Pleeb and the nature of perception

[21:46] <Fracas> good job
[21:46] <Nick[Skyler]> thanks
[21:46] <&Pleeb> So... who wants to hear cool things about perception?  I have a moment, I can talk about what your eyes are seeing isn't actually what you're really seeing.
[21:47] <Fracas> Go for it
[21:47] <Nick[Skyler]> sure
13[21:47] * Pleeb sets mode: -oa Pleeb Pleeb
[21:47] <+Pleeb> Okay.
[21:47] <Zero-> o it
[21:47] <+Pleeb> So like, your eye cells are highly optimized to look at edges and lines; contrast, that sort of thing.
[21:47] <Zero-> also do
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[21:47] <Fracas> Mhm
[21:47] <Nick[Skyler]> yup
[21:47] <Brohoofed_> hello
[21:47] <Fracas> Hi
[21:48] <Nick[Skyler]> mine are not but they do the job
[21:48] <+Pleeb> But what's interesting, is that they found, your eyes aren't just responding to light.  They had all the cells in the eye get flooded with red light,
[21:48] <Nick[Skyler]> mm
[21:48] <+Pleeb> And instead of the cells sending back information when the light hit them, as most would expect, they actually all just stopped sending information.
[21:48] <Fracas> That's true with any constant uniform light source tho
[21:48] <Fracas> Or lack thereof
[21:48] <+Pleeb> It's why when you cover you eyes with the ping pong balls, everything turns a foggy gray and you start to halucunate.
[21:49] <Nick[Skyler]> wow
[21:49] <Fracas> Ping pong balls aren't good for that tho.
[21:49] <+Pleeb> The thing is, the eye cells are literally only responding to areas where the color changes; lines and edges.
[21:49] <Nick[Skyler]> is this something you could do to help visualisation?
[21:49] <Fracas> yes
[21:49] <Fracas> And yes
[21:49] <+Pleeb> It's not just uniform light over the whole eye, it's uniform light on more than one cell.
[21:49] <+Pleeb> So here's the thing,
[21:49] <+Pleeb> When you're staring at say, a green square on a white background,
[21:50] <+Pleeb> The only cells in your eye that are actually "turned on" are the ones that are looking at the edges of the green and white.
[21:50] <Fracas> Now that is interesting.
[21:50] <+Pleeb> That line, with the border of the square, is the only thing actually sending information to your brain.
[21:50] <Nick[Skyler]> huh
[21:50] <+Pleeb> However, your brain takes an educated guess that what's in the middle, is green (since the edges are green).
[21:50] <Fracas> So your eye just fills in the square based on the edges?
[21:50] <+Pleeb> So it just fills the rest in with green, to your perception.
[21:51] <Fracas> Neat.
[21:51] <Nick[Skyler]> cool
[21:51] <Fracas> Where did you find this out?
[21:51] <+Pleeb> Well, your brain does, yeah.  The eyes itself, the only cells even turned on, and the ones on the edges
[21:51] <Nick[Skyler]> except i don't see in color
[21:51] <Fracas> You're full colorblind?
[21:51] <+Pleeb> I learned it from being psych major ^^;
[21:51] <Fracas> Like bw
[21:51] <Nick[Skyler]> some think i am but i disagree
06[21:51] * +Pleeb is taking neuroscience and perception coureses
[21:52] <Fracas> Pleeb that is fantastic
[21:52] <+Pleeb> Anyways...
[21:52] <+Pleeb> If you think about it, it makes sense.
[21:52] <Nick[Skyler]> yeah
[21:52] <Fracas> Yup
[21:52] <+Pleeb> If your eyes are sending all the information from /everything/ that you see,
[21:52] <+Pleeb> It's a lot of information going to your brain.
[21:52] <+Pleeb> Which is already processing a lot.
[21:52] <Celestial> holy shit, that is some heavy optimization right there
[21:52] <Fracas> ^
[21:53] <Nick[Skyler]> yup
[21:53] <+Pleeb> So your eyes are pretty good at turning some things off.  So as I stare at this IRC client, for instance,
[21:53] <+Pleeb> Which has white text and a black background,
[21:53] <Celestial> so we're basically hallucinating 95% of anything we see at any given time?
[21:53] <+Pleeb> The cells that fall along the black background are simply turned off.
[21:53] <+Pleeb> We are.
[21:53] <+Pleeb> But the thing is, we usually get it right.
[21:53] <Celestial> that is SO awesome
[21:53] <+Pleeb> Except, not alawys.
[21:53] <Fracas> I wouldn't pick that high a number
[21:53] <Fracas> But still fascinating
[21:53] <+Pleeb> It's not that high, but the concept,you know what I mean.
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[21:53] <Fracas> Yeah
[21:54] <+Pleeb> (I guess it depends on what you're looking at)
[21:54] <+Pleeb> But, we did something in class,
[21:54] <Fracas> That's true.
[21:54] <+Pleeb> Had a huge green circle,
[21:54] <+Pleeb> With a red granient in the middle.  It had no defined edges, just sort of bled into the green circle.
[21:54] <+Pleeb> And after staring at it for a moment, the red disappeared.
[21:54] <Fracas> Oh man
[21:54] <Fracas> So your brain overrode the gradient?
[21:54] <+Pleeb> Because your eyes couldn't pick up the edge of the red, and your brain just filled it in with green.
[21:54] <Fracas> Christ
[21:55] <Celestial> oh man I GET IT now, that thing with the black gradient dot
[21:55] <+Pleeb> It's pretty interesting stuff; perception, that is.
[21:55] <Fracas> Absolutely
[21:55] <+Pleeb> And that's just eye itself.
[21:55] <Celestial> holy pogojumping Christ
[21:55] <+Pleeb> I'm not even getting to the primary visual cortex.
[21:55] <Fracas> Thank you for sharing this, damn
[21:55] <+Pleeb> See, after the information leaves your eye, it gets sent to the back of your brain, where your primary visual cortex processess things.
[21:56] <+Pleeb> A huge chunk of your brain is dedicated just to processing vision.
[21:56] <Celestial> no wonder
[21:56] <+Pleeb> And it needs to be; you're not just taking an image of what you see and sending it to you,
[21:56] <+Pleeb> You're doing obect recognition.
[21:56] <+Pleeb> You're doing color recognition.
[21:56] <+Pleeb> You're perceieving depth from a 2d surface, which is very extraordnary.
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[21:57] <Fracas> Especially when things are moving fast
[21:57] <+Pleeb> Take object recognition, for instance.
[21:57] <+Pleeb> When you look at a cup,
[21:57] <+Pleeb> Your brain is actually computing the cup, and sending it to your perception as to what it is.
[21:57] <Fracas> Mhm
[21:57] <+Pleeb> For instance, there was this one person, she had a stroke, and the part of her brain that recognized objects got messed up.
[21:57] <+Pleeb> And when she looked at a cup, she couldn't understand what it was.
[21:57] <+Pleeb> She'd be like, "I see this thing, but I can't percieve it."
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[21:58] <Fracas> That's mildly horrific
[21:58] <+Pleeb> You ask her to draw it, she'd draw a high resolution image of the cup.
[21:58] <+Pleeb> She could see it perfectly, she just couldn't recognize what it was.
[21:58] <+Pleeb> However, if you told her, "Pour yourself a cup of tea."
[21:58] <+Pleeb> She would reach out, pour the cup of tea, and reach out by the handle, and drink from it.
[21:58] <+Pleeb> Because the part of her brain that computed "reaching for an object" wasn't damaged.
[21:58] <Fracas> But not realize why she chose to pour into the cup?
[21:58] <+Pleeb> Even know the part that computer "seeing the object" was.
[21:58] <Celestial> so basically she was just cut out from the recognition center, even if it was still functioning
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[21:59] <Fracas> Sounds like it
[21:59] <+Pleeb> Yeah...  It's pretty interesting.
[21:59] <Fracas> Indeed.
[21:59] <+Pleeb> The brain goes through a lot to recognize an object.
[21:59] <Celestial> by ye gods it is
[21:59] <+Pleeb> Say I hold up a cell phone, and you recognize it as a cell phone.
[21:59] <+Pleeb> Say I hold up the cellphone later, from a different angel.
[21:59] <+Pleeb> You know what it is.
[21:59] <Fracas> heh
[21:59] <+Pleeb> Yet, you've never seen that angle before.
[21:59] <Fracas> But your brain creates it
[22:00] <+Pleeb> Because your brain has a way of storing a 3d represntation of it, yeah.p
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[22:00] <+Pleeb> They have a pretty good idea how it probably works.  It seems that there are these template components in the brain, and it pretty much constructs the object based on its components.
[22:00] <+Pleeb> As well, it's storing in memory every angle of the object you ever see.
[22:00] <Celestial> oh yeah, we surely visualize a lot more than we think we do
[22:00] <+Pleeb> So it can make its best educated guess.
[22:01] <+Pleeb> But then, there's something else.  Faces.
[22:01] <Fracas> Ah
[22:01] <+Pleeb> When someone sees a car go by,
[22:01] <+Pleeb> They think, "Car"
[22:01] <+Pleeb> People identify houses, even different types, as "house"
[22:01] <+Pleeb> When you see a face, you don't do that.
[22:01] <Fracas> But with a face they pair it to a specific person, right? Rather than "human"
[22:01] <+Pleeb> You don't think, "Person"
[22:01] <+Pleeb> Mhm.
[22:01] <+Pleeb> You think "so-and-so"
[22:01] <+Pleeb> Meanwhile, you see faces in everything.
[22:01] <Celestial> any artist can tell you that faces can dramatically by the smallest details
[22:02] <+Pleeb> You can see a basket of fruit that looks like a face.
[22:02] <Celestial> dramatically change*
06[22:02] * +Pleeb nods
[22:02] <Celestial> face recognition is very, very heavy and dense
[22:02] <+Pleeb> http://static5.depositphotos.com/1003736/470/i/950/depositphotos_4709588-Fruit-Face.jpg for instance
[22:02] <+Pleeb> A lot of times, you might end up seeing "face" before you see "banana, grapes, oranges, and pair"
[22:02] <Fracas> Funny how we do that, yeah
[22:02] <+Pleeb> If you identified faces the same way you'd identify other objects,
[22:02] <+Pleeb> This wouldn't be happening.
[22:03] <+Pleeb> You would be seeing that by its components, not by the structure of a face.
[22:03] <Fracas> I guess we have to see it as a face though, since we rely so much on facial recognition
[22:03] <+Pleeb> I'm trying to find this one image, it really shows something quite interesting with recognizing faces.
[22:04] <+Pleeb> Uploading images now.
[22:05] <Fracas> Sweet, thanks.
[22:06] <+Pleeb> https://i.imgur.com/9t3kkyc.png
[22:06] <+Pleeb> Who here doesn't see a face in there?
[22:06] <+Pleeb> It kind of jumps right out at me.
[22:06] <Brohoofed_> everyone does
[22:06] <Brohoofed_> i think
[22:06] <Fracas> Yeah
[22:07] <Fracas> Well, not everyone
[22:07] <+Pleeb> Some people don't, and there's a reason why.
[22:07] <Brohoofed_> it's a phenomenom
[22:07] <+Pleeb> But most people do.
[22:07] <+Pleeb> But the thing is,
[22:07] <+Pleeb> A computer will have a very hard time recognizing a face, in htat.
[22:07] <+Pleeb> It's just some brances.
[22:07] <Nick[Skyler]> why is this
[22:07] <Fracas> a computer doesn't necessarily have the models a brain does
[22:07] <Brohoofed_> i think there's a name for that
[22:07] <+Pleeb> https://i.imgur.com/BqPeZTD.png
[22:07] <+Pleeb> There's two more examples.
[22:07] <Celestial> ofc there's a name for that, they have a name for everythjng
[22:07] <+Pleeb> You see a face, with these images.
[22:08] <+Pleeb> But take a look behind the 'face' and their' just fruits, or animals.
[22:08] <Fracas> Yup
[22:08] <Nick[Skyler]> so where are we going with this information?
[22:08] <+Pleeb> It's because your brain seems to be processing faces differently than other objects.
[22:08] <Brohoofed_> is there a name for your mouth burning slightly after eating any food?
[22:08] <Brohoofed_> i think there is
[22:08] <Brohoofed_> i have it
[22:08] <Fracas> I bet a computer wouldn't have as much of a problem if it had millions of reference images as well
[22:08] <Brohoofed_> it's annoyinh
[22:08] <Fracas> Which some do
[22:09] <+Pleeb> That's the thing.  When you identify a face, it really seems like you're percieving the entire face as a whole.
[22:09] <+Pleeb> And this is what they found.
[22:09] <+Pleeb> There are neurons in your brain that, they only respond when something is in your visual field; certain objects.
[22:09] <Fracas> That makes sense.
[22:09] <Nick[Skyler]> yup
[22:10] <+Pleeb> For instance, there's neurons that would only fire when there's a body (even headless body) in your visual field.
[22:10] <Fracas> Mhm
[22:10] <Nick[Skyler]> ok
[22:10] <+Pleeb> There are others that respond to a hand, or to some other objects,
[22:10] <Celestial> that sounds obvious
[22:10] <+Pleeb> And then, they found some that respond to faces.
[22:10] <+Pleeb> But not just some,
[22:10] <Fracas> A ton
[22:10] <Fracas> ?
[22:10] <+Pleeb> There seems to be an entire section of your brain dedicated to processing faces.
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[22:10] <Fracas> That's a lot then.
[22:10] <Fracas> Welp
[22:10] <+Pleeb> It's called the fusiform face area.
[22:10] <Celestial> oh yeah, face recognition is a very big deal
[22:10] <+Pleeb> Also known as the FFA.
[22:10] <+Pleeb> And here's what's interesting.
[22:10] <Nick[Skyler]> why wouldn't there be, it makes sense given our social nature
[22:10] <Fracas> Indeed
[22:11] <+Pleeb> If there's someone who has damage to their FFA,
[22:11] <+Pleeb> They will not be able to percieve faces,
[22:11] <Nick[Skyler]> wonder what that would be like
[22:11] <Fracas> As expected I guess. Still sucks tho
[22:11] <+Pleeb> And while they could see things, incrluding faces, fine, they can't percieve them.
[22:11] <+Pleeb> So they won't be able to tell the difference between their own children.
[22:11] <Nick[Skyler]> like me :)
[22:11] <+Pleeb> (unless they're judging by other charactistits, e.g. hight, clothes, etc)
[22:11] <Nick[Skyler]> kidding
[22:12] <+Pleeb> There are actually people who don't even realize it, either.p
[22:12] <Fracas> Or the difference between their spouses face and a stranger. But they can use other cues, yeah
[22:12] <Celestial> ever read "The Man who mistook his wife for a hat"?
[22:12] <+Pleeb> I have not.
[22:12] <+Pleeb> But, for instance,
[22:12] <Celestial> it's a very enlightening series of stories of psychological problems
[22:12] <+Pleeb> Say there's a person who has always had trouble with remembering names.
[22:12] <Nick[Skyler]> heh like me
[22:12] <+Pleeb> Ended up finding out that his FFA was underdevolped.
[22:13] <Fracas> Hm
[22:13] <Brohoofed_> this is too science for me
[22:13] <Celestial> >in _subc
[22:13] <Nick[Skyler]> never tested for it, wouldn't be surprised though
[22:13] <Celestial> >complaining about too much science
[22:13] <Fracas> Take it slow, it'll be ok
[22:13] <+Pleeb> Hey, this is my home room!
[22:13] <Brohoofed_> but i'm stupid.
[22:13] <Fracas> Hahaha
[22:13] <+Pleeb> You'll totally find me ranting in here often.
[22:13] <Fracas> Good
[22:13] <Fracas> I like this a lot.
[22:13] <Nick[Skyler]> yup
[22:14] <+Pleeb> So, now the question is,
[22:14] <+Pleeb> Why does the FFA work like that?
[22:14] <Fracas> Because we tie names to faces
[22:14] <Celestial> why as in, why the focus on faces?
[22:14] <Fracas> So if you lost one part the other would be affected
[22:14] <+Pleeb> Well,
[22:14] <+Pleeb> People need to recognize faces.
[22:14] <+Pleeb> It's pretty important.
[22:14] <+Pleeb> you determine person, even species, by face.
[22:14] <Celestial> ok, so we're cleat on that
[22:15] <Celestial> clear*
[22:15] <+Pleeb> (with othe animals, for instance, etc)
[22:15] <Fracas> Yes
[22:15] <Nick[Skyler]> uh huh
[22:15] <+Pleeb> The thing is, we've became experts at identifying faces.
[22:15] <+Pleeb> So we're not just identiying them by components, we're trained to pick them out from everything.
[22:15] <Fracas> Yup
[22:15] <+Pleeb> So they did this expariment, to find out a bit more about this.
[22:15] <Fracas> Oh boy
[22:15] <+Pleeb> Because, consider people who are bird watchers.
[22:16] <Fracas> Facial recognition of birds(?)
[22:16] <+Pleeb> These people are actually experts at identifying birds,
[22:16] <+Pleeb> And when they see a bird,
[22:16] <+Pleeb> They don't just think, "bird"
[22:16] <Fracas> heh
[22:16] <+Pleeb> They are able to distingush small characteristics between the birds.
[22:16] <Brohoofed_> you make a point
[22:16] <Celestial> can you imagine though, there guys shouting BIRD and taking a photo as fast as they can to the fleeing avian
[22:16] <+Pleeb> So they did this expariment.  They created a novel class of objects called "greebles"
[22:17] <Fracas> Once again, makes sense. Still interesting to hear about though.
[22:17] <Nick[Skyler]> so what about someone who is visually impaired, would the FFA be under developed slightly?
[22:17] <+Pleeb> They look like this: http://www.psy.vanderbilt.edu/faculty/gauthier/FoG/4Greebs.jpg
[22:17] <Celestial> use or lose it Nick
[22:17] <Nick[Skyler]> hmm
[22:17] <+Pleeb> Oh, I have some neat things to say about vision and devolpmeent,
[22:17] <+Pleeb> I'll get to that in a sec, if you'd like.
[22:17] <Nick[Skyler]> pleas do
[22:17] <+Pleeb> But,
[22:17] <Fracas> Finish with the greebles first
[22:17] <Nick[Skyler]> yes
[22:18] <+Pleeb> They pretty much trained people for months to become 'experts' in identifying greebles.
[22:18] <Celestial> well, intelligence itself is the ability to differentiate
[22:18] <+Pleeb> So first, they did a brain scan on the people before they took up this training,
[22:18] <Celestial> so most likely when you take on a subject you learn to identify its nuances
[22:19] <Nick[Skyler]> good before and after
[22:19] <+Pleeb> And scanned what was lighting up when they were identiying faces, and identifying greebles.
[22:19] <+Pleeb> Before, with faces, the FFA lit up.
[22:19] <+Pleeb> Before, with greebles, nothing much was lighting up.
[22:19] <+Pleeb> After, with faces, FFA still lit up,
[22:19] <+Pleeb> After, with greebles, FFA /also/ lit up.
[22:19] <Nick[Skyler]> interesting
[22:19] <Celestial> aah, so the FFA is just a "I'm scanning for this" pattern that can be borrowed for different types of things?
[22:20] <+Pleeb> I got a pic, one sec.
[22:20] <Nick[Skyler]> so when you visualise your tulpa's face does the ffa light up?
[22:20] <Celestial> it sounds like a logical conclusion
[22:20] <+Pleeb> https://i.imgur.com/PUK7GF1.png
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[22:20] <Celestial> the brain does not differentiate between imagining and seeing
[22:20] <+Pleeb> Nick: I"d like to find that out.
[22:20] <+Pleeb> And yeah, it doesn't seem to differentiate.
[22:20] <Fracas> Nick, I think it's just for large classes, but perhaps
[22:21] <+Pleeb> Pick any memory you have from when you were doing something in wonderland, even if it was in your mind's eye.
[22:21] <Fracas> Like a general species versus one particular unique face
[22:21] <+Pleeb> It will come up in your memories as it was just as happening like if you were there outside your mind's eye.
[22:21] <Nick[Skyler]> hmm
[22:21] <+Pleeb> And I can get into that later, too, esp with things like switching and lucid dreams, and learning a skill, devolping things, and what not.
[22:22] <+Pleeb> I know a tulpa who trained to fight, did martial arts, and all this other stuff, in the wonderland,
[22:22] <+Pleeb> Then switched wiht the host, and sparred me in a fight (we met up IRL),
[22:22] <+Pleeb> And the tulpa kicked my ass.
[22:22] <Celestial> fuck yea
[22:22] <+Pleeb> While the host wasn't a very good fighter.
[22:22] <Nick[Skyler]> wow
[22:22] <Celestial> oh yeah, I've heard of tennis players training their technique in Lucid dreams
[22:22] <JDBar> That's how I get better at gloving. I practice in my head more than I practice more in real life.
[22:22] <+Pleeb> It works, too, and there have been stuides about that.
[22:22] <Fracas> I guess that makes sense, even if I don't want it to.
[22:23] <Celestial> also, that's what Micheal Jordan did
[22:23] <Nick[Skyler]> wow
[22:23] <Celestial> before each match he would visualize what he'd fo
[22:23] <Celestial> do*
[22:23] <+Pleeb> I can explain why it makes sense, if you want.
[22:23] <Fracas> That would be nice.
[22:23] <Nick[Skyler]> yeah
[22:23] <+Pleeb> There's a few parts of training your body for something.
[22:23] <+Pleeb> Mind and body.
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[22:23] <JDBar> Also is tulpa.info down? MySQL error?
[22:23] <+Pleeb> Take muscles mass vs usable strength.
[22:23] <Fracas> For now it is
[22:23] <Fracas> And ok
[22:24] <Celestial> muscle memory is just that, a memory, so if you train that memory by other means you can still use it for physical acts
[22:24] <+Pleeb> You can have really big muscles, but not be very 'strong'
[22:24] <+Pleeb> That is, there could be someone with bigger muscles, and lose arm wresting to someone with smaller muscles.
[22:24] <Nick[Skyler]> hmm
[22:24] <+Pleeb> And you can read this on every fitness blog discussing body lifting.
[22:24] <Nick[Skyler]> wow
[22:24] <+Pleeb> And how to train for mass vs strength, and all that.
[22:24] <Fracas> Yup
[22:24] <Nick[Skyler]> interesting
[22:25] <+Pleeb> But, the usuable strength, is your ability to mentally contract those muscles.
[22:25] <Fracas> heh
[22:25] <+Pleeb> That is, your brain's ability to utilize them.
[22:25] <+Pleeb> And a lot of it is mental.
[22:25] <Nick[Skyler]> hmmm
[22:25] <+Pleeb> So here's the thing.
[22:25] <Fracas> And because it's mental, the mental landscape of a wonderland can be used to train it(?)
[22:25] <+Pleeb> When you're say, training to fight.
[22:26] <+Pleeb> When you're doing a drill, you're building up your muscles, and your body's ability to do those drills,
[22:26] <+Pleeb> But you're also forming the connections in your brain to do it.
[22:26] <+Pleeb> When you're, say, in a lucid dream,
[22:26] <+Pleeb> Your brain is active.  It's functioning in a smiliar state as if you were awake.
[22:26] <+Pleeb> As far as your conscious awareness goes.
[22:27] <+Pleeb> And it's because once you go lucid, the parts of your brain that handle that sorto f thing, for lack of a better term, "come online"
[22:27] <Fracas> I've always been intrigued by lucid dreaming, even more so now.
[22:27] <+Pleeb> It's why the moment you become lucid, you end up having your memory back of the waking world, and whatnot.
[22:27] <+Pleeb> I went to an academic confrence a few years ago, someone was doing a presentation on lucid dreaming.
[22:27] <+Pleeb> It was very interesting.
[22:28] <+Pleeb> Anyways,
[22:28] <Celestial> I bet it was
[22:28] <Fracas> I'll bet
[22:28] <Nick[Skyler]> never tried lucid dreaming
[22:28] <Celestial> you're missing out Nick
[22:28] <+Pleeb> When you're lucid dreaming, and you're practcing, say, doing a drill,
[22:28] <Fracas> Perhaps you should attempt to get into it
[22:28] <+Pleeb> You end up still forming those same connectionsi n the brain that you would have if you did it while awake.
[22:28] <+Pleeb> So yeah, you can totally practice things in a lucid dream.
[22:29] <+Pleeb> But, here's the thing.
[22:29] <+Pleeb> When you're doing that, you're practicing from a mental standpoint.
[22:29] <+Pleeb> What about your physcial body's tolerance?
[22:29] <Fracas> heh.
[22:29] <+Pleeb> When I sparred this tulpa, who was switched, the host's body couldn't hold out very long.
[22:29] <Celestial> that one's plenty larger than we give it credit for, so no biggie
[22:29] <+Pleeb> And I actually tried it with Chess, she's sparred a friend of mine using the body before.
[22:29] <Fracas> Makes sense.
[22:29] <+Pleeb> And while she was able to just keep going and going and going,
[22:29] <+Pleeb> The body was overheating.
[22:29] <+Pleeb> Like, literally overheating.
[22:29] <Fracas> shit son
[22:29] <Nick[Skyler]> wow
[22:30] <Fracas> Sucks
[22:30] <+Pleeb> So, let's talk about that primary visual cortex!
[22:30] <Fracas> Yes, let's
[22:30] <Nick[Skyler]> slightly off topic, pleeb how many wpm can you type?
[22:30] <+Pleeb> Uhh....
[22:30] <+Pleeb> 100+, last time I checked.
[22:31] <Fracas> Nice.
[22:31] <+Pleeb> My job is transcribing interviews.
[22:31] <+Pleeb> For a sociology professor.
[22:31] <Fracas> Well then that makes sense
[22:31] <Celestial> hah
[22:31] <Nick[Skyler]> yeah
[22:31] <Celestial> dvorak or qwerty?
[22:31] <+Pleeb> Dvorak.
[22:31] <Celestial> masterrace
[22:31] <+Pleeb> x3
[22:31] <+Pleeb> But yeah, back to sight,
[22:31] <Nick[Skyler]> yes
[22:31] <+Pleeb> Images come in your eyes, and fall on your retaina.
[22:32] <+Pleeb> It's a literal image.
[22:32] <Fracas> Mhm
[22:32] <+Pleeb> As well as other things, such as color and light information, is recorded.
[22:32] <+Pleeb> (color recognition is a very amazing concept, esp color constancy and light constancy)
[22:32] <+Pleeb> (but I don't have nearly enough time to discuss it)
[22:32] <Fracas> :P
[22:32] <Celestial> first time I saw that chessboard with the deceiving greys, it blew my mind
[22:33] <+Pleeb> That information is sent to the back of your brain, through different neural connections.
[22:33] <+Pleeb> Yeah, the chessobard with decieveing greys; that's light constancy.
[22:33] <+Pleeb> But anyways
[22:33] <+Pleeb> It actually keeps the left and the right eye seperated.
[22:33] <+Pleeb> At least through most of the data processing.
[22:33] <+Pleeb> Like, the left and right eye, they go to oppisite sides of the brain.
[22:33] <Fracas> That makes sense, actually.
[22:34] <Celestial> it needs to since 3D comes likely after obj recognition and all that
[22:34] <+Pleeb> And even when they run through your primary visual cortex, they're still seperate.
[22:34] <+Pleeb> Yeah, they get handled later, for depth perception... which is another mindblowing subject, which I can't get into right now ;_;
[22:34] <+Pleeb> But, as far as when they develope,
[22:34] <Celestial> that's ok, you're being plenty awesome for today
[22:34] <Fracas> Perhaps another time, I'd absolutely be willing to listen.
[22:34] <+Pleeb> Regarding imparents,
[22:34] <+Pleeb> imparaments*
[22:35] <+Pleeb> However the heck you spell it
[22:35] <+Pleeb> (sorry, dysgrapic ^^;)
[22:35] <Fracas> impairment
[22:35] <+Pleeb> Yeah, that's it.
[22:35] <Celestial> imapirments
[22:35] <Celestial> FUUU
[22:35] <Nick[Skyler]> yes?
[22:35] <+Pleeb> As far as the % of your cortext that utilizes left and right eyes,
[22:35] <+Pleeb> They found that it's 50% of your visual cortex processess the left eye, and 50% processess the right.
[22:36] <+Pleeb> Makes sense, right?
[22:36] <Fracas> Sure
[22:36] <Nick[Skyler]> yeah
[22:36] <Reguile> discussion?
[22:36] <Celestial> I suppose a lazy eye happens when THAT doesn't happen
[22:36] <+Pleeb> Have you guys ever heard of lazyeye?
[22:36] <+Pleeb> Ah, yeah.
[22:36] <Celestial> HAH
[22:36] <Fracas> lol
[22:36] <+Pleeb> My mother has it.
[22:36] <Nick[Skyler]> yeah
[22:36] <Fracas> My father has that
[22:36] <+Pleeb> Her eye drifts over.
[22:36] <Nick[Skyler]> yup
[22:36] <Reguile> that has to do with weak eye muscles doesn't it?
[22:36] <+Pleeb> People attribute it to a weak eye muscle, but that's not why.
[22:37] <Celestial> pfft, it has to do with the dominace of info from one eye
[22:37] <Nick[Skyler]> really?
[22:37] <+Pleeb> It's because, for some reason, your brain decides it's going to pay more attention to one eye then the other.
[22:37] <+Pleeb> When your brain is devolping,
[22:37] <Celestial> since otherwise you'd be straing to keep them functioning equally
[22:37] <Celestial> straning*
[22:37] <+Pleeb> It builds all of these complex networks.
[22:37] <Fracas> So the eye isn't "lazy", but rather neglected
[22:37] <+Pleeb> In this case, it might be that your left eye is being utilized more than the right.
[22:37] <Celestial> yep
[22:37] <Fracas> huh
[22:37] <Nick[Skyler]> poor lazy eye
[22:37] <+Pleeb> They did this expairement with kittens,
[22:38] <+Pleeb> They pretty much raised the kitten in complete darkness, so their eyes would never see anything.
[22:38] <Nick[Skyler]> that sucks
[22:38] <+Pleeb> When the kitten was an adult, they checked its primary visaul cortex, and it was empty.
[22:38] <Fracas> Only for the kitters
[22:38] <+Pleeb> There were no networks devopled in the brain.
[22:38] <+Pleeb> For the eyes, at least.
[22:38] <Nick[Skyler]> wow
[22:38] <+Pleeb> No 50% left and 50% right, or any of that.
[22:38] <+Pleeb> So then, they tried another expariment,
[22:38] <Fracas> So the eyes functioned, but were ignored by the brain?
[22:39] <+Pleeb> They had a kitten raised with only their left eye working.
[22:39] <Nick[Skyler]> ^
[22:39] <+Pleeb> Mhm.
[22:39] <Fracas> Am I understanding that correctly?
[22:39] <+Pleeb> Yes.
[22:39] <Fracas> Ok
[22:39] <+Pleeb> For the only left eye working,
[22:39] <Celestial> when you don't have the patterns you don't recognize things
[22:39] <Celestial> it's like the difference from a reader and a writer
[22:39] <+Pleeb> I think they actually sewed the kitten's right eye shut.
[22:39] <+Pleeb> Anyway, they found, when the kitten was an adult,
[22:39] <Fracas> Welp
[22:39] <Celestial> a writer sees all the little things, the style, the organization, a reader just immerses in the prose
[22:40] <Nick[Skyler]> 100% left?
[22:40] <+Pleeb> The primary visaul cortex was 100% utilizing the left eye.
[22:40] <Nick[Skyler]> yes!
[22:40] <+Pleeb> Indeed!
[22:40] <+Pleeb> So you can pretty much figure out how lazy eye work.s
[22:40] <Celestial> eeyup
[22:40] <Nick[Skyler]> yeah that's interesting
[22:40] <+Pleeb> And it's actually why they use that eye patch when a kid has lazy eye.
[22:40] <Fracas> That's awesome.
[22:40] <Nick[Skyler]> that makes sense
[22:40] <Celestial> it forces the other eye to be used, yeah
[22:40] <+Pleeb> Because if they cover up their 'good' eye with the eye pactch, the brain will compensate by adding more from the bad eye to the neural networks.
[22:41] <+Pleeb> Getting them more equalized.
[22:41] <Nick[Skyler]> how long does this take?
[22:41] <+Pleeb> Oh, I don't know.
[22:41] <Celestial> took a few weeks for me
[22:41] <Nick[Skyler]> oh well
[22:41] <+Pleeb> It's like I said this morinng.
[22:41] <+Pleeb> Your brain is pretty plastic.
[22:41] <Celestial> when I was about....10?
[22:41] <+Pleeb> Esp when it's first devolping
[22:41] <+Pleeb> (when you're a kid)
[22:42] <+Pleeb> Yeah.
[22:42] <+Pleeb> It's making tons and tons of networks, forming connections like there's no tomorrow.
[22:42] <+Pleeb> Does that 'till you're like, 25 or something.
[22:42] <Nick[Skyler]> so how plastic is it at age 16
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[22:42] <+Pleeb> You know, I might acutally be able to answer that.
[22:42] <+Pleeb> Give me a moment, I might have written it down.
[22:42] <Celestial> it keeps being very plastic until 25, statistically
[22:42] <Celestial> or at least IIRC
[22:42] <+Pleeb> There's actually a point where your brain starts killing off a ton of connections because it doesn't need them anymore.
[22:43] <Celestial> the pruning phase, yeah, I forgot where that one is
[22:43] <+Pleeb> Yeah.
[22:43] <Nick[Skyler]> what does it get rid of?
[22:43] <+Pleeb> Less efficient connections.
[22:43] <+Pleeb> Basically, when you're a kid,
[22:43] <+Pleeb> You have /a lot/ more connections in your brain,
[22:44] <+Pleeb> But they're not as efficent.
[22:44] <+Pleeb> As you age, it's making new connections and stuff, and evolving them into becoming more efficent.
[22:44] <Celestial> erryone is a bootlegger ;p
[22:44] <Fracas> hue
[22:44] <Nick[Skyler]> so for things like motor control, its constantly upgrading those connections?
[22:45] <Celestial> using their code to develop better code, so ofc you get to discard the old one at some point
[22:45] <Nick[Skyler]> ok
[22:45] <+Pleeb> Heh, I actually have a neat video that explains this stuff pretty well, for those who are interested.
[22:45] <+Pleeb> Just don't pass it out.
[22:45] <Fracas> Ok
[22:45] <+Pleeb> (because it's from one of my neuroscience courses)
[22:45] <Celestial> oh? how come? part of an ongoing project?
[22:45] <Celestial> ah
[22:46] <+Pleeb> http://media.pearsoncmg.com/ph/hss/SSA_SHARED_MEDIA_1/mypsychlab/videoseries/E03_S04.html
[22:46] <Fracas> lol
[22:46] <+Pleeb> Save the link, since it's like, 7 minutes.
[22:46] <+Pleeb> (I'm almost done ^^;)
[22:46] <Celestial> online classes?
[22:46] <Fracas> Awesome, thanks
[22:46] <+Pleeb> Nah.
[22:46] <+Pleeb> Not online,
[22:46] <+Pleeb> Just a resource the professor sent out.
[22:46] <Celestial> radical
[22:46] <+Pleeb> Anyways,
[22:46] <+Pleeb> Here's something neat.
[22:47] <+Pleeb> There's something called blindsight.
[22:47] <+Pleeb> Basically, consider how everything gets processed in the primary visual cortex.
[22:47] <Celestial> inb4 D&D
[22:47] <+Pleeb> Say someone has a stroke, and the primary visual cortex is damaged beyond repair.
[22:47] <+Pleeb> So your eyes are working fine,
[22:47] <+Pleeb> But they're just sending the information into your brain,
[22:47] <+Pleeb> But the visual cortex simply doesn't work anymore.
[22:47] <+Pleeb> Even know these people have eyes that can see, they're blind.
[22:48] <+Pleeb> You ask them what they see, they answer that they see nothing.
[22:48] <Celestial> it's like reading a text in an foreign language, hah
[22:48] <+Pleeb> Because, well... the part of your brain that actually processess sight dosen't work.
[22:48] <Celestial> you don't have the tools to interpret what you have
[22:48] <+Pleeb> It's like if  their eyes were closed.
[22:48] <+Pleeb> They are blind.
[22:48] <+Pleeb> But here's what's interesting.
[22:49] <+Pleeb> Psycholgist found that, even know these people can't see anything, the information was still going into their brain... So there was an expariment done.
[22:49] <+Pleeb> They got someone who had a non-working primary visual cortex.
[22:49] <+Pleeb> And they told them, "We're going to sit you down in front of a screen, and an object is going to go across the screen.  We want you to tell us which direction the object is going."
[22:49] <+Pleeb> Their anwser was,
[22:49] <+Pleeb> "I won't be able to.  I'm blind."
[22:49] <+Pleeb> So the researchers said, "Then just take a wild guess."
[22:50] <+Pleeb> And they're like, "Yeah, sure."
[22:50] <Fracas> I think I see where this is going.
[22:50] <+Pleeb> Well, the person would be like, "Eh, I'm guessing left."
[22:50] <+Pleeb> Haviung no idea which way, just taking a wild guess, since, you know, he didn't see anything....
[22:50] <+Pleeb> ....and about 80% of the time, he was correct.
[22:50] <+Pleeb> On the direction, and the color, even.
[22:50] <Norkkom> hmm
[22:50] <Celestial> did they get things like eyes tracking subconsciously the object?
[22:50] <+Pleeb> Somehow, the information is getting into their subconscious.
[22:50] <+Pleeb> They're not consciously aware of it, but it's in there.
[22:50] <Norkkom> That doesn't seem like it should be possible of course, did they figure out why?
[22:51] <+Pleeb> They even had people who had blindsight navigate obstical courses.
[22:51] <+Pleeb> They would justn have a 'feeling' that there might be something in front of them.
[22:51] <+Pleeb> So they'd move, and happen to be right.
[22:51] <+Pleeb> They even exposed the person to a very scary/threatening face,
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[22:51] <Celestial> Norkkom: I feel it's because the conscious is really a small part of the whole, and just because something doesn't reach it it doesn't mean it's not there
[22:51] <+Pleeb> And the person started feeling scared, and had no idea why.
[22:52] <Norkkom> You're probably right.
[22:52] <Norkkom> Food for thought
[22:52] <+Pleeb> Because he wasn't consciously aware of it, but the information somehow made it into the subconscious.
[22:52] <Celestial> yep
[22:52] <+Pleeb> You have a lot of things that don't work with the consciousness.
[22:52] <+Pleeb> Most things with perception, actually.
13[22:52] * ChanServ sets mode: +v Nobillis
[22:52] <Celestial> it's like being hit with a hammer that you didn't see, you're gonna feel the pain but know not of the hammer
[22:52] <+Pleeb> Here's something interesting.
[22:52] <+Pleeb> And, actually,
[22:52] <Norkkom> Interesting analogy.
[22:52] <Norkkom> But yeah
[22:52] <+Pleeb> Who was here when I was talking about images falling on your retainas?
[22:53] <+Pleeb> With size?
[22:53] <+Pleeb> Size constancy, specifically.
[22:53] <Norkkom> I wasn't but I might have the logs
[22:53] <Celestial> I want those logs FYI
[22:53] <+Pleeb> Meh, I'll just say it again.
[22:53] <+Pleeb> Since there's some background already discussed, it'll be easier for me to explain this time around.
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[22:53] <Norkkom> mkay
[22:53] <Norkkom> Also hello Moose.
[22:53] <Nick[Skyler]> pleeb thank you for the video it was very interesting indeed.
[22:53] <+Pleeb> When you look at the world around you,
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[22:54] <+Pleeb> Nick: Glad you thought so, it is pretty cool.
[22:54] <+Pleeb> You know how an image of the world around you is burned on your retina?
[22:54] <Nick[Skyler]> yeah
[22:54] <+Pleeb> Like, you literally have cells where the image itself is saved on these cells.
[22:54] <Norkkom> Sure.
[22:55] <+Pleeb> (which later actually get stored on an array in your brain)
[22:55] <+Pleeb> (it's how those glasses for blind people work; it renders an image on that array)
[22:55] <+Pleeb> Anyways....
[22:55] <Nick[Skyler]> cool
[22:55] <+Pleeb> Say there's someone standing 10ft away from you.
[22:55] <Celestial> that's how you get those color trick images work, right? by first impressing color on the retinas
[22:55] <+Pleeb> That person is leaving an image on your retina.
[22:55] <+Pleeb> Celestial: Exactly.
[22:56] <+Pleeb> And actually, there's something really neat with that... but first,
[22:56] <+Pleeb> What happens if this person that's 10ft away from you walks towards you, and is now 5ft away from you?
[22:56] <+Pleeb> The image of this person on your retina is now twice the size as he was before.
[22:56] <+Pleeb> Since he's half as close as he was before.
[22:56] <Nick[Skyler]> ok
[22:56] <+Pleeb> (you know, since things further away become bigger when they get closer to you)
[22:57] <Norkkom> lol yes
[22:57] <+Pleeb> But... this person isn't doubling in size, when this happens.
[22:57] <Norkkom> Mhm.
[22:57] <+Pleeb> He /should/, since he doubles in size on your retina, but not in the real world.  He doesn't suddenly become a giant.
[22:57] <+Pleeb> It's because your brain takes that object "person" and resizes it for your perception.
[22:57] <Nick[Skyler]> ok?
[22:57] <Celestial> aaah, the three people of the same graphical size on the sidewalk, an oldie but a goodie
[22:57] <+Nobillis> you are only increasing the number of cells by 4 times from before
[22:57] <Nick[Skyler]> where are you going with this?
[22:58] <MQQSE> I... I didn't get an interesting video...
[22:58] <MQQSE> ;-;
13[22:58] * ChanServ sets mode: +o MQQSE
[22:58] <+Pleeb> MQQSE: you'll have to get the pastebin, I've been covering some really neat things the past hour.
[22:58] <Celestial> IT'S WRITTEN HERE, CLEAR AS CRYSTAL, YOU GET NOTHING, GOOD DAY SIR
[22:58] <+Pleeb> I'm almost done, though.
[22:59] <+Pleeb> Basically, the way your brain does this,
[22:59] <+Pleeb> Is that it calculates how far away the object is from you.
[22:59] <Nick[Skyler]> mqqse here it is http://media.pearsoncmg.com/ph/hss/SSA_SHARED_MEDIA_1/mypsychlab/videoseries/E03_S04.html
[22:59] <+Pleeb> And shrinks/grows the object, depending on the distance it thinks teh object is.
[22:59] <+Pleeb> Your brain is really good at calculating distance, since you have two eyes, and depth perception abilities.
[23:00] <Fracas> yup
[23:00] <+Nobillis> Based on stereoscopy for two eyes, or focus distance for one eye (to calculate size)
[23:00] <+Pleeb> Have you guys ever seen those rooms with forced perspective, where the people seem to get bigger and smaller?
[23:00] <Celestial> and from that obv comes all the good tricks of making them look at something weird with one eye only, or in photos
[23:00] <+Pleeb> Mhm, exactly, Celestial.
[23:00] <Celestial> oh yeah, the forced perspective rooms are THE BEST
[23:01] <Celestial> they're genuinely spooky when people get creative with them
[23:01] <Nick[Skyler]> oh god
[23:01] <Fracas> lol
[23:01] <+Pleeb> It's because if you take one eye out, you no longer have depth.  And then if you shape things a certain way to fool your brain into thinking the room is a certain shape when it's not,
[23:01] <+Pleeb> You literally see people growing and shrinking.
[23:01] <+Pleeb> Looking for a video.
[23:02] <+Nobillis> The scene in the original Willie Wonka movie where they go down the hallway to the candy room (little tiny door with musical lock)
[23:02] <+Pleeb> Nobillis: That's actually a good example.
[23:03] <Celestial> or in Alice in Wonderland, when she looks at a long corridor that it's just a shrinking one with a tiny door at the end
[23:03] <+Pleeb> Where i was getting to, with all of this,
[23:03] <Fracas> Oh yeah
[23:04] <Celestial>  Who was here when I was talking about images falling on your retainas?
[23:04] <Celestial> <+Pleeb> With size?
[23:04] <Celestial> <+Pleeb> Size constancy, specifically.
[23:04] <+Pleeb> You can even know for a fact about the size difference, and what your perception is doing.
[23:04] <Celestial> something about this?
[23:04] <+Pleeb> For instance, consider this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahcglOeNyoU
[23:04] <Reguile> depth is really kind of a funny thing, and it's something I never really noticed untill I spent a few hours just kind of looking back and forth between one and two eyes
[23:05] <+Pleeb> If your consciousness played a bigger role, you would be consciously aware that these people are not really that size, and you would be aware of how it works with the forced perspective,
[23:05] <+Pleeb> And then the illusion would be broken.
[23:05] <+Pleeb> But even when you see them shift sizes, your perception is still imposing that size on your consciousness.
[23:05] <Nick[Skyler]> so how does any of this relate to tulpa? or is it required to?
[23:06] <+Pleeb> Nick: Well, it's perception in general; it falls more under the 'mind-related' than 'advanced tulpa' at the moment.
[23:06] <Reguile> i'd say tulpa have a lot to do with this sort of stuff
[23:06] <+Pleeb> Though I think perception is pretty vital to a lot of this.
[23:06] <+Pleeb> I keep getting ninja'd.
[23:06] <Fracas> Regardless of whether it's tulpa related it's a good discussion to have.
[23:06] <Nick[Skyler]> agreed
[23:06] <Celestial> definitely
[23:06] <+Pleeb> But basically,
[23:07] <+Pleeb> Your brain sort of has a formula that it adheres to.
[23:07] <marador> very interesting. I sorta /knew/ that stuff. But I didn't know the mechanics behind it.
[23:08] <+Pleeb> Your brain pretty much works out that,
[23:08] <+Pleeb> (trying to find a way to word this)
[23:08] <+Pleeb> Okay.  When an object is closer to you, we know that it's causing a bigger retinal image, even if the object is not really doubling in size.
[23:08] <+Pleeb> So what your brain does, is, for objects that are getting closer to you, it has you percieve that object's size as being smaller.
[23:09] <+Pleeb> So the overall perception of that object's size would be about constant.
[23:09] <marador> someone in .info wants to talk to you when you get a second pleeb
[23:09] <Celestial> get them here!
[23:09] <marador> he says he cant switch channels
[23:09] <+Pleeb> Yeah, I read the comment.
[23:09] <marador> okay
[23:09] <+Pleeb> I'll get to that, in a moment.
[23:10] <+Pleeb> (I contacted the host regarding the SQL stuff)
[23:10] <Fracas> Oh, sweet.
[23:10] <+Pleeb> There's no database to actually connect to.
[23:10] <Reguile> ahh, pleeb, I recently kind of half abandoned my minecraft server, because I started college
[23:10] <+Pleeb> So nothing is really at risk atm ^^;
[23:10] <Fracas> Well that's good :3
[23:11] <+Nobillis> The same perception calculation is used in surveying to do aerial photography to pick up ground level for roadworks planning - but.sometimes trees cause the height calculation to go wrong (SMIGS)
[23:11] <Celestial> hah
[23:11] <Fracas> lol
[23:11] <+Pleeb> Yeah.
[23:11] <+Pleeb> Anyway, I have to wrap this up, so I will,
[23:11] <+Pleeb> With the whole thing with size constancy.
[23:11] <Fracas> Sounds good.
[23:12] <+Pleeb> Basically, there are times when it indeed breaks down.
[23:12] <+Pleeb> When you're on top of a building, for instance.
[23:12] <+Pleeb> And you're looking down, and people "look like ants"
[23:12] <+Pleeb> The reason that happens, is because your brain doesn't actually know how to take such vertical hight into account to apply size constancy.
[23:12] <Fracas> huh.
[23:12] <+Pleeb> It's really good with horizontal distance, but not so good with vertical.
[23:13] <Celestial> tbh they never felt like real ants to me
[23:13] <Celestial> I mean, yeah, they're small but they're still full-sized people down there and stuff
[23:13] <+Pleeb> https://i.imgur.com/fU7m38E.png is a neat example of some things.
[23:13] <+Pleeb> Which person is bigger, which is smaller?
[23:13] <+Pleeb> They're both the same size.
[23:13] <Celestial> classic
[23:13] <+Pleeb> But your brain is percieving the one at the top as being bigger.
[23:14] <marador> ive always liked optical illusions like that
[23:14] <Fracas> they are cool.
[23:14] <+Pleeb> And the reason why, is because your brain figures out, "Okay, the one on the bottom, even know he's the same size as the one on the top, the one on the top is further away, so that one must be bigger."
[23:14] <+Pleeb> And then you percieve that person as being bigger.
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[23:15] <Fracas> yeah, heh
[23:15] <Celestial> makes you think just how little of the actual image you percieve, and how much of your thoughts about it instead
[23:15] <+Pleeb> What we actually did in class,
[23:15] <+Pleeb> To actually test this,
[23:15] <+Pleeb> We projected a really big green image on the wall.
[23:15] <+Pleeb> And we stared at that green image for about a minute.
[23:16] <+Pleeb> What happened was, that big green image burned into our retinas.
[23:16] <+Pleeb> And then, we looked down at a peice of paper that was close to us.
[23:16] <+Pleeb> And the afterimage, that was really big on the wall, was very tiny on the paper.
[23:16] <+Pleeb> Even know it stayed the same size on our retina.
[23:16] <Celestial> oh god I remember doing that
[23:16] <Fracas> Oh, clever.
[23:16] <+Pleeb> And you could actually move the paper close and further from you, and it would shrink and grow.
[23:16] <Teryakywind|Molly> trippy
[23:17] <+Pleeb> Because your brain is like, "Oh, now the image is x size, but further away, so it must be bigger."
[23:17] <Celestial> it feels so weird to look at it and not being able to see it the same size
[23:17] <+Pleeb> And I have one more.
[23:17] <+Pleeb> The moon.
[23:17] <Fracas> Oh?
[23:17] <Celestial> when it goes on the horizon, it looks bigger, rught?
[23:17] <+Pleeb> Guys, who here has seen the moon a little larger-than-normal when it's rising in teh early evening?
[23:17] <+Pleeb> Mhm.
[23:17] <+Pleeb> The moon looks bigger on the horizon, then it's smaller when it's up in the sky.
[23:17] <Celestial> they way because you have more frames of reference near the ground
[23:18] <+Pleeb> Mhm.
[23:18] <Celestial> they say it's because*
[23:18] <+Pleeb> If you stood there,
[23:18] <Celestial> muh grammer
[23:18] <+Pleeb> And took a picture of the moon when it's rising,
[23:18] <Fracas> Shit, that makes sense.
[23:18] <+Pleeb> Then, stayed in that position, and took a picture of it highi n the sky, when it's 'tiny'
[23:18] <marador> too many mountains around here to ever see it on the horizon
[23:18] <+Pleeb> And compare the photes,
[23:18] <+Pleeb> hey are exactly the same size.
[23:18] <+Pleeb> Even know it looks about 1.5 times bigger on the horizon.
[23:18] <Celestial> well marador, any place where you have some ground features in your FoV also
[23:18] <+Pleeb> And this is why:
[23:18] <marador> well that didn't sound quite right, but you know what I meant
[23:19] <+Pleeb> (and I'll posta  pic)
[23:19] <Celestial> because all the features you're comparing the moon to are much closer, right?
[23:19] <Celestial> so you tend to interpret the moon as part of them and it looks bigger by comparison
[23:20] <+Pleeb> First off, for some reason, and people don't know why, your perception seems to interperate the sky as a dome, with a flat heaven, like so: https://i.imgur.com/SbSkPv4.png
[23:20] <+Pleeb> When you're looking into the horizon,
[23:20] <Celestial> ooh yeah, also that
07[23:20] * Teryakywind|Molly (~the_fuzzy@I.Did.It.For.Teh.Lulz) has left #tulpa_subc (Leaving)
[23:20] <+Pleeb> You see the moon, but not just that, you have all those other depth queues.
[23:20] <+Pleeb> You can tell that the moon is bloody far away.
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[23:21] <+Pleeb> And among all the other references,
[23:21] <+Pleeb> Your perception is able to properly give you a good representation of the moon, with its actual size.
[23:21] <ThunderClap> I hate to interupt your discussion but how can you be so sure the website is secure, Pleeb?
[23:22] <Celestial> prolly because he can see that he's disconnected the database from the site, so there's nothing to hack
[23:22] <+Pleeb> ThunderClap: That error message is not exposing anything internal; it's not exposing any sql query statements, saying what things in the table are located, and that sort of thing.
[23:23] <+Pleeb> The error message says that server can't be connectd to.
[23:23] <+Pleeb> And the socket is a generic socket that most machines use.
[23:23] <+Pleeb> There's nothing to be exposed.
[23:24] <+Pleeb> I did open a support ticket with our shared hosting.
[23:25] <+Pleeb> Anyway, I actually have to head off in a moment.
[23:26] <Celestial> aw, small question before you go, how are you and Chess doing? got into any more paranormal activity as of late?
[23:26] <Fracas> Ok, glad you could spare a moment to talk with us!
[23:26] <Reguile> heh, magick
[23:27] <+Nobillis> Thank you Pleeb.
[23:27] <+Pleeb> Chess is doing fine, and there's things here and there, though no time to get into some big details on the subject.
[23:27] <Celestial> alright :3 thanks for the talk, it was awesome!
[23:27] <+Pleeb> No problem!
[23:27] <marador> as always thanks for sharing pleeb
[23:28] <+Pleeb> ThunderClap: Once I do havea ccess to the site agin, I'm going to find a way to replace that with a generic error message, regardless.
[23:28] <+Pleeb> And yeah, glad you enjoyed it!