echoes-low

[5:29 PM] erubi: the way I see it there are two real ways of defining the low% category

There's a mission final screen based low% where all that is relevant is the number next to the percent sign, which is 4%.

Then there's the item based low% which disregards the mission final screen in favor of counting the number of items. currently this is 6%, but given that we've already disregarded the mission final screen and I see no reason why the items you start with and rely upon throughout the entirety of the run should not count, it should really be called 11 item
[5:30 PM] erubi: with that in mind, 10 item should obsolete 6%
[5:33 PM] thk573: Gonna put it out there that 6% counts the number of items collected. Not just the number of items
[5:34 PM] erubi: there's no good reason to use the number of items collected. the only reason up until now is that the mission final screen counts the number collected and doesn't count the ones you start with
[5:34 PM] erubi: that and preserving old low%
[5:35 PM] icefire: you're taking something simple and making it complicated and the only reason I can see your motivation for this is to try and make 4% the only low%
[5:35 PM] erubi: I'm not
[5:35 PM] erubi: I'm in favor of making 4% and 10 item the two low%s
[5:36 PM] erubi: my problem with 6% was that it was boring. 10 item is less boring
[5:36 PM] thk573: 6% has always been about collecting the lowest number of items though. Kind of why it says "6% collection" on the category page
[5:36 PM] thk573: Though it only got that after 4% was discovered
[5:36 PM] icefire: ya'll drove out the people that cared so I guess you can do whatever you want with echoes now
[5:37 PM] thk573: If you want 10 item inventory, then sure. But 6% has always been about lowest items collected in the run
[5:40 PM] erubi: when that name/category definition was created I thought it was dumb then and I still think it's dumb now

defining based off the number of items you go through the physical act of collecting is really arbitrary and actually misses the point of a low% category.

the fun in a low% category doesn't come from not doing the act of collecting an item pickup. the fun comes from overcoming the challenges the game presents without the items it expects you to have
[5:40 PM] whiskers: I'm with lv just saying
[5:40 PM] erubi: both 4% and 10 item have those challenges
[5:40 PM] whiskers: Either you're using the mission final screen % or you use your item inventory
[5:42 PM] whiskers: Drove out the people that cared is quite the statement
[5:42 PM] whiskers: Considering the only people that cared about any of the low% stuff are the people looking at it still after all these years
[5:44 PM] whiskers: The people that "cared" have a history of bailing from this community and leaving the game for extended periods of time
[5:44 PM] erubi: literally the only person you could describe as being driven out is livingcircuitry (even then describing him as being driven out is a massive overexaggeration)
[5:44 PM] erubi: and guess what, he doesn't care about any category other than any%
[5:46 PM] whiskers: The way I see it
[5:46 PM] whiskers: The only people who care about low% are the people still here still routing it and still trying to solve lower% s
[5:49 PM] whiskers: If we cared about making 4% the only low% we would let 6% stay dead with no runners and nobody researching it. But instead we still talk about how to get 5% and we tried to look at any other method to improve its own item inventory
[5:50 PM] whiskers: You guys just sound mad that we did it.
[5:51 PM] whiskers: Either you can skip more items or you can't. I can see how there is an argument that 4% is a different low% but I don't see how 6% is different than 10 item
[5:52 PM] erubi: my problem with 6% was never that we had two low%s. having 2 low%s is actually kinda neat if there's a good reason for it. my problem with 6% was and still is:
A: it is really lame compared to 21% and 4%
B: it's definition is arbitrary and feels like a thinly veiled attempt to preserve old low%
10 item solves both of those problems
[5:53 PM] whiskers: What's most bothersome to me is I don't know that there would even have been such a heavy handed discussion about it if we had solved 10 item first
[5:53 PM] whiskers: And then 4% later
[5:58 PM] Nick_Morningstar: The no ils categories like 10 percent seem more interesting I feel like thats true low percent since you lose everything from the beginning and its more like prime 21 percent, ils makes everything more simple since you have boost sj bombs right out the gate where as 10 percent challenges you to think outside the box.
[5:58 PM] Nick_Morningstar: I assume 10 item
[5:58 PM] Nick_Morningstar: Is 10 percent?
[5:58 PM] erubi: 10 item loses items at the beginning before doing anything else
[5:58 PM] erubi: it has basically every single challenge that 6% has and more
[5:59 PM] whiskers: Yes 10 item is 10%
[5:59 PM] erubi: only ones it doesn't are that it gets violet translator
[6:00 PM] MrMiguel:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/499372986705379340/659530857027076116/3kh170.jpg
[6:00 PM] Nick_Morningstar: Lool
[6:00 PM] Nick_Morningstar: Lool
[6:00 PM] MrMiguel: Why is this even a thing
[6:01 PM] whiskers: Because we found a way to get less items than 6% without abusing ILS
[6:01 PM] MrMiguel: I'll give my definitive Statement
[6:01 PM] whiskers: That's way
[6:01 PM] erubi: "why is this even a thing" is not an argument
[6:03 PM] MrMiguel: 4% can be a Misc category about a Mission Final screen number being low and that's it. Low% is a category which collects the fewest items as possible in a run.
[6:03 PM] MrMiguel: Whenever ILS is used or not for 6% and 10% has yet to be debated
[6:04 PM] erubi: you've yet to provide an argument for while we should define it based off the number of pickups located in the game world that you go through the action of overlapping your environmental collision box with
[6:05 PM] erubi: I seriously don't understand this fixation on the act of collecting an item
[6:05 PM] erubi: whether the item is collected at some point in the run or handed to you by god has no bearing on how fun the category is
[6:06 PM] MrMiguel: Because you collect a shitton of items before doing something Low% related
[6:06 PM] erubi: that's factually untrue but ok
[6:06 PM] MrMiguel: Oh my b then you do really collect only 4 items
[6:06 PM] MrMiguel: Wait a sec..
[6:07 PM] MrMiguel: 4% imo is just a jammed and really obnoxiously long and cance Any% run
[6:07 PM] icefire: I wasn't talking about LC, LV

I wasn't even thinking about you when I said what I said @whiskers but I guess more happened when I was gone than I thought if you felt offended by it
[6:07 PM] erubi: no miguel it isn't.
[6:08 PM] MrMiguel: 4% can still be 4% as it is, but it's not a true "Low% run"
[6:10 PM] Kalibur: Not an echoes runner but there is no “true low%” because what people think is “true low%” is kinda subjective
[6:10 PM] Pan: several people are typing
[6:10 PM] Kalibur: Some people say “true low%” is collecting the least amount of items possible, and others say it’s just the lowest percent possible
[6:10 PM] MrMiguel: That's true, which is why it's being discussed to use 10% or 6%
[6:11 PM] MrMiguel: Oh
[6:12 PM] MrMiguel: It definetly shouldn't be the Lowest % possible
[6:12 PM] erubi: miguel have you ever even watched 4%? you still haven't provided an actual argument as to why it's not "true low%."
[6:13 PM] MrMiguel: I don't need to watch a run
[6:13 PM] erubi: I've said this before and I'll say it again
the fun in a low% category doesn't come from not doing the act of collecting an item pickup. the fun comes from overcoming the challenges the game presents without the items it expects you to have
4% has that. it even has that during part 1 because you don't have access to screw attack or light suit
[6:13 PM] Kalibur: I think to argue against something you should understand it, shouldn’t you?
[6:13 PM] MrMiguel: Simply by knowing you collect a lot of shit in the world denies the fact it's Low%
[6:14 PM] MrMiguel: Then you just do a bunch of cance for "fun"
[6:14 PM] MrMiguel: It's a challenge indeed but still not "Low%"
[6:14 PM] Pan: low% = lower percent on the endscreen
[6:14 PM] Pan: 4% accomplishes that
[6:15 PM] Pan: my 2 cents on this issue is you have a low% category that has ILS and one that doesnt
[6:15 PM] MrMiguel: Yet you collect like 15 items beforehand
[6:15 PM] erubi: irrelevant
[6:15 PM] MrMiguel: Relevant
[6:15 PM] MrMiguel: Items are items
[6:16 PM] Pan: reverse
[6:16 PM] MrMiguel: You should collect as lowest as possible
[6:16 PM] erubi: again, I don't understand this fixation on the number of pickups located in the game world that you go through the action of overlapping your environmental collision box with
[6:16 PM] MrMiguel: Not just reset some number on the screen
[6:16 PM] Kalibur: The issue with both sides is there’s not the same criteria for “low%”
[6:16 PM] erubi: you've yet to provide a good argument for why you should fixate on that
[6:16 PM] erubi: all you've done is plea "true low%"
[6:18 PM] MrMiguel: If what you imply would be true, then it would be the same case for 100% then
[6:18 PM] MrMiguel: You can just do ILS and dupe the missile
[6:18 PM] MrMiguel: You're getting 100% in the screen :D
[6:18 PM] Pan: imo lv is right here because 6% involves keeping items in your inventory that would otherwise count towards percent if you had to actually go through the action of picking them up, but since you dont you argue that that's somehow different
[6:18 PM] erubi: 100% is different because the fun comes from overlapping your environmental collision box with every item in the game world
[6:18 PM] MrMiguel: What the actual fuck
[6:19 PM] erubi: if dupes were allowed it would be any% with 70+ cobalt dupes
[6:19 PM] MrMiguel: Ok look
[6:19 PM] erubi: if 4% was any% with ILS at the end, then yeah obviously that's a problem. but it's not
[6:20 PM] thk573: erubi, a lot of your other points have been valid
[6:20 PM] MrMiguel: Simply because you collect a bunch of items before doing something "Low%" makes it not real Low%
[6:20 PM] thk573: But you should not base a category like low% on whether or not it's fun
[6:20 PM] thk573: That's a very subjective thing and isn't good for definitions
[6:21 PM] erubi: well I'm basing it off "what is the goal when creating a category like this"
[6:21 PM] MrMiguel: @erubi "collition box" is not an argument
[6:21 PM] erubi: and at least for me, the goal for a low% category is to showcase overcoming the game's challenges without the items it expects you to have
[6:21 PM] MrMiguel: oh shit new meme
[6:21 PM] Kalibur: Where lol
[6:22 PM] MrMiguel: "X thing" is not an argument
[6:22 PM] MrMiguel: lol
[6:22 PM] erubi: so we should create a category definition that leads to that goal
[6:22 PM] Pan: im joining the box coalition
[6:23 PM] erubi: not necessarily entirely define the category entirely off that, but that should be our guiding principle when creating the definition
[6:24 PM] erubi: there are two category definitions that are conducive to that, the mission final based category definition and the item inventory definition/no ils definition
[6:24 PM] MrMiguel: Low% = Collecting as fewest items as possible
[6:24 PM] MrMiguel: End of the fucking story
[6:24 PM] erubi: if mission final based category definition led to a degenerate low% (any% with ILS at the end) then obviously I would be against it. but it doesn't
[6:25 PM] MrMiguel: See? I just ended it for you without making an essay
[6:26 PM] Pan: not that simple, you could just as easily say that low% = finishing the game with as few items as possible
[6:26 PM] erubi: the only arguments put against the mission final definition are either appeals to true low%, fixation on the act of collecting items without justifying why, or a combination of the two
[6:26 PM] erubi: 100% has justification for fixating on the act of collecting items, it would be degenerate otherwise
[6:26 PM] erubi: low% does not
[6:27 PM] MrMiguel: 4% itself is degenerate
[6:27 PM] erubi: not in the technical sense no
[6:27 PM] MrMiguel: also cance
[6:27 PM] erubi: I'm using technical definition of degenerate "lacking some property, order, or distinctness of structure previously or usually present."
[6:28 PM] erubi: 100% without defining it based off item collection is any% with 70+ cobalt dupes
[6:28 PM] MrMiguel: We're not talking about "Any% with 70+ Cobalt dupes"
[6:29 PM] MrMiguel: We're talking about just how 4% relies on being that itself, 100% can do just about the same with dupping an item
[6:29 PM] MrMiguel: So you can do ILS and still be 100%
[6:30 PM] MrMiguel: Because of how 4% got allowed for what it is, 100% would have to be too
[6:30 PM] thk573: Honestly? If we're bringing 100% into this discussion, yes. The fastest 100% WOULD be "Any% with cobalt dupes" and what we call 100% right now is "100% w/ Source Requirement"
[6:30 PM] MrMiguel: Well, yeah
[6:30 PM] erubi: 100% based on mission final screen lacks the qualities you would expect in a 100% run. 4% and 10 item still have what you would expect in a low% run. they have the challenge that comes from overcoming the game's obstacles without the expected items
[6:30 PM] MrMiguel: Actually, You really just pointed it out to me
[6:30 PM] erubi: I personally prefer the name "All Items" for 100%
[6:31 PM] MrMiguel: Because of what 4% is, 100% can really be just Any% with +70 Cobalt dupes
[6:31 PM] erubi: miguel what do you even mean by "Because of how 4% got allowed for what it is." you don't even know what it is, you've already admitted you've never watched a 4% run. again, all you've done is appeal to "true low%" and fixate on the act of item collection without justification
[6:32 PM] Pan: this isnt relevant to the discussion because there's more than 1 way to reach 100% on the final screen and only 1 way to reach 4%
[6:32 PM] erubi: the only justification he's given is "true low%"
[6:32 PM] Pan: so 100% has to be defined such that you can only do it 1 way
[6:32 PM] Pan: imo
[6:32 PM] erubi: 100% has the justification
[6:33 PM] Pan: there is not "true low%" because of the ils horseshit but whatev
[6:33 PM] erubi: 100% without that definition is discount any%. low% without that definition is not discount any%
[6:34 PM] MrMiguel: That's not what I meant
[6:35 PM] MrMiguel: I meant that just as how 4% can be possible, 100% with any other method of items in inventory manipulation can be possible too, and being the category that it's implying to be.
[6:48 PM] Vertigo: petition for new category 100% and 4% combined. collect all items except 4% items and dupe cobalt until 100% then lose items and continue 4% as normal
[6:51 PM] LBM: Huh
[6:51 PM] LBM: That sounds really fun actually
[7:00 PM] Nick_Morningstar: So basically 100 percent no source requirement
[7:00 PM] Nick_Morningstar: Nsr
[11:05 PM] Vertigo: so 10% is probably the most cancer thing in the world
[11:55 PM] Cody7737: :PogChamp:
[12:15 AM] erubi: https://pastebin.com/Y3cz4sU6
Pastebin
lazy 10 item route - Pastebin.com
[12:17 AM] MrMiguel: i rate this pastebin a 4% run
[12:55 AM] TheWeakestLink64: I’m an echoes speedrunner, and I understand a lot that most people don’t about these categories. 4% isn’t real low% and I’m not saying that because I don’t like it. I’m saying that based off years of research.
[12:59 AM] whiskers: the idea that 4% is messy any% comes from an uneducated and underdeveloped opinion
[12:59 AM] whiskers: its just objectively not true
[1:00 AM] whiskers: counter argument to things said previously, low% is as much about whats fun as whats true to low%
[1:02 AM] whiskers: there arent a lot of games out there that have low%'s to begin with. but i can tell your their rules are not based on the "collect as few items as possible" bullshit
[1:02 AM] whiskers: its unique to every game and should be treated as such. lets take low% in skyward sword for example
[1:03 AM] whiskers: their low% consists of playing the game an entire 1 time over
[1:03 AM] whiskers: just to be able to skip 1 item through a glitch that persists through save files
[1:03 AM] whiskers: thats what they decided
[1:03 AM] whiskers: back in MM days like 2 years ago
[1:03 AM] whiskers: they had 16 item low% and banned 15 item for using the same basic idea
[1:03 AM] whiskers: its game to game
[1:03 AM] erubi: wait I thought 15 item skipped light arrows by flipping stt with a bottle
[1:04 AM] erubi: they banned skipping magic with the stupid pause buffering the powder keg bullshit iirc
[1:04 AM] whiskers: even those games dont go off "what you collect" they go off their own rules specific to their game
[1:04 AM] whiskers: they banned magic skip which required setting up another file
[1:04 AM] whiskers: which was the original 15 item lv
[1:05 AM] erubi: idk
[1:05 AM] erubi: either way, things like this are why simple "low% = collect the minimum amount of items" definitions don't work
[1:05 AM] whiskers: low% doesnt have to be defined by one simple definition that just doesnt make sense to me
[1:06 AM] whiskers: if this game can work with 2 definitions then fine
[1:06 AM] whiskers: 6% doesnt fit any definition i agree with tho
[1:06 AM] erubi: instead each game should have its own definition that is most conducive to the general goal of a low% category, which is generally beating the game while overcoming the game's challenges without the items it expects you to have
[1:07 AM] erubi: both a mission final screen based definition and an item inventory based definition do lead to that type of gameplay, while an item collection based definition does not
[1:09 AM] whiskers: collecting as few items as possible just doesnt seem like its actually relevant to me
[1:09 AM] whiskers: i could point at skyward sword again but that just seems unfair
[1:10 AM] whiskers: you could throw mm as the rebuttle to it but like the true reason mm banned 15 item magic skip was because of how shitty it was
[1:10 AM] whiskers: skyward sword could have done the same but they didnt feel like it
[1:10 AM] erubi: yeah it required pause buffering for like 6+ hours
[1:10 AM] whiskers: neither was prioritizing """item collection"""
[1:11 AM] whiskers: they were prioritizing interesting gameplay
[1:11 AM] MrMiguel:
the idea that 4% is messy any% comes from an *uneducated and underdeveloped* opinion
[1:11 AM] MrMiguel: huh
[1:11 AM] MrMiguel: Well shit
[1:11 AM] whiskers: yeah i dont think you know the route
[1:11 AM] whiskers: id like to see how the goals from 4%'s route line up with the goals from any%'s route
[1:12 AM] erubi: miguel you've literally admitted that you don't need to watch the run to know that it's not "true low%" because of your clinging to the item collection metric
[1:12 AM] MrMiguel: Yes?
[1:12 AM] whiskers: if you dont know the route or why its routed the way it is
[1:12 AM] MrMiguel: What's your point tho?
[1:12 AM] whiskers: then how can you compare it to anything lol
[1:12 AM] erubi: you just proved whiskers point
[1:13 AM] MrMiguel: Why would me knowing the route change anything?
[1:13 AM] whiskers: youve only proven that your knowledge of 4% is surface level and therefore your opinion is coming from a lack of understanding of how that category is truly routed or played out
[1:13 AM] erubi: you're acting like it's :GreatValue~1: any%
[1:13 AM] MrMiguel: You're still collecting more than 4 items
[1:13 AM] whiskers: which is my point
[1:13 AM] whiskers: im not saying youre stupid
[1:14 AM] MrMiguel: Nah you saying I'm dumb
[1:14 AM] MrMiguel: gotcha tho
[1:14 AM] whiskers: im saying you dont know enough about 4% to make a claim like that
[1:14 AM] whiskers: no im literally not
[1:14 AM] erubi: you've yet to actually justify why we should care about the act of collecting items
[1:14 AM] MrMiguel: I guess
[1:14 AM] MrMiguel: lol
[1:15 AM] whiskers: its not a statement of intelligence i promise you
[1:15 AM] whiskers: if you would like ill rephrase
[1:15 AM] MrMiguel: oh so it's Anti-Intelligence
[1:15 AM] whiskers: "to claim that 4% is messy any% just shows you have a lack of understanding of the goals of 4%, its routing, its restrictions, and its gameplay"
[1:15 AM] MrMiguel: Yeah
[1:16 AM] MrMiguel: But that doesn't change the fact that you're still collecting more than 4 items
[1:16 AM] MrMiguel: But erubi just pointed out nobody gives a fuck so
[1:16 AM] MrMiguel: Can't really do anything
[1:16 AM] MrMiguel: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
[1:16 AM] whiskers: does collecting more than 4 items matter
[1:17 AM] whiskers: any% collects more than whatever % of items
[1:17 AM] whiskers: up until i changed it with a recent reroute 100% collected more than 100 items
[1:17 AM] erubi: whether you go through the act of collecting the item or having it handed to you by god at the beginning of the game has no bearing on how much fun or how cool the category is
[1:17 AM] MrMiguel: you mean NSJ aether jumping w/ Lightshow?
[1:18 AM] MrMiguel: And +4hrs?
[1:18 AM] MrMiguel: Yep, fun
[1:18 AM] MrMiguel: You know runs above 2 hours aren't speedruns :Kappa:
[1:19 AM] erubi: yeah shit like that is what makes low% fun
[1:19 AM] MrMiguel: ight
[1:20 AM] MrMiguel: Wr when
[1:20 AM] whiskers: im just confused as to what your perspective is
[1:20 AM] whiskers: either you say its any% but messy
[1:20 AM] whiskers: or you go on about how it goes out of its way to skip stuff with lightshow wallcrawling
[1:20 AM] MrMiguel: Yes.
[1:20 AM] erubi: you can't have both
[1:20 AM] erubi: pick one or the other
[1:20 AM] MrMiguel: What?
[1:21 AM] MrMiguel: What does lightshow wallcrawling have to do?
[1:21 AM] erubi: it's either :GreatValue~1: any% or stupid cance bullshit low%
[1:21 AM] erubi: pick one
[1:21 AM] MrMiguel: :GodFuckingAwfulContent: Any%
[1:21 AM] erubi: the answer to the first one is no, it's not
[1:21 AM] erubi: the answer to the second one is yes, that's the point
[1:22 AM] MrMiguel: My perspective of Low% is collecting as few items as possible to finish the game
[1:23 AM] erubi: I swear you're acting like when moses came down from the mountain, the 11th commandment was "Thou shalt define low% using the number of items you go through the act of collecting"
[1:23 AM] MrMiguel: sure
[1:23 AM] MrMiguel: Idk what that is but ok
[1:23 AM] whiskers: my perspective of low% is beating the game with as few items as possible
[1:24 AM] MrMiguel: Ok then
[1:24 AM] MrMiguel: Why has 4% not replaced 6% as the Main Low% in src then?
[1:24 AM] whiskers: cuz claris came back and bitched about it on twitter
[1:24 AM] erubi: ^
[1:24 AM] whiskers: literally the only reason
[1:24 AM] erubi: people who don't run the game still care about 6%
[1:24 AM] MrMiguel: Is that the only reason?
[1:24 AM] whiskers: we had settled on it for like 2 weeks
[1:24 AM] MrMiguel: Jesus
[1:25 AM] whiskers: she complained and dcr immediately caved into her complaint
[1:25 AM] whiskers: and then the discussion lasted like another 2 weeks and we finally settled on the compromise we have now
[1:25 AM] erubi: also 6% is old low%, so they came up with some really arbitrary bullshit to pretend that it's not old low%
[1:25 AM] erubi: like for example, with majora's mask, 15 item is old low%
[1:26 AM] erubi: new low% is 9 item and it sucks, but that doesn't change the fact that 15 item is old low%
[1:26 AM] MrMiguel: What does this even have to do with?
[1:26 AM] erubi: that's why it's still on the leaderboard
[1:26 AM] erubi: 6% is old low%, but people who don't run the game are pretending that it's not
[1:27 AM] MrMiguel: I don't get it
[1:27 AM] Vertigo: i cant wait to solve 9% and have more arguments happen
[1:27 AM] MrMiguel: Yeah me too
[1:27 AM] MrMiguel: (Not)
[1:27 AM] MrMiguel: But back in the subject
[1:28 AM] MrMiguel: If your facts are solid proof, Why didn't you just logically explained why 4% should stay as main Low% (and keep it like that) just like the whole discussion on changing Echoes to RTA?
[1:29 AM] whiskers: okay so maybe this is a loaded question but id like to hear your best backing argument for why item collection should be the only measurement for low% categories in speedruns as a whole
[1:29 AM] MrMiguel: ?
[1:29 AM] MrMiguel: Uh
[1:29 AM] erubi: I did argue that 6% is old low% then and I'm still arguing that it is now
[1:30 AM] whiskers: we did logically explain why 4% should stay as main low%. the main argument was 6% abuses item loss to its advantage as so does 4%
[1:30 AM] whiskers: to me they are the same
[1:30 AM] whiskers: one is just lower and more clever
[1:31 AM] MrMiguel: I don't really know what to say at this point tbh (about your question)
[1:31 AM] MrMiguel: If a bunch of people agree then I can't really do much
[1:31 AM] whiskers: it helps to have a sensible discussion if you have anything to back your opinions with
[1:32 AM] whiskers: if you have nothing to back yourself up with on your difference in opinion then youre not adding much to the conversation which is where we are at now
[1:32 AM] whiskers: youll say "low% is about item collection"
[1:32 AM] erubi: under both definitions I consider valid, mission final and item inventory, 6% is obsoleted by either 4% or 10 item respectively. the only definition where it isn't obsolete is really arbitrary and was specifically crafted to preserve old low% while trying to maintain plausible deniability that it wasn't specifically crafted to preserve old low%
[1:32 AM] whiskers: we say "no its not see examples A, B and C as well as these things"
[1:32 AM] whiskers: and then you say
[1:33 AM] whiskers: "then why is 6% still a thing" as if that somehow backs your opinion
[1:33 AM] MrMiguel: OOh yeah I remember it now
[1:33 AM] whiskers: this is my biggest problem with 6% currently
[1:34 AM] whiskers: in order to maintain that category your have to define a ruleset as follows
[1:34 AM] MrMiguel: Yes that's the thing hold on
[1:34 AM] whiskers: holding for you
[1:36 AM] MrMiguel: I remember one SGDQ or AGDQ run of 100% that they were mentioning that item dupes cannot be a factor of the 100% definition, that it strictly has to do with the amount of items there are in the world and so is the category
[1:36 AM] MrMiguel: Then I remembered one time Claris said that it applies the same for Low%
[1:36 AM] erubi: I've already explained why that's necessary for 100% to prevent it from being :GreatValue~1: any%
[1:36 AM] MrMiguel: Yeah but
[1:36 AM] erubi: it's not necessary for low% to prevent it from being :GreatValue~1: any%
[1:36 AM] MrMiguel: The main ruleset
[1:37 AM] MrMiguel: Was that it had to do with the items in the world
[1:37 AM] erubi: for 100%, because it's necessary for 100%
[1:37 AM] whiskers: 100% already has its ruleset made even more arbitrary than that though
[1:37 AM] MrMiguel: And "not some number on the screen"
[1:37 AM] whiskers: it also bans any potential for item loss
[1:37 AM] whiskers: as you also are required to finish the game with all items in your inventory that you collected
[1:37 AM] MrMiguel: Yeah it is like that for 100%, so why shouldn't it be the same for Low% then
[1:37 AM] MrMiguel: That was my argument
[1:38 AM] erubi: because it doesn't need to be, and doing that makes low% less interesting
[1:38 AM] MrMiguel: I quite couldn't put my finger on it but now I remember
[1:38 AM] whiskers: because thats necessary to define anything that resembles 100%
[1:38 AM] whiskers: without those rules
[1:38 AM] MrMiguel: Yes
[1:38 AM] whiskers: you dont have anything
[1:38 AM] MrMiguel: :GreatValue~1: Any%
[1:38 AM] whiskers: without defining any such added abitrary rules onto low%
[1:39 AM] whiskers: you still arent left with :GreatValue~1: any%
[1:39 AM] whiskers: if we take a second to look at hundo as your picture perfect example for low%
[1:39 AM] whiskers: youd get fucked like straight up
[1:40 AM] MrMiguel: Which makes me go back, and you still haven't answered it yet:
If your facts are solid proof, Why didn't you just logically explained why 4% should stay as main Low% (and keep it like that) just like the whole discussion on changing Echoes to RTA?
[1:40 AM] whiskers: 100% isnt about what items you have to collect from where its about what items you have to have in your inventory from their ORIGINAL SOURCE
[1:40 AM] whiskers: 100% is literally about having the items in your inventory from the place they come from
[1:40 AM] erubi: I have answered that
[1:40 AM] MrMiguel: What
[1:40 AM] MrMiguel: Well let me rephrase the question hold up
[1:41 AM] whiskers: what do you mean we didnt answer that ?
[1:41 AM] erubi:
I did argue that 6% is old low% then and I'm still arguing that it is now

under both definitions I consider valid, mission final and item inventory, 6% is obsoleted by either 4% or 10 item respectively. the only definition where it isn't obsolete is really arbitrary and was specifically crafted to preserve old low% while trying to maintain plausible deniability that it wasn't specifically crafted to preserve old low%
[1:41 AM] whiskers: okay now to go back to my argument that i held off on
[1:41 AM] MrMiguel: That doesn't look like a definitive or direct answer
[1:41 AM] whiskers: 6% is literally
[1:42 AM] whiskers: lowest mission final screen % while not being allowed to abuse item loss but being allowed to skip losing your items but also not having to recollect any items you may already have been given to start the run with
[1:42 AM] erubi: ^
[1:42 AM] MrMiguel: And 4%?
[1:42 AM] whiskers: its basically ng+ low%
[1:42 AM] erubi: lowest mission final screen %
[1:43 AM] MrMiguel: Which one is the most interesting one? By your opinion
[1:43 AM] erubi: 4%
[1:43 AM] whiskers: 4% is much more interesting than 6%
[1:43 AM] whiskers: 4% and 10 item are tied imo
[1:43 AM] erubi: also 10 item is interesting too
[1:43 AM] MrMiguel: So then comes my final question
[1:43 AM] MrMiguel: Why not change the Main Low% to 4% or 10% when it gets demonstrated?
[1:44 AM] erubi: it should
[1:44 AM] erubi: that's what I'm arguing
[1:44 AM] whiskers: im fine with it changing to either tbh
[1:44 AM] whiskers: i consider both to be most valid candidates for low%
[1:44 AM] erubi: the reason 4% hasn't obsoleted 6% already is because people who don't run the game anymore still want it on the board
[1:44 AM] whiskers: ^
[1:45 AM] MrMiguel: oh
[1:45 AM] MrMiguel: Well then :clap: that settles it for me
[1:46 AM] whiskers: ill feel like a dick pointing it out but also
[1:46 AM] whiskers: they tend to bail on this discord and shit on it
[1:46 AM] whiskers: then come back to complain till they get something they want
[1:46 AM] whiskers: whether that be 6% back or echoes switched to rta or gecko
[1:47 AM] whiskers: there are people out there that come back just to try and flex their leaderboard spot or m2k2 forum post count as if they are relevant and im getting kind of tired of it
[1:47 AM] erubi: yeah pretty much
[1:47 AM] MrMiguel: Is there really anyone like that? lol
[1:47 AM] whiskers: i wont namedrop
[1:48 AM] whiskers: ive already namedropped enough
[2:05 AM] erubi: jack 879 is probably the best example of that that I don't feel bad namedropping
[2:05 AM] erubi: once gecko came out he came back just to bitch about it, spew some other bullshit, and leave
[2:13 AM] MrMiguel: Can someone dm me who Jack 879 is and some history if possible? :P
[2:45 AM] erubi: do you know who wqqqqwrt is? if so he's basically that but for this game and super metroid
[2:46 AM] erubi: :GreatValue~1: wqqqqwrt basically
[2:46 AM] MrMiguel: idk who wqqqqwrt is either
[2:46 AM] erubi: oh ok
[2:47 AM] erubi: where to even start lmao
[2:49 AM] erubi: well the tldr is that jack became convinced that skull is a dictator and that the prime speedrunning leaderboard is run by a clique, and then he deleted his speedrun.com account and left the community
[2:50 AM] erubi: but not before creating a long funny ass pastebin which "exposed" skull and the prime leaderboards as a whole and was just generally a bunch of bullshit
[2:50 AM] erubi: unfortunately that pastebin has been lost to time
[2:50 AM] erubi: I was not able to grab it in time and it still haunts me to this day
[2:51 AM] MrMiguel: Years of academy training wasted!
[2:51 AM] erubi: I can't even remember what was in it fuck, all I remember is that it was bullshit
[2:51 AM] MrMiguel: I'm sorry to hear that lol
[2:51 AM] erubi: I'm so mad at myself for not getting it
[2:54 AM] erubi: here is an example of one of the things he said after one of the times he's came back (he's come back like 3 or 4 times at this point? idk)
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/499372986705379340/659665391622160394/evidencegoty.png
[2:55 AM] erubi: (rinoa is wqqqqwrt)
[2:56 AM] MrMiguel: Oh lol so it's like the two troublemakers bonded together? lol
[2:56 AM] MrMiguel: Wait
[2:57 AM] MrMiguel: Wasn't jack here when we were discussing about gecko being used for runs?
[2:57 AM] erubi: yeah
[2:57 AM] MrMiguel: Yeah I was there
[2:57 AM] MrMiguel: Holy shit
[2:57 AM] erubi: he came back to bitch about gecko and left
[2:59 AM] erubi: also as you can see in that image, he's convinced he's the only rational person (wqqqqwrt also has this quality)
[2:59 AM] erubi: but like everything he says is incoherent bullshit
[2:59 AM] MrMiguel: lmao
[2:59 AM] MrMiguel: btw this is getting off topic
[3:00 AM] MrMiguel: [Insert take it to DMs meme here]
[3:01 AM] erubi: whatever, point is that jack879 is the laughing stock of this community basically lmao
[3:01 AM] erubi: oh also did you know that he actually reads a dictionary in his free time
[3:01 AM] erubi: at the very least he told whiskers that he should read a dictionary in his free time
[3:01 AM] MrMiguel: Wow
[3:02 AM] erubi: and not like in a "I'm reading a dictionary because I'm learning a second language and want to become more proficient,"
[3:03 AM] erubi: it's like "I'm reading a dictionary so that no one will know what the words I use mean"
[3:04 AM] erubi: that way they'll think I'm smart when they have to go to google to figure out what its means
[3:05 AM] erubi: I'm sure you've seen the copypasta of a billion tiers by now https://pastebin.com/yxjkypzb
Pastebin
Copypasta of a billion tiers - Pastebin.com

[3:06 AM] MrMiguel: Oh lol the stockfish essay
[3:06 AM] erubi: this was written by someone else, but he has a very similar style to his writing where he always tries to use as many large words as possible to artificially inflate his ego
[3:06 AM] erubi: also it's possible that bruce lee/stockfish is just jacks alt
[3:06 AM] erubi: I wouldn't be surprised, but really the only evidence is that both of them rely on the dictionary way too hard lmao
[3:08 AM] MrMiguel: nah I don't think so
[3:08 AM] MrMiguel: stockfish was just a bad troll
[3:08 AM] MrMiguel: Also would jack be interested in Trilogy?
[3:09 AM] erubi: no lol
[3:09 AM] erubi: either way, it doesn't seem likely but I wouldn't be surprised
[11:08 AM] Dyceron: @erubi since you're the only runner of 4% right now, would it be fine if I changed the boards to have the 2 variations of it be filters instead of subcategories for now just because the other variant has never be done to save clutter? Or should I just remove it entirely until it's done (if ever)
[1:32 PM] erubi: honestly the sj leaderboard should be removed. no one has ever run it and no one will ever run it
[1:33 PM] erubi: if that changes (which it won't) then it can always be put back up
[1:34 PM] erubi: 4% sj is basically :GreatValue~1: any%, except with really really really really really shitty unfun final bosses that will never be done ss
[1:47 PM] erubi: maybe have like a reference to it in the rules like "there is a theoretical alternate route that skips Light Suit in favor of Space Jump"
[1:53 PM] erubi: oh also, the 21% leaderboard currently has a section that says
This run collects:

    12 Artifacts
    Missile Launcher
    Morph Ball
    Bombs
    Varia Suit
    Wave Beam
    Ice Beam
    Plasma Beam
    Main Power Bombs
    X-Ray Visor
    Phazon Suit

I think 4% should have a similar section like
After resetting the percentage counter, this run collects:
9 Sky Temple Keys
Light Suit
Screw Attack
Morph Ball Bombs
Spider Ball
[2:16 PM] Dyceron: ok i fixed the board
[2:19 PM] erubi: looks like :GoodContent~1: to me
[9:21 PM] Im_Zlow: I honestly don't understand why people refuse to take LV seriously at all. You can try to say that LV doesn't know what he's talking about but that's pretty much false. He literally is the Only Low% runner at the moment. So if you wanna use arguments like "You don't even run the game!" or shit like that, then LV is literally the only person who can make decisions on Low%. Unless yall wanna start running.

Imo there should be 2 categories.
Low% and Low Item Collection.
4% is Low%
10IC is Low Item Collection.

6% is literally completely irrelevant because it isn't the lowest Percent, nor is it the lowest Item Collection. And if you want to make the argument that 6% is a true Low% you need to provide evidence.

Saying that 6% (11 Item Collection) is the real low% over 10 Item Collection or 4% is like saying 22% is the real Low% of Prime1, which you wouldn't say because that's retarded
[9:22 PM] TheWeakestLink64: Yeah honestly
[9:22 PM] TheWeakestLink64: LV has put in the time and he deserves to have his opinion at the very least respected
[9:23 PM] TheWeakestLink64: If Justin came in here I guarantee everyone would listen to what he has to say, even though he has never run any version of low% at all
[9:26 PM] MrMiguel: What about the argument of keys not counting?
[9:27 PM] MrMiguel: In that case 10% would collect more than 6%
[9:29 PM] Im_Zlow: Are you dogshit retarded
[9:29 PM] TheWeakestLink64: You collect all the keys in every category...
[9:30 PM] MrMiguel: @Im_Zlow You don't have to be a fucking asshole
[9:30 PM] MrMiguel: I already know that, I mean what if someone comes and says that keys not count and thus 6% still being true Low%
[9:30 PM] TheWeakestLink64: So keys count for 10% but not 6%?
[9:31 PM] MrMiguel: I didn't say that
[9:31 PM] TheWeakestLink64: You did though
[9:31 PM] MrMiguel: When
[9:31 PM] TheWeakestLink64: What about the argument of keys not counting?
In that case 10% would collect more than 6%
[9:31 PM] Im_Zlow: LMAO This again? If collecting Keys counted as items we'd be counting em LOOOOOOOL Not even useful dumbass try it bro. They stopped counting as items YEARS AGO
[9:31 PM] MrMiguel: I don't see your point
[9:31 PM] MrMiguel: What's to see in this?
[9:32 PM] TheWeakestLink64: How can you say that keys make the difference in item collection when both categories collect all they keys
[9:32 PM] MrMiguel: I'm talking about the % thingy
[9:32 PM] Im_Zlow: Both categories collect the same keys. So 10 would go to 19 and 11(6%) would go to 20
[9:32 PM] Im_Zlow: I really cannot follow your logic at all
[9:35 PM] MrMiguel: 6% is literally completely irrelevant because it isn't the lowest Percent, nor is it the lowest Item Collection. And if you want to make the argument that 6% is a true Low% you need to provide evidence.
[9:35 PM] Im_Zlow: Keys counting towards percentage is in the code but can't be done for some reason
[9:35 PM] MrMiguel: Someone can just say "Keys don't count at all in this subject" and then follow to 6% being the true Low%
[9:36 PM] MrMiguel: Because 6 items vs 10 items (duh)
[9:36 PM] Im_Zlow: How
[9:36 PM] MrMiguel: How what
[9:36 PM] MrMiguel: I literally just said
[9:36 PM] Im_Zlow: Wait
[9:36 PM] Im_Zlow: you have literally no idea what you're talking about
[9:36 PM] TheWeakestLink64: You just contradicted yourself
[9:36 PM] TheWeakestLink64: First you said that keys count
[9:36 PM] TheWeakestLink64: And now you say that they don't
[9:36 PM] TheWeakestLink64: Which is it
[9:36 PM] MrMiguel: When tf did I said keys count
[9:37 PM] Im_Zlow: The 11 items in 6% comes from the items you start with
[9:37 PM] Im_Zlow: no the keys
[9:37 PM] Im_Zlow: so it's 11 items vs 10 items
[9:37 PM] Im_Zlow: and in percentage based category it's 6 vs 4
[9:37 PM] MrMiguel: That's literally all you had to say dude
[9:37 PM] MrMiguel: no need to be a memelord
[9:37 PM] Im_Zlow: My bad I didn't understand your argument at first
[9:37 PM] Im_Zlow: if I had understood what you were saying I would've just said that in the first place
[6:27 AM] erubi: I'll say that 4% sj doesn't collect the sky temple keys post item loss (it does collect them pre item loss with light suit). with that said if we did start counting items manually, I assume that if you collect things before ILS it still counts (otherwise 4% becomes unambiguous low%)

I can see an argument that we shouldn't count them because the percent counter doesn't count them either, but I could also see an argument that we should count them because prime 1's counter does and it would be more in line with 21% if we did

whether or not you count sky temple keys would only add a constant 9 because every single category has to get them at some point and they don't actually unlock anything other than the end of the game, so it really doesn't matter whether they're counted or not. whether or not 6% is counted as 11 item vs 20 item really makes no difference. I personally am more in favor of not counting the keys but it really doesn't matter
[6:49 AM] erubi: as to whether starting items should count, to me at least they very clearly should as you rely upon them throughout the entire run. in a category about overcoming the challenges the game presents without the items it expects you to have, it doesn't make much sense to not count them just because you started with them
[6:54 AM] erubi: you can clearly see the problems with only counting items you collect in the max% nsj category. if we only count items that you go through the act of collecting, in principle max% nsj should just be 97%. 100% -sj -gfmc compound and -hive chamber b. in practice, because you can collect hive chamber b if you do item loss this doesn't actually happen, but the principle is still the same. in a category about overcoming the game's challenges without the items it expects, it doesn't make sense to let you keep items without counting them
[7:11 AM] erubi: as to why 6% happened in the first place, there are two reasons for it, both of which are pretty good:
before ILS was discovered, there was absolutely no reason not to count based off the percentage counter as there was no instance of it not counting when it "should"
before ILS was discovered, low% was 14 items and within that was every item that you started with alongside amber translator and dark suit

when ILS was discovered and the percent was dropped to 6%, it allowed you to skip violet, amber translator and dark suit, which actually made the category harder. amber didn't really do much other than allow you to get morph ball bombs, and dark suit skip wasn't viable at the time without ils (I believe boost guardian was the problem but I could be wrong)

ILS actually made the run harder and more interesting, and even if you didn't count based off the percentage counter and chose to count the starting items, ILS was still the optimal strategy for skipping items and so it didn't matter
[7:20 AM] erubi: neither of those are the case anymore. 4% not counting items you collect before hitting item loss is the reason 6% is still on the leaderboards, and now no ILS low% can skip nearly every item ILS low% can (with the exception of violet, which doesn't really do much other than let you get to agon) as well as two of the starting items
[7:26 AM] erubi: if we were doing max% no boost ball or max% no spider ball, you would not be able to do ILS as that would undermine the purpose of the category. at the time ILS actually enhanced low%, but now that the situation has changed the same thing applies here
[7:51 AM] Cody7737: :artinBooty:
[1:41 PM] MrMiguel: Someone: Having a really professional talk about a well known topic to share with everyone.

Cody:
[1:42 PM] erubi: erubiH
[3:21 PM] Vertigo: no more floating in transport to temple grounds for 10 item
[3:26 PM] MrMiguel: how
[3:29 PM] MrMiguel: Ok so something I don't get
[3:29 PM] MrMiguel: Why can't you get Bombs before Dark Beam in 10% again?
[3:30 PM] Dyceron: youre forced to get amber to leave
[3:30 PM] MrMiguel: Why?
[3:30 PM] Dyceron: because the door locks
[3:30 PM] MrMiguel: Even reloading the room?
[3:30 PM] Dyceron: yes
[3:31 PM] MrMiguel: welp that's new to me
[3:31 PM] Dyceron: it was most likely put in place so a player would know to get the translator after arriving at each areas temple
[3:32 PM] MrMiguel: What if you do the fight without being transitioned in the room?
[3:35 PM] erubi: I would guess that the death cutscene repositions you inside the room
[3:36 PM] MrMiguel: The door locks when you start the fight
[3:36 PM] erubi: no it doesn't?
[3:36 PM] MrMiguel: Does it?
[3:36 PM] MrMiguel: Oh well
[3:36 PM] MrMiguel: I was about to say
[3:37 PM] erubi: in my 8:16 I get drops of the kids in temple access several times during the fight because I didn't know the proper way to kill bomb man
[3:37 PM] MrMiguel: If it locks when the fight starts, it wouldn't do anything since you're not actually in the room
[3:37 PM] Dyceron: i think it locks when you grab bombs
[3:37 PM] MrMiguel: I gotta test this
[3:38 PM] erubi: I'm pretty sure it does as well. I remember testing killing him and then leaving without collecting bombs, and it restarts the fight
[3:38 PM] Dyceron: thats how most fights in the game work
[3:38 PM] Dyceron: if you dont collect the item from the boss the boss respawns
[3:38 PM] erubi: I know that grapple beam doesn't drop if you do that though
[3:38 PM] Dyceron: yep
[3:38 PM] erubi: I think bombs do though
[3:39 PM] Dyceron: spider guardian respawns if you reload the room
[3:40 PM] Dyceron: its why we require collection of the boss item for the boss requirement categories because getting the item changes the state of the respective rooms and the bosses never respawn
[3:43 PM] Vertigo: https://youtu.be/o7IBMR5IliY
YouTube
gdVertigo
Transport to Torvus Bog (sanc) SW without SA

[3:44 PM] Dyceron: amazing
[3:45 PM] Vertigo: this saves a lot of time compared to temple grounds. more than 15 minutes i think?
[3:47 PM] MrMiguel: What the fuck is this game anymore
[3:48 PM] Vertigo: i think you wallcrawl to reactor core?
[3:48 PM] erubi: yeah wallcrawl past the pb door
[3:49 PM] MrMiguel: So no more floating?
[3:49 PM] Vertigo: no more floating to enter sanc yes
[3:50 PM] erubi: this would lose some time leaving sanctuary though, because you would have to wallcrawl to the elevator in sanctuary entrance
[3:50 PM] erubi: wait no nvm
[3:50 PM] erubi: you have to do that anyway
[3:50 PM] Dyceron: i wonder if that could be used in other runs :thinking:
[3:50 PM] erubi: you don't have cannonball when entering
[3:51 PM] MrMiguel: Or do you?
[3:51 PM] MrMiguel: :Vsauce:
[3:51 PM] erubi: you can do sandcanyon but it's slow as shit
[3:51 PM] erubi: also not really useful for any part of the run before sanctuary
[3:51 PM] MrMiguel: That's not even an option
[3:51 PM] Dyceron: it is
[3:51 PM] erubi: there is one part where it would be useful, light beam wallcrawl
[3:51 PM] Dyceron: but its stupidly slow
[3:52 PM] erubi: but you don't have bombs :frowning:
[3:52 PM] Dyceron: my guess is getting sandcanyon cannonball takes many hours
[3:52 PM] Dyceron: so not exactly fast imo
[3:53 PM] Vertigo: well it wouldnt be useful in the light beam wallcrawl anyway
[3:53 PM] Vertigo: you at the bottom of each room for the entire wallcrawl
[3:53 PM] MrMiguel: Wait hold on
[3:53 PM] erubi: if you had bombs you could bomb jump along the top, but you don't
[3:54 PM] MrMiguel: Wouldn't sandcanyon reload when you go high enough and fall down again?
[3:54 PM] MrMiguel: lol
[3:54 PM] Dyceron: no?
[3:54 PM] Dyceron: youd walk away from the box
[3:54 PM] MrMiguel: You're underestimating how long Proximity Loads reach
[3:54 PM] MrMiguel: I've done a couple of Room Randos and they are ridiculously long
[3:54 PM] Dyceron: it doesnt matter if sandcanyon reloads
[3:55 PM] Dyceron: if youre not in the box you wont fall back down
[3:55 PM] MrMiguel: You could even start aether jumping at a certain point
[3:55 PM] erubi: I think he's saying reload sand canyon and aether jump
[3:55 PM] erubi: ^
[3:56 PM] Vertigo: it really doesnt change anything if you got cannon ball early
[3:56 PM] Vertigo: it would just mean you can go straight for screw attack when you enter sanc
[3:57 PM] Vertigo: its just faster doing cannonball in sanc
[3:57 PM] erubi: yeah and you'd only have to wallcrawl from hall of combat mastery to power junction
[3:57 PM] erubi: which probably saves 1-2 minutes at most over wallcrawling all the way to the the elevator
[3:59 PM] erubi: definitely not worth over just getting in in worker's path
[4:01 PM] MrMiguel: How are we even considering Sandcanyon cannonball?
[4:06 PM] erubi: because I said "you don't have cannonball when entering", and then you said "or do you", and then I said "you can do sandcanyon but it's slow as shit"
[4:06 PM] MrMiguel: I meant if there was another reasonable way to get cannonball
[4:07 PM] erubi: define reasonable
[4:07 PM] MrMiguel: Not a method that takes like 4 hours
[4:07 PM] HeadshotTAS: funny you guys are talking about sandcanyon cannon ball, because I was literally just looking into a way to do it TAS that doesn't take a million hours
[4:07 PM] HeadshotTAS: in fact I know for a fact right now that it is at least TAS possible
[4:07 PM] MrMiguel: Oh?
[4:07 PM] erubi: erubiF
[4:08 PM] HeadshotTAS: it involves using the bomb guardian's death cutscene to warp you back after unloading sandcanyon
[4:08 PM] erubi: you can get gfmc compound by using infinite speed to unload the cannon and then walking into the map to fix the camera matrix
[4:08 PM] erubi: but you skip boost
[4:09 PM] erubi: and so no infinite speed until after you get cannonball
[4:26 PM] MrMiguel: I think I found a setup for Central Station Access
[4:29 PM] MrMiguel: Holy shit I got it
[4:29 PM] MrMiguel: It works
[4:29 PM] Vertigo: for the bsj?
[4:30 PM] Vertigo: its not a hard bsj and it already has a setup
[4:30 PM] MrMiguel: Yes
[4:30 PM] MrMiguel: For fuck's sake
[4:30 PM] Vertigo: you just roll up a wall and then you get an iu
[4:30 PM] MrMiguel: Do you really call that a setup?
[4:31 PM] Vertigo: you setup the camera to get it stuck in a good spot
[4:31 PM] MrMiguel: Where tho
[4:31 PM] MrMiguel: That's the question
[4:31 PM] MrMiguel: I made up an angle and spot where to be
[4:31 PM] Vertigo: the one video that documents the bsj
[4:32 PM] MrMiguel: So when you morph you just hold on an angle and you get it
[4:32 PM] Vertigo: you morph moving foward and then hold down left
[4:33 PM] Vertigo: its not a hard bsj so use whatever setup you want
[4:51 PM] MrMiguel: How can you even say this "b"sj is easy?
[4:51 PM] MrMiguel: Even with my setup I have a hard time doing it
[4:53 PM] Vertigo: then your setup is bad? idk
[4:53 PM] MrMiguel: Don't say that
[4:53 PM] MrMiguel: I got it once
[4:53 PM] MrMiguel: It's the jump
[4:53 PM] MrMiguel: I get like super close I even move like I got into a slope and I still fall
[4:54 PM] Vertigo: then youre unmorphing too early?
[4:54 PM] Im_Zlow: How can you even say Zlow Warping is easy? Even with my setup I have a hard time doing it.
[4:55 PM] erubi: LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
[4:55 PM] MrMiguel: Ok dipshit you're not even contributing to anything
[4:55 PM] erubi: jesus fucking christ
[4:55 PM] MrMiguel: So stfu
[4:55 PM] Vertigo: chill miguel hes just being a meme
[4:57 PM] MrMiguel: He's meming me tho
[4:57 PM] MrMiguel: And he's being an asshole about it
[4:57 PM] erubi: well's he's half meming you and half meming himself
[4:57 PM] MrMiguel: How is that any better???
[4:58 PM] erubi: it's not mean he's just trying to be funny
[4:58 PM] Im_Zlow: How can you say meming myself is any better? Even with my wording I have a hard time not being an asshole
[4:58 PM] MrMiguel: he's just trying to be funny
[4:58 PM] MrMiguel: he's just trying to be funny
[4:58 PM] MrMiguel: he's just trying to be funny
[4:59 PM] MrMiguel: Ha
[4:59 PM] MrMiguel: It reminds me of when I first joined I did the same
[4:59 PM] MrMiguel: I got banned for like 3 months
[5:00 PM] Im_Zlow: LMAO This again? If you were being funny you wouldn't have been banned LOOOOOOOL Not even humorous dumbass try it bro. I spammed memes YEARS AGO
[5:01 PM] erubi: ok this is getting a little out control lmao
[5:01 PM] Sugnim91: ya was just gonna say does it need to continue??
[5:02 PM] Kalibur: LMAO This again? If it was getting out of control we'd be stopping LOOOOOL Not even out of control dumbass look at it bro. It was in control YEARS AGO
[5:02 PM] Vertigo: it needed to stop after the first message zlow sent
[6:20 PM] TheWeakestLink64: Why are we being so hostile? All Vertigo said was "I have a different set up for that trick that is easier." No need for hostility.