<ShadowLord> hey, where are we in terms of chain discussions?
<queenjupiisalwaysright> are in the same spot we were last night just trying to figure it out
<ShadowLord> ok
<ShadowLord> we should still push for something that lets us have 2 trickles
<ShadowLord> my favorite plan atm is just change it to 2 trickles between mains
<ShadowLord> im not reallyt ok with it staying as 1 trickle between mains
<ShadowLord> dont think nab wants that either
<queenjupiisalwaysright> hrmm
<ShadowLord> we need to use the argument that we need to boost other accounts for war
<ShadowLord> mains are fine
<ShadowLord> we need more warriors
<queenjupiisalwaysright> this will boost others
<ShadowLord> but it doesnt solve UW's problem of getting raped in the growth deal
<ShadowLord> which is the whole point of changing it
<ShadowLord> at least with 2 trickles the amount each alliance depends on each other for growth is reduced
<ShadowLord> dont argue against me >_< can we skype real quick?
<queenjupiisalwaysright> this is a better deal for us
<queenjupiisalwaysright> then what we currently have
<ShadowLord> not good enough though
<queenjupiisalwaysright> I don't like watering the growth down to nab so far
<queenjupiisalwaysright> this improves nabs growth and improves our trickles growth
<ShadowLord> <5% of nab's growth is from phnx and tc
<ShadowLord> so it is irrelevant to us
<queenjupiisalwaysright> problem is the deal you are offering up is useless to everyone, it means all 3 alliances lose out
<ShadowLord> splitting is obviously 100% more useless
<queenjupiisalwaysright> not really
<ShadowLord> the deal IS useless to Underworld.
<queenjupiisalwaysright> would all get full trickle with a split, the 2 in between thing is worse then no deal
<queenjupiisalwaysright> and it's not
<queenjupiisalwaysright> not in the bigger picture
<ShadowLord> it shouldnt require UW to give 200k soldiers more away in a growth deal just to get them to war their own enemeies with us
<ShadowLord> current tallies:
<ShadowLord> UW has given PHNX:	267,000
<ShadowLord> UW has given TC:	291,500
<ShadowLord>
<ShadowLord> PHNX has given UW:	80,500
<ShadowLord> TC has given UW:	88,000
<queenjupiisalwaysright> but they aren't also gonna cut their trickle growth for nothing, I wouldn't either
<queenjupiisalwaysright> being 3rd trickle 1/3 of the time is nothing
<ShadowLord> if we split they get 0 trickle from UW, they dont seem too hesitant to do that
<queenjupiisalwaysright> them getting nothing from UW would be better then the deal you are proposing, from a purely selfish standpoint
<ShadowLord> why
<queenjupiisalwaysright> because they give up the better part of their trickle structure to get crap on their main
<ShadowLord> they are giving up something they didnt deserve in the first place
<queenjupiisalwaysright> ....
<ShadowLord> this situation should not have happened
<ShadowLord> we came into the deal expecting them to contribute growth
<ShadowLord> they have not done that
<queenjupiisalwaysright> if this deal folds cause we keep insisting on this bullshit I'm out, not going to waste my time on an age with no purpose, someone can take over my account and I'll go play something else
<ShadowLord> i dont understand why its such a "TERRIBLE FCKIN IDEA" to redistribute growth to your own alliance
<queenjupiisalwaysright> are those members going to do enough damage to DN to give us a chance to win? I doubt the few extra soldiers on trickles mean a damn thing come war time
<ShadowLord> we need actual large accounts of the variety that come from 2nd trickle in order to have any sort of SOV at the end of age
<ShadowLord> and you cant use the argument that its only a "few" extra soldiers, cuz if it's irrelevent then they shouldn't care
<queenjupiisalwaysright> yes, the large accounts we gain from a) our members clicking and b) PHNX and TC joining the war
<ShadowLord> if we war DN really well and still have shit for SOV because we gave all of our SOV to other alliances to get 3rd and/or 4th, we still wont beat them
<ShadowLord> btw its getting annoying that i cant have a rational conversation with anyone without them threatening to quit
<ShadowLord> smokey has said it every time <_<
<queenjupiisalwaysright> I don't want to waste my time I been trying to get a war since age 5
<queenjupiisalwaysright> there?
<ShadowLord> sorta
<queenjupiisalwaysright> ok, wanna try to explain the problem with PHNX in the negotiations
<ShadowLord> explain to who
<queenjupiisalwaysright> to you
<ShadowLord> o
<ShadowLord> k
<queenjupiisalwaysright> well, part of human nature is when you put someone in a defensive posture there tendency is to snap back, when you go back to day 6 of the deal when we put our case to PHNX/TC, the best thing to do is that jupi states the case for UW and then goes to her party, we see how they react and I play the role of mediator between what PHNX/TC want and what UW wants, when you jumped in and started
<queenjupiisalwaysright> arguing over the numbers as you did you put them in a defensive posture and it causes them to be on edge
<queenjupiisalwaysright> then the attacks by mav have them in a bad mood
<queenjupiisalwaysright> it's creating a somewhat hostile environment to negotiations, best to not put them on defense until it's necessary to do so
<ShadowLord> yeah, i do agree that i was a bit too aggressive on that first time we chatted. it's not that i said anything that wasn't true, but i can understand the need to feel defensive. normally i am able to demonstrate pretty good emotional intelligence, and nothing in this game has ever actually made me mad, but phnx (smokey) has started to. i understand that our best chance to win the age is to have phnx and tc on our side (and actually fully committed), i am just finding it hard to want to have smokey on my side
<queenjupiisalwaysright> negotiations of this nature happen over days and weeks, it takes small adjustments over time to get to where you want to go, it's a game of patience and wills
<ShadowLord> i also felt somewhat undermined when you didn't support my 2-trickles idea. i still think that it is the best idea for UW, and that it should be acceptable to phnx and tc. i am not saying that i am absoultely right, but i would appreciate getting on the same page before we negotiate with them. i felt like UW had no voice in the growth discussion, even though UW is >50% of the entire chain.
<queenjupiisalwaysright> where we are at now we are in a good position overall so the need for patience is bigger, and I mean in terms of comparing UW to DN as it stands
<ShadowLord> i want to be able to trust my allies, yet smokey has threatened to yank phnx out of the deal literally every time we've talked about anything, so it's impossible to feel like he's in it for the long haul
<ShadowLord> i feel like we are investing soldiers into a guy who's gonna turn against us regardless of what we do
<queenjupiisalwaysright> well
<queenjupiisalwaysright> look at it this way
<queenjupiisalwaysright> the deal we negotiated today is better for UW then the deal we had yesterday
<ShadowLord> (only slightly, but i'll concede that point for now)
<queenjupiisalwaysright> maybe it could be better but if we got an improvement and they were fine with it, then we make a run on it and at a later time we can try to adjust again
<queenjupiisalwaysright> I'm also not really convinced 2 trickles is best for ranking, maybe warring but even there I'm skeptical
<queenjupiisalwaysright> growth on nab is more valuable then growth on any other account
<queenjupiisalwaysright> so that has to be taken into consideration
<ShadowLord> yeah but it seems like you are forgetting how insignificant the growth nab has actually gotten from it is
<ShadowLord> trust me, i understand the point of growth on the main, i've sent him 400k credits already :P
<queenjupiisalwaysright> if we run 6 days we get a good idea whats going to happen, then we can see where we stand
<queenjupiisalwaysright> I feel like
<queenjupiisalwaysright> once this war gets under way
<queenjupiisalwaysright> our bargaining position is better
<queenjupiisalwaysright> TC isn't going to jump out of war easily
<queenjupiisalwaysright> and PHNX isn't going to leave TC hanging just to dump on us because TC is all they have to mask their general lack of activity
<queenjupiisalwaysright> but in the long term of the deal it's possible PHNX activity picks up down the road, we need to keep plugging away, if we get a better deal on the table and they agree to it we take it
<ShadowLord> the root cause of all my gripes is the nature of the partnership. if we were allied with fun, good-natured people that were reasonable, i wouldn't mind shipping stuff their way and having a good ol' time. but i feel like smokey's every interaction with us has been negative, and i am 99% certain he would not get behind the UW banner if that's what it takes to beat DN (and it will). if the roles were reversed and UW was one of the smaller ones, I'd be happy to rally behind the alliance that actually has a shot at accomplishing something, and that's not the message that is getting sent back.
<queenjupiisalwaysright> well the thing you gotta understand
<queenjupiisalwaysright> we aren't just dealin PHNX/TC atm, we are repairing a relationship that's been severed ages back, and that's not an easy thing to do
<queenjupiisalwaysright> especially not if we keep taking backward steps, our moves need to be productive to our ends and never counterproductive
<queenjupiisalwaysright> if silver didn't like me and jupi there wouldn't be a deal, he flat out told me he don't care about the rest of UW at this time
<ShadowLord> what exactly are you referencing? are you talking about some deal that UW botched in a previous age? i wasnt playing and i dont actually know what kind of stuff happened
<queenjupiisalwaysright> PHNX/TC/UW were together in age 6 when I was in PHNX and Brian fucked a lot of shit up for UW that age
<queenjupiisalwaysright> he dumped out on our war with ES/VS then sold to VS main and in some weird way Nab got a deal in age 7 out of the events, silver sold to nab in age 5 and felt betrayed, PHNX was mad they lost because of UW selling to VS instead of working a deal with PHNX for their sell
<queenjupiisalwaysright> which brings us to today, UW is not the most popular alliance with those guys
<queenjupiisalwaysright> and we've got to work around that
<queenjupiisalwaysright> when  was in PHNX I hated UW, only reason I joined UW after leaving PHNX was jupi pressured me to do so
<ShadowLord> ah, alrite. i sorta remember hearing about that. it makes a little sense if they are holding past grudges. however, that is not what UW is now. Current UW leadership is effectively you, jupi, me, and Nab. we are all reasonable people and good-natured enough. i have plans to start mending things with other alliances. i need to build personal relationships with people. i havent tried yet with phnx or tc because all the energy in #omfg has been extremely negative when i've spoken there.
<ShadowLord> i need to take a step back from the nitty-gritty numbers of the game and just chat about why i am playing
<queenjupiisalwaysright> it wasn't til after I joined I figured out the issues we had were 99% brian
<queenjupiisalwaysright> well actually they were about 50% bad communication, 25% brian, 25% PHNX gave UW/TC a shitty deal
<ShadowLord> yeah, well he doesnt hold much real power anymore. i guess we are still hurting from whatever he did.
<ShadowLord> i want to be able to have honest, reasonable discussions with them.
<queenjupiisalwaysright> it was 50% cb on main only when they were on top in UW/TC's rotation and 1 clicker under the 2 of them to share and also give clickback too
<queenjupiisalwaysright> I happened to be that clicker, but iceman didn't give me shit so I just stayed under stoney and iceman left UW when we warred joined VS and chained PHNX, also didn't help matters because UW got TC not to sab iceman even though he was chaining us
<ShadowLord> i see
<queenjupiisalwaysright> like he might of given me cb on 10k clicks, then when I got to 60k clicks and nothing more was given I told arlo and he said join under stoney
<ShadowLord> so basically, shit happened in the past.
<ShadowLord> it wont happen anymore. as a leader, i make mistakes, but i will do what i can to mitigate them
<queenjupiisalwaysright> yup lots of shit happened and we now have to work around it
<ShadowLord> and i feel that the rest of us are the same
<queenjupiisalwaysright> and PHNX isn't really being as open to drop the past shit as I'd like
<ShadowLord> my understanding is that your "bigger picture" goal with building a tie with PHNX is for an eventual merger/absorption type thing. is it worth it to question this goal? are these people that you want to be playing the game with for a long time? i'm not saying one way or the other, just asking
<queenjupiisalwaysright> I'm more interested in TC
<queenjupiisalwaysright> PHNX will fold within 2 ages
<ShadowLord> my idea of enjoying this game is being able to collaborate with people who have similar ideas and goals, and who are smart enough to intelligently argue with me and correct me when i overlook something
<ShadowLord> so then our main goal would be to develop strong friendships with TC members
<queenjupiisalwaysright> quite possibly after this age
<queenjupiisalwaysright> that is unless they dramatically shift their attitudes and their leaders start to give a shit a little bit
<queenjupiisalwaysright> but the reality is they have no leadership
<ShadowLord> if i wanted to start building my own personal connections to TC members, where and how should i start?
<queenjupiisalwaysright> I was a long time leader in PHNX, I know a lot about how their internal operations go
<queenjupiisalwaysright> just start talking to them as friends
<queenjupiisalwaysright> I talk to stoney and silver all the time and just shoot the shit about anything, game related or not
<queenjupiisalwaysright> it goes a long way with TC if they feel that friendship bond
<ShadowLord> stoney is a solid guy. i havent spoken to silver before, but i probably should
<queenjupiisalwaysright> the main reason TC isn't on board with UW is they don't feel the bulk of the leadership cares about them other then what they can do for UW
<ShadowLord> i see
<ShadowLord> if it is true, then it's not hard to change that mentality
<ShadowLord> my approach would be to be completely honest about our goals
<queenjupiisalwaysright> PHNX leadership is on it's last gasp of air though which is part of why they are so crotchety
<queenjupiisalwaysright> they get no support from the membership and a big part of why is they chased their active membership out of the alliance, like me and jupi
<ShadowLord> based on what i have seen from smokey so far, it makes perfect sense to me that his alliance would wither away
<queenjupiisalwaysright> it was strong until I left
<queenjupiisalwaysright> easily 2nd strongest alliance in the game
<queenjupiisalwaysright> age 7 beat nab for rank 2 and left about 1 trillion in sells on the table
<ShadowLord> i dont doubt it. but now at best they are a very distant 3rd. and i think TC would be a lot stronger than them if they were slightly more organized
<queenjupiisalwaysright> but nara ran it into the ground without me
<queenjupiisalwaysright> they are 4th
<queenjupiisalwaysright> TC is stronger
<ShadowLord> yeah
<queenjupiisalwaysright> and they are only 4th by default
<queenjupiisalwaysright> because there are only 4 ranking alliances left
<ShadowLord> without the growth from UW this age, SK would actually have a larger main
<queenjupiisalwaysright> almost guarantee you PHNX is dead within 2 ages
<queenjupiisalwaysright> but they dug that grave themselves
<queenjupiisalwaysright> if it wasn't for TC there wouldn't be a PHNX now
<ShadowLord> so all this talk for multi-age ideas is good: we have pretty much established that our goal is to establish close ties of freindship with TC, in the process undoing any negatives that previous UW leadership has caused. however, in terms of age 10, where does that leave us in terms of the growth deal? i am still very uncertain about the chances that phnx sticks it through, even though they need it to fuel their dwindling alliance
<ShadowLord> i think in order to legimately discuss that point, we need to hypothsize about outcomes at the end of the age. i can think of a few scenarios:
<ShadowLord> Scenario 1: the growth deal falls apart, whether for growth reasons, war reasons, or just plain stupid reasons. UW tries to compete with DN, but comes up just short. do we get rank #2, or do phnx/tc sell to one another? does UW still beat the combined phnx/tc? if not, would this answer be different if UW had given them less soldiers?
<ShadowLord> Scenario 2: the growth deal stays together all age. we war DN, but even with our combined forces DN still remains strong because, well, they're DN. even though we have inflicted more damage on their accounts, they are able to win the age because they have more SOV to start with due to all of their resourcs being focused on their own accounts. UW slides into a distant second
<ShadowLord> Scenario 3: the growth deal stays and we war DN all age, somewhat successfully, but we are not going to beat DN. talks move to sells between phnx, tc, and UW to steal rank 1. phxn and UW cannot agree because UW feels entitled due to being largest, and phnx is stubborn. tc sides with phnx, assuming we do not achieve our goal of becoming closer friends with them
<ShadowLord> lmk if ur reading/thinking/typing
<queenjupiisalwaysright> if PHNX actually did beat us for rank 2 it'd be because of crappy play on the part of UW
<queenjupiisalwaysright> even if they sold all to each other we should beat them
<ShadowLord> well, the way i imagine us getting rank 3 is if we continue to give soldiers to both phnx and tc instead of UW accounts, and we are unable to beat DN, so phnx/tc sell to each other. i think it's more likely that UW would win that, but it would be close.
<queenjupiisalwaysright> kinda irrelevant to me though, imo playing for rank 2 is failing before you begin
<ShadowLord> i agree that our goal is not rank 2
<ShadowLord> however, is our goal to beat DN, or is it to make UW rank 1? thats something im not sure about
<queenjupiisalwaysright> well ideally both but I'd rather DN lose to TC or PHNX by a sell off from UW then DN win, that is if they fight the war
<queenjupiisalwaysright> if they don't fight the war then they can piss off
<ShadowLord> i agree there, but it is somewhat of a source of conflict in my mind. i guess it depends on how good/crappy of allies they turn out to be. if relations continue the way they have been, i'd rather get rank 2 then sell to either of them, but i am sure later i will also want DN to lose very badly.
<ShadowLord> that in particular is a bit of an awkward topic to discuss with your allies, which is why it can make a bit of an awkward dance
<ShadowLord> i guess another "scenario" that i forgot to mention is the simple case where the amount of damage that phnx and tc can do to DN in sabbing is less than the value of a permanent UW 2nd and 3rd trickle would be. if this were true, and if phnx and tc choose to not sell to UW at the end to beat DN, then we might come up short due to lack of UW SOV
<queenjupiisalwaysright> that's virtually impossible
<queenjupiisalwaysright> they have between them about 20-25 reasonably active accounts, no way some extra growth on 2 accounts would deal more damage
<queenjupiisalwaysright> unless it was main level growth
<ShadowLord> it's not just a small amount of extra growth, it'd be like setting up another whole account on the level of you or stew from last age, and another one of 1-2mil+ tff from clicks
<ShadowLord> based on tigger and meeker from last age my estimate is that i'll end up selling roughly 400-500bil to nab, and an account that was 2nd trickle all age would be good for a few hundred billion
<queenjupiisalwaysright> still highly unlikely the damage would come anywhere close to parity, or even the combined total of damage -> UW SOV
<queenjupiisalwaysright> what you gotta kinda take into account is the uber effectiveness of massing sentry with many accounts
<ShadowLord> ok, if that is true then i do not have to worry about that scenario
<queenjupiisalwaysright> TC and PHNX aren't just doing their own damage
<queenjupiisalwaysright> they are making our spies more effective by dropping DN sentries
<ShadowLord> right, it's about critical mass
<queenjupiisalwaysright> and then our spies make theirs more effective
<queenjupiisalwaysright> 2 accounts won't compare to the damage output of adding 20 good spies, never will with the number of accounts we have to sab
<ShadowLord> yep i agree i am convinced on this topic
<ShadowLord> what do we do if phnx pulls something quirky, like continues to accept growth from us, then find some stupid "reason" to get pissed off mid-age, abandons chain (with or without TC), and fights against us?
<queenjupiisalwaysright> we are going to 0 many DN accounts
<queenjupiisalwaysright> the question is only can we 0 enough
<ShadowLord> i hope so, that'd be fun