Reddit Post

There are non-Quincy techniques where one concentrates spiritual energy into a specific point or area and then does something with it.  One is Cero.  Kidou is another.  For Kidou, a Shinigami focuses their spiritual energy into his/her hand and uses it to cast a spell.  We also have Kidou spells where spiritual power is fired from the hand, like Shakkahou or [Byakurai](https://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Chapter-165?id=280326#11).  Against Aaroniro, Rukia used Soukatsui and Souren Soukatsui, both of which also concentrate spiritual energy into the hand(s) and then fire it out.  [In case you don't believe me about a Shinigami focusing spiritual energy into their hands for Kidou](https://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Chapter-080?id=279938#14); look at the one before it too, for good measure.  [And Urahara has shown he can fire something similar to a Getsuga Tenshou too](https://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Chapter-097?id=280026#15).  Really does look like it, doesn't it?  And he might have concentrated spiritual energy his sword for it too.  And he also did it against Yammy [here](https://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Chapter-194?id=280421#13).  We also have [the](https://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Chapter-158?id=280300#17) Kidou [blast](https://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Chapter-158?id=280300#18) Yoruichi [fires](https://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Chapter-158?id=280300#19) from her hand when using Shunkou.  Edourad can do something like [this](https://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Chapter-203?id=280449#10) as well.  Ikkaku notes that he charges up his reiatsu on his hand.

If concentrating spiritual energy into a specific point and then firing it or otherwise doing something with it was something Shinigami couldn't do, why didn't Byakuya say something about that when Ichigo explained to him what Getsuga Tenshou is?  [Even though he was so quick to say about Tensa Zangetsu back then that there's no way a Bankai could be so small](https://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Chapter-162?id=280314#17)?

And I hope you haven't forgotten that each of the Stern Ritters was said to be at least Captain-level.  Some of them stronger than that.  And that Yhwach also used the Ashwahlen to take power from some of the Stern Ritter, who'd been deemed "fodder" to boost the powers of his chosen elites.  Plus, of course, Yhwach himself had more power than all of them, which increased even more after he absorbed the Soul King.  Hikone in CFYOW is also a hybrid similar to Ichigo.  But the only three people we've seen use Getsuga Tenshou are Ichigo, Isshin and Ginjou (and Ginjou can use it only because he took some of Ichigo's Shinigami powers).  If it were a Quincy technique that only someone with a high amount of internal reiryoku can use, we would've at least seen Yhwach, the Stern Ritters, or Hikone use it.

As far as inheriting techniques goes, we already have Shunkou which is passed down among the heads of the Shihouin family.  Now granted Soi Fon also learned it, but she belongs to a family that's subservient to the Shihouin family and is linked to it.  It's just that Shunkou is a technique that combines Kidou and Hakuda whereas Getsuga Tenshou is a Zanjutsu technique.  And even within the Shiba family, the only Zanpakutou we've seen that have it are Zangetsu and Engetsu, the "getsu" Zanpakutou of the Shiba family.

In the final arc, what Ichigo said about the Kenpachi fight was that the Old Man ["lent him power in order to let the powerless him win"](https://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Chapter-542?id=281453) (notice that the flashback image where the Quincy 'power' is mentioned is that of the same panel where the Old Man puts his hand on on the sword handle.  And on the next thing that happens is Ichigo getting a power boost.  It can't get any clearer than that.  It was literal power that the Old Man gave him there, not some technique).  The reason I said before that you can't lend a technique was that it implies borrowing a technique, using it once, and then giving it back which doesn't make any sense because you don't just lose a technique after you've learned it.  This does also apply to Blut and Shadow because the Old Man used them himself to help Ichigo rather than giving or lending them to him.  And he was born with Shinigami, Hollow and Quincy reiryoku.  He couldn't use Quincy abilities himself yet, but the Old Man was already there which means his Quincy powers also weren't exactly completely dormant.  Even after the memory within his reiatsu awakened, he didn't get a rise in power.  No one even said anything about that.  Yhwach did note how powerful he'd gotten after he got his true Zanpakutou, since the Old Man was no longer suppressing most of his or his Zanpakutou's (maybe just the Zanpakutou's) power.  Grimmjow in CFYOW also noted that Hikone's reiatsu is like Ichigo's.  So the Old Man could still have lent Ichigo his power in that scene.  He was lent power from both spirits.

In the fight against Kenpachi, right before the final clash, [Ichigo gave the Old Man his power and then asked him lend him his.  The Old Man responded by putting his hand on the sword's hilt](https://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Chapter-113?id=280097#9) (notice their conversation here too; the Old Man agreed to lend him power) and then [Kenpachi noticed a rise in Ichigo's reiatsu](https://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Chapter-113?id=280097#10).  That's evidence of the Old Man's involvement in the power boost Ichigo got, while [the Hollow mask that appeared in his reiatsu aura](https://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Chapter-113?id=280097#12) is evidence of the Hollow's involvement.  It could be that the Hollow added in his power at that moment; or maybe the mask appeared not only because of the Hollow's involvement but also because of Ichigo's resolve.  Kenpachi's resolve to kill made that skull appear in his, too (my guess).

Also note that Shikai Ichigo was the strongest at that time than he was in the entire Soul Society Arc.  Because he borrowed power from both spirits.  [Ganjuu says here that Byakuya's reiatsu is at least as great as Kenpachi's (they're talking about Byakuya; he's right outside)](https://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Chapter-116?id=280111#17).  It means that Kenpachi and Byakuya have similar reiatsu levels but Kenpachi's is higher.  Which kind of makes sense since Kenpachi is all about brute strength and raw power whereas Byakuya focuses on speed.  And Ichigo's Bankai also focused on speed back then and likely still does.  Byakuya also focuses more on speed so it makes sense for his power to not be higher than Kenpachi's who focuses mainly on raw power.  Then, in that case, Ichigo would've needed to have more power than Kenpachi at the time of the final clash to be able to defeat him.  And to be able to break his sword and wound him as much as he did, it would've had to be decisively higher than his.  That's why it makes sense to think he received a power boost from both the Hollow and the Old Man, resulting in his reiatsu being at its highest at that point than it was in the entire Soul Society Arc.  Ichigo later couldn't even believe he ever managed to beat Kenpachi (when he'd been spending time at the Seireitei after Aizen had left to Hueco Mundo, he'd been spending time at the 11th Division's barracks from time to time and had sparred with Ikkaku, and he got to feel Kenpachi's reiatsu up close again more than once.  One time, he didn't have Zangetsu (the sword) with him, and Kenpachi wanted to fight him; he ran away because his reiatsu is scary).

That's why I think that the Quincy 'power' Ichigo got from the Old Man that time was literal power; even if Ichigo himself had no Quincy power or abilities, the Old Man does have his own reiryoku and he can give that to Ichigo.  Both spirits shared the same body, shown by Ichigo having only one sword as well, so Ichigo can give them both power through his sword and borrow power from both at the same time.  Because both spirits inhabited the same sword and shared the same body.  The Old Man can also handle Hollow reiryoku, which is proven by the fact that he held Ichigo's Hollow inside himself for the whole series up until the point when Ichigo learned the truth about his powers, and he can even handle fusing with the Hollow.  Normally Hollow reiatsu is poison to Quincy, but the Old Man doesn't have a problem with it and neither does Yhwach since he absorbed Ichigo's Hollow powers along with his Quincy powers and was completely fine.

And the damage to the surroundings [here](https://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Chapter-113?id=280097#14) is most likely from the overall clash between them, since both their powers were raised really high and slashed at each other at full power while they were like that.  That's not because of Getsuga Tenshou.  We looked that them hitting at each other from the side and the reiatsu waves went both ways.  If it were a Getsuga Tenshou, in that situation, it would've gone one way wouldn't it?

You remember what the "resolve/determination" Urahara taught Ichigo is, right ([here](https://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Chapter-097?id=280026#12) and [here](https://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Chapter-097?id=280026#13))?  I believe he used that against Kenpachi in their final clash and that along with the fact that he borrowed power from both spirits was the reason it was such a powerful attack.  It was a resolved slash attack.  I know the manga is canon and the anime isn't, but there are times when the anime makes things clearer.  Like how whenever Ichigo used "resolve", his eyes glowed the same color as his reiatsu in the anime--which also happened in that scene in the anime.  That scene was adapted from the manga and wasn't filler, so it should be trustworthy.

According to Byakuya, [this](https://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Chapter-163?id=280318#18) is Tensa Zangetsu's [ability](https://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Chapter-163?id=280318#19) (plus an enhanced Getsuga Tenshou, which is seen when the Hollow takes over in that fight), so the reason it's as big as the larger Shikai sword now is probably because of how much power is being focused into it.  And he didn't even use Shunpo against Yhwach when he fought him with his true Bankai, so we wouldn't have noticed his speed anyway.  Not to mention that the basic stance he uses to perform Bankai with is still the same (for most of the time in the Arrancar Arc, he'd shortened it to just [this](https://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Chapter-192?id=280416#19)), but on Soukyoku Hill it was like shown in [here](https://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Chapter-162?id=280314#3), [here](https://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Chapter-162?id=280314#6), [here](https://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Chapter-162?id=280314#8), [here](https://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Chapter-162?id=280314#9) and [here](https://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Chapter-162?id=280314#10
) (release motion is continued over the pages I linked)), except now he just has two swords to hold out in front of him and doesn't have his left hand free to put on his right arm.  If even the name and the release stance/motion are the same, why should the ability be different?

Also look at these pages: [this], (https://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Chapter-165?id=280326#17)
[this](https://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Chapter-165?id=280326#18), [this](https://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Chapter-165?id=280326#19), [this](https://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Chapter-189?id=280406#11), [this](https://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Chapter-190?id=280409#11), [this](https://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Chapter-190?id=280409#12), [this](https://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Chapter-190?id=280409#13), [this](https://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Chapter-193?id=280418#16), [this](https://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Chapter-193?id=280418#15) (Look at the next four pages after that too), [this](https://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Chapter-216?id=280500#8), and [this](https://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Chapter-216?id=280500#12).  I already showed you what the official translation says in the scene in the real world where the Hollow tells him on Chapter 218 Page 18; what he says in fan translations is as shown [here](https://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Chapter-218?id=280509#18), but I guess you already knew that.  And I've heard Viz's translations can be inaccurate, too, like with fan translations.  But according to what it says here, the Hollow was already holding dominance over Ichigo's soul, and had been since the Byakuya fight going by the one page linked earlier.

Zangetsu's and Tensa Zangetsu's respective abilities should still be the same as before since the Old Man said in the final arc that [what Ichigo was using until now was just a small fraction of his true power: the part the Old Man was unable to suppress](https://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Chapter-541?id=281451#17).  This is Mangastream's transation, but I think it's fine to trust it.  Anyway, the way it's worded here implies that just the power itself was suppressed while the abilities were untouched.  Also keep in mind what he's saying [here](https://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Chapter-541?id=281451#9).  His only deception was telling Ichigo his name.  If we believe this to be true, then the Shikai and Bankai Ichigo was using before weren't fake.  If they were, then that's another deception aside from him telling him his name.  I really don't think he would give Ichigo a fake Shikai and Bankai and then say that his only deception was telling him his name.  According to Mangastream's translation, what Ichigo says to Yhwach is that [while the Old Man and the Hollow were always at odds, now they've finally found balance and that he's forged them together into Zangetsu](https://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Chapter-676?id=281592#5).  And he also said that [he has to make the Hollow inside him come out by unleashing large amounts of Shinigami or Hollow power, which throws off the balance between his Hollow and Quincy sides](https://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Chapter-676?id=281592#6).  He couldn't do it himself yet during his fight against Yhwach, since he still hasn't mastered it yet, so he had to rely on Yhwach's power to help him out.  That's how he Hollowfies; it also sounds like something he himself has to do so I don't think it counts as his Zanpakutou's ability.  He has to wake the Hollow inside him up by doing this after all (he said to Orihime that [there was someone he had to jolt awake](https://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Chapter-675?id=281591#15) earlier); he says something to the same effect in the official translation too).  Now I guess him being able to Hollow abilities through his Zanpakutou after awakening his inner Hollow could be called his Zanpakutou's ability, but the correct way to Hollowfy itself wasn't actually hidden away since Ichigo could've used it if he'd already known the truth about his inner Hollow.  That's not necessarily a deception from the Old Man or even him withholding an ability, it's just that Ichigo didn't think to find out about it.

And if you want to say that the "Piercing through Heaven" part in "Moon's Fang Piercing through  Heaven" is talking about piercing through the Royal Realm, what do you have to say about it also being in the name of the technique Ichibe used on Yhwach [here](https://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Chapter-605?id=281525#11)?  The name "Getsuga Tenshou" actually helps me out if you notice.  It's the "moon's fang", and Zangetsu is the "moon".  Kubo himself has used this symbolism in the manga before, like how the chapter where Ichigo's Bankai is revealed in the Soul Society Arc is called "The Black Moon Rising".  It's also the name of the Volume it's in.

Also keep in mind what Bankai actually is for a Zanpakutou: the release of its true form and power.  It would've been one thing if the Hollow hadn't used Getsuga Tenshou at all, but the fact that he used it and that it was even in *Bankai* might actually mean that Getsuga Tenshou really is either his ability or a technique within Isshin's blood.  Because Bankai is the ultimate technique of the Zanpakutou and is also where the true power and form of a Zanpakutou is released.

Also, the method for getting back powers lost due to the Quincy: Letzt Stil isn't the same as that for the Final Getsuga Tenshou.  For the former, [these](https://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Chapter-226?id=280542#15) two [pages](https://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Chapter-226?id=280542#16) have Ryuuken's explanation.  You have to be hit by an arrow 99 mm from the heart after removing the utmost limits between mind and body; Uryuu was also noted to be reaching his limits by the point he was shot at that area by Ryuuken.  Also, Ichigo got his powers back after losing them the same way one recieves them when becoming a Substitute Shinigami and it's also how he first became one at the beginning of the series.  Only difference being the sword that stabbed him was a different kind as it was filled with power from all Captains and Vice-Captains of the Gotei 13 (plus Urahara, Isshin and Yoruichi IIRC).  Ichigo's powers were still there deep within his soul, they just had to be brought back out.  And that sword did the job.  So it's not exactly accurate to say that that's specifically how Shinigami powers lost due to the Final Getsuga Tenshou are regained.

[The Old Man referred to Ichigo's Hollow as Ichigo himself](https://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Chapter-110?id=280081#19) back in the Soul Society Arc.  And Ichigo still tends to talk about his Hollow like a separate entity; see how he talked to Yhwach about him (Renji's deal that you keep mentioning could be similar to this, in the way that they both tend to sometimes refer to their Zanpakutou Spirit as a separate entity).  That's the closest thing I can think of.  It just shouldn't be one of the ones Ouetsu said "Gimme a break" for in the Viz translation, at least.  And Ouetsu saying that about the "King of the Hill" on the next page might be misleading because [you have to make the Zanpakutou Spirit(s) submit to learn Bankai](https://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Chapter-127?id=280150#5) (Yachiru was the Bankai spirit, so it seems like she and Kenpachi were special.  Don't talk about an exception as if it were the norm (this was probably why he could learn Bankai just from Yachiru touching him)).  But recall that we also have [this](https://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Chapter-523?id=281413#6) page, and also [this](https://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Chapter-542?id=281453#7) page.  Look at what's said in these two pages.  A Shinigami imprints his/her own essence into his/her Asauchi to make it into his/her own Zanpakutou, and in fact, Ouetsu also said to Ichigo when he came and put his hands into the forge while Ouetsu was forging his Asauchi that [now would be a good time to put in a piece of his soul](https://kissmanga.com/Manga/Bleach/Chapter-542?id=281453#7).  Shinigami mold and guide their Asauchi to be their own Zanpakutou in this way: by putting a piece of their own essence, their own soul into it.  This means that the Zanpakutou actually is an extension of its Shinigami counterpart.

Ichigo would probably have had to have both spirits materialize and make them submit to him to relearn Bankai.  Except the release stance/motion for the Bankai is very similar to his old one and it could even have been the same as what he used in the Arrancar and Lost Shinigami Representative Arcs if he still had just one sword.  It could still be the same Bankai except for the size and appearance, the fact that it has more power focused into the sword than before and also that it's a fusion between both swords now.  Which is why I'm thinking that, just like how he didn't have to achieve Shikai again and just had to put in a bit of his soul during the forging process for the Zanpakutou to go into Shikai, it's possible that he already knows Bankai because he'd already achieved it before.  And in that case he'd just have needed to train with his true Shikai and Bankai rather than having to acheive either of them all over again and then train with them.  But he'd have had to talk to both Zangetsus either way I think.