2:49 PM - CrazyMLC: so what do you think about the first fallen
2:49 PM - Dr. Alphys: chara's a dick
2:50 PM - CrazyMLC: well that's hard to dispute
2:50 PM - CrazyMLC: but why
2:51 PM - Dr. Alphys: i believe asriel alluded to chara having bad reasons to climb mt. ebottt
2:51 PM - CrazyMLC: well i mean we know chara poisoned themselves so asriel could have their soul
2:52 PM - CrazyMLC: so they could pass through the barrier
2:52 PM - CrazyMLC: i'm assuming so that they could kill more humans
2:52 PM - CrazyMLC: and come back to break the barrier
2:53 PM - Dr. Alphys: yeah
2:53 PM - Dr. Alphys: i don't think that's disputable
2:54 PM - CrazyMLC: i haven't watched a full genocide run, only the ends
2:54 PM - CrazyMLC: so i don't know all of the stuff
2:54 PM - CrazyMLC: but its obvious that chara is a little messed up even before then, but not like. murder crazy psycho
2:54 PM - Dr. Alphys: chara was really just evil
2:55 PM - Dr. Alphys: like i know it sounds like a copout but chara wanted to kill everyone
2:55 PM - Dr. Alphys: including asriel i believe
2:55 PM - CrazyMLC: why do you say that
2:55 PM - Dr. Alphys: because towards the end of a no mercy run
2:56 PM - Dr. Alphys: you know when you get the encounters with all the monsters of the game sequentially
2:56 PM - Dr. Alphys: and they tell the story of the game?
2:56 PM - CrazyMLC: yeah
2:56 PM - Dr. Alphys: those are replaced with encounters with flowey where /flowey/ slowly realizes that you're coming to kill them
2:56 PM - Dr. Alphys: and becomes fearful of you
2:56 PM - Dr. Alphys: and begs for mercy
2:57 PM - CrazyMLC: so
2:57 PM - CrazyMLC: asriel himself says flowey isnt him
2:58 PM - CrazyMLC: even if flowey made an asriel-y face
2:58 PM - CrazyMLC: itd only make chara angrier
2:58 PM - CrazyMLC: i think chara sees flowey as a bastardization of azriel
2:59 PM - Dr. Alphys: flowey represents asriel at the very least, and references asriel's actions and history with chara
2:59 PM - Dr. Alphys: he talks about things they "planned together"
2:59 PM - CrazyMLC: mm
2:59 PM - Dr. Alphys: i think flowey is literally asriel but stripped of a lot of emotions
2:59 PM - Dr. Alphys: which is why he is the way he is
3:00 PM - CrazyMLC: hes only asriels will to live
3:01 PM - CrazyMLC: if chara is really just evil
3:01 PM - CrazyMLC: why get killed
3:01 PM - CrazyMLC: they could just kill a monster, or all of them
3:01 PM - CrazyMLC: pass through the barrier
3:01 PM - CrazyMLC: kill every human
3:01 PM - CrazyMLC: and be done
3:01 PM - Dr. Alphys: because
3:01 PM - Dr. Alphys: humans
3:01 PM - Dr. Alphys: can't
3:01 PM - Dr. Alphys: absorb
3:01 PM - Dr. Alphys: monster souls
3:02 PM - CrazyMLC: is frisk special. i forgot that
3:02 PM - Dr. Alphys: except i suppose especially powerful ones ("boss monsters"?)
3:03 PM - CrazyMLC: if thats true then a human could never pass through the barrier
3:04 PM - CrazyMLC: and alphys implies you can if you kill asgore
3:04 PM - CrazyMLC: so is frisk special and
3:04 PM - CrazyMLC: all the other kids were on fools errands
3:04 PM - Dr. Alphys: no, i think it might be that asgore's a boss monster
3:05 PM - CrazyMLC: none of the other bosses count as that?
3:05 PM - Dr. Alphys: confirmed boss monsters are toriel and asgore
3:05 PM - Dr. Alphys: http://undertale.wikia.com/wiki/Boss_Monster
3:05 PM - CrazyMLC: but if you kill toriel then you can escape then
3:05 PM - CrazyMLC: so
3:06 PM - CrazyMLC: see this doesnt make sense
3:06 PM - CrazyMLC: frisk can get strong enough to erase the world
3:07 PM - CrazyMLC: why couldnt chara
3:07 PM - Dr. Alphys: idk, there are definitely potential explanations but it's hard to tell if any would be canon
3:08 PM - CrazyMLC: also uh how do we know who is frisk and who is chara in canon
3:08 PM - CrazyMLC: ppl seem to know but im confused
3:08 PM - Dr. Alphys: chara is the 'true name' to name your character at the start of the game
3:09 PM - CrazyMLC: yeah i interpreted that as meaning the person was chara but that's supposed to eb attached to that you're playing as the first in frisk? or
3:09 PM - Dr. Alphys: the character you name at the start of the game
3:09 PM - Dr. Alphys: the name of the character who fell into the underground is fixed
3:09 PM - Dr. Alphys: the fact that asriel/flowey calls you by chara's name is meant to be a delusion
3:10 PM - Dr. Alphys: at the end of true pacifist he asks "what's your actual name?" and then goes "... frisk, huh?"
3:10 PM - CrazyMLC: mm
3:10 PM - CrazyMLC: yeah i know but
3:11 PM - CrazyMLC: idk i interpreted that differently
3:11 PM - Dr. Alphys: did you?
3:11 PM - CrazyMLC: yeah i guess i was just confused
3:11 PM - CrazyMLC: and if you're actually more literally playing as chara then that doesn't mean chara's a dick necessarily does it
3:12 PM - CrazyMLC: it means you define who chara is by your choices
3:12 PM - Dr. Alphys: in true pacifist and neutral you're playing as frisk, but with a long-running delusion by flowey/asriel about youb eing chara
3:12 PM - Dr. Alphys: in no mercy, you're playing as frisk who's been 'possessed' by chara
3:12 PM - CrazyMLC: but chara is the "true name"
3:13 PM - CrazyMLC: also how can frisk be possessed by chara if chara's soul is in a container
3:13 PM - Dr. Alphys: it's not
3:13 PM - Dr. Alphys: at the end of (iirc) pacifist you can see that the coffin was opened and is empty
3:13 PM - Dr. Alphys: and in no mercy, flowey has some dialogue that implies that
3:13 PM - Dr. Alphys: toriel wanted to give chara a 'proper' burial
3:14 PM - CrazyMLC: is someone else buried in the garbage land then
3:14 PM - CrazyMLC: since there's a flower bed there
3:14 PM - Dr. Alphys: so she took chara's body and buried it in the spot where you fall at the start of the game
3:14 PM - CrazyMLC: is that supposed to be asriel
3:14 PM - Dr. Alphys: that's a legitimate mystery actually
3:14 PM - Dr. Alphys: i'm not sure who died in the junkyard
3:14 PM - CrazyMLC: i mean i guess you hear asriel's voice when you fall there so
3:15 PM - Dr. Alphys: that's true, but i think asriel's dust definitely spread over the flower garden in the throne room
3:15 PM - Dr. Alphys: that's where alphys injected determination into a flower to (accidentally) make flowey, right?
3:16 PM - CrazyMLC: yea i guess
3:16 PM - CrazyMLC: it coulda been at the junkyard too
3:16 PM - CrazyMLC: we know alphys hangs out there
3:17 PM - CrazyMLC: i might play hard mode genocide and quit after beating sans
3:17 PM - Dr. Alphys: hard mode only goes to toriel boss fight
3:17 PM - CrazyMLC: ?
3:17 PM - CrazyMLC: why
3:17 PM - Dr. Alphys: it's just literally how hard mode works
3:17 PM - Dr. Alphys: tobydog comes in and ends the game
3:18 PM - Dr. Alphys: in a very meta way
3:18 PM - Dr. Alphys: it says that maybe in a future patch hard mode will be extended
3:18 PM - Dr. Alphys: (but don't count on it)
3:18 PM - CrazyMLC: o
3:19 PM - CrazyMLC: im checking out the flower bed in my true pacifist save
3:19 PM - CrazyMLC: i already know asriel is at the begging where you fall
3:19 PM - Dr. Alphys: mhm
3:19 PM - CrazyMLC: beginning*
3:19 PM - CrazyMLC: tfw brain fart
3:20 PM - CrazyMLC: hm, it seems undisturbed
3:23 PM - Dr. Alphys: "One of Alphys' logs mentions that she doesn't like working with the golden flowers because the seeds stick to her clothes, and another one of her logs says that she spent a lot of time at the garbage dump. Not very interesting, but that's probably how the flowers got there."
3:24 PM - CrazyMLC: maybe
3:24 PM - CrazyMLC: then why do you hear asriel's voice when you fall there
3:25 PM - CrazyMLC: or is it someone else
3:25 PM - Dr. Alphys: it's definitely supposed to be asriel iirc
3:25 PM - Dr. Alphys: well the yellow flowers would have ultimately come from asriel's dust
3:25 PM - Dr. Alphys: but also
3:26 PM - Dr. Alphys: just a vague allusion to past events?
3:26 PM - CrazyMLC: why would they come from his dust
3:26 PM - CrazyMLC: is it because he brought back their seeds when he came back
3:26 PM - Dr. Alphys: because she worked with the golden flowers in the throne room (from asriel's dust)
3:26 PM - Dr. Alphys: yes, recall that chara's 'wish' was to be laid down in a bed of those flowers
3:27 PM - CrazyMLC: i wonder whats special about those flowers besides sticky seeds
3:27 PM - Dr. Alphys: http://40.media.tumblr.com/c57d774f12832111f697bab7ab55aab3/tumblr_nwunulVBD51qilejuo1_500.png
3:27 PM - Dr. Alphys: lmfao
3:27 PM - CrazyMLC: and apparently being able to hold determination
3:28 PM - CrazyMLC: lol
3:28 PM - Dr. Alphys: i think holding souls is the main thing
3:28 PM - CrazyMLC: but that wouldn't work since chara's soul is in asriel at that point
3:28 PM - CrazyMLC: ?
3:29 PM - Dr. Alphys: asriel... died... and turned into dust. while holding chara's corpse
3:29 PM - CrazyMLC: i mean
3:29 PM - CrazyMLC: being placed in the flowers as a wish
3:30 PM - CrazyMLC: they wouldn't end up holding chara's soul
3:30 PM - Dr. Alphys: maybe transmitting them back to the underground was part of chara's plan?
3:30 PM - CrazyMLC: thats a lot of planning for a little kid
3:30 PM - CrazyMLC: even if the kid is evil
3:30 PM - Dr. Alphys: chara does a lot of stabbing for a little kid
3:31 PM - CrazyMLC: i mean i know
3:31 PM - CrazyMLC: but anger doesn't mean intelligence
3:32 PM - CrazyMLC: or knowledge or planning
3:32 PM - CrazyMLC: also uh doesn't asgore have chara's soul
3:32 PM - CrazyMLC: in a bottle
3:32 PM - CrazyMLC: even if their corpse is missing
3:32 PM - Dr. Alphys: nope
3:33 PM - CrazyMLC: does that mean there's eight fallen children including frisk
3:33 PM - Dr. Alphys: one sec
3:34 PM - Dr. Alphys: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9o0sGqYLKzA
3:34 PM - Dr. Alphys: no red soul
3:35 PM - CrazyMLC: i guess
3:35 PM - CrazyMLC: why do we know chara's soul is red
3:35 PM - Dr. Alphys: yeah after chara died, asgore came up with the plan and killed the next 6 fallen humans
3:35 PM - Dr. Alphys: the heart on the coffin is red
3:36 PM - CrazyMLC: yeah but wasn't that for the character, or was the point of it having your name meant to say that it had chara's
3:36 PM - Dr. Alphys: what
3:36 PM - Dr. Alphys: it was for chara
3:36 PM - CrazyMLC: i guess
3:36 PM - CrazyMLC: then was there a coffin for frisk
3:36 PM - CrazyMLC: since there was one for everyone else
3:36 PM - Dr. Alphys: not yet
3:36 PM - Dr. Alphys: asgore didn't know to expect frisk and didn't have frisk's soul or corpse
3:37 PM - CrazyMLC: i didn't pay enoguh attention i forget what happens when you examine it in neutral
3:38 PM - CrazyMLC: but yeah
3:40 PM - CrazyMLC: but like
3:40 PM - CrazyMLC: chara still had access to a boss monster to kill
3:41 PM - CrazyMLC: to end up leaving and killing everything
3:41 PM - CrazyMLC: why do the whole overcomplicated plan
3:41 PM - Dr. Alphys: it's possible that frisk + a monster soul isn't as strong as asriel + chara's soul
3:41 PM - Dr. Alphys: i mean
3:43 PM - Dr. Alphys: one of the lore thingeridoos
3:43 PM - Dr. Alphys: says that it's one of the humans' greatest downfalls
3:43 PM - Dr. Alphys: that their soul can be absorbed by monsters
3:43 PM - CrazyMLC: yeah but chara ends up being a human anyway and killing everything
3:43 PM - CrazyMLC: to destroy the world
3:43 PM - CrazyMLC: why not do exactly what they made frisk do
3:43 PM - CrazyMLC: but in their own body
3:44 PM - Dr. Alphys: well i did recall somethin earlier
3:44 PM - Dr. Alphys: in that
3:44 PM - Dr. Alphys: frisk is decidedly special
3:44 PM - Dr. Alphys: only two characters have the ability to save/load in canon
3:44 PM - Dr. Alphys: with a debateable third in sans
3:44 PM - CrazyMLC: isn't chara one of those characters
3:45 PM - Dr. Alphys: flowey and frisk
3:45 PM - CrazyMLC: since you play as chara
3:46 PM - CrazyMLC: also humans aren't supposed to be able to absorb human souls so frisk shouldn't be able to absorb chara and be possessed by them
3:46 PM - CrazyMLC: unless that's part of what makes frisk special
3:46 PM - Dr. Alphys: i don't think chara's possession is normal soul absorption.
3:46 PM - CrazyMLC: that doesn't make a lot of sense
3:47 PM - Dr. Alphys: it doesn't not make sense to me? :u
3:47 PM - CrazyMLC: the only other time you see possession is when the human souls rebel on flowey, kinda
3:48 PM - CrazyMLC: what makes chara so special
3:52 PM - Dr. Alphys: incredible determination, perhaps?
3:53 PM - CrazyMLC: :U i guess
3:53 PM - CrazyMLC: i mean if flowey is nothing but determination in a flower
3:53 PM - CrazyMLC: and is violent
3:53 PM - CrazyMLC: then i guess that makes chara is a giant ball of determination
3:54 PM - CrazyMLC: means* or -is
3:54 PM - Dr. Alphys: chara, flowey, and frisk
3:54 PM - CrazyMLC: tfw head mixes multiple sentence options
3:54 PM - Dr. Alphys: are the most determined characters i think
3:54 PM - CrazyMLC: i think the ability to save comes from the player
3:54 PM - CrazyMLC: not frisk themselves
3:54 PM - CrazyMLC: if frisk could save load they'd load from before they fell
3:55 PM - CrazyMLC: if they didn't want to be down there i mean
3:55 PM - CrazyMLC: which it's implied you don't
3:55 PM - CrazyMLC: and considering the only other creature able to save load is a flower
3:55 PM - CrazyMLC: i think the player is actually the copies of chara's soul stored in the flwoers on their grave
3:56 PM - Dr. Alphys: http://undertale.wikia.com/wiki/SAVE wiki indicates that frisk is the one who can save/load
3:56 PM - CrazyMLC: and i guess if the golden flowers store souls it's like
3:56 PM - CrazyMLC: echo flowers but for souls instead of sound
3:56 PM - Dr. Alphys: granted it's not perfect
3:56 PM - CrazyMLC: who says the wiki knows any better than us
3:57 PM - CrazyMLC: and it's flowey talking to you at the end of true pacifist
3:57 PM - CrazyMLC: not frisk
3:57 PM - CrazyMLC: to not restart
3:57 PM - CrazyMLC: or load from the beginning
3:58 PM - Dr. Alphys: shru
3:58 PM - Dr. Alphys: g
3:58 PM - Dr. Alphys: doesn't really fit with my interpretation
3:59 PM - CrazyMLC: why not
3:59 PM - Dr. Alphys: because my interpretation is
3:59 PM - Dr. Alphys: not that.
3:59 PM - CrazyMLC: the plyer, frisk, and chara are all separate entities
3:59 PM - CrazyMLC: in the same body
3:59 PM - CrazyMLC: as far as i'm aware, anyway
4:00 PM - CrazyMLC: so i mean if your interpretation is that frisk and the palyer are one and the same, then i guess
4:00 PM - CrazyMLC: but where does your interpretation come from
4:04 PM - CrazyMLC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZqMcOqfLNM
4:41 PM - CrazyMLC is now Online.
4:44 PM - CrazyMLC: do you think frisk is always canonically possessed to some extent
4:45 PM - CrazyMLC: or only if you begin the genocide route
5:05 PM - CrazyMLC is now Away.