Modern Causality and Legal Culpability

2:04:39 PM+InfiniteSpireWanna hear something zany
2:04:57 PM+InfiniteSpire1. America was founded in 1776-1791.
2:05:13 PM+InfiniteSpire2. Scientific study of system is mostly a 20th and 21st century affair
2:05:21 PM+InfiniteSpire3. Stochastic terrorism was named in 2012.
2:05:42 PM+InfiniteSpire4. Our society continues to leverage norms about causality and culpability that doesn't know how to handle stochastic terrorism
2:05:47 PM+InfiniteSpireFor example, Tucker Carlson
2:05:49 PM→ Serdar_ has joined
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2:06:22 PM+InfiniteSpireIf you send bombs, then our society understands you're a criminal.
2:06:27 PMⓘ IL_Shaman set mode +v Noctiluca
2:06:35 PM+InfiniteSpireIf you broadcast to millions of people every day that creates the ideology that creates the bombers, THAT'S FREE SPEECH
2:06:51 PM+InfiniteSpireYeah, it's complicated and nuanced, and, yeah, we need to update our views from 1787.
2:07:18 PMSerdar_no we don't
2:07:34 PM+InfiniteSpireSerdar_: You frequently have dishonest chat.
2:07:38 PM+InfiniteSpireThis causes me to ignore you very quickly.
2:07:39 PMSerdar_that would be going against the constitution
2:07:44 PM+InfiniteSpireLet's see how this session goes.
2:07:56 PMSerdar_no, IS
2:08:02 PM+InfiniteSpireSerdar_: The Framers wanted Americans to create new Constitutions every 14-17 years.
2:08:12 PMSerdar_no
2:08:14 PM+InfiniteSpireThey'd be aghast we're using the same document, updated as it is.
2:08:16 PMSerdar_but they wanted major reforms
2:08:22 PM+InfiniteSpireOh, I'm quoting some of the Framers.
2:08:25 PM+InfiniteSpireYou don't get to disagree.
2:08:27 PMSerdar_well actually Jefferson said a revolotion every 25t years
2:08:43 PMSerdar_but what he meant by that is not what we would call a revolution today
2:08:52 PMSerdar_but today what we would call major reforms
2:09:10 PMSerdar_so thats not a new constitution
2:09:10 PM+InfiniteSpirehttps://www.npr.org/2011/12/10/143354018/reconstituting-the-constitution-how-to-rewrite-it
2:09:18 PM+InfiniteSpire"Now, he's turned to one of his heroes — Thomas Jefferson — who believed, Phillips says, that Americans should revisit the Constitution every 20 years and rewrite it from scratch."
2:09:28 PM+InfiniteSpire"rewrite it from scratch"
2:09:51 PMSerdar_Kevin Phillips?
2:09:55 PMSerdar_a poitical writer
2:10:01 PMSerdar_is that who wrote that?
2:10:13 PM+InfiniteSpireWhat?
2:10:19 PM+InfiniteSpireI provided the fucking link.
2:10:24 PM+InfiniteSpireRead the fucking document.
2:10:31 PMSerdar_you quoted someone named Phillips
2:10:34 PM+InfiniteSpireYou're the captain of your education.
2:10:42 PMSerdar_my system is too slow to display that and chat here
2:10:57 PM+InfiniteSpireChristopher Phillips
2:11:24 PMSerdar_I don;t know who Chris Phillips is
2:11:51 PMSerdar_thats interpretting Jeffersons real words to mean that
2:12:15 PMSerdar_that is Chris Phillips words then, not Jeffersons
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2:12:54 PM+InfiniteSpireI find you so incredibly dishonest, honestly.
2:12:56 PMSerdar_Jefferson said a revolution every 25 years
2:13:01 PMSerdar_he meant major reforms
2:13:20 PM+InfiniteSpireYou made many, many assumptions, most of them wrong, all of them biased in the same direction.
2:13:26 PM+InfiniteSpireYou resist the flow of truth at every step.
2:13:36 PM+InfiniteSpirehttps://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_newc.html
2:13:44 PM+InfiniteSpire"There have been many proposals for substantial change to the Constitution. Thomas Jefferson himself was wary of the power of the dead over the living in the form of an unchanging Constitution. To ensure that each generation have a say in the framework of the government, he proposed that the Constitution, and each one following it, expire after 19 or 20 years. James Madison, Jefferson's contemporary, found comfort in knowing that the populace would not be thrust into political turmoil every 20 years, and noted that the way the Constitution is now structured, it implies an acceptance of the status quo unless explicitly changed."
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2:14:20 PM+InfiniteSpirehttps://www.armstrongeconomics.com/history/americas-economic-history/jefferson-19-year-cycle-for-an-...
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2:14:34 PM+InfiniteSpire“Every constitution, then, and every law, naturally expires at the end of nineteen years. If it be enforced longer, it is an act of force, and not of right. It may be said, that the succeeding generation exercising, in fact, the power of repeal, this leaves them as free as if the constitution or law had been expressly limited to nineteen years only. In the first place, this objection admits the right, in proposing an equivalent. But the power of repeal is not an equivalent. It might be, indeed, if every form of government were so perfectly contrived, that the will of the majority could always be obtained, fairly and without impediment. But this is true of no form. The people cannot assemble themselves; their representation is unequal and vicious. Various checks are opposed to every legislative proposition. Factions get possession of the public councils, bribery corrupts them, personal interests lead them astray from the general interests of their constituents; and other impediments arise, so as to prove to every practical man, that a law of limited duration is much more manageable than one which needs a repeal.”
2:14:37 PM+InfiniteSpirePrimary source.
2:14:43 PM+InfiniteSpireThomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1789. ME 7:459, Papers 15:396
2:14:45 PM+InfiniteSpireIssue resolved.
2:14:50 PM+InfiniteSpireSerdar_ is wrong again.
2:15:11 PMSerdar_thats interesting, IS
2:15:26 PM+InfiniteSpireThe Framers would have utterly hated the GOP.
2:15:33 PM+InfiniteSpireThey'd go to war with them.
2:15:59 PM+InfiniteSpireThat entire passage reads as a description of the current GOP.
2:16:37 PM+InfiniteSpireThe Framers, again, wrote their document in the late 18th century.
2:16:41 PM+InfiniteSpireScience >>> Framers
2:16:47 PM+InfiniteSpireThough, the Framers are badass.
2:16:52 PM+InfiniteSpireSome of the smarter humans in human history.
2:17:26 PM+InfiniteSpireThe science of causality in human psychology, social groups, mass media, stochastic terrorism forces us to realize that Tucker Carlson is WORSE than Cesar Sayoc.
2:17:33 PM+InfiniteSpireHe is much, much more culpable.
2:17:34 PMSerdar_InfiniteSpire. you flooded the room and I didn;t get a chance to read all that
2:17:48 PM+InfiniteSpireDid it scroll away?
2:17:51 PMSerdar_now I have to go back and read all that
2:18:00 PM+InfiniteSpireThe humanity.
2:18:06 PM+InfiniteSpireThank you for caring about reading, though. :)
2:18:11 PM+QuBitIL_Shaman.  you space cadets?
2:18:34 PM+InfiniteSpireOur laws don't hold Tucker Carlson guilty of really any crimes.
2:18:51 PM+InfiniteSpireAnd that's an INDESCRIBABLY LARGE WHOLE in our system that is *currently* being abused by fascists.
2:19:23 PM+InfiniteSpireIt led to the development of a multi-tiered mass media ecosystem that has, as a key purpose the radicalization of some member of its group to do acts of violence.
2:19:38 PM+InfiniteSpireThe system, as a whole, is very guilty, and those that are near the top of the information funnel are the most dangerous, not the bombers.
2:19:49 PM+InfiniteSpireBombers generate bombs, and propagandists like Tucker generate bombers.
2:20:24 PM+InfiniteSpireThe solution of the American common law system based of 18th century free speech notions is to play whack-a-mole with the bombers.
2:20:28 PM+InfiniteSpireWhile people die and suffer.
2:20:36 PM+InfiniteSpireAnd you might think, hey, that's the price of freedom.
2:20:41 PM+InfiniteSpireAnd it is, to some extent -- I accept that.
2:20:54 PM+InfiniteSpireBut, that mass-media multi-tiered system doesn't just generate bombers, unfortunately.
2:21:02 PM+InfiniteSpireIt puts white nationalists into law enforcement.
2:21:05 PM+InfiniteSpireAnd it dumbs down the population.
2:21:12 PM+InfiniteSpireAnd it leads to fascists in office that take over the entire system.
2:21:18 PM+InfiniteSpireAll of which is by design.
2:21:30 PM+InfiniteSpireAnd so, yes, Tucker is much more culpable than Cesary Sayoc, who was recently charged with 30 felonies.
2:22:05 PM+InfiniteSpireThe solution the Framers gave us is this: You battle that free speech of Tucker with more free speech.
2:22:16 PM+InfiniteSpireAnd sometimes you win, and the state didn't have to regulate speech at any point -- great!
2:22:33 PM+InfiniteSpireAnd sometimes you lose, and you get 15 years of Nazi rule and your country is obliterated by foreign invaders and you kill 100 million humans.
2:23:08 PM+InfiniteSpireI want to make the latter less likely, while being mindful of the difficulty of moderating speech, and the importance of it at the lifeblood of a free society.
2:23:23 PM+InfiniteSpireBut we cannot allows fascists to broadcast night after night -- the human mind can't handle it.
2:23:31 PM+InfiniteSpireI wish it could, but it can't. Look at Americans.
2:23:39 PM+InfiniteSpire40% of these fat fuckers support Trump TODAY.
2:24:16 PM+InfiniteSpireWhich is a Clear and Present danger to the national security of our republic, and the dignity and well-being of humans across this globe.
2:24:33 PM+InfiniteSpireAnd I don't care if the Framers didn't anticipate mass media and its effect on human psychology in 1787.
2:24:36 PMSerdar_I am sure the letter from Thomas Jefferson to Madison was correct, but what those words mean then might not mean the same as they do today. So we are getting into Textualism and thats another can of worms
2:24:45 PM+Noctiluca.
2:24:47 PM+InfiniteSpireOf course you'd say that.
2:24:52 PM+InfiniteSpirePersistent dishonesty.
2:25:03 PMSerdar_to quote a certain Roger Barrett wande3ring and dreaming the words have different meaning
2:25:12 PM Ignoring Serdar_!*@*
2:25:16 PM+InfiniteSpireI ended my conversation with you at this time.
2:25:22 PM+InfiniteSpireWords have meaning, and meaning matters.
2:26:45 PM+InfiniteSpireImagine being so dishonest that you read a passage where a guy painstakingly argues for expire, and not mere repeal, and you conclude, We just can't figure out what he'd say!
2:27:13 PM+InfiniteSpireThere's this one school of jurisprudence I'll cite that thinks like this. I can't point out even a single word of phrase I dispute, though, I'll just name the school.
2:29:47 PM+InfiniteSpireFor the room, here's what happened.
2:29:50 PM+InfiniteSpire1. I made a claim
2:29:53 PM+InfiniteSpire2. Serdar_ disagreed
2:30:00 PM+InfiniteSpire3. I provided a citation. Serdar_ states its invalid
2:30:04 PM+InfiniteSpire4. Serdar_ provides no citation
2:30:14 PM+InfiniteSpire5. I provide another citation, and then a primary source
2:30:25 PM+InfiniteSpire6. Serdar_ concludes the primary source is impossible to decipher
2:30:30 PM+InfiniteSpire7. Serdar_ still provides no citations