AnCap Convert?

You're now chatting with a random stranger. Say hi!
You: Hi
Stranger: not a f
Stranger: sorry
You: i dont care
You: lol
Stranger: what other interests did you put apart from that?
You: guns, politics, food
Stranger: got any guns?
You: Once so far
You: Or do mean, do I have guns? lol
Stranger: yeah
You: I have 4
You: You?
Stranger: nah zero
Stranger: what guns you got?
You: A Mosin-Nagant M39, a Hi-Point 995TS, a CZ SP01 Phantom, and a J.C. Higgins shotgun
Stranger: what's your favourite
You: I think the Hi-Point and CZ are my favorites
You: But they are all good guns
Stranger: cool
Stranger: the russian one must be cool
Stranger: because it's so classic
You: It is
You: It's extra cool actually
You: Because it's one of the ones that got captured by the Finnish during the Winter War
You: And they reworked it and put it back in service
You: Somehow, it found it's way to me.
You: If guns could talk, no?
Stranger: yeah
Stranger: that's interesting
Stranger: wonder which poor serf had that gun in the first place?
You: I dunno
You: Hey probably didn't give it up voluntarily though
You: lol
Stranger: yeah
Stranger: probably had an exceptionally shitty life
Stranger: to be honest
You: Yeah
You: War is shit
Stranger: yeah
Stranger: living in 1920s and '30s russia then dying in the snow
You: Soviet Russia sucked balls
You: Unless you were in charge then it was awesome lol
Stranger: definitely in the 30s and 40s and 50s it would have been horrible
You: yeah
You: it seems the USA is having some similar problems now to what the USSR did before it collapsed too
You: Kind of scary
Stranger: im sure it's not that bad
You: Not yet
You: I hope it doesn't get that bad
You: But we already have the wars of aggression, reduction of civil rights, mass printing of money
You: Increase in prices
You: Almost half the population is on some kind of government assistane
You: I think it's a matter of time before it gets fixed or breaks.
You: What do you think?
Stranger: yeah
Stranger: still a lot of money there though
Stranger: it might get poorer
Stranger: but it can afford to
You: doesn't have to though
You: know what i mean?
Stranger: well
Stranger: you can either give more money to the poor and try to elevate them out of poverty
Stranger: which makes the middle and upper classes poorer
You: right
Stranger: or you can just leave them for dead
Stranger: which makes them poorer
You: I don't think it has to be that way
You: Poverty was at it's lowest in the USA's history just before welfare programs were introduced
Stranger: when was that?
You: When you take money from middle class people and give it to poor people, you just make more poor people
You: In the 60's
You: And when you give poor people too much assistance, it encourages them to stay poor
You: I have nothing against helping poor people.
You: But I think there are better ways to do it than just giving them a monthly check.
You: You could offer them job training for industries that need more people for example
Stranger: yeah
Stranger: well another thing is
You: Plus I think it's wrong to steal money from people and give it to other people
You: Even if you are the government
You: It discourages people from being productive
Stranger: i disagree
Stranger: i think it's disgusting that so many people earn millions in the same country where others live in slums
Stranger: because they manipulated a system
You: What about the people who earned that money honestly? Would you punish them too?
Stranger: how can you earn millions of dollars honestly?
Stranger: you can't
You: Of course you can
Stranger: you could just say those people are stealing from others
Stranger: what, bankers and business tycoons?
You: If you provide a service to people that they find valuable, they will give you money. The most valuable goods and services get the most money.
You: It's like voting for who gives the best products
You: So most of the time, people are rich because other people value what they do
You: Now, the bankers I would agree are not honest
You: But is, say, Mark Zuckerberg a bad man?
Stranger: but the people who work in coca cola and mcdonalds are honest?
You: He invented Facebook. A lot of people like that and use it, so he made money because he provided a good people like.
Stranger: what did zuckerberg ever do to earn millions?
Stranger: he never worked much harder than a lot of people
Stranger: most people
You: I'm sure it's no easy task to make something like Facebook.
Stranger: it's just a simple website, there have been others before quite similar
Stranger: and the money from facebook is generated from advertising
You: It seems to me like you think people should be millionaires for digging holes and cleaning windows, or conversely, nobody should be millionaires at all, even if they provide valuable goods and services.
Stranger: and massive businesses giving money
You: That advertising money would not be there if people did not like and use facebook
You: Suppose I make a bicycle, and I offer it for sale for $100.
Stranger: actually if everyone earned quite a similar amount, someone who "digs holes" as someone who manipulates people with advertising, yeah, that would be a lot better and there wouldn't be poor people
You: And people like my bicycle, so many people buy it.
You: Milllions of people buy my bicycle.
You: I now have a lot of money. I have provided jobs to people who can make bicycles, and all the people who make tools for making bicycles, and all the people who provide services and goods to those people as well.
You: Am I a bad person because I provided a valuable good and made money doing it?
Stranger: and yet you took a gigantic sum of the money
Stranger: i can't believe you think corporations and advertising is an honest game full of chirpy people just providing a great service
You: I didn't "take" anything, the people who bought the bicycles valued them more than the $100, otherwise, they would not have bought them.
You: I'm not saying corporations are saints, I'm saying not all corporations are evil money grubbing machines designed to keep everyone poor
You: If corporations did that then nobody could buy their goods!
Stranger: designed to keep themselves rich
You: You would have them make a business that keeps them poor?
Stranger: wait
You: There's no sense in that. It indicates a business that is poorly run, or not valuable.
Stranger: you said the motivation/aim is providing a good service
You: Yes
Stranger: not making money
You: That is also a motivation
You: But it's hard to make money if you provide a shitty service constantly
Stranger: hang on
You: Therefore you must provide a service people value
Stranger: giving yourself a gigantic cut of the profits is what im talking about
Stranger: why not, when people start to earn far more than they need, tax them heavily?
You: Because that's stealing.
You: Stealing is wrong.
Stranger: stealing?
You: Taxation is stealing.
Stranger: hahaha
You: Let me explain.
Stranger: really don't bother
Stranger: not trying to be rude but i wont agree
You: Tell you what
You: I'll explain, and if it makes no sense still, then you can disagree.
Stranger: i'm sure it will make sense in a way but not in a way i agree with
You: We'll see
You: Ok, let me first ask you, what is stealing?
Stranger: false dichotomy detected
Stranger: im sorry, i wont engage
You: You haven't even heard my arguement, and you are already invalidating it
You: Dont you think that's a bit dishonest?
Stranger: no
Stranger: i've sensed that you're trying to lure me into saying "stealing is when you take something that doesn't belong to you"
You: That's what it is! lol
You: What else could it be?
Stranger: yes
Stranger: then you'll apply that to the idea of taxation
Stranger: as if it's that simple
You: Well, what is taxation?
You: You tell me
Stranger: it's taking a percentage of income/money to fund the government
You: ok
Stranger: the most important part of funding the government is that it helps the dying, weak, starving
Stranger: of which there are billions
You: Ok, I disagree with that last point, but we'll put that aside for now
You: Let me ask you another question
You: What happens to people who don't pay taxes?
Stranger: not sure exactly
Stranger: investigated, fined, arrested, something i'm sure
You: They get arrested
You: What happens if they resist arrest?
Stranger: what, in the united states?
You: anywhere really
Stranger: i don't know, the police probably kill them :)
You: Right
You: So
You: The government demands you give them money. If you don't the put you in a cage. If you attempt to defend yourself, they kill you.
You: Is that not the same as a robber pointing a gun at you and demanding your wallet on threat of death?
Stranger: no
You: How?
Stranger: the way you phrased that was misleading
Stranger: "the government demands you give them money"
Stranger: actually, they take a percentage of wealth generated
You: right
Stranger: which is never even your money is it?
You: So you mean to tell me
You: All money belongs to the government
Stranger: doesn't it?
Stranger: that's not exactly what i was getting at
Stranger: but i think it does
You: Ok,
You: so if all money belongs to the government
You: That means the government owns all property in the country
Stranger: why?
You: If the government owns all property in the country, then it owns the work of all the people who created that property
You: If it owns that work, then it owns the people
You: And we are all slaves to the government, no?
Stranger: i don't understand the first point that the government owns all property
You: All property is traded or created in exchange for other property, or money, yes?
Stranger: money is a token or a representation of wealth
You: Yes
Stranger: for example
Stranger: a banana
You: But you said the money belongs to the government
Stranger: yes, the money
Stranger: not the wealth or the items they are exchanged for
You: Let's say you have $10 of my money
You: And you buy $10 in beer
You: Do I have the right to claim that beer as mine, since you bought it with my money?
Stranger: it depends on the context, i'm not really sure
Stranger: did i steal your money or what?
Stranger: or did you give me it to buy beer?
You: Well, if you are the government, you sure as hell did lol
Stranger: lol
You: BTW, the money in the USA is created by the Federal Reserve Bank, not the government
Stranger: i've heard that
You: The government has a law that says only Federal Reserve Notes are accepted as valid money to pay for taxes
Stranger: not sure exactly how it works
You: You should read about it, it's really interesting.
Stranger: i heard something a few years ago
You: The funny thing is, the US Constitution says that only Gold and Silver are valid money
Stranger: but it was a conspiracy theory video so i'm not sure how trustworthy it was
You: So technically, the Federal Reserve law is unconstitutional
Stranger: yeah and they abandoned the gold standard in the 60s or something right?
You: Some conspiracy theory videos are good and others are crappy, you just have to do the research yourself
You: In 1971 if I remember correctly
Stranger: oh
You: But that's unconstitutional
You: If there had been an ammendment saying something like, "Money other than gold and silver is also valid" then there would not be any illegality
You: But that is not the case
Stranger: do they still make amendments?
You: In order for an amendment to take place, the congress must vote on it by a large majority
You: Something like over 75% I think
You: Then that is handed to all the states
You: Then the states decide on whether or not to approve it
You: If they all approve it then it is now an amendment, if not, then it fails.
You: This is because the Constitution is like a contract between the people, the states, and the federal government that specifically states what the federal government is allowed to do
You: Anything that is not expressly permitted in the Constitution, the Federal government is prohibited from doing. Those powers are reserved to the people.
You: There is no authority in the constitution for the Federal Government to institute an official money based on bank notes, and this is also expressly forbidden to the states as well
Stranger: so since they've done that against the laws of the government, why don't the members of the senate or whatever speak up about it?
You: Submitted by john2k on Thu, 05/21/2009 - 21:20.
You've come to the best place to ask about this and we are more than happy to help.

Your questions alone show that you do not completely understand the Constitution. But, do not take that comment in a bad way - many of us have only learned these things recently or in the past few years as well.

"this doesn't prohibit the printing of unbacked paper money does it?"

and

"can anybody tell me where it says that the federal government cannot print unbacked paper money in the constitution?"

Notice that I put the words in your quotes, "cannot" and "prohibit", in bold. These are the key points in regards to your misunderstanding of the Constitution.

The Constitution is NOT a list of what the federal government cannot do. It is NOT a list of prohibitions on the federal government.

The Constitution IS a list of what the federal government is authorized to do, with ALL ELSE being DENIED to it by default. The absense of specific constitutional authorization for anything means that the federal government is denied/prohibited by default.

Amendments 9 & 10 are probably the clearest and most simple explanation of that point:

AMENDMENT IX
RIGHTS RETAINED BY THE PEOPLE
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

AMENDMENT X
POWERS RETAINED BY THE STATES AND THE PEOPLE
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

About the money issue, take the following from the Constitution:

Article I, Section 8, Clause 5: The Congress shall have Power…To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures.

Article I, Section 10, Clause 1: No State shall…coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debt.

So, from that we have:

1. The federal government can coin money.

2. States cannot coin money.

3. States have the authority of determining what can be used as a tender in payment of debts by default, because the federal government does not have that specific constitutional authorization.

4. States are then prohibited by the Constitution from making any Thing but gold or silver coin a tender in payment of debts.
You: Ooops copied way more than I meant to
You: Sorry
Stranger: don't worry
You: The reason the senators dont speak up about
You: Is because they benefit from the Federal Reserve
You: Since the "Fed" can just print up money at will, and because they falsely leigslated that FRN's are the only legal currency, the have fooled the people into accepting a money that is easily inflated
You: Which harms the economy
You: The Fed prints money when the government needs it. The government uses that money before the devaluation is realized in the economy. By the time that money is passed down, the economy has adjusted to the excess money and increased prices
You: But the increase in money supply is not distributed evenly amongst all actors, so people's purchasing ability is dramatically reduced.
You: This is how the government funds large social spending, and wars of aggression.
Stranger: and the government pay the federal reserve for the money too right?
You: Technically, yes.
You: But the debt isn't really valid is it?
Stranger: i'm not sure
Stranger: can't get my head around it
You: According to the law, this is unlawful money, right?
You: So any debt based on that money is unlawful too. At least I think so.
Stranger: just trying to remember what this video was claiming about the federal reserve
Stranger: about 5 years ago
You: I'm just going by what the law is lol
Stranger: yeah well if it's right that the government has to be based on the constitution and make changes based on that then i can see what you're saying
You: Right
You: And since the government is supposed to exist because of this Constitution, which is a contract, then it must follow the terms of that contract
You: Or it is unlawful
You: Pretty crazy huh?
Stranger: yeah
Stranger: i'm wondering what you think they should do then, based on that
Stranger: because i can see what you're saying
Stranger: do you think they should cancel all debt with the reserve or something?
You: Well, until more people realize they are being unlawful, they will continue in this way because it benefits them
You: I think that the debt should be cancelled
You: Since it is fraudulent
You: And debts between private people could be renegotiated
You: It seems fair to me
Stranger: i would have to become an economist and try to understand what effect that would have in order to make a judgement on that
You: There's a website that has a lot of good books on economics for free
You: That's how I figured a lot of this out
You: Because I wanted to know more about the economy and debt lol
You: You want the website?
Stranger: sure
You: mises.org
You: You can download the books in PDF or ebook
Stranger: i probably won't read the books because i have a lot of books i don't read that i am supposed to read, already
You: Some of them are narrarated too
Stranger: to be honest
You: lol me too
You: I can suggest a really simple one that's a quick read
You: Easy to understand
You: Essentials of Economics by Faustino Ballve
You: He was a spanish economist
You: Smart guy
You: Anything else you wanted to talk about, or is your brain tired? lol
Stranger: i don't mind
Stranger: thanks for the links and suggestions
You: You are welcome
Stranger: did you remember that this started because we both listed "sex" as our interest?
You: LMAO
Stranger: haha
You: Who would have thought? lol
You: I get pretty turned on by economics though
Stranger: i know
Stranger: oh i can tell
Stranger: haha
You: lol
You: So, how do you feel about taxation now? Now that you know it is theft under threat of violence of a money that belongs to a private institution and is unlawful to use?
You: lol
Stranger: well not necessarily in my country it isn't
Stranger: and i still disagree that it's theft
You: Oh lol
You: Where are you from?
Stranger: i am from the UK
You: I see
You: So, you don't think a group of people threatening violence against you if you do not give them some of your money is theft huh?
Stranger: well
Stranger: it's just the way you say it
Stranger: you know
Stranger: it's like
You: I'm just going by the facts lol
Stranger: coca cola sells $1,000,000 worth of stock or whatever
Stranger: i shouldn't have said stock
Stranger: lol
Stranger: "product" i don't know
You: you mean soda?
Stranger: soda right
Stranger: basically it makes a transaction
You: Right
Stranger: they know there will be a percentage taxed on it
Stranger: it's never "their" money
Stranger: they arrange the price within the context of the taxation
Stranger: same as income isn't it?
Stranger: income tax
You: Of course not, not if the government can demand part of it from you on threat of jail or death it's not your money lol
You: Although it should be
You: If you earned it honestly
You: Suppose I'm Coca Cola ok?
You: And I offer you a can of soda for $1
You: You think that's a good deal. You are thirsty, and like soda. So you give me a $1 and I give you the can.
You: You valued the soda more than the $1.
You: We both are happy.
You: right?
You: So then the government comes to me and says, "If you don't give me 40 cents of that, I will shut down your company and throw you in jail."
Stranger: i would really like a can of coca cola now
Stranger: i wanted a beer when you mentioned that earlier
You: If you were here with me, I would offer you some of mine. lol
Stranger: cheers
You: For free!
You: The government can't tax free yet.
Stranger: omegle's next feature should make it possible to share a beer
You: lol
You: That would be amazing for sure
Stranger: obviously omegle would heavily tax this in order to fund themselves ;)
Stranger: anyway
Stranger: taxation is the context before the transaction, not after, right?
You: Remember, the difference between you buying a coke and the government demanding tax, is that coke isn't pointing a gun at you.
Stranger: haha
Stranger: okay
Stranger: imagine this alternative universe
Stranger: for fun
You: What I meant was, after I make $1 from you, the gov wants a piece of that
Stranger: imagine we all lived in a country where the government did actually rob us at gunpoint
Stranger: and then when we paid up
You: But it does!
Stranger: they gave us a complimentary can of coke
You: LOL
Stranger: not if you're not selling coke
Stranger: haha
Stranger: it's like a science fiction novel right?
You: Uh, "Thanks for the tax money, here's your coke."?
Stranger: yeah
You: lol
Stranger: not even "thanks"
Stranger: they just throw it at you
You: I wouldn't know what to think of that
You: lol
Stranger: okay
Stranger: i just think the way we're looking at this is different
You: So you don't think the government really threatens violence?
Stranger: well it depends, because im not exactly sure what the government does if you don't pay tax, and depends if you think prison is violence
Stranger: which in a way it probably is but that's another issue
You: We went over this, come on man!
You: If you don't pay tax, you get kidnapped and put in jail. If you defend yourself, they kill you!
You: How is that not violence?
Stranger: haha
Stranger: okay
Stranger: cmon
Stranger: just imagine for a second
Stranger: we aren't debating WHETHER paying/not paying taxes should be a crime
Stranger: and we agree it's a crime
Stranger: pretend
Stranger: then that's the government's response to crime, right?
Stranger: same with rapists and thieves etc
You: Right
You: Except a rapist has harmed someone, so the are justly imprisioned to protect soceity
You: And the theif is imprisoned, because the government hates competition
Stranger: haha
You: Now you and me, peaceful people, whom are doing no harm to anybody
You: The gov says to us, "Give us part of your money, or we kill you"
You: Right?
Stranger: no, i think this is where you're not exactly right
Stranger: because
Stranger: just listen for a second
You: The only difference between the gov and the theif is the theif makes no claim to legitimacy, and he does not have a fancy costume.
You: ok
Stranger: with the whole taxes thing, we're discussing whether it should be a crime, whether taxes should exist
Stranger: but when you bring up the imprisonment/violence/killing thing
You: So you agree it's stealing?
Stranger: that's not really the issue we're discussing
Stranger: haha no
Stranger: that's our point we're discussing
You: ok
You: set me straight here
Stranger: hmm?
You: We are discussing if taxes should exist, yes?
Stranger: yes
You: Ok
Stranger: not criminal punishment
You: I argue taxes should not exist, because they are stealing, and stealing is immoral.
You: IF the taxes were voluntary, with no threat of violence, then I would have no problem.
Stranger: right
Stranger: but the point you keep raising about kidnapping us if we don't do it
You: Right!
Stranger: that's actually just standard criminal punishment right?
Stranger: that's not specific to taxes
You: Are you a criminal for resisting a thief?
Stranger: it depends what the laws of your country determine is a criminal and a thief
Stranger: i totally understand that you think
Stranger: the government is the thief
Stranger: but the law doesn't
You: Ok
You: The purpose of government is to protect people from having their rights infringed upon, yes?
Stranger: yeah
Stranger: i guess that is a part of it
You: Do we have the right to own property?
Stranger: yeah
Stranger: man
Stranger: i know you think it's against human rights
Stranger: i get that
Stranger: but the laws of our countries dont think taxation is criminal
Stranger: they think the opposite
You: So how does it make sense that the government says, "Give me part of your property so I can protect your property, or I will kill you!"
Stranger: okay
Stranger: first of all
Stranger: can we make it a little less emotional
Stranger: with the killing thing
Stranger: can we just say "that's the law"
You: I'm not being emotional, that's just the facts.
Stranger: alright but we don't say that the government says "don't sell heroin or i will kill you!"
Stranger: we say it's against the law
You: But it's true too, isn't it?
You: If a heroin dealer resists arrest, he will be killed, no?
Stranger: it's true in a way but it's a bit dishonest
You: I agree it's dishonest.
You: I think it's dishonest for the government to say it's just a law, when what it really amounts to is an opinion with a gun behind it.
Stranger: we're not debating the nature of the law or the police
Stranger: yeah that's a really interesting point
Stranger: and i think there's a lot of truth in it
Stranger: but it's not really what we're talking about with taxes
You: oh
Stranger: unless the taxation thing
You: What are we talking about then?
Stranger: is tied to your belief about laws not being a valid system
You: I think laws are valid
Stranger: we're talking about whether it SHOULD be the law, not the nature of laws themselves
You: Just not laws that violate rights
You: Ah I see.
You: I think it should be a law. Taxation that is.
You: *not
You: NOT
You: lol
Stranger: TOO LATE MAN
Stranger: case closed
You: Aw fuck it all
Stranger: i've won you over
You: Nope! I recant!
You: No!
Stranger: welcome to the democrat party
You: Noooo
Stranger: haha
You: I want to be an Anarcho-Capitalist!
Stranger: that's what they all say
Stranger: can't go back on your word though can you
Stranger: that's a law now
You: It's clearly a type.
Stranger: is that another type?
You: Yes.
You: >_>
Stranger: cool
You: Seriously though
You: Laws that violate rights I think are invalid
Stranger: fair enough
Stranger: that's a noble view and i respect that
You: Thank you
You: So
You: One last question
Stranger: yes
You: Do you think I should be put in jail or shot for not paying taxes? Would you pull the trigger or close the handcuffs?
Stranger: i don't think anyone should be shot
Stranger: i have not really got a good idea what happens to people who don't pay taxes
You: They go to jail, eventually
Stranger: it may be prison, it may be something else, it depends on what exactly they do right?
Stranger: yeah
Stranger: if i was a police officer
Stranger: and i was told "go and arrest this man"
Stranger: i would probably do it
Stranger: sorry sir
You: But you aren't.
Stranger: yeah
Stranger: so?
You: Well, that's kind of skirting the question isn't it?
Stranger: i wouldn't arrest you if i wasn't a police officer
You: Ah ha!
Stranger: trying to be honest
Stranger: really
You: Ok, that's the ticket!
You: So, you disagree with the government using violence against me. That's fantastic.
You: That is, so long as I am being peaceful btw.
You: Right?
Stranger: no idea where you've reached that conclusion
Stranger: violence how?
You: You told me you would not put me in prison or shoot me for not paying taxes.
Stranger: as a person?
Stranger: as me?
You: Yes you
Stranger: or as a manifestation of my ideal society?
Stranger: i wouldn't, no
You: Ok.
You: I have to go now
You: But I want you to think about that for me ok?
You: :)
Stranger: sure
You: It was nice talking to you!
Stranger: nice talking to you too
Stranger: have a good evening man
You: Peace
You have disconnected.