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- (09/28 16:02:59) Chat.log started...
- (09/28 16:03:00) rarified: could be tapped to help in various stages of work from
- (09/28 16:03:22) rarified: contributors through testing to MOULa.
- (09/28 16:03:45) rarified: I wanted to open things up with more of a "what skills do we have here"
- (09/28 16:03:53) Adam {Hoikas}: looks like the same group from 8 years ago to me...
- (09/28 16:04:03) Adam {Hoikas}: with some amount of atrophy
- (09/28 16:04:14) rarified: discussion, rather than digging into the controversies around existing
- (09/28 16:04:17) rarified: process.
- (09/28 16:04:42) Adam {Hoikas}: I am confused
- (09/28 16:04:46) rarified: But it looks like the group here is mostly the old guard who have helped in the past,
- (09/28 16:04:57) rarified: as well as still are active.
- (09/28 16:05:07) rarified: What is confusing, Adam?
- (09/28 16:05:47) Adam {Hoikas}: if we can't talk about the sticking points in the process, I am confused about what we 're doing today :/
- (09/28 16:06:30) rarified: I wanted to canvas people who can offer some time.
- (09/28 16:06:33) Christian Walther: Then again, if there are no relevant skills on offer, any talk about process is moot.
- (09/28 16:06:55) rarified: Then, with those people at least showing interest, we can discuss
- (09/28 16:06:56) Adam {Hoikas}: I disagree, CW
- (09/28 16:07:08) rarified: where things are, and where to head.
- (09/28 16:07:21) Adam {Hoikas}: if the skill is not there for that process, then we should ask ourselves, "is that process appropriate " :)
- (09/28 16:07:38) JWPlatt: To which parts of the process would you like to add your skills?
- (09/28 16:07:44) Christian Walther: Okay, yeah, different processes may change the offer. Point taken.
- (09/28 16:07:49) Adam {Hoikas}: :)
- (09/28 16:08:15) Emor D'ni Lap: a couple new faces, but not everyone in-cavern reads the forums or attends AGMs
- (09/28 16:08:21) rarified: Part of the issue is context. There are some positions I believe are
- (09/28 16:08:26) Adam {Hoikas}: I'd like to hear what all we need -- I don't want to hijack the discussion too much :)
- (09/28 16:08:54) rarified: still pretty fundamental to the path of getting things into MOULa.
- (09/28 16:09:06) Emor D'ni Lap: A couple new faces in the group here, but not everyone in-cavern reads the forums or attends AGMs
- (09/28 16:09:18) rarified: Some of them probably are assumptions, some of them I would have a hard time
- (09/28 16:09:18) [ Auto Shout Enabled ]
- (09/28 16:09:30) rarified: believing are in error.
- (09/28 16:09:50) Emor D'ni Lap: h
- (09/28 16:09:54) Mirphak: Good evening everyone
- (09/28 16:10:01) rarified: Shorah Mirphak.
- (09/28 16:10:05) Christian Walther: Shorah Mirphak
- (09/28 16:10:07) Tai'lahr: Shorah, Mirphak.
- (09/28 16:10:09) Acorn2019: Hi
- (09/28 16:10:11) PodHopper: shorah mir :)
- (09/28 16:10:13) rarified: Thanks for coming.
- (09/28 16:10:28) Emor D'ni Lap: I am not seeing my own posts here, are others seeing this?
- (09/28 16:10:34) Adam {Hoikas}: I see you Emor
- (09/28 16:10:36) Christian Walther: Got it Emor
- (09/28 16:10:39) Acorn2019: Yes
- (09/28 16:10:41) Tai'lahr: Yes.
- (09/28 16:10:43) Emor D'ni Lap: ah, it's not autoscrolling
- (09/28 16:10:59) Emor D'ni Lap: now it is for some reason
- (09/28 16:10:59) PodHopper: use the arrow down
- (09/28 16:11:17) rarified: Anyway, we can head into the discussion about what can be fixed in process,
- (09/28 16:11:17) Emor D'ni Lap: yes, have done that thanks
- (09/28 16:11:37) Adam {Hoikas}: btw rarified, thank you for choosing the day that the Bulldogs are not playing. It would be hard to talk about this and watch football at the same time
- (09/28 16:11:42) rarified: but to do that I would like to put forward those assumptions.
- (09/28 16:12:15) Adam {Hoikas}: sounds like a good starting point
- (09/28 16:13:09) rarified: Ok, I drew up a list a while ago for a post that I never made.
- (09/28 16:14:07) rarified: 1) MOUL, as well as the game ownership still resides with Cyan. They have made it available under GPL, but with reservations.
- (09/28 16:14:16) rarified: As part of the pipeline to Cyan, their desires and needs come first.
- (09/28 16:14:49) rarified: 2) We maintain attempting to emulate the MOULa environment as closely as we can. That means running MOSS, not making substantial changes in how MOSS behaves with regards to the client.
- (09/28 16:15:32) rarified: 3) There is a task list that involves contributors being required to learn new technology. Jenkins Pipelines. Groovy scripting (for Jenkins). VS2003.net. To some degree, the difference between Linux and Solaris.
- (09/28 16:16:43) rarified: 4) I would like to maintain for the moment the prioritization of tasks that need doing. That doesn't mean pushing a favorite feature from H'uru and requiring more turns of the build crank by hand. Unless the contributor also wants to learn all the idiosyncrasies of hand walking a release through Minkata.
- (09/28 16:17:20) rarified: 5) I want to keep on the trajectory for the workflow I've been trying to realize.
- (09/28 16:17:34) rarified: Ok, that seems like a starting point.
- (09/28 16:17:53) rarified: Do you want to go into what I feel the bottlenecks are?
- (09/28 16:18:02) Adam {Hoikas}: that's quite a bit, and maybe we want to clairfy what you mean by 5 at some point, but not right this second
- (09/28 16:18:04) CaptainQuery nods his head
- (09/28 16:18:07) Emor D'ni Lap: yes please
- (09/28 16:18:09) Adam {Hoikas}: sounds good, rarified
- (09/28 16:18:22) Christian Walther: We can see how far we get under those assumptions, but if it turns out to be not far enough, we should be prepared to challenge them.
- (09/28 16:18:37) rarified: That's part of the process, Christian
- (09/28 16:18:38) Acorn2019: Before we start, Do we have recent intel to confirm that Cyan's objectives are still what they were?
- (09/28 16:18:47) Adam {Hoikas}: I would like to comment on all of them, but I'll hold on to that :)
- (09/28 16:19:03) Emor D'ni Lap: take notes, Hoikas :)
- (09/28 16:19:15) Adam {Hoikas}: got the lawg running ;)
- (09/28 16:19:18) rarified: No, Acorn. Chogon is busy on other things and only engages when I have a question.
- (09/28 16:19:29) rarified: (I'm keeping a chat log I can post)
- (09/28 16:19:47) Tai'lahr: I'm sure it wouldn't be that hard to confirm, but also think it's safe to assume for now that they haven't changed.
- (09/28 16:19:55) Adam {Hoikas}: It seemed to me the last time I was plugged in that Chogon had a good system ready to take whatever contributions we come up with
- [.. Net6 ..]
- (09/28 16:26:12) Chat.log started...
- (09/28 16:26:30) JWPlatt: I have a short list of what I see as impossible time syncs for raried, if I may.
- (09/28 16:26:43) rarified: "Much of my MOULa time is context switching between working on automation,"
- (09/28 16:27:00) rarified: "working on a content testing environment, and"
- (09/28 16:27:17) rarified: "first summarizing what already is on Minkata for delivery, and looking at H'uru"
- (09/28 16:27:30) rarified: "for things to next incorporate. Christian was invaluable in the latter"
- (09/28 16:27:44) Adam {Hoikas}: ty
- (09/28 16:27:46) Christian Walther: Which of these four are the three?
- (09/28 16:27:50) rarified: "role until he was no longer able to offer the time to do it."
- (09/28 16:28:07) rarified: The latter two I lump into one for now.
- (09/28 16:28:28) rarified: JW, please. Your list.
- (09/28 16:29:01) JWPlatt: In uncertain order:
- (09/28 16:29:17) JWPlatt: Mercurial conversion to Git without loss - JIRA, Fisheye, etc.?
- (09/28 16:29:27) JWPlatt: Port Huru commits to CWE ASAP
- (09/28 16:29:38) JWPlatt: Foundry tools management; e.g. develop automation, etc., guided by rarified
- (09/28 16:29:41) Christian Walther: Shorah Doobes
- (09/28 16:29:43) Adam {Hoikas}: question
- (09/28 16:29:48) rarified: Shorah Doobes!
- (09/28 16:29:52) Doobes nods to CW
- (09/28 16:29:53) Mirphak: Hi doobes
- (09/28 16:29:57) Doobes waves hello
- (09/28 16:29:59) Acorn2019: hi
- (09/28 16:30:02) JWPlatt: That's it - three points at the moment.
- (09/28 16:30:09) rarified: Adam?
- (09/28 16:30:39) Adam {Hoikas}: I don't mean to keep beating the dead horse, but it seems like a lot of the pain could be solved by adopting a slower rolling branch of H-uru as cwe-ou
- (09/28 16:31:15) Adam {Hoikas}: Is there anything that is preventing this from being a viable option?
- (09/28 16:31:15) Christian Walther: Agreed. "Port Huru commits to CWE" seems a dead end to me.
- (09/28 16:31:30) Adam {Hoikas}: The delta between the two forks is huge at this point
- (09/28 16:31:38) rarified: It might be possible, except that H'uru has significantly changed the build toolchain.
- (09/28 16:31:58) Christian Walther: (if the fact that nobody has done it for years is any indication)
- (09/28 16:32:00) Adam {Hoikas}: the good news on that front is that we have AppVeyor producing client builds for us now
- (09/28 16:32:01) rarified: I'm not advocating staying in 2003, but I would need to check with Chogon
- (09/28 16:32:28) Adam {Hoikas}: I seem to recall that OU was handing off binaries to Chogon now?
- (09/28 16:32:30) rarified: about how significant a change he/Cyan can accept.
- (09/28 16:32:58) rarified: Yes, OU hands binaries to Cyan. But as part of a "minimum pain" and "minimum diversion"
- (09/28 16:33:05) Doobes: Until that time, since they're busy with Firmament, could we not just try some things? Any things?
- (09/28 16:33:06) Adam {Hoikas}: definitely
- (09/28 16:33:12) Emor D'ni Lap: seems a worthy question to ask at this point in time
- (09/28 16:33:25) rarified: philosophy from Cyan's existing world, I can't act in isolation.
- (09/28 16:33:31) Adam {Hoikas}: One of the things I did for the H 'uru code was add a system where the dependencies could be updated by the client itself
- (09/28 16:33:50) rarified: Elaborate?
- (09/28 16:34:06) Adam {Hoikas}: plUruLauncher.exe installs updated VC++ runtimes before self-patching
- (09/28 16:34:29) Adam {Hoikas}: so you don't see junk like "dx_27.dll missing " or whatever junk
- (09/28 16:34:56) rarified: That *was* supposed to be solved with a static link of the launcher,
- (09/28 16:35:13) rarified: and the libraries in the file manifests. It didn't take, and it wasn't
- (09/28 16:35:21) rarified: the top of my priority list.
- (09/28 16:35:24) Doobes: That would be nice. I spent 15 minutes just to get in here. Anything that'd smooth over the repair process for this thing would be lovely. :)
- (09/28 16:35:24) Adam {Hoikas}: static link with the vcruntime. that's a path to misery and woe
- (09/28 16:35:43) Adam {Hoikas}: even then, you have piles of other dependencies, and many of them prefer dynamic
- (09/28 16:35:57) rarified: So you had to eliminate VC dependencies from the launcher then.
- (09/28 16:36:05) Adam {Hoikas}: no, it still depends on VC
- (09/28 16:36:25) Adam {Hoikas}: the old launcher, however, knows how to install VC for the new launcher and its client :)
- (09/28 16:36:41) rarified: Let's not go down a rathole early on. You have a technical solution which sounds great to me.
- (09/28 16:36:54) rarified: I would think it also would be fine for Cyan.
- (09/28 16:37:02) Adam {Hoikas}: what I propose is we build an updated launcher with the old VC++2003 system that can do this for MOULa
- (09/28 16:37:05) rarified: Now, how to get it to MOULa
- (09/28 16:37:52) Adam {Hoikas}: as long as the protocol does not change (should never happen), that launcher could be the launcher forever while the main client tracks the newer code
- (09/28 16:37:59) rarified: So, I'd need a new Launcher base. If the full H'uru base launcher is still
- (09/28 16:38:16) rarified: compatible with the Cyan framework, we could adopt it pretty much verbatim.
- (09/28 16:38:28) Adam {Hoikas}: I can copy over the H'uru launcher and rip out the H'uru-isms
- (09/28 16:38:38) Adam {Hoikas}: if we don't care about history, anyway
- (09/28 16:38:39) rarified: If it uses different configuration requirements, that's a showstopper.
- (09/28 16:39:00) rarified: What you're offering would be a great start.
- (09/28 16:39:54) Adam {Hoikas}: it uses a lot of new systems, but only one of them is an absolute requirement, and it's all internal stuff, nothing outward facing
- (09/28 16:40:35) rarified: Expand please new systems. As long as it doesn't change things like the command line argument handling,
- (09/28 16:40:48) rarified: the magic "event" semaphore, or require a different file layout, it sounds like it would
- (09/28 16:40:49) rarified: drop in.
- (09/28 16:40:52) Adam {Hoikas}: cmd line arguments are unchanged
- (09/28 16:41:00) Adam {Hoikas}: sema is unchanged as well :)
- (09/28 16:41:08) rarified: I can add pretty much any additional toolchain elements needed.
- (09/28 16:41:23) Adam {Hoikas}: the component I mention is called pfPatcher, it's our generic file downloader for the client and patcher
- (09/28 16:41:50) rarified: That reaches out to Cyan's server for non-present files?
- (09/28 16:42:05) Adam {Hoikas}: to whatever server the FileSrv is
- (09/28 16:42:14) Adam {Hoikas}: the protocol remains unchanged
- (09/28 16:42:25) rarified: You allow multiple FileSrv's?
- (09/28 16:42:29) Adam {Hoikas}: not presently
- (09/28 16:42:53) Adam {Hoikas}: that is under consideration though, considering many files have to come from Cyan
- (09/28 16:43:05) rarified: I'd like to hear more, maybe outside of this discussion.
- (09/28 16:43:11) Adam {Hoikas}: sounds good :)
- (09/28 16:43:20) rarified: But this is the type of coordination that we've been missing.
- (09/28 16:44:12) Doobes: I've found IRC chat to be the best spot .
- (09/28 16:44:30) rarified: On the top of the task list right now, is getting the moldy stuff out of Minkata and to Cyan.
- (09/28 16:44:55) Adam {Hoikas}: what is the present Minkata/MOULa delta?
- (09/28 16:44:55) rarified: I took the stance that I wanted to use that as motivation to finish the automated pipeline
- (09/28 16:45:03) Emor D'ni Lap: Cyan wants moldy stuff? ;)
- (09/28 16:45:14) rarified: to Chogon, but perhaps I should focus on hand-rolling the current batch.
- (09/28 16:45:15) Doobes: Uh, Teledahn 2.0? :P
- (09/28 16:45:45) Tai'lahr: hehe
- (09/28 16:45:45) Doobes: A clean slate for some new work would be a great idea.
- (09/28 16:45:50) Adam {Hoikas}: uh, ok, Fallout 4 "moldy food"
- (09/28 16:45:51) rarified: Again, I'm not sure about the exact delta without disappearing for a little bit.
- (09/28 16:46:04) Adam {Hoikas}: ok, let's not lose sleep over it right now
- (09/28 16:46:18) rarified: It did involve some changes in MOULSCRIPT, which is a first time delivery for us.
- (09/28 16:46:40) rarified: It doesn't appear to be a big deal on the surface, but I had to build a new
- (09/28 16:46:48) Adam {Hoikas}: plPythonPack :)
- (09/28 16:46:50) rarified: automation pipeline to check the python packing step.
- (09/28 16:47:08) rarified: (which had not been automated before)
- (09/28 16:48:03) rarified: One of the things I was hoping to find volunteers for, was to help with project coordination
- (09/28 16:48:20) rarified: planning on Minkata. Synchronizing and liason with H'uru.
- (09/28 16:48:33) rarified: Discussing prioritizations.
- (09/28 16:49:03) rarified: I don't think a whole comittee is needed, but someone with their ear to the many voices
- (09/28 16:49:07) rarified: is important.
- (09/28 16:49:49) Adam {Hoikas}: clarification: what is "project coordination planning on Minkata"
- (09/28 16:49:54) Doobes: Forgive my ignorance, but isn't that where sites like GitHub come in? Someone makes a suggested change, people review on their own time and make a decision on whether to add said change or not?
- (09/28 16:50:53) rarified: Not necessarily, Doobes. Earlier, I had listed some assumptions I have been working under
- (09/28 16:51:06) rarified: ever since Uru was offered under Open Source.
- (09/28 16:51:24) rarified: One of those emphasizes that Cyan's needs still are significant.
- (09/28 16:51:46) rarified: A change that someone thinks is simple might look so in isolation, but
- (09/28 16:51:52) rarified: not in a bigger context.
- (09/28 16:52:10) Doobes: Yes, but Cyan can view it too. As can anyone who wants. That's the point.
- (09/28 16:52:16) Emor D'ni Lap: Indeed; that's why any changes - even via GitHub - would still have to be reviewed by Chogon, no?
- (09/28 16:52:35) rarified: I've been caught between two forces. Trying to interpret what Cyan might "want/need"
- (09/28 16:52:36) Doobes: I doubt anything would make it onto MOULa without everyone having a look...including them, right?
- (09/28 16:52:58) rarified: and what the enthusiastic developer community has ready to add.
- (09/28 16:53:26) Doobes: rarified, I think they've mostly moved on. It's time to push the envelope a bit, IMHO. I think we have enough smart people here to determine what will and won't break URU.
- (09/28 16:53:28) rarified: Part of the "Cyan" equation is limiting -- severely -- the demands on their time and resources.
- (09/28 16:53:55) Acorn2019: And again, is that still true?
- (09/28 16:54:15) Adam {Hoikas}: I think if we produce game clients that we can test among users "with a minimum of fuss" we 'll be holding up our end of that bargain
- (09/28 16:54:18) rarified: Uru is still a client-server system. What is sent to Cyan *has* to work in their server environment.
- (09/28 16:54:31) Doobes: Worrying too much about what Cyan *might* not like is tying people hands. If something breaks in Minkata, which is the closest to MOULa, then we can figure out what went wrong before it goes live on MOULa. We can learn more.
- (09/28 16:54:48) Emor D'ni Lap: Is there anyone *at* Cyan who understands URU code and tech anymore (Chogon is freelance)???
- (09/28 16:55:02) rarified: And that IS the whole point of Minkata. Holding as closely to MOULa for people to try their
- (09/28 16:55:09) rarified: ideas as possible.
- (09/28 16:55:10) Adam {Hoikas}: do realize that Uru servers are pretty dumb, rarified. This game was originally conceived as a peer 2 peer experience and the architecture still in many ways holds true to that
- (09/28 16:55:23) Doobes: I would honestly think their only directive at this point is "don't kill or overhack the game". ;)
- (09/28 16:55:43) rarified: I never expected what came from H'uru to be always problem free.
- (09/28 16:55:43) Doobes: Plus some content control, but that's another matter.
- (09/28 16:55:47) Adam {Hoikas}: I do think that testing against something as close as possible to MOULa is a good idea though
- (09/28 16:56:05) Adam {Hoikas}: no contribution is problem free, ever ;)
- (09/28 16:56:15) Doobes: We can't be afraid to break or push things with Minkata, rarified. It's the only way we'll iron out the kinks.
- (09/28 16:56:45) rarified: Doobes, you hold a special place in my heart as a "first content contributor". I know I have let you down
- (09/28 16:57:05) rarified: with the lack of speed to get something ready on Minkata for trying content.
- (09/28 16:57:12) Doobes: Not at all. I know it's not as easy as jamming an Age into the server and hoping for the best. ;)
- (09/28 16:57:28) rarified: I do, however, have a plan that I think is the correct path to take.
- (09/28 16:57:28) Christian Walther: Don't feel like that. We're all volunteers.
- (09/28 16:57:44) Adam {Hoikas}: I still promise that I'm working on that system for spinning up an on-demand test shard :)
- (09/28 16:57:53) rarified: I've tried to reveal what I can without glazing people's eyes over the details.
- (09/28 16:58:10) Doobes: Well, you've got the right crowd for it now. We're not at the AGM. :P
- (09/28 16:58:20) Doobes: Otherwise, the GoW IRC is always open.
- (09/28 16:58:46) Doobes: I've found that to be the best place to chat with most in the crowd here. The admins of both Gehn shard and TOC are there to consult.
- (09/28 16:59:12) rarified: I still am looking for a DB expert for help on the alpha Minkata.
- (09/28 16:59:19) Adam {Hoikas}: Been having barrels of fun with the guys working on something in 3ds Max the last few weeks XD
- (09/28 16:59:28) rarified: Adam and I can disagree on why the two need to be coupled,
- (09/28 16:59:43) rarified: and this is where some philosophy differences come in.
- (09/28 16:59:51) Doobes: And that's kind of where you lose me, rarified. Isn't Minkata itself a test shard? Why not use what you've already got set up?
- (09/28 17:00:04) Adam {Hoikas}: What pilosophy? Why can't we break the testing shard?
- (09/28 17:00:43) Doobes: Error logs. Sweet, sweet error logs. :D
- (09/28 17:00:43) rarified: Yes it is. But I try to empathize with the people we've had testing on the shard in the past.
- (09/28 17:00:50) Emor D'ni Lap: rarified, p[roblem is you're going to have difficulty finding experts in Solaris and PostgreSQL in this tiny community
- (09/28 17:00:59) rarified: I know for a fact we lost some volunteers testing when something that destroyed their prior
- (09/28 17:01:03) rarified: context was lost.
- (09/28 17:01:16) Doobes: Then they need to be made aware that that's a risk.
- (09/28 17:01:23) rarified: So I am very sensitive to having the mainline test shard be
- (09/28 17:01:49) rarified: vulnerable to the higher likelihood that new ages will leave
- (09/28 17:01:59) rarified: detrius or even damage the vault.
- (09/28 17:02:16) Doobes: Then wipe the vault. Better it be Minkata than MOULa.
- (09/28 17:02:20) PodHopper: i can live with loosing my progress if it crashes..
- (09/28 17:02:22) rarified: That is the entire reason for the Alpha shard. That testers don't lose context (i.e. their past time)
- (09/28 17:02:29) Doobes: It just needs to be made crystal clear that that's a possibility.
- (09/28 17:02:49) Adam {Hoikas}: again, vault damage is highly remote. The only time I've seen vault damage in the MOUL era has been because of a bug in the server itself
- (09/28 17:02:59) Acorn2019: If the upside is a new age to test, it's s good offer to testers even with the risk
- (09/28 17:03:04) Emor D'ni Lap: A testing shard has to be considered as just that, and *not* a static play shard to build upon
- (09/28 17:03:08) rarified: Any position is possible. Can we retain "good" testers with those expectations.
- (09/28 17:03:29) Doobes: Just tell them to have fun trying to break things. If they DO break, we learn something. ;)
- (09/28 17:03:32) Adam {Hoikas}: if a tester quits because of a problem, then they are by definition not "good"
- (09/28 17:03:40) Doobes: Think of the stress tests done on other shards. Those were fun.
- (09/28 17:03:43) Adam {Hoikas}: a tester actively seeks breakage
- (09/28 17:03:48) rarified: Not just vault damage Adam, but additional detrius. If an age initially makes nodes that are later
- (09/28 17:03:59) rarified: not used but still linked to, we have junk.
- (09/28 17:04:06) Christian Walther: The other question is, can we retain any testers if there's never anything to test because you're perpetually busy building an alpha shard?
- (09/28 17:04:11) Adam {Hoikas}: that's the way online games work, rarified
- (09/28 17:04:16) Adam {Hoikas}: they build up cruft
- (09/28 17:04:27) Emor D'ni Lap: good point CW
- (09/28 17:04:37) rarified: I hear the "vault-fsck" project ringinging in my ears.
- (09/28 17:04:44) Doobes: That's another thing too. They need something to capture interest. Even if it's ugly as sin and dirty code, testing a new Age would draw a big crowd.
- (09/28 17:05:04) rarified: And yes, we've lost testers too because of inaction. Easy to see in hindsite,
- (09/28 17:05:18) Adam {Hoikas}: I like to think the stuff we have ready to go is not "ugly as sin" Doobes =P
- (09/28 17:05:19) rarified: harder to belive it would happen with "all good plans..."
- (09/28 17:05:33) Doobes: Again, Minkata is a testing shard. If junk accumulates, then perhaps you can find where and why and eliminate the problems.
- (09/28 17:05:42) Doobes: Well, my stuff is. :P
- (09/28 17:05:44) Tai'lahr: You're more likely to lose testers due to lack of something to do than if they lose their accomplishments.
- (09/28 17:05:48) Doobes smirks
- (09/28 17:05:59) rarified: It *might* be, if Minkata can regain a reputation as a "first stop" to expose ages to the public.
- (09/28 17:06:13) Doobes: Again, it must be made crystal clear that losing progress is a possibility, but it'll make a better final product for MOULa.
- (09/28 17:06:27) Doobes: So that it doesn't happen *there*...again. :P
- (09/28 17:06:38) Emor D'ni Lap: well, that would again imply that Minkata could become a "play" shard, which people must be clear it is not
- (09/28 17:06:41) Adam {Hoikas}: pretty sure that was a server bug too ;)
- (09/28 17:06:56) rarified: So, we do have to make some adjustments. For initial testing of ages (right now), Minkata would have
- (09/28 17:06:59) Doobes: Heh, well I don't pretend to understand what happened. I just work here.
- (09/28 17:07:12) rarified: to offer the "Internal" client to load the ages. But to accurately test delivery to
- (09/28 17:07:18) Korov'ev: You lost people who didn't even understand what a testing shard is. That's good for the actual scope of the shard.
- (09/28 17:07:27) rarified: Cyan, we'd have to switch to a "External" context for a period of time.
- (09/28 17:07:38) Tai'lahr: Good point, Korov'ev.
- (09/28 17:07:41) Doobes: Then let's do that.
- (09/28 17:07:52) rarified: Do you think that would prove unpleasent. Alpha was always going to be running
- (09/28 17:08:11) rarified: Internal, and when vault wipes happened there (copying state from Minkata prime)
- (09/28 17:08:23) rarified: It would stay Internal, and prime External.
- (09/28 17:08:33) Doobes: It just seems like another layer that we really don't need, rarified. Plus, you're having trouble even getting it off the ground.
- (09/28 17:08:41) Adam {Hoikas}: rarified, what if we enabled the console on Minkata prime?
- (09/28 17:08:44) Doobes: Plus, can't we do both on regular Minkata? Internal and external?
- (09/28 17:09:22) rarified: We still would have to switch to real "External" before handoff to Cyan.
- (09/28 17:09:23) Adam {Hoikas}: #undef LIMIT_CONSOLE_COMMANDS
- (09/28 17:09:47) rarified: I'm pretty sure they won't accept a client for the general public on MOULa with console enabled.
- (09/28 17:10:00) Adam {Hoikas}: on Minkata, not MOULa ;)
- (09/28 17:10:13) Doobes: Yeah.
- (09/28 17:10:31) Doobes: Again, we keep all the crazy on Minkata, the test shard, so we can have sanity on MOULa. :)
- (09/28 17:10:40) rarified: Yes, but ... what gets marked as accepted from testing on Minkata is exactly what I deliver to Cyan.
- (09/28 17:10:49) Adam {Hoikas}: alternatively, we could have a minkata only KI command for linking to fan ages. That should be small and self-contained enough that patching it only on Minkata will be fine
- (09/28 17:11:14) Doobes: Well, when we have a nearly ready external client, everyone can use that and test the heck out of it.
- (09/28 17:11:20) Doobes: (on Minkata)
- (09/28 17:11:25) rarified: Could you write a description that I could point Chogon at?
- (09/28 17:11:51) Adam {Hoikas}: in reference to?
- (09/28 17:11:59) rarified: Yes Doobes, but we need to cycle the "context" of Minkata at times, which might be unexpected.
- (09/28 17:12:17) rarified: (I know, a lot of mights and maybes. I did a lot of software test design)
- (09/28 17:12:28) Emor D'ni Lap: but what gets delivered to Cyan STILL goes on their 'staging server', which Chogon is okay with having some issues - that's what it's there for, as well
- (09/28 17:12:48) Adam {Hoikas}: I do appreciate that we need to test the external client. We had a not-funny Gehn bug that only affected external clients... several times...
- (09/28 17:13:02) rarified: Only for a quick sanity check from the way the last few deliveries go. They get the package,
- (09/28 17:13:23) rarified: Vicki and Chogon put it on the staging server, and an hour later they have a go-nogo decision.
- (09/28 17:13:45) Adam {Hoikas}: sounds about right
- (09/28 17:14:11) Tai'lahr: Which means they're only looking at the one thing and wouldn't catch anything else that might be wrong.
- (09/28 17:14:13) Doobes: That's fine. If we send them something that's been tested, retested, broken, fixed, refixed, etc...then that's all they'll need to do.
- (09/28 17:14:58) Doobes: But we can't be afraid to break things. It's the only way to fix 'em.
- (09/28 17:15:06) Doobes: Here on Minkata, that is.
- (09/28 17:15:16) rarified: Well, there are a couple of things on the table so far.
- (09/28 17:15:19) Adam {Hoikas}: Just so I'm clear on what we're saying: the external client needs to be tested thoroughly. as unmodified as possible. So, even enabling the console on an external build is a bad idea
- (09/28 17:15:56) Doobes: Really, we'd only need a few people who know what they're doing with an internal client. The rest can test out any external client.
- (09/28 17:15:58) rarified: Adam has an upgraded launcher that it sounds like he's willing to screen H'uru-isms from and hand off.
- (09/28 17:16:14) Adam {Hoikas}: right, rarified
- (09/28 17:16:16) rarified: I can put aside the automation implementation and clear out Minkata.
- (09/28 17:16:44) rarified: I can try to come up with a clearer description of how we can use Minkata more effectively,
- (09/28 17:17:01) rarified: noting that it may be more volatile than it has been in the past.
- (09/28 17:17:13) rarified: That way, once we get the launcher through the pipeline,
- (09/28 17:17:34) Doobes: Again, reiterate that it's a TEST shard and things may get weird or broken...but it's part of the process. ;)
- (09/28 17:17:35) rarified: I can switch to internal mode, so Adam can help debug loading ages. Which IIRC he tried
- (09/28 17:17:46) rarified: to do during the brief view of Alpah.
- (09/28 17:18:17) rarified: Without knowing the internal commands are there, other testers shouldn't be impacted.
- (09/28 17:18:34) Adam {Hoikas}: (with the exception of the L key lol)
- (09/28 17:18:39) Doobes: As far as Ages to test, I have quite a few in various stages that aren't ready for prime-time (ie release), but you can poke holes in them to see what's working and what isn't.
- (09/28 17:19:12) rarified: Some of you have already offered minimalistic ages to try first, just to get to where the
- (09/28 17:19:34) rarified: (an) age from either 3ds or Korman will load, and not trash the place.
- (09/28 17:19:44) rarified: I'd like to start with those.
- (09/28 17:19:57) Doobes has plenty from Korman upon request
- (09/28 17:20:13) Emor D'ni Lap: will have a simple Max/Plasma to you within a few days, rarified
- (09/28 17:20:35) rarified: I have had offers of existing 3ds ages as well, and that might even be the first step.
- (09/28 17:20:44) rarified: See that the current client can still cope with a "new" (non-moldy) age.
- (09/28 17:20:52) rarified: Built with the original tools.
- (09/28 17:20:54) Doobes: As for a simple Korman Age, just tell me exactly what you'd like to include for testing and I can put something together if I don't have it already.
- (09/28 17:20:56) Adam {Hoikas}: the 3ds max ages should be the simplest to integrate
- (09/28 17:21:51) rarified: I *may* also have a way to cook 3ds ages in batch and automated mode as well.
- (09/28 17:22:02) rarified: I have not tried it yet, though.
- (09/28 17:22:14) Adam {Hoikas}: the only sticking point with the Korman ages ***should*** be with regards to how the physics data is exported. It had to change to not be reliant on a 32-bit process on windows
- (09/28 17:22:44) rarified: Too large a dataset?
- (09/28 17:22:48) Doobes: Would there be away around that for now to see if we can at least link in?
- (09/28 17:22:57) Adam {Hoikas}: PhysX 2.6 only works on windows 32-bit
- (09/28 17:23:00) Doobes: Again...basic Age and whatnot. :D
- (09/28 17:23:07) Emor D'ni Lap: and fall through the floor? ;)
- (09/28 17:23:18) rarified: Or that could be an age feature :P
- (09/28 17:23:22) Adam {Hoikas}: MOUL stores cooked PhysX data, which changes regularly, sadly
- (09/28 17:23:25) Doobes: Hey, as long as we can link in, I can put in a pretty skydome for the fall. Hehehe.
- (09/28 17:23:45) Adam {Hoikas}: I 'm good at modelling cubes and planes, so I get all the floors!
- (09/28 17:23:50) Emor D'ni Lap: and a nice screaming sound with Doppler
- (09/28 17:24:04) Tai'lahr: heh
- (09/28 17:24:13) Doobes: Indeed. But seriously, gotta start somewhere, and if that's what it takes...
- (09/28 17:24:18) Doobes shrugs
- (09/28 17:24:26) Doobes: I'm willing to fiddle in Blender for it. ;)
- (09/28 17:24:40) rarified: While this meeting morphed, it has gone in a direction we needed.
- (09/28 17:24:57) PodHopper: it sure is
- (09/28 17:25:05) rarified: I'm glad we could have this chat, and would love to keep things going.
- (09/28 17:25:10) Doobes: One thing you need to remember about most of us is we kinda work in stream of consciousness sometimes...but we come together when needed.
- (09/28 17:25:16) Adam {Hoikas}: we practiced what's called "the educational F-word" ;)
- (09/28 17:25:26) Adam {Hoikas}: (flexibility)
- (09/28 17:25:38) rarified: I willl work on the two items I mentioned as first priority for now,
- (09/28 17:25:49) Emor D'ni Lap: I do need to leave soon; should one of us forward a chatlog of this (very productive) session to MarkDF and Vicki?
- (09/28 17:26:00) Doobes: Couldn't hurt.
- (09/28 17:26:12) rarified: and will look to Adam for help on the next elements.
- (09/28 17:26:21) Doobes: Give them a heads up that things may be flying their way....hopefully soon. :)
- (09/28 17:26:22) rarified: Please don't make me drink from a firehose.
- (09/28 17:26:27) Adam {Hoikas}: lol
- (09/28 17:26:30) Tai'lahr: And you'll join the GoW IIRC?
- (09/28 17:26:31) rarified: (I have a sinus problem)(
- (09/28 17:26:33) JWPlatt: We need to make sure contributions make less demands on your time. i.e., "What can you do for Minkata?" Are demands increased or decreased?
- (09/28 17:26:49) Emor D'ni Lap: thank you rarified and all
- (09/28 17:26:55) Acorn2019 claps her hands
- (09/28 17:27:02) rarified: Thanks for you input Emor, see you later!
- (09/28 17:27:08) Adam {Hoikas}: if we're able to start tracking a curated H'uru branch, that should solve the firehose issue.
- (09/28 17:27:10) Korov'ev: bye EDL!
- (09/28 17:27:16) Adam {Hoikas}: cya Emor!
- (09/28 17:27:21) Doobes: Well, this stuff won't be instant, but it'll happen when it happens. We all have RL junk, so we can respect rarified's.
- (09/28 17:27:23) Emor D'ni Lap: again, my interest is in spreading the load so that rarified does not have to shoulder everything here
- (09/28 17:27:25) Tai'lahr: Safe journeys, Emor.
- (09/28 17:27:33) Mirphak: bye emor
- (09/28 17:28:04) Adam {Hoikas}: I will definitely have at least one question for Chogon about MOUL 's file server. I' ll get with you on that rarified
- (09/28 17:28:17) Emor D'ni Lap: not leaving quite yet ;D
- (09/28 17:28:24) Doobes: :D
- (09/28 17:28:26) rarified: Appreciate your outlook Doobes, and that you've stuck with me so long.
- (09/28 17:28:44) Adam {Hoikas}: (Emor must not notice the cane approaching him from stage right)
- (09/28 17:28:45) rarified: I *do* have good intentions, you know. ;)
- (09/28 17:28:49) Doobes: It's a community for a reason. Just let me know what you need on the Korman end of things and I can supply it.
- (09/28 17:28:59) Doobes: Er, content-wise that is. :P
- (09/28 17:29:45) rarified: With Adam helping work out a better bridge to the Minkata/Foundry environment,
- (09/28 17:30:03) rarified: that's quite a load off of my "how in the world am I going to get that done" plate.
- (09/28 17:30:21) Doobes: Hehehe. He does good work, our Tsar. :D
- (09/28 17:30:26) Adam {Hoikas}: yeah, picking over individual features would be a nightmare
- (09/28 17:31:00) rarified: It certainly is YATS. (Yet another time sink)
- (09/28 17:31:16) Emor D'ni Lap: sorry Deledrius cannot be here as I'm sure he'll have some input later on
- (09/28 17:31:16) rarified: (I come from a classical Unix education)
- (09/28 17:31:24) Adam {Hoikas}: lol
- (09/28 17:31:35) Doobes: I imagine he will, Emor. Shame he couldn't make it.
- (09/28 17:31:53) rarified: Was there a better way to get the word out about needing help?
- (09/28 17:32:04) rarified: Or has our community dwindled that much?
- (09/28 17:32:14) Adam {Hoikas}: this seems a large crowd to me
- (09/28 17:32:17) Doobes: I imagine the usual social media. FB still gets a lot of bites on URU/Myst pages.
- (09/28 17:32:29) Doobes: Forums have kinda died down from what I've seen.
- (09/28 17:32:33) Emor D'ni Lap: The only thing that MIGHT have helped would have been to have this session on the Cyan shard, where folks wouldn't have to register
- (09/28 17:32:47) Acorn2019: yeah, the forums have really dwindled
- (09/28 17:32:47) Adam {Hoikas}: yeah, any time I post new Korman features on the GoW FB it goes nuts, but other than that...
- (09/28 17:32:50) rarified: True, I didn't try FB. I thought Discord would be "the place" though.
- (09/28 17:33:04) Adam {Hoikas}: dunno, I personally despise discord...
- (09/28 17:33:16) Doobes: Sadly, I rarely use it. Social media, from what I've seen anyway, is your best bet. I'll even promote anything you've got on my page.
- (09/28 17:33:27) Emor D'ni Lap: Discord and the FOrums are for the longtime diehards, often not for 'fresh blood'
- (09/28 17:33:39) JWPlatt: I suspect if asking for a Minkata regisrtration is too much to ask, they won't be reliable help.
- (09/28 17:33:49) Emor D'ni Lap: this is possible JW
- (09/28 17:33:51) Doobes: Yeah, to connect with your average explorer, Facebook seems to be the place.
- (09/28 17:34:08) Adam {Hoikas}: possible, but I wouldn't judge them until there's a hook to come here
- (09/28 17:34:18) rarified: Ok. Maybe I'll try again, perhaps offering a poll at an AGM.
- (09/28 17:34:31) rarified: (And announce that on one of the FB groups ;) )
- (09/28 17:34:34) Doobes: Yeah. I imagine with some new shiny content staring them down, they'll jump through quite a few hoops. :D
- (09/28 17:35:16) rarified: Well, we *do* need to have people "help". The need to bring something.
- (09/28 17:35:36) rarified: Pizza.
- (09/28 17:35:41) rarified: Doughnuts are out. Too many carbs.
- (09/28 17:35:48) rarified: Sadly, pie as well.
- (09/28 17:35:51) Adam {Hoikas}: not Little Caesar's. Please...
- (09/28 17:35:55) Doobes: Eh, just give all that to me. XD
- (09/28 17:36:16) Doobes: I'll share with anyone not afraid of the carbs....after I've hoarded it all and had my fill. Mwahahahahahaaa!
- (09/28 17:36:40) rarified: Ok, let's act on what we've talked about today. And see about maintaining communication.
- (09/28 17:36:59) rarified: Thanks for coming, thanks for not bludgeoning me to death.
- (09/28 17:37:13) Acorn2019: great work, rarified and eveyone
- (09/28 17:37:19) Korov'ev: testers get a special shirt on Moula
- (09/28 17:37:21) JWPlatt: Good day all.
- (09/28 17:37:21) Tai'lahr: Shorah, Thoe!
- (09/28 17:37:28) rarified: Shorah JQ.
- (09/28 17:37:35) thoekenem: shorah Tai'lahr
- (09/28 17:37:35) rarified: JW.
- (09/28 17:37:44) Tai'lahr: You just missed a very productive meeting.
- (09/28 17:37:46) Adam {Hoikas}: will probably have some questions in discord later, rarified
- (09/28 17:37:47) Mirphak: hi thoe
- (09/28 17:37:57) rarified: Sounds fine, Adam.
- (09/28 17:38:00) thoekenem: hello mirphak
- (09/28 17:38:07) Doobes needs to get on some more content to dazzle people and possibly break things...for science!!!!
- (09/28 17:38:08) Tai'lahr: But keep watching the forums; they're going to need testers in the future.
- (09/28 17:38:29) thoekenem: sorry, Fil just finished his live music jam session...
- (09/28 17:38:32) Doobes: Oh yeah, but for now, let's see what we can break...then fix.
- (09/28 17:38:34) rarified can tell "Doobes is up to no good"
- (09/28 17:38:53) Acorn2019: I'm good at breaking things lol
- (09/28 17:39:05) rarified: Thank you Acorn!
- (09/28 17:39:06) Doobes: Hey, that Pub worked out some bugs in Gehn...hopefully it'll do the same for Minkata. ;)
- (09/28 17:39:16) Adam {Hoikas}: that doggone pub =P
- (09/28 17:39:32) Doobes: It's a beast, I'll give you that. If a shard can run it, it can run anything. Hehehe.
- (09/28 17:39:35) rarified: Very possibly. MOSS is NOT perfect.
- (09/28 17:39:43) Adam {Hoikas}: I need to get on Deledrius about those doggone MultiStageBehMods
- (09/28 17:40:17) Adam {Hoikas}: rarified, I promise I'm working on a better server! no promises about when it'll be done though :)
- (09/28 17:40:40) Doobes: SOON (tm).
- (09/28 17:40:45) rarified: Cyan time.
- (09/28 17:40:46) Doobes grins
- (09/28 17:40:50) Adam {Hoikas}: Soon? gulp
- (09/28 17:41:05) Adam {Hoikas} eyes the long list of todos
- (09/28 17:41:15) Doobes: Well, Hoikas Soon. Not SOON soon and not Cyan soon. ;)
- (09/28 17:41:33) rarified: Ok. It's off to yard work for me. Winter is coming.
- (09/28 17:41:35) Doobes: (ie at your own pace, of course)
- (09/28 17:41:54) Adam {Hoikas}: ugh, no yard work. it's still 100 F here
- (09/28 17:42:12) Doobes: It's lovely, isn't it? XD
- (09/28 17:42:13) rarified: Northern Rocky Mountains -- 24-30 in snow.
- (09/28 17:42:17) Adam {Hoikas}: dang
- (09/28 17:42:33) Adam {Hoikas}: we're so hot and dry the grass won't grow
- (09/28 17:42:47) Adam {Hoikas}: today is my normal grass mowing day, nope...
- (09/28 17:43:03) rarified: BTDT
- (09/28 17:43:14) Doobes: Yikes. Here, the water keeps rising slightly to flood the parking lot...so you can have some if you want. ;)
- (09/28 17:43:33) Adam {Hoikas}: I don't need your salt water. I like having grass =P
- (09/28 17:43:43) Doobes: Oh, good point.
- (09/28 17:43:45) Adam {Hoikas}: I only had to cut down 17 trees to grow it.
- (09/28 17:44:23) PodHopper: making books of your own?
- (09/28 17:44:31) rarified: Well, thanks again folks. I'll see you, soon (tm).
- (09/28 17:44:35) Tai'lahr: Prairie restoration, huh?
- (09/28 17:44:37) Adam {Hoikas}: cya rarified
- (09/28 17:44:39) Doobes salutes
- (09/28 17:44:39) rarified waves goodbye
- (09/28 17:44:40) Christian Walther: bye rarified, thank you
- (09/28 17:44:46) PodHopper waves hello
- (09/28 17:44:46) PodHopper: bye
- (09/28 17:44:47) Korov'ev: bye rarified
- (09/28 17:44:49) Acorn2019: Thanks again, rarified
- (09/28 17:44:51) Adam {Hoikas}: PodHopper, you know what they say, you 've gotta use a proper Korman.
- (09/28 17:44:52) CaptainQuery: bye
- (09/28 17:44:55) Mirphak: thank you rarified, bye
- (09/28 17:44:56) Mirphak: e
- (09/28 17:44:57) Tai'lahr: Safe journeys, everyone.
- (09/28 17:44:59) Tai'lahr salutes
- (09/28 17:45:01) Doobes: Fan Ages by 2020 (hopefully)! :D
- (09/28 17:45:11) Acorn2019: bye, everyone
- (09/28 17:45:14) Acorn2019 waves goodbye
- (09/28 17:45:18) PodHopper: who knows doobes..
- (09/28 17:45:37) Mirphak: bye acorn
- (09/28 17:45:37) Christian Walther: Bye Acorn
- (09/28 17:45:37) Doobes: Cautious Optimism. ;)
- (09/28 17:45:37) Doobes salutes
- (09/28 17:45:48) CaptainQuery: Shorah all
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