NeuroScience [lab] and the US Dept of Justice

Nov 7th, 2016
Not a member of Pastebin yet? Sign Up, it unlocks many cool features!
  1. NeuroScience and the US Dept of Justice
  2. Expand Messages
  3. Mona Morstein
  4. Message 1 of 10 , Nov 3 2:37 PM
  5. View Source
  6. I’m sure many of you received a letter from NeuroScience, but if not, here is the government's explanation for their guilty practices.
  10. Mona Morstein, ND, DHANP
  11. Tempe, AZ
  13. Founder/Executive Director of the Low Carb Diabetes Association
  17. Message 2 of 10 , Nov 3 2:47 PM
  18. View Source
  19. Any recommendations in terms of alternatives?
  21. Gary Piscopo, ND, LAc
  22. E Wenatchee, WA
  26. Anne Van Couvering
  27. Message 3 of 10 , Nov 3 3:36 PM
  28. View Source
  29. I use Labrix
  31. Anne Van Couvering, ND
  32. Westminster, VT
  36. Mona Morstein
  37. Message 4 of 10 , Nov 4 7:21 AM
  38. View Source
  39. I would suggest looking at Doctor’s Data Labs. (no proprietary interest for me or NatChat)
  41. Mona Morstein, ND, DHANP
  42. Tempe, AZ
  44. Executive Director: Low Carb Diabetes Association
  48. weyrich_comp
  49. Message 5 of 10 , Nov 4 10:47 PM
  50. View Source
  51. Rather than reflecting badly on Pharmasan labs reliability or utility, this case illustrates the vendetta of conventional medicine against anything different, in this case "functional medicine." Theranos was crucified on the same patard.
  53. In both cases the complaint seems to be that the lab was using reference ranges that were not government-approved. If Doctor's Data dodges that bullet, it is only because their reports are "dumbed down" to report wide reference ranges (e.g. typically the range that 95% of the population falls into) that have much less clinical utility - leaving to the practitioner to guess what the true desirable range is - which CLIA prohibits labs from publishing, as I understand.
  55. I hope we all understand how ridiculous the "official" reference ranges are for TSH for example, and how functional medicine largely is based on detecting and reacting to deviations from optimal within official reference ranges where there is no diagnosis of abnormality.
  57. The real mistake that Pharmasan (and Theranos) made was in allowing CMS and Tri-care to be billed.
  59. The government is poison to any deviation from the AMA party line, and serves the highest bidder (pay to play like a certain candidate that I will NEVER call president even if she "wins" the vote-tally).
  61. The further naturopaths and other alternative practitioners stay away from anything funded by the government, the safer we will and our labs be.
  63. Just my politically incorrect opinion :-)
  65. Regards,
  66. Orville Weyrich, Jr PhD NMD BCN
  67. Phoenix/Payson AZ
  71. DrDee
  72. Message 6 of 10 , Nov 5 12:08 AM
  73. View Source
  74. Thanks Orville,
  76. I was at a Neuroscience event last night in Tempe and spoke with their chief Research person Gottfried who has designed the tests. They are launching mitochondrial testing that seems pretty remarkable truly. I understand that we need some reference ranges and from the evenings discussion I understood that they have tested almost a million people. They look at all of these results within the context of our integrated systems as we know none of our insides work alone. So yes they have numerical windows to say this is too high or too low but it's within a bigger picture.
  78. I have run Labrix Neurotransmitter tests as well as their adrenal and hormone panels on 100's of folks with good results to work from. However Labrix tests (I believe) 6 Neurotransmitters while NS checks 12, so for only a bit more money you get a lot more results. And I have had great results for my clients using their products- life changing really.
  80. So I'm going to continue using them and avoiding insurance companies and Medicare as long as I'm in practice.
  82. Transformational Medicine PLLC
  83. Dr. DeeAnn Saber, NMD
  87. Eric Blake
  88. Message 7 of 10 , Nov 5 8:53 AM
  89. View Source
  90. I agree With Orville that the Medicare billing was the trigger and is the danger.
  92. I would hope that it would serve as one of many warnings to our profession to stay away from Medicare. The legal ramifications of 'not following the tx guidelines' and billing are draconian. It is not the same as Medicaid which works for some of our docs.
  94. Sadly some of our leadership is running the train towards that cliff.Fir example from what I can surmise at NUNM there is a strong push towards conventional practice as well for normative acceptance and future legislation in that arena. I hear it proferred as the 'savior' of our profession financially.
  96. I don't believe that we will heed these warnings. I suspect they will be ignored or minimized in hopes of perceived gains that will probably be damaging to the professions naturopathic integrity of clinical practice in the long run.
  98. Just as the rise of Nazi Fascism was less the early strength of that party and more the failure of the moderates and Left to cohesively unify in parliamentary opposition before it was too late. They failed to heed the warnings. Disjointed they were unable to mount the coordinated effort required. Split amongst themselves.
  100. History tends to repeat itself. I certainly hope not in the very near future.
  102. Sincerely
  103. Dr. Blake
  105. Eric Blake ND, DAc
  106. Naturopathic Physician,
  107. Diplomate in Acupuncture
  108. Member of the Oncology Association of Naturopathic Physicians
  109. Member of Oregon Association of Naturopathic Physicians
  113. Mona Morstein
  114. Message 8 of 10 , Nov 5 7:05 PM
  115. View Source
  116. Hello, Orville,
  118. I think putting NeuroScience and Theranos as the victims of the big, bad government is not a valid debate.
  120. Theranos defrauded investors by stating they had invented a one drop technique for doing an entire blood work panel. That was a lie, and investors are understandably suing Theranos. Their labs were so incompetently run, they were shut down by the government for patient safety. Thousands of panels had to be redone with better equipment and results, two years late, were sent to physicians regarding patients who had had poor analysis of their labs previously. It had nothing to do with innocently changing reference ranges.
  122. If you read the government report, among things cited, NeuroScience finagled labs to ensure they looked like supplements were needed by patients, supplements they conveniently sold. That’s not good and that’s not simply changing lab reference values for the good of the patient; it was for the abuse of the patient’s wallets.
  124. Now, I’m sure many good people work at NS, like Gottfried, and I know many docs have made use of those labs to help patients. All good. Yet, we still need to analyze these cases in an unbiased manner and not see conspiracy theories where labs just did the wrong things and got caught. Look at Genova stepping in once they had bought Metametrix and realizing the whole GI Panel was utter hogwash; they fired the Metametrix Lab Director and redid that whole aspect of the lab to actually make it a responsible lab test.
  126. Our alternative labs help us out in diagnosing our patients with functional problems everyday and I am very glad they are around. But, we do need to keep ourselves open to problems with them, applauding when they make positive changes (like Genova did) but also realizing not everyone running labs are always on the up and up.
  128. Mona Morstein, ND, DHANP
  129. Tempe, AZ
  131. Executive Director: Low Carb Diabetes Association
  135. dr_bier_portsmouth_nh
  136. Today at 9:04 AM
  137. View Source
  138. Orville,
  139. I don't know if there's an official Nat chat policy, but I would say that politics (or at least non-FDA/medicine related) don't belong here and ask that we keep it out of Natchat.
  141. We are an incredibly diverse profession, one of our strengths, and share a passion and dedication to the medicine. Even though we approach it different ways and disagree with each other, at times strongly, on how to implement it we are bound together by our shared desire to help people and the world heal using natural medicine.
  143. Left, RIght, Libertarian, Independent - I don't care or even want to know what people's leanings are as I don't want it to affect my opinion of them as a healer. You are my colleague in this healing community, whether we are 100% in agreement or completely out of alignment in other areas.
  145. Between our own internal conflicts and outside forces there is more then enough stress and strain on our profession - let's stick with what we share as we strive to bring the Vis more into the world.
  147. I
  149. Ian D. Bier, ND, PhD, LAc, FABNO
  150. Naturopathic Doctor, Licensed Acupuncturist
  151. Fellow, American Board of Naturopathic Oncology
  152. Vice-Chair, Board of Medical Examiners, American Board of Naturopathic Oncology
  157. Jana Nalbandian
  158. Message 10 of 10 , Today at 1:29 PM
  159. View Source
  160. Thank you Mona, for your well researched and sensible reply. As a past Med tech and one who taught Clinical Laboratory Diagnosis at Bastyr for 10 years, it is imperative that standards are upheld for valid lab results and good clinical outcomes. I have always taught my students that for labs to be useful they need proven clinical utility. There are certain labs I will never use because they are a waste of money and due to my connections and knowledge within the lab community, I appreciate CLIA for the most part and good government oversight that protects patients.
  163. Jana Nalbandian, ND, MT, ASCP
  164. Anchorage, AK
RAW Paste Data