[14-Feb-20 02:18 AM] Quote#9846
ok peeps, banning the stupid ghost and firefox today

[14-Feb-20 06:31 AM] brewfasa#4532
bop

[14-Feb-20 09:07 AM] tazz#5495
k

[14-Feb-20 10:36 AM] BurntZebra#8147
Sounds good

[14-Feb-20 11:24 AM] tazz#5495
We could look into qbing apix and retesting later

[14-Feb-20 11:24 AM] Coconut#8762
is that the easiest fix?

[14-Feb-20 11:24 AM] tazz#5495
I think the odds of it being broken are very high

[14-Feb-20 11:24 AM] Coconut#8762
because I think doing that as a quick fix for SPL

[14-Feb-20 11:25 AM] Coconut#8762
isn't half bad of an idea

[14-Feb-20 11:25 AM] tazz#5495
yeah doing retests after things drop isnt uncommon in other tiers

[14-Feb-20 11:26 AM] tazz#5495
and its one of those mons where its broken in a way that breaks the tier p much

[14-Feb-20 11:26 AM] tazz#5495
bc what makes it broken is getting paired w cheese

[14-Feb-20 11:26 AM] tazz#5495
It wouldnt be just another op mon

[14-Feb-20 11:27 AM] levi#6206
Don’t really like the idea of quickbanning apix without proof

[14-Feb-20 11:27 AM] LilyAC#7887
quickbanning apix is ridiculous

[14-Feb-20 11:27 AM] levi#6206
I was hoping it’d already have proven itself by now but we haven’t even gotten rid of pix and floon yet

[14-Feb-20 11:28 AM] hongli#4483
idk how i feel about quickbanning apix

[14-Feb-20 11:28 AM] tazz#5495
well this is under the assumption w would retest the mon in time

[14-Feb-20 11:28 AM] hongli#4483
yeah, even then

[14-Feb-20 11:28 AM] hongli#4483
what about

[14-Feb-20 11:28 AM] hongli#4483
giving just zig that treatment

[14-Feb-20 11:28 AM] levi#6206
It’s still a different bar either way

[14-Feb-20 11:28 AM] levi#6206
Since it’s 60% to unban

[14-Feb-20 11:28 AM] LilyAC#7887
quickbanning zig is equally ridiculous

[14-Feb-20 11:28 AM] tazz#5495
i think the chances of it being insane are there even w/o zig

[14-Feb-20 11:29 AM] LilyAC#7887
i think theyre both very possibly bad

[14-Feb-20 11:29 AM] LilyAC#7887
or like, not good

[14-Feb-20 11:30 AM] levi#6206
I feel like they have to be good at minimum

[14-Feb-20 11:30 AM] levi#6206
They’re not like clear cut broken or w.e

[14-Feb-20 11:30 AM] tazz#5495
what even stops zig under veils

[14-Feb-20 11:30 AM] hongli#4483
zig not needing tect now too is super good for it

[14-Feb-20 11:31 AM] hongli#4483
as well

[14-Feb-20 11:31 AM] tazz#5495
that isnt already overloaded in terms of what it has to deal with

[14-Feb-20 11:31 AM] levi#6206
I usually ditched tect in gen 7 too

[14-Feb-20 11:31 AM] hongli#4483
thief isnt necessary either

[14-Feb-20 11:31 AM] levi#6206
But yea it’s nice

[14-Feb-20 11:31 AM] levi#6206
Well

[14-Feb-20 11:31 AM] levi#6206
It’s not like it has a huge movepool anyways

[14-Feb-20 11:31 AM] tazz#5495
Bomb/speed/drum/rock smash?

[14-Feb-20 11:31 AM] levi#6206
It can run seed bomb? And dedge or sth

[14-Feb-20 11:31 AM] hongli#4483
you can just run like bd+dedge+espee+bomb

[14-Feb-20 11:32 AM] levi#6206
Why rock smash

[14-Feb-20 11:32 AM] hongli#4483
pawn+ferro ig but

[14-Feb-20 11:32 AM] hongli#4483
its not doing much to ferro

[14-Feb-20 11:32 AM] hongli#4483
idt

[14-Feb-20 11:32 AM] tazz#5495
Pawn mostly

[14-Feb-20 11:32 AM] levi#6206
Wouldn’t thief still be better for either of those

[14-Feb-20 11:32 AM] levi#6206
You get a free evio

[14-Feb-20 11:32 AM] tazz#5495
Yeah prob

[14-Feb-20 11:33 AM] brewfasa#4532
qbanning pix should not be on the table

[14-Feb-20 11:33 AM] brewfasa#4532
are we joking

[14-Feb-20 11:33 AM] levi#6206
It should be for the start of week 8

[14-Feb-20 11:33 AM] levi#6206
Not in two days tho idt

[14-Feb-20 11:33 AM] tazz#5495
With the assumption that there would be a retest

[14-Feb-20 11:34 AM] tazz#5495
Are the new mons in PS yet

[14-Feb-20 11:34 AM] levi#6206
Should be on the table*

[14-Feb-20 11:34 AM] levi#6206
Maybe lily is right

[14-Feb-20 11:34 AM] Quote#9846
I wasn't looking to QB pix this week guys

[14-Feb-20 11:34 AM] Quote#9846
I just want people to talk about it

[14-Feb-20 11:34 AM] tazz#5495
lame

[14-Feb-20 11:35 AM] Quote#9846
I'm aware of its potency but I don't think we should go for it that quickly

[14-Feb-20 11:35 AM] levi#6206
Still think you should’ve gotten rid of pix and floon immediately to at least open the option

[14-Feb-20 11:35 AM] levi#6206
But oh well

[14-Feb-20 11:35 AM] Quote#9846
do you ever shut up

[14-Feb-20 11:35 AM] levi#6206
?

[14-Feb-20 11:35 AM] levi#6206
Are you drunk

[14-Feb-20 11:35 AM] brewfasa#4532
I’m more keen on looking at zig over veils

[14-Feb-20 11:36 AM] brewfasa#4532
initially

[14-Feb-20 11:36 AM] tazz#5495
anyone want to test

[14-Feb-20 11:36 AM] tazz#5495
the new mons

[14-Feb-20 11:36 AM] tazz#5495
threw together a veils

[14-Feb-20 11:36 AM] brewfasa#4532
I got some shit loaded up but won’t be able to play until get off work Unger

[14-Feb-20 11:36 AM] brewfasa#4532
unfort

[14-Feb-20 11:40 AM] BurntZebra#8147
How many opportunities does zig get to set up not in veils

[14-Feb-20 11:41 AM] levi#6206
Uh

[14-Feb-20 11:41 AM] levi#6206
It lives neutral ohkos from most non lo I think

[14-Feb-20 11:41 AM] BurntZebra#8147
I mean considering how potent zig is, memento dig is enough probably to set up vs most things

[14-Feb-20 11:41 AM] BurntZebra#8147
Which is super easy splashable support

[14-Feb-20 11:41 AM] levi#6206
Well running dig means pinch is harder to fit in

[14-Feb-20 11:42 AM] levi#6206
But yea

[14-Feb-20 11:44 AM] Serene Grace#5243
:waving:

[14-Feb-20 11:46 AM] Quote#9846
ok done banned them

[14-Feb-20 11:47 AM] levi#6206
lol

[14-Feb-20 11:47 AM] BurntZebra#8147
Does body press onix do anything to zig

[14-Feb-20 11:48 AM] BurntZebra#8147
Sort of needs to be a ohko after rocks for it to be useful probably

[14-Feb-20 11:48 AM] levi#6206
If it’s not behind veils then head smash should do a lot, no?

[14-Feb-20 11:48 AM] Quote#9846
it's a clean OHKO, isn't it?

[14-Feb-20 11:49 AM] Quote#9846
oh behind veils?

[14-Feb-20 11:49 AM] Quote#9846
uhh lol

[14-Feb-20 11:49 AM] Quote#9846
behind veil body press does half

[14-Feb-20 11:49 AM] brewfasa#4532
I think adamant head smash accomplishes the same thing most of the time

[14-Feb-20 11:49 AM] brewfasa#4532
but not guaranteed

[14-Feb-20 11:51 AM] brewfasa#4532
after rocks ur guaranteed tho

[14-Feb-20 11:55 AM] levi#6206
Body press might be worth it anyways

[14-Feb-20 11:55 AM] levi#6206
Not missing is probably going to important for sth of ziggys scale

[14-Feb-20 11:55 AM] brewfasa#4532
u just blame hax, loss doesn’t count

[14-Feb-20 11:56 AM] brewfasa#4532
idt bpress is worth a whole slot for a 10% chance

[14-Feb-20 11:56 AM] brewfasa#4532
20*

[14-Feb-20 11:57 AM] starmaster#8286
we def shouldn’t quickban apix or zig lol

[14-Feb-20 11:57 AM] starmaster#8286
MAYBE next week if they really seem broken

[14-Feb-20 12:19 PM] Serene Grace#5243
we could do it UU style where we ban and then retest

[14-Feb-20 12:19 PM] Serene Grace#5243
to not mess up a week of spl

[14-Feb-20 12:25 PM] Shrug#7659
imo qb and change the burden of proof vote to half

[14-Feb-20 12:26 PM] Shrug#7659
just make "midtier qbs" a different analytical category that requires a different burden than established-tier bans or unbans

[14-Feb-20 12:29 PM] levi#6206
It’s still a two day qb for a mon that was balanced in the only other (admittedly different) meta we had it in

[14-Feb-20 12:29 PM] levi#6206
There’s no real room for testing it

[14-Feb-20 01:23 PM] tazz#5495
shrug and I are doing some testing

[14-Feb-20 01:23 PM] tazz#5495
zigveils seems flat broken

[14-Feb-20 01:24 PM] tazz#5495
you have to run multiple steels/rocks to have any hope of winning

[14-Feb-20 01:25 PM] tazz#5495
and the stuff you have to run to not lose is really restrictive

[14-Feb-20 01:25 PM] tazz#5495
I support the midtier qb idea I rly don't think its a good idea to free this for a week

[14-Feb-20 01:26 PM] levi#6206
What did it go

[14-Feb-20 01:26 PM] Coconut#8762
zigveils is really really really strong

[14-Feb-20 01:28 PM] hongli#4483
zig seems like the only like 100% certainly broken aspect of veils to me

[14-Feb-20 01:28 PM] hongli#4483
i don't think that veils w.o zig won't be strong but

[14-Feb-20 01:29 PM] Coconut#8762
I haven't really played with smashers yet

[14-Feb-20 01:29 PM] hongli#4483
i think the play is to midtier zigs out, then later on after we decide what to do with veils we can work w zig

[14-Feb-20 01:29 PM] Coconut#8762
but I think zigveils is kinda nutty

[14-Feb-20 01:29 PM] hongli#4483
like if we keep them then zig probs stays banned, and if we ban veils then we can retest zig

[14-Feb-20 01:30 PM] hongli#4483
idk how broken necessarily smashers+veils would be

[14-Feb-20 01:30 PM] hongli#4483
what smashers do we have? squirtle & dwebble?

[14-Feb-20 01:31 PM] BurntZebra#8147
shellder

[14-Feb-20 01:31 PM] Coconut#8762
shellder

[14-Feb-20 01:31 PM] Coconut#8762
is the big one

[14-Feb-20 01:31 PM] hongli#4483
right shell as well

[14-Feb-20 01:31 PM] Shrug#7659
but also vulla is a smasher

[14-Feb-20 01:31 PM] BurntZebra#8147
theres also np vull/np spritz

[14-Feb-20 01:33 PM] hongli#4483
np vull/np spritz i reckon have a fair amount of counterplay under veils

[14-Feb-20 01:33 PM] hongli#4483
with things getting knock back too

[14-Feb-20 01:33 PM] BurntZebra#8147
the only veils abusers we're missing are like clamperl/magby?

[14-Feb-20 01:33 PM] hongli#4483
i think shell won't be super broken?

[14-Feb-20 01:33 PM] BurntZebra#8147
compared to last gen

[14-Feb-20 01:33 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i guess smash tirt was on veils occasionally

[14-Feb-20 01:33 PM] hongli#4483
but i'm open to being shown o/w

[14-Feb-20 01:34 PM] Coconut#8762
I think we should do something

[14-Feb-20 01:34 PM] Coconut#8762
before next week starts

[14-Feb-20 01:34 PM] Coconut#8762
this seems like a building nightmare.

[14-Feb-20 01:34 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i think zig is the best thing to ban

[14-Feb-20 01:34 PM] BurntZebra#8147
its obv the best thing behind veils

[14-Feb-20 01:34 PM] BurntZebra#8147
and its really easy to set up with memento outside of veils

[14-Feb-20 01:34 PM] BurntZebra#8147
once zig is gone

[14-Feb-20 01:34 PM] BurntZebra#8147
veils doesnt seem that much better than it was in gen 7

[14-Feb-20 01:35 PM] Coconut#8762
gonna throw together some builds of ziggy without veils

[14-Feb-20 01:35 PM] Coconut#8762
before I agree with that

[14-Feb-20 01:35 PM] hongli#4483
onix having body press + head smash

[14-Feb-20 01:35 PM] brewfasa#4532
again idk why we keep lumping veils and zig together

[14-Feb-20 01:35 PM] hongli#4483
makes me think zigs isnt necessarily broken outside of veils

[14-Feb-20 01:35 PM] hongli#4483
but idk yeah

[14-Feb-20 01:36 PM] hongli#4483
it might still be

[14-Feb-20 01:36 PM] BurntZebra#8147
well this is yet another thing

[14-Feb-20 01:36 PM] BurntZebra#8147
that trapinch enables to an unhealthy extent

[14-Feb-20 01:36 PM] Coconut#8762
don't forget diglett in veils too

[14-Feb-20 01:36 PM] BurntZebra#8147
like yeah pawn/onix mess up zig

[14-Feb-20 01:37 PM] hongli#4483
would you be running pinch with zig

[14-Feb-20 01:37 PM] Coconut#8762
who can reliably revenge a lot of stupid things

[14-Feb-20 01:37 PM] hongli#4483
i thought you always run dig for memento

[14-Feb-20 01:37 PM] brewfasa#4532
ye I feel like dig is the better support

[14-Feb-20 01:37 PM] BurntZebra#8147
could run a different memento user

[14-Feb-20 01:37 PM] Coconut#8762
and memento

[14-Feb-20 01:37 PM] brewfasa#4532
PaRtInG sHoT

[14-Feb-20 01:37 PM] brewfasa#4532
is that just Pancham

[14-Feb-20 01:38 PM] Coconut#8762
yes.

[14-Feb-20 02:02 PM] Shrug#7659
i think it's the veil mech that does it

[14-Feb-20 02:02 PM] Shrug#7659
u gotta be afraid of everything

[14-Feb-20 02:45 PM] tazz#5495
zig won vs standard but lost vs ferro/onix/timburr team where it had more trouble

[14-Feb-20 02:46 PM] tazz#5495
its definitely not going to bust open every team but I think it warps the meta too much, you have to run so much shit to not lose to it

[14-Feb-20 03:12 PM] BurntZebra#8147
yeah you can def adjust your builds to not lose

[14-Feb-20 03:12 PM] BurntZebra#8147
but same could be said for other things we've banned

[14-Feb-20 03:12 PM] BurntZebra#8147
so eh

[14-Feb-20 03:24 PM] levi#6206
The meta just shifted on wed and today, how can there be a standard yet

[14-Feb-20 03:27 PM] Coconut#8762
I think "standard" implies non-veils

[14-Feb-20 03:41 PM] brewfasa#4532
nah he just meant

[14-Feb-20 03:41 PM] brewfasa#4532
non onix / timb / ferro

[14-Feb-20 03:41 PM] brewfasa#4532
on the same squad

[14-Feb-20 03:41 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i mean maybe zig could be balanced?

[14-Feb-20 03:41 PM] BurntZebra#8147
like a generic team of onix vull timburr oddish all pretty much stop zig from setting up

[14-Feb-20 03:41 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i guess depends on what those last 2 are

[14-Feb-20 03:42 PM] BurntZebra#8147
munch should be fine vs zig in a 1v1

[14-Feb-20 03:43 PM] BurntZebra#8147
curse on the drum, then you live espeed and ohko with dedge

[14-Feb-20 03:44 PM] brewfasa#4532
don’t u just edge

[14-Feb-20 03:44 PM] brewfasa#4532
does zig live

[14-Feb-20 03:44 PM] BurntZebra#8147
zig lives

[14-Feb-20 03:44 PM] BurntZebra#8147
unless youre adamant max attack in which case its a roll

[14-Feb-20 03:44 PM] brewfasa#4532
ah

[14-Feb-20 03:45 PM] BurntZebra#8147
and no one really runs max adamant munch atm

[14-Feb-20 03:45 PM] BurntZebra#8147
actually return zigzagoon (or dedge?) would beat munch

[14-Feb-20 03:46 PM] BurntZebra#8147
nvm i forgot return got nuked

[14-Feb-20 03:49 PM] BurntZebra#8147
so zig vs munch is sort of a 50/50

[14-Feb-20 03:50 PM] BurntZebra#8147
depends on zig last move though

[14-Feb-20 04:00 PM] Coconut#8762
I feel like zig coverage isn't strong enough to win every matchup

[14-Feb-20 04:00 PM] Coconut#8762
but guessing zig coverage is bad and shouldn't have to be done in order to win

[14-Feb-20 04:29 PM] brewfasa#4532
what coverage are u guessing

[14-Feb-20 04:38 PM] BurntZebra#8147
you have to guess if zig has dedge or not

[14-Feb-20 04:39 PM] BurntZebra#8147
if you curse vs drum and zig is dedge

[14-Feb-20 04:39 PM] BurntZebra#8147
then you die to dedge

[14-Feb-20 04:39 PM] BurntZebra#8147
and zig is at 55% hp

[14-Feb-20 04:39 PM] BurntZebra#8147
if you curse vs drum and zig isnt dedge, then you live espeed and ohko with dedge (or it thieves your bj)

[14-Feb-20 04:40 PM] BurntZebra#8147
if you straight up attack zig

[14-Feb-20 04:40 PM] BurntZebra#8147
then zig will kill you with espeed

[14-Feb-20 04:51 PM] Coconut#8762
seed bomb/thief/dedge

[14-Feb-20 04:52 PM] Coconut#8762
is the coverage guessing game.

[14-Feb-20 04:59 PM] brewfasa#4532
ye ig

[14-Feb-20 04:59 PM] brewfasa#4532
idk how much guessing ur involving

[14-Feb-20 04:59 PM] brewfasa#4532
actually in game

[14-Feb-20 05:00 PM] brewfasa#4532
vs a mon like zig

[14-Feb-20 08:35 PM] Shrug#7659
Reiterating my desire to get rid of it before next week so we don’t embarrass ourselves

[14-Feb-20 08:39 PM] LilyAC#7887
even if veils turns out to be broken how is it embarrassing

[14-Feb-20 08:40 PM] Shrug#7659
8 dudes using the win button strat

[14-Feb-20 08:40 PM] levi#6206
it'd be fresh off a meta change

[14-Feb-20 08:40 PM] Shrug#7659
And always the ugliest games

[14-Feb-20 08:40 PM] levi#6206
so idt we'd be judged

[14-Feb-20 08:41 PM] levi#6206
i think it's comfortably broken though

[14-Feb-20 08:41 PM] Shrug#7659
Webs games are also ugly

[14-Feb-20 09:25 PM] Coconut#8762
I think that

[14-Feb-20 09:25 PM] Coconut#8762
you guys are desperate for a win

[14-Feb-20 09:25 PM] Coconut#8762
and nearly everyone will try to cheese

[14-Feb-20 09:26 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i mean this week is either gonna be cheese or anti cheese

[14-Feb-20 09:26 PM] Serene Grace#5243
if we all think its broken why dont we ban and retest

[14-Feb-20 09:27 PM] Serene Grace#5243
its a consensus isnt it that its going to be very very broken

[14-Feb-20 09:27 PM] Serene Grace#5243
its just that we need time to make a deciision

[14-Feb-20 09:27 PM] BurntZebra#8147
star opposed

[14-Feb-20 09:28 PM] BurntZebra#8147
fatty also opposed a straight quickban i think

[14-Feb-20 09:39 PM] Quote#9846
is it ziggy or veil tho? The impression I'm getting is that it could be either one

[14-Feb-20 09:40 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i think theres like a 90% its ziggy

[14-Feb-20 09:40 PM] hongli#4483
i think it's safe to say that ziggy is broken w veils support

[14-Feb-20 09:41 PM] hongli#4483
unclear as to whether or not it is w.o them, and whether or not veils are overbearing w.o ziggy

[14-Feb-20 09:41 PM] BurntZebra#8147
theres like a 65-70% chance that ziggy is broken w/o veils

[14-Feb-20 09:41 PM] hongli#4483
so why don't we just treat this like we did cherry+pix

[14-Feb-20 09:41 PM] hongli#4483
and we can always revisit it when we've had more time for the meta to develop

[14-Feb-20 09:41 PM] levi#6206
as long as we narrow that there -is- a broken thing

[14-Feb-20 09:42 PM] levi#6206
i think revisiting is a pretty minimal concern yea

[14-Feb-20 09:42 PM] levi#6206
my personal leaning is that ziggy is the issue as well

[14-Feb-20 09:42 PM] Quote#9846
yeah there definitely is a broken element here, it's just difficult to determine exactly what it could be

[14-Feb-20 09:42 PM] BurntZebra#8147
well

[14-Feb-20 09:42 PM] Quote#9846
ziggy's probably still dumb with memento support

[14-Feb-20 09:42 PM] BurntZebra#8147
veils havent gotten significantly better than it was last gen

[14-Feb-20 09:43 PM] BurntZebra#8147
defog timburr helps

[14-Feb-20 09:43 PM] BurntZebra#8147
but also lost stuff like snivy/abra

[14-Feb-20 09:43 PM] BurntZebra#8147
and gastly

[14-Feb-20 09:43 PM] BurntZebra#8147
w

[14-Feb-20 09:43 PM] BurntZebra#8147
which could clean up veils teams

[14-Feb-20 09:43 PM] BurntZebra#8147
if they didnt sweep with their first round of veils

[14-Feb-20 09:43 PM] Quote#9846
we also have different abusers than before

[14-Feb-20 09:43 PM] BurntZebra#8147
the abusers are like 75% the same

[14-Feb-20 09:44 PM] BurntZebra#8147
missing magby/clamperl

[14-Feb-20 09:44 PM] Quote#9846
we have cutie now tho

[14-Feb-20 09:44 PM] BurntZebra#8147
cutie doesnt feel that good in veils

[14-Feb-20 09:45 PM] BurntZebra#8147
it doesnt power past ferro/munch even behind veils

[14-Feb-20 09:45 PM] hongli#4483
yeah idt cutie is a big boon for veils

[14-Feb-20 09:45 PM] BurntZebra#8147
like i think np spritz is better still

[14-Feb-20 09:45 PM] BurntZebra#8147
going +2 sp atk in one go

[14-Feb-20 09:45 PM] BurntZebra#8147
is a lot better for veils

[14-Feb-20 09:46 PM] Quote#9846
yea, I just thought cutie because it sets up so easily, especially with a timburr around

[14-Feb-20 09:46 PM] hongli#4483
maybe it wouldn't be bad like

[14-Feb-20 09:46 PM] hongli#4483
with a pivot set

[14-Feb-20 09:46 PM] hongli#4483
where you have smth else on your team that can abuse ferro/munch

[14-Feb-20 09:46 PM] Quote#9846
seems like one of those really nice secondary wincons

[14-Feb-20 09:47 PM] hongli#4483
also benefits from less munch

[14-Feb-20 09:47 PM] hongli#4483
w knock spam being back again

[14-Feb-20 09:48 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i guess theres less reason to run munch now

[14-Feb-20 09:48 PM] BurntZebra#8147
now youd probably run ferroseed or ponyta to deal w/ cutie

[14-Feb-20 09:48 PM] BurntZebra#8147
although pony does not work vs uturn cutie+dig

[14-Feb-20 09:49 PM] Quote#9846
yea it's just another option

[14-Feb-20 09:49 PM] Quote#9846
the main sweepers still seems to be ziggy/shellder/vull

[14-Feb-20 09:51 PM] Quote#9846
but I think ziggy being broken w/o veil is more likely than veil being broken w/o ziggy

[14-Feb-20 09:51 PM] Quote#9846
especially since you can use support other than veil for ziggy

[14-Feb-20 09:52 PM] hongli#4483
would zig still be broken though

[14-Feb-20 09:52 PM] hongli#4483
without support from trappers

[14-Feb-20 09:52 PM] hongli#4483
in a hypothetical where veils are broken even w.o zig

[14-Feb-20 09:53 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i mean i think so

[14-Feb-20 09:53 PM] BurntZebra#8147
like if youre running pawniard as your zig answer

[14-Feb-20 09:53 PM] BurntZebra#8147
as soon as you switch into vull

[14-Feb-20 09:53 PM] BurntZebra#8147
you can no longer survive an attack from zigzagoon

[14-Feb-20 09:55 PM] hongli#4483
i was mostly thinking in the sense that

[14-Feb-20 09:55 PM] hongli#4483
dig makes it incredibly easy to choose when you can set up

[14-Feb-20 09:55 PM] hongli#4483
w memento

[14-Feb-20 09:55 PM] Quote#9846
memento in general makes ziggy sweeps a joke

[14-Feb-20 09:55 PM] hongli#4483
the other memento users aren't that great, and you can also just switch out whatever's in to something that can stop a zig sweep even while memento'd

[14-Feb-20 09:56 PM] hongli#4483
so it'd still be strong but like

[14-Feb-20 09:56 PM] hongli#4483
much harder to get to the point where you can set up

[14-Feb-20 09:57 PM] Quote#9846
if this is the situation though then I'd still prefer a ziggy ban because banning veil because of a single really good abuser seems dumb

[14-Feb-20 09:57 PM] BurntZebra#8147
memento isnt even necessary

[14-Feb-20 09:57 PM] hongli#4483
yeah i was thinking

[14-Feb-20 09:57 PM] BurntZebra#8147
unless every team runs 6 mons that ohko zig

[14-Feb-20 09:57 PM] BurntZebra#8147
or have knock off

[14-Feb-20 09:57 PM] hongli#4483
if veils turns out to be broken regardless of zig

[14-Feb-20 09:57 PM] hongli#4483
things like haze mar/encore spritz aren't terrible too

[14-Feb-20 09:58 PM] BurntZebra#8147
like even something like eviolite cutiefly is enough to let zig set up

[14-Feb-20 09:58 PM] BurntZebra#8147
or np vullaby

[14-Feb-20 09:58 PM] BurntZebra#8147
or non encore spritzee

[14-Feb-20 09:58 PM] BurntZebra#8147
idk whos running haze mareanie though

[14-Feb-20 09:59 PM] hongli#4483
it was a nice add on teams that couldn't afford to let floon set up on mar

[14-Feb-20 09:59 PM] hongli#4483
imo

[14-Feb-20 10:00 PM] hongli#4483
but yeah floon's gone now anyways

[14-Feb-20 10:00 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i mean pre knock off mareanie

[14-Feb-20 10:00 PM] BurntZebra#8147
everyones running iron defense or t spikes

[14-Feb-20 10:00 PM] BurntZebra#8147
as last move

[14-Feb-20 10:01 PM] hongli#4483
not having sludge bomb

[14-Feb-20 10:01 PM] hongli#4483
if u have other things for fairies/oddish

[14-Feb-20 10:01 PM] hongli#4483
isnt the worst

[14-Feb-20 10:01 PM] BurntZebra#8147
if you have other things for fairies/shellder/oddish/corphish

[14-Feb-20 10:01 PM] BurntZebra#8147
wtf are you running mareanie for

[14-Feb-20 10:01 PM] hongli#4483
well mar isnt exactly

[14-Feb-20 10:01 PM] hongli#4483
the best answer for spritz/qt/oddish to begin with

[14-Feb-20 10:01 PM] Coconut#8762
mareanie's just a good pocket monster

[14-Feb-20 10:02 PM] hongli#4483
yeah

[14-Feb-20 10:02 PM] Quote#9846
mareanie likes to check everything a little bit

[14-Feb-20 10:02 PM] Coconut#8762
soft checks a lot of things

[14-Feb-20 10:02 PM] BurntZebra#8147
mareanie tanks hits from oddish pretty well

[14-Feb-20 10:02 PM] BurntZebra#8147
as long as something else is sleep foddered

[14-Feb-20 10:02 PM] Coconut#8762
mareanie isn't a great answer

[14-Feb-20 10:02 PM] Coconut#8762
but it's an answer

[14-Feb-20 10:02 PM] Coconut#8762
what's this have to do with apix or ziggy though

[14-Feb-20 10:03 PM] starmaster#8286
i think its bad looks to theoryban smth thats never been broken b4 even if its likely it might be

[14-Feb-20 10:03 PM] BurntZebra#8147
doka suggested haze mareanie

[14-Feb-20 10:03 PM] BurntZebra#8147
as a counter to drum zigzagoon

[14-Feb-20 10:03 PM] starmaster#8286
especially when it doesnt kill ppl to build around it

[14-Feb-20 10:03 PM] starmaster#8286
for 1 week

[14-Feb-20 10:03 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i thought that was dumb

[14-Feb-20 10:03 PM] starmaster#8286
while we figure it out

[14-Feb-20 10:03 PM] hongli#4483
not as a hard counter

[14-Feb-20 10:03 PM] hongli#4483
i was just saying that it's much harder for zig to actually set up

[14-Feb-20 10:03 PM] starmaster#8286
it doesnt require insane effort to zig proof a team

[14-Feb-20 10:03 PM] hongli#4483
w.o memento support from dig

[14-Feb-20 10:03 PM] hongli#4483
and listed that as an example of smth mar could run to prevent getting set up on

[14-Feb-20 10:04 PM] BurntZebra#8147
feels like a big stretch

[14-Feb-20 10:04 PM] BurntZebra#8147
when you could be running knock off

[14-Feb-20 10:04 PM] BurntZebra#8147
which is literally useful in every matchup

[14-Feb-20 10:05 PM] Quote#9846
I went into this thinking that we should just see how the week plays out, but early impressions already suggest that there's a big issue

[14-Feb-20 10:05 PM] Quote#9846
and using SPL as a testing ground of all things isn't the most appropriate

[14-Feb-20 10:05 PM] starmaster#8286
idk i dont think its that big an issue

[14-Feb-20 10:05 PM] starmaster#8286
its not like we're going to be the only tier with a weird week lol

[14-Feb-20 10:05 PM] Quote#9846
I don't think so either, but I'm not an SPL player so my opinion isn't as valid

[14-Feb-20 10:05 PM] hongli#4483
it's just one week tops and it's not like we're getting in next spl anyways right

[14-Feb-20 10:06 PM] Coconut#8762
don't say that yet!

[14-Feb-20 10:06 PM] hongli#4483
i mean ideally i think zig should be banned but i don't think it'd be the worst thing ever

[14-Feb-20 10:06 PM] hongli#4483
if we wait

[14-Feb-20 10:06 PM] Coconut#8762
our tour rep needs to be high anyway.

[14-Feb-20 10:06 PM] Quote#9846
star does make a good point tho

[14-Feb-20 10:06 PM] Quote#9846
all the tiers are gonna be fucked this week

[14-Feb-20 10:06 PM] Quote#9846
so lol

[14-Feb-20 10:06 PM] Coconut#8762
right but let's try

[14-Feb-20 10:06 PM] Coconut#8762
to not be fucked

[14-Feb-20 10:06 PM] starmaster#8286
theorybanning smth that hasnt ever been broken in practice will never sit right w/ me

[14-Feb-20 10:07 PM] Coconut#8762
see normally I'd agree

[14-Feb-20 10:07 PM] Coconut#8762
but last gen we removed more elements than we added

[14-Feb-20 10:07 PM] starmaster#8286
ya ofc its a diff meta and im not denying that

[14-Feb-20 10:07 PM] starmaster#8286
its more favorable to zig

[14-Feb-20 10:07 PM] starmaster#8286
but i dont think zig is so absurd on paper that it justifies a drifloon/sun level ban

[14-Feb-20 10:08 PM] Coconut#8762
honestly, and I know this is an unpopular opinion

[14-Feb-20 10:08 PM] Coconut#8762
I wouldn't be opposed to banning literally every new form of every new mon

[14-Feb-20 10:08 PM] Coconut#8762
that we just got

[14-Feb-20 10:08 PM] Coconut#8762
and figuring it out after SPL

[14-Feb-20 10:09 PM] BurntZebra#8147
even like alola zigzagoon?

[14-Feb-20 10:09 PM] Quote#9846
that sounds like an awful take

[14-Feb-20 10:09 PM] BurntZebra#8147
or w/e random forms

[14-Feb-20 10:10 PM] Quote#9846
that's waaaaay too extreme of a move to make

[14-Feb-20 10:10 PM] Quote#9846
we got new stuff, we have to accept that it's all here

[14-Feb-20 10:10 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i guess itd be basically preserving the current meta but in a theoretical world where we banned floon+pix

[14-Feb-20 10:10 PM] BurntZebra#8147
and some stuff gets knock off

[14-Feb-20 10:10 PM] Coconut#8762
any new mon

[14-Feb-20 10:10 PM] Coconut#8762
introduced

[14-Feb-20 10:11 PM] Quote#9846
it's also really uneven to ban the mons and not the moves

[14-Feb-20 10:11 PM] Quote#9846
feels like we're picking and choosing because we're not happy or something

[14-Feb-20 10:11 PM] hongli#4483
yeah if there weren't any movepool changes it'd be one thing

[14-Feb-20 10:11 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i dont think the new mons are balancing the added moves

[14-Feb-20 10:11 PM] Coconut#8762
it's not my preferred change to the meta

[14-Feb-20 10:11 PM] Coconut#8762
but I wouldn't be opposed to it

[14-Feb-20 10:11 PM] Coconut#8762
at this point

[14-Feb-20 10:11 PM] Quote#9846
I'm strongly opposed

[14-Feb-20 10:11 PM] Quote#9846
a change like that comes off as arbitrary af

[14-Feb-20 10:11 PM] Quote#9846
if they were all broken af that would be one thing

[14-Feb-20 10:12 PM] Quote#9846
but that isn't even the case here

[14-Feb-20 10:12 PM] Coconut#8762
sure, we be banning things that aren't broken, but it's at the cost of a stable meta that we know works

[14-Feb-20 10:12 PM] Quote#9846
sorry, that just gives the impression that we're either afraid of change or we're bending over backwards way too hard for SPL

[14-Feb-20 10:12 PM] Coconut#8762
and the remaining changes are small, while the bans we made are easily reversible

[14-Feb-20 10:12 PM] Coconut#8762
it's not my preferred way of going about this

[14-Feb-20 10:12 PM] Coconut#8762
that'd be banning zig

[14-Feb-20 10:13 PM] Quote#9846
keep in mind that all the other metas received way more mons and wouldn't even think of doing this

[14-Feb-20 10:13 PM] Quote#9846
it would make us look really bad

[14-Feb-20 10:13 PM] Coconut#8762
possibly.

[14-Feb-20 10:13 PM] Quote#9846
no I think we would be a laughing stock

[14-Feb-20 10:41 PM] starmaster#8286
we'd look like complete clowns

[14-Feb-20 10:41 PM] starmaster#8286
for sure

[14-Feb-20 11:35 PM] levi#6206
if the council was unanimous then thered be nothing to clown

[14-Feb-20 11:35 PM] levi#6206
im 100% sure of this

[14-Feb-20 11:36 PM] levi#6206
but fwiw

[14-Feb-20 11:36 PM] levi#6206
i dont think ziggy would be broken w.o trappers

[14-Feb-20 11:36 PM] levi#6206
im kind of interested in hearing more of what doka has on that actually

[14-Feb-20 11:36 PM] levi#6206
wearing down checks w.o trappers never rlly works the same way bc it means you're going fully offensive

[14-Feb-20 11:38 PM] levi#6206
and that gives them room to sack more easily

[14-Feb-20 11:43 PM] Quote#9846
another reason to ban diglett?

[14-Feb-20 11:43 PM] Quote#9846
sounds good to me

[14-Feb-20 11:44 PM] levi#6206
i dont think banning dig alone would do the trick

[14-Feb-20 11:44 PM] levi#6206
i guess it'd be the first step

[14-Feb-20 11:45 PM] hongli#4483
this was just a hypothetical for if we decide veils are broken even w.o zig

[14-Feb-20 11:46 PM] hongli#4483
there r probs more important things to be discussing rn

[14-Feb-20 11:47 PM] levi#6206
i think this is a real path to consider idk

[14-Feb-20 11:48 PM] levi#6206
veils + trappers

[14-Feb-20 11:48 PM] levi#6206
bc again, trappers do push a few other things to borderline at least

[14-Feb-20 11:49 PM] Quote#9846
they all support each other in a roundabout way

[14-Feb-20 11:49 PM] hongli#4483
does diglett push anything in specific to borderline brokenness

[14-Feb-20 11:50 PM] hongli#4483
i hate dig a ton and think the meta would be much more enjoyable w.o it but it's hard for me to view it in a similar manner to pinch

[14-Feb-20 11:54 PM] Quote#9846
are you guys still against an Arena Trap suspect?

[14-Feb-20 11:55 PM] Quote#9846
I recall seeing argument that Diglett and Trapinch do enough of their own support to justify looking at them separately and that suspecting Arena Trap would be considered a cop out.

[14-Feb-20 11:59 PM] levi#6206
i think diglett requires more support from pinch to get its traps but ultimately dont see it as being enormously less effective

[15-Feb-20 12:05 AM] hongli#4483
i don't think it's necessarily less effective either, it's just an issue of reliability of trapping the things it wants to

[15-Feb-20 12:07 AM] hongli#4483
diglett is more high risk high reward and you often times need to do some doubling in order to get it in vs the target you want

[15-Feb-20 12:08 AM] hongli#4483
and if you get that wrong then dig is just like flat out dead since it's defenses r paper thin

[15-Feb-20 12:10 AM] hongli#4483
pinch doesn't really have that issue w what it wants to trap. even though it's less useful after successfully trapping something since it's at like 1hp, it can still also use first impression to pick off weakened things later on in the match as well

[15-Feb-20 12:13 AM] hongli#4483
i'd be interested in hearing why @levi changed his mind though wrt dig since iirc he's always held the opinion that dig promotes good play and is an overall positive presence for the meta

[15-Feb-20 12:13 AM] levi#6206
bc it's potentially breaking things

[15-Feb-20 12:13 AM] levi#6206
i never considered a dig core to be broken before this

[15-Feb-20 12:14 AM] levi#6206
i dont consider promoting good play to be a real consideration for tering fwiw

[15-Feb-20 12:14 AM] levi#6206
tiering*

[15-Feb-20 12:14 AM] levi#6206
or it being a subjectively positive presence

[15-Feb-20 12:14 AM] levi#6206
those were moreso against arguments that it was inherently unhealthy or unfun and so on, which i also dont think should be real considerations for tiering

[15-Feb-20 12:15 AM] hongli#4483
ah

[15-Feb-20 12:15 AM] hongli#4483
is the core you're referencing zigdig?

[15-Feb-20 12:15 AM] hongli#4483
if there's only one broken core then wouldn't it be more beneficial to ban the mon that dig supports

[15-Feb-20 12:16 AM] levi#6206
if its the only core then yes

[15-Feb-20 12:16 AM] hongli#4483
like zig doesn't really offer much to the meta on its own, and dig gives offensive teams the ability to deal w hard hitting speedy mons like ponyta+lo qt

[15-Feb-20 12:17 AM] levi#6206
im like 75% sure that vulldig is going to become an issue in the near future anyways though

[15-Feb-20 12:26 AM] hongli#4483
what would we do if we don't ban veils so zig is still banned regardless

[15-Feb-20 12:26 AM] hongli#4483
and vulldig is the only core

[15-Feb-20 12:26 AM] levi#6206
ban vull

[15-Feb-20 12:27 AM] levi#6206
😡 😡 😡

[15-Feb-20 12:27 AM] Quote#9846
no thanks

[15-Feb-20 12:27 AM] hongli#4483
let's compromise and ban both

[15-Feb-20 12:27 AM] hongli#4483
we all win

[15-Feb-20 12:28 AM] levi#6206
no way

[15-Feb-20 12:28 AM] levi#6206
i love diglett

[15-Feb-20 12:28 AM] levi#6206
but not if it breaks ziggy

[15-Feb-20 12:28 AM] hongli#4483
😡 😡 😡

[15-Feb-20 12:29 AM] Quote#9846
if dig does break ziggy I'm fine with booting ziggy

[15-Feb-20 02:42 AM] Coconut#8762
I hate doing this again

[15-Feb-20 02:43 AM] Coconut#8762
but we need to push diglett down the line

[15-Feb-20 02:43 AM] Coconut#8762
for the more immediate threat

[15-Feb-20 03:03 AM] Quote#9846
going after the more important threat is how cutie's managed to stay alive for so long

[15-Feb-20 10:31 AM] Shrug#7659
is there even a serious cutiefly outcry

[15-Feb-20 10:34 AM] Quote#9846
a serious one? Nah. A couple of people want it gone but no one here I think

[15-Feb-20 10:34 AM] BurntZebra#8147
I mean I think it’s sort of bad for the meta

[15-Feb-20 10:43 AM] Coconut#8762
I don't think cutiefly is any more dangerous than vullaby.

[15-Feb-20 11:07 AM] Quote#9846
I wouldn't say that around those pro-ban kids itc 🧐

[15-Feb-20 11:13 AM] Coconut#8762
I am the pro-ban kids

[15-Feb-20 11:18 AM] Quote#9846
yikes

[15-Feb-20 12:56 PM] Kingler#6931
With home, do we have a new VR thread?

[15-Feb-20 01:00 PM] Quote#9846
We'll be working on an update for it soon

[15-Feb-20 01:12 PM] levi#6206
You’re in the vrc kingler..

[15-Feb-20 02:54 PM] jake#8907
what do you guys think of new meta so far

[15-Feb-20 02:54 PM] jake#8907
i haven't had time to play until this weekend

[15-Feb-20 02:55 PM] Quote#9846
post-home post-floon/pix is pretty neat so far tbh

[15-Feb-20 02:56 PM] jake#8907
is pony any good? i was rly thinking it would be great in the pre-home meta if it were there

[15-Feb-20 03:05 PM] brewfasa#4532
seems like it has almost exactly the same place it had in sm

[15-Feb-20 03:06 PM] brewfasa#4532
basically only strong viable fire, great bulky wow check to phys mons

[15-Feb-20 03:06 PM] brewfasa#4532
strong enough to be offensive threat

[15-Feb-20 03:06 PM] brewfasa#4532
trappers still limit its ability

[16-Feb-20 01:16 PM] hongli#4483
has there been enough discussion

[16-Feb-20 01:16 PM] hongli#4483
for us to do a quickban on zig

[16-Feb-20 01:16 PM] hongli#4483
or would it still be in the autoban range

[16-Feb-20 01:20 PM] hongli#4483
if so im nomming we quickban zig

[16-Feb-20 01:39 PM] LilyAC#7887
zigs def not broken

[16-Feb-20 01:44 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i think zig is prob broken

[16-Feb-20 01:44 PM] BurntZebra#8147
so autoban means no forum discussion

[16-Feb-20 01:45 PM] BurntZebra#8147
quickban means we post on forums and we ban it unless theres some compelling argument?

[16-Feb-20 02:16 PM] Shrug#7659
seems like we have no fucking idea whats going on

[16-Feb-20 02:16 PM] Coconut#8762
that's the vibe I'm getting ya

[16-Feb-20 02:18 PM] LilyAC#7887
i agree

[16-Feb-20 02:19 PM] LilyAC#7887
quickbanning things is a bad idea when we have no idea whats going on

[16-Feb-20 02:20 PM] hongli#4483
how many people actually think zigs is fine though

[16-Feb-20 02:20 PM] hongli#4483
i was under the impression that a vast majority of ppl thought it was broken

[16-Feb-20 02:21 PM] hongli#4483
lily doesn't think so, starm thinks that it's not a good idea to qb it because of zigs not being broken at all before

[16-Feb-20 02:21 PM] hongli#4483
which isn't the same as thinking that it's not necessarily broken right now

[16-Feb-20 02:28 PM] BurntZebra#8147
im def fine with no autoban

[16-Feb-20 02:28 PM] BurntZebra#8147
but i think its a ridiculous constraint on teambuilding

[16-Feb-20 02:29 PM] Coconut#8762
it's quite difficult to keep track of what everyone thinks

[16-Feb-20 02:30 PM] Shrug#7659
we need a distinct, fully inclusive slate of options

[16-Feb-20 02:30 PM] Shrug#7659
everyone needs to weigh in

[16-Feb-20 02:30 PM] Shrug#7659
we consolidate to the most popular / likely

[16-Feb-20 02:30 PM] Shrug#7659
make a decision from there

[16-Feb-20 02:31 PM] BurntZebra#8147
strawpoll?

[16-Feb-20 02:37 PM] LilyAC#7887
what i shouldve said was

[16-Feb-20 02:38 PM] LilyAC#7887
zig def isnt quickban worthy (yet)

[16-Feb-20 02:38 PM] Coconut#8762
why not

[16-Feb-20 02:38 PM] LilyAC#7887
i think it probably isnt broken too but thats aside from the point

[16-Feb-20 02:38 PM] LilyAC#7887
we cant quickban something before we understand how good it is

[16-Feb-20 02:38 PM] LilyAC#7887
its been less than a week and theres been 0 tour games, theres no way we can know zig is broken

[16-Feb-20 02:38 PM] LilyAC#7887
its never been close to broken before

[16-Feb-20 02:39 PM] Coconut#8762
the previous metas had more things introduced than the current meta currently does

[16-Feb-20 02:39 PM] Coconut#8762
so using prior metas as an argument to justify brokeness is flawed

[16-Feb-20 02:40 PM] LilyAC#7887
yes thats a reason zig might be broken rn

[16-Feb-20 02:40 PM] Coconut#8762
and while I agree it's definitely been a short amount of time and we don't know for sure what is broken

[16-Feb-20 02:40 PM] LilyAC#7887
but how can u know that already

[16-Feb-20 02:40 PM] LilyAC#7887
when 0 replays of the current meta exist

[16-Feb-20 02:40 PM] LilyAC#7887
and its been less than a week

[16-Feb-20 02:40 PM] Coconut#8762
I think if you've played this meta you understand that it's highly unfavorable.

[16-Feb-20 02:40 PM] LilyAC#7887
ive played like 4 games

[16-Feb-20 02:40 PM] LilyAC#7887
its been fine

[16-Feb-20 02:41 PM] Coconut#8762
I've ran the gauntlet of different cheese and I think this is a very unstable metagame at the moment

[16-Feb-20 02:41 PM] Coconut#8762
but I am having trouble determining what exactly the best fix is

[16-Feb-20 02:42 PM] Coconut#8762
and it appears the rest of the council is undecided as well.

[16-Feb-20 02:42 PM] Coconut#8762
because many of us share vastly different opinions on the approach we should take moving forward

[16-Feb-20 02:42 PM] LilyAC#7887
ran against what?

[16-Feb-20 02:43 PM] LilyAC#7887
i really doubt youve played enough high level games already to be able to confidently conclude anything

[16-Feb-20 02:43 PM] Coconut#8762
Well yes, that's what I said

[16-Feb-20 02:43 PM] Coconut#8762
I haven't been able to figure out what I don't like about the meta

[16-Feb-20 02:43 PM] Coconut#8762
but I have figured out I don't like the meta

[16-Feb-20 02:44 PM] LilyAC#7887
you somehow concluded zig is highly unfavourable

[16-Feb-20 02:44 PM] Coconut#8762
when???

[16-Feb-20 02:45 PM] LilyAC#7887
you said it like just a few lines up as if it was something obvious

[16-Feb-20 02:45 PM] Coconut#8762
???

[16-Feb-20 02:45 PM] LilyAC#7887
឵឵ ឵឵Today at 19:40
I think if you've played this meta you understand that it's highly unfavorable.

[16-Feb-20 02:45 PM] Coconut#8762
I asked you why you think zig isn't banworthy

[16-Feb-20 02:45 PM] LilyAC#7887
did u not mean zig?

[16-Feb-20 02:45 PM] Coconut#8762
and I claimed that the metagame in general

[16-Feb-20 02:45 PM] Coconut#8762
is unstable

[16-Feb-20 02:46 PM] levi#6206
i think theres a good chance zig isnt broken

[16-Feb-20 02:46 PM] levi#6206
i spammed zig yesterday and kept on losing

[16-Feb-20 02:46 PM] hongli#4483
levi's really been on a downward spiral

[16-Feb-20 02:46 PM] hongli#4483
ever since spl 8 mids

[16-Feb-20 02:46 PM] LilyAC#7887
i assumed you meant zig is highly unfavourable

[16-Feb-20 02:47 PM] Coconut#8762
No I tried to clarify that the metagame is kinda shit to play

[16-Feb-20 02:47 PM] Coconut#8762
not specifically ziggy

[16-Feb-20 02:47 PM] LilyAC#7887
oh okay

[16-Feb-20 02:48 PM] LilyAC#7887
i guess we agree then

[16-Feb-20 02:48 PM] levi#6206
were you trying to say zig was banworthy then

[16-Feb-20 02:48 PM] levi#6206
i didnt rlly follow

[16-Feb-20 02:48 PM] LilyAC#7887
on not qbing zig?

[16-Feb-20 02:48 PM] Coconut#8762
I have no idea what is currently broken.

[16-Feb-20 02:48 PM] Coconut#8762
and it's very apparent to me

[16-Feb-20 02:48 PM] BurntZebra#8147
it feels like balance is really crappy right now

[16-Feb-20 02:48 PM] Coconut#8762
that we cannot reach a consensus in the council chat

[16-Feb-20 02:48 PM] Coconut#8762
but I can affirm

[16-Feb-20 02:48 PM] Coconut#8762
this current metagame sucks

[16-Feb-20 02:49 PM] BurntZebra#8147
lets bring back gastly

[16-Feb-20 02:49 PM] BurntZebra#8147
best zig answer

[16-Feb-20 02:49 PM] LilyAC#7887
facts

[16-Feb-20 02:49 PM] hongli#4483
gastly, much like recycle floon

[16-Feb-20 02:49 PM] Coconut#8762
gonna need sucker punch drfiloon back

[16-Feb-20 02:49 PM] hongli#4483
has no hands

[16-Feb-20 02:49 PM] Coconut#8762
to balance it.

[16-Feb-20 02:49 PM] hongli#4483
the signifier of a broken mon

[redacted]

[16-Feb-20 02:52 PM] BurntZebra#8147
zigzagoon must be a freak in bed

[redacted]

[16-Feb-20 02:52 PM] hongli#4483
i'd buy drifloon's bathwater

[redacted]

[16-Feb-20 06:30 PM] starmaster#8286
anyway tho

[16-Feb-20 06:30 PM] starmaster#8286
i still think ziggy should get an spl week for sure

[16-Feb-20 06:30 PM] starmaster#8286
we havent seen any tour play whatsoever in this meta

[16-Feb-20 06:30 PM] starmaster#8286
so it feels hella premature to quickban anything

[16-Feb-20 06:32 PM] hongli#4483
ok yeah im against banning it immediately now too

[16-Feb-20 06:32 PM] hongli#4483
i do think teambuildings gonna suck this week but

[16-Feb-20 06:33 PM] hongli#4483
i dont think it's like swirlix level, at the very least we can wait a week or two to see how the meta develops around it

[16-Feb-20 06:33 PM] levi#6206
zigzagoon isn’t even viable

[16-Feb-20 06:34 PM] levi#6206
this mon stinks