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  1. (09/28 16:02:59) Chat.log started...
  2. (09/28 16:03:00)  rarified: could be tapped to help in various stages of work from
  3. (09/28 16:03:22)  rarified: contributors through testing to MOULa.
  4. (09/28 16:03:45)  rarified: I wanted to open things up with more of a "what skills do we have here"
  5. (09/28 16:03:53)  Adam {Hoikas}: looks like the same group from 8 years ago to me...
  6. (09/28 16:04:03)  Adam {Hoikas}: with some amount of atrophy
  7. (09/28 16:04:14)  rarified: discussion, rather than digging into the controversies around existing
  8. (09/28 16:04:17)  rarified: process.
  9. (09/28 16:04:42)  Adam {Hoikas}: I am confused
  10. (09/28 16:04:46)  rarified: But it looks like the group here is mostly the old guard who have helped in the past,
  11. (09/28 16:04:57)  rarified: as well as still are active.
  12. (09/28 16:05:07)  rarified: What is confusing, Adam?
  13. (09/28 16:05:47)  Adam {Hoikas}: if we can't talk about the sticking points in the process, I am confused about what we 're doing today :/
  14. (09/28 16:06:30)  rarified: I wanted to canvas people who can offer some time.
  15. (09/28 16:06:33)  Christian Walther: Then again, if there are no relevant skills on offer, any talk about process is moot.
  16. (09/28 16:06:55)  rarified: Then, with those people at least showing interest, we can discuss
  17. (09/28 16:06:56)  Adam {Hoikas}: I disagree, CW
  18. (09/28 16:07:08)  rarified: where things are, and where to head.
  19. (09/28 16:07:21)  Adam {Hoikas}: if the skill is not there for that process, then we should ask ourselves,  "is that process appropriate " :)
  20. (09/28 16:07:38)  JWPlatt: To which parts of the process would you like to add your skills?
  21. (09/28 16:07:44)  Christian Walther: Okay, yeah, different processes may change the offer. Point taken.
  22. (09/28 16:07:49)  Adam {Hoikas}: :)
  23. (09/28 16:08:15)  Emor D'ni Lap: a couple new faces, but not everyone in-cavern reads the forums or attends AGMs
  24. (09/28 16:08:21)  rarified: Part of the issue is context.  There are some positions I believe are
  25. (09/28 16:08:26)  Adam {Hoikas}: I'd like to hear what all we need -- I don't want to hijack the discussion too much :)
  26. (09/28 16:08:54)  rarified: still pretty fundamental to the path of getting things into MOULa.
  27. (09/28 16:09:06)  Emor D'ni Lap: A couple new faces in the group here, but not everyone in-cavern reads the forums or attends AGMs
  28. (09/28 16:09:18)  rarified: Some of them probably are assumptions, some of them I would have a hard time
  29. (09/28 16:09:18)   [ Auto Shout Enabled ]
  30. (09/28 16:09:30)  rarified: believing are in error.
  31. (09/28 16:09:50)  Emor D'ni Lap: h
  32. (09/28 16:09:54)  Mirphak: Good evening everyone
  33. (09/28 16:10:01)  rarified: Shorah Mirphak.
  34. (09/28 16:10:05)  Christian Walther: Shorah Mirphak
  35. (09/28 16:10:07)  Tai'lahr: Shorah, Mirphak.
  36. (09/28 16:10:09)  Acorn2019: Hi
  37. (09/28 16:10:11)  PodHopper: shorah mir :)
  38. (09/28 16:10:13)  rarified: Thanks for coming.
  39. (09/28 16:10:28)  Emor D'ni Lap: I am not seeing my own posts here, are others seeing this?
  40. (09/28 16:10:34)  Adam {Hoikas}: I see you Emor
  41. (09/28 16:10:36)  Christian Walther: Got it Emor
  42. (09/28 16:10:39)  Acorn2019: Yes
  43. (09/28 16:10:41)  Tai'lahr: Yes.
  44. (09/28 16:10:43)  Emor D'ni Lap: ah, it's not autoscrolling
  45. (09/28 16:10:59)  Emor D'ni Lap: now it is for some reason
  46. (09/28 16:10:59)  PodHopper: use the arrow down
  47. (09/28 16:11:17)  rarified: Anyway, we can head into the discussion about what can be fixed in process,
  48. (09/28 16:11:17)  Emor D'ni Lap: yes, have done that thanks
  49. (09/28 16:11:37)  Adam {Hoikas}: btw rarified, thank you for choosing the day that the Bulldogs are not playing. It would be hard to talk about this and watch football at the same time
  50. (09/28 16:11:42)  rarified: but to do that I would like to put forward those assumptions.
  51. (09/28 16:12:15)  Adam {Hoikas}: sounds like a good starting point
  52. (09/28 16:13:09)  rarified: Ok, I drew up a list a while ago for a post that I never made.
  53. (09/28 16:14:07)  rarified: 1)  MOUL, as well as the game ownership still resides with Cyan.  They have made it available under GPL, but with reservations.
  54. (09/28 16:14:16)  rarified: As part of the pipeline to Cyan, their desires and needs come first.
  55. (09/28 16:14:49)  rarified: 2) We maintain attempting to emulate the MOULa environment as closely as we can.  That means running MOSS, not making substantial changes in how MOSS behaves with regards to the client.
  56. (09/28 16:15:32)  rarified: 3) There is a task list that involves contributors being required to learn new technology.  Jenkins Pipelines.  Groovy scripting (for Jenkins).  VS2003.net.  To some degree, the difference between Linux and Solaris.
  57. (09/28 16:16:43)  rarified: 4) I would like to maintain for the moment the prioritization of tasks that need doing.  That doesn't mean pushing a favorite feature from H'uru and requiring more turns of the build crank by hand.  Unless the contributor also wants to learn all the idiosyncrasies of hand walking a release through Minkata.
  58. (09/28 16:17:20)  rarified: 5) I want to keep on the trajectory for the workflow I've been trying to realize.
  59. (09/28 16:17:34)  rarified: Ok, that seems like a starting point.
  60. (09/28 16:17:53)  rarified: Do you want to go into what I feel the bottlenecks are?
  61. (09/28 16:18:02)  Adam {Hoikas}: that's quite a bit, and maybe we want to clairfy what you mean by 5 at some point, but not right this second
  62. (09/28 16:18:04) CaptainQuery nods his head
  63. (09/28 16:18:07)  Emor D'ni Lap: yes please
  64. (09/28 16:18:09)  Adam {Hoikas}: sounds good, rarified
  65. (09/28 16:18:22)  Christian Walther: We can see how far we get under those assumptions, but if it turns out to be not far enough, we should be prepared to challenge them.
  66. (09/28 16:18:37)  rarified: That's part of the process, Christian
  67. (09/28 16:18:38)  Acorn2019: Before we start, Do we have recent intel to confirm that Cyan's objectives are still what they were?
  68. (09/28 16:18:47)  Adam {Hoikas}: I would like to comment on all of them, but I'll hold on to that :)
  69. (09/28 16:19:03)  Emor D'ni Lap: take notes, Hoikas :)
  70. (09/28 16:19:15)  Adam {Hoikas}: got the lawg running ;)
  71. (09/28 16:19:18)  rarified: No, Acorn.  Chogon is busy on other things and only engages when I have a question.
  72. (09/28 16:19:29)  rarified: (I'm keeping a chat log I can post)
  73. (09/28 16:19:47)  Tai'lahr: I'm sure it wouldn't be that hard to confirm, but also think it's safe to assume for now that they haven't changed.
  74. (09/28 16:19:55)  Adam {Hoikas}: It seemed to me the last time I was plugged in that Chogon had a good system ready to take whatever contributions we come up with
  75.  
  76. [.. Net6 ..]
  77.  
  78. (09/28 16:26:12) Chat.log started...
  79. (09/28 16:26:30)  JWPlatt: I have a short list of what I see as impossible time syncs for raried, if I may.
  80. (09/28 16:26:43)  rarified: "Much of my MOULa time is context switching between working  on automation,"
  81. (09/28 16:27:00)  rarified: "working on a content testing environment, and"
  82. (09/28 16:27:17)  rarified: "first summarizing what already is on Minkata for delivery, and looking at H'uru"
  83. (09/28 16:27:30)  rarified: "for things to next incorporate.  Christian was invaluable in the latter"
  84. (09/28 16:27:44)  Adam {Hoikas}: ty
  85. (09/28 16:27:46)  Christian Walther: Which of these four are the three?
  86. (09/28 16:27:50)  rarified: "role until he was no longer able to offer the time to do it."
  87. (09/28 16:28:07)  rarified: The latter two I lump into one for now.
  88. (09/28 16:28:28)  rarified: JW, please.  Your list.
  89. (09/28 16:29:01)  JWPlatt: In uncertain order:
  90. (09/28 16:29:17)  JWPlatt: Mercurial conversion to Git without loss - JIRA, Fisheye, etc.?
  91. (09/28 16:29:27)  JWPlatt: Port Huru commits to CWE ASAP
  92. (09/28 16:29:38)  JWPlatt: Foundry tools management; e.g. develop automation, etc., guided by rarified
  93. (09/28 16:29:41)  Christian Walther: Shorah Doobes
  94. (09/28 16:29:43)  Adam {Hoikas}: question
  95. (09/28 16:29:48)  rarified: Shorah Doobes!
  96. (09/28 16:29:52) Doobes nods to CW
  97. (09/28 16:29:53)  Mirphak: Hi doobes
  98. (09/28 16:29:57) Doobes waves hello
  99. (09/28 16:29:59)  Acorn2019: hi
  100. (09/28 16:30:02)  JWPlatt: That's it - three points at the moment.
  101. (09/28 16:30:09)  rarified: Adam?
  102. (09/28 16:30:39)  Adam {Hoikas}: I don't mean to keep beating the dead horse, but it seems like a lot of the pain could be solved by adopting a slower rolling branch of H-uru as cwe-ou
  103. (09/28 16:31:15)  Adam {Hoikas}: Is there anything that is preventing this from being a viable option?
  104. (09/28 16:31:15)  Christian Walther: Agreed. "Port Huru commits to CWE" seems a dead end to me.
  105. (09/28 16:31:30)  Adam {Hoikas}: The delta between the two forks is huge at this point
  106. (09/28 16:31:38)  rarified: It might be possible, except that H'uru has significantly changed the build toolchain.
  107. (09/28 16:31:58)  Christian Walther: (if the fact that nobody has done it for years is any indication)
  108. (09/28 16:32:00)  Adam {Hoikas}: the good news on that front is that we have AppVeyor producing client builds for us now
  109. (09/28 16:32:01)  rarified: I'm not advocating staying in 2003, but I would need to  check with Chogon
  110. (09/28 16:32:28)  Adam {Hoikas}: I seem to recall that OU was handing off binaries to Chogon now?
  111. (09/28 16:32:30)  rarified: about how significant a change he/Cyan can accept.
  112. (09/28 16:32:58)  rarified: Yes, OU hands binaries to Cyan.  But as part of a "minimum pain" and "minimum diversion"
  113. (09/28 16:33:05)  Doobes: Until that time, since they're busy with Firmament, could we not just try some things? Any things?
  114. (09/28 16:33:06)  Adam {Hoikas}: definitely
  115. (09/28 16:33:12)  Emor D'ni Lap: seems a worthy question to ask at this point in time
  116. (09/28 16:33:25)  rarified: philosophy from Cyan's existing world, I can't act in isolation.
  117. (09/28 16:33:31)  Adam {Hoikas}: One of the things I did for the H 'uru code was add a system where the dependencies could be updated by the client itself
  118. (09/28 16:33:50)  rarified: Elaborate?
  119. (09/28 16:34:06)  Adam {Hoikas}: plUruLauncher.exe installs updated VC++ runtimes before self-patching
  120. (09/28 16:34:29)  Adam {Hoikas}: so you don't see junk like  "dx_27.dll missing " or whatever junk
  121. (09/28 16:34:56)  rarified: That *was* supposed to be solved with a static link of the launcher,
  122. (09/28 16:35:13)  rarified: and the libraries in the file manifests.  It didn't take, and it wasn't
  123. (09/28 16:35:21)  rarified: the top of my priority list.
  124. (09/28 16:35:24)  Doobes: That would be nice. I spent 15 minutes just to get in here. Anything that'd smooth over the repair process for this thing would be lovely. :)
  125. (09/28 16:35:24)  Adam {Hoikas}: static link with the vcruntime. that's a path to misery and woe
  126. (09/28 16:35:43)  Adam {Hoikas}: even then, you have piles of other dependencies, and many of them prefer dynamic
  127. (09/28 16:35:57)  rarified: So you had to eliminate VC dependencies from the launcher then.
  128. (09/28 16:36:05)  Adam {Hoikas}: no, it still depends on VC
  129. (09/28 16:36:25)  Adam {Hoikas}: the old launcher, however, knows how to install VC for the new launcher and its client :)
  130. (09/28 16:36:41)  rarified: Let's not go down a rathole early on.  You have a technical solution which sounds great to me.
  131. (09/28 16:36:54)  rarified: I  would think it also would be fine for Cyan.
  132. (09/28 16:37:02)  Adam {Hoikas}: what I propose is we build an updated launcher with the old VC++2003 system that can do this for MOULa
  133. (09/28 16:37:05)  rarified: Now, how to get it to MOULa
  134. (09/28 16:37:52)  Adam {Hoikas}: as long as the protocol does not change (should never happen), that launcher could be the launcher forever while the main client tracks the newer code
  135. (09/28 16:37:59)  rarified: So, I'd need a new Launcher base.  If the full H'uru base launcher is still
  136. (09/28 16:38:16)  rarified: compatible with the Cyan framework, we could adopt it pretty much verbatim.
  137. (09/28 16:38:28)  Adam {Hoikas}: I can copy over the H'uru launcher and rip out the H'uru-isms
  138. (09/28 16:38:38)  Adam {Hoikas}: if we don't care about history, anyway
  139. (09/28 16:38:39)  rarified: If it uses different configuration requirements, that's a showstopper.
  140. (09/28 16:39:00)  rarified: What you're offering would be a great start.  
  141. (09/28 16:39:54)  Adam {Hoikas}: it uses a lot of new systems, but only one of them is an absolute requirement, and it's all internal stuff, nothing outward facing
  142. (09/28 16:40:35)  rarified: Expand please new systems.  As long as it doesn't change things like the command line argument handling,
  143. (09/28 16:40:48)  rarified: the magic "event" semaphore, or require a different file layout, it sounds like it would
  144. (09/28 16:40:49)  rarified: drop in.
  145. (09/28 16:40:52)  Adam {Hoikas}: cmd line arguments are unchanged
  146. (09/28 16:41:00)  Adam {Hoikas}: sema is unchanged as well :)
  147. (09/28 16:41:08)  rarified: I can add pretty much any additional toolchain elements needed.
  148. (09/28 16:41:23)  Adam {Hoikas}: the component I mention is called pfPatcher, it's our generic file downloader for the client and patcher
  149. (09/28 16:41:50)  rarified: That reaches out to Cyan's server for non-present files?
  150. (09/28 16:42:05)  Adam {Hoikas}: to whatever server the FileSrv is
  151. (09/28 16:42:14)  Adam {Hoikas}: the protocol remains unchanged
  152. (09/28 16:42:25)  rarified: You allow multiple FileSrv's?
  153. (09/28 16:42:29)  Adam {Hoikas}: not presently
  154. (09/28 16:42:53)  Adam {Hoikas}: that is under consideration though, considering many files have to come from Cyan
  155. (09/28 16:43:05)  rarified: I'd like  to hear more, maybe outside of this discussion.
  156. (09/28 16:43:11)  Adam {Hoikas}: sounds good :)
  157. (09/28 16:43:20)  rarified: But this is the type of coordination that we've been missing.
  158. (09/28 16:44:12)  Doobes: I've found IRC chat to be the best spot .
  159. (09/28 16:44:30)  rarified: On the top of the task list right now, is getting the moldy stuff out of Minkata and to Cyan.
  160. (09/28 16:44:55)  Adam {Hoikas}: what is the present Minkata/MOULa delta?
  161. (09/28 16:44:55)  rarified: I took the stance that I wanted to use that as motivation to finish the automated pipeline
  162. (09/28 16:45:03)  Emor D'ni Lap: Cyan wants moldy stuff? ;)
  163. (09/28 16:45:14)  rarified: to Chogon, but perhaps I should focus on hand-rolling the current batch.
  164. (09/28 16:45:15)  Doobes: Uh, Teledahn 2.0? :P
  165. (09/28 16:45:45)  Tai'lahr: hehe
  166. (09/28 16:45:45)  Doobes: A clean slate for some new work would be a great idea.
  167. (09/28 16:45:50)  Adam {Hoikas}: uh, ok, Fallout 4  "moldy food"
  168. (09/28 16:45:51)  rarified: Again, I'm not sure about the exact delta without disappearing for a little bit.
  169. (09/28 16:46:04)  Adam {Hoikas}: ok, let's not lose sleep over it right now
  170. (09/28 16:46:18)  rarified: It did involve some changes in MOULSCRIPT, which is a first time delivery for us.
  171. (09/28 16:46:40)  rarified: It doesn't appear to be a big deal on the surface, but I had to build a new
  172. (09/28 16:46:48)  Adam {Hoikas}: plPythonPack :)
  173. (09/28 16:46:50)  rarified: automation pipeline to  check the python packing step.
  174. (09/28 16:47:08)  rarified: (which had not been automated before)
  175. (09/28 16:48:03)  rarified: One of the things I was hoping to find volunteers for, was to help with project coordination
  176. (09/28 16:48:20)  rarified: planning on Minkata.  Synchronizing and liason with H'uru.
  177. (09/28 16:48:33)  rarified: Discussing prioritizations.
  178. (09/28 16:49:03)  rarified: I don't think a whole comittee is needed, but someone with their ear to the many voices
  179. (09/28 16:49:07)  rarified: is important.
  180. (09/28 16:49:49)  Adam {Hoikas}: clarification: what is  "project coordination planning on Minkata"
  181. (09/28 16:49:54)  Doobes: Forgive my ignorance, but isn't that where sites like GitHub come in? Someone makes a suggested change, people review on their own time and make a decision on whether to add said change or not?
  182. (09/28 16:50:53)  rarified: Not necessarily, Doobes.  Earlier, I had listed some assumptions I have been working under
  183. (09/28 16:51:06)  rarified: ever since Uru was offered under Open Source.  
  184. (09/28 16:51:24)  rarified: One of those emphasizes that Cyan's needs still are significant.
  185. (09/28 16:51:46)  rarified: A change that someone thinks is simple might look so in isolation, but
  186. (09/28 16:51:52)  rarified: not in a bigger context.
  187. (09/28 16:52:10)  Doobes: Yes, but Cyan can view it too. As can anyone who wants. That's the point.
  188. (09/28 16:52:16)  Emor D'ni Lap: Indeed; that's why any changes  - even via GitHub - would still have to be reviewed by Chogon, no?
  189. (09/28 16:52:35)  rarified: I've been caught between two forces.  Trying to interpret what Cyan might "want/need"
  190. (09/28 16:52:36)  Doobes: I doubt anything would make it onto MOULa without everyone having a look...including them, right?
  191. (09/28 16:52:58)  rarified: and what the enthusiastic developer community has ready to add.
  192. (09/28 16:53:26)  Doobes: rarified, I think they've mostly moved on. It's time to push the envelope a bit, IMHO. I think we have enough smart people here to determine what will and won't break URU.
  193. (09/28 16:53:28)  rarified: Part of the "Cyan" equation is limiting -- severely -- the demands on their time and resources.
  194. (09/28 16:53:55)  Acorn2019: And again, is that still true?
  195. (09/28 16:54:15)  Adam {Hoikas}: I think if we produce game clients that we can test among users  "with a minimum of fuss" we 'll be holding up our end of that bargain
  196. (09/28 16:54:18)  rarified: Uru is still a client-server system.  What is sent to Cyan *has* to work in their server environment.
  197. (09/28 16:54:31)  Doobes: Worrying too much about what Cyan *might* not like is tying people hands. If something breaks in Minkata, which is the closest to MOULa, then we can figure out what went wrong before it goes live on MOULa. We can learn more.
  198. (09/28 16:54:48)  Emor D'ni Lap: Is there anyone *at* Cyan who understands URU code and tech anymore (Chogon is freelance)???
  199. (09/28 16:55:02)  rarified: And that IS the whole point of Minkata.  Holding as closely to MOULa for people to try their
  200. (09/28 16:55:09)  rarified: ideas as possible.
  201. (09/28 16:55:10)  Adam {Hoikas}: do realize that Uru servers are pretty dumb, rarified. This game was originally conceived as a peer 2 peer experience and the architecture still in many ways holds true to that
  202. (09/28 16:55:23)  Doobes: I would honestly think their only directive at this point is "don't kill or overhack the game". ;)
  203. (09/28 16:55:43)  rarified: I never expected what came from H'uru to be always problem free.
  204. (09/28 16:55:43)  Doobes: Plus some content control, but that's another matter.
  205. (09/28 16:55:47)  Adam {Hoikas}: I do think that testing against something as close as possible to MOULa is a good idea though
  206. (09/28 16:56:05)  Adam {Hoikas}: no contribution is problem free, ever ;)
  207. (09/28 16:56:15)  Doobes: We can't be afraid to break or push things with Minkata, rarified. It's the only way we'll iron out the kinks.
  208. (09/28 16:56:45)  rarified: Doobes, you hold a special place in my heart as a "first content contributor".  I know I have let you down
  209. (09/28 16:57:05)  rarified: with the lack of speed to get something ready on Minkata for trying content.
  210. (09/28 16:57:12)  Doobes: Not at all. I know it's not as easy as jamming an Age into the server and hoping for the best. ;)
  211. (09/28 16:57:28)  rarified: I do, however, have a plan that I think is the correct path to take.
  212. (09/28 16:57:28)  Christian Walther: Don't feel like that. We're all volunteers.
  213. (09/28 16:57:44)  Adam {Hoikas}: I still promise that I'm working on that system for spinning up an on-demand test shard :)
  214. (09/28 16:57:53)  rarified: I've tried to reveal what I can without glazing people's eyes over the details.
  215. (09/28 16:58:10)  Doobes: Well, you've got the right crowd for it now. We're not at the AGM. :P
  216. (09/28 16:58:20)  Doobes: Otherwise, the GoW IRC is always open.
  217. (09/28 16:58:46)  Doobes: I've found that to be the best place to chat with most in the crowd here. The admins of both Gehn shard and TOC are there to consult.
  218. (09/28 16:59:12)  rarified: I still am looking for a DB expert for help on the alpha Minkata.
  219. (09/28 16:59:19)  Adam {Hoikas}: Been having barrels of fun with the guys working on something in 3ds Max the last few weeks XD
  220. (09/28 16:59:28)  rarified: Adam and I can disagree on why the two need to be coupled,
  221. (09/28 16:59:43)  rarified: and this is where some philosophy differences come in.
  222. (09/28 16:59:51)  Doobes: And that's kind of where you lose me, rarified. Isn't Minkata itself a test shard? Why not use what you've already got set up?
  223. (09/28 17:00:04)  Adam {Hoikas}: What pilosophy? Why can't we break the testing shard?
  224. (09/28 17:00:43)  Doobes: Error logs. Sweet, sweet error logs. :D
  225. (09/28 17:00:43)  rarified: Yes it is.  But I try to empathize with the people we've had testing on the shard in the past.
  226. (09/28 17:00:50)  Emor D'ni Lap: rarified, p[roblem is you're going to have difficulty finding experts in Solaris and PostgreSQL in this tiny community
  227. (09/28 17:00:59)  rarified: I know for a fact we lost some volunteers testing when something that destroyed their prior
  228. (09/28 17:01:03)  rarified: context was lost.
  229. (09/28 17:01:16)  Doobes: Then they need to be made aware that that's a risk.
  230. (09/28 17:01:23)  rarified: So I am very sensitive to having the mainline test shard be
  231. (09/28 17:01:49)  rarified: vulnerable to the higher likelihood that new ages will leave
  232. (09/28 17:01:59)  rarified: detrius or even damage the vault.
  233. (09/28 17:02:16)  Doobes: Then wipe the vault. Better it be Minkata than MOULa.
  234. (09/28 17:02:20)  PodHopper: i can live with loosing my progress if it crashes..
  235. (09/28 17:02:22)  rarified: That is the entire reason for the Alpha shard.  That testers don't lose context (i.e. their past time)
  236. (09/28 17:02:29)  Doobes: It just needs to be made crystal clear that that's a possibility.
  237. (09/28 17:02:49)  Adam {Hoikas}: again, vault damage is highly remote. The only time I've seen vault damage in the MOUL era has been because of a bug in the server itself
  238. (09/28 17:02:59)  Acorn2019: If the upside is a new age to test, it's s good offer to testers even with the risk
  239. (09/28 17:03:04)  Emor D'ni Lap: A testing shard has to be considered as just that, and *not* a static play shard to build upon
  240. (09/28 17:03:08)  rarified: Any position is possible.  Can we retain "good" testers with those expectations.
  241. (09/28 17:03:29)  Doobes: Just tell them to have fun trying to break things. If they DO break, we learn something. ;)
  242. (09/28 17:03:32)  Adam {Hoikas}: if a tester quits because of a problem, then they are by definition not  "good"
  243. (09/28 17:03:40)  Doobes: Think of the stress tests done on other shards. Those were fun.
  244. (09/28 17:03:43)  Adam {Hoikas}: a tester actively seeks breakage
  245. (09/28 17:03:48)  rarified: Not just vault damage Adam, but additional detrius.  If an age initially makes nodes that are later
  246. (09/28 17:03:59)  rarified: not used but still linked to, we have junk.
  247. (09/28 17:04:06)  Christian Walther: The other question is, can we retain any testers if there's never anything to test because you're perpetually busy building an alpha shard?
  248. (09/28 17:04:11)  Adam {Hoikas}: that's the way online games work, rarified
  249. (09/28 17:04:16)  Adam {Hoikas}: they build up cruft
  250. (09/28 17:04:27)  Emor D'ni Lap: good point CW
  251. (09/28 17:04:37)  rarified: I hear the "vault-fsck" project ringinging in my ears.
  252. (09/28 17:04:44)  Doobes: That's another thing too. They need something to capture interest. Even if it's ugly as sin and dirty code, testing a new Age would draw a big crowd.
  253. (09/28 17:05:04)  rarified: And yes, we've lost testers too because of inaction.  Easy to see in hindsite,
  254. (09/28 17:05:18)  Adam {Hoikas}: I like to think the stuff we have ready to go is not "ugly as sin" Doobes =P
  255. (09/28 17:05:19)  rarified: harder to belive it would happen with "all good plans..."
  256. (09/28 17:05:33)  Doobes: Again, Minkata is a testing shard. If junk accumulates, then perhaps you can find where and why and eliminate the problems.
  257. (09/28 17:05:42)  Doobes: Well, my stuff is. :P
  258. (09/28 17:05:44)  Tai'lahr: You're more likely to lose testers due to lack of something to do than if they lose their accomplishments.
  259. (09/28 17:05:48) Doobes smirks
  260. (09/28 17:05:59)  rarified: It *might* be, if Minkata can regain a reputation as a "first stop" to expose ages to the public.
  261. (09/28 17:06:13)  Doobes: Again, it must be made crystal clear that losing progress is a possibility, but it'll make a better final product for MOULa.
  262. (09/28 17:06:27)  Doobes: So that it doesn't happen *there*...again. :P
  263. (09/28 17:06:38)  Emor D'ni Lap: well, that would again imply that Minkata could become a "play" shard, which people must be clear it is not
  264. (09/28 17:06:41)  Adam {Hoikas}: pretty sure that was a server bug too ;)
  265. (09/28 17:06:56)  rarified: So, we do have to make some adjustments.  For initial testing of ages (right now), Minkata would have
  266. (09/28 17:06:59)  Doobes: Heh, well I don't pretend to understand what happened. I just work here.
  267. (09/28 17:07:12)  rarified: to offer the "Internal" client to load the ages.  But to accurately test delivery to
  268. (09/28 17:07:18)  Korov'ev: You lost people who didn't even understand what a testing shard is. That's good for the actual scope of the shard.
  269. (09/28 17:07:27)  rarified: Cyan, we'd have to switch to a "External" context for a period of time.
  270. (09/28 17:07:38)  Tai'lahr: Good point, Korov'ev.
  271. (09/28 17:07:41)  Doobes: Then let's do that.
  272. (09/28 17:07:52)  rarified: Do you think that would prove unpleasent.  Alpha was  always going to be running
  273. (09/28 17:08:11)  rarified: Internal, and when vault wipes happened there (copying state from Minkata prime)
  274. (09/28 17:08:23)  rarified: It would stay Internal, and prime  External.
  275. (09/28 17:08:33)  Doobes: It just seems like another layer that we really don't need, rarified. Plus, you're having trouble even getting it off the ground.
  276. (09/28 17:08:41)  Adam {Hoikas}: rarified, what if we enabled the console on Minkata prime?
  277. (09/28 17:08:44)  Doobes: Plus, can't we do both on regular Minkata? Internal and external?
  278. (09/28 17:09:22)  rarified: We still would have to switch to real "External" before handoff to Cyan.
  279. (09/28 17:09:23)  Adam {Hoikas}: #undef LIMIT_CONSOLE_COMMANDS
  280. (09/28 17:09:47)  rarified: I'm pretty sure they won't accept a client  for the general public on MOULa with console enabled.
  281. (09/28 17:10:00)  Adam {Hoikas}: on Minkata, not MOULa ;)
  282. (09/28 17:10:13)  Doobes: Yeah.
  283. (09/28 17:10:31)  Doobes: Again, we keep all the crazy on Minkata, the test shard, so we can have sanity on MOULa. :)
  284. (09/28 17:10:40)  rarified: Yes, but ... what gets marked as accepted from testing on Minkata is exactly what I deliver to Cyan.
  285. (09/28 17:10:49)  Adam {Hoikas}: alternatively, we could have a minkata only KI command for linking to fan ages. That should be small and self-contained enough that patching it only on Minkata will be fine
  286. (09/28 17:11:14)  Doobes: Well, when we have a nearly ready external client, everyone can use that and test the heck out of it.
  287. (09/28 17:11:20)  Doobes: (on Minkata)
  288. (09/28 17:11:25)  rarified: Could you write a description that I could point Chogon at?
  289. (09/28 17:11:51)  Adam {Hoikas}: in reference to?
  290. (09/28 17:11:59)  rarified: Yes Doobes, but we need to cycle the "context" of Minkata at times, which might be unexpected.
  291. (09/28 17:12:17)  rarified: (I know, a lot of mights and maybes.  I did a lot of software test design)
  292. (09/28 17:12:28)  Emor D'ni Lap: but what gets delivered to Cyan STILL goes on their 'staging server', which Chogon is okay with having some issues - that's what it's there for, as well
  293. (09/28 17:12:48)  Adam {Hoikas}: I do appreciate that we need to test the external client. We had a not-funny Gehn bug that only affected external clients... several times...
  294. (09/28 17:13:02)  rarified: Only for a quick sanity check from the way the last few deliveries go.  They get the package,
  295. (09/28 17:13:23)  rarified: Vicki and Chogon put it on the staging server, and an hour later they have a go-nogo decision.
  296. (09/28 17:13:45)  Adam {Hoikas}: sounds about right
  297. (09/28 17:14:11)  Tai'lahr: Which means they're only looking at the one thing and wouldn't catch anything else that might be wrong.
  298. (09/28 17:14:13)  Doobes: That's fine. If we send them something that's been tested, retested, broken, fixed, refixed, etc...then that's all they'll need to do.
  299. (09/28 17:14:58)  Doobes: But we can't be afraid to break things. It's the only way to fix 'em.
  300. (09/28 17:15:06)  Doobes: Here on Minkata, that is.
  301. (09/28 17:15:16)  rarified: Well, there are a couple of things on the table so far.  
  302. (09/28 17:15:19)  Adam {Hoikas}: Just so I'm clear on what we're saying: the external client needs to be tested thoroughly. as unmodified as possible. So, even enabling the console on an external build is a bad idea
  303. (09/28 17:15:56)  Doobes: Really, we'd only need a few people who know what they're doing with an internal client. The rest can test out any external client.
  304. (09/28 17:15:58)  rarified: Adam has an upgraded launcher that it sounds like he's willing to screen H'uru-isms from and hand off.
  305. (09/28 17:16:14)  Adam {Hoikas}: right, rarified
  306. (09/28 17:16:16)  rarified: I can put aside the automation implementation and clear out Minkata.
  307. (09/28 17:16:44)  rarified: I can try to come up with a clearer description of how we can use Minkata more effectively,
  308. (09/28 17:17:01)  rarified: noting that it may be more volatile than it has been in the past.
  309. (09/28 17:17:13)  rarified: That way, once we get the launcher through the pipeline,
  310. (09/28 17:17:34)  Doobes: Again, reiterate that it's a TEST shard and things may get weird or broken...but it's part of the process. ;)
  311. (09/28 17:17:35)  rarified: I can switch to internal mode, so Adam can help debug loading ages. Which IIRC he tried
  312. (09/28 17:17:46)  rarified: to do during the brief view of Alpah.
  313. (09/28 17:18:17)  rarified: Without knowing the internal commands are there, other testers shouldn't be impacted.
  314. (09/28 17:18:34)  Adam {Hoikas}: (with the exception of the L key lol)
  315. (09/28 17:18:39)  Doobes: As far as Ages to test, I have quite a few in various stages that aren't ready for prime-time (ie release), but you can poke holes in them to see what's working and what isn't.
  316. (09/28 17:19:12)  rarified: Some of you have already offered minimalistic ages to try first, just to get to where the
  317. (09/28 17:19:34)  rarified: (an) age from either 3ds or  Korman will load, and not trash the place.
  318. (09/28 17:19:44)  rarified: I'd like to start with those.
  319. (09/28 17:19:57) Doobes has plenty from Korman upon request
  320. (09/28 17:20:13)  Emor D'ni Lap: will have a simple Max/Plasma to you within a few days, rarified
  321. (09/28 17:20:35)  rarified: I have had offers of existing 3ds ages as well, and that might even be the first step.
  322. (09/28 17:20:44)  rarified: See that the current client can still cope with a "new" (non-moldy) age.
  323. (09/28 17:20:52)  rarified: Built with the original tools.
  324. (09/28 17:20:54)  Doobes: As for a simple Korman Age, just tell me exactly what you'd like to include for testing and I can put something together if I don't have it already.
  325. (09/28 17:20:56)  Adam {Hoikas}: the 3ds max ages should be the simplest to integrate
  326. (09/28 17:21:51)  rarified: I *may* also have a way to cook 3ds ages in batch and automated mode as well.
  327. (09/28 17:22:02)  rarified: I have not tried it yet, though.
  328. (09/28 17:22:14)  Adam {Hoikas}: the only sticking point with the Korman ages ***should*** be with regards to how the physics data is exported. It had to change to not be reliant on a 32-bit process on windows
  329. (09/28 17:22:44)  rarified: Too large a dataset?
  330. (09/28 17:22:48)  Doobes: Would there be away around that for now to see if we can at least link in?
  331. (09/28 17:22:57)  Adam {Hoikas}: PhysX 2.6 only works on windows 32-bit
  332. (09/28 17:23:00)  Doobes: Again...basic Age and whatnot. :D
  333. (09/28 17:23:07)  Emor D'ni Lap: and fall through the floor? ;)
  334. (09/28 17:23:18)  rarified: Or that could be an age feature :P
  335. (09/28 17:23:22)  Adam {Hoikas}: MOUL stores cooked PhysX data, which changes regularly, sadly
  336. (09/28 17:23:25)  Doobes: Hey, as long as we can link in, I can put in a pretty skydome for the fall. Hehehe.
  337. (09/28 17:23:45)  Adam {Hoikas}: I 'm good at modelling cubes and planes, so I get all the floors!
  338. (09/28 17:23:50)  Emor D'ni Lap: and a nice screaming sound with Doppler
  339. (09/28 17:24:04)  Tai'lahr: heh
  340. (09/28 17:24:13)  Doobes: Indeed. But seriously, gotta start somewhere, and if that's what it takes...
  341. (09/28 17:24:18) Doobes shrugs
  342. (09/28 17:24:26)  Doobes: I'm willing to fiddle in Blender for it. ;)
  343. (09/28 17:24:40)  rarified: While this meeting morphed, it has gone in a direction we needed.
  344. (09/28 17:24:57)  PodHopper: it sure is
  345. (09/28 17:25:05)  rarified: I'm glad we could have this chat, and would love to keep things going.
  346. (09/28 17:25:10)  Doobes: One thing you need to remember about most of us is we kinda work in stream of consciousness sometimes...but we come together when needed.
  347. (09/28 17:25:16)  Adam {Hoikas}: we practiced what's called "the educational F-word" ;)
  348. (09/28 17:25:26)  Adam {Hoikas}: (flexibility)
  349. (09/28 17:25:38)  rarified: I willl work on the two items I mentioned as first priority for now,
  350. (09/28 17:25:49)  Emor D'ni Lap: I do need to leave soon; should one of us forward a chatlog of this (very productive) session to MarkDF and Vicki?
  351. (09/28 17:26:00)  Doobes: Couldn't hurt.
  352. (09/28 17:26:12)  rarified: and will look to Adam for help on the next elements.
  353. (09/28 17:26:21)  Doobes: Give them a heads up that things may be flying their way....hopefully soon. :)
  354. (09/28 17:26:22)  rarified: Please don't make me drink from a firehose.
  355. (09/28 17:26:27)  Adam {Hoikas}: lol
  356. (09/28 17:26:30)  Tai'lahr: And you'll join the GoW IIRC?
  357. (09/28 17:26:31)  rarified: (I have a sinus problem)(
  358. (09/28 17:26:33)  JWPlatt: We need to make sure contributions make less demands on your time.   i.e., "What can you do for Minkata?" Are demands increased or decreased?
  359. (09/28 17:26:49)  Emor D'ni Lap: thank you rarified and all
  360. (09/28 17:26:55) Acorn2019 claps her hands
  361. (09/28 17:27:02)  rarified: Thanks for you input Emor, see you later!
  362. (09/28 17:27:08)  Adam {Hoikas}: if we're able to start tracking a curated H'uru branch, that should solve the firehose issue.
  363. (09/28 17:27:10)  Korov'ev: bye EDL!
  364. (09/28 17:27:16)  Adam {Hoikas}: cya Emor!
  365. (09/28 17:27:21)  Doobes: Well, this stuff won't be instant, but it'll happen when it happens. We all have RL junk, so we can respect rarified's.
  366. (09/28 17:27:23)  Emor D'ni Lap: again, my interest is in spreading the load so that rarified does not have to shoulder everything here
  367. (09/28 17:27:25)  Tai'lahr: Safe journeys, Emor.
  368. (09/28 17:27:33)  Mirphak: bye emor
  369. (09/28 17:28:04)  Adam {Hoikas}: I will definitely have at least one question for Chogon about MOUL 's file server. I' ll get with you on that rarified
  370. (09/28 17:28:17)  Emor D'ni Lap: not leaving quite yet ;D
  371. (09/28 17:28:24)  Doobes: :D
  372. (09/28 17:28:26)  rarified: Appreciate your outlook Doobes, and that you've stuck with me so long.
  373. (09/28 17:28:44)  Adam {Hoikas}: (Emor must not notice the cane approaching him from stage right)
  374. (09/28 17:28:45)  rarified: I *do* have good intentions, you know. ;)
  375. (09/28 17:28:49)  Doobes: It's a community for a reason. Just let me know what you need on the Korman end of things and I can supply it.
  376. (09/28 17:28:59)  Doobes: Er, content-wise that is. :P
  377. (09/28 17:29:45)  rarified: With Adam helping work out a better bridge to the Minkata/Foundry environment,
  378. (09/28 17:30:03)  rarified: that's quite a load off of my "how in  the world am I going to get that done" plate.
  379. (09/28 17:30:21)  Doobes: Hehehe. He does good work, our Tsar. :D
  380. (09/28 17:30:26)  Adam {Hoikas}: yeah, picking over individual features would be a nightmare
  381. (09/28 17:31:00)  rarified: It certainly is YATS.  (Yet another time sink)
  382. (09/28 17:31:16)  Emor D'ni Lap: sorry Deledrius cannot be here as I'm sure he'll have some input later on
  383. (09/28 17:31:16)  rarified: (I come from a classical Unix education)
  384. (09/28 17:31:24)  Adam {Hoikas}: lol
  385. (09/28 17:31:35)  Doobes: I imagine he will, Emor. Shame he couldn't make it.
  386. (09/28 17:31:53)  rarified: Was there a better way to get the word out about needing help?
  387. (09/28 17:32:04)  rarified: Or has our community dwindled that much?
  388. (09/28 17:32:14)  Adam {Hoikas}: this seems a large crowd to me
  389. (09/28 17:32:17)  Doobes: I imagine the usual social media. FB still gets a lot of bites on URU/Myst pages.
  390. (09/28 17:32:29)  Doobes: Forums have kinda died down from what I've seen.
  391. (09/28 17:32:33)  Emor D'ni Lap: The only thing that MIGHT have helped would have been to have this session on the Cyan shard, where folks wouldn't have to register
  392. (09/28 17:32:47)  Acorn2019: yeah, the forums have really dwindled
  393. (09/28 17:32:47)  Adam {Hoikas}: yeah, any time I post new Korman features on the GoW FB it goes nuts, but other than that...
  394. (09/28 17:32:50)  rarified: True, I didn't try FB.  I thought Discord would be "the place" though.
  395. (09/28 17:33:04)  Adam {Hoikas}: dunno, I personally despise discord...
  396. (09/28 17:33:16)  Doobes: Sadly, I rarely use it. Social media, from what I've seen anyway, is your best bet. I'll even promote anything you've got on my page.
  397. (09/28 17:33:27)  Emor D'ni Lap: Discord and the FOrums are for the longtime diehards, often not for 'fresh blood'
  398. (09/28 17:33:39)  JWPlatt: I suspect if asking for a Minkata regisrtration is too much to ask, they won't be reliable help.
  399. (09/28 17:33:49)  Emor D'ni Lap: this is possible JW
  400. (09/28 17:33:51)  Doobes: Yeah, to connect with your average explorer, Facebook seems to be the place.
  401. (09/28 17:34:08)  Adam {Hoikas}: possible, but I wouldn't judge them until there's a hook to come here
  402. (09/28 17:34:18)  rarified: Ok.  Maybe I'll try again, perhaps offering a poll at an AGM.
  403. (09/28 17:34:31)  rarified: (And announce that on one of the FB groups ;) )
  404. (09/28 17:34:34)  Doobes: Yeah. I imagine with some new shiny content staring them down, they'll jump through quite a few hoops. :D
  405. (09/28 17:35:16)  rarified: Well, we *do* need to have people "help".   The need to bring something.
  406. (09/28 17:35:36)  rarified: Pizza.
  407. (09/28 17:35:41)  rarified: Doughnuts are out.  Too many carbs.
  408. (09/28 17:35:48)  rarified: Sadly, pie as well.
  409. (09/28 17:35:51)  Adam {Hoikas}: not Little Caesar's. Please...
  410. (09/28 17:35:55)  Doobes: Eh, just give all that to me. XD
  411. (09/28 17:36:16)  Doobes: I'll share with anyone not afraid of the carbs....after I've hoarded it all and had my fill. Mwahahahahahaaa!
  412. (09/28 17:36:40)  rarified: Ok, let's act on what we've talked about today.  And see about maintaining communication.
  413. (09/28 17:36:59)  rarified: Thanks for coming, thanks for not bludgeoning me to death.
  414. (09/28 17:37:13)  Acorn2019: great work, rarified and eveyone
  415. (09/28 17:37:19)  Korov'ev: testers get a special shirt on Moula
  416. (09/28 17:37:21)  JWPlatt: Good day all.
  417. (09/28 17:37:21)  Tai'lahr: Shorah, Thoe!
  418. (09/28 17:37:28)  rarified: Shorah JQ.
  419. (09/28 17:37:35)  thoekenem: shorah Tai'lahr
  420. (09/28 17:37:35)  rarified: JW.
  421. (09/28 17:37:44)  Tai'lahr: You just missed a very productive meeting.
  422. (09/28 17:37:46)  Adam {Hoikas}: will probably have some questions in discord later, rarified
  423. (09/28 17:37:47)  Mirphak: hi thoe
  424. (09/28 17:37:57)  rarified: Sounds fine, Adam.
  425. (09/28 17:38:00)  thoekenem: hello mirphak
  426. (09/28 17:38:07) Doobes needs to get on some more content to dazzle people and possibly break things...for science!!!!
  427. (09/28 17:38:08)  Tai'lahr: But keep watching the forums; they're going to need testers in the future.
  428. (09/28 17:38:29)  thoekenem: sorry, Fil just finished his live music jam session...
  429. (09/28 17:38:32)  Doobes: Oh yeah, but for now, let's see what we can break...then fix.
  430. (09/28 17:38:34) rarified can tell "Doobes is up to no good"
  431. (09/28 17:38:53)  Acorn2019: I'm good at breaking things lol
  432. (09/28 17:39:05)  rarified: Thank you Acorn!
  433. (09/28 17:39:06)  Doobes: Hey, that Pub worked out some bugs in Gehn...hopefully it'll do the same for Minkata. ;)
  434. (09/28 17:39:16)  Adam {Hoikas}: that doggone pub =P
  435. (09/28 17:39:32)  Doobes: It's a beast, I'll give you that. If a shard can run it, it can run anything. Hehehe.
  436. (09/28 17:39:35)  rarified: Very possibly.  MOSS is NOT perfect.
  437. (09/28 17:39:43)  Adam {Hoikas}: I need to get on Deledrius about those doggone MultiStageBehMods
  438. (09/28 17:40:17)  Adam {Hoikas}: rarified, I promise I'm working on a better server! no promises about when it'll be done though :)
  439. (09/28 17:40:40)  Doobes: SOON (tm).
  440. (09/28 17:40:45)  rarified: Cyan time.
  441. (09/28 17:40:46) Doobes grins
  442. (09/28 17:40:50)  Adam {Hoikas}: Soon? gulp
  443. (09/28 17:41:05) Adam {Hoikas} eyes the long list of todos
  444. (09/28 17:41:15)  Doobes: Well, Hoikas Soon.  Not SOON soon and not Cyan soon. ;)
  445. (09/28 17:41:33)  rarified: Ok.  It's off to yard work for me.  Winter is coming.
  446. (09/28 17:41:35)  Doobes: (ie at your own pace, of course)
  447. (09/28 17:41:54)  Adam {Hoikas}: ugh, no yard work. it's still 100 F here
  448. (09/28 17:42:12)  Doobes: It's lovely, isn't it? XD
  449. (09/28 17:42:13)  rarified: Northern Rocky Mountains -- 24-30 in snow.
  450. (09/28 17:42:17)  Adam {Hoikas}: dang
  451. (09/28 17:42:33)  Adam {Hoikas}: we're so hot and dry the grass won't grow
  452. (09/28 17:42:47)  Adam {Hoikas}: today is my normal grass mowing day, nope...
  453. (09/28 17:43:03)  rarified: BTDT
  454. (09/28 17:43:14)  Doobes: Yikes. Here, the water keeps rising slightly to flood the parking lot...so you can have some if you want. ;)
  455. (09/28 17:43:33)  Adam {Hoikas}: I don't need your salt water. I like having grass =P
  456. (09/28 17:43:43)  Doobes: Oh, good point.
  457. (09/28 17:43:45)  Adam {Hoikas}: I only had to cut down 17 trees to grow it.
  458. (09/28 17:44:23)  PodHopper: making books of your own?
  459. (09/28 17:44:31)  rarified: Well, thanks again folks.  I'll see you, soon (tm).
  460. (09/28 17:44:35)  Tai'lahr: Prairie restoration, huh?
  461. (09/28 17:44:37)  Adam {Hoikas}: cya rarified
  462. (09/28 17:44:39) Doobes salutes
  463. (09/28 17:44:39) rarified waves goodbye
  464. (09/28 17:44:40)  Christian Walther: bye rarified, thank you
  465. (09/28 17:44:46) PodHopper waves hello
  466. (09/28 17:44:46)  PodHopper: bye
  467. (09/28 17:44:47)  Korov'ev: bye rarified
  468. (09/28 17:44:49)  Acorn2019: Thanks again, rarified
  469. (09/28 17:44:51)  Adam {Hoikas}: PodHopper, you know what they say, you 've gotta use a proper Korman.
  470. (09/28 17:44:52)  CaptainQuery: bye
  471. (09/28 17:44:55)  Mirphak: thank you rarified, bye
  472. (09/28 17:44:56)  Mirphak: e
  473. (09/28 17:44:57)  Tai'lahr: Safe journeys, everyone.
  474. (09/28 17:44:59) Tai'lahr salutes
  475. (09/28 17:45:01)  Doobes: Fan Ages by 2020 (hopefully)! :D
  476. (09/28 17:45:11)  Acorn2019: bye, everyone
  477. (09/28 17:45:14) Acorn2019 waves goodbye
  478. (09/28 17:45:18)  PodHopper: who knows doobes..
  479. (09/28 17:45:37)  Mirphak: bye acorn
  480. (09/28 17:45:37)  Christian Walther: Bye Acorn
  481. (09/28 17:45:37)  Doobes: Cautious Optimism. ;)
  482. (09/28 17:45:37) Doobes salutes
  483. (09/28 17:45:48)  CaptainQuery: Shorah all
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