I should also note I've taken to reading the Spout forums for people who are like that and messaging them privately.
<@EvilSeph> I asked you a simple question and you got defensive
<+NuclearW> I really thing the "safety" feeling people get from just being on a different site helps to get more accurate feedback
<+NinjaGrinch> I felt like my right to my opinion was being violated.
<+SwearWord> Safety?
<+NinjaGrinch> Because is sure felt that way.
<+NuclearW> SwearWord, the feeling of safety fostered by a different staff set.
<+SwearWord> Oh oh
<+NinjaGrinch> When I joined I was told I was a community member first, staff member second.
<+SwearWord> I get it
<@EvilSeph> your right to opinion?
<@EvilSeph> I already stifle that...
<+NuclearW> NinjaGrinch, that's a rare example of EvilSeph being sarcastic.
<+SwearWord> I still think it's just...hype and seeming opportunity
<@EvilSeph> no, I am being serious
<+NuclearW> SwearWord, a lot of it is.
<@EvilSeph> you all agreed to represent the project appropriately
<@EvilSeph> that's your 'right to opinion' already stifled
<+NuclearW> But there are some gems to be had.
<+NinjaGrinch> I can voice my opinion and still be approrpiate about it.
<+NinjaGrinch> appropriate*
<+NuclearW> Ah, that.  Well I don't see that as really stifling opinion, I just get a different set of people to complain to
<+SwearWord> Like, omg I can pull request something and be staff omfg!
<@EvilSeph> you can't, actually..that's for me to decide
<+SwearWord> Or, I can talk about it a lot and become staff!
<+NinjaGrinch> Right..
<@EvilSeph> there are obviously some things I forbid staff from getting involved in - like Drakia drama
<+NuclearW> SwearWord, that's the sort of thing we don't want to so much take into consdieration.
<+NinjaGrinch> I do not believe I was around when that unfolded.
<+NuclearW> It's stuff like what I linked before, people choosing Spout for a "starting" point
<+SwearWord> Either way if Spout becomes a problem, my cousin knows a guy
<+NuclearW> His name is Vinnie, right?
<@EvilSeph> nothing any staff member can say will probably be appropriate when it comes to Drakia drama
<@EvilSeph> but I generally don't stop you from speaking your mind
<+NuclearW> Well to be fair there isn't much left to be said on that particular issue
<@EvilSeph> however, when doing so agitates several people on staff...and you don't have a foundation for your statements...
<+NinjaGrinch> So in essence you are saying..?
<@EvilSeph> I simply asked a question and made an observation. The only reason this discussion has been so  drawn out is because you got really defensive
<+NuclearW> NinjaGrinch, you agreed when you signed up that in public you are the face of the project, you're expected in public to act as such.
<+NuclearW> We all did
<+NinjaGrinch> Yes, in public.
<@EvilSeph> which made me wonder if it might become a problem
<@EvilSeph> there's that attitude again
<+NinjaGrinch> No attitude, I was simply pointing that part out.
<+NinjaGrinch> This IRC is not public so I haven't gone against that have I?
<@Rigby> So hows the weather been lately?
<@EvilSeph> ...
<@Rigby> Whats peoples plans for the new year?
<@Rigby> Hows christmas been?
<@Rigby> Steam deals are good...
<+SwearWord> Christmas was very christy, the weather has been weathery
<@EvilSeph> you just don't get it
<+NuclearW> I got a pair of noise-cancelling headphones.  Love them
<@Rigby> Shame it doesn't cancel out this racket NuclearW
<+SwearWord> I read racist
<+NuclearW> Rigby, it cancels out my roommate, which I thought could not be done
<+SwearWord> Shame it doesn't cancel out all the racists
<@Rigby> :(
<@EvilSeph> I feel like no matter what I say, you're going to snap at me
<@EvilSeph> so I'm done
<@EvilSeph> you can decide if you want to take what has been said to heart or not
<@EvilSeph> I didn't mean to jump on you, I was simply asking a question and making an observation, nothing more. I needed to know if I could depend on you to keep your composure.
<+NinjaGrinch> Alrighty :p
<@EvilSeph> ...
<@EvilSeph> anyway, I'm strongly for watching the competition or anything involved in Bukkit
<@EvilSeph> it's why I keep such a close eye on Drakia's forums