<Tian> I wrote it before, earlier during the day - when the question about cauterization and 'napalm' were rised: fire spec is not supposed to be able to 'self heal' as its magic is intristically elemental, damaging, volatile. It's a damaging spec that specializes on outward-damaging with the only closest 'mild-buffing' effect that might come to mind being 'Warming' or protection against cold elements
[16:34] <Tian> (bad weather 'n such) by maintaining warmth within own body
[16:36] <Tangent> Okay.
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[16:36] <Tian> Cauterization 'healing' anything doesn't makes sense from fluff's perspective or world's logic, besides trying to pull in the beneficial effect and use 'it's magic' as an argumentation. At best a fire spec should be able to close off wounds/prevent outward bleeding, but creating a full spell for that seems like an overkill, given that any fire-magic's spell that can bring out fire/heat can be
[16:36] <Tian> equally used for the same purpose (except for over the top blasting stuff)
[16:37] <Tian> Pyromancers are just that - magic/fire/manipulation of thermal energy, hence the entire combustion stuff.
[16:38] <Tangent> Fire as volatile, sure. Damage-focused, sure. But fire is also cleansing, purifying (albeit in a more messy way than, say, reinforcement) so the idea that it's solely damage-based is odd.
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[16:38] <Tian> Hence the gasoline/napalm spell wasn't making any sense as it was written, too: "dozing objects with gasoline/napalm and setting them on fire, blah blah"
[16:38] <Tangent> Gasoline's fluff was shit.
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[16:38] <Tangent> But making stuff burn BETTER seems like maybe the most iconic fire, damage-based spell possible.
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[16:38] <Tian> But it can be refluffed into inducing/triggering self-combustion
[16:38] <Tangent> Which made it strange to see THAT gone.
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[16:39] <Tian> In living beings
[16:39] <Tangent> At best a fire spec should be able to close off wounds/prevent outward bleeding <-Frankly, while fire cauterization could do with an overhaul, a "close wounds temporarily to keep going on your last legs" thing works. As for closing wounds....That's pretty much the intent of the old spell as I saw it,
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[16:40] <Tangent> It WASN'T a free heal.
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[16:40] <Tangent> It had a clear penalty in that your maximum health was dropped just by the act of healing.
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[16:41] <Tangent> Like...you can argue that penalty wasn't ENOUGH for fire, given its emphasis, and that'd be fair, but surely if we're talking fluff, "stoking inner fires/warmth" counts?
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[16:41] <Tian> Which doesn't makes much sense from fluff PoV or entire pyrokinesis theme... preventing an effect doesn't translates into revitalized/regenrated tissue
[16:42] <Tian> *regenerated
[16:42] <Tangent> Closing wounds. Regeneration not a thing...
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[16:43] <Tian> Cauterization doesn't 'regenerates' wounds, it literally burns and glazes the tissue, hence preventing bleeding
[16:43] <Tangent> Right. Hmm.
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[16:43] <Tangent> Like...I'm honestly NOT trying to break fire- and frankly if fire's auras weren't all but gone, I'd probably be less annoyed by this.
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[16:45] <Tangent> Okay. Zene's idea was "a boost and then self-DoT as it slowly wears off, myself"
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[16:46] * Tian sighs
[16:47] <Tangent> I'll copypaste this stuff above btw
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[16:47] <Tangent> What if cauterize ignored wound penalties for a certain number of turns?
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[16:48] <Tangent> That'd fit the fluff without the issues with regen.
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[16:55] <Tian> I've just the same sort of a discussion two years ago when in the last group we were figuring out magical colleges and touching on pyrokinesis/fire magic. Everything that regulates thermal energy/fire effects, etc, t'was squeezed into a formula of: pointy-bolt/jet-like-damage, projectile/barrage like damage (fireballs/etc), cone-jet like damage (wave of flame/walls/etc), area damage (fire's
[16:55] <Tian> conjured not out of the user, but triggered within the area), making thermal reactions go faster/slower (hence spells that either buff/debuff fire-effects or alternatively buff/debuff objects to be more/less fire-prone, or buff/debuff people to be warmer/colder), and then disintegration-like effects (you try to make the object burst into flames on its own without 'bolts' or 'projectiles') which
[16:55] <Tian> counted as a more advanced form of fire magic.... and that's basically it. Everything else varied in the scale - smaller effects, bigger effects, large effects, imprecise effects, precise effects and so on - but the logic stayed the same. Viturgy/vita-magic aka everything that had healing effects was a completely different thing...
[16:55] <Tian> The problem that I have with cauterization 'ignoring wound penalties' is... you do know how cauterization actually feels, right?
[16:56] <Tian> I mean, it literally feels like getting branded by the heated up metal
[16:57] <Tian> That's actually what it is... like those brands that cattle get - that's essentially what it is... and it's painful as fuck not only when the 'brand' is placed, but also, under normal conditions, for days later. Granted magical girls are magical girls, sure, but we can't say that magucas literally don't feel pain, at all
[16:58] <Tangent> Well there IS fire resistance but hmm.
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[16:58] <Tian> ... unless they are soul jar'ed
[16:58] <Tian> Or have 'numb' like perks
[16:59] <Tian> I mean, fire resistance is fire resistance.... if maguca's body would resist fire's effect, then how would cauterization work in the first place when it 'must' burn the flesh to cork up the tissue
[17:01] <Tangent> Seared rather than just charred away to ashes?
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[17:04] <Tian> See, then there's another issue that arises... the more I look into it, the more it feels like a 'cantrip', a side-effect that can be applied from other mild/targeting fire spells. There are some melee-enchanting fire spells - what prevents a mahou localizing the very same effect, only instead of her 'touch' or blade - surge the effect to her wounds?
[17:04] <Tangent> Hmm?
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[17:05] <Tangent> Also as an aside
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[17:05] <Tangent> I think my main issue with this change
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[17:05] <Tangent> is that it's the LAST real fire defensive. (Walls are something else entirely) And yes while fire is hardly reinforcement tiers of self-healing, or damage reduction, are you telling me that the tree that could in theory pull a molten man won't have a defensive at all?
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[17:05] <Tian> I'm both against the change and against the original idea, since it was proposed
[17:06] <Tian> *was, since it was proposed
[17:06] <Tangent> Cauterize makes sense. Make it magical if pain resistance is an issue but the idea in some form making it into the tree is fine.
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[17:06] <Tangent> Since there's something very fire'y about searing the damage.
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[17:07] <Tian> It doesn't makes sense for it to be a 'spell' and not a secondary application of fire-magic in general
[17:07] <Tangent> Honestly, if either of the fire auras were still in the tree, I'd have fewer issues.
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[17:07] <Tangent> Eh?
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[17:08] <Tian> You don't need an entirely 'dedicated' spell for cauterization to be used as a seconary effect is what I'm saying. It's like a cantrip/passive ability. A fire-mage who knows how to control own powers and bend/produce thermal effects would be able to repurpose fire for such a use
[17:09] <Tangent> Spells are more to have representation
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[17:09] <Tangent> If we have passives tbh...
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[17:09] <Tangent> I'd rather make the soak 4 Mag spell a passive
[17:09] <Tian> Guh...
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[17:09] <Tian> ... I'm not sure if you're getting me
[17:09] <Tangent> it's bad enough that no one will ever use it
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[17:09] <Tangent> as a spell
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[17:09] <Tian> It's literally not *magic*
[17:09] <Tian> Not a *spell*
[17:09] <Tangent> Hmmm.
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[17:09] <Tian> But a secondary, inadvertent /effect/
[17:09] <Tian> You can cauterize a wound with an oil-lamp
[17:10] <Tangent> I kind of think it makes more sense as an intentional, focused application of said magic.
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[17:10] <Tian> Or a piece of metal heated up over ordinary fire
[17:10] <Tangent> Like you're USING fire that way.
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[17:10] <Tangent> For passives though?
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[17:10] <Tangent> "Strengthen one's weapon with a burning soul, allowing it to pierce through Soak. For the duration of this effect, for every 9 or 10 the caster rolls on a melee or unarmed attack that successfully hits the target, they pierce 1 more Soak."
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[17:10] <Tangent> This makes sense as a passive.
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[17:10] <Tangent> As a spell it's ehhhhhhh
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[17:10] <Tian> ... you're completely missing the point...
[17:11] <Tangent> Got sidetracked.
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[17:11] <Tangent> But for cauterizing wounds I think it being a spell fits as an intentional application of said flame, evenly and taking time and focus to do it?
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[17:12] <Tangent> I mean how would it work as a passive?
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[17:12] <Tangent> If we had a passive tbh...the passive would probably be offense-focused
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[17:12] <Tangent> since that's fire's emphasis right?
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[17:19] <Tian> Any girl can use an oil-lamp, a piece of metal with a camp fire, or any other source of heat, regardless of if they have a fire-spec-or-not. Any ordinary human can use the same, to apply the same effect. You dry-burn the top layer of the flesh for a brief moment of time to dry it up. A fire-mage can do the same thing using /any/ spell they have in their arsenal, from the tiniest of spells, to
[17:19] <Tian> the biggest one's. As such, 'cauterization' is not a /spell/, /nor/ it's a /passive/ - it's application of powers that you already have at a /much/ smaller scale to be considered a fully fledged spell, nor use of it grants any immediate bonuses, but preventing bleeding - in limited cases. You can't cauterize a limb that has multiple, deep, torn wounds, without severely damaging things in the
[17:19] <Tian> process, thing that can be diminished if a fire-mage gets involved, but it would still have logical limitations. As such, any player, a fire-mage, or any other player who has access to the source of fire, can declare to the GM, "Hey, I want to use X to help out my ally who has grevious wounds and is bleeding and try to close those wounds off" and the GM will provide/judge appropriate rolls/actions
[17:19] <Tian> according to what is being treated.
[17:21] <Tian> Even if the effect is elevated and turned into a spell, claiming fire mastery, cauterization in still just that. You still need to burn flesh. The treatment prevents bleeding and doesn't 'regenerates' anything, nor it provides any bonuses... the only 'bonus' or how it can be explained lies in the 'adrenalin', but bringing out 'adrenalin' on command makes even less of a sense for a fire
[17:21] <Tian> specialization
[17:22] <Tian> And 'adrenalin' is not that much of a 'maguca' related thing
[17:24] <Tangent> Why are we taking it literally rather than figuratively, incidentally? You're treating it as real world physics simulator there, and that's a bit odd to me.  And honestly...I don't see why a non-fire girl would be able to cauterize
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[17:24] <Tian> Cauterization providing some 'bonus HP' or 'bonus reaction time' or other self-buffs for a brief period of time, as performed by a pyromancer, seems more like a 'having a cake and wanting to have it too'
[17:25] <Tian> As a damage-centric specialization
[17:25] <Tian> Or something that deals with a volatile element
[17:28] <Tian> A non-fire girl would be able to cauterize by applying 'common sense'... because want it or not, ordinary fire in the world we're playing in also 'burns', same reaction, ergo it can burn flesh, ergo with basic understanding of how fire works, even without first aid training, anyone can cauterize the outer flesh/wounds
[17:28] <Tangent> Centric, not /solely capable/. My irritation is that cauterization as a magical effect of your magic is fine. The specific crunch, sure, but the changes irritate me on two fronts. 1. It was the last thing that resembled a fire defense power. What's left is "fire resistance" and "a wall", 2. I don't see an issue with the idea behind it- namely, burning yourself to prevent worse damage or to keep going for a time. Not "regenerative" so much as "limping along".
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[17:29] <Tangent> Except that's fluff. We're talking magical fire being used for a specific thematic effect.
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[17:29] <Tangent> *GM discretion for freeform
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