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IRC Xorlo discussion part one

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Jun 3rd, 2015
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  1. [Xorlo part one and part two (the second one isn't complete), recorded by Ilmen.]
  2.  
  3. [19 déc. 12 19:31:44] * tsani * The CLL simply says: {.i ko'a .e ko'e broda lo brode} -> {.i ko'a broda lo brode .ije ko'e broda lo brode}
  4. [19 déc. 12 19:32:12] * tsani * But in each of those two sentences, the lo brode must have exactly the same referents
  5. [19 déc. 12 19:32:13] * latro`a * whereas the latter is actually weaker
  6. [19 déc. 12 19:32:13] * tsani * The CLL doesn't say that though >_>
  7. [19 déc. 12 19:32:13] * latro`a * than the former
  8. [19 déc. 12 19:32:13] * xalbo * So, for instance, {fu'e po'o mi .e lo speni be mi fu'o cu se zdani tu}, only my wife and I live in that house.
  9. [19 déc. 12 19:32:13] * tsani * Indeed.
  10. [19 déc. 12 19:33:14] * tsani * Now I want some cmavo to attach to connectives to mark them as magic macros :P
  11. [19 déc. 12 19:33:50] * latro`a * lol
  12. [19 déc. 12 19:34:07] * latro`a * actually
  13. [19 déc. 12 19:34:13] * tsani * Simply put, it'd indicate that the expansion is really what you want to say, and that there's no guarantee that implicitly repeated sumti have the same referents.
  14. [19 déc. 12 19:34:13] * latro`a * interestingly
  15. [19 déc. 12 19:34:26] * latro`a * that example under CLL-lo is true
  16. [19 déc. 12 19:34:27] * tsani * indeed
  17. [19 déc. 12 19:34:27] * tsani * but the CLL used le
  18. [19 déc. 12 19:34:27] * latro`a * since the lo brode doesn't have referents
  19. [19 déc. 12 19:34:27] * latro`a * oh nvm
  20. [19 déc. 12 19:34:29] * latro`a * carry on
  21. [19 déc. 12 19:34:31] * tsani * (iirc)
  22. [19 déc. 12 19:34:49] * latro`a * it probably did, as it usually does
  23. [19 déc. 12 19:34:50] * tsani * indeed
  24. [19 déc. 12 19:35:13] * tsani * When giving examples to nintadni, I have to hold back from saying {.i mi klama le zarci}; the CLL drilled that one into my head.
  25. [19 déc. 12 19:35:17] * latro`a * .u'i
  26. [19 déc. 12 19:35:50] * tsani * la djan .e la .alis. klama le zarci
  27. [19 déc. 12 19:36:02] * tsani * = la djan. klama le zarci .ije la .alis. klama le zarci
  28. [19 déc. 12 19:36:29] * tsani * Not only may the le zarci be different, it *might not even be a store at all!*
  29. [19 déc. 12 19:36:29] * latro`a * lol
  30. [19 déc. 12 19:36:36] * latro`a * though the same is sorta ish true under rigid-xorlo
  31. [19 déc. 12 19:36:49] * latro`a * incidentally, I always have to catch myself when I say rigid-xorlo
  32. [19 déc. 12 19:36:54] * tsani * Also, the CLL is funny to read now, because it looks like the things nintadni say when they first come on IRC :s
  33. [19 déc. 12 19:37:02] * latro`a * because it seems wrong but isn't
  34. [19 déc. 12 19:37:30] * latro`a * following the text rigidly results in flexible text
  35. [19 déc. 12 19:37:30] * latro`a * ...
  36. [19 déc. 12 19:37:30] * latro`a * following the text of the gadri proposal rigidly results in flexible utterances
  37. [19 déc. 12 19:37:30] * latro`a * ^better
  38. [19 déc. 12 19:38:09] * tsani * Indeed
  39. [19 déc. 12 19:38:33] * tsani * as in, {lo broda} might be {lo broda co'e}
  40. [19 déc. 12 19:38:34] * latro`a * I like {zo'e ne lo ka broda}
  41. [19 déc. 12 19:38:34] * latro`a * for rigid xorlo
  42. [19 déc. 12 19:38:34] * tsani * it's a nice one, yes
  43. [19 déc. 12 19:38:37] * latro`a * where the second lo is sane-lo
  44. [19 déc. 12 19:38:41] * latro`a * :p
  45. [19 déc. 12 19:38:56] * tsani * couldn't that lo use da instead?
  46. [19 déc. 12 19:39:00] < esoto has disconnected (Quit: leaving)
  47. [19 déc. 12 19:39:17] * latro`a * maybe
  48. [19 déc. 12 19:39:20] * latro`a * da-zo'e interactions are always strange
  49. [19 déc. 12 19:39:20] * tsani * To avoid circular definition of lo
  50. [19 déc. 12 19:39:20] * tsani * indeed
  51. [19 déc. 12 19:39:31] * latro`a * it's not circular though, you'd have another word for sane-lo
  52. [19 déc. 12 19:39:44] * tsani * zo'e noi da poi ka broda cu co'e ke'a
  53. [19 déc. 12 19:39:52] * latro`a * rather
  54. [19 déc. 12 19:39:56] * tsani * you get a da local to the noi
  55. [19 déc. 12 19:40:01] * latro`a * da-zo'e interactions would never be strange if zo'e were never quantified
  56. [19 déc. 12 19:40:04] * latro`a * the problem is that sometimes it is
  57. [19 déc. 12 19:40:04] * tsani * right
  58. [19 déc. 12 19:40:04] * latro`a * and sometimes it's subjected to the da-scope
  59. [19 déc. 12 19:40:07] * latro`a * which is REALLY weird
  60. [19 déc. 12 19:40:15] * tsani * zo'e has magic-scope :)
  61. [19 déc. 12 19:40:33] * tsani * .i ro da poi nanmu cu prami lo ninmu
  62. [19 déc. 12 19:40:47] * latro`a * (note selpa'i agrees with more or less nothing I just said unless you use outer quantifiers)
  63. [19 déc. 12 19:41:05] * latro`a * (mostly @ not tsani; tsani already knows this)
  64. [19 déc. 12 19:41:13] * tsani * Do they love one woman? Do they all love women (as in the abstract concept) ? Do they all love woman goo?
  65. [19 déc. 12 19:41:22] * latro`a * if it's woman goo, is it the same pile for each?
  66. [19 déc. 12 19:41:34] * tsani * maybe they love the abstract concept of woman goo
  67. [19 déc. 12 19:41:40] * tsani * without there actually being any such goo in the universe
  68. [19 déc. 12 19:41:54] * latro`a * I still can't get a straight answer from selpa'i about tu'o btw
  69. [19 déc. 12 19:42:20] * latro`a * or rather about whether tu'o is implicit
  70. [19 déc. 12 19:42:20] * latro`a * everywhere
  71. [19 déc. 12 19:42:27] * latro`a * I think his answer is that it is, and that weird kind shenanigans account for the cases where I think implicit xo'e would be cleaner
  72. [19 déc. 12 19:42:33] * latro`a * but he never really acknowledges that kind shenanigans are actually weird -_-
  73. [19 déc. 12 19:42:38] * tsani * .u'i
  74. [19 déc. 12 19:43:00] * tsani * Well, assuming lo = zo'e ne lo ka, then kind schenanigans *work*.
  75. [19 déc. 12 19:43:21] * latro`a * but I don't think anyone wants the definition to be THAT loose
  76. [19 déc. 12 19:43:23] * latro`a * hell, how the hell do you teach a nintadni that
  77. [19 déc. 12 19:43:27] * tsani * Right, because then you can't *say* anything.
  78. [19 déc. 12 19:43:29] * tsani * Also yeah
  79. [19 déc. 12 19:43:37] * latro`a * I think if I told a nintadni that they'd just leave\
  80. [19 déc. 12 19:44:01] * tsani * "Okay, you know 'the' in English? When {lo} sort of works that way, but when you get more experienced, I'll tell you that I was lying."
  81. [19 déc. 12 19:44:11] * latro`a * heavily, not just kinda lying
  82. [19 déc. 12 19:44:41] > erkin has joined
  83. [19 déc. 12 19:44:42] * latro`a * saying standard-idiom-lo kind of works like "the" is lying a little but not too much
  84. [19 déc. 12 19:44:46] > trillioneyes has joined
  85. [19 déc. 12 19:45:18] * tsani * Also, lo just does everything articles (or lack thereof) do in English: I like a bear, I like bears, I like some bears, I like bear goo, I like the bear goo, I like some bear goos.
  86. [19 déc. 12 19:45:35] * latro`a * you missed "the bear"
  87. [19 déc. 12 19:45:38] * latro`a * and "the bears"
  88. [19 déc. 12 19:45:38] * latro`a * :p
  89. [19 déc. 12 19:45:38] * tsani * I might like them as a collective or distributively
  90. [19 déc. 12 19:45:51] * tsani * I do not like lo here or there, I do not like lo anywhere!
  91. [19 déc. 12 19:45:52] < triliyn has disconnected (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  92. [19 déc. 12 19:45:55] * latro`a * lol
  93. [19 déc. 12 19:46:46] * tsani * Hm
  94. [19 déc. 12 19:47:38] * tsani * A rule: when lo is under the scope of da, there is no guarantee of constancy. ?
  95. [19 déc. 12 19:47:38] * tsani * Hence, {ro da poi nanmu cu prami lo ninmu} might have distributive lo, might not.
  96. [19 déc. 12 19:47:38] * latro`a * which basic framework do you mean
  97. [19 déc. 12 19:47:45] * latro`a * under rigid-xorlo you always have constancy
  98. [19 déc. 12 19:47:49] * tsani * As in, in {ro da poi nanmu cu prami lo ninmu} it might actually be {ro da poi nanmu cu prami de poi ninmu}
  99. [19 déc. 12 19:47:54] * latro`a * and this works because the relation is with the kind, which magically extracts for each da
  100. [19 déc. 12 19:48:12] * latro`a * or...something
  101. [19 déc. 12 19:48:12] * latro`a * can't even really do that
  102. [19 déc. 12 19:48:14] * latro`a * because you have no promise that the lo behaves distributively
  103. [19 déc. 12 19:48:24] * latro`a * extracts-or-doesn't for each da, then
  104. [19 déc. 12 19:48:55] * latro`a * it could, but the rigid-xorlo perspective is that you're not actually relating men to women in that statement, necessarily
  105. [19 déc. 12 19:49:03] * latro`a * you're relating individuals that are definitely men to women-ish-things
  106. [19 déc. 12 19:49:04] * tsani * right
  107. [19 déc. 12 19:49:13] * tsani * so {de pe lo ka ninmu} ?
  108. [19 déc. 12 19:49:23] * latro`a * you don't even guarantee that
  109. [19 déc. 12 19:49:29] * latro`a * again, the lo ninmu might not even exist
  110. [19 déc. 12 19:49:30] * tsani * hrm
  111. [19 déc. 12 19:49:32] * latro`a * mi prami lo pavyseljirna
  112. [19 déc. 12 19:49:32] * tsani * right
  113. [19 déc. 12 19:49:48] * latro`a * rigid-xorlo makes so few promises it's a nightmare to reason about
  114. [19 déc. 12 19:50:36] * tsani * lo -- generic article -- makes so few promises that what you say, what you mean to say, and what people understand from what you say might be completely unrelated.
  115. [19 déc. 12 19:51:33] * tsani * roughly equivalent to zo'e ne lo ka broda (the lo there isn't the one being described), but with extremely context dependent rules for distributivity when in the absence of quantifiers.
  116. [19 déc. 12 19:51:53] * tsani * Interactions with existential and universal claims are undefined.
  117. [19 déc. 12 19:52:19] * tsani * (Any attemps to defined them are poor at best.)
  118. [19 déc. 12 19:52:51] * tsani * -- okay, I think that does it :)
  119. [19 déc. 12 19:53:18] * tsani * </lo-rant>
  120. [19 déc. 12 19:53:39] * latro`a * heh
  121. [19 déc. 12 19:55:05] * selpa`i * What is going on here
  122. [19 déc. 12 19:55:24] * selpa`i * I was hoping that I wouldn't have to talk about lo again until next year.
  123. [19 déc. 12 19:55:48] * latro`a * you don't need to, I think I more or less understand your opinion at this point
  124. [19 déc. 12 19:56:01] * selpa`i * No you don't.
  125. [19 déc. 12 19:56:03] * selpa`i * Based on what you keep saying, you clearly don't.
  126. [19 déc. 12 19:56:08] * selpa`i * And I don't comment on tu'o because I don't really get your idea
  127. [19 déc. 12 19:56:33] * latro`a * you've explained how the tu'o thing interacts with your opinion; lo sumti are constant, but they may be constant in the sense of kinds, enabling superficially distributive behavior
  128. [19 déc. 12 19:56:44] * latro`a * which isn't actually distributive at the level of kinds
  129. [19 déc. 12 19:57:11] * selpa`i * No, *you* said "kinds"
  130. [19 déc. 12 19:57:17] * latro`a * same for general zo'e sumti
  131. [19 déc. 12 19:57:17] * selpa`i * And there is no tu'o in my opinion
  132. [19 déc. 12 19:57:17] * latro`a * I know
  133. [19 déc. 12 19:57:17] * latro`a * but that just means that to you tu'o lo = lo
  134. [19 déc. 12 19:57:50] * latro`a * also, yes, I introduced the word kinds as a way of explaining what exactly these sumti that may not actually be a thing at all are
  135. [19 déc. 12 19:57:57] * selpa`i * You first need to define what tu'o means as quantifier in your world
  136. [19 déc. 12 19:58:19] * selpa`i * tu'o was originally not meant for such things
  137. [19 déc. 12 19:58:27] * latro`a * I've defined it pretty clearly; to me lo = tu'o lo or xo'e lo depending on context; tu'o is the explicit absence of a quantifier, while xo'e is the explicit presence of an unspecified quantifier
  138. [19 déc. 12 19:58:29] * latro`a * yes, I know
  139. [19 déc. 12 19:58:40] < erkin has disconnected (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying...)
  140. [19 déc. 12 19:58:46] * latro`a * we could have used a different word, tu'o was just available, unused, and has more or less the desired semantics
  141. [19 déc. 12 19:58:48] * selpa`i * A quantifier that is no quantifier, yes?
  142. [19 déc. 12 19:59:01] * selpa`i * That's so silly
  143. [19 déc. 12 19:59:14] * selpa`i * But okay.
  144. [19 déc. 12 19:59:15] * latro`a * now you're doing the same thing as what you complain about me doing
  145. [19 déc. 12 19:59:15] * latro`a * please don't do that
  146. [19 déc. 12 19:59:15] * latro`a * I'll try not to do the same
  147. [19 déc. 12 19:59:41] * latro`a * the place where I struggle to do so is in coping with the notion of using kinds to get away with everything
  148. [19 déc. 12 19:59:41] * selpa`i * Why? Didn't you just say some minutes ago that "selpa'i doesn't admit to this weirdness" ?
  149. [19 déc. 12 19:59:53] * latro`a * it's not that you don't say what you mean, it's that you don't seem to think that it's weird
  150. [19 déc. 12 20:00:13] * latro`a * which I find strange
  151. [19 déc. 12 20:00:13] * latro`a * not necessarily wrong or silly
  152. [19 déc. 12 20:00:14] * latro`a * I find kind shenanigans absolutely bizarre
  153. [19 déc. 12 20:00:19] * selpa`i * Okay
  154. [19 déc. 12 20:00:43] * latro`a * finding it strange vs. wrong/silly are quite different
  155. [19 déc. 12 20:00:45] * selpa`i * Again, kinds do not really come into play unless it helps you to use it as a metaphor to understand xorlo
  156. [19 déc. 12 20:00:45] * latro`a * strange is not bad; wrong/silly are bad
  157. [19 déc. 12 20:01:08] * latro`a * they do if you want to give a name to what sort of sumti these non-thing sumti are
  158. [19 déc. 12 20:01:16] * latro`a * which xorlo introduces
  159. [19 déc. 12 20:01:23] * latro`a * you could use broda-goo if you wanted, it's the same concept
  160. [19 déc. 12 20:01:48] * selpa`i * I'm not sure I'm in the mood to discuss xorlo at the moment.
  161. [19 déc. 12 20:01:57] * latro`a * I didn't really ask you to, so you don't have to; I think I understand your opinion as best as I'm going to
  162. [19 déc. 12 20:02:14] * selpa`i * I doubt that.
  163. [19 déc. 12 20:02:45] * latro`a * in fact I think I understand your opinion better than you think I understand it, I'm just using "kind" in a very vague way deliberately
  164. [19 déc. 12 20:02:46] * latro`a * because it refers to a very vague idea
  165. [19 déc. 12 20:02:46] * selpa`i * If we started over from scratch, I'm sure I could convey everything more clearly
  166. [19 déc. 12 20:03:17] * selpa`i * But if we are going to, then I would like you to not always immediately chime in and say "nope" right away and let me finish
  167. [19 déc. 12 20:03:44] * latro`a * I'd ask the same (I'm not sure you really understand my opinions either)
  168. [19 déc. 12 20:03:45] > djeimsyxuis_ has joined
  169. [19 déc. 12 20:04:42] * selpa`i * The thing is that it's not so much my opinion as it is just xorlo. And the fact that you make me responsible for xorlo's apparant weirdness is odd
  170. [19 déc. 12 20:05:07] * latro`a * I haven't seen anyone else adhere as rigidly to the statement of the gadri proposal as you
  171. [19 déc. 12 20:05:21] * latro`a * even xorxes in the lions and levels thread
  172. [19 déc. 12 20:05:33] * selpa`i * Could you be more specific?
  173. [19 déc. 12 20:05:49] * latro`a * there's nothing to be specific about, if you look at his posts in there he talks about induced functions and such as actually being a good way to reason about this
  174. [19 déc. 12 20:06:22] * selpa`i * There are many metaphors you can use to understand how xorlo works
  175. [19 déc. 12 20:06:30] < infoscav has disconnected (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  176. [19 déc. 12 20:06:54] * selpa`i * Use whichever one is the most natural to you
  177. [19 déc. 12 20:06:58] * latro`a * there are no reasonable functions in rigid-xorlo
  178. [19 déc. 12 20:06:59] < djeimsyxuis has disconnected (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
  179. [19 déc. 12 20:06:59] ^ djeimsyxuis_ is now known as djeimsyxuis
  180. [19 déc. 12 20:06:59] * latro`a * because there's basically no promises made by rigid-xorlo
  181. [19 déc. 12 20:07:38] * selpa`i * That's the point of xorlo. It makes no promises, all it does is give you a sumti.
  182. [19 déc. 12 20:07:40] * latro`a * you have to have promises to talk about things like quantifier interactions
  183. [19 déc. 12 20:07:40] * selpa`i * lo won't add anything
  184. [19 déc. 12 20:07:43] * latro`a * yes, I know that's the philosophy, I'm saying that that philosophy is borderline useless
  185. [19 déc. 12 20:07:48] * selpa`i * neither distributivity, nor anything else
  186. [19 déc. 12 20:07:52] * Ilmen * coi
  187. [19 déc. 12 20:08:05] < trillioneyes has disconnected (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
  188. [19 déc. 12 20:08:11] * latro`a * it's an extreme reaction to an extreme previous policy
  189. [19 déc. 12 20:08:11] * selpa`i * How can you say that
  190. [19 déc. 12 20:08:11] * selpa`i * Practice shows the opposite
  191. [19 déc. 12 20:08:12] * selpa`i * It works perfectly fine
  192. [19 déc. 12 20:08:23] * latro`a * no, practice shows that people don't internalize the no-promise definition
  193. [19 déc. 12 20:08:33] * selpa`i * What's so bad about context doing things for you?
  194. [19 déc. 12 20:08:39] * latro`a * when it does EVERYTHING, everything
  195. [19 déc. 12 20:08:50] * selpa`i * The rest of lojban is full of context dependecy
  196. [19 déc. 12 20:08:50] * selpa`i * le'ai
  197. [19 déc. 12 20:08:51] * latro`a * lo'ai/sa'ai/le'ai is a terrible hack that is convenient for IRC
  198. [19 déc. 12 20:08:56] * selpa`i * ..
  199. [19 déc. 12 20:09:01] * selpa`i * I used le'ai to correct my typo
  200. [19 déc. 12 20:09:06] * latro`a * oh
  201. [19 déc. 12 20:09:12] * latro`a * point stands anyways
  202. [19 déc. 12 20:09:18] > triliyn has joined
  203. [19 déc. 12 20:09:26] * Ilmen * valsi le'ai
  204. [19 déc. 12 20:09:28] * valsi * le'ai = replace recent mistakenly uttered text
  205. [19 déc. 12 20:09:42] * Ilmen * valsi lo'ai
  206. [19 déc. 12 20:09:52] * valsi * lo'ai = start quote of recent mistakenly uttered text to be replaced
  207. [19 déc. 12 20:09:53] * selpa`i * Look, it's not *lo* that does everything, it's context that does
  208. [19 déc. 12 20:10:19] * selpa`i * The lo sumti is just an empty shell
  209. [19 déc. 12 20:10:51] * latro`a * but it's a shell that you know nothing about a priori
  210. [19 déc. 12 20:10:52] * latro`a * which is worse than old-le
  211. [19 déc. 12 20:11:08] * triliyn * {lo'ai ... sa'ai ... le'ai} is like "s/.../.../"
  212. [19 déc. 12 20:11:23] * selpa`i * All you know is that 1) it fits the x1 of broda, and 2) it is relevant somehow because otherwise the speaker wouldn#t have said it
  213. [19 déc. 12 20:11:26] * latro`a * no, it doesn't even fit the x1 of broda
  214. [19 déc. 12 20:11:31] * latro`a * that's what we've been saying
  215. [19 déc. 12 20:11:38] < djeimsyxuis has disconnected (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi)
  216. [19 déc. 12 20:11:44] * latro`a * it has something loose to do with the x1 of broda
  217. [19 déc. 12 20:11:48] * triliyn * (or at least I think that's the order)
  218. [19 déc. 12 20:11:49] * latro`a * but lo ninmu needn't be a woman, and makes sense even if no women exist
  219. [19 déc. 12 20:11:54] * latro`a * under rigid-xorlo
  220. [19 déc. 12 20:12:44] * selpa`i * If you look at a boat from far above, and see some dark spot on it, you say lo prenu and you can't possibly see from that distance whether it's a group of living people or a bunch of squashed sailors
  221. [19 déc. 12 20:12:59] * latro`a * lo cribe again needn't be a bear, or any number of bears, considered distributively or otherwise
  222. [19 déc. 12 20:13:02] * selpa`i * It's not as extreme as the lo broda co'e you've been using
  223. [19 déc. 12 20:13:02] * latro`a * no, it is
  224. [19 déc. 12 20:13:07] * latro`a * because you're not making any promises about whether it actually IS a broda
  225. [19 déc. 12 20:13:23] * latro`a * if you just think it might be a broda, as in the sailor example, you should SAY that
  226. [19 déc. 12 20:13:23] * latro`a * instead of forcing everyday discussion to be vague
  227. [19 déc. 12 20:13:24] * selpa`i * But it looks like sailors
  228. [19 déc. 12 20:13:33] * selpa`i * I can't run around and doubt every sumti i use
  229. [19 déc. 12 20:14:16] * selpa`i * Am I supposed to take every object I want to talk about to the lab first
  230. [19 déc. 12 20:14:16] * latro`a * sure you can; you could build lojban in fuzzy logic, force every description sumti to have a probability marker
  231. [19 déc. 12 20:14:17] * latro`a * but that's an extreme case
  232. [19 déc. 12 20:14:17] * latro`a * my point is if you aren't pretty sure, i.e. willing to make a promise that you might be wrong about
  233. [19 déc. 12 20:14:24] * latro`a * then you shouldn't use something that promises to provide an x1
  234. [19 déc. 12 20:14:32] * latro`a * which xorlo does NOT
  235. [19 déc. 12 20:14:38] * latro`a * explicitly does NOT
  236. [19 déc. 12 20:14:45] * latro`a * or rather, it does not under a model of predication which is actually restrictive
  237. [19 déc. 12 20:15:05] * latro`a * it does under a model of predication that I still can't understand (as it must, given the gadri proposal lojban definition)
  238. [19 déc. 12 20:15:18] * selpa`i * Again, if you use a lo broda that fails to communicate, then that's the speakers fault for failing at pragmatics
  239. [19 déc. 12 20:15:32] * latro`a * we're talking past each other again, so we should just stop
  240. [19 déc. 12 20:15:50] * tsani * The problem with xorlo is that it clearly violates referential transparency; it can provide referents that definitely aren't the x1 of broda.
  241. [19 déc. 12 20:17:15] * latro`a * again, under a model of predication that actually makes *PREDICATION* provide any promises
  242. [19 déc. 12 20:17:15] * latro`a * having lo broda = zo'e noi ke'a broda causes predication itself to provide no promises
  243. [19 déc. 12 20:17:15] * latro`a * if lo broda also makes no promises
  244. [19 déc. 12 20:17:15] * selpa`i * Fine, you have a problem with bear goo, that'S legit, now what if bear goo weren't a thing, I guess there are more things you dislike
  245. [19 déc. 12 20:17:16] * selpa`i * More important things
  246. [19 déc. 12 20:17:46] * latro`a * I don't *insist* on distributivity by default; I think it should be that way, but that doing so would require additional refactoring that I don't think is necessary
  247. [19 déc. 12 20:18:09] * latro`a * I do insist that once you throw out anything having to do with bear goo you have to make a call on constancy vs. non-constancy as default
  248. [19 déc. 12 20:18:16] * latro`a * erm
  249. [19 déc. 12 20:18:20] * latro`a * whether there is a default, rather
  250. [19 déc. 12 20:18:25] * latro`a * and if so which one
  251. [19 déc. 12 20:18:44] * latro`a * providing constancy as the default *in the absence of anything to do with bear goo* breaks established usage
  252. [19 déc. 12 20:18:57] * latro`a * not just things that are written down but even things that are said everyday
  253. [19 déc. 12 20:19:01] * Ilmen * What is constancy?
  254. [19 déc. 12 20:19:22] * selpa`i * It can't be distributive by default because lo's purpose is to add *nothing*. Adding distributivity would be adding something, which is against lo's philosophy.
  255. [19 déc. 12 20:20:07] * latro`a * the point of that statement was that I philosophically disagree with the notion that lo should go in neither direction but do not think that doing so is a broken idea
  256. [19 déc. 12 20:20:21] * selpa`i * You can force distributivity by adding ro, and you can force mass-ness by using lu'o
  257. [19 déc. 12 20:20:22] * latro`a * in other words, you were prompting me
  258. [19 déc. 12 20:20:22] * latro`a * and I responded to the first obvious question
  259. [19 déc. 12 20:20:31] * latro`a * with basically "yes, I think this, but I don't mind if it doesn't happen"
  260. [19 déc. 12 20:20:49] * latro`a * so there's really no reason for you to respond to that point
  261. [19 déc. 12 20:20:55] * selpa`i * huh? I'm just saying my opinion here
  262. [19 déc. 12 20:21:46] * latro`a * not really sure why, given the above where you started asking for what I don't like
  263. [19 déc. 12 20:22:20] * latro`a * ilmen--do you know any predicate logic?
  264. [19 déc. 12 20:22:21] * latro`a * constancy is easiest to explain in that framework
  265. [19 déc. 12 20:22:32] * latro`a * if not I can give a somewhat more vague explanation
  266. [19 déc. 12 20:23:01] * latro`a * (using lojban as the notation instead)
  267. [19 déc. 12 20:23:20] * selpa`i * I thought that was how a conversation worked, one person says something, the other answers. Do you not want a conversation? It's fine with me if you don't, but I'm confused
  268. [19 déc. 12 20:23:27] * Ilmen * Hem, I never studied deeply predicate logic, I did read a little about on Wikipedia
  269. [19 déc. 12 20:23:47] * latro`a * maybe I misinterpreted your statement as a prompt; the point of my statement was basically "this is probably the first thing you have in mind, and I don't see any reason to talk about it, because ..."
  270. [19 déc. 12 20:24:14] * latro`a * then I moved on
  271. [19 déc. 12 20:24:44] * latro`a * hence the parallel "I don't insist" vs. "I do insist", as in, I'm pressing this issue over that one
  272. [19 déc. 12 20:24:59] * Ilmen * With ?, ? and all that stuff
  273. [19 déc. 12 20:25:12] * latro`a * that's sufficient
  274. [19 déc. 12 20:25:12] < triliyn has disconnected (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  275. [19 déc. 12 20:25:45] * selpa`i * Ah alright, sorry. Then I should be addressing the "I do insist" part
  276. [19 déc. 12 20:26:15] * selpa`i * xorlo clearly says yes to constants
  277. [19 déc. 12 20:26:46] * latro`a * indeed
  278. [19 déc. 12 20:27:43] * latro`a * ilmen--a constant variable's referents are unaffected by quantifier scope; for example, if {ko'a} is constant, and {ro da broda ko'a}, then every object brodas the same thing
  279. [19 déc. 12 20:28:13] * Ilmen * je'e
  280. [19 déc. 12 20:28:44] * selpa`i * {ko'a broda ro da} == {ro da broda ko'a}
  281. [19 déc. 12 20:28:44] * latro`a * *se
  282. [19 déc. 12 20:28:45] * latro`a * but yes
  283. [19 déc. 12 20:28:45] * selpa`i * Yes.
  284. [19 déc. 12 20:29:04] * selpa`i * The same applies to negation.
  285. [19 déc. 12 20:29:06] * latro`a * my point in introducing this was that, barring bear goo, {ro lo nanmu cu prami lo ninmu} probably makes ninmu non-constant
  286. [19 déc. 12 20:29:24] * latro`a * *lo ninmu
  287. [19 déc. 12 20:29:56] * selpa`i * This is really the core of the debate.
  288. [19 déc. 12 20:30:00] < Suprano has disconnected (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  289. [19 déc. 12 20:30:04] * Ilmen * .a'u
  290. [19 déc. 12 20:30:16] > Suprano has joined
  291. [19 déc. 12 20:30:18] * latro`a * the more important point is whether lo even promises to give you an x1, but I think we ultimately agree on that point
  292. [19 déc. 12 20:30:35] * selpa`i * It does.
  293. [19 déc. 12 20:30:49] * latro`a * if it gives you bear goo then it doesn't, but we've moved on from that point
  294. [19 déc. 12 20:30:51] * selpa`i * Yes, please no more bear goo
  295. [19 déc. 12 20:31:04] * Ilmen * When you say "gives an x1", you mean "a specific instance that fit x1"?
  296. [19 déc. 12 20:31:07] * latro`a * but the question is what sort of thing is an x1
  297. [19 déc. 12 20:31:11] * Ilmen * *fits
  298. [19 déc. 12 20:31:22] * latro`a * no
  299. [19 déc. 12 20:31:23] * latro`a * something that actually is in the x1
  300. [19 déc. 12 20:31:23] * latro`a * rather than something vaguely having to do with the position
  301. [19 déc. 12 20:31:24] * latro`a * which is where the whole "bear goo" thing comes from
  302. [19 déc. 12 20:31:52] * latro`a * {lo cribe} under the strict statement of the gadri proposal could mean "bear goo"
  303. [19 déc. 12 20:32:33] * Ilmen * As for {cribe}, do it stats that x1 is a biological bear?
  304. [19 déc. 12 20:33:08] * latro`a * it does; use le/skicu/fukpi/etc. to get at teddy bears and such
  305. [19 déc. 12 20:33:17] * Ilmen * je'e
  306. [19 déc. 12 20:33:51] * latro`a * but under rigid-xorlo a teddy bear could probably be a referent of {lo cribe}
  307. [19 déc. 12 20:33:51] * Ilmen * Can a death bear be said to be {cribe}?
  308. [19 déc. 12 20:34:11] * selpa`i * As an aside, I do not find it weird to call a run-over dog a gerku, especially not if I'm a detective and telling my assistant wattson {ta gerku .i simlu lo ka pu zi mrobi'o}
  309. [19 déc. 12 20:34:19] * selpa`i * Leaving out tense.
  310. [19 déc. 12 20:34:44] * latro`a * a dead bear probably, but now you start getting into ontological issues that the BPFK explicitly said it will not address universally
  311. [19 déc. 12 20:34:47] * latro`a * also, that issue is subtle
  312. [19 déc. 12 20:35:05] * latro`a * and gets into issues about what {ta} can be
  313. [19 déc. 12 20:35:05] * latro`a * there I probably agree with you, but the distinctions get blurry
  314. [19 déc. 12 20:35:06] * selpa`i * Sure.
  315. [19 déc. 12 20:35:11] * latro`a * the notion that that corpse WAS a dog
  316. [19 déc. 12 20:35:21] * latro`a * is sketchy in some ways
  317. [19 déc. 12 20:35:26] * Ilmen * A "was-bear" is probably safer :p
  318. [19 déc. 12 20:35:26] * selpa`i * But here I trust people to not use bad lo broda when they shouldn't
  319. [19 déc. 12 20:35:57] * latro`a * even the notion that it was a dog at some point is amiss
  320. [19 déc. 12 20:35:58] * latro`a * in some ways
  321. [19 déc. 12 20:35:59] * latro`a * because once you allow that it's rather hard to draw the line anywhere else
  322. [19 déc. 12 20:36:07] * latro`a * but we're not going to try
  323. [19 déc. 12 20:36:15] * latro`a * and people will probably understand if you call a corpse lo gerku
  324. [19 déc. 12 20:36:57] * Ilmen * Well, gotta go. co'o rodo
  325. [19 déc. 12 20:37:30] * latro`a * the thing is, once you've rejected bear goo, it starts getting hard to figure out where the line actually is
  326. [19 déc. 12 20:37:32] * Ilmen * Although this was an interesting discussion :)
  327. [19 déc. 12 20:37:47] * latro`a * it obviously isn't sharp, as the BPFK isn't going to answer ontology questions in general
  328. [19 déc. 12 20:38:19] * latro`a * but for example whether it can be "bears in general"
  329. [19 déc. 12 20:38:25] * selpa`i * Back to the heart of the issue
  330. [19 déc. 12 20:38:36] * latro`a * this is that
  331. [19 déc. 12 20:38:40] * selpa`i * Yes
  332. [19 déc. 12 20:38:52] * latro`a * it's having to do with what {lo ninmu} is
  333. [19 déc. 12 20:38:53] * latro`a * in a sentence like that
  334. [19 déc. 12 20:39:01] * selpa`i * Meh, I was hoping to explain everything in a video, so "spoiling" everything now seems terrible .u'i
  335. [19 déc. 12 20:39:21] * latro`a * if it's constant, but actually {la bab prami la karol .i la djan prami la djein .i ...}
  336. [19 déc. 12 20:39:33] * latro`a * then...what exactly is it
  337. [19 déc. 12 20:39:35] * latro`a * in what sense does each man love "it"
  338. [19 déc. 12 20:39:41] > triliyn has joined
  339. [19 déc. 12 20:39:59] * latro`a * because it's unambiguous that each man loves {lo ninmu} whatever {lo ninmu} means, that comes from straightforward expansion
  340. [19 déc. 12 20:40:00] * latro`a * (assuming lo ninmu is constant for the moment)
  341. [19 déc. 12 20:40:10] * latro`a * so in what sense does {la djan prami lo ninmu}, with the same referent
  342. [19 déc. 12 20:40:37] * selpa`i * I'm in a dilemma. Should I explain everything now and then have a boring video or wait and have people actually find the video useful?
  343. [19 déc. 12 20:40:49] * latro`a * do what you want
  344. [19 déc. 12 20:41:04] < Suprano has disconnected (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  345. [19 déc. 12 20:41:29] > Suprano has joined
  346. [19 déc. 12 20:44:11] * selpa`i * Are you even interested enough in what I have to say?
  347. [19 déc. 12 20:44:39] * tsani * I've been listening this whole time, and I'd like to see what your opinion on the heart of this matter is, selpa'i.
  348. [19 déc. 12 20:44:41] * latro`a * depends what "enough" means obviously; I'm interested to hear your opinion, but I strongly doubt it will change mine
  349. [19 déc. 12 20:45:14] < zugz has disconnected (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  350. [19 déc. 12 20:45:14] * selpa`i * Hrm
  351. [19 déc. 12 20:45:15] * tsani * I think that a video is nonetheless a good idea, to explain your views to others later.
  352. [19 déc. 12 20:45:35] * latro`a * having something permanent and clean would be good
  353. [19 déc. 12 20:45:58] * tsani * indeed.
  354. [19 déc. 12 20:46:41] * latro`a * whether a video or a few paragraphs written in non-IRC-english
  355. [19 déc. 12 20:46:41] * tsani * Anyway, I must eat, but I will read anything that gets said.
  356. [19 déc. 12 20:46:42] * selpa`i * A video is good because it works well for how I visualize {me}
  357. [19 déc. 12 20:46:42] * selpa`i * .a'o kukte do
  358. [19 déc. 12 20:46:42] > erkin has joined
  359. [19 déc. 12 20:46:43] * selpa`i * mi ji'a xagji
  360. [19 déc. 12 20:47:44] * selpa`i * So let's see. There are two (three? how many) main points, what {lo broda} is, what {me} does, and how {lo broda} *acts*, and also some related things concerning certain pro-sumti and connectives-
  361. [19 déc. 12 20:47:52] * selpa`i * Anything else I forgot?
  362. [19 déc. 12 20:48:14] * latro`a * I think that's pretty much everything
  363. [19 déc. 12 20:48:19] * selpa`i * Right, and how {lo broda} is a constant
  364. [19 déc. 12 20:48:31] * latro`a * also how {me} acts when NOT dealing with zo'e, and whether it's the same thing
  365. [19 déc. 12 20:48:31] * selpa`i * I can explain all the above.
  366. [19 déc. 12 20:48:54] * selpa`i * Not with zo'e?
  367. [19 déc. 12 20:49:12] * selpa`i * Example?
  368. [19 déc. 12 20:49:30] * selpa`i * I'm really in a bad mental state at the moment, had a tough day.
  369. [19 déc. 12 20:49:48] * selpa`i * So if you could make things concrete it would a lot
  370. [19 déc. 12 20:50:00] * selpa`i * help*
  371. [19 déc. 12 20:50:05] * latro`a * any case, really; obviously {me da} doesn't make sense, but to me the meaning of {PA lo broda} when {lo broda} isn't actually made up of individuals requires {me} to behave in a way other than actually being a "referent"
  372. [19 déc. 12 20:50:35] * latro`a * unfortunately most of the examples I can think of have the same problem; PA mi'o for example does too
  373. [19 déc. 12 20:50:48] * selpa`i * Alright.
  374. [19 déc. 12 20:50:53] * latro`a * so maybe it's more just "in what sense does {me} provide a "referent""
  375. [19 déc. 12 20:50:53] * selpa`i * Sure sure, I will adress those
  376. [19 déc. 12 20:50:57] * selpa`i * How long will you be here ?
  377. [19 déc. 12 20:51:20] * latro`a * do you have a time scale in mind?
  378. [19 déc. 12 20:51:25] * latro`a * like....I'm gonna take a shower in a minute, and I need to get dinner in a few hours
  379. [19 déc. 12 20:51:53] * selpa`i * Well I'm hungry and would like to eat a little bit, but if you have to leave soon then that would kinda ruin the convo
  380. [19 déc. 12 20:52:15] * latro`a * I'm not leaving for an extended period within at least the next hour or so
  381. [19 déc. 12 20:52:22] * latro`a * at least that's ot planned
  382. [19 déc. 12 20:52:23] * latro`a * *not
  383. [19 déc. 12 20:52:50] * selpa`i * Let's see if that is enough time :)
  384. [19 déc. 12 20:53:11] * selpa`i * I'll be back in a minute
  385. [19 déc. 12 20:54:51] > Hugglesworth has joined
  386. [19 déc. 12 20:56:58] * selpa`i * Hmm
  387. [19 déc. 12 20:57:22] * selpa`i * Where to begin
  388. [19 déc. 12 20:58:32] * selpa`i * The most whorfy part is what lo broda is, but I can also get to {me} and the related questions first
  389. [19 déc. 12 20:58:59] * selpa`i * They are somewhat unrelated on a large scale
  390. [19 déc. 12 21:01:27] * selpa`i * Okay, maybe even before that, let us agree on terminology, an invidual can be anything from a person, a number, a set, a predication, a mass etc. All those are things that Lojban calls individuals.
  391. [19 déc. 12 21:01:46] * selpa`i * individual*
  392. [19 déc. 12 21:02:05] * selpa`i * Probably obvious, but who knows
  393. [19 déc. 12 21:04:45] * selpa`i * A "referent" is always one of those (or a collection of individuals of those kinds, since number is not specified, Lojban has plural reference)
  394. [19 déc. 12 21:07:18] * selpa`i * All these different kinds of referents are mutually distinct, they differ in what x1 of which broda they satisfy.
  395. [19 déc. 12 21:07:58] * selpa`i * A mass (which is a terrible term, I will henceforth call it gunma) is always the x1 of gunma
  396. [19 déc. 12 21:08:19] * selpa`i * The referent is therefore a gunma. (and nothing else)
  397. [19 déc. 12 21:08:19] * selpa`i * (again plural is possible)
  398. [19 déc. 12 21:09:16] * selpa`i * A gunma is special in that its members don't matter anymore, they are not "on the outer shell" anymore, they are not referents of lo gunma
  399. [19 déc. 12 21:09:38] * selpa`i * So they all melted into one blob.
  400. [19 déc. 12 21:09:58] * selpa`i * (not literally of course)
  401. [19 déc. 12 21:10:00] * selpa`i * I will wait here.
  402. [19 déc. 12 21:11:20] > trillion has joined
  403. [19 déc. 12 21:12:26] < snanu has disconnected (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  404. [19 déc. 12 21:13:56] < triliyn has disconnected (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  405. [19 déc. 12 21:17:21] * latro`a * di'a
  406. [19 déc. 12 21:17:27] * latro`a * .i co'u lumci
  407. [19 déc. 12 21:17:33] * selpa`i * je'e
  408. [19 déc. 12 21:19:59] > djeimsyxuis has joined
  409. [19 déc. 12 21:22:34] < weab_ has disconnected (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  410. [19 déc. 12 21:23:04] * selpa`i * (I'm waiting for feedback btw, to make sure we're on the same page)
  411. [19 déc. 12 21:23:04] < Suprano has disconnected (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  412. [19 déc. 12 21:23:30] > weab has joined
  413. [19 déc. 12 21:23:30] > Suprano has joined
  414. [19 déc. 12 21:23:56] * latro`a * oh
  415. [19 déc. 12 21:24:20] * tsani * di'a jundi
  416. [19 déc. 12 21:24:20] * selpa`i * :P
  417. [19 déc. 12 21:24:24] * latro`a * pretty much fine, though you should probably also introduce "individual-collection" as opposed to mass
  418. [19 déc. 12 21:24:58] * latro`a * it's implicit in what you've said, sorta, but it's still a pertinent definition
  419. [19 déc. 12 21:25:27] * selpa`i * Right, it's somewhat implicit. I was just testing more general things like "what is an individual"
  420. [19 déc. 12 21:25:30] * selpa`i * Good
  421. [19 déc. 12 21:25:46] * selpa`i * So the "x1 of broda" will yield one of the above referent-types, depending on what the particular broda is.
  422. [19 déc. 12 21:25:50] * latro`a * the only thing you haven't clarified is how exactly a referent relates to the syntactic sumti
  423. [19 déc. 12 21:25:54] < carado has disconnected (Remote host closed the connection)
  424. [19 déc. 12 21:25:58] * latro`a * but you'll get to that when you get to {me}
  425. [19 déc. 12 21:26:04] * selpa`i * Right.
  426. [19 déc. 12 21:26:48] * selpa`i * There are two sides to {lo} in a way. Let's first look at the one that leads to {me}
  427. [19 déc. 12 21:27:13] * selpa`i * The other direction will lead to how {lo broda} is constant and why it works.
  428. [19 déc. 12 21:27:55] * selpa`i * An individual collection is one or more invididuals together.
  429. [19 déc. 12 21:27:59] < weab has disconnected (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  430. [19 déc. 12 21:28:11] * selpa`i * This is what {lo} creates (on this side of the journey)
  431. [19 déc. 12 21:28:19] * selpa`i * Here is a way to visualize what kind of individual collection {lo} creates.
  432. [19 déc. 12 21:28:31] * selpa`i * Take some random one, say tadni.
  433. [19 déc. 12 21:28:39] * selpa`i * (not random, I know :) )
  434. [19 déc. 12 21:29:01] * selpa`i * Have lo tadni refer to a couple of students
  435. [19 déc. 12 21:29:14] * selpa`i * Three should be enough
  436. [19 déc. 12 21:29:26] * selpa`i * Now place these three students in a spot
  437. [19 déc. 12 21:29:28] * selpa`i * and draw a circle around them
  438. [19 déc. 12 21:29:39] * selpa`i * This is your individual collection.
  439. [19 déc. 12 21:29:57] * latro`a * (try to avoid "your", if possible)
  440. [19 déc. 12 21:30:18] * selpa`i * Noted.
  441. [19 déc. 12 21:30:19] * latro`a * (sorry for pedantry, but it's ambiguous, especially in sentences like that)
  442. [19 déc. 12 21:30:19] * selpa`i * Oh
  443. [19 déc. 12 21:30:22] * selpa`i * This is *a* ind coll
  444. [19 déc. 12 21:30:28] * selpa`i * *an*
  445. [19 déc. 12 21:30:30] * selpa`i * even
  446. [19 déc. 12 21:30:49] * selpa`i * The line of the circle should not be bold, because it's penetratable
  447. [19 déc. 12 21:30:54] * selpa`i * And it should be elastic
  448. [19 déc. 12 21:31:23] > weab has joined
  449. [19 déc. 12 21:31:26] * selpa`i * The students can spread on your mental canvas, but the circle (which will by now by some sort of weird shape) won't rip
  450. [19 déc. 12 21:31:57] * selpa`i * Still this is important, because these three studends (or however many you are picturing for this example) are a unit
  451. [19 déc. 12 21:32:03] * selpa`i * students*
  452. [19 déc. 12 21:33:10] * selpa`i * That is, They are not three seperate individuals
  453. [19 déc. 12 21:33:51] * selpa`i * But there invidualness still exists, because they have access to the outer-most shell
  454. [19 déc. 12 21:33:52] * latro`a * "have access"?
  455. [19 déc. 12 21:33:53] * selpa`i * The outer-most shell of a sumti is where the individuals reside
  456. [19 déc. 12 21:33:56] < djeimsyxuis has disconnected (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi)
  457. [19 déc. 12 21:34:21] * selpa`i * I hope this will become clear soon
  458. [19 déc. 12 21:34:22] * latro`a * seems to me that they "can be accessed"
  459. [19 déc. 12 21:34:25] * latro`a * from outside
  460. [19 déc. 12 21:34:25] * selpa`i * A sumti can have more than one circle around it
  461. [19 déc. 12 21:34:32] * selpa`i * Yes
  462. [19 déc. 12 21:34:40] * latro`a * that seems like a clearer metaphor
  463. [19 déc. 12 21:34:40] * selpa`i * Okay.
  464. [19 déc. 12 21:34:40] * selpa`i * Sure.
  465. [19 déc. 12 21:34:47] * latro`a * continue, sorry, will try not to interrupt too much
  466. [19 déc. 12 21:34:49] * selpa`i * No problem
  467. [19 déc. 12 21:35:14] * selpa`i * The most useful example for multiple circles is probably a use of gunma
  468. [19 déc. 12 21:35:15] * selpa`i * lo gunma be lo tadni
  469. [19 déc. 12 21:35:40] * selpa`i * First there are the same students we had earlier
  470. [19 déc. 12 21:36:00] * selpa`i * (tell me if "we" is bad)
  471. [19 déc. 12 21:36:15] * latro`a * that's fine
  472. [19 déc. 12 21:36:16] * selpa`i * and around that, we draw yet another circle
  473. [19 déc. 12 21:36:42] * latro`a * is a gunma definite? i.e. can you unambiguously determine whether an individual is in it?
  474. [19 déc. 12 21:36:44] * selpa`i * Now under the outer-most shell, we have a single thing
  475. [19 déc. 12 21:36:49] * latro`a * as described it sounds like it is, but my understanding is that it isn't
  476. [19 déc. 12 21:37:10] * selpa`i * This should become clear later
  477. [19 déc. 12 21:37:14] * latro`a * alright
  478. [19 déc. 12 21:37:28] * selpa`i * I hope this current step makes sense the way I try to explain it.
  479. [19 déc. 12 21:37:44] < trillion has disconnected (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  480. [19 déc. 12 21:37:46] * selpa`i * If the outer shell is now opened, under it lies a circle
  481. [19 déc. 12 21:37:50] < Silverfish has disconnected (Quit: Leaving)
  482. [19 déc. 12 21:37:55] * selpa`i * and not the students
  483. [19 déc. 12 21:38:08] * latro`a * pretty much, the issue is what exactly the outer circle obstructs
  484. [19 déc. 12 21:38:09] * latro`a * or indeed what exactly these circles obstruct in general
  485. [19 déc. 12 21:38:38] * latro`a * you can get at the individuals from the inner shell, but presumably the outer shell can't be broken, or if it can the result doesn't let you get at the inner circle
  486. [19 déc. 12 21:38:47] * latro`a * oslt
  487. [19 déc. 12 21:38:57] * selpa`i * In general, the outer-most shell is right above the referents of the sumti. If you open that outer shell, you find under it the individual that lo broda is talking about
  488. [19 déc. 12 21:39:04] * selpa`i * (or the collection)
  489. [19 déc. 12 21:39:12] * latro`a * can you always do that?
  490. [19 déc. 12 21:39:21] * latro`a * or is the possibility that you can't on the "other branch"
  491. [19 déc. 12 21:39:30] * latro`a * that we haven't talked about yet
  492. [19 déc. 12 21:39:31] * selpa`i * Hmm
  493. [19 déc. 12 21:39:50] * selpa`i * I'll let you decide later, for now you always can.
  494. [19 déc. 12 21:39:53] * latro`a * alright
  495. [19 déc. 12 21:39:58] * selpa`i * Great.
  496. [19 déc. 12 21:40:05] * selpa`i * Now, keeping this circle metaphor, it is very easy to explain {me}. All that {me} does is pierce through exactly one shell (one circle). This will lead to the contained referants to "fall out" or "be accessible" (pick any metaphor that helps you).
  497. [19 déc. 12 21:40:27] * latro`a * erm
  498. [19 déc. 12 21:40:56] * selpa`i * From outside
  499. [19 déc. 12 21:41:17] * selpa`i * Comments?
  500. [19 déc. 12 21:41:38] * latro`a * sorry, got a phone call
  501. [19 déc. 12 21:42:31] * selpa`i * Oh
  502. [19 déc. 12 21:42:39] > zugz has joined
  503. [19 déc. 12 21:42:39] * latro`a * does this mean {lo me loi broda} == {lo broda}
  504. [19 déc. 12 21:42:39] * latro`a * ?
  505. [19 déc. 12 21:42:40] * latro`a * (ignoring re-binding blah blah)
  506. [19 déc. 12 21:42:40] * selpa`i * Now you introduced loi. But we can easily answer this
  507. [19 déc. 12 21:42:42] * selpa`i * loi broda = lo gunma be lo broda
  508. [19 déc. 12 21:42:45] * selpa`i * Which I explained above
  509. [19 déc. 12 21:43:18] * latro`a * sure
  510. [19 déc. 12 21:43:18] * selpa`i * The outer shell contains a gunma
  511. [19 déc. 12 21:43:18] * selpa`i * {me} grabs that gunma
  512. [19 déc. 12 21:43:23] * latro`a * then you remove a shell and you have a shell around the individuals
  513. [19 déc. 12 21:43:33] * latro`a * which is {lo broda} yes?
  514. [19 déc. 12 21:43:40] * selpa`i * No!
  515. [19 déc. 12 21:43:41] * latro`a * hm, OK
  516. [19 déc. 12 21:43:41] * selpa`i * well what is broda her?
  517. [19 déc. 12 21:43:42] * selpa`i * here*
  518. [19 déc. 12 21:43:46] * latro`a * shouldn't matter
  519. [19 déc. 12 21:43:58] * latro`a * but deal with the tadni for simplicity
  520. [19 déc. 12 21:44:22] * selpa`i * I think there is a misunderstanding because I think you would agree with me here
  521. [19 déc. 12 21:44:22] < Suprano has disconnected (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  522. [19 déc. 12 21:44:22] * selpa`i * Ok
  523. [19 déc. 12 21:44:22] * latro`a * I agree with you about the inner shell
  524. [19 déc. 12 21:44:22] * latro`a * it's the outer shell that is throwing me off
  525. [19 déc. 12 21:44:23] * latro`a * when you remove it, you get....what
  526. [19 déc. 12 21:44:23] > Suprano has joined
  527. [19 déc. 12 21:45:22] * selpa`i * loi tadni == (lo gunma be (lo tadni)), without removing any shells, we find a individual collection of gunma's (or of a single gunma)
  528. [19 déc. 12 21:45:45] * selpa`i * removing one shell reveils the gunma
  529. [19 déc. 12 21:45:46] * xalbo * {lo me loi broda} = {lo me lo gunma be lo broda}; the {me} removes the outermost circle, but the {lo} immediately to its left creates a new one. So it's the same as {lo gunma be lo broda} = {loi broda}
  530. [19 déc. 12 21:45:54] * latro`a * hm
  531. [19 déc. 12 21:46:02] * selpa`i * We cannot access the actual tadni
  532. [19 déc. 12 21:46:14] * zahlman * I agree with xalbo's interpretation.
  533. [19 déc. 12 21:46:23] * latro`a * OK, I think I see
  534. [19 déc. 12 21:46:28] * latro`a * supposing you have a mass with only one individual collection inside
  535. [19 déc. 12 21:46:39] * latro`a * you put {lo me} in front
  536. [19 déc. 12 21:46:45] * latro`a * this removes the mass-shell
  537. [19 déc. 12 21:46:55] * latro`a * and then immediately adds a new shell around the only possible referent inside the mass-shell, namely the inner individual collection
  538. [19 déc. 12 21:46:57] * latro`a * and hence does nothing
  539. [19 déc. 12 21:47:14] * selpa`i * Good.
  540. [19 déc. 12 21:47:19] * latro`a * supposing you have an individual collection on the other hand, you put {lo me} in front, you remove the outer shell and now have access to the individuals and can regroup them arbitrarily
  541. [19 déc. 12 21:47:27] * latro`a * potentially retrieving a subcollection
  542. [19 déc. 12 21:48:04] * selpa`i * There is still a step we can look at with just {me} (without a lo before it)
  543. [19 déc. 12 21:48:13] * selpa`i * Because there were questions about it
  544. [19 déc. 12 21:48:33] * selpa`i * But so far everything is clear?
  545. [19 déc. 12 21:48:38] * latro`a * on this branch I think I get it
  546. [19 déc. 12 21:48:40] * selpa`i * Cool
  547. [19 déc. 12 21:48:41] * latro`a * though
  548. [19 déc. 12 21:48:42] * latro`a * there is one catch
  549. [19 déc. 12 21:48:58] * latro`a * what type are the plural KOhA?
  550. [19 déc. 12 21:49:25] * latro`a * if they are masses with one individual collection inside as above then {re mi'o} is nonsensical
  551. [19 déc. 12 21:49:33] * selpa`i * You're thinking of mi'o ma'a mi'a do'o yes?
  552. [19 déc. 12 21:49:33] * latro`a * if they are of lo-type then we're fine
  553. [19 déc. 12 21:49:33] * latro`a * yes
  554. [19 déc. 12 21:49:56] * selpa`i * To answer this, I must first explain how I understand jo'u
  555. [19 déc. 12 21:50:23] * selpa`i * jo'u:lo::joi:loi::e:ro
  556. [19 déc. 12 21:50:30] * selpa`i * Is this readable?
  557. [19 déc. 12 21:50:42] * latro`a * yeah
  558. [19 déc. 12 21:50:46] * selpa`i * Okay.
  559. [19 déc. 12 21:50:48] * selpa`i * So jo'u creates a lo-type
  560. [19 déc. 12 21:50:52] * selpa`i * While joi creates a gunma
  561. [19 déc. 12 21:50:54] * selpa`i * or loi
  562. [19 déc. 12 21:51:18] * selpa`i * Now using this jo'u, I define mi'o as mi jo'u do, and so on
  563. [19 déc. 12 21:51:47] * selpa`i * That is, it gives us a sumti that does not commit to anything.
  564. [19 déc. 12 21:51:54] * latro`a * mi/do plurals are also jo'u-built?
  565. [19 déc. 12 21:52:06] * selpa`i * We can force different readings by using ro or lu'o
  566. [19 déc. 12 21:52:19] * selpa`i * mi = lo cusku, do = lo tersku
  567. [19 déc. 12 21:52:38] * latro`a * fair enough
  568. [19 déc. 12 21:52:49] * selpa`i * ro forces a distributive reading of ma'a et al, lu'o the non-distributive reading
  569. [19 déc. 12 21:53:01] * selpa`i * While we get the neutral version if we don't do anything special
  570. [19 déc. 12 21:53:27] * selpa`i * With this, {mi me mi'o} makes sense-
  571. [19 déc. 12 21:53:34] * latro`a * sure
  572. [19 déc. 12 21:54:28] * latro`a * (hereafter "sure" means "this is functional" while "sure, cool" means "this is functional and also how I think things should work")
  573. [19 déc. 12 21:54:59] * selpa`i * Noted.
  574. [19 déc. 12 21:55:25] * latro`a * (a few of the agreements above were "sure, cool" type)
  575. [19 déc. 12 21:55:25] * selpa`i * Cool
  576. [19 déc. 12 21:56:08] * selpa`i * :P
  577. [19 déc. 12 21:56:08] * selpa`i * This should remove any issues with xorlo's formal definitions
  578. [19 déc. 12 21:56:09] * selpa`i * That involve {me}
  579. [19 déc. 12 21:56:21] * latro`a * I don't think this is how they're stated, but sure, that works
  580. [19 déc. 12 21:56:39] * selpa`i * The page is not explicit enough
  581. [19 déc. 12 21:56:47] * latro`a * indeed
  582. [19 déc. 12 21:57:35] < xunatai has disconnected (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  583. [19 déc. 12 21:57:42] * selpa`i * Does anyone have any questions so far?
  584. [19 déc. 12 21:57:50] * xalbo * For clarification, does {lo tadni [ku] jo'u lo plise} create a lo-type circle with the individuals directly inside it, or still within their own circles labeled {lo tadni} and {lo plise}?
  585. [19 déc. 12 21:58:18] > djeimsyxuis has joined
  586. [19 déc. 12 21:58:22] > carado has joined
  587. [19 déc. 12 21:59:44] * selpa`i * Interesting question.
  588. [19 déc. 12 22:00:10] * selpa`i * Maybe I can answer it using a formula
  589. [19 déc. 12 22:00:30] * selpa`i * lo tadni .e lo plise cu me lo tadni jo'u lo plise
  590. [19 déc. 12 22:01:12] * latro`a * that kinda answers his question, I think the point is whether you can test whether each individual that you've extracted is in {lo tadni} or {lo plise}
  591. [19 déc. 12 22:01:14] * tsani * It seems to me, from that formula, that it grows the circles to encompass both.
  592. [19 déc. 12 22:01:32] * latro`a * with that example it's trivial
  593. [19 déc. 12 22:01:37] * latro`a * but with {lo nanmu jo'u lo nanmu}?
  594. [19 déc. 12 22:01:40] > djeimsyxuis_ has joined
  595. [19 déc. 12 22:03:07] * selpa`i * Same thing.
  596. [19 déc. 12 22:03:07] * selpa`i * But weird.
  597. [19 déc. 12 22:03:08] * selpa`i * Especially after looking at branch 2
  598. [19 déc. 12 22:03:16] * latro`a * that didn't really answer the question
  599. [19 déc. 12 22:03:17] * selpa`i * Uhm
  600. [19 déc. 12 22:03:33] * latro`a * you also haven't really answered what exactly {cu me} means, since you haven't gotten to how {lo} acts yet
  601. [19 déc. 12 22:03:41] * latro`a * but we'll get to that
  602. [19 déc. 12 22:03:44] * xalbo * So that formula does seem to me to read that {lo tadni jo'u lo plise} has another circle around the circles we've been calling {lo tadni} and {lo plise}. I almost didn't use the word "labeled" there, but I couldn't think of a better alternative
  603. [19 déc. 12 22:03:44] * selpa`i * Wait
  604. [19 déc. 12 22:03:50] * selpa`i * I thought I had talked about {me}
  605. [19 déc. 12 22:04:09] * latro`a * you've clarified what {me} means, but not how referents come out of {lo broda} to define {lo broda cu me lo broda jo'u lo brode}
  606. [19 déc. 12 22:04:28] < djeimsyxuis has disconnected (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  607. [19 déc. 12 22:04:29] ^ djeimsyxuis_ is now known as djeimsyxuis
  608. [19 déc. 12 22:04:39] * latro`a * at any rate, I can read selpa'i's formula either way
  609. [19 déc. 12 22:04:55] * latro`a * but it ultimately depends on how the referents come out of {lo tadni} and {lo plise}
  610. [19 déc. 12 22:05:02] * selpa`i * Ah, I thought I had. Again, the outer-most shell is immediately above the referents
  611. [19 déc. 12 22:05:07] * selpa`i * So lo broda has brodas in it
  612. [19 déc. 12 22:05:07] < Suprano has disconnected (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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  614. [19 déc. 12 22:05:34] * latro`a * sure, but it's possible that the actual nature of the interaction isn't defined, and that instead you could have {lo broda cu me lo broda joi lo brode}
  615. [19 déc. 12 22:05:48] * latro`a * if you see what I mean
  616. [19 déc. 12 22:06:09] * latro`a * the right me removes a shell, and one of the referents is the lo-type-sumti {lo broda}
  617. [19 déc. 12 22:06:12] * selpa`i * Remember, the reason there even *is* a shell around lo tadni (and I told you to make it non-bold and flexible) is that there is a unit
  618. [19 déc. 12 22:06:18] * selpa`i * This type of {lo}-circle-line does not remove access to what's below
  619. [19 déc. 12 22:06:59] * latro`a * that's fine, but it doesn't address the question; in short, in {lo broda jo'u lo brode}, is there any internal structure, or merely everything thrown together into one collection
  620. [19 déc. 12 22:07:12] * latro`a * ^is the question
  621. [19 déc. 12 22:07:32] * selpa`i * I think there is a structure
  622. [19 déc. 12 22:07:33] * selpa`i * The one xalbo outlines
  623. [19 déc. 12 22:07:37] * latro`a * then we have a question of how lo acts when it is a me1
  624. [19 déc. 12 22:07:47] * selpa`i * Otherwise, we'd be removing circles without any warning
  625. [19 déc. 12 22:07:53] * selpa`i * Wouldn't we?
  626. [19 déc. 12 22:08:05] * latro`a * that is, then it's possible that {lo broda cu me lo broda jo'u lo brode} is actually saying "the individual collection {lo broda} is a referent of ..."
  627. [19 déc. 12 22:08:13] * latro`a * since there's two layers of circles
  628. [19 déc. 12 22:08:39] * latro`a * you remove the circle that joins together {lo broda} and {lo brode} and you get access to two referents, one of which is {lo broda} as a unit
  629. [19 déc. 12 22:08:46] * selpa`i * The referents of an invidual collection are the indivuals of the collection
  630. [19 déc. 12 22:08:52] * latro`a * so it works, but in the wrong way
  631. [19 déc. 12 22:09:04] * latro`a * I didn't say the referents of it, that is I didn't say {lo me lo broda cu me ...}
  632. [19 déc. 12 22:09:05] * xalbo * So then if {mi'o} is {mi jo'u do} with a plural {do} (addressing a lecture hall of students, for instance), {ta me mi'o} pointing at a single student isn't true; {ta me do} is, but we're at a higher level.
  633. [19 déc. 12 22:09:05] * latro`a * I said {lo broda cu me ...}
  634. [19 déc. 12 22:09:24] * Ilmen * Hiya!
  635. [19 déc. 12 22:09:29] * selpa`i * You can apply this everywhere, unless I misunderstand you
  636. [19 déc. 12 22:09:31] * Ilmen * ack I am. ?
  637. [19 déc. 12 22:09:35] * Ilmen * *Back
  638. [19 déc. 12 22:09:40] * latro`a * I think you really need to not have the internal structure, or else things get weird
  639. [19 déc. 12 22:10:59] * xalbo * ping is me
  640. [19 déc. 12 22:11:00] * selpa`i * No, xalbo. The outer shell is merely for making the referents behave in a unit (which we have yet to look at)
  641. [19 déc. 12 22:11:00] * selpa`i * It does not remove access to them
  642. [19 déc. 12 22:11:00] * selpa`i * (with lo)
  643. [19 déc. 12 22:11:02] * selpa`i * Or with jo'u sumti
  644. [19 déc. 12 22:11:03] * latro`a * lemme try and find some kind of collaborative drawing thing
  645. [19 déc. 12 22:11:09] * latro`a * because I think I see what xalbo means, and I think it breaks things
  646. [19 déc. 12 22:11:22] * xalbo * So does {me} strip through all layers to the ultimate individuals, then?
  647. [19 déc. 12 22:11:37] * latro`a * it can't do that if there are any mass-shells
  648. [19 déc. 12 22:11:38] * latro`a * as we noted earlier
  649. [19 déc. 12 22:11:38] * selpa`i * There is no ultimate individual, we've seen that masses can be invididuals
  650. [19 déc. 12 22:11:53] * selpa`i * i keep typoing that
  651. [19 déc. 12 22:12:01] * xalbo * I may be reading too much into the structure and circles, and too little into your warning that they're soft and permeable
  652. [19 déc. 12 22:12:21] * latro`a * does it go down to the lowest mass-shell, or individuals if there is none?
  653. [19 déc. 12 22:12:29] * selpa`i * It should always go trough exactly one shell.
  654. [19 déc. 12 22:12:29] < djeimsyxuis has disconnected (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi)
  655. [19 déc. 12 22:12:42] * latro`a * but then we get xalbo's issue if there are internal shells
  656. [19 déc. 12 22:12:45] * selpa`i * But there are none with a plural {do}
  657. [19 déc. 12 22:13:11] * latro`a * {do} certainly makes a lo-type shell if it's plural
  658. [19 déc. 12 22:13:17] * selpa`i * Yes.
  659. [19 déc. 12 22:13:18] * latro`a * even if it doesn't, just consider a lo broda jo'u lo brode
  660. [19 déc. 12 22:13:21] * xalbo * So do = (selsku), a circle around those spoken to. {ta me do} is true.
  661. [19 déc. 12 22:13:21] * latro`a * OK yeah
  662. [19 déc. 12 22:13:32] * latro`a * *tersku
  663. [19 déc. 12 22:13:40] * xalbo * Yeah, sorry
  664. [19 déc. 12 22:14:49] * xalbo * But {mi'o} = mi jo'u do = ( (cusku) (tersku)) a circle containing within it the circles we got from {mi} and {do}. {ta} is not one of those.
  665. [19 déc. 12 22:14:50] * selpa`i * Again, the reason for the original outer lo shell has yet to be explained
  666. [19 déc. 12 22:15:26] * latro`a * the motivation and what it actually does should be separate pe'i
  667. [19 déc. 12 22:15:30] * selpa`i * Maybe I phrased it poorly :)
  668. [19 déc. 12 22:15:43] * latro`a * I don't think you're going to be very clear leaving this dangling until justified :/
  669. [19 déc. 12 22:15:59] * selpa`i * I meant I still need to show how this outer shell behaves
  670. [19 déc. 12 22:17:02] * xalbo * If you think that will help understanding, I could hold off until then.
  671. [19 déc. 12 22:17:03] * selpa`i * No, it's not very related.
  672. [19 déc. 12 22:17:03] * latro`a * I think we're still explaining how {me} works
  673. [19 déc. 12 22:17:03] * xalbo * (and the collaborative white board does seem like it might be handy)
  674. [19 déc. 12 22:17:12] * selpa`i * I've never been able to find one
  675. [19 déc. 12 22:17:24] * latro`a * http://flockdraw.com/gallery/view/1620026
  676. [19 déc. 12 22:17:38] * selpa`i * Only google docs paint, and it's terrible, tsani probably remembers :P
  677. [19 déc. 12 22:17:41] * latro`a * this is also pretty terrible
  678. [19 déc. 12 22:17:43] * tsani * dear god, indeed it was awful
  679. [19 déc. 12 22:17:59] * selpa`i * But what came out wasn't soo bad
  680. [19 déc. 12 22:18:00] * tsani * Right.
  681. [19 déc. 12 22:18:15] * tsani * If we all had handwriting inputs it'd be easier, of course.
  682. [19 déc. 12 22:18:34] * selpa`i * Okay I'm looking at your drawing
  683. [19 déc. 12 22:19:01] * latro`a * sorry the shapes keep changing
  684. [19 déc. 12 22:20:03] * xalbo * "61,457 people like this. Sign Up to see what your friends like." I thought the drawing wasn't bad, but that's a bit extreme!
  685. [19 déc. 12 22:20:17] * selpa`i * .u'i sai
  686. [19 déc. 12 22:21:12] * latro`a * lemme make another version that I think makes more sense
  687. [19 déc. 12 22:21:18] * selpa`i * Okay.
  688. [19 déc. 12 22:21:47] * selpa`i * Maybe use actual things
  689. [19 déc. 12 22:21:47] * selpa`i * like people and apples
  690. [19 déc. 12 22:22:12] * latro`a * I think that actually obscures the issue more than helps
  691. [19 déc. 12 22:22:13] * latro`a * because this is something that should always always always work the same
  692. [19 déc. 12 22:22:17] * latro`a * whereas actual predication (the next topic) maybe not so much
  693. [19 déc. 12 22:23:43] * selpa`i * Sure, it should. But if you have individuals that look like circles, and then circles that *are* circles, it can get confusing
  694. [19 déc. 12 22:23:44] * selpa`i * Maybe it's just me
  695. [19 déc. 12 22:23:55] * latro`a * I didn't have any individuals except ta
  696. [19 déc. 12 22:24:03] * xalbo * So with that diagram, we could label the big circle on the left (the {lo broda jo'u lo brode} one), {mi'o}, and the dot {ta} (a particular person). A = {do}. {ta me do}, and {do me mi'o}, but {ta na me mi'o}
  697. [19 déc. 12 22:24:03] * latro`a * which was a filled point
  698. [19 déc. 12 22:24:10] * selpa`i * Then I didn't understand the picture
  699. [19 déc. 12 22:25:15] * selpa`i * I think the individuals where lo broda and lo brode
  700. [19 déc. 12 22:25:23] * xalbo * The circles labeled A and B are lo-type circles, but for the present we don't care about what individuals are within them, except for {ta}.
  701. [19 déc. 12 22:25:24] * latro`a * no
  702. [19 déc. 12 22:25:24] * latro`a * not at all
  703. [19 déc. 12 22:25:25] * latro`a * yeah
  704. [19 déc. 12 22:25:25] * latro`a * that
  705. [19 déc. 12 22:25:28] * selpa`i * thought*
  706. [19 déc. 12 22:25:29] * selpa`i * sorry
  707. [19 déc. 12 22:26:27] > M4renz has joined
  708. [19 déc. 12 22:27:43] * latro`a * http://flockdraw.com/gallery/view/1620030
  709. [19 déc. 12 22:28:26] * latro`a * the yellow and sky blue ones are to clarify that these are definitely plural, and nothing else
  710. [19 déc. 12 22:28:47] * latro`a * in short now we have that {ko'a me lo broda jo'u lo brode}
  711. [19 déc. 12 22:28:53] * latro`a * whereas in the previous diagram we didn't
  712. [19 déc. 12 22:29:28] * latro`a * this is entirely dependent on whether jo'u with things that are already lo-type preserves the internal structure of the lo-type things
  713. [19 déc. 12 22:29:33] * selpa`i * Right.
  714. [19 déc. 12 22:29:53] * latro`a * my previous interpretation was that it didn't, and that the plural KOhV were actually masses anyways
  715. [19 déc. 12 22:30:03] * latro`a * (this not being of xorlo but of latro'a-lo)
  716. [19 déc. 12 22:30:04] < Suprano has disconnected (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  717. [19 déc. 12 22:30:11] * latro`a * erm
  718. [19 déc. 12 22:30:13] * latro`a * sorry
  719. [19 déc. 12 22:30:24] * latro`a * it *did*, but plural KOhV in particular were masses already
  720. [19 déc. 12 22:30:36] * latro`a * .....gah
  721. [19 déc. 12 22:30:53] * latro`a * the first thing was correct
  722. [19 déc. 12 22:30:54] * latro`a * keeping track of negations ftl
  723. [19 déc. 12 22:30:54] * latro`a * anyway
  724. [19 déc. 12 22:30:55] * latro`a * do you understand the question now?
  725. [19 déc. 12 22:31:12] * tsani * That last drawing there is how I have been understanding it.
  726. [19 déc. 12 22:31:26] * tsani * (yay)
  727. [19 déc. 12 22:31:31] * selpa`i * :)
  728. [19 déc. 12 22:31:36] * selpa`i * Yes, I think so
  729. [19 déc. 12 22:31:47] * selpa`i * wrt the question
  730. [19 déc. 12 22:31:54] * tsani * This talk about outer shells and lo-circles had been throwing me off a bit.
  731. [19 déc. 12 22:32:11] * tsani * But these drawings helped; a video will be a good reference for the future, ja'o.
  732. [19 déc. 12 22:32:58] * xalbo * latro`a: Can you please state your current opinion again with as few negations as you can? I think I got lost.
  733. [19 déc. 12 22:33:18] * selpa`i * If {mi jo'u ko'a cu broda}=>{lo broda} and say {do jo'u ko'e}=>{lo brode}, the question is whether or not ko'a me lo broda jo'u lo brode
  734. [19 déc. 12 22:34:56] * latro`a * where'd do come from
  735. [19 déc. 12 22:34:58] * latro`a * oh nvm
  736. [19 déc. 12 22:35:00] * latro`a * I see
  737. [19 déc. 12 22:35:02] * selpa`i * Just random
  738. [19 déc. 12 22:35:02] * xalbo * Yes, I think that's the question I asked.
  739. [19 déc. 12 22:35:35] * latro`a * xalbo: my opinion on jo'u was basically the same as this picture, except my opinion on lo for the *most* part was basically that the circles never existed
  740. [19 déc. 12 22:35:59] * latro`a * (I know that they definitely existed under xorlo; this is most definitely latro'a-lo)
  741. [19 déc. 12 22:36:34] * latro`a * but because the circles didn't exist, avoiding lu'o all the time forced the plural KOhV to be masses, which creates an "impenetrable shell" to me that is penetrable by lu'a
  742. [19 déc. 12 22:36:39] * latro`a * or equivalently {lo se gunma be}
  743. [19 déc. 12 22:36:47] * latro`a * *to {me}
  744. [19 déc. 12 22:36:58] * latro`a * anyway
  745. [19 déc. 12 22:37:35] * latro`a * onto how the hell jo'u works
  746. [19 déc. 12 22:38:31] * tsani * It looks like jo'u simply merges two lo-circles into a new lo-circle.
  747. [19 déc. 12 22:38:48] * tsani * rather than placing a new circle around everything.
  748. [19 déc. 12 22:38:54] * latro`a * that's the second drawing
  749. [19 déc. 12 22:39:00] * tsani * Right.
  750. [19 déc. 12 22:39:03] * latro`a * but it might be the first one
  751. [19 déc. 12 22:39:09] * latro`a * are there any actual benefits to the first one?
  752. [19 déc. 12 22:39:32] * latro`a * other than perhaps keeping {lo broda} atomic (which means {lo broda jo'u lo brode} always actually makes sense)
  753. [19 déc. 12 22:39:34] * selpa`i * I don't know
  754. [19 déc. 12 22:39:47] * selpa`i * Yes
  755. [19 déc. 12 22:39:51] * selpa`i * But at the same time ko'a is now not among them
  756. [19 déc. 12 22:39:55] * selpa`i * which is not that weird
  757. [19 déc. 12 22:40:00] * latro`a * indeed
  758. [19 déc. 12 22:40:00] * latro`a * eh
  759. [19 déc. 12 22:40:13] * latro`a * it's pretty weird
  760. [19 déc. 12 22:40:13] * selpa`i * But not that useful either
  761. [19 déc. 12 22:40:15] * latro`a * it makes {mi me mi'o} only sometimes true
  762. [19 déc. 12 22:40:27] * latro`a * eh, more frequently {do me mi'o} is untrue
  763. [19 déc. 12 22:40:35] * xalbo * In the second interpretation, I'm not sure what {ko'a me lo broda} would mean.
  764. [19 déc. 12 22:40:41] * selpa`i * Yes it's weird, but not *that* weird if you consider how the lo-circle behaves
  765. [19 déc. 12 22:40:44] * selpa`i * But do me mi'o must always be true
  766. [19 déc. 12 22:40:47] * latro`a * it's pretty weird, even if it can be explained
  767. [19 déc. 12 22:41:34] * latro`a * what do you mean xalbo? there's only one circle in any given stage
  768. [19 déc. 12 22:41:34] * latro`a * if you insist on {do me mi'o} always being true then the second interpretation is automatic
  769. [19 déc. 12 22:41:35] * latro`a * you CANNOT do anything differently in different situations with this
  770. [19 déc. 12 22:41:45] * xalbo * So we get a single circle encompassing {ko'a} and whatever was in the circle of {lo broda}?
  771. [19 déc. 12 22:42:03] * latro`a * ?
  772. [19 déc. 12 22:42:05] > lukys has joined
  773. [19 déc. 12 22:42:26] * latro`a * in what situation
  774. [19 déc. 12 22:42:29] * selpa`i * The red circle?
  775. [19 déc. 12 22:42:29] * latro`a * also, what happens when you jo'u with something that doesn't carry around a circle?
  776. [19 déc. 12 22:42:35] * latro`a * ko'a jo'u lo broda
  777. [19 déc. 12 22:42:42] * latro`a * erm
  778. [19 déc. 12 22:42:48] * latro`a * ko'a jo'u lo brode
  779. [19 déc. 12 22:42:49] * latro`a * sticking with the notation of the picture
  780. [19 déc. 12 22:43:06] * xalbo * Oh shit. *that* is what I meant to say, and typed {me} instead of {jo'u}. No wonder I confused everyone.
  781. [19 déc. 12 22:43:14] * zahlman * ... it seems to me that a speaker has to be pretty gluteal for any of this to matter :/
  782. [19 déc. 12 22:43:25] * latro`a * it matters more on the other side than here
  783. [19 déc. 12 22:43:46] * latro`a * in particular it heavily impacts what the hell PA lo broda means
  784. [19 déc. 12 22:43:55] * zort- * other side?
  785. [19 déc. 12 22:44:02] * zort- * oh
  786. [19 déc. 12 22:44:27] * xalbo * So yes, I can picture what {ko'a jo'u lo broda} would look like in the first drawing, but not necessarily in the second.
  787. [19 déc. 12 22:45:31] > TND has joined
  788. [19 déc. 12 22:47:28] > Suprano has joined
  789. [19 déc. 12 22:48:58] * Ilmen * «keeping track of negations ftl» --> FTL = what?
  790. [19 déc. 12 22:49:09] * Ilmen is reading the logs
  791. [19 déc. 12 22:49:29] * selpa`i * for the loss
  792. [19 déc. 12 22:49:36] * xalbo * For the loss (opposite of the more common FTW = For the win)
  793. [19 déc. 12 22:49:38] * Ilmen * ki'e
  794. [19 déc. 12 22:49:55] * Ilmen * Never saw FTW either :p
  795. [19 déc. 12 22:50:03] * Ilmen * Thank you!
  796. [19 déc. 12 22:50:43] * xalbo * Not sure exactly how to explain that one.
  797. [19 déc. 12 22:50:58] * Ilmen * «wrt the question» ---> what is WRT?
  798. [19 déc. 12 22:51:13] * zort- * ua lei me la no na lojbo cu jbojbo sisku
  799. [19 déc. 12 22:51:14] < M4renz has disconnected (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  800. [19 déc. 12 22:51:14] * zort- * (there's something poetic to me about "jbojbo seekers")
  801. [19 déc. 12 22:51:14] * selpa`i * with regard to
  802. [19 déc. 12 22:51:29] * zahlman * xalbo, how to explain 'for the win'?
  803. [19 déc. 12 22:51:34] * zahlman * it derives from the 80s game show 'hollywood squares'
  804. [19 déc. 12 22:52:13] * selpa`i * I would say {jo'u} joins the referents of each sumti into a new sumti, which makes sense based on how the lo-shell is permeable.
  805. [19 déc. 12 22:52:14] * latro`a * so second drawing
  806. [19 déc. 12 22:52:19] * selpa`i * I can see drawbacks to either interpretation, but this is definelty more useful
  807. [19 déc. 12 22:52:30] * selpa`i * Yes.
  808. [19 déc. 12 22:53:22] * latro`a * one more thing on this side
  809. [19 déc. 12 22:53:23] * latro`a * supposing there's exactly one broda
  810. [19 déc. 12 22:53:23] * latro`a * (weird, but roll with it)
  811. [19 déc. 12 22:53:23] * latro`a * suppose that broda is ko'a
  812. [19 déc. 12 22:53:32] * latro`a * are {lo broda} and {ko'a} *EXACTLY* interchangeable?
  813. [19 déc. 12 22:53:42] * latro`a * more precisely, {xu ko'a du lo broda} and {xu ko'a mintu lo broda}
  814. [19 déc. 12 22:54:27] * selpa`i * If they weren't then interpretation 1 wouldn't ruin mi me mi'o since then you couldn't just replace mi with lo cusku.
  815. [19 déc. 12 22:54:59] * selpa`i * But they should mintu
  816. [19 déc. 12 22:55:11] * latro`a * I'm basically trying to get at the significance of the circle
  817. [19 déc. 12 22:55:20] * latro`a * sure, if there's several of them it makes a unit, but if there's just one does it actually do anything?
  818. [19 déc. 12 22:55:28] * selpa`i * Not really.
  819. [19 déc. 12 22:55:33] * xalbo * "WRT" = "with regards to" or "with respect to", roughly "concerning" or "about" or "in re:"
  820. [19 déc. 12 22:56:48] * selpa`i * But I think the significance becomes apparent in {lo tadni cu sruri lo dinju}
  821. [19 déc. 12 22:58:02] * latro`a * I meant if it has any significance beyond making plural things into a unit
  822. [19 déc. 12 22:58:11] * latro`a * we'll get to the significance of the last bit...well, now, I guess
  823. [19 déc. 12 23:00:31] * Ilmen * «oh nvm» --> NVM?
  824. [19 déc. 12 23:00:43] * tsani * "nevermind"
  825. [19 déc. 12 23:00:47] * Ilmen * :p
  826. [19 déc. 12 23:00:51] * Ilmen * ki'e
  827. [19 déc. 12 23:01:04] * selpa`i * ko'a cu me lo broda jo'u lo brode == ko'a cu me mi jo'u ko'a jo'u lo brode == ko'a cu me mi jo'u ko'a jo'u do jo'u ko'e
  828. [19 déc. 12 23:01:15] * selpa`i * So this way it works too, doesn't it?
  829. [19 déc. 12 23:01:48] * latro`a * this is a problem in the first interpretation, since then the associativity of jo'u matters
  830. [19 déc. 12 23:02:10] * selpa`i * Right.
  831. [19 déc. 12 23:02:15] * selpa`i * So it seems everyone likes the 2nd interpretation
  832. [19 déc. 12 23:02:48] * latro`a * *nod*
  833. [19 déc. 12 23:03:01] * selpa`i * What's next?
  834. [19 déc. 12 23:03:10] * Ilmen finally managed to read the whole disussion thus far
  835. [19 déc. 12 23:03:21] * latro`a * the other branch :)
  836. [19 déc. 12 23:03:26] * selpa`i * Oh goodness
  837. [19 déc. 12 23:03:28] * latro`a * we have these units, what do they do
  838. [19 déc. 12 23:03:58] * selpa`i * Well the other branch is quite another thing
  839. [19 déc. 12 23:04:06] * selpa`i * And is just about what lo broda is
  840. [19 déc. 12 23:04:22] * latro`a * well, no, we know what it is
  841. [19 déc. 12 23:04:30] * selpa`i * No!
  842. [19 déc. 12 23:04:30] * selpa`i * Not at all
  843. [19 déc. 12 23:04:30] * latro`a * oh?
  844. [19 déc. 12 23:04:31] * selpa`i * :)
  845. [19 déc. 12 23:04:31] * latro`a * depends what "is" means I guess
  846. [19 déc. 12 23:04:46] * latro`a * afaict we know what it is but nothing else about it
  847. [19 déc. 12 23:05:00] * latro`a * just that it is a little unit with brodas in it, where the boundary is flexible
  848. [19 déc. 12 23:05:10] * latro`a * seems enough to identify what it is rather than what it does
  849. [19 déc. 12 23:05:20] * selpa`i * Hmm
  850. [19 déc. 12 23:05:33] * latro`a * (@ ilmen: afaict = as far as I can tell)
  851. [19 déc. 12 23:05:38] * selpa`i * But nothing that has been said so far explains constants or why ro mi'o te vecnu lo cukta
  852. [19 déc. 12 23:05:43] * latro`a * (while I'm at it: afaik = as far as I know)
  853. [19 déc. 12 23:05:56] * latro`a * indeed
  854. [19 déc. 12 23:05:56] * Ilmen * latro`a: Yeah, you already taught me this one ;-)
  855. [19 déc. 12 23:06:17] * latro`a * but that's "does"
  856. [19 déc. 12 23:06:17] * latro`a * rather than "is"
  857. [19 déc. 12 23:06:17] * selpa`i * Ok.
  858. [19 déc. 12 23:06:24] * latro`a * except arguably constants
  859. [19 déc. 12 23:06:58] * selpa`i * Things went quite well so far, things might change now
  860. [19 déc. 12 23:06:59] * selpa`i * (though I think it's awesome)
  861. [19 déc. 12 23:06:59] * selpa`i * Quite whorfy, as I said
  862. [19 déc. 12 23:07:39] * Ilmen * Whorfy? :p
  863. [19 déc. 12 23:07:41] * latro`a * this much was pretty straightforward, actually; the only thing I'm a little skeptical about, based on previous experience, is the idea that you can always pull the referents out precisely
  864. [19 déc. 12 23:07:48] * latro`a * i.e. the predicate {me lo broda} is decidable
  865. [19 déc. 12 23:07:52] * latro`a * also, .ei cliva ba zi ku .u'u
  866. [19 déc. 12 23:08:05] * selpa`i * oh
  867. [19 déc. 12 23:08:05] * latro`a * .i lo pendo cu jikca cpedu
  868. [19 déc. 12 23:08:36] * selpa`i * If you can show some examples where {me lo broda} is doubtful in that regard, I'd like to see them
  869. [19 déc. 12 23:08:57] * selpa`i * Doesn't have to be now
  870. [19 déc. 12 23:09:00] * latro`a * the bear goo examples are the trivial ones
  871. [19 déc. 12 23:09:13] * latro`a * but the nontrivial ones are basically less blatant variations on that idea
  872. [19 déc. 12 23:09:28] * selpa`i * ba zi ma ta'o
  873. [19 déc. 12 23:09:40] * latro`a * .i ba'a do sipna ca lo nu mi di'a iric
  874. [19 déc. 12 23:09:40] * latro`a * si irci
  875. [19 déc. 12 23:09:48] * selpa`i * ju'o
  876. [19 déc. 12 23:09:56] * latro`a * .i cacra li su'o ci
  877. [19 déc. 12 23:10:05] * selpa`i * .i ku'i ba zi ma cliva
  878. [19 déc. 12 23:10:07] * latro`a * ua
  879. [19 déc. 12 23:10:10] * latro`a * lo mentu be li so'o
  880. [19 déc. 12 23:10:17] * latro`a * si su'e so'o
  881. [19 déc. 12 23:10:21] * selpa`i * je'e
  882. [19 déc. 12 23:10:25] * selpa`i * .i ja'a tordu
  883. [19 déc. 12 23:10:26] * latro`a * ie
  884. [19 déc. 12 23:10:57] * selpa`i * Then it would be weird to start with a new topic now
  885. [19 déc. 12 23:11:05] * latro`a * ie
  886. [19 déc. 12 23:11:13] * Ilmen * .ie
  887. [19 déc. 12 23:11:13] * latro`a * .u'u
  888. [19 déc. 12 23:11:30] * latro`a * though feel free to talk to tsani, we can go back over it later
  889. [19 déc. 12 23:11:30] * tsani * Indeed.
  890. [19 déc. 12 23:11:44] * Ilmen * Yeah
  891. [19 déc. 12 23:12:16] * Ilmen * I hope I could be there for the next part of this discussion
  892. [19 déc. 12 23:12:31] * Ilmen * Not today obviously
  893. [19 déc. 12 23:13:22] * Ilmen * selpa`i: Any idea of when you might carry on on this topic? I wouldn't like to miss this :p
  894. [19 déc. 12 23:13:47] * selpa`i * Not sure. I thought maybe now
  895. [19 déc. 12 23:13:59] > filen has joined
  896. [19 déc. 12 23:14:11] * selpa`i * If tsani wants me to continue, otherwise I can wait for you two
  897. [19 déc. 12 23:14:18] * Ilmen * It's 23:14 at my place :p
  898. [19 déc. 12 23:14:36] * selpa`i * Same here
  899. [19 déc. 12 23:14:37] * latro`a * you're not that far apart
  900. [19 déc. 12 23:14:37] * latro`a * few hundred km
  901. [19 déc. 12 23:14:48] * latro`a * actually
  902. ==========
  903. [15 janv. 13 23:00:02] * Ilmen * BTW the discussion about gadri and xorlo hasn't been carried on?
  904. [15 janv. 13 23:00:24] * hufman * http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/code_list.php
  905. [15 janv. 13 23:00:39] * Ilmen * the explanations of selpa'i
  906. [15 janv. 13 23:01:04] * latro`a * no
  907. [15 janv. 13 23:01:13] * Ilmen * je'e
  908. ==========
  909. [02 mars 13 22:17:51] * latro`a_ * .i mi ca merli jundi milxe .i xu do djica lo nu mi'o casnu la xorlo doi la selpa'i
  910. [02 mars 13 22:18:01] * fpcalep * .y
  911. [02 mars 13 22:18:13] * fpcalep * ii zo'o mi na birti
  912. [02 mars 13 22:18:23] * fpcalep * .i xagji pa mai
  913. [02 mars 13 22:18:24] * latro`a_ * .u'i
  914. [02 mars 13 22:18:49] * fpcalep * .i xu do banzu jundi kakne
  915. [02 mars 13 22:19:14] * latro`a_ * .i ba'a do tavla zmadu mi
  916. [02 mars 13 22:19:19] * latro`a_ * .i se ki'u bo ba'a banzu
  917. [02 mars 13 22:19:25] * fpcalep * ie jetnu
  918. [02 mars 13 22:20:07] * fpcalep * .e'a pei mi pu citka
  919. [02 mars 13 22:20:13] * latro`a_ * y
  920. [02 mars 13 22:20:15] * latro`a_ * ua
  921. [02 mars 13 22:20:18] * fpcalep * .u'i
  922. [02 mars 13 22:20:20] * latro`a_ * .e'a sai
  923. [02 mars 13 22:20:43] * fpcalep * ua vrude fa do
  924. [02 mars 13 22:20:45] * fpcalep * ki'e sai
  925. [02 mars 13 22:21:30] * fpcalep * .i ta'o do fo ma ctuca
  926. [02 mars 13 22:23:01] > kumul has joined
  927. [02 mars 13 22:25:08] * latro`a_ * lo datni cmaci
  928. [02 mars 13 22:25:10] * latro`a_ * .i tolzdi
  929. [02 mars 13 22:25:24] * fpcalep * ua ie
  930. [02 mars 13 22:26:11] < kumool has disconnected (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  931. [02 mars 13 22:39:02] > jey_ has joined
  932. [02 mars 13 22:39:15] < jey has disconnected (Disconnected by services)
  933. [02 mars 13 22:39:16] ^ jey_ is now known as jey
  934. [02 mars 13 22:49:53] > kumool has joined
  935. [02 mars 13 22:49:58] * Ilmen * .i di'a jundi
  936. [02 mars 13 22:50:55] * Ilmen * .i .ua .u'i
  937. [02 mars 13 22:51:01] > djeimsyxuis has joined
  938. [02 mars 13 22:51:45] * Ilmen * .i do zukte fi lonu tavla fi la xorlo vau .ua
  939. [02 mars 13 22:52:01] * Ilmen * .i mi jundi .ei ca zo'e
  940. [02 mars 13 22:52:09] < kumul has disconnected (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  941. [02 mars 13 22:52:57] * latro`a_ * .i .ei mi me'oi reboot
  942. [02 mars 13 22:53:04] * latro`a_ * ki'u lo nu lo sance co'e cu nabmi
  943. [02 mars 13 22:53:15] * Ilmen * .i .y mi de'a jundi za'u roi
  944. [02 mars 13 22:53:21] > rossi has joined
  945. [02 mars 13 22:53:34] * Ilmen * i co'o
  946. [02 mars 13 22:53:53] * latro`a_ * .i ba zi di'a
  947. [02 mars 13 22:53:59] < fluzios has disconnected (Read error: Operation timed out)
  948. [02 mars 13 22:54:48] < latro`a_ has disconnected (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  949. [02 mars 13 22:56:42] > fluzios has joined
  950. [02 mars 13 23:02:52] > latro`a has joined
  951. [02 mars 13 23:03:17] * latro`a * coi
  952. [02 mars 13 23:10:05] * Ilmen * coi
  953. [02 mars 13 23:15:00] < djeimsyxuis has disconnected (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi)
  954. [02 mars 13 23:24:15] * latro`a * .i ju'i la fpcalep
  955. [02 mars 13 23:25:52] > djeimsyxuis has joined
  956. [02 mars 13 23:25:57] * fpcalep * re'i
  957. [02 mars 13 23:25:58] * fpcalep * !
  958. [02 mars 13 23:26:01] * Ilmen * .i xlali fa lonu tepi'o lo sepygau pe zo zoi, lo zanymle voksancrklik naku .i'enai jai se curmi vau .uinai zo'o
  959. [02 mars 13 23:26:16] * Ilmen * <_<
  960. [02 mars 13 23:26:26] * fpcalep * I'm about ready to start
  961. [02 mars 13 23:26:36] * Ilmen * .i .a'a bu'o
  962. [02 mars 13 23:26:47] * Ilmen * .i .a'u
  963. [02 mars 13 23:26:59] * fpcalep * Though it may come out a little ... jumbled :) I'll try my best though
  964. [02 mars 13 23:28:37] * fpcalep * xu la'ei latro'a cu bredi
  965. [02 mars 13 23:30:36] > tsani has joined
  966. [02 mars 13 23:31:15] * Ilmen * .i coi la tsani
  967. [02 mars 13 23:34:20] > kumul has joined
  968. [02 mars 13 23:37:27] < djeimsyxuis has disconnected (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi)
  969. [02 mars 13 23:37:45] < kumool has disconnected (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  970. [02 mars 13 23:38:13] > kumool has joined
  971. [02 mars 13 23:39:05] * fpcalep * latro`a: ping
  972. [02 mars 13 23:39:36] < kumul has disconnected (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  973. [02 mars 13 23:40:17] * Ilmen seizes the bat
  974. [02 mars 13 23:40:48] * fpcalep * do kavbu lo volratcu
  975. [02 mars 13 23:41:41] * Ilmen * In my dictionnary I've the word "bat" for 'raquette' .iacu'i
  976. [02 mars 13 23:42:23] * triliyn * "bat" means both of those things
  977. [02 mars 13 23:42:40] * fpcalep * tttttttttttttttriliyn0rzzz
  978. [02 mars 13 23:42:59] * Ilmen * .i .ua
  979. [02 mars 13 23:43:17] * fpcalep * Baseball bat
  980. [02 mars 13 23:43:26] * Ilmen * .ie
  981. [02 mars 13 23:44:29] * fpcalep * jan Ilemen o, mi kute e ni: sina wile kama sona e toki pona. ni li pona mute tawa mi :)
  982. [02 mars 13 23:45:22] ^ fpcalep is now known as selpa`i
  983. [02 mars 13 23:45:37] > DEMien has joined
  984. [02 mars 13 23:45:38] < zahlman1 has disconnected (Quit: Leaving.)
  985. [02 mars 13 23:46:54] * Ilmen * .i ki'ai .xexe. ma cusku fi do fe lo du'u mi tadni lo bangrtokponas vau .u'iru'e
  986. [02 mars 13 23:47:36] * selpa`i * mi zgana lo nu do cusku
  987. [02 mars 13 23:47:49] < Stefan100 has disconnected
  988. [02 mars 13 23:47:57] ^ selpa`i is now known as fpcalep
  989. [02 mars 13 23:50:36] * latro`a * coi
  990. [02 mars 13 23:50:42] * latro`a * do'u .u'u pu na'e jundi
  991. [02 mars 13 23:51:13] * Ilmen * .i sa'u je'u gau da noi mi na djuno fi ke'a ku'o mi co'a jundi lonu casnu lo bangrtokponas
  992. [02 mars 13 23:51:17] * fpcalep * I have a problem, I own the Ithkuil channel as fpcalep, so when I turn back to selpa`i, I lose op, and I'm the only op there.
  993. [02 mars 13 23:51:25] * fpcalep * So I'll have to stay fpcalep for now.
  994. [02 mars 13 23:51:29] * fpcalep * no'e vajni
  995. [02 mars 13 23:51:39] * latro`a * you can log in on two clients
  996. [02 mars 13 23:51:47] * triliyn * Is fpcalep an ithkuil word?
  997. [02 mars 13 23:51:48] * latro`a * you can also link your usernames I think
  998. [02 mars 13 23:51:53] * fpcalep * Yes doi la toldi
  999. [02 mars 13 23:51:56] * latro`a * it means butterfly in ithkuil, apparently
  1000. [02 mars 13 23:52:03] * fpcalep * It means Caterpillar
  1001. [02 mars 13 23:52:06] * Ilmen * caterpillar
  1002. [02 mars 13 23:52:06] * latro`a * oh right
  1003. [02 mars 13 23:52:07] * latro`a * derp
  1004. [02 mars 13 23:52:13] * kantu * whoah, ithkuil has an active irc?
  1005. [02 mars 13 23:52:16] * latro`a * mixed it up with toldi mayhaps -_-
  1006. [02 mars 13 23:52:29] * Ilmen * fpçalep?
  1007. [02 mars 13 23:52:32] * Ilmen * IIRC
  1008. [02 mars 13 23:52:44] * fpcalep * Yes, it becomes "butterfly" if you remove the eph
  1009. [02 mars 13 23:52:56] * latro`a * anyway
  1010. [02 mars 13 23:52:56] * Ilmen * .ua je'e
  1011. [02 mars 13 23:52:59] * Ilmen * ta'o
  1012. [02 mars 13 23:53:01] * fpcalep * Yes, anyway.
  1013. [02 mars 13 23:53:32] * Ilmen * xorlo saga, episode II
  1014. [02 mars 13 23:53:37] * Ilmen * \o/
  1015. [02 mars 13 23:53:39] * fpcalep * So I'll begin if you like. I might forget some things, so make sure to catch anything i overlook
  1016. [02 mars 13 23:53:44] * latro`a * go ahead
  1017. [02 mars 13 23:53:56] * fpcalep * Alright, it may take more than one try to find a way that properly manages to convey the following ideas to you. You're welcome to ask as many questions you like. I'll just keep talking until you interrupt. So you can also wait for me to finish my monologue and ask questions then.
  1018. [02 mars 13 23:54:21] * fpcalep * Imagine, if you will, that all the cats in the universe are the same cat. There is only one cat, and it can appear in different places and at different times.
  1019. [02 mars 13 23:54:41] * fpcalep * The cat I have, the cat you have (if you have one) and the cat that sadly lost a leg in a car accident in 1987 in France are all manifestations of the one and only cat.
  1020. [02 mars 13 23:54:55] * Ilmen * .a'u re'i
  1021. [02 mars 13 23:55:14] * fpcalep * There are many different ways one can call this single, big cat. JCB called it a mass-individual, and he liked to refer to it as Mr. Cat. You can also call it a myopic singular (a fancy word, but quite fitting). It doesn't matter much what you call it, only that you understand how it works, call it cat god if you want.
  1022. [02 mars 13 23:56:06] * fpcalep * You can catch a glimpse of Mr. Cat, or Mr. Shark in all sorts of places. You can come across Mr. Shark when swimming in the ocean, in the local aquarium or in your Sushi (hopefully not though).
  1023. [02 mars 13 23:56:17] * fpcalep * Note that there is a fundamental difference between Mr. Lion and the archetypical lion or the average lion.
  1024. [02 mars 13 23:56:42] < tsani has disconnected (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  1025. [02 mars 13 23:57:01] * fpcalep * The archetypical lion is a carnivore and lives in Africa in the wild. A statement like "The archetypical lion lives in the zoo." is false, whereas it is not false of Mr. Lion, who *does* at some place/time live in a zoo (and maybe has a rare condition that makes him despise meat!).
  1026. [02 mars 13 23:57:21] * fpcalep * Similarly, the typical bird can fly, but Mr. Bird is not at all times able to fly, for example when he is a penguin.
  1027. [02 mars 13 23:58:13] * fpcalep * You (doi la latro'a) might call this a Kind, but I personally prefer not to use that term. To me, a Kind is an abstract thing, and I cannnot touch an abstract thing (but I *can* though {lo mlatu}. However, if you are more comfortable using the Kind analogy, then by all means us it, as long as it lets you understand what {lo broda} is and how it behaves when scope and quantification is in play.
  1028. [02 mars 13 23:58:41] * latro`a * you can't touch the full entity, you can only touch a piece of it
  1029. [02 mars 13 23:58:44] * latro`a * the full entity doesn't even exist
  1030. [02 mars 13 23:58:48] * latro`a * it's an abstraction
  1031. [02 mars 13 23:59:15] * fpcalep * It bears some resemblence to how uncountable nouns (mass-nouns) are used in English. There is Water in your cup and Water in mine. There is Elephant in Africa and there is Elephant in Asia. In China, Dog is put into Food, and in 1957, Dog was in Space (and her name was Laika).
  1032. [02 mars 13 23:59:46] * fpcalep * Well, I can touch you here and now, and then I have only touched one spatio-temporal part of you, not the all of you.
  1033. [03 mars 13 00:00:18] * fpcalep * When a hunter shoots three moose, he also shoots Mr. Moose (three times, in fact!).
  1034. [03 mars 13 00:00:23] * latro`a * true enough, but still, time issues aside this full entity doesn't exist and isn't involved in almost any relations
  1035. [03 mars 13 00:00:30] < kantu has disconnected (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  1036. [03 mars 13 00:00:49] * latro`a * anyway, go ahead, I'm still with you
  1037. [03 mars 13 00:01:01] > kantu has joined
  1038. [03 mars 13 00:01:20] * Ilmen * .i .a'a bu'ocu'i
  1039. [03 mars 13 00:01:33] * latro`a * my only point here was that this is more abstract than the "you touch Mr. Cat" or "you shoot Mr. Moose" description actually suggests
  1040. [03 mars 13 00:02:13] * kantu * (can someone olease put his explanation up until now into pastebin? freenode lost connection just now, and it happens to politely nuke your chat log when it loses connection -.-)
  1041. [03 mars 13 00:02:49] * Ilmen * I'll try to do so provided I'm not disconnected either :)
  1042. [03 mars 13 00:03:16] * Ilmen * (doi la kantu)
  1043. [03 mars 13 00:03:27] * fpcalep * A short tangent on specificity:
  1044. [03 mars 13 00:03:36] * fpcalep * The reason why we can use {lo broda} to talk about specific situations is not because {lo broda} itself refers to anything in particular (specific), but because it gets embedded in a meaningful context:
  1045. [03 mars 13 00:03:49] * fpcalep * {lo gerku cu va nenri lo tanxe}
  1046. [03 mars 13 00:03:54] * fpcalep * "Dog is in Box there."
  1047. [03 mars 13 00:03:59] * fpcalep * "There is dog-being-inside-box-ing going on there."
  1048. [03 mars 13 00:04:09] * kantu * ki'e
  1049. [03 mars 13 00:04:34] * fpcalep * It may take some rewiring of one's way of thinking to fully internalize and appreciate this way of looking at the world. Note that there are reports of natural languages that works like this. I found it very interesting to make this mental shift.
  1050. [03 mars 13 00:04:52] * fpcalep * (it's simple, but different)
  1051. [03 mars 13 00:05:07] * Ilmen * interesting
  1052. [03 mars 13 00:05:12] * fpcalep * {lo} cannot be wrong when {loi} is correct, because {loi} adds something. {lo} cannot be wrong when [a veridical use of] {le} is correct, because {le}, too, adds something.
  1053. [03 mars 13 00:05:37] * fpcalep * If I see a house and want to describe it to you via phone, instead of {le vi zdani cu melbi .i .au mi te vecnu le vi zdani}, I can also use {lo vi zdani},
  1054. [03 mars 13 00:06:03] * fpcalep * because when a specific house is beautiful to me, then Mr. House, too, is beautiful to me at that time/place. And it's also true that I want to live in Mr. House even if I have a particular one in mind. That's why {lo} is able to replace all other gadri (able to, not inevitably does so). It is the most basic way to refer to something, no adornments, no restrictions one way or another, an empty gadri that adds nothing.
  1055. [03 mars 13 00:06:49] * fpcalep * If you find yourself actually unable to live without a specificity-gadri, {le} is there, ready to be used by you.
  1056. [03 mars 13 00:07:08] * fpcalep * Personally, I find it cool that you can convey specific things without making very specific claims, just by providing sufficient context.
  1057. [03 mars 13 00:07:45] * fpcalep * There are also things that {lo} can do that are either impossible or very difficult to do otherwise. For instance, imagine a world in which all doctors on the planet have died. With {lo} you can say:
  1058. [03 mars 13 00:07:57] * fpcalep * {mi nitcu lo mikce}
  1059. [03 mars 13 00:08:05] * fpcalep * There is no specific doctor you need, you need any doctor. You can even need a doctor when no doctors are alive.
  1060. [03 mars 13 00:08:27] * fpcalep * On the other hand, {mi nitcu da poi mikce} doesn't do what we want. This is one of the gaps {lo} has filled.
  1061. [03 mars 13 00:08:32] < mlatylorxu has disconnected (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
  1062. [03 mars 13 00:09:02] * fpcalep * (I recently gave a similar example on the mriste, involving sisku: {mi sisku lo mirli} is true although {na ku da mirli} (they had gone extinct in the hypothetical world there)}
  1063. [03 mars 13 00:09:21] * latro`a * there's a problem there that we've encountered already
  1064. [03 mars 13 00:09:58] * latro`a * namely that by introducing {lo mikce} in the first place, you now have an object such that {lo mikce cu mikce} which you're in some way talking about, which means that that object gives you a valid value of {da poi mikce} in the universe of discourse even if not the actual universe
  1065. [03 mars 13 00:10:43] * latro`a * there's still the problem that there's no particular one you need, and lo does help with that, but it doesn't help with existential problems, only adopting a sane policy about universes of discourse will do that
  1066. [03 mars 13 00:10:48] * Ilmen * anyway who the hell can really know what actuallt is in the real universe :P
  1067. [03 mars 13 00:11:05] > kumul has joined
  1068. [03 mars 13 00:11:07] * Ilmen * *runs*
  1069. [03 mars 13 00:11:14] * fpcalep * I'm not sure I follow.
  1070. [03 mars 13 00:11:16] * Ilmen * zo'o ru'e
  1071. [03 mars 13 00:11:20] * latro`a * well, that point aside, the universe of discourse trivially contains more objects than actually exist
  1072. [03 mars 13 00:11:31] * latro`a * in particular it contains more objects than exist on earth
  1073. [03 mars 13 00:11:44] * latro`a * because {lo mikce}, this abstract essence of doctorness that has no actual referents, exists
  1074. [03 mars 13 00:11:47] * fpcalep * {mi sisku lo mirli} means "I am looking for Moose." There is no existential claim involved
  1075. [03 mars 13 00:12:03] * fpcalep * Deer*
  1076. [03 mars 13 00:12:08] * fpcalep * .u'i
  1077. [03 mars 13 00:12:10] * latro`a * there doesn't have to be, any constant exists
  1078. [03 mars 13 00:12:19] * latro`a * not necessarily in the usual epistemology
  1079. [03 mars 13 00:12:22] * v4hn_ * ba'e that discussion again?
  1080. [03 mars 13 00:13:07] * fpcalep * That's why I said {lo} is an intensional article.
  1081. [03 mars 13 00:13:14] * latro`a * that doesn't fix it either
  1082. [03 mars 13 00:13:20] * latro`a * if you can talk about it, it exists in some epistemology
  1083. [03 mars 13 00:13:23] * fpcalep * You don't introduce any instances of {lo mirli}
  1084. [03 mars 13 00:13:39] * latro`a * and in fact in some pertinent epistemology, since you want to talk about it
  1085. [03 mars 13 00:14:11] * v4hn_ * latro`a: {lo zasti befi noda}
  1086. [03 mars 13 00:14:29] < kumool has disconnected (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  1087. [03 mars 13 00:14:34] * Ilmen * what happens with {lo bi'unai co'e}?
  1088. [03 mars 13 00:14:39] * latro`a * that's not a problem either, v4hn_
  1089. [03 mars 13 00:14:50] * latro`a * the blob of nonexistence in any epistemology exists as a blob unto itself
  1090. [03 mars 13 00:15:08] * v4hn_ * yeah, just wanted to throw it in
  1091. [03 mars 13 00:15:18] * latro`a * nothing is in it, no matter what the epistemology, but the blob itself exists
  1092. [03 mars 13 00:15:23] * v4hn_ * zasti has nothing to do with uds anyway
  1093. [03 mars 13 00:15:24] * fpcalep * I really doN't see a problem with {mi nitcu/sisku lo mirli}. It is very different from {mi nitcu/sisku da poi mirli}
  1094. [03 mars 13 00:15:59] * fpcalep * (and from su'o lo mirli)
  1095. [03 mars 13 00:16:13] * latro`a * with this model of lo, which really isn't what I think anyone actually has in mind when they speak (and which in particular makes usage of {bi'u nai} essentially garbled nonsense), that works fine, sure
  1096. [03 mars 13 00:16:25] * fpcalep * Thank you.
  1097. [03 mars 13 00:16:32] * fpcalep * So we can return to this later. Let me continue.
  1098. [03 mars 13 00:16:42] * fpcalep * About constants:
  1099. [03 mars 13 00:16:46] * fpcalep * (yay!?)
  1100. [03 mars 13 00:17:11] * v4hn_ * fpcalep: I agree in that there is not really a problem. The problem John sees though, is that {mi sisku lo mirli} introduces an object/set of objects into the universe of discourse which can still change it's identity afterwards
  1101. [03 mars 13 00:17:28] * fpcalep * Recapping just in case other people are following along that don't know this: Every unquantified sumti acts as a constant (and no sumti has default/implicit quantifiers except {da} where it is {su'o}). In fact, even {da} can be observed to behave like a constant
  1102. [03 mars 13 00:17:32] * v4hn_ * and that's a problem for current theories of formal semantics
  1103. [03 mars 13 00:17:43] * fpcalep * when it is under the scope of its quantifier, for example:
  1104. [03 mars 13 00:17:53] * fpcalep * {ro da zo'u mi na ku broda da} == {ro da zo'u mi da na ku broda}
  1105. [03 mars 13 00:18:05] * fpcalep * (nothing controversial in that i hope)
  1106. [03 mars 13 00:18:21] * latro`a * uhh...
  1107. [03 mars 13 00:18:22] * fpcalep * the right {da} has no quantifier, and moving it around withint the scope of its quantifier (the one in the prenex) won't change anything. The same is true fo every other quantified sumti, too, though one could say they are all just cases of {da}.
  1108. [03 mars 13 00:18:53] * latro`a * I'm not sure it's considered advisable to use non-prenex naku with prenex quantifiers
  1109. [03 mars 13 00:18:58] * latro`a * I certainly wouldn't do it
  1110. [03 mars 13 00:19:19] * fpcalep * Doesn't seem problematic to me.
  1111. [03 mars 13 00:19:27] * fpcalep * The {da} simply scopes over the non-prenex.
  1112. [03 mars 13 00:19:31] * latro`a * the first one definitely seems like a problem to me
  1113. [03 mars 13 00:19:32] * fpcalep * Whatever is in there.
  1114. [03 mars 13 00:19:44] * latro`a * in particular I don't think the CLL specified what the former means
  1115. [03 mars 13 00:20:15] * fpcalep * I you wish, I can use another example that shouldn't upset *anyone*
  1116. [03 mars 13 00:20:32] * fpcalep * {ro da zo'u da de broda} == {ro da zo'u de da se broda}
  1117. [03 mars 13 00:20:46] * fpcalep * Same point applies.
  1118. [03 mars 13 00:21:17] * fpcalep * Anyway, I think the general idea is clear?
  1119. [03 mars 13 00:21:24] > kumool has joined
  1120. [03 mars 13 00:21:24] * fpcalep * Here are some things that are always true for the constant {lo broda} (and all other consants):
  1121. [03 mars 13 00:21:38] * fpcalep * {lo broda cu brode lo brodi} == {lo brodi cu se brode lo broda}
  1122. [03 mars 13 00:21:42] * fpcalep * (duh)
  1123. [03 mars 13 00:21:48] * fpcalep * {da broda lo brode} == {lo brode da se broda}
  1124. [03 mars 13 00:21:48] < erkin has disconnected (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying...)
  1125. [03 mars 13 00:21:55] * latro`a * now you're fine, yeah
  1126. [03 mars 13 00:21:55] * fpcalep * And important:
  1127. [03 mars 13 00:22:04] * fpcalep * {na ku lo broda cu brode} == {lo broda na ku brode}
  1128. [03 mars 13 00:22:06] > erkin has joined
  1129. [03 mars 13 00:22:14] * fpcalep * (i except some people to protest)
  1130. [03 mars 13 00:22:17] * fpcalep * expect*!
  1131. [03 mars 13 00:22:34] * fpcalep * In short, scope - be it negation or quantification - does never affect a constant term like {lo broda} (or any of the other gadri)
  1132. [03 mars 13 00:22:51] * fpcalep * This is explicitly so under xorlo.
  1133. [03 mars 13 00:23:27] * latro`a * I think in practice people do some things wrong where existentials sneak in, becasue in practice a lot of things are (under a model of lo which actually deals with entities instead of massive abstract Mr. Cat objects) are existential in the background
  1134. [03 mars 13 00:23:39] * DEMien * I'll just throw this out there. I'm not a logician or philosopher, but it seems like 'lo' tries to convey something like Plato's Theory of Forms.
  1135. [03 mars 13 00:23:40] * latro`a * or at least existentialish
  1136. [03 mars 13 00:23:50] < kumul has disconnected (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
  1137. [03 mars 13 00:24:05] * latro`a * and I think that model influences people's intuition, which is why they object to moving naku around completely freely
  1138. [03 mars 13 00:24:31] * latro`a * I don't think this is *correct* under what xorlo actually says, but as we've seen I don't think what xorlo actually says is particularly intuitive/useful (and I also don't think this is what is in the proposal, either; it is far more specfiic)
  1139. [03 mars 13 00:24:56] * fpcalep * Weird, I find it both intuitive and useful.
  1140. [03 mars 13 00:25:04] * fpcalep * Generics were previously entirely absent from the langauge
  1141. [03 mars 13 00:25:19] * latro`a * I don't find it useful as the default
  1142. [03 mars 13 00:25:21] * fpcalep * What is not correct?
  1143. [03 mars 13 00:25:33] * latro`a * previously lo'e could've been commandeered into generics if that was necessary
  1144. [03 mars 13 00:25:36] * fpcalep * Moving na ku around?
  1145. [03 mars 13 00:25:40] * latro`a * instead of the default gadri for that purpose
  1146. [03 mars 13 00:26:04] * fpcalep * {lo} was semi-superfluous though, and lo'e is the previously mentioned archetypical lion
  1147. [03 mars 13 00:26:06] * latro`a * sorry, "this" in the "I don't think ..." was "not being able to move naku around"
  1148. [03 mars 13 00:26:24] * fpcalep tries to reparse...
  1149. [03 mars 13 00:26:37] * latro`a * it was {la'e di'u} in context
  1150. [03 mars 13 00:27:14] * fpcalep * And xorlo makes things much easier to use - harder to mess things up accidently
  1151. [03 mars 13 00:27:24] * fpcalep * {lo} was redundant to su'o
  1152. [03 mars 13 00:27:32] * latro`a * old-lo is worse
  1153. [03 mars 13 00:27:37] * fpcalep * And {lo} in Loglan was actually our current xorlo {lo} more or less
  1154. [03 mars 13 00:27:57] * fpcalep * Well sure, old lo has an additional {ro} inner quantifier
  1155. [03 mars 13 00:28:17] * latro`a * even then, the default as you're describing it is far more generic than is commonly desired
  1156. [03 mars 13 00:28:27] * latro`a * in particular it really makes a lot of our common constructs completely absurd
  1157. [03 mars 13 00:28:30] * latro`a * {lo ninmu goi ko'a} makes no sense
  1158. [03 mars 13 00:28:42] * latro`a * you don't take a woman, or any particular woman, and put her in ko'a, you put Woman in ko'a
  1159. [03 mars 13 00:28:51] * latro`a * which is useless, you could just say {lo ninmu} again
  1160. [03 mars 13 00:28:56] * latro`a * {bi'u nai} similarly is nonsensical
  1161. [03 mars 13 00:29:28] * Ilmen * then we could consider {lo co'e goi X} as taking an instance of co'e?
  1162. [03 mars 13 00:29:32] * fpcalep * {lo gerku cu va nenri lo tanxe .i lo gerku cu vi na nenri lo tanxe
  1163. [03 mars 13 00:29:34] * fpcalep * }
  1164. [03 mars 13 00:29:58] * latro`a * selpa'i has explicitly objected to instantiations in bridi
  1165. [03 mars 13 00:30:17] * fpcalep * These Dogs are both Dog sure, but they are in different places or times
  1166. [03 mars 13 00:30:25] * Ilmen * even with KOhA family?
  1167. [03 mars 13 00:30:30] * fpcalep * The goi'd sumti can be that particular glimpse
  1168. [03 mars 13 00:30:34] * latro`a * ...
  1169. [03 mars 13 00:30:38] * latro`a * you explicitly objected to that idea earlier
  1170. [03 mars 13 00:30:42] * latro`a * yesterday sa'e
  1171. [03 mars 13 00:30:45] * fpcalep * Hm?
  1172. [03 mars 13 00:30:57] * latro`a * this is plucking referents out and using them to make instantiations
  1173. [03 mars 13 00:31:00] * latro`a * *EXACTLY* the same idea
  1174. [03 mars 13 00:31:02] * fpcalep * No
  1175. [03 mars 13 00:31:04] * fpcalep * look at the bridi
  1176. [03 mars 13 00:31:12] * latro`a * "These Dogs"
  1177. [03 mars 13 00:31:15] * fpcalep * it's two independent dogs
  1178. [03 mars 13 00:31:16] * latro`a * is plucking referents
  1179. [03 mars 13 00:31:18] * fpcalep * one is here, one there
  1180. [03 mars 13 00:31:28] * fpcalep * ok, replace on of them with lo mlatu then
  1181. [03 mars 13 00:31:33] * fpcalep * Or with lo rokci
  1182. [03 mars 13 00:31:39] * Ilmen * lo djacu
  1183. [03 mars 13 00:31:43] * Ilmen * =D
  1184. [03 mars 13 00:31:48] * latro`a * my point was not that it was talking about the same entity
  1185. [03 mars 13 00:31:52] * fpcalep * They are not the same sumti
  1186. [03 mars 13 00:31:58] * latro`a * ...sure they are
  1187. [03 mars 13 00:32:03] * fpcalep * what?
  1188. [03 mars 13 00:32:06] * fpcalep * You are confused.
  1189. [03 mars 13 00:32:10] * latro`a * the sumti itself is always the global Dog
  1190. [03 mars 13 00:32:16] * fpcalep * {lo mlatu cu nenri lo tanxe .i lo rokci cu na nenri lo tanxe}
  1191. [03 mars 13 00:32:32] * latro`a * then there is some mechanism resembling referent removal that "instantiates" and reduces it to concrete events
  1192. [03 mars 13 00:33:14] * latro`a * it's not true that the same dog is being talked about in the two sentences, but that's not what the sumti is
  1193. [03 mars 13 00:33:22] * latro`a * the sumti is the entire entity Dog in every instance, by what you describe earlier
  1194. [03 mars 13 00:33:30] * fpcalep * Yes.
  1195. [03 mars 13 00:33:37] * latro`a * consequently it's the same sumti in every usage
  1196. [03 mars 13 00:33:40] * latro`a * it just participates in different ways
  1197. [03 mars 13 00:34:09] > cntrational has joined
  1198. [03 mars 13 00:34:16] * fpcalep * That is true. You have to use implicit space-time to make this work (or else I think you're right about goi being weird)
  1199. [03 mars 13 00:34:18] * latro`a * but since it's the same sumti, you can't convert it into different entities; you can't think of {lo ninmu} as any particular woman in a given context, which means that actually assigning the sumti to a variable is useless (unless perhaps the predicate is really really long and you don't want to say it twice)
  1200. [03 mars 13 00:34:39] * latro`a * (in which case cei broda is as good up to one syllable)
  1201. [03 mars 13 00:35:23] * fpcalep * It works if you consider the space-time component I mentioned, e.g. {lo gerku} in that one situation is actually {lo va gerku} (plus aspect and tense etc)
  1202. [03 mars 13 00:35:36] * fpcalep * There are some things I haven't mentioned, like quantification and lo
  1203. [03 mars 13 00:35:43] * latro`a * that seems horrifyingly hackish
  1204. [03 mars 13 00:36:07] * fpcalep * Not my fault .u'i
  1205. [03 mars 13 00:36:10] * latro`a * and in fact basically contradicts what you've already said, that {lo gerku} is the generic
  1206. [03 mars 13 00:36:20] * latro`a * you're saying that {lo gerku} is the generic and then shrinks or something
  1207. [03 mars 13 00:36:29] * latro`a * and that the shrinking is used to do everything afterward
  1208. [03 mars 13 00:36:55] * latro`a * in which case why did you go via the generic in the first place? why not explicitly have something that stays generic, and explicitly something that never goes via the generic in the first place?
  1209. [03 mars 13 00:36:55] * fpcalep * I concede that this might be weird. But it's not my invention. We can return to this later.
  1210. [03 mars 13 00:37:15] * fpcalep * We do have {le}
  1211. [03 mars 13 00:37:21] * fpcalep * You can use it if you want.
  1212. [03 mars 13 00:37:24] * latro`a * that does something rather different
  1213. [03 mars 13 00:37:27] * latro`a * which isn't what was desired
  1214. [03 mars 13 00:37:34] * fpcalep * There is also {da}
  1215. [03 mars 13 00:37:43] * latro`a * {lo ninmu} by itself, under the description you gave earlier, can never be a particluar woman
  1216. [03 mars 13 00:37:43] * latro`a * *particular
  1217. [03 mars 13 00:37:48] * latro`a * or any group of 3 women, or any such thing
  1218. [03 mars 13 00:38:11] * latro`a * consequently it can't be used to refer to such groups, even if they're not ones you have in mind or the listener has in mind
  1219. [03 mars 13 00:38:56] * latro`a * what I have in mind here is the third, weak, sort of definiteness: where there's some group of entities out there, particular ones, but you don't really care what they are, but you can refer to them repeatedly
  1220. [03 mars 13 00:39:08] * latro`a * the sort of definiteness that is occuring in "a dog bit the boy. the dog went into the house"
  1221. [03 mars 13 00:39:10] * fpcalep * Yes, I know what you mean.
  1222. [03 mars 13 00:40:40] * fpcalep * lo gerku cu batci lo nanla .i gy klama lo nenri be lo zdani
  1223. [03 mars 13 00:40:48] * fpcalep * Is supposed to work under xorlo.
  1224. [03 mars 13 00:41:12] * latro`a * right, and it doesn't under what you described above, or at least, it's far weaker than is desired
  1225. [03 mars 13 00:41:28] * latro`a * {gy} being the same sumti as {lo gerku} doesn't guarantee that the same dog goes in the house
  1226. [03 mars 13 00:41:41] * fpcalep * I can see a way how it would work though
  1227. [03 mars 13 00:42:09] * fpcalep * Because when you use anaphora, it's like pulling a huge chain of relative clauses behind you
  1228. [03 mars 13 00:42:15] * fpcalep * the gy there for example
  1229. [03 mars 13 00:42:21] * fpcalep * picks up the previous bridi event
  1230. [03 mars 13 00:42:43] < erkin has disconnected (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying...)
  1231. [03 mars 13 00:42:44] * latro`a * I question how you would implement this
  1232. [03 mars 13 00:42:47] * fpcalep * So gy = lo gerku poi [whatever.tense.previous.bridi.had] batci lo nanla
  1233. [03 mars 13 00:43:05] * latro`a * that makes poi essentially magic
  1234. [03 mars 13 00:43:16] * latro`a * because I can think of a dog that did it
  1235. [03 mars 13 00:43:17] * latro`a * Dog
  1236. [03 mars 13 00:43:20] * latro`a * that one always does it
  1237. [03 mars 13 00:43:31] > erkin has joined
  1238. [03 mars 13 00:43:36] * latro`a * and there's no particular reason why you can't put that one as the referent of the poi, too
  1239. [03 mars 13 00:43:38] * fpcalep * Not exactly
  1240. [03 mars 13 00:43:45] > carvi has joined
  1241. [03 mars 13 00:44:05] * fpcalep * In this case it is Mr. Just-bit-a-boy-over-there-Dog
  1242. [03 mars 13 00:44:17] * fpcalep * That's what the poi does
  1243. [03 mars 13 00:44:30] * latro`a * oh, so that changes when you add the ku?
  1244. [03 mars 13 00:44:32] * fpcalep * And the tenses
  1245. [03 mars 13 00:44:34] * latro`a * it sounds like it does
  1246. [03 mars 13 00:44:48] * fpcalep * I thought of that too
  1247. [03 mars 13 00:44:58] * latro`a * it sounds like when you add the ku you get what I said
  1248. [03 mars 13 00:45:02] * latro`a * since it is true that Dog bit the boy
  1249. [03 mars 13 00:45:09] * fpcalep * I think xorxes either likes to forget about the different ku placements, or he simply dislikes them
  1250. [03 mars 13 00:45:18] * fpcalep * So I don't think this is defined in xorlo
  1251. [03 mars 13 00:45:46] * latro`a * really though, I think this approach is trying very hard to hide the fact that its generics are objects in its universe of discourse of their own rigth
  1252. [03 mars 13 00:45:47] * latro`a * *right
  1253. [03 mars 13 00:45:49] * fpcalep * (things like la broda noi)
  1254. [03 mars 13 00:46:14] * latro`a * and that consequently you can be a jerk and have poi's that don't do anything, since the generic object itself satisfies the relative clause
  1255. [03 mars 13 00:46:42] * fpcalep * The jerk arguments don't impress me much.
  1256. [03 mars 13 00:46:58] * latro`a * this isn't nearly as jerkish as bear goo, though
  1257. [03 mars 13 00:47:16] * latro`a * if the generic object satisfies the predicate, why can't it be the referent?
  1258. [03 mars 13 00:47:24] * latro`a * especially if it's the "natural" object, the "default choice"
  1259. [03 mars 13 00:47:37] * latro`a * I also think it hides meaning, which is something I've been saying for ages: for example it makes anaphora, as we noticed earlier, rather subtle
  1260. [03 mars 13 00:47:43] * latro`a * it=this definition of lo
  1261. [03 mars 13 00:48:08] * fpcalep * Can you give an example of the generic obejct satisfying the predicate?!
  1262. [03 mars 13 00:48:13] * fpcalep * (getting late here)
  1263. [03 mars 13 00:48:15] * latro`a * you already did
  1264. [03 mars 13 00:48:18] * latro`a * {lo gerku cu batci}
  1265. [03 mars 13 00:48:24] * latro`a * says the generic object does it
  1266. [03 mars 13 00:48:27] * latro`a * it's built into the syntax
  1267. [03 mars 13 00:48:27] * fpcalep * Yes
  1268. [03 mars 13 00:48:33] * fpcalep * And?
  1269. [03 mars 13 00:48:39] * latro`a * the generic object has all the properties of the particular object
  1270. [03 mars 13 00:48:54] * latro`a * consequently {lo gerku poi batci lo nanla} can just be {lo gerku}, since the generic Dog bites the boy too
  1271. [03 mars 13 00:49:09] * latro`a * if it didn't you couldn't have said {lo gerku cu batci} in the first place
  1272. [03 mars 13 00:49:49] * fpcalep * Right. You need contextual spatio-temporal considerations
  1273. [03 mars 13 00:50:16] * fpcalep * But please let me talk about quantification really fast
  1274. [03 mars 13 00:50:39] * fpcalep * There are possibly helpful things in there
  1275. [03 mars 13 00:51:12] * fpcalep * First of all, there isn't just one possible Mr Broda, there are many different ones for different tenses and numbers etc
  1276. [03 mars 13 12:16:42] # The topic is 'Main Site: http://lojban.org/ | Lojban Only Channel: #jbosnu | Classes for beginners: #ckule | Word Lookup: http://vlasisku.lojban.org/ | Parse Checkers: http://www.lojban.org/jboski/ and http://camxes.lojban.org/ | Asking Questions: http://lojban.shapado.com/' (set by [email protected])
  1277. [03 mars 13 12:17:08] ? Notice from ChanServ: [#lojban] Welcome to #lojban (http://www.lojban.org/). Here you can talk in Lojban about anything, or about Lojban in any language. Please familiarize yourself with http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Lojban+IRC. PLEASE NOTE: Everything you say in the language of Lojban is logged publically at http://www.lojban.org/resources/irclog/.
  1278. [03 mars 13 12:18:38] * Ilmen * coi
  1279. ===============
  1280. [03 mars 13 15:32:21] * Ilmen * The last sentence I recorded before disconnecting was «fpcalep * First of all, there isn't just one possible Mr Broda, there are many different ones for different tenses and numbers etc»
  1281. [03 mars 13 15:32:22] > menturi has joined
  1282. [03 mars 13 15:32:50] * Ilmen * when he started talking about quantification
  1283. [03 mars 13 15:35:09] * Ilmen * Anyway did Selpa'i have time enough to finish his demonstration?
  1284. [03 mars 13 15:35:19] * Ilmen * probably not
  1285. [03 mars 13 15:35:40] * Ilmen * it was getting pretty late then
  1286. [03 mars 13 15:46:38] * latro`a * no, he pretty much did
  1287. [03 mars 13 15:46:46] * Ilmen * .i .ua
  1288. [...]
  1289. ===============
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