[22:08:52] <castfromhp> Okay now I'm back and have read up.
[22:08:54] <castfromhp> For the record
[22:08:58] <castfromhp> 1) yes zoof is taking this a bit too hard
[22:09:08] <castfromhp> 2) no, you and Tree are NOT correct to be this dismissive of his concerns
[22:09:18] <castfromhp> Where should I start with the detail on my assessment here?
[22:09:35] <castfromhp> because I think there's something about this you two just DON'T GET.
[22:09:46] <Mons> but... i'm not being DISMISSIVE
[22:09:51] <Mons> he understood when he read it over
[22:11:22] <Mons> i was explaining exactly WHY his concerns shouldn't be concerns.
[22:11:49] <castfromhp> Did he actually come to some sort of accord with you? It didn't seem like it.
[22:11:52] <Mons> tree was kinda being insulting though, yes, and it also gets to me that zoof talked over me to jump straight with arguing with him instead of taking GM word first and foremost
[22:11:54] <Mons> in PM
[22:12:02] <Mons> he did say that he was basically talking with tree and not me
[22:12:10] <Mons> and got mad over tree
[22:13:03] <castfromhp> But honestly, how FUCKING hard is it to just say "okay yes this is a Turf reference but in the Academyverse the events of the Turf timeline don't necessarily come to fruition and it's possible your character, their descendents or other legacy will change the fate of the world"?
[22:13:24] <castfromhp> Because really
[22:13:31] <castfromhp> Entire argument over with in one post.
[22:13:51] <castfromhp> In a game where the entire premise is "you are special snowflakes who have the potential to change the world in major ways"?
[22:14:06] <Mons> be...cause whether or not any of that even doesn't actually come up? at all? I mean only if it makes sense eventually, but you CAN'T predict these things
[22:14:17] <castfromhp> So if it doesn't ever come up what's wrong with SAYING that?
[22:14:19] <Mons> and the initial comment that set him off was pretty much a joke :V
[22:14:26] <castfromhp> Then why did you continue to ARGUE it?
[22:14:31] <Mons> because it's a lot to out and say, feels like i'm CONFIRMING it.
[22:14:39] <Mons> because zoof continued to argue it, and I explained.
[22:14:48] <castfromhp> That's really not how I read it.
[22:14:52] <Mons> You keep going "i'm not arguing I'm stating things"
[22:14:54] <castfromhp> Not when there was such an easy answer there.
[22:15:00] <castfromhp> Which is "the future is not fixed".
[22:15:02] <Mons> Well that's what I was doing, stating exactly everything
[22:15:25] <Mons> zoof, again, was arguing because tree.
[22:15:46] <castfromhp> Well, why not say that NOW then in academychannel to clear it all up?
[22:15:57] <Mons> because it'd spark shit again.
[22:15:59] <castfromhp> If you don't, that only means there's some reason that ISN'T true.
[22:16:08] <Mons> oh THAT
[22:16:15] <castfromhp> [22:13:03] <castfromhp> But honestly, how FUCKING hard is it to just say "okay yes this is a Turf reference but in the Academyverse the events of the Turf timeline don't necessarily come to fruition and it's possible your character, their descendents or other legacy will change the fate of the world"?
[22:16:16] <castfromhp> This
[22:16:17] <castfromhp> Say
[22:16:18] <castfromhp> this
[22:16:31] <castfromhp> Is that NOT true? It seems like it WOULD be.
[22:16:33] <Mons> because... I don't know. I haven't entirely come to a decision on all the ramifications of that, and whether they SHOULD be relevant.
[22:16:55] <castfromhp> This is what I call being too beholden to other canons.
[22:17:07] <Mons> I don't know. at all. i never expected to have to think about this, and now I have to cover WHERE I would.
[22:17:16] <castfromhp> This is something that you 1) admit has no real relevance no matter how you decide and 2) is directly impacting a player's fun
[22:17:28] <castfromhp> So...what's the harm in that decision?
[22:17:59] <Mons> because the situation is already solved.
[22:18:11] <Mons> to suddenly go back and have to cover this, HAVE to bring it up, and HAVE to work it out
[22:18:16] <Mons> would be another whole process.
[22:18:34] <castfromhp> At least say it in PMs to zoof then.
[22:19:57] <Mons> honestly part of the reason i'm hesitating is that it kinda feels like now YOU'RE forcing something on me, like it HAS to not be relevant, and like I HAVE to now be beholden to do something like that at some point because of it.
[22:20:22] <castfromhp> No I just don't want you to call me in on "make zoof see my side of this argument" when it's something that's so easily solved.
[22:20:33] <castfromhp> And if this can prevent this point from coming up again in the future, then it should be done.
[22:20:48] <Mons> But it's solved by essentially tying myself to an option that someone else wants.
[22:21:46] <castfromhp> Well, look, you keep saying it's not relevant to the scope of Academy. If that's true, WHY can't you say the future is malleable? Obviously then the answer is it IS somehow relevant and when that's brought up again zoof will be even more frustrated that you haven't taken his concerns to heart.
[22:22:04] <Mons> Because now I don't even know.
[22:22:07] <castfromhp> And if you're not gonna take steps now to head that off, I can't help you if it gets like that in the future.
[22:22:13] <Mons> it's... okay see now can't YOU understand
[22:22:18] <Mons> That saying this
[22:22:21] <Mons> REALLY feels like
[22:22:31] <Mons> saying "You will be able to do this, this is gonna happen, confirming it"
[22:22:42] <Mons> and that's a lot to confirm
[22:22:51] <Mons> instead of things just
[22:22:57] <Mons> being dropped while he's now cool about it
[22:23:07] <Mons> and being a surprise later on if it happens
[22:23:18] <castfromhp> No, all I'm really saying is if you aren't gonna take my advice here then don't ask me for help with the cleanup if you do change your mind and make it relevant and that results in someone getting buttmad.
[22:23:21] <Mons> as opposed to just SAYING this and thus more or less implicating that it's a definite.
[22:24:08] <Mons> but it isn't even a problem anymore.
[22:25:03] <castfromhp> Okay sure. But now you're undecided on the relevance of it after you've sort of reassured zoof that it WOULDN'T be relevant. So I'm just gonna say, if you do make it relevant and then someone takes it badly, I can't and won't help you with clean up or convincing people to not be mad or whatever. Simple enough, yeah?
[22:25:19] <Mons> :/
[22:25:26] <Mons> but you won't even KNOW how this works.
[22:26:00] <Mons> I just really wanted to drop it all.
[22:26:17] <castfromhp> I know that. Look, I'm not saying I have the same issue as zoof to the same degree he did while he was arguing. I'm saying I don't want to be asked to help in clean up if it turns ugly later because I've already offered what I thought was a good solution.
[22:26:24] <Mons> but now you've got me thinking about it again, and the thing... god it's like
[22:26:53] <Mons> Do you not see how the solution you offered is doing the same thing in a different direction?
[22:27:00] <Mons> Tying myself to "this will happen"?
[22:27:14] <castfromhp> Not really. It's just saying "the future is not set in stone".
[22:27:35] <castfromhp> "Don't think that the events of other games will pass exactly as they did in this universe"
[22:27:46] <Mons> But by BRINGING that up, out of nowhere, when it's a non-issue now, is like basically going "wink wink now there's gonna be a thing about changing the events leading to turf"
[22:28:07] <castfromhp> And in any case I'm not trying to push a solution on you here. I'm just saying, if you take some other path and it makes buttmad happen, don't expect me to help out there.
[22:28:16] <Mons> As opposed to people just taking it as an assumption given the totally changed happygame endings.
[22:28:35] <Mons> That just sounds to me like
[22:28:50] <Mons> "Make this plotline happen or I will stop helping you to understand people."
[22:29:18] <Mons> Because again, bringing that specific thing up now is basically like subtly confirming that I have some sort of idea or intent for changing the future in that way.
[22:29:19] <castfromhp> I could be more absolute and say "don't ask me anymore to argue your points on your behalf when players disagree with them". :/ But I'm not.
[22:29:39] <castfromhp> I'm just saying to leave me out of this argument if it happens again.
[22:29:44] <Mons> oh ok
[22:29:48] <Mons> see that'd be easier than just
[22:29:55] <Mons> giving me a rock and a hard place thing
[22:30:09] <Mons> or trying to do what I see as binding myself to making another plotline
[22:30:43] <Mons> I guess without reinterpretation of what I'm trying to say, actually getting across the whole
[22:30:59] <Mons> "sometimes GM intent should just be accepted" might lead to ragequits but hey
[22:31:06] <castfromhp> Because the core of it is you were kind of asking me up there to argue for a stance I disagreed with (note the comments I said about zoof's concerns right before I left for dinner).
[22:31:20] <Mons> and I mean on stuff like the whole "how the snowflake flaws would work"
[22:31:20] <castfromhp> And I...don't want to do that for the sole sake of calming things down.
[22:31:41] <Mons> I admit I WAS asking you to do something impossible yeah
[22:31:59] <Mons> but again, that's mostly because zoof wasn't really reading my shit.
[22:32:08] <Mons> he was arguing with tree and tree was being jokey and dismissive.
[22:32:16] <castfromhp> I don't want to get into this, but you definitely came off at some points as dismissive.
[22:32:38] <castfromhp> Because you were essentially saying "well you don't die from plague IMMEDIATELY so it's okay"
[22:34:40] <Mons> blrgh i wish i wasn't in the habit of immediately cutting off PM windows so I could just show you what zoof said later
[22:35:00] <castfromhp> I dunno, it's not an argument I wanted to take yours/Tree's side on, and I was kinda miffed that I came back to see you had asked me to do just that when I made it clear right before I left where I stood on that I guess. :V
[22:35:30] <Mons> I was mostly asking you to do that magical thing of yours where you rephrase statements and suddenly they make a lot more sense :V
[22:35:49] <castfromhp> So I'm just making it clear that in future situations if we're at odds on some thing, even if I'm not going to get all BUTT RANGED DETROIT RAVAGED over it, I don't really want to be asked  to back up points I don't agree with.