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  1. [SLYCE is recruiting]
  3. Circle of Two are traitors.
  5. It isn’t often that we’re treated to display of callous backstabbing that CO2 so recently perpetrated. Despite the reputation of an EVE full of knives in the dark, most entities that currently exist in 0.0 stick to word and deal with reasonable good faith. This isn’t because of some mistaken idea of e-honor, it’s a matter of the almost Darwinian natural selection of alliances. Traitors have difficulty finding friends, loner alliances tend to get picked off. A worthy enemy garners respect, a traitor, scorn, and a staunch ally is worth their weight in gold.
  7. So it came as some surprise that CO2 opted for a mid-war betrayal mere minutes after our defense of their home soil.
  9. But betrayals are almost never a spur of the moment action. So it was in this case. And unlike even our enemies, diplomatic privilege in communications does not apply to traitors.
  11. No one is shackled in iron chains to the coalition. Members are welcome to leave if they so choose, and we have facilitated exits in the past on good terms. So why did CO2 opt for treachery?
  13. Now, for the rest of the story.
  15. “CO2 are loyal friends.” - Endie, April 2012
  17. Our story begins at the very beginning of April 2012. CO2 approached us for admittance into the coalition. Endie, and some of the other Bat Country guys who were formerly members of CO2, and had strong ties with them, told CO2 that they would make the case to the rest of the coalition to let them in. There was nothing unusual about this at the time and the BAT guys were up-front about their relations and historical ties with CO2 and their leadership. Through their advocacy, as well as the vouch of former Sky Marshal and Blackops leader TheAdj, the coalition decided to take a chance and give CO2 a shot.
  19. When I say, take a chance, what I mean is this--in April of 2012, CO2 had dropped to about 300 people. As gigx, CO2’s leader said at the time:
  21. [SLYCE is recruiting]
  24. [20:21:13] gigX > I forgot the time when I lead more then 100ppl in fleet
  25. [20:21:17] gigX > I miss that time
  27. They were desperate, and we as a coalition were in an empire building phase. We were racking up wins over historic enemies and steadily expanding our resources as a coalition. We figured, why not let them in and see what they’re made of?
  29. What’s the worst that can happen?
  31. Before I move onto the next phase of this story, here are some of the interesting logs from this time, which have a certain element of prophecy to them, though I’ve left out the handful of logs of gigx being thrilled with having 15-20 people in fleet:
  33. Gicer (spy-guy, BAT) summary of TS conversation, April 7th, 2012:
  35. They expressed a ton of interest at doing Black Ops style pvp and they also want to join fleets with the CFC and show up and get involved. I like the way they see this as a chance at more pvp and not a "where do we rat" jew heaven.
  37. They specifically stated that they do not want space at this time because they are small and have not earn't that right in the CFC yet. They also said that while a couple of systems to call home is a goal of theirs at some point, it is not their motivation.
  39. From discussions it seems that inclusion into the CFC will be the weapon to rebuild their alliance and train new people, while they do that they join fleets and intergrate into the CFC.
  41. I went over most of the rules / regs and how we work and they think that this is an amazing offer for them. This is important because Serbians have this immense sense of loyalty.
  43. Sara Rae (GSF Diplomat), August 8, 2012:
  45. (23:54:16) but a serious question looking at the war. After we are done with this one and got all these moons/sov what are you guys looking at to get out of it?
  46. (23:54:56) gigX: dunno m8
  47. (23:55:16) gigX: dont know what we can get
  48. (23:55:22) gigX: or what we earned
  49. (23:55:27) gigX: or did we earn
  50. (23:56:29) what would you like to get?
  51. (23:57:03) gigX: maybe one constalation would be fine
  52. (23:57:09) gigX: close to some camp route
  53. (23:57:41) and moons?
  54. (23:58:03) gigX: hmm dunno
  55. (23:58:22) if you could choose between those 2 sov or moons?
  56. (23:58:29) wich would you prefer?
  57. (23:58:31) gigX: sov
  58. (23:58:43) gigX: for industry guys
  59. (23:58:49) gigX: what we can do with moon
  60. (23:59:03) gigX: moon can be the problem in co2
  61. (23:59:09) gigX: since we have small corp numbers
  62. (23:59:34) so you wouldn ´t mind getting sov without moons?
  63. (23:59:59) because moons would something more ¨pain in the ass ¨
  64. (9-8-2012 0:00:03) to deal with
  65. (0:00:16) gigX: its hard to defend moons
  66. (0:00:25) gigX: specialy because co2 is eu tz
  67. (0:00:31) gigX: we are low on ppl
  68. (0:00:38) gigX: we need sov to rebuild alliance
  69. (0:00:49) gigX: bring more pvp corps and people
  70. (0:04:13) gigX: Atm all of that is away from CO2
  73. Sara Rae, Post-Tribute spoils discussion where we gave CO2 Tech moons and sov. Gigx notes the dangers of being greedy. October 27, 2012:
  75. (19:13:38) gigX: I already told ppl that I will lock all towers with tech
  76. (19:13:47) gigX: found a lot of greed ppl
  77. (19:14:00) gigX: they dont talk what we need to do
  78. (19:14:03) gigX: just about tech
  79. (19:14:11) yes to greedy
  80. (19:14:18) you will need to watch out with that
  81. (19:14:23) gigX: they already calculate
  82. (19:14:37) how much B per month it would be?
  83. (19:14:49) gigX: yea
  84. (19:14:58) gigX: but they dont talk about that when I`m on ts
  85. (19:15:44) gigX: because they know that I will give moons to goons if they start to be greedy
  86. (19:16:02) gigX: Most of ppl I know in RL
  87. (19:16:09) gigX: we see this game as pixel and fun
  88. (19:16:25) gigX: but some of them see this game tru isk
  89. (19:16:41) yes they only see the $.$
  91. More spoils discussion, November 5th 2012. Gigx again highlights greed and that some people play for the wrong reasons, money, and the right reasons, friendship and fun.
  93. [SLYCE is recruiting]
  96. (22:17:21) http://evemaps.dotla...nt/F-V9QW#const this constellation we were thinking on if you wanted it ofcourse
  97. (22:19:53) gigX: lol this is the best const in vale
  98. (22:20:22) gigX: but co2 still dont deserve that
  99. (22:20:43) gigX: first iwant to show co2 to cfc in full condition
  100. (22:21:09) gigX: and i realy want to start from that trib const
  101. (22:21:35) gigX: If you guys dont mind
  102. (22:21:43) It is up to you
  103. (22:21:46) gigX: We want to stay in tribute
  104. (22:21:57) wich ever you guys prefer
  105. (22:22:04) we dont want to force anything with you guys
  106. (22:22:13) and would like to listen to you
  107. (22:22:22) gigX: that const is good for carebearing
  108. (22:22:23) gigX: in vale
  109. (22:22:36) gigX: I cleared most of carebear from corp and alliance
  110. (22:22:44) gigX: I dont want to make same mistake
  111. (22:24:33) I really like that in you guys
  112. (22:25:07) gigX: tnx m8
  113. (22:25:33) if only every alliance was like you guys
  114. (22:42:46) some guys are just really greedy
  115. (22:43:05) gigX: well that was always problem in eve
  116. (22:43:13) gigX: someone playing for isk
  117. (22:43:23) gigX: someone for fun and friendship
  119. Gigx on Serbian mentality, and why people are wrong to go alone, November 28th, 2012:
  121. (19:17:06) Well I never got chance to shoot on serbians in EVE
  122. (19:17:29) and most of serbians in eve think that they can rule alone
  123. (19:17:32) in small corps
  124. (19:17:55) I dont like to hear "pro pvp players"
  125. (19:18:04) and they think they are pro
  126. (19:18:09) ugh
  127. (19:18:26) I dont like hear that eather
  128. (19:18:30) they are still in time
  129. (19:18:39) when you can go with 10 ppl and kill 30
  130. (19:18:53) without blob or hotdrop
  132. Now, a bit of a breather. I’ve left out a lot of logs, but from the above it should be easy to see why we enjoyed working with CO2 in the early years. They were full of spunk, eager to earn acceptance into the coalition, and valued friendship more than money. They didn’t ask for handouts, they asked for a chance to earn their place. I’ve also left out a lot of the coalition building bits where CD advised CO2 on how to better build and run their alliance. Every step of the way, we helped the plucky guys build their alliance and realize their potential. At this point in the story, CO2 is no longer in danger of collapse, has stabilized, and was now looking to expand from the starting point the coalition had given them--that they’d earned.
  134. Now, back to the logs.
  136. Opening recruitment, the importance of M-O, and the first signs of trouble with TNT. January 14th, 2013.
  138. (21:58:59) how is everything going?
  139. (21:59:32) Well I give job to Da Winci to start looking for new corporations
  140. (21:59:54) Also I told him if he have any questions about something that he can contact and ask you
  141. (22:00:02) Is that ok?
  142. (22:00:26) sure
  143. (22:00:30) he can always talk to me
  144. (22:00:40) maybe Ill talk to him first to break the ice
  145. (22:00:49) http://co2.eve-kill....kll_id=15878426
  146. (22:00:58) PVP is improved in CO2
  147. (22:01:05) nice one
  148. (22:01:32) http://co2.eve-kill....kll_id=15862269
  149. (22:01:58) Nice you have enough pvp nearby with taisy?
  150. (22:02:17) Well we got some trouble with TNT guys
  151. (22:02:27) because they fighting for loot
  152. (22:02:32) but I ignored that
  153. (22:02:48) and we started raping everything around M-O including M-O
  154. (22:03:16) Any fleet who enter in tribute tru m-o
  155. (22:03:22) they need to fight us first
  157. Sara Rae, taking the next step toward integration, January 30th, 2013.
  159. (22:56:44) I talked to da winci abit totday
  160. (22:56:46) today*
  161. (22:58:01) I want to get co2 more intergrated with the cfc
  162. (23:03:11) How do you mean "integrated"
  163. (23:04:01) working more together, seeing you guys more in fleets, you fcing cfc fleets or EG fleets
  164. (23:04:05) that kind of stuff
  165. (23:05:03) some people have the feeling at the moment that CO2 is working more on itself and I wnat to get that image out of the way
  166. (23:05:44) Well they are wrong
  167. (23:06:09) If co2 working for itself then Its fine with me to have 20ppl in my roam
  168. (23:06:34) But I want to show cfc that we can always help with atleast 50-100 ppl in cfc fleets
  169. (23:07:18) co2 should join the next european goonion deployment
  170. (23:07:30) I`m waiting for that
  172. And more diplomatic attempts at integration, Feburary 4th, 2013:
  174. (13:18:54) we will have a welcome thread in the EG section for co2
  175. (13:18:55) Dear EG Brothers and Sisters, we are gathered here today to welcome into our hallowed ranks our fine allies: Circle of 2.
  177. Through the good grace of Dear Leader, GigX, Sara Rae and your humble co-conspirator, myself, we would like to officially welcome our venerable Circle of 2 dudes and dudettes to our merry little subforum. While CO2 have been faithful and trusted allies of us for quite a while, we've never been formally introduced and as we are soon to see a large influx of CO2 members into our ranks, it was thought fitting that each squad get to welcome the other in the way they are accustomed.
  179. For EG, this is constant deafening worthless posts. Our most popular threads are those wherein we say nothing but a random word or tell everyone how many trains we've taken on a Wednesday. For CO2, well, I have no idea what you people do. And this is why this thread exists.
  181. This thread will be for CO2 people to introduce themselves and begin to contribute to a great dialogue between the two groups. Hopefully this dialogue will involve much shitposting and mutual crap flinging.
  183. EG are currently in the process of fully deploying to Delve as there are many TEST that deserve death and there are many of us who deserve to kill them. CO2 will be joining us DAAN SAAF and so will need to start looking at our doctrine ships and our deployment details threads.
  187. Also, there'll be a prize for the greatest/awfullest post based solely on my whims.
  189. I end now with a quote from Sara Rae, EG hero and CO2 Diplo:
  191. "I would like to welcome CO2 to EG after working for some months with these guys. I would like to say that they are good dudes that would work really good with EG. Have fun and lets kill some test."
  192. (13:19:52) sec I just make coffe
  193. (13:19:59) sure
  194. (13:21:10) This thread will be for CO2 people to introduce themselves and begin to contribute to a great dialogue between the two groups.
  195. (13:21:13) hehehe
  196. (13:21:24) good luck with that
  198. First rumors of embezzlement, February 19th, 2013. It was here where corporations within CO2 started complaining to us about finances, and started looking to leave. Remember this detail, it’ll be important later.
  200. (9:31:52) morning
  201. (9:36:16) we will need to talk asap
  202. (14:22:47) you here m8
  203. (14:22:57) yes I am
  204. (14:23:46) I see you needed me
  205. (14:23:58) yes indeed
  206. (14:24:13) we got some strange news from co2 that I wanted to check
  207. (14:24:26) about?
  208. (14:24:52) income and directors using tech for themselfs for the most part
  209. (14:25:00) and a corp looking to leave co2
  210. (14:25:43) so that got me worried
  211. (14:25:56) what corp told you that
  212. (14:26:25) which corp do you thinkg it is?
  213. (14:26:28) think*
  214. (14:26:45) noone have access to tech exept me
  215. (14:27:03) then we making reactions with other corps
  216. (14:27:19) making nanotransistors an fulleride
  217. (14:27:43) and selling on alliance wallet
  218. (14:27:50) would you say the tech is about 25b/month?
  219. (14:28:12) something like that
  220. (14:28:31) and we using ally wallet for bills
  221. (14:28:35) and fuel
  222. (14:28:44) ofcourse
  223. (14:28:46) upgrades in ihubs
  224. (14:28:56) thats before sov + pos feul and a such
  225. (14:29:00) alliance wallet paying everithing
  226. (14:29:18) also srp right?
  227. (14:29:32) or you replace hulls?
  228. (14:29:48) srp?
  230. [SLYCE is recruiting]
  233. (14:30:01) ship replacement programm
  234. (14:30:10) sorry for the shorting of it
  235. (14:30:28) We are still not able to make srp
  236. (14:31:26) I`m spending mostly my own isk then alliance isk for ships
  237. (14:32:05) so I`m realy interested who tell that directors using tech for themself
  238. (14:33:12) I would like to know first which corp isn ´t really happy your alliance first?
  239. (14:33:28) so you maybe have an idea who ti is?
  240. (14:35:20) well most of corps are not happy
  241. (14:35:27) because I`m raging on them
  242. (14:35:33) they dont come in fleets
  243. (14:35:49) just carebearing
  245. At this point, CO2 started complaining about being poor, and not being able to fund SRP. Aryth and the rest of our finance team started digging into it, and came to the conclusion that CO2 was somehow wasting their money. Sara Rae in the meantime sought other ways to help them, and continued to offer the help and support we could, including that of our expert finance team.
  247. March 4th, 2013:
  249. (14:42:06) did da winci talk to you about the propalse I gave him about getting more tech if possible?
  250. (14:42:15) nope
  251. (14:42:56) you guys don ´t have a real SRP(ship replacement program) at the moment right?
  252. (14:43:06) No we dont
  253. (14:43:11) we working mostly with donations
  254. (14:43:21) and bills are payed from tech
  255. (14:43:43) yep indeed
  256. (14:44:07) Well true is if we put upgrades for jammers
  257. (14:44:19) then it will not be posible for srp
  258. (14:44:56) so what I was looking at was maybe get the help of our finance team to look at your finances and that they can help you with tweaking stuff and if they find that you really can ´t fund srp. We can look at the option to get you more tech moons.
  259. (14:46:15) That would be ok
  260. (14:46:18) what I need to do
  261. (14:47:20) I will talk with our finance team first to see what info they need
  262. (14:47:43) Everything what they need I will give them
  263. (14:48:01) because I realy want to see are my ppl doing good with current mining and income stuff
  264. (14:48:22) since most of my players are in delve
  265. (14:49:02) our finance team is really good, which you maybe already know
  266. (14:49:10) I know that
  267. (14:49:33) yesterday some guys droped about 7 large towers for moon minning
  268. (14:49:50) and I realy want to see from GSF perspective
  269. (14:49:58) what they are doing
  270. (14:52:36) for reactions?
  271. (14:52:43) yup
  272. (14:53:04) we even have reaction guides how to setup the perfect towers + spreadsheets for proffit and such
  273. (14:53:40) I know
  274. (14:54:01) I started with industry guys to start building Battleships
  275. (14:54:04) for alliance
  276. (14:54:15) but there is also 1000+ ppl in alliance
  277. (14:54:26) numbers are not like before
  278. (14:55:04) yep also that
  279. (14:58:11) ofcourse we want to see you have numbers first ofcourse if you see my point
  280. (14:58:27) sure
  281. (14:58:29) but I will try to make point about getting you guys more tech if you look dirty poor
  282. (14:59:19) Look I realy want to see from your side
  283. (14:59:25) whats going on with co2 income
  285. [SLYCE is recruiting]
  288. By March 6th, Aryth had pegged the right answer.. Our recommendations for action were ignored, but we’ll get to that later. Much later.
  290. On leadership, April 3rd, 2013
  292. (10:11:20) the thing that is going with co2 now it isn ´t going to stay the serbian group of maf... friends anymore. With this growth it will be more.
  293. (10:12:48) It a large group of players under the banner of CO2 leaded by you
  294. (10:13:40) leading an larger alliance is different then a small one
  295. (10:13:58) true
  296. (10:15:34) The changes or things best to lead a bigger alliance, mittens wrote a nice tips and tricks for it. Read this and if you have any questions please ask them. They cover most of things that will make co2 stronger.
  297. (10:21:01) I hope this helps
  298. (10:21:15) reading
  299. (10:21:22) interesting
  300. (10:37:56) oke good
  301. (11:03:03) any questions or remarks on the article?
  302. (11:03:21) well I readed
  303. (11:03:26) and its very good
  304. (11:03:45) need to put everything on paper
  306. This was also when we started getting contacts from corporations within the quickly growing CO2 that they were sick of being bossed around and being treated like children by CO2 leadership. Some of those corps are still with CO2, some are not. Throughout it all, Sara Rae and CD smoothed tensions and made peace. He attempted to help Gigx and others in CO2 hone their leadership abilities, abilities they’d need to manage their growing alliance. In all respects, Sara went above and beyond the call of duty as a diplomat to integrate CO2 and help them navigate the complexities of coalition life. It is not overstatement to say that his support of CO2 was key to their growth during this period, as much as the assets of space and moons that they’d been given. Back to the logs.
  308. Sebastien Saintfrusquin was added to coalition coordination channels on April 7th, 2013.
  310. A year into their tenure in the coalition, we were still running their IT for them. We offered to help them set up their own stuff. May 22nd, 2013.
  312. (8:43:12 AM) Serbian culture, their version of IT is the messenger pigeon...
  313. (8:43:45 AM) Nina Blaze: lol
  314. (8:44:17 AM) Pretty sure we don't have that
  315. (8:45:39 AM) Getting us a forum was already such an achievement, I wouldn't expect us to get something that awesome before next year or so...
  316. (8:48:18 AM) Nina Blaze: lol
  317. (8:48:19 AM) Nina Blaze: fair enough
  318. (8:48:27 AM) Nina Blaze: let me see if I can find some dudes to help with that
  319. (8:48:33 AM) Nina Blaze: do you guys have ~anITguy~ in general?
  320. (8:48:47 AM) That's a very good question
  321. (8:50:49 AM) Nina Blaze: so, going forward though
  322. (8:50:50 AM) Our TS is run by BAT, so literally by you guys
  323. (8:50:53 AM) Nina Blaze: lol
  324. (8:51:03 AM) Nina Blaze: fair enough
  325. (8:51:33 AM) Beside that, gigx either is the guy or will designate someone for it
  326. (8:51:53 AM) Nina Blaze: CO2, comparatively is very small alliance. So these sorts of things are expected to happen as you ~grow~
  327. (8:51:59 AM) Nina Blaze: yeah, I'll talk with Gigx some about it
  328. (8:52:03 AM) Nina Blaze: see if we can help
  330. And this is where the Fountain War kicks off.
  332. More mentorship, Seb getting started with coordination. June 6th, 2013.
  334. (22:43:54) are you backseating because I saw you in the command channel?
  335. (22:50:39) not exaclty
  336. (22:50:49) I talked with theadj
  337. (22:51:44) and?
  338. (22:51:56) and since I have little experience he told me to be on command chan
  339. (22:52:03) as much as possible
  340. (22:52:15) so basically I'm an apprenctice
  341. (22:52:45) ah ofcourse
  342. (22:52:49) got to start somewhere
  343. (22:52:54) yep
  344. (23:09:43) I'm moved
  345. (23:09:56) CO2 commited ALL its supers here, all 10 of them
  346. (23:10:01) I could cry
  348. On the 20th of June, CO2 killed a Black Legion Tower in the north. For context, Black Legion had been hitting our assets in the north while we were fighting in Fountain. The war was not going well in the south, and bouncing back and forth was severely hurting our ability to either defend our space or prosecute the war. After Elo Knight wiped out our TFI fleet, we signed a merc contract with Black Legion, effectively eliminating the threat to our back yard, and allowing us to focus on Fountain completely. This was important as we were still very much outnumbered in Fountain, and losing ground.
  350. After the contract was signed, Gigx pulled CO2 back to “eliminate hostile towers” in the north, which were of course the old staging towers Black Legion had been using to hit our holdings. With BL under contract, there was no threat from those staging towers, but Gigx temporary pulled his forces from the war--and jeopardized the coalition’s chances in the war and our newly signed merc contract with BL--to appease his pride.
  352. This was the first sign that CO2’s mentality had started to shift away from “how can we help the coalition and prove ourselves” to “fuck you, got mine.”
  354. Wherein we, for the first time, see Gigx’s true greed on display. For some additional context, this was after the Tech nerf, and r64’s and space was being reshuffled around the entire coalition after the Fountain War. We’d also lost a fair number of moon holdings in the north which we had not yet taken back. The realities of the coalition and the war came second, from here on out it’s all CO2 self interest and only escalates. Note the excessive tone change: August 26th, 2013.
  356. 23:41:01) Hey dude
  357. (23:41:06) sup I hear you are not happy?
  358. (23:41:48) Ofcourse I`m not happy
  359. (23:41:57) why ?
  360. (23:42:13) Fountain war ended
  361. (23:42:21) we got loses we spend isk
  362. (23:42:24) but ok for what
  363. (23:42:33) to go now on another deployment
  364. (23:42:55) and not getting anything
  365. (23:43:09) I`m not greedy
  366. (23:43:11) we never expected to take more then fountain but now that it will trown in our lap
  367. (23:43:16) we are going to take it
  368. (23:43:28) Do you know how many R64 co2 have
  369. (23:43:31) and we want to do spoils at once and not do fountain en then delve
  370. (23:43:34) I know dude
  371. (23:43:38) 1
  372. (23:43:48) BL and 401k took all of them
  373. (23:43:55) and when we started to getting back
  374. (23:44:19) I got info that GSF want us to stop taking our moons back from venal
  375. (23:44:34) we went to fountain with one r64
  376. (23:44:45) but you knew about the situation in delve right from the autocrat channel?
  377. (23:45:33) nope
  378. (23:45:36) I dont know
  379. (23:45:41) and also I didnt ask
  380. (23:45:58) its has been talked about it in the channel from what I know
  381. (23:46:07) so I thought that you knew about the situation
  382. (23:47:12) like with the tribute/vale war
  383. (23:47:17) I know what mittani saying on skype
  384. (23:47:20) we waited with spoils till we had vale also
  385. (23:47:27) but I also see what other guys talking about spoils
  386. (23:47:37) and how much moons they already have
  387. (23:47:38) so far only li3 and fa got their spoils
  388. (23:47:45) and how much they will get
  389. (23:47:53) what should I talk on skype
  390. (23:48:04) I can just read
  391. (23:48:33) 1sec restarting jabber its hanging
  392. (23:50:17) sorry I can´t do much about this situation
  393. (23:50:21) its not in my hands
  394. (23:50:28) ok who can do
  395. (23:50:28) its all comming from higher up the chain
  396. (23:50:51) talk to mittens or draghkar
  397. (23:50:54) because I would like to help
  398. (23:51:03) but my hands are tight also
  399. (23:51:24) CO2 helped alot
  400. (23:51:30) we are always with CFC
  401. (23:51:36) with numbers we have
  402. (23:51:47) I think we are doing very good
  403. (23:52:05) you helped with numbers but it wasnt really good if you looked at the rest
  404. (23:52:09) compared to the others
  405. (23:52:36) Other alliances have more resourse
  406. (23:52:40) and more space
  407. (23:52:50) I cant recruit
  408. (23:53:01) because I dont have place where to put new ppl
  410. Hmm… I wonder what this could be about. Finance directors trying to force people out and gain control? December 22nd, 2013
  412. 11:09:15) Hey dude
  413. (11:09:17) whats going on?
  414. (11:10:15) nothing much for me
  415. (11:10:23) some internal drama for the alliance
  416. (11:10:35) so I heard
  417. (11:10:55) I happen to be apolitical as they come, so everything I know is hearsay since I'm very rarely involved in such matters
  418. (11:11:28) yeah I know maybe better at times
  419. (11:11:43) seems like shadow directorship (basically the main money makers) are pushing out the actual directors one by one, from what I can see
  420. (11:12:17) and if what I hear is true, gigX totally blundered yesterday by trying to wash his hands from the issue one time too many
  421. (11:12:21) you mean mmarlon?
  422. (11:12:51) exalien more than mmarlon I think
  423. (11:12:58) ah oke
  424. (11:13:01) but mmarlon wants exalien to stay
  425. (11:13:20) so pushes more for exalien then the directors
  426. (11:13:34) pushes more for conciliation I'd say
  427. (11:13:54) and exalien is not very conciliatory
  428. (11:14:03) so this ain't working
  429. (11:14:10) so it will keep happing
  430. (11:14:17) not really
  431. (11:14:54) gigX tried to take the high road yesterday and told everyone to stop the drama, but it will cost us our most valuable directors I'm afraid
  432. (11:16:36) I would be really sad if it would end like this
  433. (11:16:49) yeah
  434. (11:16:57) no idea how shit can go south so damn fast
  435. (11:17:09) yeah I¨m asking myself that also
  436. (11:17:27) do you have at least good news on the war front ?
  437. (11:17:42) we have a plan on how to defeat the shpere
  438. (11:18:14) tell me it involves a guy cutting the power at some houses in deep MidWest
  440. More on that, same date.
  442. (11:11:16) Morning gigx
  443. (11:11:53) Morning Sara
  444. (11:12:07) how is it going?
  445. (11:13:10) Well we finished moving into Curse
  446. (11:13:22) now waiting for titan
  447. (11:13:44) ah oke so waiting that you can bridge from hemin
  448. (11:13:52) yea
  449. (11:14:38) I hear there are some problems with you guys? Whats going on?
  450. (11:15:07) What kind of problems?
  451. (11:15:16) You need to be little directly
  452. (11:16:12) With missy and da winci apparently
  453. (11:16:23) ohh
  454. (11:16:31) Well some stupid issues
  455. (11:16:35) that came to me
  456. (11:17:14) I punished all involved with ISK
  457. (11:17:45) Now Da Winci is mad
  458. (11:18:01) because Da Winci was requesting kicking guy from alliance
  459. (11:18:17) which will evolve to leaving one good corp in co2
  460. (11:18:52) and also destroy corp who is making income in alliance
  461. (11:20:37) Yeah this is not fun or good
  462. (11:20:57) both options
  463. (11:21:13) Da Winci needed to request CEO meeting
  464. (11:21:21) and talk with CEO of that member
  465. (11:21:33) not fighting with member
  467. 28th of January, 2014. Seb loses a titan, CO2 takes up a donation drive to replace it since the alliance is still mysteriously poor. Ongoing at this time, the Curse War in the south, which CO2 had withdrawn from to again fight Black Legion over towers in Venal. Then Sky Marshal Blawrf Mctaggart brokered a compromise between CO2 and Lucia to get CO2 to fight with the coalition again in the south.
  469. Apparently real life stuff is okay in CO2? Here’s hoping it was idle boasting. February 12th, 2014.
  471. [19:41:05] SaraRae: Evening gigx
  472. [19:41:11] SaraRae: we banned some bl spies in co2
  473. [19:41:19] Darko Subotic - gigX: hmmm
  474. [19:41:24] Darko Subotic - gigX: do we know who are they
  475. [19:41:33] SaraRae: I have a list
  476. [19:41:39] Darko Subotic - gigX: can you show me
  477. [19:41:46] SaraRae: CO2 - Danijel Aegon Zagorec - Singu from Black Legion
  478. CO2 - Keira Kurvora - Zi'el Aubaris from Black Legion
  479. [19:42:49] Darko Subotic - gigX: Digi told me
  480. [19:43:01] Darko Subotic - gigX: Danijel Aegon is from Croatia
  481. [19:43:11] Darko Subotic - gigX: my guys founded his street address
  482. [19:43:23] Darko Subotic - gigX: so we waiting him now to login
  483. [19:43:34] SaraRae: and if he logs in what then?
  484. [19:43:48] Darko Subotic - gigX: we checking one more thing
  485. [19:43:53] Darko Subotic - gigX: but anyway
  486. [19:44:04] Darko Subotic - gigX: we will visit him soon
  487. [19:44:49] SaraRae: irl?
  488. [19:44:56] Darko Subotic - gigX: ofcourse
  489. [19:44:59] Darko Subotic - gigX: he is close
  490. [19:45:19] Darko Subotic - gigX: We cannot punish him in game
  491. [19:45:24] Darko Subotic - gigX: but irl we can
  493. Feburary 18th, 2014, TheJudge added as CO2 diplomat.
  495. Theadj having a perfectly reasonable response upon finding out Lucian James was in CO2 and in his channels. For those of you who know Theadj, you’ll know that this was him being exceptionally restrained and diplomatic. March 6th, 2014.
  497. (6:48:38 PM) would you care to elaborate on the Lucian James incident few hours ago please?
  499. (6:49:00 PM) i'm aware that he made some stupid mistakes
  501. (6:49:59 PM) so i'm totally okay with him being kicked from gfsc
  503. (6:50:46 PM) the other part of the conversation and the banning from RC are uncalled for I think
  505. (10:47:38 PM) that piece of shit shouldn't even be in the CFC, much less on our services
  507. (3/6/2014 3:09:44 AM) I'm sure you'll find bigger turds within the cfc. For now he is part of my alliance and you might start to rethink the way you apparently choose to talk to your allies.
  509. (3:10:44 AM) Its not the first time your language isn't really what I expect it to be for a guy in your position
  511. (3:11:31 AM) you are free to complain to CD about it
  513. (3:11:36 AM) results will be the same
  515. (3:11:47 AM) nice umbrella you have there
  517. (3:11:54 AM) I was talking to you
  519. (3:12:05 AM) already had my talk with CD
  521. (3:12:14 AM) it's almost like he's a persona non grata who got into an ally, which we can't do anything about
  523. (3:12:18 AM) doesn't mean I have to tolerate him
  525. (3:12:29 AM) you're free to recruit who you wish
  527. (3:12:45 AM) just don't be surprised when people like him dont' get a warm welcome
  529. (3:12:50 AM) true, but you went really out of your way to ban him
  531. (3:13:01 AM) the RC access he needs to have
  533. (3:13:02 AM) im thorough
  535. (3:13:15 AM) no, that was overreacting
  537. More finance stuff, March 17th, 2014.
  539. (4:32:24 PM) Gicer: Shame, So I needed to talk to you or Da Winci about mmarlon.
  540. (4:33:44 PM) yes you can
  541. (4:34:23 PM) Gicer: Ok, am I right that he runs most of your POS setup and moon mining?
  542. (4:34:52 PM) yes
  543. (4:34:56 PM) more then 400 towers
  544. (4:35:04 PM) Gicer: Wow,
  545. (4:35:52 PM) Gicer: Ok, so aryth think's that hes keeping a LOT of your minerals and keeping money from you. Like "fuck Goons" ammounts of money.
  546. (4:36:28 PM) Gicer: From looking at the finances, do you want me to look into it for you. Or would you rather talk to him yourself?
  547. (4:36:56 PM) I realy didnt undestand how he doing this
  548. (4:37:09 PM) but lots of people who working on those 400 towers
  549. (4:37:17 PM) taking money for that work
  550. (4:37:26 PM) and sharing 50/50 with alliance
  551. (4:42:08 PM) Gicer: So you let people take 50% of POS materials?
  552. (4:42:30 PM) They making profit on empty moons
  553. (4:42:48 PM) They buying moon stuff from jita
  554. (4:42:52 PM) react in co2 space
  555. (4:42:57 PM) and sharing profit 50/50
  556. (4:48:52 PM) sec let me find finance report
  557. (4:48:54 PM) for last month
  558. (4:48:59 PM) Gicer: Ok
  559. (4:53:55 PM) Gicer: Here's my concern. How do you hold people to 50/50. I mean your method of running a POS network is very similar to running a corruption network dealing with backhanders. And the fact is that corruption will never stick to a 50/50 rule.
  560. (4:54:07 PM) Gicer: Aryth thinks you guys should be a lot richer than you are.
  561. (4:56:12 PM) I never go deep into those reaction stuff
  562. (4:56:32 PM) I know that people who hold 10-15 towers each in mmarlon corp
  563. (4:56:34 PM) Gicer: Well, it's quite possible mmarlon is richer than CO2
  564. (4:56:44 PM) getting paid for 1bil isk per month
  565. (4:57:06 PM) MMarlon was always richer then CO2
  566. (4:57:17 PM) he hold plex on jita market
  567. (4:57:21 PM) and lots of stuff
  569. From “we don’t need that much” to “give me allied space. March 17th, 21014.
  571. (5:15:20 PM) Do you know what plans TNT have about tribute
  572. (5:15:32 PM) they holding basicly 2 constellations
  573. (5:15:38 PM) Gicer: What do you mean
  574. (5:15:49 PM) and one of those have 0 stations
  575. (5:16:54 PM) http://evemaps.dotla.../Tribute/X-VN63
  576. (5:17:35 PM) We preparing Gallente egg for NJ4X
  577. (5:17:43 PM) Gicer: I'm not sure what plans they have for it, I could ask their diplo to enquire if you want.
  578. (5:18:12 PM) I`m planing to put gallente outpost at entrance of tribute
  579. (5:18:17 PM) only nj4 left
  580. (5:18:34 PM) and that constellation is also empty
  581. (5:18:46 PM) Gicer: So your interested in the const for CO2?
  582. (5:19:08 PM) well I was watching that const for 3 days
  583. (5:19:10 PM) noone is using
  584. (5:19:43 PM) I would put 2 stations in that const
  585. (5:20:06 PM) Gicer: I can't say but let me ask those questions and get back to you ok?
  586. (5:20:07 PM) so intel from UMI toward middle of Tribute will be better
  587. (5:20:19 PM) Gicer: I understand.
  588. (5:20:25 PM) yea you can ask
  590. And hrm, more of this MMarlon guy… March 30th, 2014.
  592. FR 2014.03 and farewell
  593. From: MMarlon
  594. Sent: 2014.03.30 17:59
  595. To:
  597. Short preliminary financial report for march 2014:
  600. this one is for last year:
  602. this is my last public financial report, as of yesterday I was discharged from my duties as FCO.
  604. It’s been so many years. I had a single task to fill our wallets. I have done. Older amongst you can tell you where when and how the job was done good. Or bad. Irrelevant, let’s go ahead.
  606. I wish you all good game and prosper; and it’s in the best time imaginable one can leave, it’s peace, years of work have filled alliance wallet, and the rules set will bring you steady and very good income for long time ahead.
  608. Thank you, good game.
  609. Marlon
  611. The short version of this story is this: MMarlon had been systematically obliterating CO2 finances to the tune of hundreds of billions of isk. It was why, no matter how much space they had, no matter how much we tried to help them set up best practices, no matter how many moons they had, they were perpetually poor. This is the advice we gave them on March 6th, 2013, that they were being robbed. It wasn’t until a year and one month later, when Gicer, formerly of CO2, told them the same thing that they finally took action on it. The greed CO2 had displayed during and following the Fountain War was due to the mismanagement of their own finances, which we had tried repeatedly to help them with. At this point though, the damage to their mentality as an alliance was done. They saw people around them--people who better managed their finances, in many cases had less coalition spoils, and didn’t get robbed of hundreds of billions of isk--affording fancy things like basic SRP. Their conclusion was not to better manage their money, but that they were being cheated out of space and income by the coalition. Their gross mismanagement was somehow our fault, despite our warnings.
  613. The worst part of all of this was how smug Aryth was when it finally went down. He is to this day insufferable if you mention this particular topic.
  615. Between March and July, Da Winci repeatedly nagged us for more space, more of everything, and reiterated how much better they were than the rest of the allies in the coalition. In mid-July, the diplomat that had spent so much time and effort helping them over the previous two years resigned due to real life reasons, and they were assigned new diplomats.
  617. Following is that conversation, wherein Da Winci himself directly credits CD and our efforts with helping CO2 grow, July 20th, 2014:
  619. 5:12:32 PM da_winci [CO2]: Howdy
  620. 5:12:49 PM da_winci [CO2]: if and when possible, could you spare me a minute?
  621. 5:13:26 PM da_winci [CO2]: have some things I'd like to discuss regarding the recent diplo shuffles
  622. 5:17:05 PM sion_kumitomo: hey, what's up
  623. 5:18:58 PM da_winci [CO2]: I was wondering what happened to Sara - how come we didnt get informed - the lack of weight for the assigned new diplos
  624. 5:21:06 PM da_winci [CO2]: to bluntly state my questions ..
  625. 5:21:27 PM sion_kumitomo: didn't sara or one of the other diplomats contact you about sara quitting?
  626. 5:22:27 PM da_winci [CO2]: well to be fair, I was on vacation the past 2 weeks. So I didnt have my finger on the pulse
  627. 5:23:14 PM da_winci [CO2]: but I find it rather strange that Ektony convoed me a while ago with some pretty noobish questions
  628. 5:23:40 PM da_winci [CO2]: and next thing i know he's the new Goon diplo for CO2
  629. 5:24:29 PM da_winci [CO2]: as for Sara, I did notice a drop in activity lately, but nothing that would have me conclude he was quitting
  630. 5:25:34 PM sion_kumitomo: ektony is a new diplomat. it's a lot to absorb to bring a new diplomat up to speed and takes time. sara started out the same way, if you remeber
  631. 5:26:02 PM sion_kumitomo: has ektony not being doing a good job or something?
  632. 5:26:58 PM da_winci [CO2]: Frankly, if you (he) assume that GIH is still our home system you (he) didnt do his homework properly
  633. 5:27:27 PM da_winci [CO2]: and my diplos are telling me he isnt really of much help in general
  634. 5:28:04 PM da_winci [CO2]: the second diplo I dont even know by name
  635. 5:28:04 PM sion_kumitomo: which diplos are telling you that, and did they say why?
  636. 5:28:35 PM da_winci [CO2]: basically all of them
  637. 5:28:50 PM da_winci [CO2]: they feel as if they need to hold him by the hand
  638. 5:29:03 PM sion_kumitomo: in what respect?
  639. 5:30:36 PM da_winci [CO2]: Generally speaking. Sara could get things sorted. Most encounters with Ektony end in us sorting it ourselves
  640. 5:30:45 PM da_winci [CO2]: dont get me wrong tho
  641. 5:31:10 PM sion_kumitomo: what encounters?
  642. 5:31:21 PM sion_kumitomo: give me some specifics to work with here
  643. 5:32:58 PM da_winci [CO2]: Not knowing how to sort Jabber issues - not knowing if we can transfer sov (and how to go about getting more in Trib) - Unbanning CO2 members - Having background on some people
  644. 5:33:46 PM da_winci [CO2]: very specific stuff I (we) could discuss with Sara, but I feel cannot be handled by him
  645. 5:33:57 PM sion_kumitomo: that's all procedural stuff that comes with time. diplomats do not spring fully formed from the head of zeus
  646. 5:34:26 PM sion_kumitomo: the other diplomat assigned to co2 is konrad kane. have you talked with him about any of this?
  647. 5:34:46 PM da_winci [CO2]: nope, no introductions have been made yet
  648. 5:35:10 PM sion_kumitomo: that's curious, I'm going to have to look into that
  649. 5:35:32 PM sion_kumitomo: sara was a good diplomat, but he also had two and half years of experience
  650. 5:37:27 PM da_winci [CO2]: C , the general feeling I'm getting from this is that we, according to what I think our position is, are not represented in a decent way (fair because my English lacks to convey the nuance there)
  651. 5:37:52 PM da_winci [CO2]: *decent because...
  652. 5:38:25 PM sion_kumitomo: co2 is a valuable and capable alliance, you don't really need to worry too much about representation
  653. 5:38:58 PM sion_kumitomo: that said, if you do have concerns about stuff, you're welcome to be like "yo, this is a big deal"
  654. 5:39:16 PM sion_kumitomo: if there are outstanding issues that I'm not aware of, I'm happy to add them to my list
  655. 5:39:50 PM da_winci [CO2]: I myself and we as an alliance do not go running around screaming that 'stuff' is a big deal
  656. 5:40:24 PM da_winci [CO2]: but I do find it important enough to bring it on the table
  657. 5:40:28 PM sion_kumitomo: well, a new diplomat asking questions and trying to understand things is more preferable in my opinion than one trying to tell you what to do right off the bat
  658. 5:40:42 PM sion_kumitomo: he's trying to understand and catch up, and that's a good sign
  659. 5:41:22 PM sion_kumitomo: as for his perceived 'internal weight,' that's not how we operate. he'll be listened to as any diplomat is listened to
  660. 5:42:04 PM sion_kumitomo: that is, if your concern is that co2's concerns will suddenly drop off the coalition radar due to sara's resignation, I can assure you that won't be the case
  661. 5:42:28 PM sion_kumitomo: which is why I'm more concerned about the whole lack of contact thing as opposed to the asking questions thing
  662. 5:43:17 PM da_winci [CO2]: We are pretty adept at wielding our Serbian battle-axes. If we really want your attention i'm sure we could get it 
  663. 5:44:39 PM da_winci [CO2]: but yes, I anticipated a more active approach from both of them. Sara knew perfectly that regarding politics I'm the one to talk to
  664. 5:45:05 PM da_winci [CO2]: And by doing that he helped CO2 to grow and prosper
  665. 5:45:26 PM sion_kumitomo: sara did great work, yeah
  666. 5:45:45 PM sion_kumitomo: he was also there from the beginning when you guys joined up with the cfc
  667. 5:45:46 PM da_winci [CO2]: can only nod in agreement
  668. 5:46:44 PM da_winci [CO2]: yes, and Ektony was part of CO2 even. But i'm not getting the impression he grasped (or grasps) what we are trying to achieve
  669. 5:46:56 PM sion_kumitomo: he may not, he's just started after all
  670. 5:47:47 PM da_winci [CO2]: I'll give him some time to get to know the inner workings, promise
  671. 5:47:57 PM sion_kumitomo: experience matters, particularly in diplomacy
  672. 5:48:09 PM da_winci [CO2]: but I do expect a more active approach really
  673. 5:48:13 PM sion_kumitomo: I have high standards myself. if he doesn't meet them I'll fire him
  674. 5:48:38 PM sion_kumitomo: you and me both. I expect my diplomats to be proactive and engaged
  675. 5:49:07 PM sion_kumitomo: so we'll see. I'll talk to him about it all and we'll see over the next couple months heh
  676. 5:49:24 PM da_winci [CO2]: appreciated!
  677. 5:49:29 PM da_winci [CO2]: one other thing tho
  678. 5:50:06 PM da_winci [CO2]: how negotiable is a sov gain after Delve?
  679. 5:50:32 PM sion_kumitomo: sov gain for you in tribute I assume?
  680. 5:51:11 PM da_winci [CO2]: well, to push all my happy buttons... yes, that is for Trib yes
  681. 5:51:29 PM sion_kumitomo: I'm not sure
  682. 5:51:43 PM sion_kumitomo: I'll have ektony look into it though
  683. 5:51:49 PM da_winci [CO2]: tho I discussed possible Vale scenario's with Sara
  684. 5:52:02 PM sion_kumitomo: may as well throw him to the sharks, into the deep end, into the fire etc.
  685. 5:52:19 PM sion_kumitomo: plus then he'll be forced to talk to you
  686. 5:52:42 PM da_winci [CO2]: no wonder you are head of CD
  687. 5:52:52 PM sion_kumitomo: because I'm a right bastard?
  688. 5:53:13 PM da_winci [CO2]: you could be Serbian for all I know 
  689. 5:53:28 PM sion_kumitomo: hahaha
  690. 5:53:50 PM sion_kumitomo: mittani calls me a 'ruthless pragmatist'
  691. 5:53:55 PM da_winci [CO2]: on the side, you convinced me with the 'data entry point' piece for TMC
  692. 5:54:25 PM sion_kumitomo: you read it?
  693. 5:54:39 PM da_winci [CO2]: ofc I did
  694. 5:54:49 PM da_winci [CO2]: solid reasoning
  695. 5:54:56 PM sion_kumitomo: well thanks dude
  696. 5:55:20 PM da_winci [CO2]: I appreciate a working brain, ruthless or not
  697. 5:55:50 PM da_winci [CO2]: and I do like my diplos to be 'real politiker'
  698. 5:56:20 PM sion_kumitomo: preaching to the choir
  699. 5:56:40 PM da_winci [CO2]: so I figured you'd understand my concern about the weight of representatives
  700. 5:56:41 PM sion_kumitomo: realpolitik is a great policy expression for pragmatism
  701. 5:56:47 PM sion_kumitomo: I do indeed
  702. 5:57:10 PM sion_kumitomo: how this usually works is that I task a diplomat to look into something in detail, then they present it and we figure out where to go from there
  703. 5:57:32 PM da_winci [CO2]: I figured that one out myself yes
  704. 5:58:14 PM sion_kumitomo: so the only person who listens to and weighs that stuff is myself with input from the other diplomats, doesn't have to go through any kind of committee or whatever
  705. 5:59:07 PM da_winci [CO2]: sounds good - forgive me if I try to channel said person for the time to come
  706. 5:59:13 PM sion_kumitomo: particularly with new people, I try to train them to be independent so they can find their diplomatic swagger sooner. which means mistakes along the way sure, but leads to guys like sara too
  707. 5:59:34 PM sion_kumitomo: it's no worries dude. you want the best for your alliance, I get that
  708. 6:00:06 PM da_winci [CO2]: I'll eagerly tap on your shoulder when I feel he is drowning in something then
  709. 6:00:36 PM sion_kumitomo: and I will eagerly kick stuff back to him if I think he can handle it or if it'll help him grow
  710. 6:00:53 PM da_winci [CO2]: deal
  711. 6:00:59 PM sion_kumitomo:
  712. 6:01:03 PM da_winci [CO2]: I think we are on the same page here
  713. 6:01:19 PM sion_kumitomo: yeah
  714. 6:01:25 PM sion_kumitomo: I'll talk to them both too
  715. 6:01:40 PM sion_kumitomo: so we'll see how they do post that talk
  716. 6:01:49 PM da_winci [CO2]: I'll leave you sifting through your data entry points then
  717. 6:02:01 PM sion_kumitomo: never not
  718. 6:02:11 PM sion_kumitomo: thanks for bringing these concerns to my attention too
  719. 6:02:28 PM da_winci [CO2]: much appreciated for lending me your ear(s)
  720. 6:03:03 PM da_winci [CO2]: will keep my diplos in line also
  721. 6:03:19 PM da_winci [CO2]: have a nice evening there
  722. 6:03:37 PM sion_kumitomo: I shall, I think I'm going to take a walk and get some ice cream at some point. seems summery
  723. 6:03:45 PM sion_kumitomo: hope you have a good night yourself
  725. At around this time, we started spinning up PBLRD, our fantastically profitable coalition rental program. The ‘coalition’ part of that is important, while we were running the program, the actual profits were distributed amongst the coalition. This meant that we repeatedly denied CO2’s requests for more space in Vale of the Silent since it was being used for coalition income. CO2 advocated that their personal income as an alliance mattered more than shared income across the coalition, and we politely replied that the entire coalition took that space, and should benefit in the best way possible. CO2 spent months furious about this.
  727. Note how greed, isk, and more of both are becoming themes here?
  729. August 10th, 2014. We were again embroiled in war, and had again denied CO2’s request to have rental space shifted over to their personal holdings. Their response was to abandon our military efforts:
  731. (10:18:03 AM) Howdy man
  732. (10:19:17 AM) had very unnerving news from CD and GSOL yesterday so we are pulling out of Delve
  733. (2:56:48 PM) excuse me?
  734. (2:57:36 PM) giving you a heads up that CO2 will be pulling out in the days to come
  735. (2:57:41 PM) as we discussed
  736. (2:59:07 PM) throwing a hissy fit and weakening a strategic defensive campaign is probably not the way to go about this
  737. (2:59:08 PM) but w/e
  738. (2:59:35 PM) hissy fit?
  739. (3:00:17 PM) we discussed it weeks ago and came to the conclusion it would be wrapped up by now
  740. (3:00:19 PM) this is either you pulling out because you planned to a fortnight ago or you pulling out in reaction to a silly spat with CD
  741. (3:00:28 PM) and no, i never came to that conclusion
  742. (3:00:36 PM) it's pretty obvious that you're doing this to spite CD
  743. (3:00:44 PM) i'm trying to defend our fucking coalition here, winci
  744. (3:01:31 PM) and I feel there is very little love for the alliance that is pulling that defence
  745. (3:01:44 PM) bullshit
  746. (3:01:49 PM) i'm not even going to get into this conversation with you right now
  747. (3:01:56 PM) because you've angered me
  748. (3:01:58 PM) later.
  750. No really, there’s no space. August 10th, 2014
  752. 6:04:46 AM da_winci [CO2]: Howdy man
  753. 6:06:48 AM da_winci [CO2]: as a follow-up on the monster-convo I had with Ektony yesterday I would like to have the conclusion(s) of that officially confirmed by you
  754. 8:43:24 AM sion_kumitomo: hey, what's up
  755. 8:44:25 AM da_winci [CO2]: apart from the convo I had with Ektony about sov not much
  756. 8:45:26 AM sion_kumitomo: literally been out drinking with goons since thursday
  757. 8:45:41 AM sion_kumitomo: bi-annual goonp thing
  758. 8:45:43 AM da_winci [CO2]: ouch, and now you get this on your plate
  759. 8:45:46 AM da_winci [CO2]: sorry for that
  760. 8:45:52 AM sion_kumitomo: is no worries
  761. 8:46:02 AM sion_kumitomo: just means I'm a bit behind on things mostly
  762. 8:46:13 AM sion_kumitomo: so what did you want to discuss exactly?
  763. 8:47:00 AM da_winci [CO2]: well had a 7 hour convo with him about sov and related things
  764. 8:48:10 AM da_winci [CO2]: and my understanding is in short this..
  765. 8:48:31 AM da_winci [CO2]: no systems will be handed out any longer (as in any)
  766. 8:48:48 AM da_winci [CO2]: regardless of effort and participation
  767. 8:49:26 AM da_winci [CO2]: also, it seems that all CONDI sov in both Vale and Trib is 'spoken for' by GSOL
  768. 8:50:33 AM da_winci [CO2]: that puts us (and others frankly) in a situation where it really doesnt matter what you do, gains are not to be had
  769. 8:50:59 AM da_winci [CO2]: are even not to be discussed
  770. 8:52:17 AM da_winci [CO2]: its a long read, but in short I dont see how participating gets us (or anyone) anything
  771. 8:52:43 AM sion_kumitomo: that's true broadly speaking across the whole cfc
  772. 8:52:43 AM da_winci [CO2]: I feel cheated basically
  773. 8:52:54 AM sion_kumitomo: well, let's look at it
  774. 8:53:15 AM sion_kumitomo: you remember the tribute war when you got your first sov from the cfc, right?
  775. 8:53:41 AM da_winci [CO2]: hardly, was a political noob back then
  776. 8:55:04 AM sion_kumitomo: back then, co2 got a constellation as sort of an investment toward future successes. at the same time, tnt got their first ever expansion of sov space in tribute as well
  777. 8:55:56 AM sion_kumitomo: you guys then proved yourselves, and ended up with basically all of tribute minus the tnt spoils holdings, aside from places where gsf has jb sov
  778. 8:56:14 AM sion_kumitomo: where you still have pve and moon rights, just not sov rights
  779. 8:56:47 AM sion_kumitomo: that is a substantial increase in holdings over a, on coalition time frames, short time frame
  780. 8:56:56 AM sion_kumitomo: for example, look at razor
  781. 8:57:17 AM sion_kumitomo: razor got tenal way way back during the branch war
  782. 8:57:30 AM sion_kumitomo: and has gotten no sov since
  783. 8:57:57 AM sion_kumitomo: this is not a case of "if you participate you'll get even more stuff" which was made abundantly clear after the last round of spoils
  784. 8:58:15 AM da_winci [CO2]: who'd need more then Tenal? 
  785. 9:01:39 AM sion_kumitomo: them, apparently, since they later took CE after killing IRC
  786. 9:02:58 AM sion_kumitomo: alright so that's the first thing, legacy spoils issues
  787. 9:03:13 AM da_winci [CO2]: sec
  788. 9:03:28 AM da_winci [CO2]: now Blarwf is shitting on my head
  789. 9:03:29 AM sion_kumitomo: ie, it's nuts to say to someone "oh sorry, you participation during that war no longer matters and your rewards are being taken away"
  790. 9:03:48 AM da_winci [CO2]: look, this is not cool anymore
  791. 9:04:41 AM da_winci [CO2]: if the overall reaction on what I feel is a justified request is getting lectured and shat on, I'll pass on this
  792. 9:05:31 AM sion_kumitomo: well sara rae apparently did you a massive disservice by not discussing how spoils and such work in the cfc
  793. 9:06:12 AM da_winci [CO2]: really, I still dont see a valid respons other than a) outright hostility or wordzzzz
  794. 9:06:54 AM da_winci [CO2]: If for any reason sov is no longer to be expected based on participation then state it
  795. 9:07:03 AM sion_kumitomo: http://evemaps.dotla...p/Tribute#npc24 I want you to look at that maps and tell me what you see
  796. 9:08:09 AM sion_kumitomo: okay look, we went over this after fountain and delve. there is no more sov to give, we're done. the only sov shuffling that has happened has been due to gents collapsing. that's it, we've hit our borders
  797. 9:08:43 AM sion_kumitomo: what you're asking for is to cannibalize other allied space, space which they too earned, and that is simply not going to happen
  798. 9:09:31 AM sion_kumitomo: the idea of the coalition is that we watch each other's backs and work toward the greater good. I'm not compromising on that principle
  799. 9:09:40 AM da_winci [CO2]: that was to be expected yes - a clear answer on that would have been sufficient to sort that
  800. 9:10:08 AM sion_kumitomo: goons would like more space too, we're by far the most crowded region in the game. fully /half/ of the entire population of the coalition lives in dek
  801. 9:10:34 AM sion_kumitomo: I don't even know why you want more space, it appears that the bulk of what you have isn't even getting used
  802. 9:11:00 AM da_winci [CO2]: based on what are coming to that conclusion?
  803. 9:11:38 AM sion_kumitomo: did you look at the dotlan links?
  804. 9:12:06 AM da_winci [CO2]: did yes, we're in Delve atm
  805. 9:12:35 AM da_winci [CO2]: would only prove we're active where we are supposed to be
  806. 9:12:56 AM sion_kumitomo: well, since you're pulling out, I'm sure I'll have more accurate data within the next few days, no?
  807. 9:13:31 AM sion_kumitomo: and we're in delve as well, usually for a system in dek to get colored red it takes about 20k kills per 24hours
  808. 9:13:56 AM sion_kumitomo: or roughly
  809. 9:14:11 AM sion_kumitomo: the entire region's worth of tribute ratting
  810. 9:14:33 AM sion_kumitomo: but, we make do, because we firmly believe that the greater good is worth our sacrifice
  811. 9:15:08 AM da_winci [CO2]: let's wrap this up. I have no intention of making a fool of myself in front of the Illuminati for much longer
  812. 9:15:34 AM sion_kumitomo: if you're now telling me that not only do you not value the greater good, but that you feel like you should have an ever expanding map blob, then we have reality adjustment that needs to happen
  813. 9:16:49 AM da_winci [CO2]: yes, the map blob - it's sad this is being boiled down to this
  814. 9:17:20 AM da_winci [CO2]: I will leave it for what it is
  815. 9:17:32 AM sion_kumitomo: well since you're attempting to sulk off without telling me what's actually going on, I'm rather left to fill in the blanks myself
  816. 9:18:37 AM da_winci [CO2]: I tried to make a case for expanding CO2, making sure that we could stay on the green side of things
  817. 9:19:14 AM da_winci [CO2]: It seems somehow I got myself in a corner I really dont want to be in
  818. 9:19:18 AM sion_kumitomo: the green side of things?
  819. 9:19:24 AM sion_kumitomo: what does that mean?
  820. 9:19:47 AM da_winci [CO2]: as in 'not red' when it comes to growth
  821. 9:20:48 AM sion_kumitomo: it isn't as if co2 is the only alliance that wants more space
  822. 9:21:15 AM sion_kumitomo: so does everyone else. but resources are finite, and so we have to make do as best as we can
  823. 9:22:28 AM sion_kumitomo: so you may not be gaining anything, but neither is anyone else. and you're not losing anything. which, under your misconception of shuffling things around based on pure participation, could be a real possibility. say, if fcon showed up massively to a war and decided they wanted tribute
  824. 9:22:57 AM da_winci [CO2]: I know - I'll back down from this - it's blowing up in my face and I feel no urge to go clean the mess I'm making
  825. 9:23:27 AM sion_kumitomo: this isn't a back down kind of thing. these are basic underpinnings of how the coalition works
  826. 9:23:56 AM sion_kumitomo: I'm not sure why sara rae didn't outline this stuff to you in the past, but it appears he didn't and may have made some unrealistic promises
  827. 9:24:38 AM da_winci [CO2]: he didnt. Sara was always very correct in pointing out the possibilities
  828. 9:25:23 AM da_winci [CO2]: I suppose I was being too focussed on finding ways around it
  829. 9:25:25 AM sion_kumitomo: well, then you know that the only reason you got more tribute space was because there was an influx of space to the coalition as a whole, correct?
  830. 9:26:05 AM sion_kumitomo: and now, there's no more space coming in, and won't be. so barring people being disbanded or kicked out, we all have to make do with what we have
  831. 9:26:07 AM da_winci [CO2]: It wasnt presented to me like that back then but yes
  832. 9:26:36 AM sion_kumitomo: well, yeah, you got more space due to your participation levels and the addition of more space, to be more accurate
  833. 9:27:32 AM da_winci [CO2]: indeed, and I had to literally drag it from GSOL who wouldnt have given us anything
  834. 9:27:44 AM sion_kumitomo: we added three regions with the fountain war, but with the need for rental isk and having a bit over a dozen alliances in the coalition, the real per alliance gains weren't huge
  835. 9:28:10 AM sion_kumitomo: yeah, I missed out on that spoils process due to being assigned elsewhere at the time. it was handled poorly
  836. 9:28:16 AM da_winci [CO2]: and all-in-all recent developments gave me a deja-vu
  837. 9:28:34 AM sion_kumitomo: deja vu in what sense?
  838. 9:29:54 AM da_winci [CO2]: the outlines where/are very familiar. Same discussions with new mantras. Back then al of Trib was 'strategic'. Now it was PBLRD
  839. 9:30:35 AM da_winci [CO2]: so I assumed I had to negotiate my way through the PBLRD mantra
  840. 9:30:57 AM da_winci [CO2]: and hopefully get similar results
  841. 9:31:24 AM da_winci [CO2]: I feel I misread the situation
  842. 9:31:51 AM da_winci [CO2]: so it IS time to back off from the issue
  843. 9:31:59 AM sion_kumitomo: if we're ever in a position where we add more space to the coalition due to whatever reason, we can revisit this stuff
  844. 9:32:22 AM sion_kumitomo: won't likely be due to war, will most likely be if a cfc alliance collapses
  845. 9:32:50 AM sion_kumitomo: though I mean if you want to wage sov war on people, I suppose that's an option that we could explore too
  847. That was the last of that for a bit. There was some intermittent complaints from CO2 about the sov required for the jb network (pre-Phoebe and fatigue) but by that point we’d given them the rundown on why the coalition required a jb network and yes the sov was technically theirs and so were the moons and that map blobs don’t matter dozens of times. Gigx decided another war staging (Fountain, again) wasn’t worth fighting in, and un-deployed from the coalition back to Tribute to shoot towers in Venal again.
  849. Meanwhile, while still agitating for more stuff in general and abandoning war efforts, Da Winci had no qualms about using threats of coalition reprisal to stave off attacks on their space. November 8th, 2014.
  851. 5:02:36 PM da_winci [CO2]: [22:47:12] Da Winci > howdy man
  853. [22:47:28] PsixoZZ KAHI > 0/
  855. [22:47:41] Da Winci > howdy both
  857. [22:48:00] 3A EDy > <url=showinfo:1374//1293009798>PsixoZZ KAHI</url> is bad in english, i will translate for him.
  859. [22:48:33] Da Winci > no problem, I looked for Silent Dodger but he was not online
  861. [22:49:10] Da Winci > anyway.. I discussed your offer. And we dont see any advantage for us there
  863. [22:49:26] Da Winci > you live next door to MTO2
  865. [22:49:46] Da Winci > so you can welp more fleets in there than we can
  867. [22:50:54] Da Winci > the only thing I can see is you guys wanting that system for JB network
  869. [22:52:04] Da Winci > so we have to respectfully decline your offer
  871. [22:52:27] 3A EDy > If you dont want to fight without allies, we can call our allies. When we do it are you sure that goons will help you?
  873. [22:53:35] Da Winci > nothing is <i>sure</i> in this game. So no, I'm not sure. But I'm willing to take my chances
  875. [22:53:50] Da Winci > the same question is true for you
  877. [22:54:09] Da Winci > you sure you and your allies want to risk attacking CFC sov?
  879. [22:55:43] 3A EDy > This is bullshit. Fuck you. Good bye.
  882. 5:03:10 PM da_winci [CO2]: just a heads up
  883. 5:03:51 PM sion_kumitomo: hahaha
  884. 5:04:33 PM sion_kumitomo: too bad you didn't get a chance to drop "we already killed your alliance once" on him
  885. 5:05:10 PM da_winci [CO2]: I was left all alone sulking for many missed opportunities there
  886. 5:06:53 PM sion_kumitomo: you could have been threatened in new and creative ways
  888. Around this point in time, CO2 started having corps looking for new homes who cited Da Winci’s ego as a reason for leaving, which was new.
  890. A serious incident of grievous mistreatment by the coalition. The discussion on this lasted something like a month. November 17th, 2014.
  892. 4:59:45 AM The Judge [CO2]: When you are around could you please poke me. Important things to discuss.
  893. 7:30:02 AM sion_kumitomo: morning
  894. 7:30:27 AM The Judge [CO2]: Morning (12:30am for me, I guess it is morning!)
  895. 7:31:40 AM The Judge [CO2]: I guess we can do aside with all the chitchat and get right to the point then 
  896. 7:31:53 AM sion_kumitomo: if you'd like, sure
  897. 7:32:47 AM The Judge [CO2]: Da Winci has sent me to talk to you about an issue regarding protocol within the CFC
  898. 7:34:27 AM The Judge [CO2]: One of our 200+ man corps (soon to leave now I guess), has been shopping around alliances. They have contacted 4 that we know of. The serious problem here is 2 of those alliances havent said a word to us, and one of those when asked denied it categorically
  899. 7:36:09 AM The Judge [CO2]: We feel this is a serious failure in both protocal and interconnected communication between alliances
  900. 7:36:11 AM sion_kumitomo: some alliances don't have the greatest internal communication
  901. 7:36:33 AM sion_kumitomo: I'll bounce this over to ektony, he should be able to help you sort it out
  902. 7:39:15 AM The Judge [CO2]: Before you go, I want to make sure that it is very clear that CO2 is very unimpressed, and frankly upset, about this. As far as the corp leaving to now join FCON, we have accepted that much... but if CO2 assets are to try and be protected under FCON that this corp is holding, there will be some fireworks for sure.
  903. 7:39:39 AM sion_kumitomo: are you familiar with the migration policy?
  904. 7:39:47 AM The Judge [CO2]: I am
  905. 7:42:37 AM sion_kumitomo: then you'll know that no alliance is required to inform you that one of your corps is looking to leave if they have no intent on taking them. that is, is a corp says "we want to leave our current alliance and join you" and if they say "no," there is no obligation that they inform you. where other cfc alliances MUST contact you is if they are considering accepting the offer, and they must do so before final action is taken
  906. 7:43:42 AM The Judge [CO2]: From what the corp has told us within the last 12 hours, they have been in talks with FCON and have been told they will be accepted
  907. 7:43:46 AM sion_kumitomo: what has happened in the past is that petty alliance leadership has airlocked decent corps over such things
  908. 7:43:52 AM sion_kumitomo: so it's a balance
  909. 7:44:17 AM sion_kumitomo: well, then fcon is badly in error if they haven't talked to you, and ektony will sort it out
  910. 7:44:51 AM The Judge [CO2]: That is where our problem is. The corp leadership is telling us they have been in talks with FCON for some time and have been accepted to transfer. When aarc was questioned by Da Winci, it was denied categorically
  911. 7:45:23 AM The Judge [CO2]: And here we are. I was sent as the mailman to make sure you were aware of CO2's view on this matter.
  912. 7:45:58 AM sion_kumitomo: okay
  913. 7:46:28 AM sion_kumitomo: I'm handing this off to ektony, he'll keep me appraised as to how it all works out
  915. Notice anything different about Gigx’s chattiness compared to when talking to Sara Rae when he wanted into the coalition? Full log follows. December 7th, 2014.
  917. (3:22:56 PM) viktor_raybach: Afternoon, I just wanted to touch base with you on how the new coordination channels are working out for Co2 and your FCs. My impression is that the past couple of days have gotten better for you guys/j4lp/bastion talking to one another, but wanted to get your impression as you're the one using them.
  918. (3:25:40 PM) Talk with Da Winci
  919. (3:26:11 PM) viktor_raybach: Okay, and nice job on Tri
  921. While not assisting the coalition, CO2 decided instead to hit Russian assets in PF. This led to a series of talks with XIX and a temporary agreement to hold off on hitting assets until we saw how what would be Fozziesov played out. When informed that we wouldn’t be backing their provocation with the coalition, CO2 got exceptionally angry for a period of weeks, which is well illustrated by the rather long log that follows.
  923. March 4th, 2015:
  925. [04/03/15 17:27:21] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: http://evemaps.dotla...Alliance/events
  926. [04/03/15 17:27:39] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: looks like they are transfering out most (all ?) the ABS.A sov
  927. [04/03/15 17:27:56] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: and seeing TT moved to Venal, maybe they are leaving the X.I.X coalition
  928. [04/03/15 20:57:47] ektony [CONDI]: I’ve heard rumors about Psih going AFK now going back, trying to restart TA again
  929. [04/03/15 20:58:02] ektony [CONDI]: but that could also be dumb rumors
  930. [04/03/15 20:59:20] ektony [CONDI]: Seb: did you come to any decision regarding -GE-?
  931. [04/03/15 21:17:20] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: urgh
  932. [04/03/15 21:17:29] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: forgot to talk about it
  933. [04/03/15 21:18:09] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: better not get them too involved
  934. [04/03/15 21:18:14] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: if they want to come they can
  935. [04/03/15 21:18:20] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: but I won't coordinate with them
  936. [04/03/15 21:18:26] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: too much chances of backfiring
  937. [04/03/15 21:18:58] ektony [CONDI]: heh, you’re right on that
  938. [04/03/15 21:19:32] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: incidentally
  939. [04/03/15 21:19:44] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: we defeated a XIX CTA tonight in a really messy brawl
  940. [04/03/15 21:20:02] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: most of use reshipped 4 times
  941. [04/03/15 21:20:18] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: from napocs to ishtars to logis and tackle to ishtars again
  942. [04/03/15 21:20:37] ektony [CONDI]: in MTO?
  943. [04/03/15 21:20:40] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: yeah
  944. [04/03/15 21:20:43] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: that helped for sure
  945. [04/03/15 21:21:04] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: and PIZZA did play bomb-online
  946. [04/03/15 21:22:08] ektony [CONDI]: https://zkillboard.c..."1695357456"]}/
  947. [04/03/15 21:22:47] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: you can put PIZZA with us
  948. [04/03/15 21:23:40] ektony [CONDI]: even with pizza it still somewhat messy
  949. [04/03/15 21:23:45] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: oh yeah
  950. [04/03/15 21:35:57] Da Winci [CO2]: It would have been nice to at least been kept in the loop regarding the new agreement between cfc and xix
  951. [04/03/15 21:36:53] Da Winci [CO2]: PErrigen is a non-involvement area for the cfc. So nice of our allies to inform us of that
  952. [04/03/15 21:37:44] Da Winci [CO2]: Appreciated guys.
  953. [04/03/15 21:42:15] ektony [CONDI]: “no full-scale CFC involvement” is something I believe Blawrf discussed with you in the beginning of deployment
  954. [04/03/15 21:42:45] ektony [CONDI]: regarding “new agreemnt”, don’t be too worried about that — sov changes put a lot of unknowns as it is
  955. [04/03/15 21:43:09] Da Winci [CO2]: Oh no we didn't discuss that. Go check logs on that.
  956. [04/03/15 21:43:48] Da Winci [CO2]: I asked, as good allies do, if we would overstep something if we invaded abso
  957. [04/03/15 21:44:03] Da Winci [CO2]: Answer was no
  958. [04/03/15 21:44:14] ektony [CONDI]: and you didn’t
  959. [04/03/15 21:44:45] ektony [CONDI]: no one is asking you to stop doing what you’re doing
  960. [04/03/15 21:44:48] Da Winci [CO2]: Now xix gets involved, new agreement get discussed and we know nothing on those details.
  961. [04/03/15 21:45:44] Da Winci [CO2]: Asking to stop? You think we are that restarted to escalate something with xix on the field and no chance of backup?
  962. [04/03/15 21:46:14] Da Winci [CO2]: *retarted
  963. [04/03/15 21:46:44] Da Winci [CO2]: That amounts to the same man
  964. [04/03/15 21:48:14] ektony [CONDI]: you and me recently had a conversation how CD operates, didn’t we? afterwards we made this channel
  965. [04/03/15 21:48:43] Da Winci [CO2]: So the new agreement went totally past CD?
  966. [04/03/15 21:49:02] ektony [CONDI]: some things are getting discussion in CD, sometimes big boys like Mittens and Sion and Death make deals directly
  967. [04/03/15 21:49:43] Da Winci [CO2]: So? And we throw co2 in front of the bus by not telling them?
  968. [04/03/15 21:50:17] ektony [CONDI]: the morning that was known, it was in here
  969. [04/03/15 21:50:46] Da Winci [CO2]: And it states GEMInATE !!
  970. [04/03/15 21:51:56] Da Winci [CO2]: The actual translation into "you can deal with PF and co2 as you see fit" was not in there. Amd if so not communicated.
  971. [04/03/15 21:54:08] Da Winci [CO2]: Look, for at least the last 2 years we have been in the forefront of every war. Check recents activity paps. And when we are confronted with something that might need some help from allies we get thrown in front of the bus.
  972. [04/03/15 21:54:31] Da Winci [CO2]: I'm not amused
  973. [04/03/15 21:57:00] ektony [CONDI]: this deal is something of a temporary band-aid, so we can figure out what to do with sov changes
  974. [04/03/15 21:58:55] Da Winci [CO2]: After we laid our dicks on the table and you watch xix chop it of. That kind of temporary?
  975. [04/03/15 22:06:53] ektony [CONDI]: look, nobody wants to throw you “under the bus”, not me, blawrf, mittens or the CFC
  976. [04/03/15 22:08:24] ektony [CONDI]: it was quite clear that our agreement with XIX at the beginning of your campaign allowed some leeway
  977. [04/03/15 22:08:47] ektony [CONDI]: which you guys used to the best of your abilities, carving out a nice chunk of space
  978. [04/03/15 22:10:18] Da Winci [CO2]: And the moment xix shows some teeth and growls the cfc backs off
  979. [04/03/15 22:11:23] ektony [CONDI]: definitely not because of xix teeth
  980. [04/03/15 22:11:47] Da Winci [CO2]: Because of 'blah PF'
  981. [04/03/15 22:14:22] ektony [CONDI]: not even that
  982. [04/03/15 22:15:24] ektony [CONDI]: we had an agreement with XIX, which was poorly worded — which allowed ABS to do some derping around and you guys launching your campaign
  983. [04/03/15 22:16:19] ektony [CONDI]: which was fine, because technically nobody did anything wrong
  984. [04/03/15 22:17:00] Da Winci [CO2]:
  985. [04/03/15 22:18:50] Da Winci [CO2]: and we have more kills in fact
  986. [04/03/15 22:19:00] Da Winci [CO2]: if you increase timeframe
  987. [04/03/15 22:19:12] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: starting one hour earlier
  988. [04/03/15 22:19:50] ektony [CONDI]: also pizza should be kinda on your side
  989. [04/03/15 22:20:33] Da Winci [CO2]: they bombed the easiest targets.. as in not the napocs
  990. [04/03/15 22:20:50] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: they did bomb us once on the gate near the end
  991. [04/03/15 22:20:59] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: with a full void bombs volley
  992. [04/03/15 22:21:02] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: (???)
  993. [04/03/15 22:21:29] ektony [CONDI]: total absolution: 1 guy
  994. [04/03/15 22:21:52] ektony [CONDI]: did you catch this bit where Psih is supposedly back?
  995. [04/03/15 22:22:05] Da Winci [CO2]: so our take on this. We give back the moon.. they respond with a CTA towards MTO2
  996. [04/03/15 22:22:24] Da Winci [CO2]: reffed the station and some towers, dropped SBU's
  997. [04/03/15 22:22:59] Da Winci [CO2]: so as far as we are concerned that is a agression towards the CFC
  998. [04/03/15 22:23:25] Da Winci [CO2]: MTO2 already was ours, not theirs to retake
  999. [04/03/15 22:24:03] Da Winci [CO2]: and I understood that not even MTO3 will be defended by the CFC
  1000. [04/03/15 22:24:05] ektony [CONDI]: that Oasa moon is unfortunately out of equasion, so it’s not really a trade for PF sov
  1001. [04/03/15 22:24:40] Da Winci [CO2]: ow now its out of the equasion? It was on 1 24hrs ago
  1002. [04/03/15 22:25:14] ektony [CONDI]: how so?
  1003. [04/03/15 22:25:51] ektony [CONDI]: i see your point with MTO though
  1004. [04/03/15 22:25:56] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: [02/03/15 12:20:29] Sebastien Saintfrusquin: 1° Figure out what the hell BL is doing next
  1005. 2° Figure out what the hell CO2 is doing next
  1006. 3° Figure out what the hell TT was doing bringing Dreads to N5Y yesterday
  1007. 4° Figure out what the hell all the other parties around (TRI, -GE-, SOLAR to name a few) are doing next
  1008. [02/03/15 12:20:54] ektony [CONDI]: 0° untower Oasa moon
  1009. [04/03/15 22:26:13] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: I think that's what Da_Winci is referring about
  1010. [04/03/15 22:26:40] ektony [CONDI]: anything Sion says is #0 prio for me, and we all know how this works
  1011. [04/03/15 22:27:03] Da Winci [CO2]: agreed, but not claim it wasnt part of the equasion
  1012. [04/03/15 22:27:04] ektony [CONDI]: back to MTO. the problem is, PF isn’t our space
  1013. [04/03/15 22:27:29] ektony [CONDI]: not under any kind of agreement
  1014. [04/03/15 22:27:35] ektony [CONDI]: old, new, whatever
  1015. [04/03/15 22:27:37] Da Winci [CO2]: MTO2 is for months in my book
  1016. [04/03/15 22:28:10] Da Winci [CO2]: can go scan the logs on the reactions in different jabber channels on that
  1017. [04/03/15 22:28:30] Da Winci [CO2]: and CFC was happy enough that CO2 pulled that stunt
  1018. [04/03/15 22:28:49] ektony [CONDI]: precisely
  1019. [04/03/15 22:29:17] Da Winci [CO2]: but now it has outlived its use it doesnt lmatter right?
  1020. [04/03/15 22:29:30] Da Winci [CO2]: nor as an asset nor the one defending it
  1021. [04/03/15 22:31:44] ektony [CONDI]: CO2 is one of most trusted allies, that’s not how it is at all
  1022. [04/03/15 22:31:47] Da Winci [CO2]: better report
  1023. [04/03/15 22:32:37] ektony [CONDI]: simple version I suppose is, we didn’t care about ABS, since they’re shitlords
  1024. [04/03/15 22:33:00] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: Absolution may be thrown under the bus by X.I.X anyway at the rate they are going
  1025. [04/03/15 22:33:00] ektony [CONDI]: which is why it was cool to take their systems from them
  1026. [04/03/15 22:33:45] ektony [CONDI]: however, it was known that even though we might find ABS, we wouldn’t fight XIX if they’d come
  1027. [04/03/15 22:34:11] ektony [CONDI]: simply because we had an agreement (even if it was poorly worded), which we have to respect
  1028. [04/03/15 22:34:12] ektony [CONDI]: now
  1029. [04/03/15 22:34:59] Da Winci [CO2]: and when asked over the past weeks you specifically stated that 'you were looking at options and seeing how things evolved'. Now you make it seem as if that point was already decided
  1030. [04/03/15 22:35:06] Da Winci [CO2]: that is new info for me
  1031. [04/03/15 22:35:28] ektony [CONDI]: i was the one working with XIX on new pact
  1032. [04/03/15 22:35:28] Da Winci [CO2]: and could be seen as withholding some vital pieces of infromation
  1033. [04/03/15 22:35:48] ektony [CONDI]: which would allow us to do some things and maybe not others
  1034. [04/03/15 22:35:52] ektony [CONDI]: so that part is true
  1035. [04/03/15 22:36:07] Da Winci [CO2]: I'm even less amused now
  1036. [04/03/15 22:36:20] Da Winci [CO2]: seems that part was clear from day one
  1037. [04/03/15 22:36:25] ektony [CONDI]: why?
  1038. [04/03/15 22:36:32] Da Winci [CO2]: ^^
  1039. [04/03/15 22:36:49] ektony [CONDI]: we had disagreements on how we should treat ABS and their other renters
  1040. [04/03/15 22:37:07] ektony [CONDI]: for example, our old pact was between us and XIX/XWX, no others
  1041. [04/03/15 22:37:31] ektony [CONDI]: so new pact might’ve / might’ve not included them
  1042. [04/03/15 22:37:43] ektony [CONDI]: and specify what are core regions
  1043. [04/03/15 22:38:07] ektony [CONDI]: however, me and Attakare never actually came to signing that draft
  1044. [04/03/15 22:38:13] ektony [CONDI]: or even making a proper draft
  1045. [04/03/15 22:38:30] Da Winci [CO2]: when was it decided that the CFc would not get involved with xix in PF ?
  1046. [04/03/15 22:39:01] ektony [CONDI]: we had a few discussions to mainly see where we disagree and then my proposal was to work on this separately and see where we’d meet
  1047. [04/03/15 22:39:14] ektony [CONDI]: this is the point of time where I told you about “things being discussed"
  1048. [04/03/15 22:41:15] ektony [CONDI]: obviously it was known by CD that we were working on such a thing and this would probably be one of those “bottom up” things
  1049. [04/03/15 22:42:07] ektony [CONDI]: we’d have to get approvals, etc — I would’ve imagined this would take some time and this is where we’d definitely take your input what you think makes sense
  1050. [04/03/15 22:42:14] ektony [CONDI]: so this is last week, basically
  1051. [04/03/15 22:43:24] ektony [CONDI]: sunday Sion and XIX talk directly and make a shorter version of deal, which is when on monday I paste it here saying “unfortunate thing rather”
  1052. [04/03/15 22:43:29] Da Winci [CO2]: well, i'm too lazy to scan through my logs. Fact remains that we are sitting pants down in PF without help
  1053. [04/03/15 22:43:53] Da Winci [CO2]: and I'm too clever to go do that if I wasnt under the impression that at least MTO2 would be defended
  1054. [04/03/15 22:44:24] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: [02/03/15 11:51:53] ektony [CONDI]: sion_kumitomo (https://themittani.s...m/sion_kumitomo) 9:43 PM ( treaty update time: xix has extended the no structure provision of our previous treaty to encompass off of their pets/allies/renters in geminate. so any structures owned by people on this list in geminate: is to be avoided. additionally, xix/xwx structures regardless of location are not to be attacked (outside of active warzones), and xix/xwx will not attack our structures (outside of active warzones)
  1055. [04/03/15 22:45:58] ektony [CONDI]: [02/03/15 13:46:14] blawrf [CONDI]: if death does lead a campaign against your new foothold, the coalition won't be able to offer assistance
  1056. [02/03/15 13:46:17] blawrf [CONDI]: as stated in the beginning
  1057. [04/03/15 22:46:47] ektony [CONDI]: i mean, it’s not really news that Sion and Mittens can basically override everything and the only option for us as diplos is to say “this is policy now, sol”
  1058. [04/03/15 22:47:07] ektony [CONDI]: regarding PF
  1059. [04/03/15 22:47:31] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: just to be clear here
  1060. [04/03/15 22:47:43] ektony [CONDI]: what was different today that allowed them to ref station?
  1061. [04/03/15 22:47:47] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: am I still allowed to call for CFC fleets help for fights ?
  1062. [04/03/15 22:48:16] Da Winci [CO2]: and NEW foothold... that is NOT MTO2 ffs
  1063. [04/03/15 22:51:26] ektony [CONDI]: Seb: assuming you’re specifically referring to PF CO2 holdings?
  1064. [04/03/15 22:51:40] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: assuming I'm referring to a XIX fleet in PF yes
  1065. [04/03/15 22:57:02] ektony [CONDI]: i think there’s a very thin line when it comes to that, specifically what is that we can send. i can only make very bad over-generalized examples, like: supers definitely not, harpies probably. blawrf would be right person to make the call
  1066. [04/03/15 22:57:37] ektony [CONDI]: the other thing is that you have to think in terms of sov change
  1067. [04/03/15 22:57:44] ektony [CONDI]: now more than ever
  1068. [04/03/15 22:58:13] Da Winci [CO2]: we are thinking on that
  1069. [04/03/15 22:58:18] Da Winci [CO2]: plans galore
  1070. [04/03/15 22:58:57] ektony [CONDI]: holding those PF constellations and Tribute
  1071. [04/03/15 22:59:10] ektony [CONDI]: might be impossible
  1072. [04/03/15 22:59:51] ektony [CONDI]: also at the same time, this sov change opens up a number of political options for us, including XIX too
  1073. [04/03/15 23:00:39] ektony [CONDI]: what options? no idea, we’re on day 2 of dev notes, but as you can see from Sion’s log, this is something we want to revisit
  1074. [04/03/15 23:01:04] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: I've to say sov changes are very low on my priority list
  1075. [04/03/15 23:01:09] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: I'm more concerned in creating content
  1076. [04/03/15 23:01:37] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: up to now we had done well in that department
  1077. [04/03/15 23:02:19] ektony [CONDI]: Seb: so what is that XIX done differently today that allowed them to ref the station?
  1078. [04/03/15 23:02:35] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: their entire supercapital fleet in range
  1079. [04/03/15 23:02:45] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: it severly restricts our options
  1080. [04/03/15 23:02:59] ektony [CONDI]: which we discussed here that they were moving
  1081. [04/03/15 23:03:03] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: ayup
  1082. [04/03/15 23:04:41] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: the thing is, contrary to what lots of people in a certain coalition that shall remain unnamed, both X.I.X and CO2 see our supercapitals as fighting ships, not just sov bashing ships
  1083. [04/03/15 23:05:06] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: so right now the chances are high that we'll get into a Supercapital fight between CO2 and X.I.X at some point, as both sides have brought their assets in range of each other
  1084. [04/03/15 23:05:57] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: This is not because I like throwing supercaps around (I actually prefer solo stuff, easier for my blood pressure), this is because we are facing an opponent with vastly superior numbers, so we need to leverage every advantage we can get, and that includes escalating. Not only that, it is also content, and desperatly needed content for supercapital pilots that have been on a severe diet in this coalition for a long long time
  1085. [04/03/15 23:06:43] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: I know I'll never get the CFC supercap fleet involved, I have never been under any illusion on that particular aspect
  1086. [04/03/15 23:07:14] ektony [CONDI]: that makes sense from content side; however commiting supers is something you should really be discussing in twr or with blawrf. i don’t want to lead you on to something that might you a lot, thinking this is officially “approved” by the cfc or whatever
  1087. [04/03/15 23:07:23] ektony [CONDI]: just not with these guys
  1088. [04/03/15 23:07:26] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: oh I did ask
  1089. [04/03/15 23:07:38] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: and indeed, blawrf told me no
  1090. [04/03/15 23:07:48] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: but even a harpy fleet can be a huge asset in such situations
  1091. [04/03/15 23:08:26] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: be it swinging a subcap fight, killing tackle, killing Fighter-Bombers, they can do a lot of things
  1092. [04/03/15 23:09:30] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: but if all I have to go is a "harpies probably", that's not encouraging
  1093. [04/03/15 23:09:51] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: especially as, gigX rethoric aside, I certainly want neither to take over Perrigen Falls, nor kill X.I.X
  1094. [04/03/15 23:10:52] ektony [CONDI]: honestly, i don’t think even harpies are real possibility. from coalation perspective, we don’t care about PF; we care about you guys, but this is neither official CFC deployment
  1095. [04/03/15 23:13:07] ektony [CONDI]: the problem with breaching agreement is that it makes it subsequently harder to make any new agreements with anyone after that
  1096. [04/03/15 23:15:15] Da Winci [CO2]: Breaching? CO2 in breach? That is taking a walk with the truth
  1097. [04/03/15 23:16:06] ektony [CONDI]: no i’m referring to cfc vs xix pact
  1098. [04/03/15 23:17:09] Da Winci [CO2]: even there
  1099. [04/03/15 23:18:14] Da Winci [CO2]: we gave back the moon and xix responds with reffeing MTOS station, drop SBU's and shoot towers in MTO2
  1100. [04/03/15 23:18:58] ektony [CONDI]: you expected them to get the moon and forget about constellations you took from ABS?
  1101. [04/03/15 23:19:25] Da Winci [CO2]: on the field, this agreement of which we were no part whatsoever, means xix can do basically anything we want and if we would respond alike we would socalled breach the agreement...
  1102. [04/03/15 23:19:43] Da Winci [CO2]: Abso was NOT in the agreement when we did
  1103. [04/03/15 23:20:08] Da Winci [CO2]: and what with the Abso goal of destroying the CFC?
  1104. [04/03/15 23:20:24] Da Winci [CO2]: because that WAS something Blarwf mentioned
  1105. [04/03/15 23:20:31] Da Winci [CO2]: do with Abso what you want
  1106. [04/03/15 23:20:43] Da Winci [CO2]: they are not covered by any agreement
  1107. [04/03/15 23:20:51] ektony [CONDI]: they were not
  1108. [04/03/15 23:21:13] ektony [CONDI]: again, this is what allowed you to take systems that you have now
  1109. [04/03/15 23:21:21] Da Winci [CO2]: and now xix said they are and the cfc pulls their support away?
  1110. [04/03/15 23:22:39] ektony [CONDI]: at this rate abs might be a goner
  1111. [04/03/15 23:23:23] ektony [CONDI]: which support though?
  1112. [04/03/15 23:23:26] Da Winci [CO2]: they are yes, and its not something i'm worried about
  1113. [04/03/15 23:23:57] ektony [CONDI]: “do whatever you want with abs” is one thing
  1114. [04/03/15 23:24:04] Da Winci [CO2]: support? as I understand even having a harpy fleet is questionable in terms of support
  1115. [04/03/15 23:24:18] Da Winci [CO2]: so that amounts to none
  1116. [04/03/15 23:25:47] ektony [CONDI]: harpy fleet or any other type of fleet is something blawrf should really be involved with. i told you my guess that it might not happen but i’m not authorized to send or not to send fleets
  1117. [04/03/15 23:26:45] ektony [CONDI]: you most definitely have our support now and in future, but we also have a deal (maybe bad deal as far as you see it) and we can’t be the one to breach it, in simple terms
  1118. [04/03/15 23:29:24] Da Winci [CO2]: so not defending a strategic important system from an ally is support?
  1119. [04/03/15 23:30:00] Da Winci [CO2]: defending it would be breaching something?
  1120. [04/03/15 23:30:06] Da Winci [CO2]: really?
  1121. [04/03/15 23:30:31] Da Winci [CO2]: I already was not amused, now I'm getting slightly annoyed
  1122. [04/03/15 23:30:49] Da Winci [CO2]: so i'm going to bed now
  1123. [04/03/15 23:31:11] ektony [CONDI]: think about strategic implications of this
  1124. [04/03/15 23:31:24] Da Winci [CO2]: thats exactly what i'm thinking about
  1125. [04/03/15 23:31:33] ektony [CONDI]: you want us to burn this bridge for something that we won’t be probably able to hold post-patch
  1126. [04/03/15 23:31:47] Da Winci [CO2]: name me 1 strategic implication that could actually hurt the CFC
  1127. [04/03/15 23:32:30] Da Winci [CO2]: and defending 1 system is hardly burning a bridge
  1128. [04/03/15 23:32:53] ektony [CONDI]: it’s not about 1 system or 2, or MTO or BWF or whatever
  1129. [04/03/15 23:33:11] ektony [CONDI]: it’s about setting the precent that our deals cannot be trusted
  1130. [04/03/15 23:33:33] ektony [CONDI]: i’m sure you wouldn’t want to deal with space people whose agreements you cannot trust
  1131. [04/03/15 23:34:00] ektony [CONDI]: that’s just doing bad business
  1132. [04/03/15 23:34:19] Da Winci [CO2]: okay, that is it then. You make a deal above our head that directly invoves us. Then say to us that your hands are tied because of said agreement
  1133. [04/03/15 23:34:37] Da Winci [CO2]: now thats what I call a precedent
  1134. [04/03/15 23:35:33] Da Winci [CO2]: Frankly, I havent seen xix go all-out to protect CFC assets the way CO2 does
  1135. [04/03/15 23:36:49] Da Winci [CO2]: well maybe mittens and Sion think i'm a naive small fish here
  1136. [04/03/15 23:37:03] Da Winci [CO2]: but I get the message loud and clear
  1137. [04/03/15 23:37:11] ektony [CONDI]: i understand you feel unhappy about that decision as did I (on personal level)
  1138. [04/03/15 23:37:21] Da Winci [CO2]: so, i'll just shut up about it
  1139. [04/03/15 23:37:34] ektony [CONDI]: it’s not about choosing XIX vs CO2
  1140. [04/03/15 23:37:44] Da Winci [CO2]: no use in fighting giants here
  1141. [04/03/15 23:38:16] Da Winci [CO2]: goodnight guys, my eyes hurt and I need some sleep
  1142. [04/03/15 23:38:52] ektony [CONDI]: get some rest, and have a good night
  1144. Fozziesov devblog hits, entire coalition is thrown into overdrive trying to figure out the enormous implications it has for our happy crew. Entire coalition except CO2, which was more concerned about the war they’d started in the drone regions. So, more on that. March 5th, 2015:
  1146. [05/03/15 00:10:52] ektony [CONDI]: Da Winci: Oasa tower we talked about wasn’t actually untowered? :\
  1147. [05/03/15 00:34:25] blawrf [CONDI]: i told you all in the beginning that this was a co2 campaign
  1148. [05/03/15 00:34:36] blawrf [CONDI]: that your efforts in perrigen were not under the cfc aegis and could not guarentee cfc support
  1149. [05/03/15 00:34:56] blawrf [CONDI]: i'm frankly a little pissed off that once again my words have been twisted
  1150. [05/03/15 00:35:08] blawrf [CONDI]: and i'm running out of patience with it
  1151. [05/03/15 00:38:15] blawrf [CONDI]: sleep well.
  1152. [05/03/15 09:18:42] Da Winci [CO2]: Pissed off about 'once again' ?? Losing patience ?? Wanna go over it step by step on comms maybe? Let's do that. And please do bring everyone involved so we can have a frank conversation on the subject.
  1153. [05/03/15 11:36:59] blawrf [CONDI]: yes, once again. this is the third or fourth time my words on this subject have been questioned and twisted
  1154. [05/03/15 11:37:09] blawrf [CONDI]: so i think you can probably understand, winci, why i'm "losing patience"
  1155. [05/03/15 11:38:22] blawrf [CONDI]: we've just had a huge sov blog drop that changes the entire layout of the bloody game and you're focusing on a silly feud with XIX
  1156. [05/03/15 11:39:10] Da Winci [CO2]: As I do hope you understand that CO2 has been exemplary every time someone call on us. And I personally expected more than a token "we're not getting involved". Not even on harpy level
  1157. [05/03/15 11:39:26] blawrf [CONDI]: ofcourse i understand that, as YOU well understand that i'm the person who makes sure that is known
  1158. [05/03/15 11:39:58] blawrf [CONDI]: the reason we took MTO was to deny it from NC/BL
  1159. [05/03/15 11:40:09] blawrf [CONDI]: XIX is, for all intents and purposes, an "ally" - they're not an enemy, at the very least
  1160. [05/03/15 11:40:19] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: herrrrmmmmmmm
  1161. [05/03/15 11:40:25] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: NCdot is blue with them still
  1162. [05/03/15 11:40:33] blawrf [CONDI]: i'm well aware, ya
  1163. [05/03/15 11:40:35] Sebastien Saintfrusquin [CO2]: means they can dock in MTO2 if death takes it
  1164. [05/03/15 11:40:45] blawrf [CONDI]: and if death allows that, death knows we'll roll geminate
  1165. [05/03/15 11:41:05] Da Winci [CO2]: would we?
  1166. [05/03/15 11:41:09] blawrf [CONDI]: yes.
  1167. [05/03/15 11:41:32] Da Winci [CO2]: that can be sorted, we'll just evac MTO2 then, speed up things
  1168. [05/03/15 11:42:10] Da Winci [CO2]: but with the new sov changes ahead, same reasoning as above, I dont think we'd bother rolling Geminate
  1169. [05/03/15 11:42:15] blawrf [CONDI]: i've been waiting for the moment i can take shit to mittani and say "look, xix are buddying up with NCdot to assault Vale"
  1170. [05/03/15 11:42:45] Da Winci [CO2]: that is the whole point of keeping them busy up here
  1171. [05/03/15 11:43:11] blawrf [CONDI]: i thought you wanted the perrigen pocket?
  1172. [05/03/15 11:43:17] blawrf [CONDI]: i was under the impression that was the point of your campaign
  1173. [05/03/15 11:43:50] Da Winci [CO2]: yep, and holding it prevents XiX any desire to to stuff in Vale
  1174. [05/03/15 11:44:01] Da Winci [CO2]: *to do
  1175. [05/03/15 11:44:03] blawrf [CONDI]: XIX can't hit Vale as part of our agreement
  1176. [05/03/15 11:44:17] Da Winci [CO2]: but can hit CO2 sov in PF ?
  1177. [05/03/15 11:44:26] blawrf [CONDI]: not part of the agreement, never was
  1178. [05/03/15 11:44:39] blawrf [CONDI]: the agreement was made before, included CFC assets in CFC home regions and XIX assets
  1179. [05/03/15 11:44:45] blawrf [CONDI]: XIX/Shadow of Death assets
  1180. [05/03/15 11:44:57] Da Winci [CO2]: so why they reffed like everything in MTO2 last night including SBU'ing it?
  1181. [05/03/15 11:45:02] blawrf [CONDI]: then expanded to just cover a general NIP between the two blocs
  1182. [05/03/15 11:45:10] blawrf [CONDI]: because that's not part of the deal, MTO is not situated in a CFC home region
  1183. [05/03/15 11:45:17] blawrf [CONDI]: i'm not sure i understand why this is tricky
  1184. [05/03/15 11:46:37] Da Winci [CO2]: so would CO2 have been good and stayed home MTO2 would still have been fair game for XiX ?
  1185. [05/03/15 11:46:55] blawrf [CONDI]: would have been good? don't use loaded terminology to try to spin this as me slapping your wrist
  1186. [05/03/15 11:46:56] blawrf [CONDI]: that's silly
  1187. [05/03/15 11:47:11] blawrf [CONDI]: if CO2 hadn't of drawn attention to their Perrigen pocket then there is an argument that XIX wouldn't have cared, ya
  1188. [05/03/15 11:47:23] blawrf [CONDI]: still fair game
  1189. [05/03/15 11:47:46] Da Winci [CO2]: I can see that it comes across as me spinning. I'm smart enough not to spin things with you and CD
  1190. [05/03/15 11:47:54] Da Winci [CO2]: that is above my paygrade
  1191. [05/03/15 11:48:14] blawrf [CONDI]: i'm trying to talk plainly to you here, winci
  1192. [05/03/15 11:48:36] Da Winci [CO2]: I'm just trying to get across how this comes over to CO2 and CO2 leadership
  1193. [05/03/15 11:49:26] blawrf [CONDI]: yes, i know, but you were told in the beginning that this was a co2 enterprise and i could not guarantee CFC aegis/support - as if you were taking lowsec moons.
  1194. [05/03/15 11:49:41] blawrf [CONDI]: the only reason we were able to spin your campaign with death is because we hate ABS.A and TT more than anyone else
  1195. [05/03/15 11:49:53] blawrf [CONDI]: because White Noise declared they were going to kill us so yeah sure co2, go cause havoc
  1196. [05/03/15 11:50:31] blawrf [CONDI]: please understand that if the CFC deploys to MTO and defends, this has potential to turn into a bloc war
  1197. [05/03/15 11:50:43] blawrf [CONDI]: which no-one, NOT ANYONE needs right now, in the very least with our frenemies in XIX
  1198. [05/03/15 11:51:18] Da Winci [CO2]: exactly and killed a titan from us. Are blue with NC. and seem to have carte blanche towards CO2 in PF
  1199. [05/03/15 11:52:17] blawrf [CONDI]: you took sixteen systems from them, killed countless billions worth of infrastructure, forced a disagreement between XIX and TT and made XIX deploy supers & assets to come and defend their rental empire in PF
  1200. [05/03/15 11:52:24] blawrf [CONDI]: isn't that a pretty fucking sweet justification of co2's ability?
  1201. [05/03/15 11:53:06] Da Winci [CO2]: oh yes it. And to wave some smugness around, havent seen anyone do it in ages
  1202. [05/03/15 11:53:13] blawrf [CONDI]: think of this strategically, too
  1203. [05/03/15 11:53:25] blawrf [CONDI]: we have a relatively secure eastern border with death. there are some skirmishes, some disagreements - some major, like this one
  1204. [05/03/15 11:53:38] blawrf [CONDI]: but all in all death is our chum, there's a LOT of history between mittani and him going back years and years
  1205. [05/03/15 11:54:05] blawrf [CONDI]: i'm not sure i think prodding holes in the relationship is a good idea
  1206. [05/03/15 11:54:56] Da Winci [CO2]: my take? Let those chum then make an agreement that we are allowed to keep the MTO2 constellation uncontested. We'll put up a token fight for the others
  1207. [05/03/15 11:55:52] blawrf [CONDI]: hit ektony up with that, see what he thinks - that sort of thing isn't my wheelbox
  1208. [05/03/15 11:56:04] Da Winci [CO2]: give that 2 weeks, they claim victory for taking the 2 other constellations, we keep the MTO2 one. Case closed and onxards to the sov revamp
  1209. [05/03/15 11:57:00] Da Winci [CO2]: it's not your turf, but you being in favor is more than helpfu
  1210. [05/03/15 11:57:10] Da Winci [CO2]: *helpful
  1211. [05/03/15 11:57:46] blawrf [CONDI]: i don't mind which way this goes, really, MTO is relatively safe whoever holds it.
  1212. [05/03/15 11:57:53] blawrf [CONDI]: with that in mind i'll counsel looking into this deal
  1213. [05/03/15 12:00:43] Da Winci [CO2]: that would be appreciated - MTO2 constellation stays CO2, we'll cede the rest
  1215. Same day, a bit later. The only reason I’m including this full log is because I’m still amused by this particular line “though to be fair to razor, at no point did razor tell us we were bad allies for not doing what we said we weren't going to do.” The context for those who don’t wish to read the full log is that CO2 had violated our temporary agreement with XIX, and put our entire eastern border in jeopardy. Again, rather than thinking about how their actions would impact the whole of the coalition, they were laser focused on only their own needs. On the eve of Fozziesov. I trust my irritation comes through in the log as well. Nor will this be the last time Gigx’s weird fascination and grudge for hitting XIX features is a thing.
  1217. 4:12:15 AM da_winci [CO2]: (5-3-2015 0:31:27) Blawrf McTaggart: you can be shitty with me if you wish but i told you that at the beginning
  1219. (11:04:18) Da Winci [CO2]: I'm not trying to be shitty
  1221. (11:05:28) Da Winci [CO2]: context: just had eye surgery - came back and gigX took that XiX tower. Understandebly, but a nonetheless a questionable decision
  1223. (11:06:15) Da Winci [CO2]: next I know there is a revised agrement (good) without the allied party involved (not good)
  1225. (11:07:29) Da Winci [CO2]: and right after the revised agreement (in which I read and got confirmed XiX is not to shoot CFC structures) XiX comes into MTO2 and shoots basically everything
  1227. (11:08:15) Da Winci [CO2]: I let you guys know and get as answer "we are not getting involved"
  1229. (11:09:10) Da Winci [CO2]: so I dont wish to be shitty, I just feel let down by our allies
  1231. (11:10:18) Da Winci [CO2]: I stating that comes across as being shitty that is not my intention. We only need to feel supported by our coalition
  1233. (11:10:41) Da Winci [CO2]: *if stating
  1234. 4:15:45 AM da_winci [CO2]: furthermore, and I'll completely drop the subject after this, I personally feel that XiX comes out as the one getting carte blanche towards CO2 in PF. I get that PF is to no value or interest of CONDI or the CFC. I just assumed when making an agreement on behalf of the CFC we as a member alliance would have come out at least even.
  1235. 7:03:48 AM sion_kumitomo: what
  1236. 7:04:08 AM sion_kumitomo: do you not remember talking about exactly this with me just a few days ago?
  1237. 7:04:39 AM sion_kumitomo: 8:08:38 AM da_winci [CO2]: but's it's cool, I understand that technically we could go on take sov from Abso (though it would be dumb to do so) and we can expect xix to retaliate over this and have to deal with that alone
  1239. 8:09:01 AM da_winci [CO2]: that about sums it up right?
  1240. 7:05:18 AM sion_kumitomo: you seemed to not care about dealing with it alone then, so what gives
  1241. 7:07:53 AM da_winci [CO2]: thats why i'll drop it. Somehow I assumed them attacking MTO2 all out would spark a reaction. In our reading of the new agreement they are not allowed to do that
  1242. 7:08:05 AM sion_kumitomo: 7:57:22 AM sion_kumitomo: probably, with solar gone. and yeah, drone regions aren't covered by this as it isn't considered cfc territory
  1244. 7:58:06 AM sion_kumitomo: so while we can't shoot xix moons or whatever in pf, they can shoot ours
  1245. 7:08:26 AM sion_kumitomo: mto=drone regions
  1246. 7:09:38 AM da_winci [CO2]: like I said, thats why I'll drop it. This is above my paygrade now
  1247. 7:11:18 AM da_winci [CO2]: I'll stay with the feeling that XiX got carte blanche on this now. And yes, that was said earlier that could happen. Just assumed we would get a better deal out of it
  1248. 7:11:50 AM sion_kumitomo: blawrf told you at the outset of this little excursion of yours that you wouldn't necessarily be able to count on coalition support. mittani has made it very clear, repeatedly, that the drone regions aren't cfc space. razor found this out when they took CE, too
  1249. 7:12:25 AM sion_kumitomo: though to be fair to razor, at no point did razor tell us we were bad allies for not doing what we said we weren't going to do
  1250. 7:12:32 AM da_winci [CO2]: like MTO2 constellation is CO2 - we'll put up a token fight over the others - cede the other constellations - high fives and every one happy
  1251. 7:13:09 AM sion_kumitomo: alright, well, best of luck
  1252. 7:13:52 AM da_winci [CO2]: like I said, dropping it, above my paygrade here
  1253. 7:13:58 AM sion_kumitomo: we're still not getting involved. not sure if you've noticed or not, but there's a new sov devblog out that has rather large implications on space and the coalition as a whole
  1254. 7:14:13 AM sion_kumitomo: that's a big deal
  1255. 7:14:23 AM da_winci [CO2]: I did, leadership meeting tonight on that
  1256. 7:14:41 AM sion_kumitomo: furthermore, the next time you tell me that you have a transferred a tower, you better damn well have done so
  1257. 7:15:46 AM da_winci [CO2]: afaik that was sorted. And confirmed when I got confirmation it was sorted
  1258. 7:15:47 AM sion_kumitomo: there was a minor diplomatic blowup last night when xix went to a tower I told them you said you had transferred, and then gigx showed up in local along with one of your sabres as they were knocking it down. that is /extremely/ poor form
  1259. 7:16:38 AM sion_kumitomo: well I don't know who you got confirmation from, but it wasn't sorted. tower was still there, and had ektony not intervened, it would have blown up into a full-fledged diplomatic incident
  1260. 7:17:08 AM da_winci [CO2]: that is on gigX - I try, as always, to get things sorted so nobody can tell me I'm talking bs
  1261. 7:17:24 AM sion_kumitomo: that's bullshit
  1262. 7:18:32 AM sion_kumitomo: you told me this morning that you're mad about 'being abandoned by the coalition" right after you got done telling me that you were happy to go it alone
  1263. 7:19:00 AM sion_kumitomo: you tell me a tower is down when it isn't, and then co2 harasses the people that you told me the moon had been turned over to
  1264. 7:19:17 AM sion_kumitomo: I am not impressed
  1265. 7:20:06 AM da_winci [CO2]: I don't take down towers myself. When I ask people who should do it and they say they are on it I assume they are.
  1266. 7:20:28 AM da_winci [CO2]: I discussed with gigX the fact that he should cede that tower
  1267. 7:20:57 AM da_winci [CO2]: that in itself is a major feat. - Ie. calling gigX off that
  1268. 7:20:57 AM sion_kumitomo: who did you ask?
  1269. 7:21:42 AM da_winci [CO2]: no clue, gigX prolly did - I got confirmation from him we would cede the tower
  1270. 7:22:23 AM sion_kumitomo: 7:54:11 AM da_winci [CO2]: we will put a halt to further sov gain for now. And give back the moon to XiX. And yes, except for 4-1 we reached our objective anyway
  1271. 7:22:35 AM sion_kumitomo: this didn't happen
  1272. 7:22:43 AM sion_kumitomo: that's a big deal
  1273. 7:23:03 AM da_winci [CO2]: we didnt take any more sov
  1274. 7:23:13 AM sion_kumitomo: nor did you give back the moon
  1275. 7:24:15 AM sion_kumitomo: this is not 'above your paygrade,' your the head diplomat for co2, and your diplomatic credibility is not particularly high right now
  1276. 7:25:01 AM sion_kumitomo: which means that when deals are being hammered out with xix, they get to say things like "you agreed to turn over the moon, said you did, but then you didn't and instead harassed our fleet. why should we negotiate favorably?"
  1277. 7:25:23 AM sion_kumitomo: actions have consequences, and so do words
  1278. 7:25:55 AM da_winci [CO2]: when was that harassing fleet?
  1279. 7:26:37 AM sion_kumitomo: last night, and not a fleet. as I said, gigx personally and one of your sabre pilots
  1280. 7:27:20 AM sion_kumitomo: you can understand how this looks, I'm sure, when you've agreed to do something, don't do it, and then your leader goes out of his way to "scare" them or whatever
  1281. 7:27:37 AM da_winci [CO2]: then you really should take that particular fact up with gigX - we agreed to cede the moon to XiX and i got confirmation it was being done
  1282. 7:28:30 AM da_winci [CO2]: if gigX then decides to go harass them - I really cannot follow him around 24/7
  1283. 7:28:42 AM sion_kumitomo: confirmation from who?
  1284. 7:28:51 AM da_winci [CO2]: and trust me I was already frustrated as hell over him going to take it
  1285. 7:28:59 AM da_winci [CO2]: confrimation from gigX
  1286. 7:29:41 AM sion_kumitomo: alright, well, I have zero desire to get pulled into gigx's grudge match with xix. particularly on the eve of major sov revamp
  1287. 7:29:56 AM da_winci [CO2]: exactly what I told him
  1288. 7:30:05 AM sion_kumitomo: and I'm not going to allow gsf to be played by ham-handed stunts to try to force our involvement either
  1289. 7:30:32 AM da_winci [CO2]: exactly what I said
  1290. 7:31:01 AM sion_kumitomo: so don't fucking play the victim card about being 'abandoned by the coalition' when this is the kind of bullshit that's going on
  1291. 7:32:21 AM da_winci [CO2]: I play the card that the situation has left me with
  1292. 7:32:34 AM sion_kumitomo: anyway, I'm going to consider this incident resolved, and that the issue is now clear. and yes, I understand that the treaty itself isn't very clear. that's waiting on mittani and death to link up, and not something I can rush
  1293. 7:33:05 AM sion_kumitomo: in the meantime, we're going to be planning for the future of the coalition under ccp's dumb-ass new sov system
  1295. And once again we found ourselves fighting in Fountain, and once again CO2 decided not to join us. First they claimed they were worn out from fighting in the drone regions, then Blawrf got the truth from Seb--CO2 was mad that we didn’t protect a thing we said we weren’t going to protect, MTO, or get dragged into their XIX grudge match. So they opted not to show up to defend the coalition. That and they felt like they hadn’t gotten enough stuff in payment for their services to the coalition. This was also when we first started hearing rumors about Gigx talking about resetting the coalition from some of his alliance members. March 28, 2015.
  1297. (9:07:18 PM) blawrf_mctaggart: uh
  1298. (9:07:19 PM) blawrf_mctaggart: Sebastien Saintfrusquin:
  1299. (9:09:40 PM) kippig: heh snuff did go to hakonen afterall
  1300. (9:09:53 PM) blawrf_mctaggart: i have several hundred questions about a) hakonen hakonen c) hakonen d) why are co2 up north when we're invading delve as a coalition e) hakonen
  1301. (9:10:00 PM) blawrf_mctaggart: f) why we lost that much shit when you were forewarned
  1302. (9:13:00 PM) isphirel: i bet half of the answers are going to be "gigx"
  1303. (9:13:46 PM) Sebastien Saintfrusquin: for the non-d) questions:
  1304. (9:13:55 PM) Sebastien Saintfrusquin: 22:05 Sebastien Saintfrusquin gigx is in one of his moods
  1305. 22:06 Sebastien Saintfrusquin not going to even pretend to care, I took one of the SRP dreads for it anyway, not my own
  1306. (9:14:11 PM) Sebastien Saintfrusquin: for the d) question:
  1307. (9:14:15 PM) isphirel: I KNEW
  1308. (9:14:38 PM) Sebastien Saintfrusquin: we only deployed the USTZ in fountain, and only recently at that
  1309. (9:15:07 PM) blawrf_mctaggart: why?
  1310. (9:15:16 PM) blawrf_mctaggart: this campaign is counting toward coalition participation etc
  1311. (9:15:20 PM) Sebastien Saintfrusquin: oh yes
  1312. (9:15:44 PM) Sebastien Saintfrusquin: well
  1313. (9:16:27 PM) Sebastien Saintfrusquin: fatigue from perrigen
  1314. (9:17:06 PM) Sebastien Saintfrusquin: complete lack of motivation from coalition campaigns that have mostly provided us nothing as rewards in the last instances
  1315. (9:17:42 PM) Sebastien Saintfrusquin: and lot of ill will against the coalition for not defending our pride and joy, MTO2-2
  1316. (9:17:50 PM) Sebastien Saintfrusquin: does that answer your question ?
  1317. (9:17:58 PM) blawrf_mctaggart: it answers more than i ever asked, yeah.
  1318. (9:18:05 PM) Sebastien Saintfrusquin: cool
  1319. (9:18:10 PM) Sebastien Saintfrusquin: well I'm in Fountain myself
  1320. (9:18:23 PM) Sebastien Saintfrusquin: so do give the 24 hours notice before resetting us !
  1322. By the first week of April, plans were well underway to abandon our southern holdings. Plans hadn’t yet been solidified, but it was clear that we would have to rehome multiple alliances. For the first time in our history, the newly minted Imperium would not be gaining assets from a war to divide. We’d be losing assets, and losing space. Some alliances, such as Bastion, were particularly generous in offering up their space to the newly homeless. CO2 was not one of those alliances. While we were in the process of giving up four regions, CO2 busily made the case for why they should own Tribute. I wish I were exaggerating. TheJudge, April 7th, 2015.
  1324. Part of what I worry about it being cut off at the knees as it were on growth potential. The main things I look at for this is the ISK that can come from the systems we would hold, and the more worrying theory that we will be put in the same situation that we have had for the last 12-18 months where we push for activity in deployments from our members, but are openly told that there will be no sov gain in our future in Tribute
  1326. Stability ties into the isk thing, sure... but it also means ratting possibilities for our member corps and their happiness. Unhappy corps leave. A huge part for the "stability" for me also counts on who we live next to. At the moment I personally cant count on TNT or BASTN to come to our aid should we need it if shit goes south, which is something I would like to fix with whoever we live with post fozzie-sov.
  1328. Ease is rather simple. Shared ratting rights for me have always caused more diplo drama and tension between allies for example.
  1330. And of course, it all goes back to the fact that this reshuffle will more likely than not stick with us for at least a few years, so I would like to make 100% sure we are happy where we are sitting at the end of it.
  1331. Honestly, other than goons themselves dropping numbers on something, we have shown time and time again that we can pull our weight and defend. We are more than confident that we would be able to both live in and defend those constellations
  1332. Pre-fozziesov we are going to reshuffle corp locations within our sov, because really you want all that sorted before anything changes
  1334. H-W of course still being the central staging, because it is so centered to Tribute
  1336. GIH constellation for example is prime for our two indy corps, since mining will also help with defenders stats
  1338. TZ window will of course be EU since that is our strongest timezone, as well as the timezone where we can have our best FCs online
  1340. The jump bridges may change some, but even at this point in our plans, you would never be more than 3 jumps from getting to the system which is being attacked
  1342. Of course our ever growing super and titan numbers help with any of the venal people, at the moment OOS+TT, who would try and poke at something closer to the top of the held sov on that screenshot
  1344. The main thing we have going for us is active people. We dont have dead weight. Every system on that screenshot we can have people living in with no problem
  1346. For example, one of our corps Capital Fusion (EUTZ) have already made it known that they want to live in FY0W-N, which has great jump range to two constellations, as well as their corp being back to protect the lowsec entry point M-OEE8 from what I assume is going to be some pretty heavy traffic
  1348. We dont want to wait until the sov change to have everything set up. Systems that need to be upgraded will be done before fozziesov, as well as a complete corp reshuffle and most likely a jump bridge rework
  1350. We have the numbers, we have the activity and we have the leadership. I have no doubts whatsoever.
  1351. I guess all I can really say is we have never shown that we couldnt defend our space, or others space like Bastion or Gents when asked to help. If anything, I believe we have shown we are more than strong enough to take on the systems I linked
  1353. This log is amusing in hindsight, now that CO2 is actively repeating these talking points. April 12th, 2015.
  1355. 17:25:54 Da Winci: I was approached by Wargod yesterday
  1356. 17:26:14 ektony_: from TRI?
  1357. 17:26:27 Da Winci: with the very clear request of backstabbing goons
  1358. 17:26:34 ektony_:
  1359. 17:26:43 Da Winci: yes, the Wargod
  1360. 17:26:52 ektony_: do you have logs for maximum
  1361. 17:27:00 ektony_:
  1362. 17:27:20 Da Winci: nope, that part of the convo was on our TS
  1363. 17:27:24 ektony_: ok
  1364. 17:27:28 ektony_: maybe tldr then?
  1365. 17:28:03 Da Winci: he tried to convince me that "Goons are using us"
  1366. 17:28:22 Da Winci: as a meatshield between Gem and Dekl
  1367. 17:29:00 Da Winci: and that their goal was to breach through XiX sov towards Vale
  1368. 17:29:26 ektony_: so they want Gem and Vale?
  1369. 17:30:20 Da Winci: that is what he said yes
  1370. 17:31:11 ektony_: so they want your support to push GemCo?
  1371. 17:31:38 Da Winci: lol
  1372. 17:31:49 Da Winci: I sent him walking
  1373. 17:31:57 ektony_: still pretty funny
  1374. 17:32:05 ektony_: that he'd think this would actually work
  1375. 17:32:17 Da Winci: we already had a similar offer from Solar during the PF campaign
  1376. 17:32:50 Da Winci: and I refused any co-op because of TRI
  1378. The entirety of April’s logs are full of Da Winci and Thejudge trying to get as much of Tribute as possible, saying TNT doesn’t deserve it, and that oh yes CO2 would like Vale space as well. There’s a lot of logs on all of those points, but it’s nothing that hasn’t already been put on display with regards for their grasping greedy hands so use your imagination. Eventually, we hit upon the idea of moving TNT out of Dek to spread our population density out a bit more to keep index levels up. This started the next round of CO2 angst, and they promptly decided that it wasn’t just CD and GSOL that were evil, but TNT was too. Again, this was after we gave up four regions and folded one alliance. And still, CO2 wanted more. Indeed, they wanted all of Tribute. April 20th, 2015.
  1380. [4/20/15, 6:13:16 PM] The Judge [CO2]: :poke:
  1381. [4/20/15, 6:13:32 PM] ektony [CONDI]: Hey
  1382. [4/20/15, 6:13:39 PM] The Judge [CO2]: Howdy
  1383. [4/20/15, 6:13:44 PM] The Judge [CO2]: How did the move go
  1384. [4/20/15, 6:14:07 PM] ektony [CONDI]: Which move?
  1385. [4/20/15, 6:14:13 PM] The Judge [CO2]: Timezones
  1386. [4/20/15, 6:14:23 PM] ektony [CONDI]: oh my U.S. move
  1387. [4/20/15, 6:14:31 PM] ektony [CONDI]: That was last week
  1388. [4/20/15, 6:14:40 PM] The Judge [CO2]: I havent really talked to you since then!
  1389. [4/20/15, 6:14:46 PM] ektony [CONDI]: I think we talked after that
  1390. [4/20/15, 6:14:50 PM] ektony [CONDI]: Or maybe we didnt
  1391. [4/20/15, 6:15:00 PM] ektony [CONDI]: Well now we are
  1392. [4/20/15, 6:15:14 PM] ektony [CONDI]: 6pm here
  1393. [4/20/15, 6:16:00 PM] ektony [CONDI]: I did actually talk to DW quite a lot in last week, so TZ didn't really change a thing
  1394. [4/20/15, 6:16:26 PM] ektony [CONDI]: Saw there were some Brave hubris over the weekend
  1395. [4/20/15, 6:23:57 PM] The Judge [CO2]: A little
  1396. [4/20/15, 6:24:12 PM] The Judge [CO2]: So
  1397. [4/20/15, 6:24:35 PM] The Judge [CO2]: Is it safe to assume you are up to date with the discussion I had with viktor last night?
  1398. [4/20/15, 6:25:21 PM] ektony [CONDI]: I am
  1399. [4/20/15, 6:25:54 PM] The Judge [CO2]: Thats good, saves the update
  1400. [4/20/15, 6:26:05 PM] ektony [CONDI]: DW left me some pretty cryptic messages during the night
  1401. [4/20/15, 6:26:45 PM] The Judge [CO2]: I am aware of the messages... He has sent me in to bat on this while he sleeps
  1402. [4/20/15, 6:27:01 PM] ektony [CONDI]: Ok
  1403. [4/20/15, 6:27:17 PM] ektony [CONDI]: So let's talk about what he left for me
  1404. [4/20/15, 6:27:27 PM] ektony [CONDI]: Because I didn't really get the logic
  1405. [4/20/15, 6:28:03 PM] The Judge [CO2]: What do you not understand? Maybe we can start there.
  1406. [4/20/15, 6:28:42 PM] ektony [CONDI]: so they dont want to cram 2000 people in 3 constellations?
  1407. and assume we will cram 3000+ in the same amount of space (less systems even)
  1408. taking into account we just took the better part of FA cap fleet in?
  1409. and they also assume to have shared ratting rights?
  1410. i'm gonna sleep on this, but I think we will have to sit down and talk this through
  1411. [4/20/15, 6:28:47 PM] ektony [CONDI]: this is what he sent me
  1412. [4/20/15, 6:29:00 PM] The Judge [CO2]: Yes
  1413. [4/20/15, 6:30:11 PM] The Judge [CO2]: and?
  1414. [4/20/15, 6:30:44 PM] ektony [CONDI]: first of all, this is not TNT / CO2 competition
  1415. [4/20/15, 6:30:52 PM] ektony [CONDI]: with that said
  1416. [4/20/15, 6:31:32 PM] ektony [CONDI]: proposal was sketched before FA started collapsing
  1417. [4/20/15, 6:32:36 PM] ektony [CONDI]: i have a better one now (sun)
  1418. [4/20/15, 6:32:50 PM] The Judge [CO2]: Hit me with it then
  1419. [4/20/15, 6:33:31 PM] ektony [CONDI]: +10 systems with 2 stations, contiguous space, pretty good sec status
  1420. [4/20/15, 6:33:59 PM] The Judge [CO2]: Can you give me the proposed constellation list please?
  1421. [4/20/15, 6:34:18 PM] ektony [CONDI]: most importantly contiguous space since you guys don’t seem to care about ratting anyway v0v
  1422. [4/20/15, 6:34:30 PM] ektony [CONDI]: basically this http://evemaps.dotla...lent/Z-DO53#sec
  1423. [4/20/15, 6:35:26 PM] ektony [CONDI]: that would bring CO2 footprint to 24 or 25 systems
  1424. [4/20/15, 6:35:54 PM] ektony [CONDI]: sorry 24 + 10 = 34
  1425. [4/20/15, 6:36:26 PM] ektony [CONDI]: thoughts?
  1426. [4/20/15, 6:37:12 PM] The Judge [CO2]: I think we were pretty clear with our goals, being Tribute.
  1427. [4/20/15, 6:40:15 PM] ektony [CONDI]: I get why relocation is not a good thing for you, so we can just forget about that
  1428. [4/20/15, 6:40:45 PM] The Judge [CO2]: Honestly, I am feeling a little insulted. We have been very open and clear that we have a hard rule that we want to live in Tribute. With the outline we were given by viktor last night (which I understand you say was "scrapped"), TNT is building a great wall of china to keep themselves secure (INIT on PB side, CO2 on the busy Tribute side).
  1429. [4/20/15, 6:41:11 PM] The Judge [CO2]: Not to mention the 1000+ members, majority of FAs super and capital fleet ect that we are now trying to give a home
  1430. [4/20/15, 6:41:45 PM] ektony [CONDI]: from the beginning of fozziesov talks CO2 wanted busier part of Tribute to consolidate
  1431. [4/20/15, 6:41:56 PM] ektony [CONDI]: i’m not seeing how this is suddenly a bad thing
  1432. [4/20/15, 6:42:53 PM] The Judge [CO2]: It wouldnt be, should we be given what we have asked for
  1433. [4/20/15, 6:45:24 PM] The Judge [CO2]: I can live with being next to TNT, dont get me wrong (even though I did mention they were lowest on our list). But I am feeling as if you are not taking into account our value, and that leaves me feeling insulted.
  1434. [4/20/15, 6:46:36 PM] ektony [CONDI]: once again, 1000 members is a sudden adjustment in everyone’s plans, I doubt that anyone actually thought FA is going to collapse like this; now since it happened we need to adjust — I’m offering you all the consolidated space that we’ve always talked about, plus I’m giving you a 30% increase in space footprint for your newly expanded membership to live in
  1435. [4/20/15, 6:47:07 PM] The Judge [CO2]: Space outside Tribute, which is not what we are interested in.
  1436. [4/20/15, 6:47:42 PM] The Judge [CO2]: Which also means, what I assume, is that you want us to also give up the GIH constellation in this proposal
  1437. [4/20/15, 6:49:53 PM] ektony [CONDI]: two question then
  1438. [4/20/15, 6:50:30 PM] ektony [CONDI]: a) why having all of the Tribute is required for CO2 well-being and why do you see Vale so terrible that you feel it’s almost an insult to CO2 to get it?
  1439. [4/20/15, 6:50:50 PM] ektony [CONDI]: just want to get your opinion on this
  1440. [4/20/15, 6:51:14 PM] ektony [CONDI]: emotional reasons? financial reasons? something else entirely?
  1441. [4/20/15, 6:53:53 PM] The Judge [CO2]: We made it clear from day one, when we first took GIH constellation (which we put the stations in) that we wanted to grow into Tribute. We made it our home after moving out of Venal. For the last 18 months we have bitten the bullet of having the lowest number of sov systems within the CFC, while still keeping up and growing our statistics and numbers.
  1442. [4/20/15, 6:55:10 PM] The Judge [CO2]: At the point we first started discussing sov, I felt we had a pretty good claim to the outline I gave you. We both know CO2 could defend that before taking in so much of FA... and now, the arguement of not having enough military might is out the window.
  1443. [4/20/15, 6:56:00 PM] The Judge [CO2]: So, yes. All of those reasons.
  1444. [4/20/15, 6:56:35 PM] The Judge [CO2]: We made this our home, financially we have a lot invested, and we have a lot set up already
  1445. [4/20/15, 6:57:15 PM] The Judge [CO2]: This has all been clear since the day we moved into tribute and owned one constellation all those years ago
  1446. [4/20/15, 6:58:08 PM] The Judge [CO2]: You can see, how after all this time that we have worked our butts off, that we would feel a bit insulted by these proposals.
  1447. [4/20/15, 6:59:08 PM] The Judge [CO2]: We want to secure our corps, keep a high retention, and continue growing and helping our coalition.
  1448. [4/20/15, 6:59:09 PM] ektony [CONDI]: I can assure you that pragmatism is the only driving force that I have, most definitely an attempt to insult anyone
  1449. [4/20/15, 7:00:04 PM] ektony [CONDI]: now, I’m not aware of any agreements back in the day to make Tribute exclusive for you, but if such an agreement was made, I’d like to know asap
  1450. [4/20/15, 7:02:08 PM] ektony [CONDI]: three important things that were communicated were a) you want to retain your foothold in Tribute (which you will) because of emotional attachment you want to consolidate your space (which you will) and c) you want more sov for your membership to grow (which you also will; mind you, you’re growing when most of coalition shrinks right now)
  1451. [4/20/15, 7:05:18 PM] ektony [CONDI]: i could probably carve some more of Vale space
  1452. [4/20/15, 7:05:38 PM] ektony [CONDI]: in addition to those 9 or 10 systems mentioned above
  1453. [4/20/15, 7:05:50 PM] The Judge [CO2]: We exactly are we being pushed towards vale, and not TNT towards PB?
  1454. [4/20/15, 7:06:40 PM] ektony [CONDI]: pushed? you’re consolidating most of your space in Tribute
  1455. [4/20/15, 7:08:01 PM] ektony [CONDI]: Da Winci outright rejected idea of relocation; as soon as he did, I dropped that idea completely
  1456. [4/20/15, 7:08:30 PM] ektony [CONDI]: in general, if we have a choice, we’d rather hold Vale space and not PB space
  1457. [4/20/15, 7:09:47 PM] The Judge [CO2]: After 18 months of attempting to negotiate move sov in Tribute, and being told nobody will have any sov movement until some massive happens, while also being a top participating alliance within the CFC who as Vee says "can always be counted on", while also having some of the lowest sov numbers within the whole coalition, something massive (fozziesov) does happen and we are finally pushing for what we see is fair (and honestly with so much of FA joining, some argued for more).
  1458. [4/20/15, 7:09:50 PM] ektony [CONDI]: you can expand into Vale and TNT cannot into PB. even if they could, Vale > PB anyway, CO2 would be getter better space
  1459. [4/20/15, 7:11:06 PM] The Judge [CO2]: I find it hard to understand why we are being asked to negotiate out of Tribute sov, when this whole time we have been the alliance living here, defending the space, and making it well known we wanted to expand further into Tribute.
  1460. [4/20/15, 7:11:24 PM] The Judge [CO2]: Does that seem fair to you?
  1461. [4/20/15, 7:22:08 PM] ektony [CONDI]: fair? we’re dropping huge chunks of space with no intention of redistributing that to our allies, I don’t think that’s fair either. and you come on top of this situation with new members in your alliance and more space than you had before to accomodate them while most of our allies shrink in terms of space
  1462. [4/20/15, 7:23:24 PM] ektony [CONDI]: we’ve always had sov discussions ending with “why CO2 isn’t getting more space”, now I’m offering you quite a sizable chunk of good space with a possibility to give out even more
  1463. [4/20/15, 7:24:25 PM] ektony [CONDI]: because yes, like you said, you’ve had pretty amazing performance historically wise and CO2 should be rewarded for that, especially now when we’re losing space and not making space
  1464. [4/20/15, 7:24:41 PM] ektony [CONDI]: why is this not a good thing?
  1465. [4/20/15, 7:27:23 PM] The Judge [CO2]: Lets put aside the fact that our ambitions have only ever, and likely will only ever lay in Tribute
  1466. [4/20/15, 7:27:49 PM] The Judge [CO2]: (and this is by no means agreeing to anything, I am just laying it out)
  1467. [4/20/15, 7:27:55 PM] ektony [CONDI]: ok
  1468. [4/20/15, 7:30:18 PM] The Judge [CO2]: You are offering us to cede 03C-5U, somewhere we have huge amounts of isk invested, as well as being our only Industry centre in Tribute, and in return offer Z-DO53 (vale) which is a regional contellation into lowsec, with TERRIBLE jump range to our staging in Tribute
  1469. [4/20/15, 7:31:14 PM] The Judge [CO2]: Sounds like a headache to me
  1470. [4/20/15, 7:33:18 PM] ektony [CONDI]: last time we discussed stagings, Da Winci mentioned your plan was to spread caches across, plus it’s only one gate away from MSHD
  1471. [4/20/15, 7:33:57 PM] ektony [CONDI]: regarding promixity to lowsec, I don’t get that at all — Trib has entries from lowsec and nullsec as well and CO2 never saw that as an issue
  1472. [4/20/15, 7:34:01 PM] The Judge [CO2]: Not to mention after fozziesov, splitting our alliance over two regions like that defeats the whole purpose of what we are doing
  1473. [4/20/15, 7:34:14 PM] ektony [CONDI]: it’s contingent space
  1474. [4/20/15, 7:34:42 PM] The Judge [CO2]: Its not an issue, when you have one of them... not two.
  1475. [4/20/15, 7:34:45 PM] ektony [CONDI]: which is the only important point
  1476. [4/20/15, 7:35:42 PM] The Judge [CO2]: ektony, we stage in the dead center of tribute. I can see how you might think vale sov is a good idea, but for us it is a little more than a hard sell
  1477. [4/20/15, 7:35:58 PM] The Judge [CO2]: It is unrealistic
  1478. [4/20/15, 7:36:33 PM] The Judge [CO2]: If you were here when we had to save GENTS, then you would understand my problems with this proposal.
  1479. [4/20/15, 7:37:57 PM] ektony [CONDI]: maybe you could expand on this a bit?
  1480. [4/20/15, 7:41:03 PM] ektony [CONDI]: and going back to jump range… yes, you’re right — prefozzie sov that was the case, now with the nerf gates became more important, and these patches of space are directly connected with regional gates
  1481. [4/20/15, 7:42:00 PM] The Judge [CO2]: It would be attempting to defend two fronts from lowsec (which after fozziesov will have heavy traffic) while not being consolidated at all in terms of defence.
  1482. [4/20/15, 7:43:03 PM] ektony [CONDI]: all of the east Tribute will be consolidated as per initial plan
  1483. [4/20/15, 7:44:13 PM] ektony [CONDI]: if I’m missing important part of sov defence mechanics, i’d want to know what is that i’m not taking into account, because it’s not too late yet
  1484. [4/20/15, 7:45:27 PM] The Judge [CO2]: Harassment is one thing. That can be delt with by a small corp living near by. Actual attacks is totally different. You want to be able to drop the hammer.
  1485. [4/20/15, 7:45:39 PM] The Judge [CO2]: You cant do that with what you are proposing
  1486. [4/20/15, 7:46:03 PM] The Judge [CO2]: And more than that, it is not something we are interested in at all
  1487. [4/20/15, 7:47:10 PM] The Judge [CO2]: We are interested in staying in Tribute. Defending Tribute from H-W (the center of the region), and living in our sov with our members
  1488. [4/20/15, 7:48:25 PM] The Judge [CO2]: And at the end of the day, what we are asking for is not unrealistic for our statistics, in absolute numbers, super+capital force and participation
  1489. [4/20/15, 7:48:32 PM] ektony [CONDI]: OK, I’m gonna dash for dinner and have a long and hard thought about this.
  1490. [4/20/15, 7:48:53 PM] The Judge [CO2]: Good idea.
  1493. Ceding a system or two after allies had lost regions? An insult. April 21st, 2015
  1495. 1:16:10 AM Da Winci: Howdy man
  1496. 1:16:56 AM Da Winci: slept on it, woke up with the proposal you discussed with Judge and feel like sleeping again :-/
  1497. 1:17:46 AM Da Winci: I dont find it reasonable to both cede GIH for basically nothing
  1498. 1:18:20 AM Da Winci: the Vale constellation you propose is not a compensation for not having GIH or DBT
  1499. 1:23:27 AM Da Winci: how is TNT's request that much more 'acceptable' or reasonable than ours?
  1500. 1:26:14 AM Da Winci: I think I was very clear in holding either DBT or GIH - that would be the one 'couch-constellation' we'd have to concentrate industry in
  1502. April 26th, 2015.
  1504. 10:23:19 AM Da Winci: howdy
  1505. 10:23:46 AM Da Winci: Wibla just told me they are going to announce the transfer to their CEO's
  1506. 10:24:08 AM Da Winci: they finished their negotiations
  1507. 10:24:22 AM Da Winci: can you bring me up to date on that?
  1508. 10:25:08 AM Da Winci: because if so I need to do a very fast alliance meeting. Don't want my guys hearing it from some (news)channels
  1509. 10:35:42 AM ektony_: hey
  1510. 10:39:51 AM ektony_: just spoke to Wibla as well
  1511. 10:42:31 AM ektony_: seems like he was slightly baffled by "negotiations are still ongoing" comment by the judge
  1512. 10:43:48 AM ektony_: which is technically correct as we still need to work out Vale details, but that has nothing to do with TNT
  1513. 10:56:03 AM Da Winci: i'd say the shared ratting rights have everything to do with TNT
  1514. 10:56:29 AM Da Winci: you moved that to 'a later point' and was gonna talk to Wibla
  1515. 10:56:43 AM Da Winci: I assume they are off the table
  1516. 10:57:33 AM Da Winci: cause if I get word after their meeting it is said they'll have them I consider that twisting my arm
  1517. 10:58:08 AM Da Winci: I will announce in 5min to my CEO's that it is not the case
  1518. 10:58:48 AM Da Winci: the other points, fair enough, they do not concern TNT
  1519. 11:05:06 AM ektony_: so now you're twisting my arm?
  1520. 11:05:38 AM ektony_: i don't see anything too bad happening if TNT helps to bring your indexes up
  1521. 11:05:46 AM Da Winci: nope, it seems Wibla has a package to announce
  1522. 11:06:00 AM Da Winci: which wasnt agreed upon by me
  1523. 11:06:22 AM Da Winci: that is twisting my arm
  1524. 11:06:42 AM Da Winci: because was very clear on that
  1525. 11:07:30 AM Da Winci: anyway, my meeting is starting so that is what I'll announce
  1526. 11:08:07 AM Da Winci: we are perfectly capable of keeping our own indexes up
  1527. 11:08:43 AM ektony_: wibla is saying you guys haven't discussed ratting rights
  1528. 11:09:02 AM ektony_: you're giving me literally 5 minute warning to make a decision
  1529. 11:09:17 AM ektony_: saying i'm displeased with this is an understatement
  1530. 11:09:48 AM Da Winci: no, not me man, Wibla announced this to me, forcing me to tell my guys
  1531. 11:09:57 AM Da Winci: i'm not twisting, he is
  1532. 11:10:06 AM Da Winci: dont put this in my shoes
  1533. 11:14:35 AM ektony_: i think you're rushing it, wibla said he's going to mention sov part only
  1534. 11:14:50 AM ektony_: not sure where you're getting "package" part from
  1535. 11:14:53 AM Da Winci: so will I then
  1536. 11:15:14 AM ektony_: without hashing it out with Wibla first?
  1537. 11:16:01 AM ektony_: mentioning sov is fine
  1538. 11:16:26 AM ektony_: wibla was aware that ratting was something we are still talking with you (and I know your feeling on it, too)
  1539. 12:26:50 PM Da Winci: meeting done
  1540. 12:27:08 PM Da Winci: only mentioned the sov cause thats a done deal
  1541. 12:27:51 PM Da Winci: didn't go into the 4 and a half points still on the table
  1542. Since the rental empire wasn’t something we’d be able to run under Fozziesov, we did tentatively agree to give CO2 Vale space pending how Bastion and Lawn worked out. Shortly thereafter, before anything was finalized, CO2 pilots were caught buzzing Bastion space telling Bastion to get ready to move out since it would soon be CO2 space. This was exactly as fun as it sounds like to deal with. Shortly thereafter Gigx personally started shooting TNT pilots, which was also as fun as it sounds like to deal with and upset Wibla a great deal. Why? Because Wibla accepted a corp that Gigx didn’t like.
  1544. We still ended up giving CO2 more space in Vale though. Whereupon they asked us to upgrade stuff for them for their troubles. At this point I was unsure if this was a comedy or a tragedy. May 12th, 2015.
  1546. 7:51:42 AM dawincico2: we have reached an agreement
  1547. 7:52:09 AM sion_kumitomo] ?
  1548. 7:52:20 AM dawincico2: http://evemaps.dotla...e_Silent/DMXN-3 will go to CO2
  1549. 7:52:56 AM sion_kumitomo: oh? how's that conversation go?
  1550. 7:53:01 AM dawincico2: if CONDI is willing to upgrade http://evemaps.dotla...e_Silent/LZ-6SU
  1551. 7:53:13 AM sion_kumitomo: uh, no
  1552. 7:53:38 AM sion_kumitomo: we're not upgrading stuff, can't even afford to upgrade our own stuff
  1553. 7:53:39 AM dawincico2: it was my Bday last yesterday and his today, so the convo was in good spirits
  1554. 7:53:55 AM sion_kumitomo: ah, well happy belated birthday
  1555. 7:54:02 AM dawincico2: thanks!
  1556. 7:54:13 AM dawincico2: he asked me to present it
  1557. 7:54:19 AM sion_kumitomo: but I'm not upgrading a station for either of you as a birthday present 
  1558. 7:55:14 AM dawincico2: argh
  1559. 7:55:37 AM dawincico2: any kind of begging will change that? :simple_smile:
  1560. 7:55:41 AM sion_kumitomo: nope
  1561. 7:57:25 AM dawincico2: he is looking for something to present his alliance - which is something I cannot offer him
  1562. 7:57:44 AM sion_kumitomo: and the best constellation in the region doesn't count eh
  1563. 7:57:52 AM sion_kumitomo: I'll talk to him
  1564. 7:58:01 AM dawincico2: he ignored that proposal
  1565. 7:58:12 AM dawincico2: went straight to this one
  1566. 7:58:46 AM sion_kumitomo: no worries
  1567. 7:59:11 AM sion_kumitomo: it's starting to feel a bit greedy over there and that makes me rather less than happy
  1568. 8:00:04 AM sion_kumitomo: bit weird too
  1569. 8:00:09 AM sion_kumitomo: anyway, I'll talk to him later
  1570. 8:00:18 AM dawincico2: appreciated
  1571. 8:00:32 AM sion_kumitomo: I'd like to get this nailed down today if at all possible
  1572. 8:00:34 AM dawincico2: I'll poke GSOL for Trib transfer in the mean time
  1574. [SLYCE is recruiting]
  1577. Aryth, presumably still high on smug from calling the MMarlon thing correctly, breached coalition policy in what can only be described as spectacular fashion and snagged HARAT from CO2. CD was horrified, apologized profusely, and Aryth was yelled at repeatedly by Mirana. CO2 didn’t buy it as a the lone action of a self-professed sociopath however. For his part, Aryth offered what I am sure was a sincere “I just saw all this fallout. Wow. Sorry guys!” He followed that shortly by pointing out that they still owed him for rooting out MMarlon. May 19th, 2015.
  1579. 23:20:33 Da Winci> exactly - and that is why Aryth is persona non grata henceforth. Knowing he'll prolly get away with it, I'll keep that in mind next time someone taps CO2 on the shoulder. Not liking CO2 is one thing, blatant disregard of a very tight protocol another.
  1580. 23:20:56 Da Winci> Judge is aware of your intent on poking
  1581. 23:21:15 Da Winci> i'm going to bed
  1582. 23:21:18 Da Winci> ttyl
  1584. Then another corp, ITAI, left CO2. CO2 immediately demanded a blacklist for some vague reason that didn’t hold up under investigation and was instead another case of them being mad at someone and trying to bar them from the coalition. Amusingly, when ITAI originally joined CO2 CD had warned them that they would likely be trouble.
  1586. September 16th, 2015:
  1588. (5:17:52 AM) Are you active mate?
  1589. (5:18:34 AM) hi
  1590. (5:18:39 AM) Howdy
  1591. (5:19:51 AM) I am wondering if you can help at all with this RC blacklist. Da Winci has put this corp and the ceo/directors onto it already, but they dont show up
  1592. (5:20:04 AM) I am hoping I can get it sorted before I go to bed
  1593. (5:21:47 AM) Blacklist stuff goes through a vetting before it's actually put on the list formally. It's intentionally not possible for a single person to be able to unilaterally add people to the blacklist. This was a problem with the FA era blacklist (virtually no vetting or regulations) and it resulted in us basically needing to throw the whole thing out the window.
  1594. (5:22:03 AM) For the blacklist to have weight, we need to guarantee everyone on there, should be on there.
  1595. (5:23:13 AM) As for the specific requests Da Winci put in, I think ektony has point on compiling everything. Given the scope of the request, the current evidence is nowhere near meets the generally accepted barrier for blacklisting so there's still a bit of work to be done there.
  1596. (5:23:44 AM) Basically we need enough evidence together that when someone looks at the entry in 3 years and doesn't remember who literally any of these people are, they'll know without a shadow of a doubt why they're on there.
  1597. (5:25:03 AM) I will inform Winci and our diplo team, since from what I can see we haven't been contacted by ektony yet.
  1598. (5:25:55 AM) It was literally just dropped on the guy about fifteen minutes ago, I doubt he's even woken up to read it yet
  1599. (5:26:47 AM) If ektony for some reason doesn't do anything with regard to it in the next day or so, I'll handle it myself.
  1600. (5:27:33 AM) No problem, thanks for the update. Hoping to make sure this goes through before it becomes a bigger mess
  1602. Upon investigation, it turned out to be a Da Winci grudge match thing, again. Draghkar subsequently started taking to calling him Da Whiney. September 20th, 2015.
  1604. (2:57:32 AM) Hey, free to chat for a bit?
  1605. (3:01:21 AM) howdy
  1606. (3:01:29 AM) should be possible yes
  1607. (3:01:40 AM) until wife calls for lunch
  1608. (3:01:51 AM) Cool, this hopefully shouldn't take long.
  1609. (3:02:28 AM) i like short talks, usually best ones
  1610. (3:02:37 AM) So ektony doesn't seem to be around and in his absence I'm going to deal with this whole corp blacklist thing myself. Can you walk me through the reasoning on why it's something we, as a coalition should do?
  1611. (3:03:58 AM) I understood it needs several people to confirm it
  1612. (3:04:17 AM) I can at least confirm the following..
  1613. (3:04:55 AM) have it on log - but in autocrats so not going to spill it - that Indy tried to poach FCON members
  1614. (3:05:09 AM) Tark will confirm I'm sure
  1615. (3:06:17 AM) also Carneros mentioning Indy shooting BSTN fc and pilots - because they did something Indy didn't like
  1616. (3:07:19 AM) I told Carneros I would deal with that so removed Indy from all jabber channels cause he went raging towards anybody he felt was 'out to get him'
  1617. (3:08:26 AM) So this is less a blacklist request from CO2 and more a request your making on behalf of a collection of Imperium Autocrats?
  1618. (3:08:43 AM) within CO2 he pissed off a ton of CEO's for poaching their members, his general abusive attitude and shooting fleet members
  1619. (3:08:58 AM) well, I cannot speak for Carneros and Tark
  1620. (3:09:31 AM) and to top it off, his corp (as a corp) decided not to pay last alliance dues
  1621. (3:09:49 AM) so we consider that alliance theft
  1622. (3:10:00 AM) hence the corp level entry
  1623. (3:10:44 AM) but I can ask Tark and Carneros to pitch in their request
  1624. (3:11:15 AM) The blacklisting criteria is generally that an individual or every single individual within a corporation (in the case of a corp blacklisting) is directly working to undermine the entire coalition.
  1625. (3:11:46 AM) Assuming he makes good on his back taxes owed to CO2, would that barrier still be met in co2's eyes?
  1626. (3:12:23 AM) I would still very much push for a blacklist of Indy himself tho
  1627. (3:12:51 AM) It's rather two separate issues, both with two highly differing standards.
  1628. (3:13:01 AM) A blacklist on IO himself and on his corp as a whole.
  1629. (3:13:03 AM) you'd need to know the dynamics of ITAI to really see why they are a siamese twin really
  1630. (3:14:36 AM) That may very well be true but where the blacklist is placed very much changes the dynamic.
  1631. (3:15:50 AM) it is my personal opinion that ITAI sucks people out of corps (because granted, Indy is annoyingly active when his bipolar self allows it) and will never be able to adhere to coalition standards thus pulling people out of the coalition
  1632. (3:16:31 AM) if anything it reminds me of Apocalypse Now
  1633. (3:17:27 AM) Personal opinion is the one thing we're trying to remove from the blacklist. Tt was what made the FA era one such garbage, unless you personally knew the person instating the blacklisting and valued their opinion, it was useless.
  1634. (3:18:01 AM) Things like chatlogs and killmails are the rule of the day for the new and ~improved~ blacklist
  1635. (3:18:28 AM) Things that in 5 years, no one who has any idea who any of these people are, will be able to use to get a sense of the situation
  1636. (3:18:47 AM) and that was too many negatives but it's 3 AM and fuck it
  1637. (3:18:51 AM)
  1638. (3:19:15 AM) 3am is a good time to make decisions :-D
  1639. (3:20:33 AM) It is, I got off work a few hours ago, roasted the shit out of a nice chicken and am now sipping on some whiskey and slanging the diplomacy.
  1640. (3:21:02 AM) sounds like a perfect context to slam the door on ITAI
  1641. (3:22:00 AM) from our side I will personally try to keep them out of the Imperium for as long as I carry some weight around here
  1642. (3:22:45 AM) without making it look too much of a CO2 vs ITAI thing
  1643. (3:22:55 AM) (which it isn't)
  1644. (3:23:07 AM) ITAI is a fairly large corp that has always managed to pull their weight as far as participation metrics are able to gather, I need something fairly severe if I'm to recommend we nuke that entire entity.
  1645. (3:23:50 AM) well, coalition lvl ban is your turf
  1646. (3:24:15 AM) we will keep Indy red as an alliance
  1647. (3:24:57 AM) I personally spent more hours trying to keep Indy in line than all others CEO's in CO2 put together
  1648. (3:25:16 AM) even Lucian James is a choir boy compared to him
  1649. (3:25:54 AM) like I said, the Apocalypse now scenario is bang on here
  1650. (3:26:17 AM) up to you guys to make the final call
  1651. (3:26:57 AM) and wife is looking hungry, my unspoken cue
  1652. (3:27:21 AM) feel free to poke me on this at any time
  1653. (3:27:51 AM) enjoy the bottom of your glass!
  1654. (3:28:18 AM) Alright well assuming ITAI "the corp" pays back the isk, I'm not really seeing a huge case for blacklisting that entire org outright. We can circle back on IO as an individual at a later date.
  1655. (3:28:51 AM) If he's regularly blue shooting, I could see a case being made.
  1656. (3:29:29 AM) If you could dig up killmails or even better a specific "list of sins" in the meantime, it'll make this easier all around.
  1658. Wibla, being the lovable scamp that he is, heard about CO2’s intense dislike for ITAI, and as soon as it became clear that there was no actual evidence that would warrant a corp wide blacklist entry even if it was widely agreed that their CEO was an abrasive jerk, Wibla gleefully picked them up. There’s a couple of fun things about this, the first is that CO2 was so annoyed by this guy for being “hard to deal with,” and that Wibla exacted his own kind of revenge for all the drama that had been ongoing with CO2 since TNT had moved fully into Tribute. It was the kind of move that you have to respect as a diplomat, perfectly deniable, entirely within the rules, and calculated to drive someone nuts.
  1660. CO2 reacted with their by then tradition composure. CO2 said they would never set ITAI blue, and would shoot them if they ever saw them in space. This was problematic since the two alliances shared a region, and matters quickly escalated as we’ll see in the following logs. October 24th, 2015.
  1662. [ 2015.10.24 19:11:04 ] La Nidalee > Hey!
  1663. [ 2015.10.24 19:11:12 ] La Nidalee > How are you?
  1664. [ 2015.10.24 19:14:42 ] Da Winci > i'm pretty fine
  1665. [ 2015.10.24 19:14:47 ] Da Winci > how are you?
  1666. [ 2015.10.24 19:18:19 ] Da Winci > that much to type?
  1667. [ 2015.10.24 19:18:32 ] La Nidalee > Sorry, MOA dropped
  1668. [ 2015.10.24 19:18:40 ] La Nidalee > Was trying to form a gang
  1669. [ 2015.10.24 19:18:46 ] Da Winci > we have 50 gorgon here
  1670. [ 2015.10.24 19:18:59 ] Da Winci > 60 formed in under 5min
  1671. [ 2015.10.24 19:19:11 ] La Nidalee > I just wanted to know what do you think about cap changes
  1672. [ 2015.10.24 19:19:57 ] Da Winci > Seb is happy so I'm happy also
  1673. [ 2015.10.24 19:20:08 ] La Nidalee > Yeah i find them interesting
  1674. [ 2015.10.24 19:20:10 ] Da Winci > will give people a reason to fight over
  1675. [ 2015.10.24 19:20:14 ] La Nidalee > My dread may actually be useful again
  1676. [ 2015.10.24 19:20:26 ] La Nidalee > And i'm kinda glad that i got rid of my super and character
  1677. [ 2015.10.24 19:20:30 ] La Nidalee > They sound... Boring
  1678. [ 2015.10.24 19:20:38 ] Da Winci > noooo
  1679. [ 2015.10.24 19:21:37 ] La Nidalee > No?
  1680. [ 2015.10.24 19:21:44 ] Da Winci > at first sight I find the cap changes okay
  1681. [ 2015.10.24 19:21:48 ] La Nidalee > Well, i gave my spare ISK to a corpmate
  1682. [ 2015.10.24 19:21:54 ] La Nidalee > And now we have a titan to bridge
  1683. [ 2015.10.24 19:21:55 ] La Nidalee >
  1684. [ 2015.10.24 19:26:06 ] La Nidalee > Hmmm... Anything new in CO2?
  1685. [ 2015.10.24 19:30:30 ] Da Winci > a issue brewing between CO2 and TNT yes
  1686. [ 2015.10.24 19:30:36 ] Da Winci > they will recruit ITAI
  1687. [ 2015.10.24 19:30:49 ] Da Winci > we will hold negative standings for ITAI
  1688. [ 2015.10.24 19:33:30 ] La Nidalee > Oh
  1689. [ 2015.10.24 19:33:40 ] La Nidalee > They are joining TNT?
  1690. [ 2015.10.24 19:33:46 ] Da Winci > yes
  1691. [ 2015.10.24 19:34:19 ] La Nidalee > Is it that bad? You really want them dead, are you?
  1692. [ 2015.10.24 19:35:04 ] Da Winci > euhm, as per coalition policy I was under the impression that blue fucking is blowing up your bridges
  1693. [ 2015.10.24 19:35:33 ] La Nidalee > They were blowing up your bridges after kick?
  1694. [ 2015.10.24 19:36:14 ] Da Winci > they caused drama in several alliances and with several alliances
  1695. [ 2015.10.24 19:36:28 ] Da Winci > that is IN and WITH
  1696. [ 2015.10.24 19:36:54 ] Da Winci > have logs from both Tark and Carneros complaining about Indy
  1697. [ 2015.10.24 19:37:13 ] La Nidalee > I assume you talked with TNT diplos about it?
  1698. [ 2015.10.24 19:37:13 ] Da Winci > Myself had huge issues
  1699. [ 2015.10.24 19:37:21 ] Da Winci > to Wibla yes
  1700. [ 2015.10.24 19:37:42 ] Da Winci > then they leave and decide as corp to NOT pay their dues
  1701. [ 2015.10.24 19:37:53 ] La Nidalee > They still owe you money?
  1702. [ 2015.10.24 19:37:59 ] Da Winci > which is stealing
  1703. [ 2015.10.24 19:38:31 ] Da Winci > then they throw every possible insult at CO2 and come roam in Trib specifically
  1704. [ 2015.10.24 19:39:23 ] Da Winci > and now they wanna live peacefully nextdoor?
  1705. [ 2015.10.24 19:39:25 ] Da Winci > nah
  1706. [ 2015.10.24 19:39:28 ] La Nidalee > So they still should pay you money?
  1707. [ 2015.10.24 19:39:37 ] La Nidalee > I mean, those 2 bils are still unpaid?
  1708. [ 2015.10.24 19:39:43 ] Da Winci > indeed
  1709. [ 2015.10.24 19:39:52 ] Da Winci > and idc about 2b
  1710. [ 2015.10.24 19:40:20 ] La Nidalee > Well they were quite active in pvp so i'm not surprised TNT wants them
  1711. [ 2015.10.24 19:43:12 ] Da Winci > so i understand it doesnt matter as long as a corp is active in pvp right?
  1712. [ 2015.10.24 19:44:15 ] La Nidalee > Well since TNT had no such problems yet
  1713. [ 2015.10.24 19:44:20 ] La Nidalee > They might think it's a good idea
  1714. [ 2015.10.24 19:44:37 ] La Nidalee > Maybe they will get better anyway
  1715. [ 2015.10.24 19:44:51 ] La Nidalee > I'll ask TNT and other diplos about it
  1716. [ 2015.10.24 19:45:01 ] La Nidalee > We can't really have red standings inside the coalition :\
  1717. [ 2015.10.24 19:45:27 ] Da Winci > don't even try to turn the table
  1718. [ 2015.10.24 19:45:43 ] Da Winci > those red standings preceed them being in TNT
  1719. [ 2015.10.24 19:45:58 ] Da Winci > TNT decides to recruit a red corp
  1720. [ 2015.10.24 19:46:04 ] La Nidalee > I see
  1721. [ 2015.10.24 19:46:31 ] Da Winci > weeks ago I started the procedure of blacklisting them
  1722. [ 2015.10.24 19:46:36 ] La Nidalee > Is there anything they can do to remove red standings from them?
  1723. [ 2015.10.24 19:46:39 ] Da Winci > waaaaay before this
  1724. [ 2015.10.24 19:46:55 ] Da Winci > so lets be very very clear
  1725. [ 2015.10.24 19:47:16 ] Da Winci > the table will NOT be turned on this one
  1726. [ 2015.10.24 19:47:35 ] Da Winci > we have every right to put corps red
  1727. [ 2015.10.24 19:48:22 ] Da Winci > if I would follow TNT reasoning I could recruit any and all corp that CONDI has set to red
  1728. [ 2015.10.24 19:48:39 ] Da Winci > and twist your arm to blue them
  1729. [ 2015.10.24 19:48:57 ] Da Winci > so dont turn around the table
  1730. [ 2015.10.24 19:49:41 ] Da Winci > so yes, I already informed Wibla that CO2 will hold negative standings
  1731. [ 2015.10.24 19:52:47 ] La Nidalee > Okay i see
  1732. [ 2015.10.24 19:53:02 ] La Nidalee > I will tell everyone then just to make sure they realise
  1733. [ 2015.10.24 19:53:06 ] La Nidalee > [19:46:36] La Nidalee > Is there anything they can do to remove red standings from them?
  1734. [ 2015.10.24 19:53:34 ] Da Winci > disband?
  1735. [ 2015.10.24 19:53:39 ] La Nidalee > Got it
  1736. [ 2015.10.24 19:57:45 ] La Nidalee > Alright
  1737. [ 2015.10.24 19:59:46 ] Da Winci > and their CEO will stay on red ad infinitum. If the corp disbands or not
  1738. [ 2015.10.24 20:12:02 ] La Nidalee > Welp. I'll tell them.
  1739. [ 2015.10.24 20:12:08 ] La Nidalee > Alright, well, cya then
  1740. [ 2015.10.24 20:12:11 ] La Nidalee > Let's see how it goes
  1741. [ 2015.10.24 20:12:17 ] Da Winci > kk
  1742. [ 2015.10.24 20:12:20 ] Da Winci > o7
  1744. Gigx, the guy who said he’d send over guys to someone’s house in real life, complaining about being insulted. October 28th, 2015
  1746. (11:01:18 AM) TNT just recruited ITAI - that corp stole from CO2, poached people from other Imperium alliances, poeached from CO2 corporations, threating minilav group, made alot diplomatic issues with other alliances in coalition, and was kicked and put on -10 permamently by CO2
  1747. CO2 will keep that corp on negative standings
  1748. Game mechanics the only way to do that is to give all TNT corps +10 and set that one corp -10
  1751. No problems with TNT, we just dont want that corp living and playing in our space
  1752. (11:02:32 AM) after kick they came to tribute every day and attack CO2 pilots
  1753. (11:02:43 AM) insulted CO2 in local every chance they had
  1755. And of course a day later, CO2 shot up the now TNT flagged ITAI, and as is correct under coalition policy, Wibla politely asked for reimbursement of his pilots. Nina Blaze has the patience of a saint. October 29th, 2015.
  1757. (3:12:19 PM) Nina Blaze: Afternoon, are you around?
  1758. (3:12:46 PM) howdy there
  1759. (3:13:10 PM) how can I help?
  1760. (3:13:56 PM) Nina Blaze: So, it seems CO2 have decided to actually act on the threat of shooting another coalition member (blue), and from what I hear, you are refusing to reimburse the TNT pilot in question http://inextremis.ev...kll_id=31032424
  1761. (3:14:00 PM) Nina Blaze: Is that correct?
  1762. (3:15:21 PM) the decision to keep ITAI red was taken long before they joined and keeping them on red was communicated to all
  1763. (3:15:50 PM) so obviously we dont see that acting out a threat
  1764. (3:15:59 PM) we shoot reds in our space
  1765. (3:16:00 PM) Nina Blaze: Correct, but as la_nidalee has explained, alliance level standings do not override coalition level standings or policies
  1766. (3:16:44 PM) Nidalee rarely explains something, and certainly not that
  1767. (3:17:31 PM) but we dont feel like having the table turned on us. We even filed for a blacklisting of the corp
  1768. (3:17:50 PM) which CD didnt follow through for some reason
  1769. (3:18:42 PM) Nina Blaze: I'm sure you are well aware of that fact, and playing coy isn't going to work here. The simple fact is, this is a egregious breach of coalition policy, and unless the pilots are reimbursed, and the policy followed, Sion and Mittani will have to get involved.
  1770. (3:19:26 PM) Nina Blaze: We received your blacklist request, and decided that there wasn't enough evidence to warrent a blacklisting of ITAI as a whole or Industrial Obliterator. That should have been communicated to you once it was determined
  1771. (3:19:55 PM) Nina Blaze: now you can choose to blacklist their members and him from your alliance of course, that is your choice
  1772. (3:20:46 PM) Nina Blaze: and others can choose not to give the Imperium blacklist merit, and recruit pilots on it if they so choose, but we will advise against it, and ban them from GSF services, if the situation so warrents
  1773. (3:22:24 PM) I find it funny that in this instance CD is really close on the ball when it comes to coalition policies. How does this issue weigh against poaching a blue corp?
  1774. (3:22:53 PM) or that you even feel like hearing our position
  1775. (3:22:58 PM) Nina Blaze: Corps are free to go where ever they please
  1776. (3:23:12 PM) noted
  1777. (3:23:17 PM) Nina Blaze: we can't and shouldn't stop people and corps from enjoying the game how they see fit
  1778. (3:23:26 PM) noted again
  1779. (3:25:26 PM) first word from CD on this is fullon on the offensive. Like 23 seconds after Wibla closed convo. That is like a prepared move to scare us shitless?
  1780. (3:25:30 PM) Nina Blaze: now we can help facilitate some of the harder conversations, and CD plays a part when corps outside of GSF approach us about joining, but we have no part or say in what corps allies choose to recruit
  1781. (3:26:15 PM) no worries, I have a very clear view on how the Harat recruiting went down
  1782. (3:27:33 PM) Nina Blaze: Nope, it's a response to Wibla informing me (and me just getting back to my computer to see his message) that a TNT pilot has been blown up by a CO2, and that allegedly Industrial Obliterator is camped into a CO2 station (J-GAMP). I say allegedly because I havent been able to verify this.
  1783. (3:28:31 PM) I couldnt care less about ITAI and Indy now
  1784. (3:28:35 PM) Nina Blaze: I'm not concerned with the past, and how you interrupt certain events that took place, I'm focused on the issue at hand, which is CO2 members violating Coalition policy, and being encouraged to do so by CO2 leadership
  1785. (3:28:58 PM) encouraged?
  1786. (3:29:17 PM) elaborate pls
  1787. (3:29:33 PM) Nina Blaze: Well 2 things
  1788. (3:30:51 PM) Nina Blaze: 1) You set ITAI red, so you're encouraging problems, and telling your members that they are hostile and okay to shoot 2) It's come to my attention that gigx sent an alliance mail out (it's on eveskunk) stating the -10 standings, and that ITAI was KOS in CO2 space
  1789. (3:31:01 PM) Nina Blaze: Does that not seem like encouragement to you?
  1790. (3:32:14 PM) 1) ITAI was red months before they joined TNT - does it sound like coalition members felt it was needed to contact us?
  1791. (3:33:11 PM) 2) is a confirmation of continious red standings and telling people not to hunt them and/or go roam (for them) in TNT space
  1792. (3:33:24 PM) Nina Blaze: Again, alliance standings have never trumped coalition standings when it comes to blues
  1793. (3:33:46 PM) the issue is contrary to what you're trying not created by us
  1794. (3:34:07 PM) Wibla was told prior to ITAI joining that we would keep red standings
  1795. (3:34:45 PM) so acting all offended when this happens is... well, late
  1796. (3:35:18 PM) if Wibla felt that strongly he should have contacted CD before ITAI joined
  1797. (3:35:31 PM) Nina Blaze: That's fine, again, that's up to the alliance, but if a corp that was red to your alliance (or nuetral), joins a Imperium alliance, they are OBVIOUSLY now blue to the coalition
  1798. (3:36:06 PM) Nina Blaze: this should be blatantly obvious by the fact that you (your alliance) had to essentially reset your standings with TNT as a whole, then +10 every single corp, and set ITAI -10
  1799. (3:36:19 PM) Nina Blaze: what would happen if a new corp joined TNT that you hadn't set +10 standings to
  1800. (3:36:27 PM) Nina Blaze: one of your pilots saw him in space
  1801. (3:36:29 PM) Nina Blaze: and blew him up
  1802. (3:36:41 PM) Nina Blaze: Do you think your not responsible for that loss?
  1803. (3:36:50 PM) don't lecture me on the obvious
  1805. [SLYCE is recruiting]
  1807. (3:37:24 PM) the facts remains that this was to be exected before they joined
  1808. (3:37:56 PM) Wibla chose to force it on us and go 'meh, lets see if CO2 follow through on this'
  1809. (3:38:26 PM) Nina Blaze: Da Winci, it's as simple as this
  1810. (3:38:32 PM) Nina Blaze: CO2 is a member of the Imperium
  1811. (3:38:40 PM) Nina Blaze: The Imperium has rules and policies
  1812. (3:39:22 PM) Nina Blaze: if you want to be IN the imperium, as an alliance, corp, or member of a corp, you MUST follow the coalition policy set in place
  1813. (3:39:49 PM) Nina Blaze: You have every right to argue and dispute rules and policies
  1814. (3:40:40 PM) Nina Blaze: but as a member of the Imperium, whatever the end result is of discussions about policies, you're expected to follow them at the end of the day
  1815. (3:41:28 PM) Nina Blaze: Again, if you choose not to follow these policies, La_nidalee and I will have to escalate this to Sion and Mittani
  1816. (3:41:35 PM) Nina Blaze: and they will ultimately decide what to do
  1817. (3:41:58 PM) Nina Blaze: this isn't anything new, or any sort of special treatment, it's how things are and have been (and for good reason)
  1818. (3:41:59 PM) question, you want ITAI in and CO2 out?
  1819. (3:42:07 PM) Nina Blaze: It doesn't matter what I want
  1820. (3:42:32 PM) Nina Blaze: I WANT everyone to get along, and for us to not stress about this silyl internet spaceship game we all play
  1821. (3:43:12 PM) again, we didnt have this conversation when CO2 got poached
  1822. (3:43:33 PM) Nina Blaze: and in order for that to happen, and for our giant empire to succeed, rules and policies need to be followed
  1823. (3:43:44 PM) ^^
  1824. (3:43:45 PM) Nina Blaze: Again, I'm not concerned with the past
  1825. (3:43:57 PM) Nina Blaze: you can cite whatever event or incident you want
  1826. (3:44:02 PM) Nina Blaze: but the current issue doesn't change
  1827. (3:44:12 PM) dont know the word in English but that is a 'sofisme'
  1828. (3:44:45 PM) claiming the past is none of your concerns is ending any useful discussion
  1829. (3:45:02 PM) so if I sit tight and wait for 2 weeks all of this is the past
  1830. (3:45:57 PM) rules and policies seem to enforced depending on who wants them enforced
  1831. (3:46:13 PM) Nina Blaze: no, if your members continue to kill blues, this will escalate much faster (i'm sure)
  1832. (3:46:40 PM) Nina Blaze: this is black and white
  1833. (3:46:49 PM) Nina Blaze: pretty much as black and white as you can get
  1834. (3:46:59 PM) yep
  1835. (3:47:00 PM) Nina Blaze: CO2 is violating coalition policy, and shooting blues
  1836. (3:47:16 PM) Nina Blaze: I'll use a terrible American reference
  1837. (3:47:23 PM) Nina Blaze: There are Federal laws and state laws in the US
  1838. (3:47:38 PM) Nina Blaze: Federal laws always apply
  1839. (3:48:05 PM) Nina Blaze: doesn't matter if the state says this is legal, if the Federal law says it isn't, that will be enforced at the federal level
  1840. (3:48:29 PM) no please, not again. You will not admit to the fact rules seem to be enforced depending on who wants them enforced
  1841. (3:48:38 PM) (because 'the past is the past')
  1842. (3:49:07 PM) and you're not even being subtle in threatening to reset CO2
  1843. (3:49:47 PM) so I suggest you escalete this right away
  1844. (3:49:49 PM) Nina Blaze: Please, show me one case where it's been acceptable for an entire alliance within the Imperium to be allowed to shoot an entire corp that is blue and within a blue Imperium alliance
  1845. (3:50:51 PM) Nina Blaze: It's also not my call to reset anyone
  1846. (3:51:06 PM) Nina Blaze: nor do I want that to happen
  1847. (3:51:17 PM) Nina Blaze: but I do have a vested interest in seeing this issue resolved
  1848. (3:52:05 PM) and your approach is to bluntly threaten us into paying
  1849. (3:52:18 PM) Nina Blaze: I'm not threatening anyone
  1850. (3:52:21 PM) Nina Blaze: I'm stating the facts
  1851. (3:52:41 PM) semantics again
  1852. (3:52:46 PM) Nina Blaze: CO2 is breaking a VERY CLEAR coalition policy
  1853. (3:52:55 PM) Nina Blaze: I'm trying to make you see reason
  1854. (3:53:10 PM) Nina Blaze: If you won't see reason, I'll let you speak with Sion (if you aren't already)
  1855. (3:53:32 PM) nope, but i'm sure he'll hold the same line
  1856. (3:54:29 PM) reasonable would be that an alliance doesnt recruit a corp red to their neighbors
  1857. (3:54:35 PM) Nina Blaze: Do you want me to ping him and have him contact you? I feel like you're not seeing the reason here, and if I can't do that, it's up to them
  1858. (3:54:38 PM) Nina Blaze: Historically
  1859. (3:54:45 PM) Nina Blaze: we have recruited TONS of red corps
  1860. (3:54:53 PM) Nina Blaze: and i mean red at a coalition level
  1861. (3:55:07 PM) we all have yes
  1862. (3:55:19 PM) Nina Blaze: Am0k was red to GSF when we were in Minor Threat
  1863. (3:55:40 PM) Nina Blaze: The inititive, ENLI to name a few
  1864. (3:55:48 PM) Nina Blaze: recruiting red alliances isn't a new thing
  1865. (3:56:12 PM) Nina Blaze: and every time that happened, the coalition level (when a coalition existed) policy was followed
  1866. (3:57:14 PM) Nina Blaze: REASONABLE, would be a good standing member of this coalition, continuing to follow the policies and rules they were well aware of, when a former corp decided to join another alliance within the coalition
  1867. (3:58:41 PM) Nina Blaze: But I've said this multiple times, and despite the emotional response to ITAI joining TNT, I'm sure you are aware of all this
  1868. (3:59:23 PM) we are yes.
  1869. (4:00:42 PM) Nina Blaze: Now I've had to take a piss for the past 30 minutes, and I don't have a container near me to help this situation (even though I'm sitting at work in my cube and wouldn't do this), so I'd like to ask that you make a decision right now. Would you like to keep discussing this, in hopes of resolving the issue, by understanding and adhering to the coalition level policy, or would you like to take this up the chain, and talk with Sion.
  1870. (4:03:43 PM) I will go take a shower and think on this. But seen the fact you're not willing to acknowledge that the stringent adhering to policies is and has been open to debate I dont see how to resolve this. Because it would present us with a much more complex picture than the 'black/white' one you're trying to paint
  1871. (4:04:31 PM) Nina Blaze: That's perfectly alright, I hope I can take a leak faster then you can shower
  1872. (4:04:41 PM) 15min will do
  1873. (4:06:21 PM) Nina Blaze: I'd be happy to discuss the complex picture when we get back though
  1874. (4:29:23 PM) i'm back
  1875. (4:29:37 PM) took a little longer than anticipated
  1876. (4:30:13 PM) Nina Blaze: no problem, I got some snacks
  1877. (4:33:09 PM) so where were we?
  1878. (4:33:26 PM) reading this dino convo again
  1879. (4:33:40 PM) Nina Blaze: You wanted to talk about the complex picture that this issue is, and argue it's not so black and white
  1880. (4:34:01 PM) and your point being reason and reason only
  1881. (4:34:47 PM) I think we have a huge issue here that is underlying
  1882. (4:35:38 PM) the general feeling we have is that coalition rules are not that clear-cut for everyone at all times
  1883. (4:35:44 PM) they usually are
  1884. (4:36:04 PM) and as such are a (t)rusty framework
  1885. (4:36:21 PM) the friction between TNT and CO2 goes back some time now
  1886. (4:37:46 PM) the frustrating feeling about several issues in the past (sorry) between CO2 and TNT has led to this (socalled) stubborn position
  1887. (4:38:37 PM) I myself and leadership as a whole strongly have the feeling he went 'shrug, fuck them' and proceeded
  1888. (4:39:15 PM) if you take the black/white stance that would be (is) perfectly within his right
  1889. (4:40:21 PM) Nina Blaze: I can totally see that, and understand the tension that's there (and am honestly surprised you guys have been getting along so well the last several months )
  1890. (4:41:00 PM) Nina Blaze: and for something less serious, an actual debate on the policy (generally before actually breaking it), and if it should change, could totally happen
  1891. (4:41:05 PM) but in the current meta of all alliances basically living on isolated islands and depending mainly on their neighbors ... we feel it's putting relations on an alltime low to blatantly disregard your closest neighbor
  1892. (4:41:57 PM) any corp would have made us go meh
  1893. (4:42:03 PM) except this one
  1894. (4:42:34 PM) Nina Blaze: but when you talk about something like this, where line members are involved, and actual negative impact to peoples ~gameplay and fun~ is happening, possibly to people that you guys have no issues with (I'm sure you don't feel this way about every single member in ITAI), debate on if this is acceptable or not is really out of the question
  1895. (4:42:56 PM) Nina Blaze: And really, this is the totally wrong way to broach this
  1896. (4:43:43 PM) Personally I would settle for Indy being kicked from ITAI and the coalition.
  1897. (4:44:33 PM) but take into account past friction and you will find CO2 leadership as a block way less forgiving
  1898. (4:44:48 PM) Nina Blaze: Again, we deemed that blacklisting his corporation, and/or him, was not fair, and the evidence presented to us was what we were acting upon
  1899. (4:46:45 PM) Nina Blaze: Indeed, but you, as a leader, need to take a step back and really think about if this is what's best for your alliance. How does ITAI even impact you now, they're gone from CO2, and out of your hair. If they try to stir shit, that can and will be dealt with, and trust me when I say Wibla doesn't want to deal with drama from within TNT
  1900. (4:46:54 PM) kicked from GENTS - on autocrat log Tark saying he is poaching from FCON - Carneros on autocrat wanting him gone for shooting blues and causng drama - stealing from our alliance - poaching from our alliance -
  1901. (4:47:27 PM) Nina Blaze: On the "stealing from alliance" note, I've seen proof that the unpaid taxes have been paid
  1902. (4:47:42 PM) Nina Blaze: and I thought la_nidalee told me you confirmed that too
  1903. (4:47:59 PM) lol yes, but that doesnt negate the fact they actuaally stole first right?
  1904. (4:48:38 PM) I did not confirm anything of the kind
  1905. (4:49:07 PM) they did pay yes, trying to slip in next door
  1906. (4:49:30 PM) it's a meagre 2b and some afaik
  1907. (4:49:54 PM) not counting the Tech tower they held after they left
  1908. (4:50:06 PM) but the iskies is not the issue
  1910. [SLYCE is recruiting]
  1913. (4:50:46 PM) you dont steal from a blue alliance right
  1914. (4:51:56 PM) Nina Blaze: So did you or anyone from CO2 reach out to Wibla about recovering these things and setting things right? Everything I have heard is CO2 reached out to TNT stating you'd be setting ITAI red, and there wasn't much of a discussion
  1915. (4:52:52 PM) ermm, its hard to reach out when information reaches me like 24 hours before it happens
  1916. (4:54:04 PM) Nina Blaze: Fair enough, and this is completely up to TNT and Wibla, but they could have reached out to you to ask your opinion, but ultimately, ITAI was neutral, and they didn't need to ask permission or anything like that
  1917. (4:54:51 PM) neutral to TNT - for sure not to CO2, i'm sure of that part
  1918. (4:55:25 PM) if anybody in TNT would have actually listened to us we wouldnt be having this conversation
  1919. (4:55:52 PM) Nina Blaze: My point being, maybe the approach that was taken wasn't the best, it seems like there wasn't a lot of discussion, just a lot of threats, and despite CO2 and TNT's history of tension, I'd like to hope that wouldn't be the first option you looked at
  1920. (4:56:10 PM) Nina Blaze: Sure, and again, it's 100% up to TNT whether they want to allow them in or not.
  1921. (4:56:14 PM) Nina Blaze: It's not up to either of us
  1922. (4:56:19 PM) Nina Blaze: we can advise, and give feedback
  1923. (4:56:21 PM) Nina Blaze: and hope they listen
  1924. (4:56:39 PM) Nina Blaze: but TNT is Wibla's, and him and his dudes are free to recruit who they want, just like you guys
  1925. (4:56:43 PM) also, it was said in dilpo channel when ITAI left that we would keep them red and we advized everyone not to recruit them
  1926. (4:57:16 PM) so we feel we followed every possible procedure
  1927. (4:57:46 PM) and thus we feel TNT recruiting them anyway is a slap in the face
  1928. (4:57:47 PM) Nina Blaze: That's fine, and if you guys felt strongly that way, it makes sense, but it's still not your decision, nor GSF's, or anyones but TNT on if they want to recruit that corp
  1929. (4:58:31 PM) and specially gigX doesnt react very well to that
  1930. (4:58:36 PM) (to say the least)
  1931. (4:59:13 PM) in a way (and most of us agree) that outweighs keeping ITAI in the coalition
  1932. (4:59:26 PM) Nina Blaze: How successful do you think we as a coalition would have been in the past if we took some sort of super overlord stance, and tried to police who could and couldn't join allies. Why do you think CO2 deserves the right to do that? I think it's pretty obvious nobody would be happy with that situation
  1933. (5:00:03 PM) nor would people be happy keeping IO in coalition
  1934. (5:01:32 PM) Nina Blaze: I've never had a problem with him that I can recall, but I know he's ruffled feathers with various GSF directors for sure
  1935. (5:02:11 PM) Nina Blaze: but again, those pre-madona GSF directors don't make the call on who is allowed to join TNT
  1936. (5:02:14 PM) Nina Blaze: or any alliance
  1937. (5:02:16 PM) Nina Blaze: (thank fuck)
  1938. (5:03:29 PM) Nina Blaze: This ain't communist China
  1939. (5:03:53 PM) Nina Blaze: Who I think really does get to choose what corporations do business or not in their country lol
  1940. (5:08:55 PM) it's not a whim - and if, like with SECTION 8, an alliance says to not recruit a given corp, standing policy is not to
  1941. (5:10:22 PM) we feel we followed every possible step in every possible procedure to make sure this situation wouldnt arise
  1942. (5:10:36 PM) Nina Blaze: I'm confused, what are you referencing in SECTION 8?
  1943. (5:11:27 PM) they left TNT and diplo was pinged not to recruit them
  1944. (5:11:37 PM) as did we with ITAI
  1945. (5:12:04 PM) Nina Blaze: A corp left TNT and then joined section 8, despite someone in TNT telling us not to recruit them?
  1946. (5:12:26 PM) no, section 8 is the corp tat left TNT
  1947. (5:12:39 PM) and TNT pinged diplo to not recruit them
  1948. (5:12:50 PM) nobody did
  1949. (5:13:07 PM) Nina Blaze: OH
  1950. (5:13:12 PM) ITAI was kicked from CO2
  1951. (5:13:20 PM) Nina Blaze: I was thinking of the renter corp thing
  1952. (5:13:58 PM) Nina Blaze: Again, that's fine, TNT can advise people not to recruit them for x, x and x reasons, but it's not up to them
  1953. (5:14:22 PM) and yet all adhered to that
  1954. (5:14:36 PM) we pinged and set -10
  1955. (5:14:40 PM) Nina Blaze: Sure, but they most definitely didn't have to
  1956. (5:14:52 PM) so we feel our arm twisted in this
  1957. (5:15:12 PM) Nina Blaze: If a blacklist request came in, and there was evidence supporting them to be added to the blacklist and they were, that's fine.
  1958. (5:15:14 PM) like I said, it's not black/white
  1959. (5:15:28 PM) there was a bl request
  1960. (5:15:29 PM) Nina Blaze: Doesn't mean people can't recruit them still
  1961. (5:15:47 PM) Nina Blaze: THAT policy, may not seem black and white (the blacklist policy), and it isn't
  1962. (5:15:51 PM) Nina Blaze: it's all a judgement call
  1963. (5:15:53 PM) Nina Blaze: but shooting blues
  1964. (5:15:57 PM) Nina Blaze: THAT is black and white, you have to admit
  1965. (5:16:34 PM) seen the context it still feels very gray to us
  1966. (5:17:14 PM) Nina Blaze: Shooting blues is still gray to you?
  1967. (5:17:42 PM) Nina Blaze: Vile Rat would say differently if that wonderful man were here today :/
  1968. (5:17:50 PM) shooting ITAI is - dont corner me on shooting blues across the board
  1969. (5:18:09 PM) I myself have been shot by TNT guys more often than I care to remember
  1970. (5:18:36 PM) Nina Blaze: Okay, so again. What happens when a new corp joins TNT, and you don't have them explicitly set blue and they get blown up
  1971. (5:18:55 PM) Nina Blaze: Is this stance really worth it?
  1972. (5:19:01 PM) Nina Blaze: now you're involving guys that aren't even ITAI
  1973. (5:19:11 PM) Nina Blaze: because of a grudge you hold against a former CO2 corp
  1974. (5:19:20 PM) ow wow
  1975. (5:19:33 PM) now you reduce it to holding a grudge?
  1976. (5:20:02 PM) Nina Blaze: Well, that's all it really is right now isn't it? What would you call it?
  1977. (5:20:11 PM) is that the basic aasumption you make?
  1978. (5:20:15 PM) Nina Blaze: I think you used those words yourself actually
  1979. (5:20:22 PM) Nina Blaze: maybe not
  1980. (5:20:30 PM) I could hold a grudge against Harat
  1981. (5:20:34 PM) or DTHI
  1982. (5:20:37 PM) or MODRO
  1983. (5:20:51 PM) or any corp that left on bad standings
  1984. (5:21:25 PM) but reducing our stance as petty grudge is *gasp*
  1985. (5:22:02 PM) Nina Blaze: You call and label it what you will
  1986. (5:22:34 PM) Nina Blaze: It is an emotional response, to actions certain individuals did, that upset you
  1987. (5:22:47 PM) nope
  1988. (5:23:15 PM) Nina Blaze: Again, it doesn't matter in the context of the rules and policies that you adhere to as a member of this coalition
  1989. (5:23:55 PM) Nina Blaze: and breaking this rule, and negatively impacting people's ~fun~ will more then likely get you no where
  1990. (5:24:22 PM) Nina Blaze: I say more then likely, because it isn't my call as to the repercussions of this.
  1991. (5:24:30 PM) when it comes to adhering to rules I refer again to Harat poached and the string of reasons we gave for setting ITAI red -none of them are emotional, rather just factual
  1992. (5:25:29 PM) Nina Blaze: Historically, shooting blues has never been a good solution to anything
  1993. (5:26:55 PM) historically, getting all worked up for one socalled breach and ignoring others neither
  1994. (5:27:02 PM) Nina Blaze: So what's stopping me from setting Am0k red to, let's say Goonswarm, then claiming it's okay for am0k members to shoot goonswarm, because I decided we are red to them
  1995. (5:27:25 PM) if you would decide that on a whim that would be retarded
  1996. (5:28:12 PM) and its not setting someone red post joining
  1997. (5:28:26 PM) Nina Blaze: Would it be justifiable if I even had a reason? Knowing that shooting blues (and despite my corp setting them red, they are still blue from a coalition standpoint) is forbidden
  1998. (5:28:52 PM) Nina Blaze: The letter of the law says no
  1999. (5:29:14 PM) correct, and we, being reasonable, would have talked to all involved parties before creating this situation as did TNT
  2000. (5:30:05 PM) knowingly ignoring the obvious (this happening) and then calling us unreasonable is turning the tables
  2001. (5:37:16 PM) Nina Blaze: Again, and this is the last time I'm going to say this, because I can't talk in circles forever, if we find blacklisting them is not something we deem fair, and TNT chooses to recruit the corp anyway, that's their right, and it's not up to you. You have every right to blacklist ITAI members and the corp from CO2. You have no right to shoot coalition blues, despite your alliance standings. This is the last time I say this, and if you want to discuss this further, you can do so with Sion.
  2002. (5:41:46 PM) Nina Blaze: Seeing as how it's getting late EU time now, I'm going to have Sion ping you to discuss further.
  2003. (5:44:26 PM) coolio, seen it indeed is getting late you might want to do that
  2004. (5:44:56 PM) not sure how long I'll be around, but you'll find some leadership guy for sure
  2006. I, however, do not have the patience of a saint.
  2008. Buckle up gentle goons, if you’ve been skipping or skimming logs to this point, these next few are worth reading as we swiftly enter trainwreck zone. Same day.
  2010. (4:43:01 PM) hello
  2011. (4:43:21 PM) I'm told that you escalated this most recent diplomatic incident to me directly
  2012. (4:43:23 PM) so let's talk
  2013. (4:43:43 PM) howdy there
  2014. (4:44:19 PM) i'll try to focus to the best of my ability
  2015. (4:45:04 PM) we could have skipped the first 3 hours
  2016. (4:45:31 PM) I already know what the situation is
  2017. (4:45:45 PM) I'd like to know why you've decided to ignore longstanding coalition policy
  2018. (4:46:09 PM) blacklists aren't for ego driven grudge matches
  2019. (4:46:29 PM) nor is standings an optional thing for corps of imperium member alliances
  2020. (4:46:35 PM) so what the hell are you thinking
  2021. (4:46:56 PM) again, I refuse to let this be reduced to petty grudge
  2022. (4:47:26 PM) I'm entirely familiar with IO and itai, you'll recall I recommended that you guys not take them
  2023. (4:47:51 PM) they've been kicked out of basically every alliance they've been in, including many who are no longer around
  2024. (4:48:01 PM) I don't expect they'll have a longer shelf life in tnt either
  2025. (4:48:11 PM) so why in the fuck are you burning political capital on this dumb shit
  2026. (4:48:45 PM) because we don't want them living next to us basically
  2027. (4:49:16 PM) suck it up, that's the price you pay for not listening the first time around and consider it a lesson lightly learned
  2028. (4:49:37 PM) you don't get to dictate coalition policies based on feelings
  2029. (4:49:59 PM) and I'm frankly pissed off that you're making me defend itai and IO by being so boneheaded about this shit
  2030. (4:50:10 PM) why you keep saying feelings?
  2031. (4:50:28 PM) so stop making them defend them, just inform wibla that they're shitlers and eventually they'll get tossed out and hooray, everyone wins
  2032. (4:50:39 PM) I brought factual blue fuckery on the table when trying to blacklist them
  2033. (4:50:47 PM) and it was deemed 'not enough'
  2034. (4:50:53 PM) yup, that ruling stands
  2035. (4:51:17 PM) and I informed Wibla
  2036. (4:51:20 PM) well tried to
  2037. (4:51:21 PM) unless you can convince me that it was more substantial than what I saw, it will continue to stand
  2038. (4:51:59 PM) it wasnt at all very substantial because Draghkar made it very clear (subtly) that is wouldnt happen
  2039. (4:52:30 PM) and I cannot be arsed to compile every single instance in that context
  2040. (4:52:46 PM) *it wouldnt happen
  2041. (4:52:51 PM) so I dropped it
  2042. (4:53:02 PM) pinged diplo to not recruit them
  2043. (4:53:12 PM) and went on with my bussiness
  2044. (4:53:40 PM) to my big surprise I then find out they will join TNT
  2045. (4:53:54 PM) without as much as a squeek from their side
  2046. (4:54:08 PM) (and yes, I know, technically they dont have to)
  2047. (4:55:06 PM) correct, there's no obligation to inform anyone when someone recruits a neutral/red entity
  2048. (4:55:20 PM) so we feel that we're not being unreasonable here when we keep the line that Wibla was notified about prior to ITAI joining
  2049. (4:56:10 PM) I'm sorry wait
  2050. (4:56:26 PM) explain to me how anything about your reaction here was being reasonable
  2051. (4:56:46 PM) "we're going to shoot your member corp that you broke no rules in recruiting from lowsec"
  2052. (4:56:52 PM) what about that is reasonable
  2053. (4:57:09 PM) there is one very clear violation of coalition policy here
  2054. (4:57:13 PM) and that's all on you guys
  2055. (4:57:26 PM) so put the ego aside, and think about this rationally for a moment
  2056. (4:57:37 PM) yeah, IO is bad. I told you that
  2057. (4:57:39 PM) you didn't listen
  2058. (4:57:44 PM) you told wibla that
  2059. (4:57:47 PM) he didn't listen
  2060. (4:57:54 PM) project into the future a couple of months
  2061. (4:57:57 PM) hmm
  2062. (4:58:02 PM) what's the reasonable response here
  2063. (4:58:11 PM) 1) kick up a giant fuss and make a shit ton of drama
  2064. (4:58:24 PM) potentially getting evicted from the coalition in the process
  2065. (4:58:26 PM) or
  2066. (4:58:39 PM) 2) wait and tell wibla "I told you so" some months down the line
  2067. (4:58:47 PM) exactly like I'm telling you now
  2068. (4:58:59 PM) so
  2069. (4:59:01 PM) pick one
  2070. (4:59:05 PM) what sounds more reasonable to you
  2071. (5:01:16 PM) I will drag gigX in a room and pick one
  2072. (5:02:04 PM) he punted it back to you
  2073. (5:02:20 PM) so decide
  2074. (5:02:55 PM) I know because I can keep my cool better than he can and my English sounds better
  2075. (5:03:12 PM) well
  2076. (5:03:17 PM) then prove it
  2077. (5:03:36 PM) because shooting allies is not tolerated in this coalition, I don't care if they are giant assholes
  2078. (5:03:57 PM) until they break coalition policy, they're covered by the same protections as the rest
  2079. (5:04:10 PM) as soon as they break coalition policy, all bets are off
  2080. (5:04:35 PM) which is a not so subtle way of saying, since you're currently in major breach of coalition policy, that you're way out on the edge here
  2081. (5:05:03 PM) actively shooting allies is old northern coalition levels of bullshit
  2082. (5:06:02 PM) so either you tell me you'll keep this ego driven chest pounding bullshit in line and wait for the inevitable conclusion to how IO always gets kicked out, or I have to start spinning up plans for how to handle someone who no longer wants to be a coalition member in good standing
  2083. (5:17:14 PM) they voted as corp to not pay their dues - as such they breached coalition policy - so I cannot see how they kept protection afte that.
  2084. (5:17:35 PM) don't be weasely with me
  2085. (5:17:43 PM) I laid it all out, make your decision
  2086. (5:18:47 PM) seriously if you make me have to draw a distinction between alliance policy and coalition policy I'm going to get irate
  2087. (5:19:41 PM) wait, alliance theft is just a policy CO2 has?
  2088. (5:20:10 PM) not paying taxes isn't theft unless you're a libertarian
  2089. (5:20:20 PM) theft is what mmarlon did
  2090. (5:20:23 PM) it's not taxes
  2091. (5:20:25 PM) which we also warned you about
  2092. (5:20:36 PM) and you kicked them out, so hooray, problem solved
  2093. (5:21:30 PM) yep and with good reasons to bl them. which for some unclear reason didnt stick with CD at the time
  2094. (5:21:43 PM) I'm sorry
  2095. (5:21:46 PM) I don't think I was clear
  2096. (5:22:04 PM) I'm not going to rehash this, you have your decision points
  2097. (5:22:21 PM) so decide
  2098. (5:22:57 PM) of course, if you keep shooting allies I'm going to decide for you
  2099. (5:23:42 PM) really don't get it dude, you say you want to learn and that you want to prosecute realpolitik
  2100. (5:23:50 PM) and then you guys go and do something like this
  2101. (5:24:05 PM) so yeah, decide
  2102. (5:24:13 PM) nor can I understand you
  2103. (5:24:22 PM) you will go for ITAI over CO2
  2104. (5:24:56 PM) we can live with corps getting poached
  2105. (5:25:05 PM) they didn't get poached, they were neutral
  2106. (5:25:15 PM) remember, you tossed them out
  2107. (5:25:55 PM) so get down off that cross and just see it for what it is, you're mad that they got a home in the coalition after the stupid shit they did to you
  2108. (5:26:04 PM) so we go for 1
  2109. (5:26:09 PM) welcome to the club, every alliance they've ever been in has kicked them out
  2110. (5:26:21 PM) okay
  2111. (5:26:53 PM) continue shooting blues then, I'll have a response ready for you shortly after I inform wibla that you intend to keep shooting his people
  2113. And now, at last, we see what the great threat of eviction was. We’ll come back to this. October 30th, 2015, Seb tells Boat that “the next war will be very close to home.”
  2115. (9:26:46 AM) Yo
  2116. (9:27:43 AM) when you around and have time, I would love to chat ,3
  2117. (10:42:31 AM) sure
  2118. (10:42:33 AM) I'm here
  2119. (10:42:42 AM) sup
  2120. (10:42:51 AM) so
  2121. (10:42:53 AM) how are you
  2122. (10:42:59 AM) quite fine myself
  2123. (10:43:07 AM) watching a trainwreck in progress is always fun
  2124. (10:43:16 AM) trainwreck?
  2125. (10:44:37 AM) I won't spoil the surprise then
  2126. (10:44:47 AM) just saying the next war will be very close to home
  2127. (10:44:53 AM) woah
  2128. (10:44:55 AM) wtf
  2129. (10:44:59 AM) yeah about that
  2130. (10:45:09 AM) where are you on all this drama
  2131. (10:45:17 AM) well
  2132. (10:45:32 AM) I have often be the voice of reason in CO2 as you know
  2133. (10:45:42 AM) but on that case it's pretty clear cut for me
  2134. (10:46:28 AM) TNT recruited a corp that breached coalition rules (two of them at the very least), and because they are TNT Goons are all "that's cool, who cares about the rules anyway"
  2135. (10:47:05 AM) I personally believe in rules as long as they apply, but if they become optional, I'm not interested
  2136. (10:47:29 AM) might want to share that with mirana, because right now da winci hasn't shared any reason other then "fuck them they made us mad"
  2137. (10:47:36 AM) I don't give a shit about ITAI myself, never had any real drama with them
  2138. (10:48:02 AM) I always strive to stay faaaarrrrr away from drama myself
  2139. (10:48:43 AM) yeah
  2140. (10:48:44 AM) but
  2141. (10:48:45 AM) I am worried
  2142. (10:49:02 AM) but when a corp does an actual corp vote to leave and not pay a bill to the alliance and not say anything
  2143. (10:49:09 AM) and they did vote on that, they confirmed it themselves
  2144. (10:49:26 AM) oh wow
  2145. (10:49:32 AM) if it's not goonfucking (or balkanfucking in that case)
  2146. (10:49:35 AM) I don't know what is
  2147. (10:49:45 AM) well
  2148. (10:49:46 AM) again
  2149. (10:50:28 AM) I worry about friends/allies, and seeing this cause such a problem sucks
  2150. (10:50:38 AM) yeah well
  2151. (10:50:51 AM) we have had 2 wars, no co2, and now di winci wants to push this point
  2152. (10:50:53 AM) as his cross
  2153. (10:50:56 AM) it sucks
  2154. (10:50:58 AM) no
  2155. (10:51:05 AM) we do not want to push to a war
  2156. (10:51:29 AM) war, what?
  2157. (10:51:42 AM) why go on a cross over 1 corp
  2158. (10:51:45 AM) if its isk, ill pay it
  2159. (10:51:50 AM) it's not ISK
  2160. (10:51:59 AM) it's the principle of the thing
  2161. (10:52:14 AM) oh?
  2162. (10:52:26 AM) we cannot accept that ITAI can just re-join coalition white as a dove as if nothing ever happened
  2163. (10:52:48 AM) yeah but what im saying
  2164. (10:53:02 AM) to sion, from how it sounds, he doesn't have a valid reason other then "but fuck them"
  2165. (10:53:19 AM) I am no diplo
  2166. (10:53:23 AM) but I care about friends <3
  2167. (10:53:23 AM) neither am I
  2168. (10:54:09 AM) winci tells me he told him the entire thing, we gave them to be blacklisted when they left with the details, and then the next we hear Wibla recruits them and oh they never got blacklisted so no problem
  2169. (10:54:32 AM) anyway if people wants to talk to me, they know where to find me
  2170. (10:54:47 AM) I asked to talk to you, not as a diplo but as boat
  2171. (10:54:59 AM) you are most welcome
  2172. (10:55:02 AM) pretty funny too
  2173. (10:55:13 AM) I remember losing many a Drake under your fleets taking Tribute
  2174. (10:55:24 AM) good old days
  2175. (10:55:46 AM) <3
  2176. (10:55:48 AM) so
  2177. (10:55:52 AM) you think di winci would go that far?
  2178. (10:56:02 AM) what does gigx think?
  2179. (10:56:19 AM) ahahahah
  2180. (10:56:40 AM) da winci and the rest of the leadership is keeping gigx from shooting them right now
  2181. (10:56:47 AM) oh?
  2182. (10:56:59 AM) ITAI thought it would be funny to bring a hauler fleet on our undock
  2183. (10:57:10 AM) so gigx feels wronged by how that corp handled it, wanted them blacklisted, it didn't happen, tnt gets them, hes mad
  2184. (10:57:10 AM) you can imagine gigx reaction
  2185. (10:57:17 AM) pretty much
  2186. (10:57:38 AM) but our leadership was unanimous on it anyway
  2187. (10:57:41 AM) yeah
  2188. (10:57:49 AM) if not all for the same reasons
  2189. (10:58:07 AM) some because fuck indy, some because of the principle
  2190. (11:00:06 AM) yeah
  2191. (11:05:50 AM) well we have an alliance meeting tonight anyway, so our position will be made public then
  2192. (11:06:03 AM) so thats it huh?
  2193. (11:06:04 AM)
  2194. (11:06:23 AM) we aren't leaving or resetting anyone tonight
  2195. (11:06:35 AM) confused
  2196. (11:07:23 AM) we are going to explain the situation to our people and what we plan to do
  2197. (11:07:32 AM) nothing unreasonable, you know us
  2199. Later that day:
  2201. (4:16:59 PM) (4:15:25 PM) okay, we have decided
  2202. (4:15:29 PM) want the insider scoop
  2203. (4:16:12 PM) ohdear
  2204. (4:16:14 PM) do tell
  2205. (4:16:30 PM) they are being blued, and we are going to be nice
  2206. (4:16:35 PM) YAY
  2207. (4:16:37 PM) my man!
  2208. (4:16:39 PM) FOR NOW
  2210. And last one on this, again, same day. Gigx this time.
  2212. (9:30:39 AM) You here
  2213. (9:30:56 AM) This is exacly what I was telling to your diplos
  2214. (9:30:57 AM)
  2215. (9:31:04 AM) provoke by ITAI
  2216. (12:11:51 PM)
  2217. (12:13:03 PM)
  2218. (12:13:30 PM) so wibla is making fools CDs
  2219. (12:36:52 PM) I'm not sure that it's as provocative as blowing tnt guys up
  2220. (12:39:32 PM) I talked to da winci about this yesterday, he indicated to me that the escalation of drama was the path he was interested in as well so I'm not sure what you want me to do about this
  2221. (12:42:00 PM) Well you gave him 2 options
  2222. (12:42:05 PM) to set ITAI blue
  2223. (12:42:15 PM) or be kicked from CFC
  2224. (12:42:33 PM) means CFC dont need CO2
  2225. (12:43:00 PM) anyway we have alliance meeting to inform people
  2226. (12:43:15 PM) that they should expect ping about reseting
  2227. (12:43:19 PM) from Imperium
  2228. (12:46:05 PM) I see
  2229. (12:46:21 PM) so you're planning on leaving tribute then?
  2230. (12:46:32 PM) Well you planing to remove us
  2231. (12:46:40 PM) what else should we do
  2232. (12:46:59 PM) oh I dunno, maybe set all of tnt blue?
  2233. (12:47:06 PM) seems easier
  2234. (12:47:33 PM) Its easy to kill them then let them live
  2235. (12:47:56 PM) okay
  2236. (12:48:21 PM) but thats my opinion
  2237. (12:48:21 PM) this is going to be the dumbest resets in the history of dumb resets though, but you're not leaving me any choice
  2238. (12:48:59 PM) look
  2239. (12:49:06 PM) this is not first issue with tnt
  2240. (12:49:13 PM) can't have this kind of old school northern coalition levels of blue shooting, and trying to dictate who someone can recruit because you don't like them isn't going to fly either
  2241. (12:49:35 PM) of course it isn't
  2242. (12:49:42 PM) we've been allies for years, issues happen
  2243. (12:50:25 PM) itai has been nothing but trouble for every alliance they've ever been in, I don't imagine they'll last long in tnt
  2244. (12:50:49 PM) but until such a time as they're removed, I have the same obligation to defend them and enforce coalition policy as any other alliance or corp
  2245. (12:50:57 PM) this is their 4 alliance in Imperium
  2246. (12:51:00 PM) they joining
  2247. (12:51:40 PM) Its not problem for me to put them blue
  2248. (12:51:43 PM) just to be blue
  2249. (12:51:52 PM) problem is they will try to poach people
  2250. (12:52:04 PM) and link their propaganda like always
  2251. (12:52:12 PM) there's a poaching policy as well, if they violate it they're deep shit
  2252. (12:52:28 PM) they already did that when they were in CO2
  2253. (12:52:38 PM) few of many reasons we kick them out
  2254. (12:53:07 PM) yeah, it's part of why I warned you guys not to take them
  2255. (12:53:33 PM) after tnt, I think they're literally out of alliances in the coalition to join though
  2256. (12:53:40 PM) we sure as hell aren't taking them
  2257. (12:56:22 PM) anyway it's the same thing I told da winci yesterday, two choices, either you guys follow the coalition rules, or you don't. that's up to you
  2258. (2:15:28 PM)
  2259. (2:15:53 PM) <- we put them on BL
  2260. (2:16:15 PM) but from first picture
  2261. (2:16:49 PM) Draghkar was talking with them
  2262. (2:16:59 PM) did you know about this?
  2263. (3:38:12 PM) blacklist entries are cleared via goonswarm, there's no unilateral ability to put people on the blacklist
  2264. (3:41:10 PM) so yes, I was aware there was a pending request, after reviewing it, it was determined that yeah they're shitheads, but we don't blacklist people for that
  2265. (3:42:34 PM) Ok full TNT is +10
  2266. (3:42:51 PM) I see that if anyone is braking rules against CO2
  2267. (3:43:12 PM) CD will fix that
  2268. (3:43:18 PM) so CO2 will be always wrong
  2269. (3:43:52 PM) not the first time CO2 having problems with CD
  2270. (3:44:17 PM) sure, that's the way of it. but CD has helped you guys out a lot over the years too
  2271. (3:44:39 PM) that doesn't mean we're always going to land on your side blindly though
  2272. (3:44:43 PM) I agree
  2273. (3:44:53 PM) but also how many times they helped us
  2274. (3:45:01 PM) the same amount of time they fcked us
  2275. (3:45:09 PM) that story is repeating always
  2276. (3:45:13 PM) so I`m ok with that
  2277. (3:45:51 PM) and thats why I have da winci to deal with that
  2278. (3:45:59 PM) I'm just glad we reached a resolution here
  2279. (3:46:02 PM) I`m working only by overview
  2280. (3:46:15 PM) no worries
  2281. (3:46:35 PM) now I'll start taking bets on how long they last in tnt before they fuck that up too somehow
  2284. I wonder what could have possibly cause them to change their minds about wanting to be in the coalition a little bit longer? Was it the money? The security? Something else? January 16th, 2016.
  2286. (6:31:22 PM) Hi, are you available for a chat?
  2287. (6:32:42 PM) Sure, what can I help you with?
  2288. (6:33:24 PM) I wanted to take the time to introduce myself. I'm the new diplomat assigned to your alliance from GSF.
  2289. (6:33:56 PM) Nice to meet you
  2290. (6:35:33 PM) I'm looking forward to working with you guys.
  2291. (6:35:47 PM) Is there anything that you would like to ask me?
  2292. (6:37:15 PM) Not that I can think of. I do have something you could do for me though
  2293. (6:37:45 PM) Sure, what is it?
  2294. (6:39:34 PM) I approached ektony a while ago making it known to him, and by extension CD, that I would be running for CSM XI. He assured me that someone would talk to me closer to the candidacy period. Well, candidacy period is here
  2295. (6:41:06 PM) OK, I'll look into that and let you know what I find out. When did you talk to him?
  2296. (6:43:19 PM) Oh, 6 months or so. CO2 has been working on a CSM candidacy since March 2015, so it would be nice to have a discussion about that now. The reply so far has always been "we will talk about it when its closer"
  2297. (6:44:40 PM) understood. I'll ping the powers that be over here and get the conversation started
  2298. (6:44:49 PM) Thank you
  2300. “No one can fix what your old diplos fucked up” - Gigx, January 16th 2016.
  2301. (7:36:01 PM) Hello, I'm one of the two GSF Diplomats assigned to your alliance. I wanted to take the time to introduce myself and have a brief chat when you have the time.
  2302. (7:39:18 PM) I dont have time for your introduction so lets go on brief chat
  2303. (7:42:22 PM) The purpose of this contact is to simply indroduce myself as a point of contact for any Diplomatic issues you might have with the Alliance. If you are too busy to have a conversation right now, that's fine. Feel free to PM me when you have more time.
  2304. (7:43:11 PM) You should contact Da Winci or The Judge
  2305. (7:43:16 PM) and introduce yourself to them
  2306. (7:43:44 PM) because I realy dont trust anymore in GSF Diplomats
  2307. (7:45:12 PM) For me they are just bunch of dickheads
  2308. (7:45:15 PM) That is something I would like to fix if I can. I am not here to deceive or try to trick you. I'm here to help our alliances communicate more effectively. But I'll work through your assigned diplomats and let time and my actions prove themselves to you.
  2309. (7:45:21 PM) so its better to go and talk with da winci
  2310. (7:45:37 PM) noone can fix what old diplos fcked up
  2311. (7:45:49 PM) including main diplos
  2312. (7:46:03 PM) Ok talk with my diplos
  2313. (7:46:06 PM) Fly Safe
  2314. (7:46:21 PM) ok thank for your time tonight.
  2316. No, it can’t be, there’s no way CO2 would stick with us just because of the CSM vote that was coming up. No one could care that much about it. January 27th, 2016.
  2318. (7:57:58 PM) hey judge, did you get what you needed?
  2319. (8:03:44 PM) The Judge: Yeah, all sorted
  2320. (8:07:37 PM) The Judge: On another note, anything new on the CSM front?
  2321. (8:08:12 PM) The Judge: I can't seem to get an accurate picture of who is running this year from the coalition
  2322. (8:08:21 PM) Not yet. The information on candidates is still being gathered
  2323. (8:08:46 PM) The Judge: Let me know if you hear anything
  2324. (8:08:52 PM) I don't think anyone knows who is running. Have you submitted your app to CCP?
  2325. (8:09:14 PM) The Judge: Was submitted the first day it opened
  2326. (8:09:30 PM) ok great. I'll add that information to the post
  2327. (8:09:35 PM) The Judge: Waited up all night for the site to go live heh
  2329. No surely that can’t be it, no one would sacrifice their time being in a coalition they hate for something so crass as votes on a space council. Februrary 12th, 2016.
  2331. (00:43:04) Sebastien Saintfrusquin: Oh by the way, I'm supposed to tell you to vote The Judge for CSM in thanks for our continued support to the Imperium Cause
  2332. (00:43:12) Sebastien Saintfrusquin: the shit they make me do sometimes...
  2333. (00:43:28) Sebastien Saintfrusquin: done with the patriotic shit for now at least
  2334. (00:45:50) the_mittani: if he wants on the roster that's nbd, just let sion_kumitomo or mirana know
  2335. (00:46:08) Sebastien Saintfrusquin: will do
  2337. That would just be preposterous. Februrary 24th, 2016.
  2339. (2:04:37 PM) Dear Candidate,
  2341. It is our pleasure to let you know that your application to run for CSM XI has been processed and accepted. We are available at this address if any problems or questions arise.
  2343. We wish you the best of luck with your campaign and look forward to working with those who get elected.
  2345. On behalf of CCP,
  2346. CCP Guard and CCP Logibro
  2347. (2:11:41 PM) cool, congrats man
  2348. (2:11:52 PM)
  2349. (2:12:03 PM) now onto the "fun" part
  2350. (2:12:21 PM) I told Mirana I would poke when I got a confirmation from CCP
  2351. (2:13:03 PM) I thought I was stressed before
  2352. (2:13:27 PM) Yeah, I'll hit up da winci next time I see him and double check that co2 formally wants you on the coalition ballot and we'll go from there.
  2353. (2:13:49 PM) I mean I'm sure that he does but ~the process~
  2354. (2:14:03 PM) We've had some awkward mixups in the past
  2355. (2:14:46 PM) He's around, I poked him on skype
  2356. (2:15:20 PM) I'm just checking in on my lunch break before I head back to work. I'll need to grab him tomorrow or something.
  2357. (2:17:05 PM) No problem
  2359. And our last little blurb before their betrayal, March 24th, 2016.
  2360. dawincico2 [3:58 PM]
  2361. just ended the meeting with Carneros and Thoric. From the part of CO2 I guess the official question is why should we bleed in defence of Goonswarm? The support we're getting (and had in the past) is close to non-exsistent. In the light of threats made towards CO2 by CD, the disregard of coalition rules when it suited CD and the general disrespect towards the alliance...
  2362. Carneros would prolly word it less blunt, but hey, we're CO2 and not supposed to be subtle.
  2364. The day after CSM voting closed, CO2 betrayed the coalition after our defense of their space in M-O. The betrayal, the supercapital trap, and that story is covered elsewhere, so I won’t bother to repeat it here. I’ll just add that before they left, Gigx and Seb personally accessed our supercapital build list and passed that information onto our foes. Within six hours, they were hitting formerly allied sov, and within a day, formerly allied CSAA’s. They hit up members of the coalition and tried to convince them to join them in their exodus while simultaneously hitting their assets. This was accompanied by rhetoric of how they were the only pvp alliance in the Imperium, and piled on top of years of disdain for allies.
  2366. No one in Goonswarm leadership was particularly surprised that CO2 opted to leave the coalition. That has, as you can see, has been building for years. What was surprising is that instead of taking a sensible approach along the lines of “you know what, coalition life isn’t for us, we’re going to leave now, best wishes and see you in space,” they opted to go the pure traitor route. That they made sure to milk as much value out of the coalition, asking us to defend their lowsec r64’s for months, even something as petty as CSM votes, all the while planning what would have been a crippling superercapital loss to the Imperium. It is beyond reprehensible.
  2368. From an intellectual perspective, it is curious to chart the decline of CO2 from a driven and friendly alliance of 300 people to a greedy and ego bloated alliance of 3000. As they freely admitted, we helped build them from the ground up, giving them assets and advice on how to grow and to manage their new alliance. But then greed and self interest took over, and our gratitude for taking a chance on them, giving them a home, giving them resources, helping them build back in 2012 was repaid with treachery. I can’t help but wonder, what might the Gigx of 2012 say to the Gigx of 2016? Would he still speak of fun and friendship? Or might he be swayed at the promise of thirty pieces of silver?
  2370. There’s of course a lot here to unpack, but the tl;dr version of what I think happened to them is this: they wanted good fights, fun, and space pals after dropping to 300 people and being alone. We took them in, and they saw the wealth around them, and decided they wanted a part of that. They then were given coalition assets, but remained poor because their head finance guy, Mmarlon, was systematically robbing them and keeping them destitute. So they got resentful, and thought that the solution was to get more stuff, but every time they got more stuff, Mmarlon would just steal more. So it ingrained both money and resentment in the psyche of the alliance.
  2372. But this is how we treat allies. Even when they place their own self interest above the good of the coalition, we are patient. Even when they pull out of coalition wars for their own moons, we defend their space. Even when they trash talk other members of the coalition in hopes of getting more resources, we are fair.
  2374. As mentioned, Goonswarm leadership knew about all of these issues long before the M-O betrayal. We showed up to defend CO2 time and time again these past few months despite these background issues because that’s who we are, we honor our word--we honor our commitments--even when it is difficult to do so. We have bled and will continue to bleed for our allies, minor and major problems aside, because they would do the same for us.
  2376. This is something Gigx, Da Winci, and TheJudge increasingly failed to understand. The Imperium isn’t held together by moons, by isk or by space. It’s held together with intangible bonds forged in blood and sweat, over beers in bars, and on the dance floor in clubs. A CO2 increasingly consumed with greed lost sight of that.
  2378. This also makes the magnitude of their betrayal far worse. As should be obvious from the above log dump, CO2 had plenty of chances to exit the coalition with their honor and their reputation intact. At any point in time, they could have said “you know what, this coalition thing isn’t for us, we’re going to go our own way” and we’d have collectively wished them well. But the promise of a few more coins, a few more votes, was worth more to them than their word or their reputation.
  2380. They are traitors and they will forever be traitors--that stain can never be removed. And the wages of treachery are death.
  2382. Best possible friends.
  2384. Worst possible enemies.
  2386. [SLYCE is recruiting]
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