wutface

[2016-02-11 20:13:11] <STLICTX> Panarchy is perhaps better than anarchy, and does allow for anarchists to have their own system while allowing everyone else the same
[2016-02-11 20:13:13] -->| Nepene (IceChat9@net-it0.l65.152.213.IP) has joined #politics
[2016-02-11 20:13:38] <Elara> Slick wut
[2016-02-11 20:13:48] <Elara> you're going to have to define what you mean by panarchy
[2016-02-11 20:14:10] <Elara> because I can translate the Greek, but that dun't give me much
[2016-02-11 20:19:22] <STLICTX> Panarchy is the political idea that everyone should basically be able to subscribe to whatever political system they wish in non-territorial way with complete independence given to each system in an overal polycentric system. So, say... someone subscribes to the green party they would be under its jurisdiction voluntarily while their neighbour might subscribe to an anarcho-syndicalist union. Disputes are handled by mutually agreed upon
[2016-02-11 20:19:23] <STLICTX> resolution procedures that would mirror relations between independent nations. One advantage of this is it creates a great disincentive to use weapons of mass destruction because instead of political polities being within strictly defined territories they would be spread all over the place so if you nuke an area you'll be nuking some of your own people
[2016-02-11 20:19:52] <Elara> o.O that's never going to work
[2016-02-11 20:20:49] <Elara> how the hell do you mutually agree resolution procedures? what happens when a party gets powerful enough to say "eh, fuck it, we're going to ignore anything the anarcho-syndicalists say, they're idiots"
[2016-02-11 20:25:52] <STLICTX> Why not? All it requires is robust dispute resolution procedures... and that would have to be managed by maintaining a balance of power, which would likely be the inevitable result of panarchism becoming culturally accepted-which includes a cultural value of mutual tolerance for different politics. The dispute resolution procedurs might be an issue, but could be handled by places for constant discussion being set. If people ignore each
[2016-02-11 20:25:53] <STLICTX> other that would be unfortnate and increase the potential for conflict-hence why things like a 'panarchist congress'should exist-but if people ignore each other completely and let each other alone the possibility of mutual projects is lost but they can still just leave each other alone and not interfere with each other
[2016-02-11 20:27:08] <Elara> it strikes me as at worst both impossible and damaging to attempt; at best, transitory, until someone gets the power to overthrow the system for one they like better
[2016-02-11 20:28:03] <STLICTX> Why would they do that when they can have the system they want and just leave people who want another system alone? Why would it be damaging to attempt when it could potentially give everyone what they want?
[2016-02-11 20:29:06] <Elara> because a lot of people want the power to enforce their standards on others
[2016-02-11 20:30:04] <Elara> I find the neo-reactionary theme of "Exit" more workable than this 'panarchy', because at least in Exit people physically move to join those who agree with them - there is some contiguity among those who are following the same rules
[2016-02-11 20:31:07] <STLICTX> In this culture, which accepts certain values, yes. In a culture that accepts panarchist values, and so confines the need for their stupid dominance/submisson to within their own party. If people literally can't just let each other alone then I will be tempted to change my politics to the voluntary human extinction movement
[2016-02-11 20:32:05] <Nepene> You could probably make it work.
[2016-02-11 20:32:12] <Elara> um, do you not get how basic the drive to dominance is in humans?
[2016-02-11 20:32:27] <Nepene> Have a central federal government which everyone votes on, and local places with a great deal of freedom to modify the rules.
[2016-02-11 20:32:43] <Elara> see that sounds more functional
[2016-02-11 20:33:20] <Elara> I'm not sure I'd necessarily support it, but I can at least imagine a society where it worked pretty stably
[2016-02-11 20:33:35] <Elara> (stablely? they both look wrong :S)
[2016-02-11 20:34:07] <Nepene> Stably
[2016-02-11 20:35:22] <STLICTX> I understand it's a strong trait for most humans, but as I said; it could be channeled within the parties they voluntary ascribe to. There would be flavours for dominance to fit all possible tastes within the varying parties. Considering that, why can't they be satisfied with that and leave each other alone?
[2016-02-11 20:35:46] <Nepene> Because many groups have morals that they believe others should hold.
[2016-02-11 20:35:52] <Elara> >desire for dominance >satisfied
[2016-02-11 20:35:53] <Elara> heh
[2016-02-11 20:36:10] <Nepene> What happens when one district has a lot of child pornographers and makes tons of it and spreads it around local regions?
[2016-02-11 20:36:36] <Elara> how many business moguls say "it's enough, I don't need to make another million"? how many politicans say "ok, I've had enough time in high office, I'm not going to try for the party leadership?"
[2016-02-11 20:36:46] <Elara> and even if most of them did, all it takes is one
[2016-02-11 20:37:17] <Nepene> What do you do if one region pollutes a major river, causing severe environmental damage to everyone downstream?
[2016-02-11 20:37:38] <Nepene> The answer- build up an army and invade them
[2016-02-11 20:38:38] <Nepene> Even if you could make it work, you probably shouldn't. Central governments have done a lot of good.
[2016-02-11 20:40:32] <STLICTX> In that case they'll probably be killed, honestly. The children cannot voluntarily consen to it and so it would go against the central value of a panarchistic society in the first place because a non-consenting party was forced into a political situation where certain actions were taken against them. The outrage would likely lead to death. For the river, that could be handled in court where the different jurisdictions of different parties
[2016-02-11 20:40:32] <STLICTX> are taken into account and likely the polluters would have to pay for the damage caused and if they didn't there likely would be war but that would be the last resort.
[2016-02-11 20:41:02] <STLICTX> They've also done a lot of bad, and from my perspective force everyone into a situation that for me at least is not really worth living in without the hope of something better.
[2016-02-11 20:41:52] <STLICTX> So... you're saying I should join the voluntary human extinction movement?  I'm unlikely to breed for varying reasons, but perhaps I should get a vascectomy just to be sure. Perhaps vascectomies should be free
[2016-02-11 20:42:02] <Nepene> So, if someone does something immoral then others can invade them.
[2016-02-11 20:42:46] <Elara> if you know for a fact that you don't want kids, go ahead and get a vasectomy. if you're not sure, wait until you are; it isn't as though contraceptives are that ineffective
[2016-02-11 20:43:42] <Nepene> If you have frequent one night stands while drunk or high a vasectomy may be more useful.
[2016-02-11 20:43:46] <STLICTX> if the essential value of leaving each other alone to let all fully consenting and voluntary parties do as they wish is violated, and there is no other recourse... then violence may be the only solution as a last recourse. That's the one rule that all parties must agree to
[2016-02-11 20:43:50] <Nepene> Is harder to use contraceptives while drunk or high
[2016-02-11 20:44:33] <Elara> thing is, how do you know if it's voluntary
[2016-02-11 20:45:18] <Nepene> This works as a good excuse to take over other places. You find a parent spanking their child, spread that around, and you have an excuse to conquer the region.
[2016-02-11 20:45:19] <Elara> so many deals in our current society are "voluntary" but not really
[2016-02-11 20:45:37] <STLICTX> I'm asexual, a borderline hikkikomori and have no social skills-basically feel somewhat alien. Like I said, I'm very unlikely to breed. If a world worth living in isn't possible though, perhaps I should be sure and advertise vascectomies for everyone.
[2016-02-11 20:45:40] <Elara> and you're taking away half the ways we can deal with that
[2016-02-11 20:45:53] <Nepene> The current world is pretty awesome.
[2016-02-11 20:46:21] <Nepene> Internet to have fun in, less war, less disease, better medical technology, ample supplies to survive.
[2016-02-11 20:47:00] <Elara> the current world has problems, but yeah, is better than basically all times in the past, and the general trajectory is upwards
[2016-02-11 20:47:26] <Elara> if we can avoid nasty fuckups, people in a hundred years will look back on our society and shake their heads, and that's how it should be
[2016-02-11 20:47:55] <Nepene> Or people in a hundred years will look back on this time as a golden age
[2016-02-11 20:47:58] <Nepene> One of the two
[2016-02-11 20:48:41] <Elara> I did say *if* :P
[2016-02-11 20:49:31] <Elara> though I guess there'll always be conservatives looking back to the golden age, so somebody'll be doing what you said regardless
[2016-02-11 20:49:40] <Nepene> "Such a fantastic era. So many scientific advancements, such amazing artwork being made, and we didn't have to bow and pray to Emperor Elara every half hour."
[2016-02-11 20:50:01] <Elara> oh ye gods nobody fucking dare make me an Emperor
[2016-02-11 20:50:09] <Elara> or indeed pray to me
[2016-02-11 20:50:18] <Elara> I'd be most upset
[2016-02-11 20:51:15] <STLICTX> The only real freedom being the freedom of a rat to hide in the cracks, laws that allow you to be locked up for the way you think or for thinking certain things, an increasing surveilance state in all countries, business regulations that favour established corporations and destroy the possibility of new competition and small guys, vastly increasing pollution with the environmental protections and agencies a joke, rising rates of depression,
[2016-02-11 20:51:16] <STLICTX> increasingly authoritarian schools, people seeming to have lost passion and hope, banks that can do literaly whatever they want and nothing gets done...
[2016-02-11 20:51:47] <STLICTX> There's good things about this age, but also a lot of bad things and a lot of continuing bad things from previous ages
[2016-02-11 20:51:56] <Nepene> There's pretty strong freedom of speech in most western nations.
[2016-02-11 20:52:00] <Nepene> Much better than the past
[2016-02-11 20:52:19] <Nepene> So long as you avoid being blantantly dumb with your words, and you're generally warned about that, you should be fine.
[2016-02-11 20:53:01] <Elara> more and more people, through the magic of crowdfunding, can live off their art, rather than having to work day to day
[2016-02-11 20:53:08] <Nepene> The survelliance state doesn't actually hurt people much or do much negative damage.
[2016-02-11 20:53:22] <Elara> do you think Wildbow would have been able to do what he's doing even ten years ago? and he's far from the only one
[2016-02-11 20:53:50] <Nepene> Nations have vastly enhanced regulations against businesses.
[2016-02-11 20:53:53] <Elara> surveillance state has a lot of potential to do harm; likely best solution is sousveillance, but we'll see how that goes
[2016-02-11 20:54:13] <Nepene> They are much more limited in what they can do now, in terms of environmental harm, and western nations have a lot less pollution than in the past
[2016-02-11 20:54:19] <STLICTX> Somewhat, yeah. Still not enough, but better than it was in many places and times. That's not real freedom though, it's tolerance; as soon as anything starts happening that actually challenges the system people get cracked down on hard.
[2016-02-11 20:55:19] <STLICTX> "There's good things about this age"; I'm not denying that, but it's still lacking the essential qualities that would make it truly worth living in.
[2016-02-11 20:55:35] <Nepene> Treatment of depression probably explains the rising numbers.
[2016-02-11 20:55:42] <Nepene> More people ask for treatment.
[2016-02-11 20:56:10] <Nepene> You can do lots of things that challenges the system, so long as you avoid endangering your fellow man.
[2016-02-11 20:56:18] <Elara> um, feel free not to answer this, but are you depressed Slick?
[2016-02-11 20:57:08] <Nepene> Governments basically don't care what you do, so long as you don't do anything that causes them to need to spend money on handling you. There are far too many people to monitor and not enough jails.
[2016-02-11 20:57:24] <STLICTX> if that were true about people asking for treatment, then suicide rates would be decreasing, not increasing
[2016-02-11 20:57:48] <STLICTX> Elara; off topic, but will answer in PM
[2016-02-11 20:58:34] <Nepene> Not necessarily
[2016-02-11 20:58:40] <Nepene> It's easy to disguise a suicide
[2016-02-11 20:58:45] <Nepene> As say, a road traffic accident
[2016-02-11 20:59:00] <Elara> suicide rates have declined over time
[2016-02-11 20:59:00] <Somecrazyguy> ^
[2016-02-11 20:59:04] <Somecrazyguy> what nepene said
[2016-02-11 20:59:09] <Nepene> Part of why pilots can't be suicidal
[2016-02-11 20:59:26] <Nepene> They have a tendency of trying to end it all by driving their planes into the ground
[2016-02-11 20:59:31] <Elara> UK suicide rates are lower by far now than they were 50 years ago, since we got rid of ovens that could actually gas you to death
[2016-02-11 21:01:37] <Nepene> If you personally are sad and depressed that sucks and we can't change that, but it may make you biased in assessing the world.
[2016-02-11 21:02:49] <Somecrazyguy> I think it might just be because no ovens and guns
[2016-02-11 21:02:55] <Somecrazyguy> which were the quick and easy ways
[2016-02-11 21:03:05] <Somecrazyguy> now you have to walk alllll the way to the drug store
[2016-02-11 21:03:10] <Somecrazyguy> and allllll the way back
[2016-02-11 21:03:15] <Nepene> And a lot of drug store suicides fail
[2016-02-11 21:03:17] <Somecrazyguy> nobody wants to die in the fucking street or a store
[2016-02-11 21:03:32] <Somecrazyguy> Or walk to a bridge
[2016-02-11 21:03:39] <Elara> tbh one of the easiest and most popular ways right now is walking in front of a train
[2016-02-11 21:03:41] <Somecrazyguy> into the river
[2016-02-11 21:03:48] <Somecrazyguy> I thought it was jumping in front of a train
[2016-02-11 21:03:52] <Somecrazyguy> and the same is true of japan
[2016-02-11 21:03:54] <Nepene> That does happen
[2016-02-11 21:03:58] <Somecrazyguy> that and hanging
[2016-02-11 21:04:10] <STLICTX> http://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/the-filter/11965029/Middle-aged-male-suicide-rate-rises-by-40-per-cent-since-2008.html http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/feb/19/number-of-suicides-uk-increases-2013-male-rate-highest-2001
[2016-02-11 21:04:13] <Nepene> It's very annoying for the passengers, who have to wait half an hour for the body to be cleaned off the tracks.
[2016-02-11 21:04:24] <Somecrazyguy> Awesome.
[2016-02-11 21:04:29] <Somecrazyguy> If I'm gonna go out
[2016-02-11 21:04:38] <Elara> an hour, usualy
[2016-02-11 21:04:40] <Somecrazyguy> I'm gonna go out inconveniencing as many people as possible
[2016-02-11 21:04:44] <Elara> gotta clean it up and get a new driver in
[2016-02-11 21:04:47] <Somecrazyguy> I can respect that
[2016-02-11 21:04:53] <Somecrazyguy> old driver reports to psych
[2016-02-11 21:04:57] <Somecrazyguy> and gets a vacation
[2016-02-11 21:05:02] <Somecrazyguy> everyone wins!
[2016-02-11 21:05:12] <Elara> last time I checked, something like 1/3 of train suicides were on one stretch of line in south London
[2016-02-11 21:05:20] <Nepene> There's been a recent increase in suicide rates.
[2016-02-11 21:05:27] <Nepene> Possibly due to the depression.
[2016-02-11 21:05:32] <Somecrazyguy> wait
[2016-02-11 21:05:33] <Somecrazyguy> wait
[2016-02-11 21:05:35] <Nepene> Unemployment causes a lot of issues
[2016-02-11 21:05:35] <Somecrazyguy> hold up
[2016-02-11 21:05:40] <Somecrazyguy> depression and suicide...
[2016-02-11 21:05:42] <Somecrazyguy> are LINKED?
[2016-02-11 21:06:00] <Nepene> :o
[2016-02-11 21:06:05] <Elara> I think that's behind the rise in middle-aged male suicide, yeah Nepene
[2016-02-11 21:06:24] <Somecrazyguy> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdhhQhqi_AE
[2016-02-11 21:06:32] <Elara> if you're 50, 55, and not in a high-demand role, goddamn right you're going to struggle to find another job
[2016-02-11 21:07:00] <Elara> and being unemployed is seriously fucking depressing
[2016-02-11 21:07:12] <Nepene> It has been frustrating to many that the social policies of many european governments has been to promote austerity and budget balancing rather than supporting the unemployed.
[2016-02-11 21:07:16] <STLICTX> Nepene; I'm not depressed right now. I know my mood cycles, right now I'm actually pretty happy and relaxed. I just have certain vales that mean I find the way the world is unacceptable and wish I had some tolerable option other than the freedom of a rat.
[2016-02-11 21:07:41] <Elara> also, hey, rats are cool
[2016-02-11 21:08:31] <Elara> hell, I'm still not 100% bounced back from spending 10 months unemployed, and that was 4-5 years ago now
[2016-02-11 21:08:47] <STLICTX> I also think in general people would be better if they were more free, since freedom is basicaly my highest value.
[2016-02-11 21:08:56] <Somecrazyguy> @El seriously?
[2016-02-11 21:09:02] <Somecrazyguy> That sounds like a rough 10 months
[2016-02-11 21:09:07] <Nepene> Sorry for that Elara, sounds pretty crappy.
[2016-02-11 21:09:12] <Somecrazyguy> ^
[2016-02-11 21:09:42] <Somecrazyguy> Like, i know we argue and shit but i don't want you to have a shitty life. Hope you're on track to 100% bouncing back.
[2016-02-11 21:09:54] <STLICTX> I'm unemployable, though looking into art and a few options that might hopefully pan out. Which reminds me I should be painting or writing, not IRCing but... *Shrugs*
[2016-02-11 21:10:05] <Somecrazyguy> unemployable how/why?
[2016-02-11 21:10:10] <Nepene> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/60/Maslow's_Hierarchy_of_Needs.svg/2000px-Maslow's_Hierarchy_of_Needs.svg.png people have higher needs than freedom
[2016-02-11 21:10:14] <Elara> I'm mostly there, thanks SCG
[2016-02-11 21:10:52] <Somecrazyguy> Glad to hear.
[2016-02-11 21:11:19] <Elara> I was stuck being overqualified for some jobs, so they wouldn't hire me for fear I'd move on to something else straight away, and underqualified for others - entry-level roles were literally demanding 3-5 years experience, and getting it
[2016-02-11 21:11:27] <STLICTX> I disagree with Maslow, and put my freedom over my life... and hope I don't have to show that becase my little attempt at hiding and being free while nibbling my way throgh the systems wires falls apart
[2016-02-11 21:11:38] <Elara> the few where I was just right, were getting 100+ CVs for every position
[2016-02-11 21:11:53] <Somecrazyguy> Software?
[2016-02-11 21:12:04] <Elara> yeah
[2016-02-11 21:12:07] <Somecrazyguy> Argh
[2016-02-11 21:12:31] <Elara> I ended up getting a job because some guys I was doing part-time work for remembered me when they had a full-time post opening up
[2016-02-11 21:12:42] <Somecrazyguy> Well, that's lucky.
[2016-02-11 21:12:44] <STLICTX> Somecrazyguy; Becase I don't want to hurt people like my innocent coworkers when I inevitably freak out, or wold be fired whe the people and lights scare me enogh that I go hide in a closet hitting myself... among other reasons, it's a long list that I don't want to get into
[2016-02-11 21:12:54] <Somecrazyguy> Dayum.
[2016-02-11 21:14:23] <Nepene> There are jobs better suited for introverts.
[2016-02-11 21:15:02] <Nepene> A lot of mathematical ones, geological ones that require you to isolate yourself in a region, similar biological ones, engineer ones.
[2016-02-11 21:15:14] <Nepene> Security guard at the graveyard shift
[2016-02-11 21:18:52] <STLICTX> is this some bizarre for of ad hominem where my political views are meaningless because I'm an unemployed screw up? I've looked into some of those, and am still looking some but there's other stuff and can we please not talk about me?
[2016-02-11 21:25:32] -->| YOU (Mishie) have joined #politics
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[2016-02-11 21:25:33] <Nepene> I likewise respect your views
[2016-02-11 21:26:02] <Nepene> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equality_of_outcome that sort of thing
[2016-02-11 21:27:01] <Elara> I don't want *equality* of outcomes, but less extreme inequality would be good, for a whole lot of reasons
[2016-02-11 21:27:28] <Nepene> If everyone has freedom of oppurtunity then people have the freedom to take everything around them to be theirs. I'd likely be on the sideline of society and be poor, unhappy, and technically free to do anything I wanted, but with no practical chance to actually improve my life.
[2016-02-11 21:28:04] <Elara> That's basically the argument that built us the welfare state Nepe
[2016-02-11 21:28:12] <Nepene> I know
[2016-02-11 21:28:28] <Elara> well, that + "loads of potential conscripts are too malnourished to go to war", but y'know, ups and downs
[2016-02-11 21:29:09] <Nepene> There are practical advantages to not leaving your people malnurished, uneducated, and disease ridden.
[2016-02-11 21:30:02] <STLICTX> I favor eliminating absentee ownership to prevent someone taking everything. Strong occupancy and use rights as Benjamin Tucker argued for, rather than strict property rights. We would be more free and have more meaningful choices under an occupancy and use system which would prevent or at least limit the exploitation of capitalists
[2016-02-11 21:30:30] <STLICTX> Plus people in a welfare state are less likely to riot
[2016-02-11 21:31:17] <Nepene> So, as long as they leave a loyal servant in the house, they're good?
[2016-02-11 21:31:46] <Elara> sounds like the early feudal system
[2016-02-11 21:32:49] <Nepene> The rich have expensive advisors and more free time and a less stressful life.
[2016-02-11 21:32:55] <Nepene> They can afford to figure out loopholes.
[2016-02-11 21:33:59] <Nepene> They can also subtly bias enforcement and writing of laws to favor them.
[2016-02-11 21:34:22] <Nepene> If you leave them a vast degree of freedom they can easily keep their power.
[2016-02-11 21:36:25] <Nepene> the poor are much easier to screw over, since they can't afford to find loopholes.
[2016-02-11 21:40:19] <STLICTX> That loyal servant will have all rights to the house while they're occupying it, so at least there would be a good motive to treat them well. I don't see this occuring much especially since there wouldn't be the extreme rich we see today when the cycle of capital accumulation is either cut off at the root or stunted. If this system was implemented, they wouldn't really have their wealth anymore; all the factories, etc will belong to the
[2016-02-11 21:40:20] <STLICTX> workers working in them, since its a new system there would be no motive to accept the old paper money as at all valuable, etc. They'd be left with their personal possessions they can directly se within their homes; there would still be inequality if this sort of clean slate and implementin of a new system was done but it would be vastly lessened and counterbalanced by the fact the formerly destitute have many new opportunities and the
[2016-02-11 21:40:21] <STLICTX> actual industrial production is now distributed among many
[2016-02-11 21:41:26] <STLICTX> Implement labor-based currency along with it and things become even better in that regard
[2016-02-11 21:41:42] <Mishie> riiiight
[2016-02-11 21:42:01] <Mishie> so we're bringing back serfdom then?
[2016-02-11 21:42:13] <STLICTX> No
[2016-02-11 21:42:52] <Mishie> also, this system seems to have the minor flaw of y'know, not taking into account people
[2016-02-11 21:42:53] <Mishie> at all
[2016-02-11 21:42:55] <Nepene> So ownership is 10/10s of the law.
[2016-02-11 21:43:10] <Nepene> I can see how that would curtail some of the power of the rich
[2016-02-11 21:43:17] <Mishie> it really wouldn't
[2016-02-11 21:43:19] <Mishie> at all
[2016-02-11 21:44:57] <Elara> um, hang on a second Slick. I thought you were going for panarchy where people choose what system they're under. how does that match up with breaking the cycle of capital accumulation?
[2016-02-11 21:45:15] <Elara> presumably a bunch of people will opt to keep accumulating capital etc
[2016-02-11 21:45:37] <Nepene> Imagine that there's a very people oriented central government which enforces the laws- builds a military to deter outsiders, polices disputes, runs corts. Some central mathematicians calculate the value of each bit of equipment. If you work, you earn whatever fraction of what you do.
[2016-02-11 21:47:31] <Nepene> Probably with some inheritance system like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partible_inheritance
[2016-02-11 21:49:10] <Mishie> so basically
[2016-02-11 21:49:16] <Mishie> they can choose whatever system they want
[2016-02-11 21:49:23] <Mishie> as long as it's the system that you want
[2016-02-11 21:49:38] <Nepene> Whatever system, within pre-arranged limits.
[2016-02-11 21:49:41] <Mishie> Nepene: and in a few years we're back to where we're started
[2016-02-11 21:49:42] <Mishie> :)
[2016-02-11 21:50:25] <Nepene> Probably
[2016-02-11 21:50:45] <Mishie> no
[2016-02-11 21:50:47] <Mishie> not probably
[2016-02-11 21:50:53] <Nepene> I'd imagine it'd work similarly to union dominated countries.
[2016-02-11 21:50:58] <Mishie> It literally just leads back right to where we are right now
[2016-02-11 21:51:12] <Nepene> With large groups of people collectively bargaining, and pressuring people with soft pressure to join them
[2016-02-11 21:51:17] <STLICTX> I went on a different tangent towards mutualism-type systems. Even underpanarchy there are questions of the underying system for determining rightful possession in order to avoid disputes that lead to war due to people arguing "this is mine, not yours", etc. WITHIN the parties inhabitants different systems might apply due to peoples choices(and so possibly some capital accmlation even in the occupancy-and-use case) and the two main options
[2016-02-11 21:51:17] <STLICTX> for agreeing as to the overal system for determining this is either traditional property titles or occupancy and use. Occupancy and use makes more sense since it refers to a natural fact that something is being used or occupied rather than arbitrary title.
[2016-02-11 21:52:10] <STLICTX> Even if we agree to leave each other alone to do what we want with consenting parties, we do need to establish how to do that without stepping on each others toes
[2016-02-11 21:52:41] <Nepene> I imagine, at the very least, there would be some introvert heavy areas that had more social support for struggling artists.
[2016-02-11 21:53:02] <Nepene> Of course, as always, the big issue with such socialistic systems is, what do you do when you run out of money?
[2016-02-11 21:53:10] <Mishie> yeah uh
[2016-02-11 21:53:15] <Mishie> none of this looks sustainable at all
[2016-02-11 21:53:21] <Mishie> or realistic
[2016-02-11 21:53:35] <Nepene> A political system should ideally be based around humans
[2016-02-11 21:53:46] <Nepene> Just as, say, clothes are superior if they fit the human form.
[2016-02-11 21:54:08] <Nepene> Rather than a nine tentacled monstrosity from R'lyeh
[2016-02-11 21:56:22] <STLICTX> Every party will have its own financial policy. Labour based currency would be ideal since it exactly matches the creation of a value with the creation of currency. Money isn't the central issue; the actual production of use-value and increased production-value is. Money is simply one way of handling the calculations of use and production values
[2016-02-11 21:57:01] <Nepene> This is why most utopian government worldbuilding things eventially devolve into a dictatorship
[2016-02-11 21:57:28] <Nepene> People realize that no one actually wants to live in a world like theirs, and so, they need to be gently nudged into a better life of happiness and joy and love.
[2016-02-11 21:57:54] <Nepene> With storm troopers and guns and secret police.
[2016-02-11 21:58:53] <Nepene> See, say, communism.
[2016-02-11 22:00:29] <Hex> A utopia wouldn't have the internet because that would allow for dissenting viewpoints.
[2016-02-11 22:00:53] <Nepene> In the utopia no one would have dissenting viewpoints, all would agree on the glory of the utopia!
[2016-02-11 22:00:55] <Nepene> Or else
[2016-02-11 22:01:39] <Hex> In the end we will make thoughtcrime impossible, for there will be no words to express it.
[2016-02-11 22:02:00] <Nepene> Presumably with minor but vigerous debate within prearranged boundaries. Nothing negative to the system, but, people are free to argue.
[2016-02-11 22:02:45] <Hex> Obviously only over things that don't matter.
[2016-02-11 22:03:08] <Nepene> "Should our glorious ruler have nine wives or ten?"
[2016-02-11 22:03:18] <STLICTX> if Makhno had won and Lenin, Trotsky and Stlin had died as early as they deserved the history of communism would be very different... also, how do you go from "everyone has their own system within the loose boundary of an agreement to se occpancy and use standards when dealing with different polities and everthing must be consensal" to total dictatorship and secret police?
[2016-02-11 22:03:52] <Hex> Because a dictatorship is, ironically, the perfect form of government strictly under the rules of a utopia.
[2016-02-11 22:04:11] <Hex> Under a dictatorship everyone is equal. Everyone is the same. Everyone has the same opportunities.
[2016-02-11 22:04:28] <Nepene> Because people don't actually want everyone to have their own system, use occupancy , and use standards and everything being consensual.
[2016-02-11 22:04:43] <Nepene> But you know that they should want it, and would want it, if only they could first be convinced.
[2016-02-11 22:05:21] <Nepene> http://files.harrispublications.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/8/2010/03/swat-benelli-integrated-intimidation.jpg
[2016-02-11 22:05:35] <Nepene> Convincing people is easier with dictatorships and secret police.
[2016-02-11 22:07:05] <Somecrazyguy> you know
[2016-02-11 22:07:11] <Nepene> Also, people who support dictatorships conquer people who don't support dictatorships.
[2016-02-11 22:07:15] <Somecrazyguy> a lot of things are easier with dictatorships and secret police
[2016-02-11 22:07:57] <STLICTX> but I don't want to force that unto anyone. I do wish people would see the value of it, but forcing it nto people is exactly against everything I value. I just want me and everyone else who would want this sort of freedom to be able to have it, at least try it and then maybe when people see how great it is they'll join in but...as I said, forcing people into anything is against everything I am and everything I value
[2016-02-11 22:09:20] <Nepene> Give it time. Eventually frustration at why people are dumb and just can't see why your plan is so great tends to convert people. You're already pushing a government type that has little respect for the will of the people. This is the next step.
[2016-02-11 22:10:12] |<-- Hex has left irc.parahumans.net (Ping timeout: 181 seconds)
[2016-02-11 22:11:42] -->| Hex (IceChat9@net-pafjej.ca.comcast.net) has joined #politics
[2016-02-11 22:13:31] <STLICTX> I'm already incredibly frustrated about it, actually. Still doesn't give me any incentive to give up my values.
[2016-02-11 22:13:37] <Nepene> You mentioned Makhno- that's the normal way it goes.
[2016-02-11 22:13:48] <Nepene> Someone extremely charismatic takes control of a region, builds up an army.
[2016-02-11 22:13:57] <Nepene> Their troops kill a lot of people, fight for some cause.
[2016-02-11 22:14:08] <Nepene> A stronger central government eventually stops them.
[2016-02-11 22:14:51] <Hex> It only gets dicey when they can inspire that raw fanatic loyalty.
[2016-02-11 22:15:01] <Nepene> Their movement falls apart, because people have no actual independent desire for whatever scheme.
[2016-02-11 22:15:02] <Hex> Because fanaticism is impossible to counter.
[2016-02-11 22:15:17] <Nepene> Fanaticism is easy to counter- kill the charismatic leaders.
[2016-02-11 22:15:26] <Hex> Tell that to Nagasaki.
[2016-02-11 22:15:41] <Nepene> The city?
[2016-02-11 22:16:16] <Hex> We'd killed at least a dozen Japanese generals. We bombed Nagasaki/Hiroshima because there was, quite literally no other way.
[2016-02-11 22:17:08] <Nepene> I'm not entirely sure what would have happened if we'd nuked their emperor or chief generals instead.
[2016-02-11 22:17:19] <Somecrazyguy> uh
[2016-02-11 22:17:21] <Somecrazyguy> wrong
[2016-02-11 22:17:30] <Somecrazyguy> Japan had been trying to get a ceasefire
[2016-02-11 22:17:37] <Somecrazyguy> but that wasn't good enough for the americans
[2016-02-11 22:17:43] <Somecrazyguy> we wanted an unconditional surrender
[2016-02-11 22:18:32] <Nepene> They were currently genociding asian nations
[2016-02-11 22:18:40] <Nepene> so there was some need for a fairly strong surrender
[2016-02-11 22:19:23] <Somecrazyguy> I'm not arguing that, just saying there was another way
[2016-02-11 22:19:33] <Somecrazyguy> that way just happened to include china getting fucked
[2016-02-11 22:19:58] <Nepene> Yeah
[2016-02-11 22:20:33] <Nepene> From wiki
[2016-02-11 22:20:35] <Nepene> "Japanese leaders had always envisioned a negotiated settlement to the war. Their prewar planning expected a rapid expansion and consolidation, an eventual conflict with the United States, and finally a settlement in which they would be able to retain at least some new territory they had conquered."
[2016-02-11 22:20:49] <Somecrazyguy> hahahahahahhahaha
[2016-02-11 22:20:54] <Nepene> So their idea of surrender was...
[2016-02-11 22:20:55] <Somecrazyguy> hilariousinhindsight.png
[2016-02-11 22:21:06] <Somecrazyguy> Hey we'll stop fighting now that i won china
[2016-02-11 22:21:08] <Somecrazyguy> okay?
[2016-02-11 22:21:26] <Elara> in fairness, by mid-45, they were thinking more in terms of retaining the Emperor and pre-war territories
[2016-02-11 22:21:30] <Somecrazyguy> lolno u are getting nuked and occupied for the rest of the fucking century and beyond
[2016-02-11 22:21:36] <Nepene> They had imagined a similar conflict to the one they had in 1905 with Russia.
[2016-02-11 22:21:37] <STLICTX> Makhno was a great man, and he encouraged independence in everyone he encountered and was not the only one involved in the black army with great drive for the cause; there was a woman who tried to keep it going after he left even, which worked ot well and he was only one person in the anarchistic circles around that time and was himself constantly learning. He was betrayed by his teacher Arshino, betrayed by Lenin, he did everything he did
[2016-02-11 22:21:38] <STLICTX> while extremely sick, he never had proper supplies... he had flaws, and was indeed charismatic, but he was only one inspiring commander of an anarchist movement that preceded him and which was actively involved in many ways in the russian revolution before they were suppressed. Makhno is merely one great and inspiring figure within that wider movement
[2016-02-11 22:21:45] <Nepene> They wiped out the Russian fleet then with a surprise attack too.
[2016-02-11 22:21:55] <Somecrazyguy> man
[2016-02-11 22:22:00] <Nepene> They ignored lower down advisors who pointed out that the US economy was ten times bigger than theirs.
[2016-02-11 22:22:03] <Elara> but any surrender was going to see the people trying to surrender facing a coup attempt/assassinations
[2016-02-11 22:22:03] <Somecrazyguy> Japan was absolutely wrecking Russia in 1905
[2016-02-11 22:22:12] <Elara> so y'know, it was going to have issues either way
[2016-02-11 22:22:34] <Somecrazyguy> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlDgOIdD3BY
[2016-02-11 22:22:47] <Somecrazyguy> Bernie campaign staff shown helping voter fraud happen
[2016-02-11 22:23:03] =-= Constans_ is now known as Constans
[2016-02-11 22:23:37] <STLICTX> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bB4MFiHH1qw
[2016-02-11 22:24:25] <Somecrazyguy> By the way, anyone that has a problem with voter id laws
[2016-02-11 22:24:31] <Somecrazyguy> i will shove this vid down their throat for the rest of time
[2016-02-11 22:25:18] |<-- Hex has left irc.parahumans.net (Ping timeout: 181 seconds)
[2016-02-11 22:26:10] <Elara> I have many problems with voter ID laws. have an electoral roll? sure. ask people to somehow show they're the person on the roll? sure. much more than that tends to look like voting suppression rather than anything else, not least when fraud rates are demonstrably very low
[2016-02-11 22:26:22] <Nepene> I read up in the Japanese conditional surrender demands. Continued 'independence' for Manuchukuo. Yeah.
[2016-02-11 22:26:25] <Nepene> Not going to happen.
[2016-02-11 22:26:33] <Nepene> A puppet state in China and Mongolia.
[2016-02-11 22:27:06] <Somecrazyguy> Uh
[2016-02-11 22:27:18] <Somecrazyguy> Elara last election there were a bunch of dead people votes in NH
[2016-02-11 22:27:43] <Elara> how many?
[2016-02-11 22:28:34] <Somecrazyguy> god damn it hold up
[2016-02-11 22:28:44] <Somecrazyguy> all google brings up is stuff from current election
[2016-02-11 22:28:49] <Somecrazyguy> even after adjusting for like sep 2015
[2016-02-11 22:30:17] <Somecrazyguy> not finding the actual numbers, so yeah, i guess you can call me out on source
[2016-02-11 22:30:27] <Nepene> http://godfatherpolitics.com/dead-people-voting-in-new-hampshire-primary-why-democrats-dont-want-photo-id/
[2016-02-11 22:30:34] <Nepene> This is probably the sort of thing you mean
[2016-02-11 22:30:39] <Nepene> From ten seconds of googling
[2016-02-11 22:30:48] <STLICTX> From what I know, voter ID laws do seem very targetted towards suppression of some votes, sch as groups who may find it difficult to get proper ID. While I'm not a fan of electoral politics in general it would seem to me preferabe to have a few 'necromantic' votes than to specifically disenfranchise some groups because that amounts to a slap in the face towards people already in a "low" position.
[2016-02-11 22:31:20] <Somecrazyguy> Again nepene, no actual numbers
[2016-02-11 22:31:59] <Somecrazyguy> Keep in mind that it isn't even a driver's license needed stlictx
[2016-02-11 22:32:04] <Somecrazyguy> it's just a state id card
[2016-02-11 22:32:12] <Somecrazyguy> which, in my state for example, is $24
[2016-02-11 22:32:13] <Nepene> http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/viewSubCategory.asp?id=2216
[2016-02-11 22:32:26] <Nepene> The new [New York] statewide database of registered voters contains as many as 77,000 dead people on its rolls, and as many as 2,600 of them have cast votes from the grave. The [Poughkeepsie] Journal identified dead people on the voter rolls in all 62 counties and people in as many as 45 counties who had votes recorded after they had died.
[2016-02-11 22:32:27] <Nepene> One address in the Bronx was listed as the home for as many as 191 registered voters who had died. The address is 5901 Palisade Ave., site of the Hebrew Home for the Aged.
[2016-02-11 22:32:27] <Nepene> Democrats who cast votes after they died outnumbered Republicans by more than a 4-to-1 margin. The reason: Most of them came from Democrat-dominated New York City, where higher population produced more matches.
[2016-02-11 22:32:31] <Somecrazyguy> Very few people that vote are unable to afford a $24 expenditure
[2016-02-11 22:32:32] <Elara> to be fair, I mostly go by UK standards, where you literally don't have to take anything, just know that your name is on the register
[2016-02-11 22:32:44] <Nepene> Democrats have the necromancer demographic locked down.
[2016-02-11 22:33:01] <Somecrazyguy> Thanks nepene
[2016-02-11 22:33:07] <Somecrazyguy> my google-game is lacking atm
[2016-02-11 22:33:08] <Nepene> You're welcome.
[2016-02-11 22:33:26] <Somecrazyguy> Anyway, 2400 dead votes. I consider that a lot.
[2016-02-11 22:33:31] <Somecrazyguy> 2600*
[2016-02-11 22:33:32] <Elara> and..it seems to work. there's a bit of fraud around postal voting, but virtually nothing (~100 votes per general election) that involve people voting fraudulently in person
[2016-02-11 22:33:55] <Somecrazyguy> Alright, is there someone actively investigating each vote?
[2016-02-11 22:33:56] <STLICTX> For some people 24$ can be a really big deal. Like, "will I be able to eat this week" sort of deal
[2016-02-11 22:34:07] <Somecrazyguy> If you are literally worried about eating this week
[2016-02-11 22:34:13] <Somecrazyguy> Are you really voting
[2016-02-11 22:34:19] <Nepene> You should be voting for someone who promises to give you food.
[2016-02-11 22:34:22] <Somecrazyguy> Or are you busy trying to find money so you can eat
[2016-02-11 22:35:14] <Nepene> You may have a part time job, as you're over qualified for any full time positions, or several.
[2016-02-11 22:35:15] <Somecrazyguy> I do find the fact that the MVA takes so much money to be appalling, though.
[2016-02-11 22:35:55] <Somecrazyguy> @Nepe consider it a business expenditure
[2016-02-11 22:36:10] <Somecrazyguy> with an id, you can buy liquor, which you can sell to the underaged peoples of your neighborhood.
[2016-02-11 22:36:22] <Somecrazyguy> Easily make your money back in a day
[2016-02-11 22:36:22] <Elara> it takes time to pick up an ID, presumably
[2016-02-11 22:36:27] <Somecrazyguy> About 2 hours
[2016-02-11 22:36:34] <Elara> 2 hours, ok
[2016-02-11 22:36:35] <Somecrazyguy> if you're really unlucky
[2016-02-11 22:36:38] <Elara> what hours are they open?
[2016-02-11 22:36:41] <Somecrazyguy> really, really unlucky
[2016-02-11 22:36:42] <Elara> and where's the office?
[2016-02-11 22:36:46] <Somecrazyguy> 9-5 typically
[2016-02-11 22:36:57] <Nepene> Sadly, few are as wise and entrepreneurial as you.
[2016-02-11 22:37:01] <Elara> so if you work 9-5, when are you going to be able to get an ID?
[2016-02-11 22:37:05] <Somecrazyguy> Pretty sure every office is right next to a damn bus stop
[2016-02-11 22:37:40] <Nepene> Some people do manage to avoid such restrictions, some people are better placed geographically.
[2016-02-11 22:37:55] <Nepene> But a lot of poor voters are excluded, a lot of minorities who have crappy public services around them.
[2016-02-11 22:38:03] <Somecrazyguy> Source?
[2016-02-11 22:38:54] <Nepene> http://money.cnn.com/2015/08/05/news/economy/poor-people-voting-rights/
[2016-02-11 22:39:01] <Somecrazyguy> oh
[2016-02-11 22:39:06] <Elara> I mean, there are times it takes me a week to get to the post office, and there's one in the middle of town. Only time I'm around and it's open is Saturday morning
[2016-02-11 22:39:07] <Somecrazyguy> @Elara apparently they're open on sat as well
[2016-02-11 22:39:17] <Somecrazyguy> Explicitly for drivers licenses and id's on that day
[2016-02-11 22:39:38] <Somecrazyguy> 8:30 am to 12pm
[2016-02-11 22:39:48] <Somecrazyguy> Unless you work 6 days a week
[2016-02-11 22:40:03] <Nepene> Being too busy is the reason why 28% of poorer voters did not vote in 2012
[2016-02-11 22:40:04] <Somecrazyguy> you should be able to find a time to go
[2016-02-11 22:40:15] <Somecrazyguy> Voting should be a goddamned off day
[2016-02-11 22:40:18] <Nepene> So, obviously, they don't find a time to go
[2016-02-11 22:40:20] <Somecrazyguy> and the fact that it isn't speaks volume
[2016-02-11 22:40:21] <Somecrazyguy> s
[2016-02-11 22:40:40] <Elara> elections should absolutely be a holiday
[2016-02-11 22:40:43] <Somecrazyguy> Federally mandated holiday
[2016-02-11 22:40:58] <Somecrazyguy> Because otherwise everyone who works on that day is disenfranchised
[2016-02-11 22:41:03] <Elara> they're a key part of how the system works, inasmuch as it does. let's fucking celebrate it
[2016-02-11 22:41:15] <Somecrazyguy> That too i guess
[2016-02-11 22:41:16] <Somecrazyguy> woo
[2016-02-11 22:41:22] <Somecrazyguy> another thing we agree on
[2016-02-11 22:41:40] <Somecrazyguy> Anywho, even when I was at my most destitute, I was able to find a ride to the MVA
[2016-02-11 22:41:53] <Elara> tho tbf polling stations here are open something like 7am to 10pm
[2016-02-11 22:41:54] <Somecrazyguy> I know, because my school was a block from it, and I needed a ride, had zero cash
[2016-02-11 22:42:10] <Somecrazyguy> Still managed to get there, an hour early
[2016-02-11 22:42:38] <Somecrazyguy> ((No it wasn't a school bus))