[19:44] Techno: Mark Zuckerberg 2020
[19:44] Techno: Calling it right now
[19:45] Tits: Zuckerberg is a cancerous man.
[19:50] Ogrelord: I can't wait for American politics to turn into a game of billionaires and celebrities with no personal stake running against each other
[20:14] Techno: Zuckerberg vs Kanye for the democratic primary(edited)
[20:14] Ogrelord: This is the cyberpunk future nobody wanted
[20:15] Ogrelord: Also apparently Dwayne Johnson is gonna run
[20:16] Techno: We need to get rid of elections and make elon musk emperor/CEO of America
[20:17] Ogrelord: Nah, he treats his workers like shit
[20:17] Ogrelord: I don't want a dude like that potentially fiddling with labor laws
[20:19] Techno: It's not like they're going to have their jobs much longer. Machines can work 24/7 and don't need annoying things like salaries or health insurance.
[20:21] Ogrelord: Doesn't change the fact that for the time being things would get worse
[20:22] Ogrelord: Unless we start getting things like universal healthcare and a basic income automation just means more homeless people
[20:31] Ogrelord: then again before long we're going to be dealing with environmental collapse anyway so I guess having no food or jobs was inevitable
[20:31] Tits: >implying we should care about homeless people
[20:32] Ogrelord: I mean yeah we should
[20:55] Tits: I care for them so far as they are useful to the state and the nation.
[20:55] Ogrelord: jesus
[20:55] Tits: Idealism gets people killed through ineptitude.
[20:56] Ogrelord: That's the most bootlicker thing I've ever read
[20:56] Tits: I am a bloody ex-fascist transhumanist absolutist. What else you'd expect?
[20:57] Ogrelord: "ex"
[20:57] Ogrelord: Also lol @ complaining about people dying from ineptitude but still dick riding the state and absolutism
[20:57] Tits: Most people are morons
[20:58] Ogrelord: Hardly
[20:58] Tits: Ha
[20:58] Tits: HA
[20:58] Tits: Ha
[20:58] Tits: People are tools, easily controlled and easily used by those smarter and more capable.
[20:59] Tits: We are inequal, there are those superior to others and those should rule.
[20:59] Ogrelord: Except that there's very little benefit to that sort of thing
[21:00] Ogrelord: "Superior" is a fairly subjective measure, and ultimately absolutism is worse at responding to change and meeting people's needs
[21:01] Tits: There is significant benefit, it maximises the effiacy of government and dramatically reduces its ineptitude. Part of the reason why the USSR became strong is that the worthy ruled it during its golden age. They were scum but they were good at ruling.
[21:01] Tits: I would say absolutist isn't entirely appropiate admittedly.
[21:02] Tits: Given how that fails to describe how it view things adequately.
[21:02] Ogrelord: Then why is it that nearly every authoritarian state can have its problems traced back to its authoritarianism?:thinking:
[21:02] Tits: Not really.
[21:03] Tits: That is a misconception and fabrication at best.
[21:03] Ogrelord: Nah it's truth
[21:03] Tits: Most democracies fail in the end or end up declining faster.
[21:03] Tits: When you are ruled by those who are competent, you gain considerable advantages by granting power.
[21:03] Ogrelord: "competent"
[21:04] Ogrelord: Any authoritarian system inevitably breeds people who are competent is the gaining of power
[21:04] Tits: Every system generates that.
[21:04] Ogrelord: How many autocrats have seized power and then failed to do anything constructive?
[21:05] Tits: Many, and I do not approve of them.
[21:05] Tits: I approve of the rule of the worthy ultimately. And those who are the best tend to be those wielding huge power.
[21:06] Ogrelord: The capacity to wield power is not the capacity to wield it to anyone's benefit
[21:06] Ogrelord: Tsars wielded a lot of power, but led Russia to ruin
[21:06] Tits: What I seek is power lying in those who seek to advance the nation.
[21:07] Ogrelord: Fascists wielded absolute power and destroyed themselves and Europe
[21:07] Tits: What led to Russia's ruin was the aristocracy refusing to real with serfdom and the fact that anarchists kept assasinating the actually competent rulers.
[21:07] Ogrelord: The Bolsheviks wielded absolute power and caused their own long, slow death
[21:07] Tits: The USSR died due to its economy
[21:08] Tits: And its ideology which created it.
[21:08] Ogrelord: The USSR's death plays directly into its authoritarianism
[21:08] Tits: No it does not
[21:08] Ogrelord: Yeah it does
[21:08] Tits: That is ignorance plain an simple.
[21:08] Ogrelord: Nah
[21:09] Tits: It is, the command economy of the ussr was simply incapable of dealing with the spending requirements needed and furthermore failed to properly account for prices as well which were lost within such a system.
[21:09] Tits: All systems die due to incompetence.
[21:09] Ogrelord: But I mean their economy was a direct result of authoritarianism so like 50/50
[21:09] Tits: In theend.
[21:09] Tits: No their economy was a direct result of their ideology demanding it.
[21:10] Tits: Authoritarianism does not mean control over the economy
[21:10] Tits: Just ask Pinochet to prove you wrong there
[21:10] Tits: And Singapore
[21:11] Ogrelord: Pinochet left Chile's economy in a bad state lmao
[21:12] Tits: Not really, it was still leagues better than most of SA. Also generally speaking, I harbor a hatred of national socialists and refuse to acknowledge them as being fascists because they weren't. They are two similar but different movements who inhabited the same alliance. Like syndicalism and communism.
[21:12] Tits: The issues with Nazi germany mostly derive from Hitler being a fucking moron as well.
[21:12] Tits: And the fact that he tolerated factions.
[21:12] Ogrelord: Nazis were literally fascists though
[21:12] Tits: They aren't fascist
[21:12] Tits: I can tell you as a former one.
[21:13] Ogrelord: Like the idea that they are two separate things is entirely ahistorical
[21:13] Tits: You are completely incorrect there.
[21:13] Ogrelord: Nah you just don't want to admit it
[21:13] Tits: Italian Fascism is different in its origins, character and purpose to National Socialiism.
[21:13] Tits: Both feed upon similar desires and needs but have different answers to these issues.(edited)
[21:14] Tits: Look at Italo Balbo for proof
[21:14] Tits: And the fact that Mussolini only turned to Hitler because the LON were morons in their handling of Ethopia
[21:15] Tits: Mussolini very nearly went to war with the Nazis over Austria, a fellow Fascist regime.
[21:15] Tits: Now be silent on a topic you know nothing about.
[21:15] Tits: All systems which entrusted power to people in the end were ultiamtely either volitile or reactionary in character.
[21:15] Ogrelord: You mean chest thumping ultranats almost fought?:thinking:
[21:16] Ogrelord: Also "be silent" lmao suck my dick dude
[21:16] Tits: Nope.
[21:16] Tits: You are literally uneducated on this topic.
[21:16] Ogrelord: Nah, I'm just not pulling wool over my eyes
[21:16] Tits: You do not know the differences and the naunces between the movements and the way they manifest.
[21:17] Tits: If your answers are basically "nah that is wrong" then you have no argument.
[21:17] Ogrelord: A few subtle differences don't actually make them not fascists
[21:17] Tits: No it is greater than that
[21:17] Tits: They have completely different origins, manifestations, goals, etc.
[21:17] Tits: British Fascism, under Mosley was Fascist.
[21:18] Tits: Italian Fascism is the origin of it.
[21:18] Ogrelord: There are a few differences between ancoms and marxist-leninists but they're both coms.
[21:18] Ogrelord: So let me get this straight
[21:18] Tits: The difference between Fascism and National Socialism for me is like the difference between Syndicalism and Communism.
[21:19] Tits: They come from similar routes, causes, etc but are ultimately different.
[21:20] Ogrelord: Despite natsocs citing Italian fascists as a progenitor, sharing almost all the same tenets, and the actual Italian fascists in power supporting them, they're different
[21:20] Ogrelord: Like the only material difference is that nazis are inherently also racial chauvinists
[21:20] Tits: National Socialists do not cite Italian Fascists as progenitors, they do not share the same tenets and the Italian Fascists only came to support the Nazis due to political convience and hsitorically mocked and loathed them.
[21:21] Ogrelord: One is just a subset of the other
[21:21] Tits: It is not.
[21:21] Tits: To claim it is as such is ignorance.
[21:21] Ogrelord: Nah it's just inconvenient
[21:21] Tits: Quite literally.
[21:22] Tits: No, you are objectively wrong.
[21:22] Ogrelord: Nah
[21:22] Tits: In this instance.
[21:22] Tits: I have proved it as such.
[21:22] Ogrelord: No you haven't, you've made a lot of assertions
[21:22] Ogrelord: A lot of claims
[21:22] Tits: You have made baseless assertions.
[21:22] Ogrelord: A lot of whining
[21:23] Ogrelord: But no proof
[21:23] Tits: How ironic.
[21:24] Tits: The only reason why Italy allied with Germany is due to the fact that the League of Nations made it hard for them to ally with old Entente block and Germany remained the only potential ally. It was done on the grounds of realpolitk. And even then plenty of famous fascists opposed the Nazis and their actions as well. You are making a simple brush because it is easier for you to mark them as the same ideology when they are not.
[21:24] Ogrelord: Except they literally are
[21:25] Tits: They aren't.
[21:25] Ogrelord: "Oh yeah well not every single fascist ever agreed" is not a point against that
[21:25] Ogrelord: The actual material difference between the two is negligible
[21:26] Ogrelord: Except the nazis were more competent
[21:26] Ogrelord: But that's a low bar to cross
[21:26] Tits: It's more that the Germans were lucky and the Italians fucked over by the Germans going to war three years early.
[21:27] Tits: Although there is a case to be made that Hitler did only desire Danzig as Pat Buchanan points out and that Hitler just miscalculated.
[21:27] Ogrelord: No it's that the Italians are hilariously incompetent
[21:27] Tits: They were incompent because they went to war unprepared.
[21:28] Tits: And had poor leadership for that matter.
[21:28] Ogrelord: Going to war unprepared is a sign of incompetence
[21:28] Tits: They did not want to but were bound to by treaty.
[21:28] Tits: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italo_Balbo#Munich_crisis
Italo Balbo
Italo Balbo (Ferrara, 6 June 1896 – Tobruk, 28 June 1940) was an Italian Blackshirt (Camicie Nere, or CCNN) leader who served as Italy's Marshal of the Air Force (Maresciallo dell'Aria), Governor-General of Libya, Commander-in-Chief of Italian ...

[21:28] Tits: After Adolf Hitler came into power, threatening Italian interests in Austria and the Danube basin, Mussolini proposed the Four Power Pact with Britain, France and Germany in 1933. When the Austrian 'austro-fascist' Chancellor Engelbert Dollfuss with dictatorial power was assassinated on 25 July 1934, by National-Socialist supporters, Mussolini even threatened Germany with war in the event of a German invasion of Austria. Mussolini for a period of time continued strictly opposing any German attempt to obtain Anschluss and promoted the ephemeral Stresa Front against Germany in 1935.
[21:28] Ogrelord: Except treaties didn't mean shit in WWII
[21:29] Tits: They did at the start.
[21:29] Ogrelord: The nazis weren't going to invade them for not fighting
[21:29] Ogrelord: Literally the only people the Italians had a good show against were the Albanians
[21:29] Ogrelord: Who the Italians TRAINED
[21:30] Tits: I mean I am not denying they were incompetent.
[21:30] Tits: Also it is generally a bad idea to piss of your only ally.
[21:31] Ogrelord: The fascist government of Italy actually managed to be worse than the previous gov
[21:31] Ogrelord: The people in charge of implementing fascism literally ruined Italy
[21:32] Ogrelord: That whole period pretty much discredits fascism as a valid ideology
[21:32] Tits: Not really
[21:32] Tits: Had Italo Balbo been leading Italy I doubt that any of the issues that emerged would have persisted.
[21:32] Tits: Given how he was far more competent than Mussolini
[21:33] Ogrelord: Jesus himself wouldn't have fixed the issue
[21:33] Tits: No, the principles are generally speaking fine. It is those who led the system that were flawed.
[21:34] Tits: My ideal system regardless is closer to the Qin regardless, without their approach to executions.
[21:34] Tits: Stalin anyways by your logic is Fascist
[21:34] Des: The French baguette chomping commies should've just agreed to transfer Nice and Savoy to Italy
[21:35] Tits: Given how his regime shared huge similarities to Nazi Germany
[21:35] Tits: Without the racial ideology.
[21:35] Ogrelord: If your system allows for incompetent idiots to so thoroughly rule your country, it's an indictment. Mussolini is a classic example of what I was talking about earlier
[21:35] Tits: All systems allow that however.
[21:36] Tits: Democracies allow even more people to rule than usual.
[21:36] Ogrelord: Namely: being good at seizing power doesn't make you good at being a leader
[21:36] Tits: And more idiots.
[21:36] Tits: Also I agree with that principle.
[21:36] Ogrelord: Hardly, democracies have a mechanism with which to get rid of poor leadership
[21:37] Ogrelord: Hence why democratic states typically outperform nondemocratic counterparts
[21:40] Tits: Firstly if you look at the evidence you are incorrect there. Most democracies are either failed states, in decline, or not actual democracies . Secondly, democracy has ensured incompetent leadership throughout it few years on the planet. Thirdly, compared to the record of the better monarchies around, monarchy achieves far better results in the end. Fourhtly, geography is the ultimate decider of the success of states regardless and many democracies function in very advantegeous areas which gives them an unfair advantage.
[21:40] Ogrelord: Except that's wrong
[21:41] Ogrelord: A good government absolutely plays a role in a nation's success
[21:41] Tits: You misunderstand
[21:41] Tits: It is one of the reasons for success but isn't necessary
[21:41] Ogrelord: And a good government necessarily requires being able to adapt and react to change and the needs of a population
[21:42] Ogrelord: Which more authoritarian systems fail to do
[21:43] Tits: Democracies fail to adapt as well often.
[21:43] Tits: And do so only when it is too late.
[21:43] Tits: Due to their short time preference.
[21:43] Ogrelord: Not nearly to the same extent, no
[21:43] Tits: Take Britain in the 1950s to the 80s.
[21:44] Tits: Leadership short term and incmpetent regardless of who was voted in
[21:44] Tits: But Harold wilson's re-election in particular helped kill off the UK
[21:44] Ogrelord: The UK that. . . still exists?
[21:44] Tits: And it was barely revived thanks to the nercomancy of Thatcher.
[21:44] Tits: The UK is practically dead as a nation.
[21:44] Tits: It has lost everything
[21:45] Tits: It is a satellite of the US
[21:45] Tits: Winston killed it in WW2
[21:45] Tits: What we have been witnessing since then is its slow death via assisted suicide