Randy Credico Interviews Roger Stone (06/25/2016)

Supplemental document for: "Theory that Roger Stone's go-between for Wikileaks was Randy Credico", link: https://wakelet.com/wake/2d352ae9-febe-44a1-a7bb-51674a2e4bf5

"You're Crazy If You're Up This Early" hosted by Randy Credico, transcript excerpt with guest Roger Stone. Broadcast date: June 25, 2016.

File link: http://www.mediafire.com/file/90h43gwa3f12ry0/wbai_160625_070000youcrazy+-+Roger+Stone.mp3

Transcript starts at 1:30 and goes to 54:23.

[opening music of "Brother, Can You Spare A Dime?" by Al Jolson]

[sound of phone ringing]

ROGER STONE
Hello?

RANDY CREDICO
Roger, can you hear us alright?

STONE
Yes, I can.

CREDICO
[talking to engineer] Good. Why don't you play the rest of the song? That's alright.

CREDICO
Alright, that was the amazing Al Jolson, from 1930. That's Yip Harburg, "Brother, Can You Spare A Dime?" I think it was made famous by Bing Crosby, but I love that version, by Al Jolson. We're going to get right to the show today, you know there's been some...been some problems here, with the transmission of the phones, but, so, bear with us today. I got an incredible guest on, someone that rarely does this station, I think I've been the only one that's had him on this station...he is an associate, past associate of Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan. I met him in nineteen- or 2002, on the Golisano campaign, the Tom Golisano for Governor, which was a maverick campaign, I must say. Some very interesting ads were run by Mr. Golisano, running against two career hacks, George Pataki and Carl McCall. But I got to meet him, you know, and you either love him or you hate him. I find him a very, very interesting individual, and probably the smartest political consultant on the scene today. So, we have him right now. Roger, are you there?

STONE
Yes indeed. How are you?

CREDICO
Thanks for getting up this early. Are you in the south, are you in New York?

STONE
I'm actually in New York, I had meetings here on Friday, I've gotten up early to do this, and I will go immediately back to bed.

CREDICO
Oh, that's-

STONE
A vigorous schedule, as Groucho Marx would say.

CREDICO
[does a really bad Groucho] You can leave in a taxi, if you can't leave in a taxi, you can leave in a huff. If you can't leave in a huff, you can leave in a minute and a half. [does Harpo] That's alright with me, but I got a partner. [stops Harpo] Did you know that tune by Jolson, had you heard it before?

STONE
Yeah, it's one of the worst. [CREDICO laughs] I always though "Danny Boy" was actually my least favorite-

CREDICO
"Sonny Boy"? You mean "Sonny Boy"?

STONE
"Sonny Boy". Pardon me.

CREDICO
Yeah, he really milks that one. I was going to play "Toot toot tootsie", or "You Made Me Love You". I grew up, I grew up in Southern California, my father brought home all of those Decca records, at one time. And then I got into Jolson, really early. He ran this huge club in Southern California...they had Ray Charles, Louis Armstrong, Bobby Darin, and so, my father was big into entertainment, he was a big fan of Jolson. And I got that into my blood, at an early age, the same way someone becomes a Yankee fan, or a Dodger fan, at an early age, the pennant's put into your hand at Little League, you're crazy about the team or the singer. And I started out in show business imitating Jolson...when did you get into Jolson?

STONE
Well, as you know, Jolson's career started in the early teens, on Broadway, he's a big star by the early twenties, because of the movie made of the story of his life, at Columbia Pictures, he basically has a late career resurgence-

CREDICO
In 1950? Is that it?

STONE
Based on the movie, the biography movie, and it is very clear, that the records have to be re-recorded, with more modern technology, and so the soundtrack for the Jolson story becomes a giant best seller.

CREDICO
I see. [inaudible] "Larry Parks". Then he does "Jolson Sings Again"...actually did a very good job. I must tell you, that, the other day, I saw "The Jolson Story" at Professor Irwin Corey's house, who watches that...he's a hundred and two years old, he still smokes reefer constantly, he's in great shape, and he loves that, "Seven Days in May", and "Judgment At Nuremberg". But he watches the "Jolson"- He says he grew up in New York in the twenties, he paid like twenty cents, or he'd sneak in, to see Jolson, at one of these theaters that he worked New York City in, Sophie Tucker...he was not a nice guy to work with, they say.

STONE
He was an egomaniac. Supposedly. But, on the other hand, he was, you know, the most prominent entertainer of his day.

CREDICO
Did you ever hear the story...about, like, this is a constant story, that Jolson, I think Milton Berle told this story...this was a story in Milton Berle's book. Did you ever read his autobiography? Milton Berle's? You there?

STONE
Yeah, I'm sorry, you broke up there for a moment.

CREDICO
Did you...Milton Berle's autobiography, I read way back in '73, a very interesting book, about him and his affair with Amy Semple McPherson, and just about anybody, he was a very- the Forrest Tucker of the comedy business...him and Guy Marks...but, uh, Jolson, Irwin told me, when he was backstage, and he had an opening act, he always had an opening act, would turn the faucet on, as hard as it could possibly go, both sides, hot and cold, to make sure that he couldn't hear the opening act get applause. Have you heard that story before?

STONE
Yeah, because...he would have the act fired from the bill. Look, he is...the Jolson story itself is extraordinary, in the sense that, Georgie Jessel is starring on The Jazz Singer on Broadway...and he is rooming with Jolson at the Sherry Netherlands Hotel. The two of them. And Jolson is in secret talks with Warner Brothers, to make the first talkie movie.

CREDICO
What..."The Jazz Singer", in 1927.

STONE
Mmmmhmmm. Exactly.

CREDICO
And?

STONE
Well, he goes behind Jessel's back. Warner Brothers- Jolson wants an enormous fee. There are no fees, because Warners is on the balls of their ass. And Jolson ultimately takes stock. In Warner Brothers. And Talking Pictures. And that, of course, makes the Warner Brothers stock worth millions of dollars. So, he not only screws his best friend Jessel, who's starring on the show on Broadway, but not considered for the movie, and: he makes millions of dollars doing it.

CREDICO
Right. He was, back in the twenties, one of the biggest stars, his career tapers off in the thirties, and he comes back in the forties...but he did a lot of radio. Right? He did a lot of radio. He was on with Bing Crosby...was this, like, in his resurgence, in his radio days, or was this prior to his resurgence?

STONE
Well, he was always trying to, for a comeback. He'd been a pretty big movie star. But his movie career was in the thirties, and his movies, as you know, are largely-

CREDICO
Fluff.

STONE
Unwatchable. Terrible actor. Very over the top. Very hammy. And he is- He is- By the forties, even though he is married to Ruby Keeler, by the forties and early fifties, his career is really over. He is considered a ham. The style of recordings from the twenties is completely archaic. And Jolson's great strength in the twenties is the power of his voice. He has enormous volume.

CREDICO
Yeah, he'd sing without a microphone. Right?

STONE
Later on, as he...as the...as the recording equipment becomes more significant, and more developed, his style is considered really passe.

CREDICO
Yeah. Was he involved in politics? Like you are? Jolson?

STONE
He's a Republican.

CREDICO
That would be yes.

STONE
He campaigned for Warren Harding.

CREDICO
No kidding.

STONE
He campaigned- He very actively campaigned for Warren Harding.

CREDICO
Yeah...Nineteen twenty four. 1920. When he beat Smith, and who else was at the head of the ticket of the Democrats in 1920? I know it wasn't Roscoe Conkling.

STONE
Franklin Roosevelt.

CREDICO
No, he was the vice presidential candidate.

STONE
No, pardon me, it was McAdoo [William Gibbs McAdoo, Jr.].

CREDICO
McAdoo. Yeah. There's a great- Gore Vidal goes through that campaign pretty well in his book, I think it's not "Empire", but "The Golden Age", maybe. About that campaign in 1920. Roger Stone, we are talking to Roger Stone. A noted, controversial - but charismatic, political operative...do you like the word "trickster" when it comes, when people call you a "trickster"?

STONE
Well, one man's dirty trick is another man's civic participation. Everything's in the eye of the beholder. I would make the case that Sidney Blumenthal-

CREDICO
Right. He's a trickster.

STONE
He's a trickster.

CREDICO
What about David Brock? David Brock is the one who works with Hillary Clinton. The one who destroyed Anita Hill, and now is basically her main hitman. Do you know David Brock?

STONE
Yeah. I feel I knew him peripherally when we were both in Washington, and he was a conservative. His book, on "The Seduction of Hillary Clinton", first Clinton book, really documents all of the corruption. The misuse of private detectives, the harassment of political enemies, the women who accuse Bill of sexual assault. All that's documented in Brock's book.

CREDICO
When did he flip?

STONE
In his second book, "Blinded to the Right" [sic - "Blinded by the Right"], he doesn't disclaim any of his earlier books. And frankly, it ["Seduction of Hillary Clinton"] remains the standard [of critical Hillary Clinton biographies]. He's about money. He's a bright fellow. He's a little behind, he's a little [inaudible] in his strategic thinking...but he is in it for the money. I don't think he has a  philosophy.

CREDICO
Yeah, well, that's what it seems. He doesn't do anything with a lot of conviction. When I saw him the other day on television, he just didn't seem really into it. But he had all the talking points down. But you have a book about the Clintons, one book, "The Clintons' War On Women", that came out a few months ago...I heard you on Van Jones's show, talk about it...and, you know, people, for some reason, and, you know, my listeners are probably divided here...not my listeners, WBAI listeners...there are a few people who like Hillary Clinton, and most people probably don't...they'll probably support the Green party candidate...whoever that is this year...or maybe Gary Johnson. You worked on Gary Johnson's campaign, we'll talk about that in a minute, when he ran in 2012.

STONE
Yes.

CREDICO
But let's stick with Hillary Clinton. She's a bad candidate. She really seems- There's a theory going around, that maybe Bill Clinton and Donald Trump are in collusion, figuring that Hillary can't beat anybody else. Except for possibly someone who would self-immolate. And so, why don't we speculate on that? Do you think- There's no chance that Trump is trying to tank his campaign to help out Hillary, I mean-

STONE
None whatsoever. First of all, he- the idea, given his ego, he would never do something like that. This is about something much bigger than partisanship. Before he got into poltics - decided to take on the country, and try to save it - he was friendly with the Clintons, he gave a hundred thousand dollars to their foundation, which of course, I would point out, gives him standing to file a lawsuit. For fraud. Perhaps in the fall. He was, you know, not unfriendly with the Clintons, but the idea that Bill has to talk him into running is an absurdity.

CREDICO
Right. No, I've heard some of these conspiracies- This is a conspiracy theory. [talking over STONE] Yeah?

STONE
I would point out that both Both Bernie Sanders and Hillary [sic, he means to say Trump here] are anti-war. And anti-trade. Trump is willing to run to the right- pardon me, to the left, of Hillary on both issues. Hillary's a neo-con.

CREDICO
Right. No. She definitely is.

STONE
She's given us the Iraq War.

CREDICO
That's probably the main reason why some of these National Review neo-cons are basically supporting Hillary right now. And have a real turn off to Trump. Guys like...who's the...who's the guy that's always on Fox...whose father...Kristol. Bill Kristol. Why is Bill Kristol so anti-Trump?

STONE
Uh, he know, Bill Kristol who, of course, supported Hubert Humphrey in 1968, comes from a long line of Democrats. Bill Kristol gave us the Iraq War. He's the number one cheerleader for the illegal, phony Iraq War, Donald Trump is not a neo-con. He is not an interventionist. He is not a globalist.

CREDICO
And they're afraid of that.

STONE
And that is why the establishment types are going out of their minds. Just going out of their minds.

CREDICO
Right now, I gotta tell you, I was on a radio show yesterday, I actually predicted Trump would win this election. I know he's behind in the polls, not that I'm supporting him, I'm not supporting him, but Hillary is such a weak candidate, and there's so much more that's going to come out about her, I mean, he must be holding back a Santa Claus bag of tricks here, size bag of tricks here, to lay onto the public, in terms of undermining Hillary's credibility. Am I right?

STONE
Mmmmhmmm.

CREDICO
So...what...why is he holding back? There are a lot of things that he could be talking about right now. It seems like he's got a lot of ammunition, that he's just waiting to sling...I think that she's really vulnerable. Why is she even running? Such a weak candidate. Why is she running, with all the dirt that's out there, and her past involvement in causes, I gotta tell you, I'm one of those Bernie Sanders supporters, no way in my lifetime would I vote for Hillary. And I know everyone who supported Bernie Sanders who feels the same way. You know, so how-

STONE
I think- Well, she's not a liberal or a progressive. She is a crony capitalist. And everything at the State Department, essentially, whether it was an arms deal, or it was an arms contract, I should say, defense contract...if you wanted to depose Gaddafi, that could all be purchased. Those things could all be purchased.

CREDICO
Well, Trump came up with a good point the other day about taking money from Saudi Arabia. Who treat gays and women in the harshest of terms. They didn't take money, the Clinton Foundation, but she's wearing jewellery, seen floating around with King Abdullah.

STONE
Yeah, and she's out there while wearing a twelve thousand dollar jacket.

CREDICO
Yeah, it looks like designer sack cloth.

STONE
The greed of the Clintons is extraordinary, these are very very greedy people.

CREDICO
What I can't figure out, is why would she expose herself to- Is somebody making her do this? That she owes favors- That you gotta run, we gotta have you up there continuing-

STONE
No, it's the Clintons' unquenchable desire for power and money. And- These are epically greedy people.

CREDICO
Right.

STONE
Epically greedy people.

CREDICO
In your book, you know, in your book, you talk about the Clintons' war on women. What is that all about? Their war on women. Is that a longstanding- Are you talking about the women that Bill Clinton had affairs with? Katherine Willey?

STONE
No, this has nothing to do with affairs, Randy. This is...the issue here is not marital infidelity. Or adultery, or girlfriends. Or mistresses. Or one night stands. The issue here is something far darker. It's sexual assault, and violence against women, and in some cases, rape. There are now dozens, of credible women, who have accused Bill Clinton of sexual misconduct...some of them more specific than others. And in the eighties, I understand this was politically incorrect, and the Clinton people were able to shut it down among the mainstream media, and suppress it. Back in those days, however, there were only three networks.

CREDICO
CBS, ABC, and NBC.

STONE
He had no cable news. Cable news was still in its infancy. And you didn't have the diversity of media that you had with cable, talk radio, and particularly, and most importantly, the internet.

CREDICO
Right. So...we're going back a long time, prior to his affair with Monica Lewinsky, which, of course, is really, a disgraceful period in his life, to be doing that. During some very heavy bombing in Kosovo. Or what was going on in Rwanda [sic, the genocide in Rwanda was years before this], he was sitting back, smoking a cigar. Disgraceful. But people are, for some reason, forgiving of him, or they'll gloss over his ill behavior. I mean, it's like, what is the big difference between what he did, and what Bill Cosby did?

STONE
There's a difference.

CREDICO
Except for the numbers.

STONE
Cosby drugged his victims. Bill overpowered and bit his victims. There's the essential difference. I think it is racist, that Jesse, pardon me, that they have not prostituted Bill [sic]. If Jesse Jackson were here, you know what he would say, Randy? He would say, "The white man campaigns, but the black man is arraigned."

CREDICO
Right. I think I can do that better than you. [the same awful Jesse Jackson imitation that everyone was doing in high school] "I beleive- The white man campaigns, uh, and the black man is arraigned, uh, I-" I'm on a show tomorrow with Jesse Jackson. Sunday, Bill Samuels' show. Did you ever work with Jesse Jackson?

STONE
Yes. I bet you don't get a lot of use for his impression very much, anymore.

CREDICO
Really, I don't. You know the thing is, at some times, he talks so fast, I don't know what he's saying. You know- [more awful Jackson] "I think that under the leadership of this country, thatwemusttalkaboutthethingsthatarefairinthis [inaudible]. WHAT." It's almost like, Charlie Bronson, [slow Charles Bronson speech] I just saw "Dirty Dozen". Charles Bronson. So. Now. With Jackson you worked on- Not his campaign in '88? You haven't worked exclusively with Republicans?

STONE
Yes, pretty much I have. As you know, I gave some advice to the Reverend Al Sharpton, on a personal basis. You should know, because you were among those who introduced me to him.

CREDICO
Two thousand and four, at Gallagher's.

STONE
As you know, I had my own motives. I wanted chaos in the Democratic Party.

CREDICO
Yeah! It worked!

STONE
And he wanted good advice.

CREDICO
So...it worked. I remember...wasn't it you who told him to bring the ax out? In Mississippi, or Alabama, tell me that story.

STONE
I would never take credit for that.

CREDICO
Well, tell me the story. Let's say it was you.

STONE
He was speaking at an NAACP Convention.

CREDICO
Lester Maddox.

STONE
The convention was the day after Lester Maddox died. And therefore, he used the ax handle to symbolize, you know, the opposition.

CREDICO
I see. And then, what about the debate with Howard Dean? That he had, and he brought up the fact that Howard Dean had very few, if any, African Americans or Latinos in his administration. Sharpton brought that up, and Dean was completely petrified, caught off guard. Wasn't that your recommendation? I mean, it seems like you had something to do with that.

STONE
Well, I mean...as you know, there were very, very low employment numbers among minority, African Americans, in the Vermont government. And it just kinda proved, that the guy was a regional candidate, at best.

CREDICO
Yeah. Yeah, he definitely was a...now he's a big Hillary person. You would think, being from Vermont, and this image that he has, of being a renaissance progressive, in 2004, all of the Dean-iacs, you'd think he would be supporting Bernie Sanders...but he must be on the gravy train as well.

STONE
Yeah, I think he wants a cabinet job, and look, a lot of people in the Democratic party are for Hillary because they have to be.

CREDICO
Who is this guy, that's on-

STONE
The Clintons are known to be vindictive, and no one wants to take that chance.

CREDICO
-this guy, Sellars [Bakari Sellars] that's on. The South Carolina ex-state senator...that's a big Clinton supporter? Forgot his first name, but he's the former senator, Sellars, he's always on CNN, along with _Ana Navarro_, one of your favorites. Ana Navarro.

STONE
[becomes obvious here how very bored he is by this interview] Not one of my favorites.

CREDICO
Yeah. You know her from Florida? Ana Navarro?

STONE
[barely audible] Mmmmhmmm.

CREDICO
What do you think of her?

STONE
She's a jerk. I mean, look, there's no point to beat a dead horse here. I criticized her for a lack of political experience...I don't understand why CNN believe she's qualified to opine, but I'm not going to beat on her today, because we have more important things to do.

CREDICO
Yes, I want to talk about- I want to get back to Trump here...about, what is the strategy here, this point out for him. For Trump. He seems to have, he got rid of Corey Lewandowski...did you endorse that firing?

STONE
Uh, yes, I did. Yes, I thought that was long overdue.

CREDICO
Obviously you know Corey Lewandowski. Difficult guy to get along with?

STONE
Well, he just doesn't have a lot of experience in politics, but he was the right campaign manager for Trump at that time, because Trump is really his own strategist.

CREDICO
And-

STONE
Corey was never Trump's strategist, Trump was Trump's strategist.

CREDICO
But his new guy, who's really running the show, Manafort. You know Manafort, you had an office in D.C. with Manafort [they were part of the same notorious lobbying firm, Black Manafort Stone & Kelley, also known as BMS&K, described in the seminal Spy piece, "Publicists of the Damned" by Art Levine, now on google books archive: http://books.google.ca/books?id=qnVC8yS4N_AC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA52#v=onepage&q&f=false] Is he a capable campaign manager?

STONE
Very capable. Look, they're playing catch-up ball, they have a lot of challenges, but...I do think the election will alway remain competitive-

CREDICO
Do you think he can win?

STONE
Yeah, he can most definitely win, because he continues to run competitively, in a number of key states. As long as he stays in range, this is going to get slugged out in October.

CREDICO
Right. Some people say he can't raise any money, but I don't even see the need to raise money...yesterday, they covered that entire golf course renovation scene in Scotland...that wouldn't happen to anybody else. There's something about him that the cameras _like_, he obviously sells soap, and he gets the free media. Why spend money on ads? Although the ads I've seen, against Hillary and Bill, seem to be very effective. By these...Super PACs. I don't know who's funding Super PACs.

STONE
I think they have been. They certainly can be.

CREDICO
But, let's say...you worked in 2012 on Gary Johnson's campaign...chief strategist on his campaign. Because you really are a libertarian.

STONE
I like Gary Johnson, I have a huge affection for him, he's a great guy, and he ran a valued campaign. I was a little surprised at the CNN Libertarian Town Hall, that he seemed to depart libertarian orthodoxy on a few issues...but...

CREDICO
How was that, by the way? I couldn't see it.

STONE
I thought it was very good. I think the mistake people make, is believing that they're going to take, that all of his votes are going to come from the Republicans. From Trump. _Which is not the case_.

CREDICO
Well, you know about third party candidacies...they've had an effect on campaigns...I was talking, the other day, with Eric Foner, the historian from Columbia, about the 1844 election, 1848 election...1844, which went to Polk, who ran against Henry Clay, there was somebody in the Liberty party, that got enough...New York was a swing state...had forty seven electoral votes, electoral college votes. And because of his involvement, the guy from Michigan, it swung the state, to a Southerner. To Polk. And beat out Clay. Who was another southerner. But he was against the war in Mexico, and it had the opposite effect. [STONE groans or sighs in the background] He was against the expansion of slavery through the war in Mexico, and so, Clay lost that election. In 1844. All because of the Liberty party, and then in 1848, the same thing happened, the Liberty party, Martin Van Buren jumps in, and he wins four states, key states, he's only on seventeen state ballots, but enough to swing the election to Andrew Taylor. So, there is precedent for a third party to have an effect in the state of New York. Even the state of New York which has, what, twenty seven delegates? Or electoral votes?

STONE
That's absolutely true, although if you look at the data from three years ago, it appeared that the Johnson Libertarian ticket got most of its votes almost evenly split between Romney and Obama.

CREDICO
Where do the Green party in New York State - they are fourth on the ballot, mind you. Fourth on the ballot. Do the Sanders voters go there? Or do they go to Gary Johnson? Most likely, to- Not to Hillary, I can't- Core constituency. And they had their own. The Green party would be fourth, which is a significant number. They're in front of the Working Families Party, which is not working families or a party. I don't know what it is. Cash machine for a couple of executives there. But the Green party is a grass roots party, I'm not thrilled with, what seems to be the presumptive nominee...they're going to have their convention after the November election, I think...they're not going to have their convention until the end of August. They might as well have it next year. But I guess that it's about getting matching funds there. So, what- New York could actually go to Donald Trump, if the Green party has some momentum among the Sanders...

STONE
As you know, there is some precedent for that...because the state went for Ronald Reagan, after John Anderson peeled off liberal votes, by having the Liberal party nomination. Which, of course, had been-

CREDICO
How did he get that?

STONE
-put into motion by...

CREDICO
Ray Harding.

STONE
[answering question "How did he get that?"] Operatives toward the Reagan campaign had certain political contacts in New York state which made that possible.

CREDICO
Would that be you?

STONE
Uh, yes.

CREDICO
Oh, so you got...you were working on the Reagan campaign, Liberal party Ray Harding got, gave the nomination to Anderson, and that was enough to swing...the same thing to Rudy Giuliani. In 1993. Giuliani won that race-

STONE
Yes indeed.

CREDICO
-because of Ray Harding. Ray Harding was a big player. In New York state politics, and somebody pulled the rug out from under him in 2002, a fellow by the name of Andrew Cuomo, which I think was, very ungracious, move by Andrew Cuomo, to pull out of that race, and sink the Liberal party, which is no more of a party than the Working Families Party, I would say. I'd really say it's like a patronage party. A patronage mill. As you would call it. Am I right?

STONE
Yes, I think that's-

CREDICO
So, what was it like-

STONE
Randy- [pause] Go ahead.

CREDICO
You're getting- So, what was it like...So, John Anderson swings the election, but he was going to win anyway. [does the standard nightclub Reagan impression you see on 1980s TV] Reagan was going to win with or without, but they didn't know that. They didn't know he was going to win. [stops impression] Whose idea was it, for Reagan to make that big move in New Hampshire? Against Bush? About [nightclub Reagan] "I paid for this micro, Mr. Bream." [stops impression] Or whatever his name was. Whose idea was that? Was that Reagan's from the very outset?

STONE
I always thought John Sears plotted the ambush of George Bush...remember Bush won the Iowa caucuses.

CREDICO
Right.

STONE
There was...There was very substantial momentum for Bush, and that needed to be offset in New Hampshire.

CREDICO
What about the...so, he goes on...that's the beginning of the end of Bush and...I've seen some documentaries, "The Eighties" on CNN, but they don't talk too much about the so-called "October Surprise". Is that an overblown conspiracy, that Reagan-

STONE
Nah, actually...this is covered in my book, "Jeb and the Bush Crime Family", there's no question that Bill Casey and-

CREDICO
William Casey, the former CIA Director.

STONE
-are in touch with certain elements of the, of the-

CREDICO
Iranian government.

STONE
Iranian government, to try to get a better deal.

CREDICO
I see. So what the better deal was, was to hold them back, hold back the hostages. You're talking about 1980? Right? You're talking about 1980?

STONE
Mmmmmm.

CREDICO
And so, they hold back...Casey, long time, very wily CIA operative, who died...conveniently during the Iran-Contra hearings...was that a suicide?

STONE
Ah, I think it was...no, I think he had a brain hemmorrhage. But, look, as I said in my book on the Bushes...they were deeply involved in the illegal financing of the Contras, by trafficking millions of dollars worth of cocaine into the United States, and selling out urban centers . They had a willing hand with a certain William Jefferson Clinton-

CREDICO
How did that work out? Why don't you just lay that out, then. How did that happen. How did that start out. The guy from the San Jose Mercury. Who wrote the stories on it. Gary Webb. Are you- So, what he said...in the series of articles and his book, is basically true? You use some of his research?

STONE
Yes, I think there's some really excellent reporting, but his story gets spiked when Roger Morris writes his piece for the Washington Post. The Central Intelligence Agency and Caspar Weinberger and Bill Casey are- have an off the books operation, of which Vice President George Bush is chairman of the task force, and they are moving this cocaine in and out of Mena, Arkansas. First they try to do it through Texas. And the Texas state government won't allow it. Then they try to move it through Louisiana...I think it's Louisiana first, and then Texas. And then: they ultimately find a small state governor, Bill Clinton, and Dan Lassiter, who is an associate of Clinton's...later goes to prison on a drug charge. He becomes a partner in the Mena cartel. Assuming he's taking Bill Clinton's piece.

CREDICO
So Clinton is directly hands-on?

STONE
-it has been called fantasy. None of it is fantasy.

CREDICO
Yeah.

STONE
The legendary drug pilot, Barry Seal, who is depicted in a new movie by Tom Hanks [sic - it's Tom Cruise, and the movie is "American Made" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3532216/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1]...and an old movie with Kurt Russell, I believe [there is no such movie with Russell; he may mean "Doublecrossed", with Dennis Hopper as Barry Seal; link: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0101766/ ]. Also comes up as a character in the new TV show "Narcos".

CREDICO
Right. Barry Seal. Barry Seal, I think, died in Florida, was it? Did he-

STONE
Louisiana. He was gunned down in the streets.

CREDICO
I see. And who was responsible for that killing, do you think? Or do I want to know?

STONE
Actually, I think George Bush and Oliver North were responsible for that killing.

CREDICO
Because he knew too much.

STONE
There were three Columbian nationals arrested, and they all plead at trial that they were working for the U.S. government, that they were being run by a private army colonel. An army colonel who is...Oliver North.

CREDICO
What's Clinton's role in all of this? Bill Clinton? And his wife was, of course, in the blind?

STONE
The state police, of course, have to look the other way. They are well aware of the fact that drugs have been brought through Mena.

CREDICO
And Bill Clinton was definitely aware of this.

STONE
Yes.

CREDICO
What's he going to do, he's in a small state, a small town, small time governor, what's he going to do, go against the federal government? Or some CIA-

STONE
Well, the governors of Texas and Louisiana chose not to co-operate. So, it was...look, Randy, you of all people, know they were illegally financing the Nicaraguan contras [one of those definitely involved in funding the contras at this time was Stone, through his wife, Ann Stone; Associated Press article "North Appearance Spurs Contra Fund-Raising, Spokeswoman Says" http://www.apnewsarchive.com/1987/North-Appearance-Spurs-Contra-Fund-Raising-Spokeswoman-Says-With-AM-US-Iran-Contra-Rdp-Bjt/id-5379fa37946f438ce4d5d6d799f9f039], after the-

CREDICO
After the Boland Amendment.

STONE
-funds were cut off by the Boland Amendment.

CREDICO
What's Bush's role in the- And why? What's the motivation for the Noriega, the invasion of Panama? The real motivation.

STONE
It's hard to say...we made Noreiga, Noreiga is a U.S. asset.

CREDICO
Right. Alright, so they go in there. They clobber him, he goes into the archdiocese, the house in Panama City, next thing you know, he's flown to Florida...and he's tried, convicted, and he seems to still be in prison, and, of course, he doesn't say a thing...then they take him to France...he must know a lot.

STONE
Yes, I think so.

CREDICO
I guess they wanted to quiet him down, rather than just assassinate him...which I think was their main goal, when they went to the archdiocese residence, that saved him. From being assassinated. And so then they had to try him, and he couldn't bring up a defense, I'm sure the defense attorneys didn't want to bring up CIA collusion here...and, you know, I don't know...where is he, these days? Noriega.

STONE
Ah...that's an excellent question. Is he even still alive? I'm uncertain.

CREDICO
Yeah...but I'm sure he doesn't have a mouthpiece these days, against the CIA. He's not talking. Maybe they did a lobotomy. A Randall McMurphy [character from One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest]. We're talking to Roger Stone...Roger, we're just going to play a little bit of this, you talked about "The Jazz Singer"...this, for thirty or forty seconds...this is the original "Jazz Singer"...do we have that cued up? We'll be right back, in half a minute.

STONE
I gotta tell you, I just got to LaGuardia, and I am low on batteries, so...

CREDICO
Alright-

STONE
...you might lose me.

CREDICO
-we should just continue, then. We'll just continue. This'll be thirty or forty seconds. Just play this. Thirty or forty seconds. We'll probably lose you. We don't have that much time left. I thought maybe you might want to hear it.

["Blue Skies" performed by Al Jolson plays]

CREDICO
Alright, that is from "The Jazz Singer", 1927. First talkie. That was actually the first talkie. Roger Stone's favorite entertainer. And one of mine. Al Jolson. How's the batteries, Roger?

STONE
We got a few more minutes here, I think, hopefully.

CREDICO
I want to get to Nixon, now. I definitely want to- When you got involved with Nixon, were you just out of college? And where did you go to school? By the way.

STONE
Actually, I got involved with Nixon when I was still in high school. I didn't graduate from high school until 1970. So, in 1956, I wrote a letter...[seems distracted by something]

CREDICO
To Nixon?

STONE
Yeah...urging him, first of all, pointing out that the 1960 election had been ignominiously stolen from him...and secondarily, urging him to run again. And of course, years later, they contacted me...when Nixon made his great comeback.

CREDICO
In 1968. [does Nixon} He said, "Won't have Nixon to kick around anymore." [stops] And so, you met him...they brought you in to the...

STONE
I wrote him a letter. Told him he should run again. They kept it on file. A few years later they contacted me. And I was hired initially as a driver.

CREDICO
I see. And so-

STONE
And then I became the state co-ordinator for Youth For Nixon in Connecticut. In 1968. And John Davis Lodge, the movie actor / diplomat, brother of Henry Cabot Lodge, former congressman, former governor of Connecticut, great pal of Dick Nixon's, was the chairman of the Connecticut Nixon campaign. He arranged for me to get an internship at the Nixon White House.

CREDICO
I see, and how- What year was that, Roger?

STONE
I met Pat Buchanan, and Bill Safire, H.R. "Bob" Haldeman...you know, it occurred to me, Corey Lewandowski is Bob Haldeman without the charm.

CREDICO
He's got the same haircut. Right?

STONE
You noticed that.

CREDICO
He's got the same haircut. What did you think of Bob Haldeman? Did you know him well?

STONE
Um, I never really had any problems with Haldeman. Haldeman was a prick, but he was that way because that's the way Nixon wanted him to be.

CREDICO
Right.

STONE
He really was trying to protect Nixon's best interests. But: contrast him with John Ehrlichman. The other half of the so-called "Berlin Wall" [a nickname given to Ehrlichman and Haldeman, who jointly protected access to the president]. Who I think John Mitchell is quoted as saying, "that was one sneaky son of a bitch."

CREDICO
Right. Well, he had some interesting people around him. Nixon. You saw the Oliver Stone movie...how factual is the Oliver Stone bio on Nixon?

STONE
Stone is closer to the truth than people realize. Because, essentially, it is documented that Nixon attends a reception at a home of Clint Murchison senior, on the eve of the Kennedy assassination. Literally, on the 21st. And while that is true...that meeting is sometimes conflated with a meeting Lyndon Johnson had at the same ranch, after midnight. Which I assert in my book, for a number of reasons, is where they put the final touches on the plan to kill JFK. Nixon, some on the conspiracy circuit...think Nixon had prior knowledge of the murder of Kennedy. That he was quote unquote "in on it"...the problem with that, is that by 1962, 1963, he's lost the governorship of- of-

CREDICO
California.

STONE
California. He is- The Democrats are firmly in control of all branches of government, and there is nothing he can get for you, or that he controls. Not the CIA, not the Pentagon, not our intelligence systems, not the gangsters in Texas...so, I mean, it's an absurdity, although it is true, the death of Kennedy is the only thing that allows the rise of the- essentially the resurrection of Richard Nixon. If that had not happened, Johnson would have never been president...

CREDICO
And Nixon-

STONE
Kennedy would probably have been re-elected, Nixon would have sat out 1964 either way...because he knew he couldn't beat Kennedy. He also knew he couldn't beat Goldwater. So he figured he would let Goldwater have the nomination. He would go out and campaign very hard for Goldwater to get gratitude...

CREDICO
Curry favor.

STONE
Curry favor among the...Republican party regulars. Conservatives. And of course, that strategy paid off handsomely.

CREDICO
What was the mistake for Humphrey in '68? Was it because he never came out against the war?

STONE
Well...Humphrey came very close to becoming president. I mean, he inherited a flaccid party. Of course, he was nominated without running in any primary, even though Kennedy and Senator Gene McCarthy had run, and won, primaries. Humphrey was essentially forced onto the party by Lyndon Johnson, and then an epic tug of war began, where, Humphrey's advisors were urging him to denounce the war...and John Connally was saying, right up to the Democratic Convention, if you don't support the president on the war, I'm going to put Johnson's name in nomination. Which would have been pandemonium in Chicago.

CREDICO
Why- Why-

STONE
Pandemonium.

CREDICO
Why did Nixon and Johnson, I mean, you go back to Eisenhower, about the military industrial complex...is that the reason why these guys were afraid to get away? Or is it because of this ideological anti-communism? What's the real motivation for them to stay in an unpopular war? In '68, all the way to '73? Nixon.

STONE
Well, first of all, I argue with the central premise, of Oliver Stone's movie...it's a great movie, and I like Oliver Stone, we've become friendly...he's read my book on the Kennedy assassination, "The Man Who Killed Kennedy: The Case Against LBJ".

CREDICO
Yes.

STONE
New York Times bestseller. And he now, he told me, wished he addressed Johnson's role a little more fully in the movie. But-

CREDICO
Well, I want you to talk about that.

STONE
You have the military industrial complex, the Pentagon boys, and the defense contractors, it's not Vietnam that they're all toked up about, it's Cuba. They're still angry about the Bay of Pigs, because they had an elaborate plan to take Castro out, and of course, Kennedy, in their view, has botched that. Kennedy's view is that he was oversold the plan, and he never approved the final step of it. That being the air cover of brave Cuban freedom fighters storming the beach, and getting cut down.

CREDICO
Right. Do you think they actually could have overtaken the island with air cover, there weren't that many soldiers that were part of-

STONE
Their entire plan was ridiculous. From start to finish.

CREDICO
There was no way they were going to win.

STONE
It was never going to work.

CREDICO
Yeah. You had a ragtag, what, group of a couple of hundred exiles that went down there, and you got a wealth of fortified Cuban coastline. And there was no chance, even with air cover, they could possibly take over that government.

STONE
I agree.

CREDICO
And so...but: since, after that, what's the motivation for the big boys to go after Kennedy and Johnson goes along with it...is that your position?

STONE
[Oliver] Stone is not entirely wrong...in other words, he's right that Vietnam is a backdoor, because the Pentagon, the congressional defense institution, the defense contractors, who make a fortune off the war later...are torked off about both the CIA and the...pardon me, torked up about both Vietnam and Cuba. But, also remember, as the terrific book I talked about, Dr. Feelgood...by 1953, Jack Kennedy is getting regular injections of methamphetamine from this rogue doctor. And I am- He takes it because it helps his back, it helps his mobility...course it also kicks his sex drive into high gear. It explains why he is deflowering a White House intern, when he's got a bad back, and he is in his forties. But, uh, so I am convinced that the military industrial types knew this, because the Secret Service certainly knew it, it's in their reports...and therefore, they deluded [sic, not deluded, he intends to say justified] themselves by saying "Good god! The man is a drug addict!" You know, he might give the Russians everything. So, this is a classic case of everybody in the plot having their own motive. The Central Intelligence Agency's motive is to get Vietnam and Cuba; the mob's motive is the double cross of the mob by Jack and Bobby Kennedy, who have received a million dollars in funding from the Chicago mob, and help steal votes in Chicago; and, in return, they [the Kennedys] try to put Carlos Marcello, Santo Trafficante, two of the biggest gangsters of the day, in prison. It's a total double cross. And, of course, big Texas oil, they're involved because Jack Kennedy is trying to repeal the oil depletion allowance which would cost them millions of dollars.

CREDICO
Not just millions, hundreds of millions. Right?

STONE
Hundreds of millions.

CREDICO
So, Johnson is- Johnson is in on this in your book, the bestseller, "The Man Behind". It's called "The Man Behind...the Death of John F. Kennedy" [sic]. How did Johnson get involved? From the very outset?

STONE
Well, I think Johnson has the most acute motive because he knows that Robert Kennedy is on his trail in both the Bobby Baker and Billie Sol Estes scandals, two of the biggest of the day, and he knows that Johnson, pardon me, Johnson knows that Kennedy intends to dump him from the ticket, and put him in jail. In fact, Johnson knows that Life magazine has nine investigative reporters in Texas, and they have a December 1st Life magazine cover issue on the corruption and wealth of Lyndon Johnson. He also knows that Drew Pearson, who's probably the most influential columnist of his day, has written a column for November 23rd, which charges Johnson with taking a bribe in the CFX General Dynamics scandal. That story was spiked when John Kennedy was shot.

CREDICO
No kidding. So, you take all of these different circumstances and you draw the conclusion that Johnson...

STONE
Well, there's more- there's a bit more to it than that, but-

CREDICO
What's the biggest piece of evidence? Biggest evidence.

STONE
I look at this from the point of view of motive, means, and opportunity.

CREDICO
Right.

STONE
That's his motive. Personally, he's always power hungry, he hates the Kennedys, they've always treated him like garbage. He knows the noose is tightening around his neck. He has killed before, in the case of Henry Marshall, the U.S. Agriculture Department Agent, who's investigating the Billie Sol Estes scandal. Who is miraculously [sic] commits suicide by shooting himself eight times in the head with a bolt action rifle. Which is very hard to do. [CREDICO laughs] Even in Texas. And Johnson also controls the means. Meaning, in 1963, the murder is a state crime. Not a federal crime. And therefore the Dallas District Attorney and the Dallas Police Department completely and totally control the-

CREDICO
-that would be a federal crime, this investigation. That would be a federal crime today. But back then, it was in the hands of the state attorney general, or the-

STONE
That is correct.

CREDICO
-Dallas District Attorney, right? That's the way it was treated. He was tried- Ruby was tried in a state court. That was so, none of this stuff was considered federal conspiracy, it was just...all state. And he controlled the entire state. Johnson. You gotta read the book. What's the name of it, Roger?

STONE
"The Man Who Killed Kennedy: The Case Against LBJ".

CREDICO
Alright. And then you got the book on the Clintons, which is fascinating. I've read. "The Clintons' War on Women".

STONE
Every Bernie Sanders supporter should read this book.

CREDICO
And you can get that at Amazon? Go to Amazon...Roger Stone, you've got other books...the Bush crime family, at Barnes & Noble. You know, you go and pick up these books, or just go on-line, right? Is there, like, a web site, for you, Roger?

STONE
You can go to Roger Stone dot com. And they're all available there.

CREDICO
All available at Roger Stone or the Stone Zone. Is it the Stone Zone, or Roger Stone dot com?

STONE
Stone zone dot com. You can go to Stone zone dot com, they're available there also, but you get a better round-up of the books at Roger Stone dot com.

CREDICO
Roger Stone dot com. Go there, if you want to check out one of these books. It's a great book...the book on Johnson. And what did, what did Robert Caro think of your book? Hello? Well, we lost him. Alright. That was Roger Stone. He ran out of gas. His phone dead.