<q> do you want to give subm 5 minutes to join up?
<Saundra> smiles well start whenever subm said to start
<q> ah we can start now then :)
<Saundra> yay
<q> Here is the Discussion Outline:
<q> NLP Memory Reframes and EMDR
<q> 1. How memories are formed and  modified
<q> 2. NLP Memory Reframes
<q> 3. EMDR
<q> 4. Effectiveness
<q> 1. How memories are formed and modified
<q> 1. The person activates or recalls their memory of an event.
<q> 2. The memory is opened in short term memory
<q> 3. the memory information is used, modified, or has new information added to it
<q> 4. the memory is reconsolidated or re stabilized in long term memory
<q> 5. While a memory is open in short term memory it can be modified in that short time window. This is where EMDR and NLP Memory Reframes can help.
<q> 2. NLP Memory Reframes
<q> 1. The memory is activated or recalled by the subject.
<q> 2. The subject is asked to visualize the memory in front of them, as if on a screen
<q> 3. The subject is asked to re-visualize the memory in third person, smaller, and less significant. This detaches the memory from its emotional impact.
<q> 4. The memory is reconsolidated with less emotional impact
<q> 5. Short video demonstration of a Memory Reframe with Dr. Richard Bandler https://youtu.be/Z_RQxt0Wcgk
<q> 3. EMDR
<q> 1. EMDR stands for Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing
<q> 2. The subject is asked to recall or activate the memory.
<q> 3. The subject while recalling the memory is asked to rapidly move their eyes from side to side(sometimes following a therapist's fingers)
<q> 4. The task of moving the eyes rapidly fills up the short term or working memory. This causes some of the detail and emotional charge of the memory to be lost from the short term memory
<q> 5. The memory is reconsolidated with less detail and impact.
<q> 6. Short video on EMDR: https://youtu.be/hKrfH43srg8
<q> 4. Effectiveness
<q> 1. NLP memory reframes have not been studied seriously by the psychology community. However NLP practitioners and hypnotists have been this pattern, and similar variations of memory reframes for decades and have gotten positive feedback from many subjects.
<q> 2. EMDR has proven to be reliably effective in studies, and is quite easy to use. EMDR is easier to explain and requires less effort on the part of the subject. EMDR works better on civillian PTSD than it does on military PTSD
<q> 3. Memory Reframes and EMDR do not require dangerous and or expensive medications
<q> 4.Memory Reframes and EMDR are cheap to use, and these techniques can be taught quickly
<q> the discussion outline is great if someone has just joined or has gotten lost in the discussion
<muscled-jock> hello saundra, thanks for the welcom
<Saundra> lots to read  just a sec
<q> yeah I wanted to make sure no one got lost so I typed up an IRC formatted outline :)
<Saundra> so q can you expand and explain a bit?
<q> indeed I can :)
<Saundra> oh good
<q> EMDR was a therapy devised by Francine Shapiro in the 70s and 80s
<q> she noticed that herself and her patients tended to move their eyes from side to side when dealing with a particularly traumatic memory, but only slightly
<q> so she experimented with rapid movements and would explain the phenomenon as allowing better processing of a memory
<Saundra> so it is the result of memory or it affects the memory?
<q> memory researchers and hypnotists would explain EMDR as a memory modification
<q> it effects the memory it seems Saundra
<Saundra> but not done intentionally
<q> the patients were slightly moving their eyes to mitigate the stress the excessively traumatic memories caused
<q> it was an unconscious action
<Saundra> nods
<q> however if we magnify this by making the eye movements larger and more rapid we get more of an effect
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<q> the memory fills up the working memory, and when we start moving our eyes sensory information crowds into working memory also
<q> causing some details and emotion tied to the memory to be lost
<q> so the memory looses its emotional impact
<q> kind of like a video that has become grainy
<q> a grainy video does not have the same impact emotionally as one that is clear and vivid
<Saundra> so if you intentionally look back and forth all memories get stronger?
<q> ah sort of Saundra , when we intentionally move our eyes back and forth the sensory information weakens whatever memory is in the working memory at that time
<q> so it slowly dismantles the memory
<q> the working memory can only hold so much information
<Saundra> ah
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<Saundra> hi Ashleybabe
<q> so we flood the working memory with the memory from the task, in this case moving the eyes from side to side
<Ashleybabe> Hello
<flora> yo? yoyo!
<q> hi
<Saundra> so if you want to erase a bad memory you think of it and look back and forth?
<q> indeed
<q> you activate or recall the memory
<q> then use rapid eye movement from side to side while recalling the memory to weaken it
<Saundra> welcome Ashleybabe, we're chatting about ways to alter memory, if you are interested in hypnosis please PM when convenient
<q> there is a great illustrated youtube video that visually shows the process https://youtu.be/hKrfH43srg8
<Saundra> how long does the weakening last?
<q> well generally EMDR is used twice a day in a session at first
<q> maybe for a couple of days
<q> after that EMDR is used less and less frequently because the memory no longer has much strength anymore
<q> and its just used as needed by then
<q> generally how fast EMDR will work depends on how severe the traumatic memory was
<Saundra> nods
<q> so for a child hood trauma thats severe, like physical, mental, or sexual abuse, it may take a couple weeks
<q> sometimes even more if the person has a lot of those memories
<Saundra> does other moment do anythink or just eyes?  and only horizontal movement?
<q> generally Saundra it seems that horizontal seems to work better
<q> although you can use stimulation of the right and left fingertips(alternatively) and still get EMDR to work effectively
<q> the eye thing is easier though
<q> (unless your subject has no eyes, or no working eyes)
<Saundra> nods
<q> it is important to know the fingertip one if you are a therapist
<q> because you may get visually impaired subjects
<Saundra> nods, any theories of what is happening neurologically?
<q> it seems that the working memory or short term memory is in the hippocampus
<q> and processes like EMDR fill up the Short Term Memory loop
<q> the neurons fire in sort of a loop to keep information floating in the STM
<q> if we flood other data in there
<Saundra> but they are long term memories?
<q> the extracted traumatic memory gets lost out
<q> ah
<q> the memory is extracted into short term memory to be recalled and used
<q> then after that is finished the brain sticks it back into LTM
<Saundra> oh and idea is that not replaced?
<q> so we damage the memory while its vulnerable in STM
<q> the memory looses its detail
<Saundra> nods
<q> it gets "fuzzy"
<q> by flooding the STM we dont totally erase it
<q> so the patient can still learn from their experiences
<flora> so the patient can still learn from their sexperiences
<q> or subject
<q> but it no longer is vivid enough to cause pain
<Saundra> what is we hypnotize someone - recall the trauma and then give suggestions and overload?
<q> ah in trance that might totally move them off the memory
<q> that might actually *destroy* the memory
<q> as there is a special pattern that exists for that purpose called the memory interrupt
<Saundra> well more dangerous but also maybe good?
<q> it has some upsides
<latewood> flora has no off switch apparently
<Saundra> nods
<q> it wipes the memory out pretty well in relatively few sessions
<q> but the subject no longer has the memory to learn from it
<q> or will find it very difficult to recall it
<Saundra> damn phone brb but please continue
<q> so if it was a life experience that was important and impacted their life in some way they will no longer have the memory to learn from
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<Cortana> Teaser for subm^ -  I care about all of you - to view the full profile type: !view subm^
<SeducingSpirit> please join us subm^, please try not to forget what you didn't remember when you arrived
<q> however the memory interrupt pattern is seldom taught to junior hypnotists and NLP practitioners because of how easy it is to incorrectly apply it. Similar exists with regression hypnosis
<q> some NLP and hypnosis schools wait until year two to teach the memory interrupt
<q> mostly because memory reframes and EMDR are usually safer to use with less skill
<q> welcome back subm^ :)
<q> let me give you the log of what you missed
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<SeducingSpirit> so good of you to come joey, try not to gaze at the screen and slip into trance
<joey> hello
* flora hugs joey. Hi~
<q> hello joey welcome
<q> we are having the discussion of memory modification
<q> memory reframes and EMDR
<q> anyway Saundra does does point out the advantages of memory interrupts very well
<q> they are effective, but sometimes too effective
<q> lol
<q> anyway EMDR or eye movement desensitization and reprocessing has a small advantage over reframes
<subm^> ty joey
<q> that advantage is that EMDR is very simple to use and teach
<subm^> ty q
<q> while the effect of EMDR is not as profound as the reframe, it is reliable and easy, and in a therapy situation that sometimes causes therapists to prefer EMDR
<q> of course both memory reframes and EMDR do both work on the same principle
<q> and some hypnotists and NLP practitioners have put together softer versions of memory interrupts that are essentially very similar to EMDR without knowing it
<q> lots of therapists, hypnotists, NLPers, and psychologists have accidentally reinvented the wheel many times lol
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<SeducingSpirit> greetings Dechha1981, please feel free to slip into mindless oblivion at any time
<q> welcome
<q> you are very welcome subm^ :)
<q> anyway the memory reframe takes longer to teach initially than EMDR, but is still rather effective as one can see in the video demonstration: https://youtu.be/Z_RQxt0Wcgk
<q> the best part about both EMDR and NLP memory reframes is that they can be taught to subjects as self help coping mechanisms
<q> so if a subject has profound levels of traumatic memories and phobias EMDR and NLP reframes can both be effective for helping a subject patch themselves up so they don't need as frequent visits to their counselor
<q> saving the counselors time, and the subject money
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<q> EMDR is very attractive for those that want effective solutions for traumatic memories that do not require lots of time, money, or drugs
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<SeducingSpirit> greetings velvetgirl, please notice the deep pleasure and arousal of trance while you are here
<Saundra> q sorry I missed some
<q> no worries Saundra :)
<Saundra> does EMDR need refresh?
<Saundra> like do you need to repeat process?
<q> after the initial sessions
<subm^> (hi velvetgirl )(hi Saundra )
<q> very rarely
<q> initial sessions may repeat the process several times
<Saundra> hi sub hi velvetgirl
<q> later on people do not need to refresh very often
<q> sometimes months to years between refreshes
<q> (eventually there is simply no need to refresh)
<Saundra> so when subject can't recall event then you are done?
<q> with EMDR we only weaken the memory
<q> not really intending to erase
<q> however with other methods that do erase
<q> we usually try to put something positive in the "hole"
<q> usually with a suggestion
<Saundra> hmmm  what if they see a picture does it come back?
<q> very weakly
<Saundra> something positive?
<q> well lets say we wiped a memory of child abuse
<q> we might use suggestive questioning to place a neutral or positive event in its place
<q> but
 Saundra subm^ SeducingSpirit shiny_subm Spiral Stiny
 Saundra subm^ SeducingSpirit shiny_subm Spiral Stiny
<Saundra> like something different happened in same setting?
<subm^> few quick questions please when you have time q
<q> sure subm^
<q> yeah Saundra
<q> have you ever seen MIB where they flashed people and then stuck a positive memory in its place? think of that, but with a few more words, and using leading questions to actually plant the memory
<velvetgirl> hi Saundra hi subm^
<Saundra> goe ahead subm
* Saundra hugs velvetgirl
<q> we can actually do that by accident using regression hypnosis
<Saundra> nods
<q> the way we ask a question Saundra can be suggestive in nature
<subm^> when does memory reshaping  and EMDR need to be done ti be effective relative to ltm and stm?
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<q> generally subm^ within 15 minutes of recalling the memory
<q> general while the memory is being recalled
<q> if we ask the subject to recall the memory tonight, then wait until morning to do eye movement, that will not do that much, because the memory gets re-consolidated usually in about 15 minutes or so
<subm^> it is recalled from ltm and placed into stm again or is that not correct?
<q> that is correct
<q> to remember something we pull it from ltm into stm
<subm^> If either EMDR or memory reframing is done prior to entry into ltm does that blunt some of the trauma that quickly?
<q> EMDR is usually effective during the first session
<q> as is a memory refrae
<q> reframe*
<q> a session may involve 4 recalls and EMDR bits
<q> that is if working with a therapist
<Saundra> nods
<q> they like to repeat the EMDR several times during the hour
<q> mostly because several 15 minute sessions would be exhausting to schedule
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<SeducingSpirit> welcome mib_r42tde, let me take your mind and you may wear these soft warm slippers as you sink into oblivion when you wish
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<q> an EMDR therapist will sometimes do more than simply EMDR the memory
<q> they may talk about the memory first
<subm^> I mean suppose someone has a traumatic event and immediately uses EDMR or memory reframing themselves will that blunt some of the trauma before it goes into ltm?
<q> help the patient try to rationalize or get it off their chest
<q> I expect it would subm^
<q> some research did suggest that
<Saundra> then can you just ask someone to look back and forth for like 5 minutes?
<q> you could do that, even for one minute
<q> or get them to follow your fingers with their eyes
<q> that would be both an eye damage test and EMDR all wrapped up into one
<Saundra> smiles
<q> of course EMTs don't do it for one minute straight lol, but if they did they might notice people with less trauma
<subm^> Sorry for so many questions I was way behind
<q> hey no problem subm^
<q> the point of a discussion is to discuss :-)
<subm^> thank you
<q> Q&A gives a discussion more life than just one guy typing for an hour lol
<q> anyway EMDR is gaining favor with the UN and WHO
<Saundra> its a little complicated and questions help me
<subm^> Have we discussed effectiveness? Effectiveness relative to hypnosis?
<q> indeed Saundra :)
<Saundra> i like the combination with trance
<subm^> acceptance by those  who would use the methodology?
<q> hypnosis is effective but requires more skill and time, and some subjects do not respond as well as others, however in trance we can weaken a memory with a confusion pattern as Saundra mentioned
<q> and some will find the in hypnosis version more pleasant
<q> and more effective
<q> well EMDR is easier to use outside of trance
<q> moving the eyes all over the place can cause someone to fall out of trance
<subm^> but the EMDR weakens memory just by the quick eye movements, correct?
<q> indeed subm^
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<SeducingSpirit> welcome sungazer, please be comfortable, take off your shoes and leave your mind at the door
<Saundra> I have noticed that memory loss with trance often happens most with overload - wonder if similar mechanism
<q> the quick eye movements flood information into the stm
<q> generally yes Saundra
<q> in fact some of our hypnosis pamphlets had to be re-written
<q> it turns out that getting a subject to remember something pleasant can calm them
<q> and interrupting that memory can produce a profound trance
<subm^> (hi sungazer )
<q> but that also weakens that positive memory
<sungazer> (hi this sounds interesting!)
<q> which is not what we want to do in this case lol
<q> so our guides on hypnosis no longer discuss using pattern interrupts and overloads in conjunction with memory recall as an induction
<q> but to neutralize a traumatic memory, that would work very well Saundra
<q> great question :)
<q> and yes overload fills up the short term memory well enough that memory loss is very likely
<q> its one reason when working with an overload induction some hypnotists will use repetition with their suggestions
<Saundra> confusion also?
<q> sometimes yes
<q> if someone told a person to remember something or asked them about it
<q> then immediately confused or overloaded them
<q> that memory would be significantly weakened
<Saundra> so the model makes sense for erasing a memory
<q> indeed
<subm^> You said :
<subm^> "The task of moving the eyes rapidly fills up the short term or working memory. This causes some of the detail and emotional charge of the memory to be lost from the short term memory"  So it almost guarantees some effectiveness, correct...at least initially?
<Saundra> not sure what makes a new memory
<q> indeed subm^
<q> Saundra, to plant a memory all one has to do is use suggestive questions
<q> lawyers used suggestive questions this way to lead witnesses before it was forbidden in court
<Saundra> yes for sure
<Saundra> just not sure of the memory model
<q> it was found that the witness's memory could be so modified by the lawyer by the questions that that new memory would last the lifetime of the witness
<subm^> can the process of rapid eye movement be done prior to entry into ltm ininitially?
<q> like right after the traumatic event?
<q> people in accidents that are confused, or in some cases knocked unconscious loose the contents of their short term memory
<q> this means that the event never makes it to the long term memory
<q> these people will often have no memory at all or a very weak memory of the event itself
<q> this is common in autoaccidents
<subm^> yes q or even after the memory is brought back already blunted and is in stm before going bcd into ltm
<q> yep
<Saundra> fascinating q
<Saundra> upset that I missed a bit
<q> the memory model tend to function this way as a feature
<q> it is very easy to learn something if we connect it to a memory we already know
<q> this means that when we recall a memory the mind makes attaching new stuff or modifying that memory easier
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<q> we stick stuff into the stm to work with it
<q> then after we are done we refresh it in the ltm
<Saundra> I can't stay right now but would really like to explore more how to add or modify memories
<q> sure Saundra feel free to PM or ask anytime :)
<Saundra> smiles
<Saundra> or another discussion?
<q> sure
<q> we can do one on a friday
<q> 7pm ish or similar time
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<Saundra> smiles  we did this time for pikachu but then he couldnt come :(  I have to go to a meeting in NYC next thursday/friday :(
<q> ah
<q> maybe on a monday then
<subm^> so q, a  repeated cycle of the traumatic event moving into stm and using memory reframes or EMDR and  then back into ltm, in   cyclical manner causes more and more blunting of  memory of the event and lessening of the truma?
<sungazer> What's EDMR?
<q> indeed sungazer
<q> whoops
<q> indeed subm^
<q> EMDR sungazer is eye movement desensitization and reprocessing
<q> sungazer, here is a short video on EMDR https://youtu.be/hKrfH43srg8
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<sungazer> Thanks!
<subm^> Seems like it would have a high degree of eftectiveness then, q
 subm^ sungazer Saundra SeducingSpirit shiny_subm Spiral Stiny
<q> it has been shown to be effective in studies subm^ :)
<q> also there was even an attempt to use Tetris as a similar stm filling task
<q> it was also effective
<subm^> What is Tetris?
<q> http://www.jonahlehrer.com/blog/2015/8/24/nn93czedolouur5dx8r385wtnm6y6q
<q> ah
<q> Tetris is a falling block game
<q> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetris
<latewood> subm^ have you never played tetris
<subm^> oh  I am a block head and do not know of the game    No, latewood I have never played it.
<latewood> holy crap
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<q> ah there are free versions of tetris should you ever want to :)
<callgirl-tina> It's awful  ;-)
<latewood> I will hear no such slander about tetris
<callgirl-tina> I play tetris every time I get home from grocery shopping.
<latewood> gotta clean out your fridge callgirl-tina
<q> there are even studies linking tetris play to higher IQs
<q> of course the boost is only when you are still improving at tetris ;)
<q> no tetrising your way to genius yet
<q> lol
<Saundra> really excellent q
<subm^> When I was growing up, we played escape the dinosaurs, latewood
<q> ah
<latewood> you can, however, tetris your way into pseudo-hallucinations about falling blocks
<q> lol
<q> thanks Saundra :)