[12:39 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: what are tests to you two
[12:39 AM] Finchinator: SS, less so
[12:39 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: i am interested in this
[12:39 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: what is a suspect test's purpose
[12:40 AM] z0mog: test = ban!!!!
[12:40 AM] z0mog: :retardedpepe~1:
[12:40 AM] eOut: a test = ban
[12:40 AM] eOut: yes
[12:40 AM] eOut: because people aren't making up their minds in the two weeks of a test
[12:40 AM] eOut: a test is a conclusion based on all the metas leading up to that point
[12:40 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: so thats the problem we have then
[12:40 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: thats an interesting pt
[12:40 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: tests are worthless
[12:40 AM] eOut: thanks chlorinedrinker2
[12:40 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: with old metas i feel like theres room for a slower suspect process
[12:40 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: because putting a mon up for a test
[12:40 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: is the same as putting them up for a ban
[12:40 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: in the minds of the council
[12:40 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: i am not saying this is right or wrong
[12:41 AM] eOut: well, it is; that's how I view it
[12:41 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: i am saying thats apparently the thought process you have
[12:41 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: so why are we wasting time with tests then
[12:41 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: if the council only puts up tests on shit SO polarizing
[12:41 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: theyre sure it will be banned
[12:41 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: why not ban it without the waste of fucking time
[12:41 AM] eOut: it's a formality from 2006
[12:41 AM] z0mog: maybe there would be more no ban resulting tests if questionable things would be tested ever
[12:41 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: its a formality if you think of it as test = ban
[12:41 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: personally i dont see it that way
[12:41 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: but since you see it that way
[12:41 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: and tests only occur on extreme shit
[12:41 AM] z0mog: idk why we have to wait for a tier to have a 100% usage type threat before waiting for any action
[12:42 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: then its a self fulfilling prophecy
[12:42 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: im wondering how much we lose by banning things more on the edge but less outright broken
[12:42 AM] ABR: well rey
[12:42 AM] ABR: im ok w only council tests
[12:42 AM] ABR: but.
[12:42 AM] ABR: gl convincing everyone
[12:42 AM] ABR: on that
[12:42 AM] ABR: council votes*
[12:42 AM] z0mog: only council tests so nothing changes
[12:42 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: i mean thats literally
[12:42 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: whats happening right now
[12:42 AM] Finchinator: If I had the approval to make everything council votes
[12:42 AM] z0mog: because 6 people represent 6000
[12:42 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: and thats not what I
[12:42 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: personally
[12:42 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: want
[12:42 AM] Finchinator: Then I’d be overjoyed
[12:42 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: what i and others seem to wan
[12:42 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: t
[12:42 AM] Rewer: the lack of quick ban announcements is making me moody i got shivers in booty im feeling like doing something crudy arent they doing their duty i thought they the goats truly but maybe we gotta add fooly cooly
[12:42 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: is more liberal tests
[12:42 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: you dont need to be sure a mon is stupid broken to test it
[12:43 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: you can test it and if the community feels its fine at large
[12:43 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: then thats fine
[12:43 AM] ami:

[12:43 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: at least now we got proof it is
[12:43 AM] Finchinator: @Rewer if I don’t quickban moody does that lower my chances of being a ruiner
[12:43 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: or rather than proof
[12:43 AM] ChlorineDrinker2:

[12:43 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: confirmation
[12:43 AM] Rewer: depends
[12:43 AM] ABR: i dont think a 2 week suspect makes a diff
[12:43 AM] ABR: i agree w eo
[12:43 AM] z0mog: @Rewer dont buy any council members
[12:43 AM] z0mog: gotta keep ur chat at 100 iq
[12:43 AM] ABR: few ppls minds arent already made up
[12:43 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: uhhh idk
[12:43 AM] yeezyknows: thats a cursed list @ami
[12:43 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: ive seen so many dudes swayed
[12:43 AM] yeezyknows: blaze is rly good
[12:43 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: in 2 weeks
[12:43 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: i feel like suspect tests have a lot of potential
[12:43 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: during dynamax test
[12:44 AM] [Dynamax Hater] Evidith: @Rewer if for some ungodly reason RU gets Moody I am banning it in your name
[12:44 AM] ABR: .
[12:44 AM] ABR: wdym
[12:44 AM] ABR: who wasntbanning dynamax
[12:44 AM] ABR: and now is
[12:44 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: you literally posted
[12:44 AM] ABR: or the reverse
[12:44 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: abuot it
[12:44 AM] Rewer: evigaro a real one
[12:44 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: charmflash too
[12:44 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: two council members
[12:44 AM] ABR: i didnt say absolutely keep it
[12:44 AM] ABR: tho
[12:44 AM] ABR: i just said
[12:44 AM] ABR: be cautious
[12:44 AM] Finchinator: My entire council was in favor of banning before the test started
[12:44 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: no but you went from "hmmm im not sure" to "hmm okay this needs to go"
[12:44 AM] ABR: its a big decision
[12:44 AM] ABR: ??
[12:44 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: so minds do change
[12:44 AM] Finchinator: We just didn’t wanna rush shit
[12:44 AM] ABR: no
[12:45 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: im just worried that it would come down to things like bad players being swayed bc they like tournament player x more than tournament player y so respect their opinion more
[12:45 AM] eOut: it's not like the suspect test was special in helping him formulate his opinion
[12:45 AM] ABR: thats making up my mind
[12:45 AM] eOut: any two weeks of play would've donoe that
[12:45 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: or how about this
[12:45 AM] ABR: i formulated it before the test happen
[12:45 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: lets change how suspect tests work
[12:45 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: if you think a suspect makes no difference as it is
[12:50 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: so lets try a new meta
[12:50 AM] Mannat: when we retested aegi
[12:50 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: when i participated in suspects and was an informed player
[12:50 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: give people a new thing to experiment with
[12:50 AM] ABR: dude
[12:50 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: that is nothing like
[12:50 AM] Mannat: ppl formed their opinions
[12:50 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: the years experience they have
[12:50 AM] Mannat: before playing the aegi ladder
[12:50 AM] Mannat: and ran with them
[12:50 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: maybe that changes things
[12:50 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: i was frustrated bc i felt like the long posts i wrote up didn't actually change anyone's minds
[12:50 AM] ABR: a 2 week old meta is meaningless
[12:50 AM] Mannat: regardless of how laddering went
[12:50 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: okay, make it longer
[12:51 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: 3 weeks whatever, 4 weeks idc
[12:51 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: for controversial shit
[12:51 AM] Mannat: Isn't the issue here that tests take too long?
[12:51 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: people just had their predetermined opinions and voted based on them
[12:51 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: IDK do something
[12:51 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: no the issue here is that there is a fuckton of inaction
[12:51 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: i dont know what the solution is
[12:51 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: regarding controversial stuff
[12:51 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: here jerk off solution
[12:51 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: if the whole council agrees it should be banned
[12:51 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: its a 2 week test
[12:51 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: if the council is divided
[12:51 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: its a 4 week test with the mon banned
[12:51 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: so ppl have a month to experiment
[12:51 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: im not saying its perfect nor im saying its the way to go
[12:51 AM] ABR: what if they just
[12:51 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: im saying we should strive to find something BETTER
[12:51 AM] ABR: get reqs in a day.
[12:52 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: than what we have right now
[12:52 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: whats "divided"
[12:52 AM] ABR: and dont play for 4 weeks
[12:52 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: does that mean like
[12:52 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: make reqs harder
[12:52 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: simple
[12:52 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: majority of council?
[12:52 AM] Mannat: you can just
[12:52 AM] Mannat: increase the game limit
[12:52 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: bc if 1 council guy wants a suspect thats different from 5/6 or whatever
[12:52 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: increase game limit while lowering the ELO
[12:52 AM] Mannat: to account for the longer period of time
[12:52 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: forces people to play more games
[12:52 AM] Mannat: nah keep the gxe the same
[12:52 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: you can define it as
[12:52 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: supermajorty
[12:52 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: @ChlorineDrinker2
[12:52 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: idk thats semantics
[12:52 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: what im trying to convey here
[12:52 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: is we should find a better way than this
[12:52 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: bcuz this shits not working in the eyes of a LOT of people
[12:53 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: and if you want a thread ok lets make a thread about it so its on the forums and ppl can comment
[12:53 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: maybe we are just a loud minority
[12:53 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: but like
[12:53 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: this should be discussed
[12:53 AM] Mannat: I think the entirety of joey's thread during gen 7 kinda shows that the community wants more frequent testing
[12:53 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: yes im sure of it too mannat
[12:53 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: more threads are always nice
[12:53 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: i wont be the one to post it but ill be excited if it does go up
[12:54 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: if theres people in the council that literally see
[12:54 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: our tiering process
[12:54 AM] Valentine: If the majority was large enough, or cared enough, the council would have been forced to take action
12:54 AM] Mannat: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/state-of-sun-moon-ou.3654499/ like the council replied to this more or less w "we don't think it's necessarily broken/we're on the fence so it won't get tested"
Smogon Forums
State of Sun & Moon OU
Hey there, I’d like to discuss the current state of SM OU. It’s no secret that there are numerous complaints about the imbalance in the current metagame. There’s simply too much to cover and too many mons that force building to be an absolute nightmare. I believe that t...
[12:54 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: as a formality that makes no difference
[12:54 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: then we have a big fucking problem dont we
[12:54 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: bcuz as it stands we have a council
[12:54 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: that decides whats banned and what isnt
[12:54 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: its as if the test doesnt exist
[12:54 AM] samy0w: :thinking:
[12:54 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: its "community driven" but the community has no say literally
[12:54 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: suspect tests are the councils way of "taking action" while maintaining good pr
[12:55 AM] Valentine: Isn’t the purpose of a council to decide what is allowed in a tier
[12:55 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: not really no
[12:55 AM] PDC: the council didn't reply shit mannat
[12:55 AM] Mannat: It's moreso to guide the tiering process
[12:55 AM] Mannat: rather than control it entirely
[12:55 AM] Mannat: psure.
[12:55 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: the council doesnt decide whats in and what isnt
[12:55 AM] PDC: good thing we ruined sm
[12:55 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: the community "does"
[12:55 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: except in this situation
[12:55 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: as said by eo
[12:55 AM] Christo: smogon rly a government
[12:55 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: the community doesnt do shit
[12:55 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: it "does" but it makes no difference
[12:55 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: since the only community input we give is on tests that are so lopsided towards ban in the eyes of the council
[12:56 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: that they might as well be making the decisions themselves without tests
[12:56 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: and i see that as a problem
[12:56 AM] Valentine: Propose a better system
[12:56 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: i literally am
[12:56 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: read up
[12:56 AM] Mannat: When's the last time we had a test that was voted in the negative
[12:56 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: holy fkc
[12:56 AM] Mannat: SM Dugtrio?
[12:56 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: sm dugtrio thanks to yours truly
[12:56 AM] Mannat: and only because people wanted arena trap instead
[12:56 AM] Mannat: so its not like that's the real reason
[12:56 AM] Valentine: You’re saying add more time to the tiering process???
[12:56 AM] Finchinator: SM dug, ORAS mmeta
[12:56 AM] Finchinator: both come to mind
[12:56 AM] Valentine: When SPL is around the corner
[12:56 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: dug was bc it was too early and people saw others as more problematic probably
[12:56 AM] Mannat: does oras aegi count
[12:56 AM] Mannat: cuz the vote was to drop it
[12:56 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: im saying add more time to the tiering process if it means SOMETHING IS BEING DONE
[12:57 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: something >>>>>>>> nothing
[12:57 AM] Valentine: There’s literally a suspect going on
[12:57 AM] Valentine: Right now
[12:57 AM] Valentine: How is that nothing
[12:57 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: valentine you havent
[12:57 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: kept up
[12:57 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: obv there are issues with both putting all power in the council and putting all of it in the community
[12:57 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: with the conversation have you
[12:57 AM] Valentine: I’ve read every message
[12:57 AM] Mannat: Rey's moreso warning us against making the same mistakes we made during gen 7
[12:57 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: then whats not clear to you
[12:57 AM] Mannat: ahead of time
[12:57 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: im not talking right now
[12:57 AM] ABR: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/state-of-sun-moon-ou.3654499/#post-8235425
Smogon Forums
State of Sun & Moon OU
Hey there, I’d like to discuss the current state of SM OU. It’s no secret that there are numerous complaints about the imbalance in the current metagame. There’s simply too much to cover and too many mons that force building to be an absolute nightmare. I believe that t...
[12:57 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: im talking this generation
[12:57 AM] Mannat: than criticizing this specific subject
[12:57 AM] ABR: fwiw rey
[12:57 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: i feel like theyre giving the illusion of both but actually doing the former
[12:57 AM] ABR: first paragraph(s)
[12:57 AM] ABR: my overall thoughts on councils
[12:58 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: It's always hard to gauge true demand for change as those who wish to alter the status quo will always have more to say than those who want to maintain it, whether it's about suspecting a specific pokemon, nerfing/banning Z-Moves, or anything of the sort.
[12:58 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: this i agree and disagree with
[12:58 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: for one simple reason
[12:58 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: sure, there might be loud minorities
[12:58 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: and sure we might test shit because of said minorities
[12:58 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: but in the end the quiet majorities
[12:58 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: if they exist
[12:58 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: will vote
[12:58 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: and will vote no ban
[12:58 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: ideally the people who play this game at a high level should be the only ones with a say on what gets banned and what doesn't
[12:58 AM] Mannat: I don't mean to say that the opinion of the masses is worth nothing, but rather that changes to the status quo should be driven by the council. If the council wishes to change something, then it must request permission from the masses via a suspect test, as it should.
[12:58 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: but at least a test was MADE
[12:58 AM] PDC: sableye :blobsad~3:
[12:58 AM] Mannat: this part sticks out as problematic to me
[12:58 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: i feel like accessibility is holding us back in some ways
[12:59 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: sure, the reqs drive out completely new players
[12:59 AM] Misdreavus: I think that suspect test that don't end in bans are important for the tiering process as a whole
[12:59 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: and yes that paragraph
[12:59 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: is what i see as the problem right now
[12:59 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: its a complete lie on the suspect process
[12:59 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: but the average ones and those who dont necessarily main the tier can still have a voice
[12:59 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: community means shit
[12:59 AM] Mannat: because it sounds like you aren't willing to test things as a result of community request
[12:59 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: if the only tests are the ones the council are sure will end up as bans
[12:59 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: i dont know if thats what we want and i dont know if it can be changed
[12:59 AM] Mannat: but only using the community as a means to show support for your own decisions
[12:59 AM] Mannat: that have already been made
[12:59 AM] Mannat: im not saying abr's some puppermaster, but that's just how that part reads
[12:59 AM] Mannat: to me
[1:00 AM] obii: Yo did eo rly say suspects  only happen if councils sure of which way itll go
[1:00 AM] obii: I aint read everythin
[1:00 AM] eOut: no?
[1:00 AM] eOut: why would we ever be sure
[1:00 AM] obii: Whatd u say then
[1:00 AM] obii: Whats rey saying
[1:00 AM] Mannat: he said that no one changes their minds in 2 weeks so its more or less a formality
[1:00 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: suspects are only done if council is 100% sure mon deserves to be banned
[1:00 AM] Mannat: unless that's been amended since he said it.
[1:00 AM] obii: Search is broken
[1:00 AM] ABR: bro
[1:00 AM] ABR: fuc search
[1:00 AM] Mannat: search being broken is so aids
[1:00 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: 12:40 AM] eOut: a test = ban
[12:40 AM] eOut: yes
[12:40 AM] eOut: because people aren't making up their minds in the two weeks of a test
[1:00 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: here obii
[1:00 AM] Mannat: cant look up ev spreads and teams
[1:00 AM] eOut: I am saying that it's incorrect to think of the two weeks during which a suspect test is conducted as a self-contained experiment in which a decision is formed exclusively on the basis of observations made during that time period
[1:01 AM] obii: So whats the pt of a 2 week suspect then
[1:01 AM] obii: LOL
[1:01 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: if we take eos idea
[1:01 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: then none
[1:01 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: which is my
[1:01 AM] Mannat: thats basically the pt being made here
[1:01 AM] Christo: yeah long af suspect
[1:01 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: problem with all of this
[1:01 AM] eOut: it's a way to gather a voting pool
[1:01 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: lol
[1:01 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: as it stands, a suspect test is an illusion of community input
[1:01 AM] Mannat: that's a valid point tbf
[1:01 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: because suspect tests are only made if the council is sure something will happen
[1:01 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: there are other ways to gather voting pools
[1:01 AM] Mannat: not atm
[1:02 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: If the council wishes to change something, then it must request permission from the masses via a suspect test, as it should.
[1:02 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: this is the problem i have
[1:02 AM] Mannat: bc there's no tournaments to base qualifications off of
[1:02 AM] Christo: thats because the public opinion is usually bad
[1:02 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: i think it should be the other way around
[1:02 AM] Mannat: yeah
[1:02 AM] Mannat: agree
[1:02 AM] obii: Ok so what im getting is
[1:02 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: we can "approve" players based on ladder
[1:02 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: ik its pretty far out there but
[1:02 AM] TDK: only using tournament qualifications is stupid too
[1:02 AM] Mannat: yea
[1:02 AM] Mannat: i agree
[1:02 AM] Mannat: im just responding to "theres other ways to get qualifications"
[1:02 AM] Mannat: bc we dont have any rn
[1:02 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: people can get the reqs at any point
[1:02 AM] obii: Eo: suspects are a way to gather voter pools bc a 2 werk meta isnt enough to form an educated opinion on smth

Most ppl have formed their opinions based on yrs / months of playing
[1:03 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: and theyd count for the next suspect only
[1:03 AM] obii: Am i right
[1:03 AM] Mannat: what.
[1:03 AM] Mannat: thats an entirely different metagame
[1:03 AM] eOut: not years really? but yeah
[1:03 AM] Mannat: why the fuck would that be a thing
[1:03 AM] obii: Yeah nit yrs byt
[1:03 AM] obii: Yeah
[1:03 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: so if what eo says is true
[1:03 AM] Christo: the problem with using the public for suspect tests rey is that
[1:03 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: wasnt the point here to have more frequent suspects
[1:04 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: and the council only puts up things for test that are so polarizing that theyre sure a ban will happen
[1:04 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: idk
[1:04 AM] Mannat: it's moreso an overall criticism for the tiering process
[1:04 AM] Mannat: i think
[1:04 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: then it means the test is worthless
[1:04 AM] obii: The suspect is less of a way to "test" the broken element but rather just gather a voting poil
[1:04 AM] obii: Pool
[1:04 AM] Christo: the average player usually doesnt know how to use the mon getting suspected effectively
[1:04 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: its as if the council just decided it will be banned
[1:04 AM] Christo: so they dont think its broken
[1:04 AM] Christo: by default
[1:04 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: i dont think i get what you mean christo
[1:04 AM] eOut: the test isn't pointless because it prevents us from putting shit up that isn't actually reflective of community consensus
[1:04 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: how so eo
[1:05 AM] Mannat: yeah but you also fail to put up shit that IS reflective of community consensus
[1:05 AM] Mannat: it's one or the other dude
[1:05 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: the problem is that you dont run into the suspected mon at playing levels where its actually problematic
[1:05 AM] obii: The test isnt 100% pointless bc u dont have a way to gather a voter pool otherwise w.o makin ppl mad
[1:05 AM] eOut: if the council agrees to ban something and the community doesn't, then we're blocked
[1:05 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: yes
[1:05 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: but the problem is
[1:05 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: you only agree to ban things that are way off the gorund
[1:05 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: no borderline cases
[1:05 AM] Mannat: we can always revisit tiering decisions later
[1:05 AM] Christo: basically the general player is too uninformed on the meta to have a valid opinion
[1:06 AM] Mannat: i think that aspect is rly heavily ignored
[1:06 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: yeah i think
[1:06 AM] PDC: revisiting tiering decisions is
[1:06 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: @Christo obviously im not asaying
[1:06 AM] PDC: so fucking ridiculously guided by ideology
[1:06 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: take what ladder random 1100 elo player preaches
[1:06 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: and do a test
[1:06 AM] PDC: lets be honest mannat
[1:06 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: im saying if a significant portion of the playerbase
[1:06 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: think a mon deserve a tes
[1:06 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: theres a problem with "community" encompassing both the good players not on the council and the huge pool of average players
[1:06 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: even if the council doesnt
[1:06 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: then maybe its worth having it...
[1:06 AM] Mannat: well we're trying to break down said figurative red tape
[1:06 AM] Mannat: pdc
[1:06 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: for example: kartana in SM
[1:06 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: mawile in SM
[1:06 AM] Christo: oh ok
[1:06 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: whatever shit ppl wanted tested in oras
[1:06 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: etc
[1:06 AM] TDK: sableye
[1:06 AM] Mannat: like a less extreme version of koko's uu
[1:06 AM] Christo: i started reading half way through
[1:06 AM] PDC: FREE MSAB
[1:06 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: yea
[1:07 AM] Christo: yeah i agree
[1:07 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: that kinda shit
[1:07 AM] ABR: .
[1:07 AM] Mannat: like more frequent testing = it should be easier to retest stuff if need be
[1:07 AM] ABR: the free msab mvements the woat
[1:07 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: the community is divided in those examples
[1:07 AM] TDK: we tested msab and i think the majority of council vote dnb
[1:07 AM] Valentine: Sab should remain banned
[1:07 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: so why nt test them
[1:07 AM] PDC: msab won't make oras better but
[1:07 AM] Mannat: free hoopa
[1:07 AM] PDC: it damn sure wasn't broken
[1:07 AM] shiloh: testing / banning stuff just bc we can "retest it" in the future is a terrible way to look at things
[1:08 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: i agree shiloh but i also feel like not having a more liberal approach to fiddling with metagames
[1:08 AM] Mannat: if it's controversial and potentially problematic, why not
[1:08 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: because we are afraid of retesting in case of mistakes
[1:08 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: is just as bad
[1:08 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: i feel like the whole unbanning system is guided by "these mons will make the tier better" in the first place when this is discouraged in suspects
[1:08 AM] Christo: idk why u cant ban/unban mons in old gens anyway
[1:08 AM] Christo: its an inactive ladder so it doesnt matter
[1:08 AM] Mannat: more often then not, the community is going to make the correct decision
[1:08 AM] shiloh: lower tiers do
[1:08 AM] shiloh: love the koko method
[1:08 AM] Misdreavus: maybe it would be easier if there was more than 1 test/year :blobbucket~1:
[1:08 AM] eOut: the community has apparently made the wrong decision multiple times with dpp latias and bw excadrill
[1:08 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: and even if the community doesnt make the "correct" decision
[1:09 AM] Mannat: so times when we retest shit is going to be rly rare
[1:09 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: at least it was the majority decision
[1:09 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: at the time
[1:09 AM] Hayburner: sm having no test done near the end
[1:09 AM] Mannat: its not like we're gonna have 600 retests a month
[1:09 AM] Hayburner: Was rly dumb
[1:09 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: and that makes it fair in my eyes
[1:09 AM] Hayburner: imo
[1:09 AM] Mannat: sm shoulda had one of kart or maw tested for sure
[1:09 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: SM having no tests in two full fucking years
[1:09 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: despite a ton of ppl asking for them
[1:09 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: yeah
[1:09 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: RESPECT, SKILLED people
[1:09 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: is a fucking sham
[1:09 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: and is representative of everything thats wrong
[1:09 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: with the process right now
[1:09 AM] Misdreavus: suspect should by definition not have a correct result, otherwise why not just qb it?
[1:10 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: exactly QQ
[1:10 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: suspect basically means, what the majority of the community wants, happens
[1:10 AM] TDK: the last sm test was under a year ago ftr
[1:10 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: zyg?
[1:10 AM] TDK: yeah
[1:10 AM] shiloh: free zyg
[1:10 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: a year in a meta is equal to 10 real life years
[1:10 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: its like dog year
[1:10 AM] Hayburner: yea but the meta was fucking dogshit in snake
[1:10 AM] Mannat: i still think
[1:10 AM] Mannat: no test this fall
[1:10 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: no but for real its still a lot of time
[1:10 AM] Mannat: was p ridiculous
[1:10 AM] eOut: I think the snake meta was fine
[1:11 AM] eOut: I agree with how SM turned out
[1:11 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: you do eo
[1:11 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: but plenty of people dont
[1:11 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: and thats enough
[1:11 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: to have a test
[1:11 AM] eOut: plenty of people also did
[1:11 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: because its not a BAN
[1:11 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: its a test
[1:11 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: yes
[1:11 AM] TDK: i'm not arguing against wanting more tests but "no tests for 2 years" is :rolling_eyes:
[1:11 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: theres a division
[1:11 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: thats the point
[1:11 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: there is no right or wrong here
[1:11 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: so we test
[1:11 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: that SHOULD BE THE POINT OF TESTS
[1:11 AM] eOut: there was a lot of divisiveness in the approach that should've been taken
[1:11 AM] eOut: tricking wanted to ban magnezone, for example
[1:11 AM] Mannat: ok come on
[1:11 AM] ABR: rey what do u think should be a councils role
[1:11 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: the whole point is to have suspects that divide the community instead of everyone agreeing
[1:11 AM] Valentine: Hot take = once ANY metagame has been optimized, players will want to nerf the top strategies
[1:12 AM] Mannat: sm was not optimized tho
[1:12 AM] Mannat: lol.
[1:12 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: i think the council role should be that to guide the tiering process
[1:12 AM] Hayburner: I mean the vast majority was kart or maw
[1:12 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: just that
1:12 AM] Misdreavus: ppl atm treat tests as ban because the last like 12 tests in ou were bans
[1:12 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: they shouldnt DEFINE the tier
[1:12 AM] Hayburner: Was it rly that hard to sus one or both
[1:12 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: look at dynamax literally everyones just wanting it gone
[1:12 AM] eOut: the vast majority of whom?
[1:12 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: which is whats happening right now
[1:12 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: why do we have a suspect for this
[1:12 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: with the "illusion" of suspects
[1:12 AM] Mannat: ok come on dude
[1:12 AM] ABR: bc its a big decision
[1:12 AM] Hayburner: ppl from the community complaining
[1:12 AM] eOut: stop ok come onning me
[1:12 AM] Hayburner: Was mainly kart and maw
[1:12 AM] ABR: not just for this discord chat
[1:12 AM] ABR: for peoples view of smogon
[1:12 AM] ABR: its better to have a full test
[1:12 AM] ABR: than a quickban
[1:12 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: ok dude i can understand the worthless dynamax test
[1:12 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: because of the implication
[1:12 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: of banning the gen defining mech
[1:13 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: ill give you that one
[1:13 AM] Mannat: you're using some v obviously fringe examples to divert attention from the real issue eo
[1:13 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: its a real big thing
[1:13 AM] ABR: aside
[1:13 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: but like
[1:13 AM] ABR: i just got reqs
[1:13 AM] eOut: no, I'm not
[1:13 AM] ABR: w glalie
[1:13 AM] Mannat: pointing out that tricking wants to ban magnezone isn't productive
[1:13 AM] ABR: :boot:
[1:13 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: im talking SM kartana
[1:13 AM] Mannat: at all
[1:13 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: SM mawile
[1:13 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: ORAS sab
[1:13 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: its really weird
[1:13 AM] eOut: I listened to people like ojama, who said the meta was fine
[1:13 AM] Mannat: because that's one person
[1:13 AM] Hayburner: I'm so sick of moody
[1:13 AM] Hayburner: alr
[1:13 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: BW weather
[1:13 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: DPP latias
[1:13 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: etc
[1:13 AM] Hayburner: it's so dumb
[1:13 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: we say we cater to the top tour players but we're also apparently caring about pr too
[1:13 AM] eOut: other players in snake said it was fine
[1:13 AM] eOut: I thought it was fine
[1:13 AM] eOut: sorry I valued the opinions of known top players as requested?
[1:13 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: like if we care about the general public that doesnt play this game
[1:13 AM] ABR: u balance both, ideally
[1:13 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: we should be open about it
[1:13 AM] Mannat: many known top players also had issues w the tier
[1:13 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: @eOut but a lot of people clearly felt the other way
[1:14 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: and that should be enough
[1:14 AM] Mannat: p vocally
[1:14 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: to listen to them
[1:14 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: and perhaps have a suspect test
[1:14 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: thats what i think the councils role should be
[1:14 AM] eOut: as I said
[1:14 AM] eOut: the approaches suggested by people were different
[1:14 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: it shouldnt be "ok this is hella broken and it will be banned, so lets test it"
[1:14 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: it should be
[1:14 AM] Hayburner: If a majority dont want smth banned
[1:14 AM] Hayburner: That will show in the vote
[1:14 AM] blue moon: [BSP] Dr. ReyToday at 11:12 PM
ok dude i can understand the worthless dynamax test

because of the implication
[1:14 AM] Hayburner: So whys that an issue in having a test
[1:14 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: "okay the community is divided on this mon, and although my opinion is x, a test is worth having so that the community decides on the course of action"
[1:14 AM] Mannat: the second post in the thread i linked is literally charm (arguably the largest catalyst behind the team that won snake) arguing that kart or maw needs to go
[1:14 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: thats what i think the council should do
[1:14 AM] blue moon:

[1:15 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: yes blue moon i love IASIP
[1:15 AM] eOut: charmflash suggested multiple different bans, including a complex z-move ban
[1:15 AM] eOut: like I said, tricking had some differing opinions
[1:15 AM] Mannat: always sunny's a classic
[1:15 AM] eOut: z0mog wanted to unban lando-i
[1:15 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: no one else agreed with these guys
[1:15 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: when its just 1 guy you dont need to listen
[1:15 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: i mean lets not take
[1:15 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: the fringe things
[1:15 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: when theres a lot of support
[1:15 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: you can do something
[1:15 AM] eOut: they're not fringe things
[1:15 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: lets take shit like kartana and mawile for example
[1:15 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: which had a lot of support
[1:15 AM] Mannat: eOutToday at 2:15 AM
z0mog wanted to unban lando-i
[1:15 AM] eOut: they were all proposed
[1:15 AM] Mannat: ok and like
[1:15 AM] Mannat: how many others.
[1:15 AM] eOut: in the same thread
[1:15 AM] eOut: we're talking about
[1:15 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: a proposal by one dude
[1:15 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: is not the same
[1:15 AM] eOut: and what metrics are you using
1:16 AM] eOut: to gauge support for kart/ban vs. these proposal?
[1:16 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: lets have polls :smile:
[1:16 AM] Mannat: more than 1 person posted about kartana
[1:16 AM] ABR: [BSP] Dr. ReyToday at 2:14 AM
"okay the community is divided on this mon, and although my opinion is x, a test is worth having so that the community decides on the course of action"
[1:16 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: what metrics are you using
[1:16 AM] ABR: cant like
[1:16 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: for suspect vs qb
[1:16 AM] Mannat: 1 person posted about lando i
[1:16 AM] ABR: say, quite quiet
[1:16 AM] Mannat: its as simple as that.
[1:16 AM] eOut: so?
[1:16 AM] ABR: fulfill this role
[1:16 AM] ABR: tho
[1:16 AM] eOut: it's not that simple mannat lol
[1:16 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: yes
[1:16 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: he could
[1:16 AM] eOut: so I'm ignoring what you're saying
[1:16 AM] eOut: rey is correct though
[1:16 AM] ABR: im basically saying
[1:16 AM] eOut: we should've polled
[1:16 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: council also makes a call on whether to suspect or qb something
[1:16 AM] ABR: councils would be rendered useless
[1:16 AM] ABR: under ur system
[1:16 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: theyre not useless
[1:16 AM] Misdreavus: I'm not an ou tiering person tho
[1:16 AM] ABR: now thats a fine take
[1:16 AM] ABR: but
[1:16 AM] ABR: thats what it is
[1:16 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: i dont think theres much of a difference here
[1:16 AM] Mannat: didn't we suggest a post snake poll
[1:16 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: they just
[1:16 AM] Mannat: for sm starters
[1:16 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: act as the authorities
[1:16 AM] Mannat: that just didnt happen
[1:16 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: thats it
[1:16 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: they dont have a bigger say
[1:16 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: than the community at large
[1:17 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: if you wanna give power to a council
[1:17 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: have them be authorities with respected opinions that decide
[1:17 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: what kinda suspect test should be done
[1:17 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: or something
[1:17 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: but not deciding literally what mon comes and goes
[1:17 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: the community should decide that
[1:18 AM] eOut: for the record: I think the metrics being used by people to gauge community consensus are faulty and incomplete. that said, it is our failure to not supply a way to reference such metrics, such as a poll
[1:18 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: i have a kinda skewed opinion on councils bc the one i experienced was just 1 guy
[1:18 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: but i dont think they should have this much power
[1:18 AM] Misdreavus: in general that's what the council should do, gauge the opinions of the playerbase and if there's a big devide on a topic (sm kart) hold a test
[1:18 AM] Mannat: quick q
[1:18 AM] Mannat: why was a post snake poll not done
[1:18 AM] Mannat: specifically
[1:18 AM] Mannat: plenty of ppl suggested it w no opposition
[1:18 AM] eOut: one person suggested it
[1:18 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: its as easy as this
[1:18 AM] Mannat: if the discord search feature wasnt broken id be able to find more examples
[1:18 AM] Mannat: :rage:
[1:18 AM] eOut: can we stop misrepresenting things
[1:18 AM] ABR: bro
[1:18 AM] ABR: its so annoying
[1:19 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: first poll: "do you feel the metagame is adequate right now or do you think there is a problematic element on it"
[1:19 AM] eOut: one person suggested it in the thread (starry)
[1:19 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: if there is a divide in that poll
[1:19 AM] Mannat: oh
[1:19 AM] Mannat: i meant on disc
[1:19 AM] Mannat: not in the thread
[1:19 AM] ABR: no
[1:19 AM] ABR: ik
[1:19 AM] ABR: mannat
[1:19 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: then we put up a forum thread
[1:19 AM] ABR: o
[1:19 AM] eOut: we can't actively monitor discord
[1:19 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: in which people note
[1:19 AM] eOut: for all suggestions
[1:19 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: the problematic elements
[1:19 AM] Mannat: i mean council members were participating
[1:19 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: and we check for concordances
[1:19 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: in people
[1:19 AM] Mannat: in said conversations
[1:19 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: if there is a good amount of support
[1:19 AM] Mannat: so its not like the concept was unknown.
[1:19 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: towards 1 problematic element
[1:19 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: we test it
[1:19 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: that show i think
[1:19 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: ideally
[1:19 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: it should go
[1:19 AM] ABR: aside
[1:19 AM] ABR: i appreciate this tone more.
[1:20 AM] ABR: a lot more productive
[1:20 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: its not a coincidence the tone changes when you have actual answers
[1:20 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: to the issues being brought up
[1:20 AM] Mannat: i actually like this idea a lot
[1:20 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: rather than "ok thanks ok thanks haha ill think about it haha"
[1:20 AM] obii: Das what happens when finch logs off
[1:20 AM] Mannat: poll>thread>followup poll
[1:20 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: fucking love defensive thin skinned leaders
[1:20 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: so conductive to discussion
[1:20 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: w/e
[1:20 AM] ABR: well ud know from being a td but
[1:20 AM] ABR: its not an even scale
[1:20 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: i mean when i was a td
[1:20 AM] ABR: few people arguing against many
[1:21 AM] Misdreavus: sounds like it'd take lots of time with those polls
[1:21 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: i didnt care about puttingm yself out there
[1:21 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: for example
[1:21 AM] ABR: its an uphill battle
[1:21 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: with my decisions re: managers
[1:21 AM] Mannat: not rly
[1:21 AM] [Dynamax Hater] Evidith: I know we don't have the same playerbase and people contributing but the whole Zydog test we did late SM was largely kicked off Discord discussions being brought later on to forums by council
[1:21 AM] Mannat: 1 week per poll
[1:21 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: but thats another story
[1:21 AM] [Dynamax Hater] Evidith: so it's definitely not impossible to do
[1:21 AM] Mannat: i think a big thing is that
[1:21 AM] Mannat: compared to the past
[1:21 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: what i wanna reach here is
[1:21 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: not that what im suggesting is the way to go but
[1:21 AM] Mannat: is that the ou discord isn't rly used as a catalyst for significant ou discussion
[1:21 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: that there needs to be a full discussion
[1:21 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: with council and community together
[1:21 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: of how to fix this shit
[1:21 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: hm
[1:21 AM] [Dynamax Hater] Evidith: then change that
[1:22 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: and something NEEDS to happen
[1:22 AM] Mannat: stours is kinda where that's done now and as such it's not taken as seriously
[1:22 AM] ABR: well rey u cud make an overall
[1:22 AM] ABR: suspect process
[1:22 AM] ABR: thread
[1:22 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: this cant stay like this
[1:22 AM] [Dynamax Hater] Evidith: Discord is one of the best way to make people contribute
[1:22 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: if noones done it by tomorrow i will
[1:22 AM] Mannat: i totally agree evi
[1:22 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: now its late and i gotta drive early tomorrow
[1:22 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: suspect thread is ok i think
[1:22 AM] Mannat: but im not exactly in a position to change it myself.
[1:22 AM] eOut: stours is an acceptable venue for discussion just be aware that not everything makes it onto the record unless someone goes and puts it in threads
[1:22 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: so imma sleep bye
[1:22 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: you can have often controversial takes being argued for and against so the actual points come out
[1:22 AM] Mannat: I think that's perfectly fine eo, but you can still document stuff like this
[1:22 AM] Valentine: If anyone wants to post a thread for Rey now would be the time
[1:22 AM] Mannat: that's talked about on discord
[1:23 AM] [Dynamax Hater] Evidith: nah but also there's a certain need to it being actually taken into account
[1:23 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: smogon posts are a lot better for this than disc
[1:23 AM] eOut: also I think having surveys that align with the general tour cadence is fine for now
[1:23 AM] [Dynamax Hater] Evidith: like we in RU keep account of pretty much everything and if it can be brought on forums we do consider doing it ourself
[1:23 AM] [Dynamax Hater] Evidith: (except obvious clownery like suspecting Necrozma ROFL)
[1:23 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: im a bit concerned that since ou is so big it'll just get flooded with random players
[1:23 AM] Mannat: LOL
[1:24 AM] eOut: I think anything that is said on discord can be used to describe a point with the caveat that things said off the record hold less weight
[1:24 AM] Mannat: the suspect necro movement was so funny
[1:24 AM] Mannat: well's snake win was the culmination of it
[1:24 AM] Mannat: i feel
[1:24 AM] [Dynamax Hater] Evidith: OU is big but that's kinda why you have a council of involved players
[1:24 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: but i feel like something like the "state of sm ou" thread but always open
[1:24 AM] [Dynamax Hater] Evidith: if you need more, then bring in more
[1:24 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: and with proxy posting allowed
[1:24 AM] Mannat: i think ou's done a great job doing that this gen fwiw
[1:24 AM] ChlorineDrinker2: if it isnt already
[1:24 AM] ABR: doing what
[1:25 AM] eOut: one problem with the state of sm ou thread was that it was too broad to address anything in depth beyond the question of "do something or not"
[1:25 AM] Mannat: keeping a council of involved players/adding more when there's more of a need
[1:25 AM] Mannat: @ABR
[1:25 AM] ABR: o
[1:25 AM] Mannat: like i can confidently say everyone on the ou council actively plays ss ou and is contributing to the tier
[1:25 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: actually ill make the thread tomorrow for sure
[1:25 AM] Mannat: which u couldnt say for other councils in the past
[1:25 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: ik exactly what to make it about
[1:25 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: ill post this chat too
[1:25 AM] [BSP] Dr. Rey: bcuz i feel like this context is important