(9:51:03 PM) Secunda: A big one wouldn't.
(9:51:12 PM) Secunda: Realistically speaking.
(9:51:51 PM) Prima: That's arguable. Wolves only get one attack, horses get bites and hooves last I saw. Wolves are dangerous in groups since once the first trips you the rest are all rolling against prone AC, which at least approximates the danger of wolves, but... solo not so much.
(9:54:43 PM) Secunda: Gamewise, yes. Real world, not as much. A wolf of the same size as a horse, I mean.
(9:54:52 PM) Prima: Oh. Well. Maybe then.
(9:55:13 PM) Secunda: The game doesn't quite reflect that aspect in the rolls for some real-life creatures.
(9:55:24 PM) Secunda: Game-wise, a horse is pretty reliable.
(9:55:42 PM) Secunda: Makes me wonder how effective a lance-charger would be if his horse was killed.
(9:57:12 PM) Prima: Ah, yeah, a dire wolf has much more strength and HP. Lancers... vary. Some of their feats can still be used on foot, and some builds sacrifice some multiplier for their base damage, which is a little bit more versatile too.
(9:57:43 PM) Prima: They're at a disadvantage, yes. If they're taking lancer they're losing at least three off their multiplier for unstoppable charge and probably two more for a mighty charging lance.
(9:58:28 PM) Prima: It's... less crippling if they're a charge combo build, if they're a one-shot lancer they're losing a lot.
(9:58:28 PM) Secunda: So step 1 is usually "kill the damn horse" when faced with a lancer.
(9:58:45 PM) Prima: Step 1 is usually trip them, which dismounts them.
(9:59:19 PM) Secunda: Killing the horse via a powerful spell would make it impossible to mount it again.
(9:59:50 PM) Prima: Yeah, but given the tables in the DMG you should very possibly expect it to have even more HP than the rider, and any competent cavalier invests heavily in protecting it.
(10:00:23 PM) Secunda: Not overly hard to use spells to keep the horse from charging at all, really.
(10:00:33 PM) Prima: It is if it flies. Which it should.
(10:00:57 PM) Secunda: Flying horse? You can't charge while flying by spell, only wings.
(10:01:17 PM) Prima: Master Air grants wings. Wind Walk also allows you to "walk" while airborn.
(10:01:31 PM) Secunda: At a relatively slow speed.
(10:01:48 PM) Prima: Master Air gives Fly 90/Good. Wind Walk uses your normal landspeed.
(10:02:01 PM) Secunda: Does it give the mount wings?
(10:02:19 PM) Prima: Master Air, yes. Wind Walk isn't considered flight, it just lets you move through air by walking.
(10:02:45 PM) Secunda: Let's hear it for one-trick ponies. There's a pun there.
(10:02:47 PM) Prima: If you don't want anything that fancy you can also just jack the mount's jump check. There is a spell that gives up to +30.
(10:03:13 PM) Prima: ... and that hardly burns so much of your budget you can't get other tricks.
(10:03:41 PM) Secunda: Master Air is, I imagine, a high-level class ability.
(10:03:48 PM) Prima: It's a level 2 druid spell.
(10:03:56 PM) Secunda: From which book?
(10:04:00 PM) Prima: Spell Compendium.
(10:04:07 PM) Secunda: Absurdly powerful for that level.
(10:04:35 PM) Prima: Not really? I want to say fly is 3, I know Wind Walk is 4. Compared to fly the duration on master air is shorter and it limits your turning radius, which fly does not.
(10:05:07 PM) Secunda: Fly has distinct limitations. A flying mount, something typically a very rare thing indeed, from a 2nd level spell?
(10:05:22 PM) Secunda: Fly, you at the least can't charge from.
(10:05:49 PM) Prima: Um. There are plenty of sources on flying mounts. You can even just pop summon nature's ally or summon monster for one, if you want..
(10:06:07 PM) Prima: Some cavaliers prefer to get items with like unlimited phantom steed just so people can't kill their horses.
(10:06:15 PM) Prima: Um. Or are centaurs.
(10:06:23 PM) Secunda: *sigh.*
(10:06:33 PM) Secunda: To stop centaurs isn't difficult, I've found.
(10:06:51 PM) Secunda: It's fairly simple: 5' wide hallways.
(10:06:53 PM) Prima: You're correct that separating them from the horse -is- a good tactic, but... I don't get your need for it to be this giant, easily crippling weakness.
(10:07:51 PM) Secunda: Something with no weakness is impossible for a DM to counter without pouring a remarkable level of time and resources into an NPC that will just die in two rounds.
(10:08:00 PM) Secunda: But we've discussed this before. Templates and whatnot.
(10:08:33 PM) Prima: Um.
(10:10:36 PM) Prima: First off, there are at -least- two major families of charger spec that aren't cavaliers, three if you count airborne Power Dive builds a separate class (and their tactics are different enough that probably is fair). So... yeah, if you want to attack an extremely narrow category of builds (mounted lancers) then... yes, they're probably all going to be mounted and using lances. If yo uwant to expand that a little, Frenzied Berserker is a popular chaotic counterpart to the lawful Lancer since it has excellent base damage, and for larger characters with high strength Disciple of Thrym as well. War Hulk cavalry is also surprisingly effective since the lance mitigates the war hulk's lack of iterative atacks.
(10:11:22 PM) Prima: The War Hulk, especially, is going to contribute very different secondary capabilities than any of those classes since it also brings a quite strong ranged attack from its own class growth. So... don't talk to me about templates if you're going to give me a small template within which to debate this.
(10:11:22 PM) Secunda: And what works against a properly-built lancer of any kind?
(10:11:31 PM) Prima: Um, pike lines?
(10:11:46 PM) Secunda: Just jump over the pikes or fly over them.
(10:12:46 PM) Prima: One of the biggest threats to a lancer is pretty much any enemy with long reach, but especially polearms that will deal double against them when they charge. If you jump over the pikes you can't assault the pikemen, and fliers are critically vulnerable to bolas. Depending on stall speed also to nets. They also can't cover against projectiles, including mages.
(10:13:27 PM) Secunda: So, incredibly specialized attacks for incredily specialized builds.
(10:14:50 PM) Prima: Being surrounded is also a serious danger since it can block you from charging. Being a charger is part delicate maneuvering, part making spot judgements about how much danger to expose yourself to. Bac kto the pike thing, several good charger feats will provoke additional attacks of opportunity beyond the ones they get just for charging past someone's reach, so they can be critically vulnerable to them. And... um. A pike is a "specialized" build but it's also kind of a critical one for most forces, which reflects reality as much as it does D&D, so what precisely is the problem?
(10:15:10 PM) Secunda: Sour grapes.
(10:15:31 PM) Prima: Honestly it doesn't -need- to be more specialized in NPCs than just giving them long weapons with set vs. charge and using the set vs. charge (which is most polearms), and possibly like... fighter 2 with maybe combat reflexes and knockback, or monkey grip for a bigger pike.
(10:16:14 PM) Secunda: And that isn't intentionally making every encounter gimp the abilities of the character?
(10:16:28 PM) Prima: It is if that's -all- you field.
(10:16:58 PM) Prima: If you field mixed forces that use basic effective tactics so the party have to cooperate to unravel their formation? That's, um.. what strategy games are about.
(10:17:15 PM) Secunda: If I don't, you go after the vulnerable units first and then they aren't attacking who they're on the field to attack, and that build attacks the pikemen and they die like punks.
(10:17:46 PM) Prima: ... and? Hostile NPCs exist to die, the game is about what they do in the intervening time.
(10:18:12 PM) Prima: And I find that a hell of a lot more fun than the GM telling me "Trolololo, fuck off you're just benched for this encounter."
(10:18:53 PM) Prima: Weaknesses make the game interesting inasmuch as I have to be cognizant of them and plan my tactics around them, not when they're a ticket for the GM to decide whether or not I even get to play.
(10:18:58 PM) Secunda: Doing that for every single encounter is beyond my ability.
(10:19:51 PM) Prima: It's... that hard to set a rule for yourself to give every NPC maybe two feats that showcase the abilities of the weapons they're wielding?
(10:20:09 PM) Prima: Even, like... just have a basic distinction between swords, pikes and archers?
(10:20:21 PM) Secunda: Placing them into strategy-game mechanics breaks immersion for me.
(10:20:42 PM) Prima: ... Why? This is something real medieval armies do in the real world.