Discussing compulsions and addictions we should first start by discussing behaviors
<q> Anatomy of a Behavior
<q>   1. Trigger or cue
<q>   2. Action
<q>   3. Reward or punishment
<q> Some behaviors can be self rewarding
<q> Some behaviors are rewarding only in that they are a distraction
<q> usually from some form of anxiety or a bad environment
<q> A compulsion is a behavior that one feels a need to carry out. When an obsession or compulsion gets in the way of work or relationships, we might be diagnosed as having a disorder.
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<q> Compulsions mostly have a behavioral component, and not much of a chemical one. Anxiety might be an issue.
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<Cortana> Teaser for JohnEM - Breathe in...hold...out...relax. Everyone can use some more breathing in their day. - to view the full profile type: !view JohnEM
<SeducingSpirit> greeting JohnEM, I suppose you were wondering whether you were deep in trance before you go deep in trance
<subm^> Is an addiction a compulsion in that it must be carried out too? Is it not a compulsion, q?
<q> Addictions tend to be a bit more complicated
<q> they are more like a compulsion with a chemical component
<q> To break a compulsion we can eliminate the reward, punish the behavior, or interrupt and redirect the behavior.
<q> Aversion therapy might be used to eliminate some behaviors
* Saundra hugs q  sorry late
<subm^> What is aversion therapy, please?
<q> hi Saundra welcome back
<Saundra> smiles
<q> subm^, aversion therapy is where an action or drug it paired with a negative sensation
<q> in example if I were asked to touch a chocholate bar and received a shock each time
<q> I would eventually stop reaching for it
<q> aversion therapy is used for both addictions and compulsions
<q> however addictions have a tolerance component
<Saundra> not sure, is it important to know the aversion happens always?
<q> generally Saundra variable punishment is preferred
<Saundra> seems I would spend my time scheming to avoid it
<q> reach for it and get a shock, reach for it again and no punishment
<q> like a slot machine
<Saundra> and that works better?
<q> casinos are masters of behavioral psych
<q> indeed lol
<Saundra> really
<publicatgirl> out
* publicatgirl is now known as twilightisout
<q> if we get a reward every time, the second we dont get a reward we are less likely to reach it
<subm^> I  would think it would not in some instances, q
<q> in most instances it seems to work well in studies
<Saundra> how important is it to believe you can stop?
<q> in example with both people and lab rats. I would expect it is important Saundra
<q> but a person can be taken off of a drug without that belief.......but its much harder
<Saundra> nods  (and pretends she has not been called a lab rat)
<q> lol sorry
<Saundra> smiles
<mobileAngel> Hello world
<flora> Hello, mobileAngel. The world loves you.
<q> most of these studies that therapists and casionos use to modify behavior came from rat and dog studies first lol
<q> I think they try them out on simpler animals first then start to apply and test it on people
<Saundra> the unknown chance of reward seems clear for gambling and fishing etc - this seems somewhat opposite - unknown change of punishmnet?
<q> anyway in Pavlov's studies variable reward(or punishment) was more effective than a continuious one
<q> ah
<Saundra> nods
<q> well a consistent reward or punishment establishes a great short term behavior
<q> a variable reward or punishment establishes a great long term behavior
<q> its kind of a trade off
<subm^> Perhaps the disparity of no  punishment versus punishment   or no reward versus reward  makes it more difficult or easier depending ont eh behavior
<q> I expect so subm^
<q> if you give me a big dose of dopamine every time I hit a button you can bet I will hit that button a lot
<q> patients after surgery get a little morphene button thing
<q> and boy they hit that button a lot, they even build in a limiter to prevent OD
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<SeducingSpirit> welcome onix, please try not to think of being mindless as you gaze mindlessly
<q> addictions and compulsions both share a behavioral component
<onix> Hey everyone
<q> however addictions have a chemical component that makes them both dangerous and harder to break
<q> hi onix
<Saundra> hi onix
<onix> Hey q, hey Saundra. How are yous doing?
<mobileAngel> I never got a morpine button *pouts*
<Saundra> seems drug addictions are much more potent
<Saundra> good thanks
<q> when we flood our brain with a particular drug our brain will actually down regulate our receptors for that neurotransmitter in short this means:
<q> 1 we need more and more of the same drug to get the effect
<q> 2 the receptors that naturally rewarded us for social activities no longer work
<subm^> earlier and ealier too, correct?
<q> 3 if we try to quit cold turkey (all at once) we can expect horrific levels of depressive states and pain, withdrawal effects can be lethal in some cases
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<SeducingSpirit> please join us kozy, you may be seduced deeply now or later as you prefer
<onix> Good to hear :) what are you guys chatting about?
<q> 4 drugs have a side effect
<q> and subm^ I think so
<subm^> (addictions and compulsions)
<Saundra> onix, addictions and compulsions
<q> people wont want to wait to take the hit of their favorite drug
<q> I dont wait to have my coffee
<kozy> Hi
<Saundra> hi hi kozy
<q> my sugar filled coffee every morning
<q> if I dont have it I am difficult to get along with
<kozy> Hi Saundra!!!!
* kozy hugs Saundra
* Saundra hugs
<onix> Hey kozy, Sounds interesting
<q> of course coffee and sugar are both addictive in themselves but they are easy to get and legal
<Saundra> q is dicussing addictions and compulsions
<q> the problem is when whatever we are addicted to injures us, and may be illegal
<kozy> Hi onix
<kozy> Ok
<q> so if I had a bad liver and loved alcohol that would be a big problem,\
<Saundra> nods
<q> so our standard hypnotic and behavioral interventions will need tweaked a bit to be effective on addictions
<mobileAngel> as interesting as it seems, my timesheet is demanding 2 hours more work today; so I shall try to draw my attention away from the chat. Later folks.
<q> 12 step programs and things like Alcoholics Anonymous are ineffective(only 5% success rate) for two reasons:
<q> 1 no behavioral intervention
<q> 2 no addressing the chemical component
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<Cortana> Teaser for sissyjacqui - <insert witty comment here> - to view the full profile type: !view sissyjacqui
<SeducingSpirit> please join us sissyjacqui, let me take your mind and when you slip into trance you may have a nice new one
<q> (no treatment at all actually gets about a 5% success rate)
<Saundra> what additions work q?
<q> for one if we are using hypnosis we have an advantage
<q> we can find out if there is any trauma or loss or greif that caused the person to go on drugs
<q> the underlieing problem
<onix> Later mobileAngel. Does abstinence of alcohol not address the chemical component q?
<q> onix, not quite
<q> abstinence still leaves withdrawl
<q> generally when we apply behavioral interventions thats only half the battle
<q> we also want to have the person take personal responsibility and reduce their usage of the drug a little each week
<q> in this way a person can quit with very little withdrawl
<q> its how we wean patients off of morphene in hospitals
<q> the doctor lowers the dosage slowly over time
<q> we want to:
<q> 1 work with trauma and underlieing issues
<q> 2 aversion process of some kind
<q> 3 wean them off little by little
<q> 4 provide support
<onix> What do you mean by aversion process?
<q> start associating the drug with something negative onix
<q> like the chocholate bar example
* KawaiiBunny{T}_ wonders what the chat is about
<q> where every so often when I touch and or eat it I get a light zap
<q> or alcoholics are sometimes given Naltrexome by doctors
<q> which causes them to vomit and feel ill when they consume alcohol or cigarettes
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<SeducingSpirit> welcome sissy_joy, did you come back for your mind?  I think you forgot it last time you were here
<subm^> q- a very timely question- what about the opiods which were given for pain legally and then used too much and addiction increased dramatically with some  drug suppliers pushing the sales and thus we have  majorproblem?
<onix> Ok, makes sense.
<q> generally subm^ like with some drugs like Adderall
<q> the answer is to slowly wean off
<q> quitting cold turkey usually isnt safe or practical
<q> at least for opoids
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<SeducingSpirit> welcome callgirl-tina, please be comfortable, take off your shoes and leave your mind at the door
<q> subm^, the negative association does not have to be pain per se
<q> it can be an obnoxious odor or taste
<q> etc
<subm^> Aren't you fighting the logical weaning off with the  massive supply being pushed by a few very large suppliers?
<onix> Once someone is physically weaned off their addiction. Are their brains still wired for it q?
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<SeducingSpirit> greetings ditz-for-daze, please try not to drift so deep that you forget the pleasure of our room
<sissy_joy> Addiction can manifest in many forms, like cock addiction.
<q> well subm^ some patients intentionally cut their pills
<q> to reduce the dosage themselves over time
<q> because the doctor or hospital cannot or will not give them lower dosages
<q> also onix generally depends on the drug
<q> SSRIs for example have effects that can last up to 2 years
<ctrl-alt-me> what if the addiction isnt chemical in nature?
<q> I would probably classify it as a behavioral compulsion
<q> and use a similar process in that situation
<ctrl-alt-me> around here, many speak of hypnosis addiction..
<onix> I've known some smokers who have quit for years and say they could go straight back to it tomorrow
<ctrl-alt-me> when they dont get tranced enough they find it hard to focus.. hard to find the calmness of mind that trance provides
<subm^> I think the Governemnt (US) has severely decreased  the amount of narcotics  that are allowed to be prescribed because of the opioid US problem
<q> ctrl-alt-me, its probably a somewhat healthy addiction(hypnosis) but if they want to reduce it they can slowly wean off and get engaged in other things in life
<q> a lot of it in that case would be personal responsibility they wont stop using hypnosis unless they want to
<ctrl-alt-me> i wouldnt clasify it as healthy
<ctrl-alt-me> ive seen people who want to up the stakes each time...
<q> hmmmm
<q> that would be taking it too far probably
<q> a good question is what is really wrong
<q> what do they lack
<q> what else do they need in life
<q> what are they not doing that they need to do
<subm^> Great question about hypnosis addiction, cm
<q> indeed callgirl-tina
<q> oips
<ctrl-alt-me> many use hypnosis as an escape, like people would for any other drug
<Saundra> is anything that feels good potentially "addictive"
<ctrl-alt-me> the only difference is the chemicals are produced within our own minds
<callgirl-tina> Better ask James Brown
<Saundra> smiles
<q> I would probably tell the person to slowly reduce the amount of time they spend on it
<onix> Too much of anything can be bad for you
<q> ^^
* ctrl-alt-me nods
<Saundra> i'm still worrying and the sugar and coffee example
<q> lol true
<q> coffee is one of the most widely used stimulants
<subm^> What if the hypnotist is trying to gain more control of the subject?Does that not make it mudh more difficult to  just reduce the time by the subject, q?
<ctrl-alt-me> does the starbucks barista still have to ask your name, Saundra? ;)
<q> subm^, great question
<ctrl-alt-me> ooh, good example..
<Saundra> starbucks is too expensive for my degree of habit
<ctrl-alt-me> this could b expanded in a more general sense as well...
* q is a Folgers man
<ctrl-alt-me> the effects of peer pressure on addiction recovery...
<q> if the hypnotist is pushing for more control
<Saundra> well it seems that addiction as a concept includes consideration of harm and withdrawal?
<ctrl-alt-me> if you cannot on your own step away from whatever is influencing you to seek refuge in the addiction... how does one over come that addiction?
* Saundra gently leads CAM to her dungeon
<q> ctrl-alt-me, anyone that domineering that long would probably eventually push the envelope too far
<q> we cant pry someone away from a tist without consent :| and we really cannot force them to reduce their exposure
<q> at a point the person has to want to get better
<subm^> I think that is where a problem can occur, q
<Saundra> you overcome most withdrawal in a few days but the want part is harder
<q> Saundra, which kind of addiction?
<q> Heroin withdrawl can last weeks
<q> SSRI withdrawl can last up to a year
<q> trances tend to produce dopamine
<q> and adrenaline
<q> as a byproduce
<q> byproduct
<onix> Is there such thing as non-harmful addictions?
<Saundra> well I was thinking of narcotics and meth
<q> depends onix
<q> only if it doesnt crowd out family and work
<Saundra> you get really sick for a week
<q> and personal growth
<q> indeed Saundra
<q> of course part of withdrawl with narcotics is a feeling of depression
<q> a lack of interest
<q> the same neurotransmitters the drug tickles is the same that regulates our engagement and interest
<q> our tolerance to the drug means that normal engagement wont produce enough of these chemicals
<q> it can leave us emotionally crippled, the want is the knowledge that the only true happiness can come from the fix, its instinctual
<q> because our brain has shut off so many receptors to protect itself
<onix> So you could argue the only difference between an addiction and a hobby is that one negatively impacts you in some way?
<q> that would be my very generalized and practical definition onix
<Saundra> hobbies can interfere also
<q> they can
<Saundra> i think difficulty stopping might be improtant
<q> behaviors can go too far as can substance use
 Saundra subm^ sissy_joy SeducingSpirit spiral_gazer sissyjacqui sleepybox Spiral Stiny
<subm^> What do  they address?
<q> yeah Saundra it is pretty important
<q> sometimes we cant help people that do not want help
<ctrl-alt-me> kinda like "you dont have a drinking problem, until it becomes a problem?"
<callgirl-tina> Hmmm, it's called going out and doing stuff until you reach 65.  Only then is it called hobbies  ^_^
<q> ctrl-alt-me, yes
<Saundra> nods at tina
<q> and when someone has a severe addiction and or organ failure it can be necessary to seek professional and licensed help
<q> like the liver failure patient example
<Saundra> seems the definition is fuzzy
<q> indeed Saundra
<q> it depends on what the person wants to do with their life
<q> and what their obligations are
<Saundra> some even on hard drugs still seem to functions - like the big guy in hunger games?  until he ODd and died
<onix> So for people who get addicated to hobbys, is it easier to wean them off since its not nessare
<q> being afraid of heights isnt a serious disorder.........unless your an airline pilot
<onix> necessary a physical component?
<q> generally after a person starts weaning
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<SeducingSpirit> welcome Mr_Quiet, you may wonder why you feel so relaxed and such pleasure but it is better to just dream
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<q> they should engage in some kind of physical, mental, and social activities
<q> they need to have something to return to when the withdrawl finally goes away
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<callgirl-tina> Even then that isn't so much of a problem for a pilot because their perception isn't vertically down, but ahead, and following the earth's curviture.
<q> callgirl-tina, good point lol
* q will have to adjust his analogy
<subm^> Here is a question q- If a person does not want help. you said we cannot help them.....can't we use NLP and lableing and layereing to build the blocks to perhaps help change those positively who do not want help?
<q> we can encourage engagement using NLP subm^
<q> and we can try to interrupt and redirect their compulsion a little more each week
<q> but we get into an ethically fuzzy area
<q> as it depends on what their addiction is
<q> and if it really is harming them
<subm^> I was going to ask that next- the ethical area
<q> yep
<q> ethically it is fuzzy
<q> there are times when I might try to at the least slow a person's addiction down a bit
<Saundra> I'm addicted to ice cream and no harm ummm  except the extra pound or two
<q> lol
<q> same with my coffee and coffee breath
<onix> It would be different if you were diabetic
<q> indeed
<q> sometimes you can if you are desperate
<q> and the drug is particularly damaging
<q> convince a person to replace the addiction with another
<subm^> And the cost of th 200 gallons of chocoalte ise cream I send you every 2 weeks, Saundra
<q> to swap their addiction
<Saundra> so suppose opium was regulated and doses safe - could it be addictive but ok?
<q> I suppose so Saundra
<q> I only really see addiction as a problem when it gets in the way of life
<onix> It could be very easily abused but
<spiral_gazer> Isn't it technically not addiction if it doesn't interfere with your life?
<callgirl-tina> I can say, hand on heart, there's not a single thing or pastime where, if it was taken away from me for life, I would miss particularly badly.
<Saundra> meaning people would keep increasind dose
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<Saundra> and then it would clearly be harmful
<Saundra> so that aspext - a need for more
<Saundra> clearly a problem addiction
<q> Saundra, I would for example consider(ethically and legally this is fuzzy) an alcoholic friend with liver failure, he wont stop or refuses, it would be possible to convince that person to move to pot instead
<q> would that be unethical?
<q> pot does not destroy his liver
<q> but he hasnt really gotten better
<q> just swapped addictions
* sissy_joy has quit (Quit: adios)
<onix> its technically safer but its still swapping one addiction for another
<q> yep
<q> so we can ask ourselves
<q> do we need to end the addiction
<q> or swap it
<q> it may depend on weather you can get the person to wean off
<onix> Could you use it to wean them off on to "safer" and "safer addictions
<q> indeed
<q> pot is about as safe as you get
<q> its pretty hard to OD on it
<q> and it self weans
<spiral_gazer> I certainly know people who have attempted to quit smoking by eating carrot sticks when they get the nicotine craving
<q> (THC sticks to lipids in the brain)
<q> that is also a good idea spiral_gazer
<spiral_gazer> to try and redirect the craving
<subm^> If I uderstand the point correctly,  is it ethical to do even if a more positive result?   Or my point perhaps
<q> yep part of interrupt and redirect
<q> I would agree subm^
<q> at a point we care more about a persons physical health
<onix> But there's a big difference from the stoner who doesn't get much done pot user to the productive user
<q> and if convincing them to swap
<q> onix, good point
<q> but in the liver failure patient example
<q> a dead patient gets less done than a stoner
<q> its a specific and extreme example
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<q> not every alcoholic has a liver thats about to explode
<onix> So basically moderation is the key
<q> I think so
<q> risk assessment
<q> and moderation
<q> I think thats about it on addictions and compulsions
<q> swapping
<q> aversion
<q> chemical and behavioral components
<q> weaning
<subm^> Anyone have questions for q, please?
<spiral_gazer> What is the strangest thing you know someone is addicted to?
<q> ah
<q> I would have to say gasoline and tolene
<q> some people were addicted to huffing rubbing alcohol
<spiral_gazer> Solvents are not super healthy
<q> nope
<q> lol
<q> I knew someone that was addicted to gasoline, so much so they would drench their clothes in it
<spiral_gazer> wow
<q> and carborator cleaner
<q> yep
<spiral_gazer> fire hazard much
<q> and their close family were smokers......
<q> bad combination :P
<onix> i wasn't here for the start of the discussion so apologies if its already been asked but where does hypnosis addictions fall into all this?
<spiral_gazer> yikes
<q> lol yep
<q> and yes onix I think it could fall into either addiction or compulsion
<q> trance and hypnosis releases adrenaline and dopamine
<q> so it can become addictive
<q> or a compulsion if you want to consider it a behavior
<subm^> People addicted to gasoline, tolene, rubbing alcohol...   for the thrill? danger?death wish q?
<spiral_gazer> for getting high when you sniff it
<q> subm^, getting high
<onix> Is it easier to handle than more physical addictions like alcohol and cigarettes or worse?
<q> the solvents interrupt brain function and produce a high
<q> it can become an addiction onix
<q> of course it also causes brain damage
<spiral_gazer> I don't know if they more or less addictive, but solvents are incredibly lethal
<q> heroin and cocaine might actually be safer
<q> than huffing
<q> I have not seen a ton of studies on it...... but my gut says the cocaine addictions are safer than huffing solvents
<onix> I meant in the sense of hypnotic addictions
<subm^> Do they not consider the health  issues and the imminent safety dangers, q?
<spiral_gazer> The addict considers them insufficient to not use
<q> subm^, people tend to rationalize their addictions, and dont think in long term
<subm^> Excellent point, spiral_gazer
<q> its a bit why anchors and behavioral psych uses punishment right after the behavior
<spiral_gazer> like herion addicts don't share dirty needles beecause they don't know it's bad
<subm^> That is for sure, q....another excelent point
<spiral_gazer> they might not know _how_ bad
<q> no one thinking long term injects random crap in their bodies and huffs solvent thinking its good over the long term
<spiral_gazer> but they're chasing a high not being healthy
<q> ^
<q> the tolene and gasoline example I gave also was an alcoholic
<q> and had been huffing gasoline and toline for several decades
<onix> There is the "It hasn't killed me yet so it can't be too bad mentality"
<spiral_gazer> Oh question, is there such a thing as an "addictive personality" where someone is more prone to addiction than others? What might cause that?
<q> well onix tbh after decades of huffing, there really isn't much left to damage
<q> most the easily damaged parts of the brain are probably already destroyed
<subm^> Great question, spiral_gazer
<q> hmmmm
<q> I would say spiral_gazer there are personalities and situations that make people more likely to escape into addiction
<q> people who are safety conscious and content are less likely to go full tilt
<q> into addiction
<q> people with trauma and a bad environment are more likely to escape into an addiction and chase a high
<q> people that don't really care about health and or safety
<subm^> Before I forget, q- would you please make a pastebin copy of the log of the duscussion
<subm^> ?
<q> probably are more likely to get addicted faster
<q> sure subm^
<subm^> Thank you, q
<q> yw :)
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<spiral_gazer> OK, so you think it's because of the desire for escapism that makes exposure more likely, rather than some trait that would make the same use level makje one person more addicted than another (outside of expcted variance)
<ctrl-alt-me> gotta get ready to go to dinner, but thank you for a nice discussion q :)
<onix> I'm glad i was able to catch some of the discussion. :)
* ctrl-alt-me is now known as ctrl-alt-me|away
<subm^> :-)
<subm^> Any more questions/comments?
<subm^> I will give one- Thank  you q, foremost  Superior presentation.
<q> you are very welcome :)