Settler Violence: Transcript of interview between Yaakov Katz, Lahav Harkov and Oded Revivi

Settler Violence: Transcript of interview between Yaakov Katz, Lahav Harkov and Oded Revivi
Feb 9, 2022


The following is a transcript of a 25-minute interview between Yaakov Katz and Lahav Harkov of the Jerusalem Postand Mayor of Efrat Oded Revivi on the subject of settler violence, as appeared in the Jerusalem Post podcast of January 27, 2022.

Yaakov Katz: Oded Revivi, it’s great to have you with us on the Jerusalem Post podcast.

Oded is the, as we said the mayor of Efrat, a long time leader of the Judea and Samaria Council, and for a long time also served as their foreign envoy. So he was the person who was basically the face of Judea and Samaria and the Jewish communities, also known as the settlements to the world. And Oded, we’re talking to you because on Friday, when there was that incident near the Palestinian village of Burin, you were really the first I would say, so called settler leader who came out and made a basically – condemned this violence said, this isn’t what the way of the Jewish communities of Judea and Samaria, but that there was silence for most of your colleagues.

So first of all, I’m just curious, how do you view what’s happening? Because unfortunately, we’re continuing to see incident after incident after incident, this is causing damage to the State of Israel and to the settlement enterprise, I would say, how do you view this whole situation?

Oded Revivi: So I think the situation is very complex. And I think that’s why their responses are very complex. But generally speaking about the video and the visual pictures that we started seeing, if in the past, they were mainly done at night, secretly, and without leaving any trace of evidence that could lead to the people that actually did acts of violence. And it was something which wasn’t as visual, you could see the damage done afterwards, you could see the graffiti that was done afterwards. But you didn’t see the actual incident taking place. And I think what we’ve started seeing in the last few months, which is really an indication of what’s been happening in the last two years, is a somewhat a shift from maybe a maybe even acts, which was done by smaller groups, but definitely more disguised groups, to something which is happening more openly during the daylight, no fear of having footage of it. And I think that’s basically the major change, which is also brought to the different coverage in the media, of these incidents.

Lahav Harkov: To some extent, it seems that the incidents are becoming more severe, right. But in the past, it was, you know, once in a decade or so that you would actually have physical violence, there would be a lot of sort of like graffiti. But the incidence of physical violence seemed rare. And it seems like lately, there’s a lot more rock throwing and sort of direct violent confrontations.

Oded Revivi: I don’t know, to say if they’re more severe or less severe. I think we all remember very severe incidents that did happen in the past. And the fact that they didn’t always, were concluded with an investigation that actually put the people responsible behind bars is a completely different aspect and issue. But it’s definitely things which are being done widely and more out there. And without having to fear for doing it at night and not being caught or videoed with it.

Yaakov Katz: I would think, right, that if I was one of the leaders of the Yesha Council, like yourself, and like many of your colleagues, I would be the first to come out and condemn and say, This isn’t our way. And this isn’t who we are. And, and this is a rotten weed from among us. But obviously, you know, anyone who, whether I think in Israel, you know, maybe the extreme left would think a little differently. But I think anyone who’s obviously on the right or even in the center, even the moderate left understands that this is a fringe tiny minority of people who live in the West Bank. This is not the majority of the 400 to 500,000 people who live there. And but it causes a terrible name for all these people, it makes it seem to the world, like this is a plague almost, like it’s happening all over the place, but it’s not. And that’s why we think that everyone should stand up and say this is a problem, but unfortunately, we’re not hearing them.

Oded Revivi: I think here’s my second part of the answer, which is the problem of responding and how do you actually respond? So on the one level, you have a mayor’s who would say, you know, nobody is condemning acts of rape or terror, or violence happening in Tel Aviv, because everybody understand that that’s not the responsibility of the mayor of Tel Aviv or the mayor of Jerusalem. It’s the responsibility of the police, any other security service that might be relevant, and we expect them to deal with it. The other challenge with responding to such incidents is when you actually respond, you basically echo the actual incident. And if you want to deal with it, you want to try and squash it. I decided to go publicly against it because basically what you’ve said within your question that I think it is important to differentiate and say this is not any sort of representation of the vast majority or even a large group of people, we’re talking about a very small, violent and very, very minor group that needs to be treated. But I think also my choice to actually and condemn it and go out publicly against it, is because I think there’s a much greater picture. And I think we’re, the residents of Israel all over are starting to feel more and more that there is lack of a governing by the government, by the security forces by the police, by the army. And it is true when we see it in the mixed cities. It is true, and we see it in the Negev. And it is also true when we see it in and Judea and Samaria. And I think my approach was really to try and create a louder voice, to start taking responsibility and dealing with it. And specifically talking about this, there is general understanding that nobody’s really dealing with it. Nobody is dealing with it in the circles of security and law enforcement. But nobody is also dealing with it with the educational system, or the social services. And even programs which were funded by the government in the past have basically closed down. And there is this problematic youth, there is this violent youth, which are not obeying rules and regulations and law and order. And it’s the job of the government to start understanding that you can’t ignore these problems, and you have to deal with them.

Lahav Harkov: So what do you think can be done? I mean, there’s this phenomenon of Hilltop Youth, and they’re not all violent, but it seems that the violence comes from them. You know, it’s kids who are sort of the teenagers mostly who are like runaways, and you know, just sort of pitching a tent trying to start their own sort of settlements on different hilltops and living their lives like that. And as you said, that they have like no educational framework. They’re just very, very ideological, sort of fervent and run away to do these things. And what do you think the solution should be? How should they be dealt with?

Oded Revivi: I’m not even sure that all of them have an ideological background or justification for their acts. Some of them might get caught in it just because of the fun just because they want to feel strong, just because they want to get attention. And we’re not even talking about people who do it because of ideological reasons. And I guess, obviously, that there are some people who are motivated religiously, or ideologically. But I think the truth of the matter is, it’s an issue of national government. Something has to do with all the circles involved. And I’ll just give you one insight, which basically, yesterday I found out was that Roi Sharon on Channel One all of a sudden reported the jump in number of cases. And I spoke to him after the interview that he gave. And I said, what’s happening. And he said, that, for the it’s been just two years that the Shabak[Israel’s internal security service, the Shin Bet] have started looking into the issues. Up until now, it was issues which were only treated by the police. So we see that even between the security forces, there is no coherent understanding as who is dealing with it, what sort of measurements need to be taken. And when you understand that acts of violence and breaking the law, are happening without the organs of the country, which are supposed to deal with it, are not synchronized and dealing with it together, then we can’t even understand or expect it to see the educational system or the social services, actually treating it properly. And on times like this when everybody is really bothered with COVID, and now with the snow, you see that Issues like this all of a sudden develop and grow larger to become national issues. And unfortunately, I don’t see at the moment, the government sitting around a table and saying, “Okay, this is the problem. This is how we’re going to split the treatment and who is taking responsibility and actually leading the program to make sure that these issues don’t repeat themselves.”

Yaakov Katz: So basically, what you would like to see if I understand correctly, is you want more police involvement, more Shabak involvement, you think they just need to step up?

Oded Revivi: I don’t think it’s just an issue of force and security, and police and Shabak. I think definitely you need to examine from the beginning you know, why did these kids drop out of the educational system? What went wrong? How come the social services weren’t able to actually assist them and make sure that they don’t deteriorate into becoming a law offenders and violent people. At the end of the day, there also needs to be legal measurements against people who do those things. So people will actually be afraid of being so open and public and doing these acts of violence. I can tell you another thing, which I’ve discovered exploring this issue is that a lot of the violent student on completely on the other side, or within the Arab cities, the police found out that some of the youth who are doing the act of violence, they are not afraid of the security cameras around the places where they’re actually doing their acts of violence. And it was very weird, you know, you thought that the cameras would deter them and prevent them from doing it. And then they discovered that actually, they want to be filmed, because they enjoy the fact that the films that they’re starring in, actually appear on social media, and then they repeat it in Tik Tok. And then they actually get a wider coverage of their acts. So sometimes we think of thinking of the problem and solving it in old mechanisms. We think that if it’s actually being recorded, it will prevent people from doing it, when we actually see that they actually look for places where the cameras are around. So what I’m saying is that it has to be something which is coherent with all the different ministries in the government, and to try and come up with a program

Yaakov Katz: Oded, Oded. But come on, come on, you’re a veteran of a long time, Mayor, a politician, you want the Israeli government to come up with a clear coherent policy on an issue. Yeah. I’m saying that sarcastically. But I mean, come on.

Oded Revivi: Ya’akov, Yaakov. I think at the end of the day, we know one another long enough that I completely understand what the question is coming from. And I think you’re completely accurate. But I think just like you said, you know, these pictures are causing Israel damage in the international community, these pictures at the end of the day create a picture of a reality in Israel, which is far from normality, or a widespread issue. And when people think of it at the end of the day, as something which is local and very minor, and we don’t, we don’t, we’re not going to put the funds to deal with it. It can actually, at the end of the day, meet us in the United Nations or meet us in the Human Court of Justice [sic], without understanding how such small incidents have a built up to international issues. And unfortunately, if the State of Israel won’t deal with these issues, so we’ll be confronted with way bigger problems than what we are facing at the moment.

Lahav Harkov: So I a few weeks ago, wrote about people in Bennett’s PM office talking about the Biden Administration being obsessed with settler violence, that they ask about it and complain about it all the time. And of course, the Biden Administration is also not a fan of construction of new homes, in Israeli communities in Judea and Samaria. And I guess I wanted to know, from your perspective, as someone who’s sort of in the government in Judea and Samaria, where do things stand? How much is that pressure having an impact on the situation on the ground?

Oded Revivi: I don’t know how much the Biden Administration is having pressure on what’s happening in Judea and Samaria, I think there’s enough pressure within the Israeli government to actually put the whole issue of Judea and Samaria, building in Judea and Samaria to a complete standstill, because there’s absolutely no understanding between or no agreement between the different parts of the coalition to know what the policy that they want to lead. Regarding that the American Administration, I would only say that when the State of Israel doesn’t have a clear policy as to where they want to lead, or how they want to govern a specific region, then you have outside forces, like the American Administration, taking advantage of it and really ask questions, which are leaving the Israeli government, a puzzle. And then when you hear a minister who’s meeting a senior official from the Administration, that that was the question that she asked in the meeting. So you know, instead of putting it in perspective and saying, you know, we’ve got way bigger issues, we’re dealing with bigger problems, that all of a sudden becomes the major topic of discussion where they could have used the valuable and precious time that they have to discuss way more important issues. And but that’s, again, where you put the focus and how much energy you actually put into the important and big issues and how much the small sometimes loud incidents, distract the attention and all they do spend the valuable funds on it, instead of it.

Ya’akov Katz: Oded, have you felt in under the government now that’s the Bennett-Lapid government while working with Biden, have you felt in Efrat, which if people don’t know, but I’m sure people do know Efrat just south of Jerusalem one of the larger towns in in Judea and Samaria, if you felt the freezer at all or more difficulty in approving construction projects.

Oded Revivi: Definitely, there’s a sense of a building freeze, and things are not being developed. Infrastructure is not being promoted and invested. But again, you know, it six months, seven months since this government has come into power, I don’t think that that is the problem that we are facing, I think the problem that we’re facing is that we have a government that because of its and different parts, different parties taking part in the government, they’re only going to agree on what they agree on and they’re not going to discuss what they disagree. And then you have an issue, which you can’t say we’re not discussing it because Judea and Samaria is a large area of the state of Israel, it has half a million Jewish residents in it. And you can’t say I’m not discussing these issues, because they’re in dispute. And when you don’t discuss issues which are in dispute, there is no vacuum. And that becomes a reality, which builds up. And I’m not trying to justify justifying the acts of violence that we discussed in the beginning. But part of the frustration that I hear from people who decide to take the law into their own hands, and again, I completely disagree with them, and I condemn them. But part of the reason that they’re giving themselves justifying taking the law into their own hands is that they’re saying that they don’t see enough enforcement of the law by the Israeli government, whether it’s against illegal building in Area C, or taking over state land and issues like that, which again, the government is saying, we’re not dealing with it, because it’s a hot potato. So you build up frustration amongst people that decide to do even worse things and take the law into their own hands. And that’s the worrying situation.

Lahav Harkov: I want to ask you about something you just mentioned that illegal construction by Palestinians in Area C. So this week, the government announced that they are going to demolish Khan al-Ahmar, this illegal Bedouin encampment outside Kfar Adumim finally, after many, many years, however, they’re going to rebuild it 300 meters away. And so some people were complaining that this is this doesn’t count. I’d like to know what you think about it.

Oded Revivi: You know, for us, Israelis, there used to be a joke, and which was an expression, don’t do Salah Shabbati. Salah Shabbati was a basically as a new immigrant to Israel, who tried to raise the nations and used to plant the tree and then the cover the tree with a hat and get more donations to plant and other trees. If this is the first tree in the forest.

Lahav Harkov: And our listeners might know. It actually won an Oscar back when the movie came out. It was a black and white movie, I think in the early 60s. But anyway, yes.

Oded Revivi: So that’s right, that we’re trying to fool everybody. And I think the people of Israel, after four rounds of elections after seeing such cynical, and politician promises being basically turned around in 180 degrees within minutes. And people are starting to be fed up with such solutions that are not really dealing with the problem. Again, I voiced a maybe an unpopular vote, a voice but I said that when there is a building freeze in Area C for the Palestinians, and that they don’t get the right to build and there were hardly, if any, building permits to the Arabs in Judea and Samaria for the last 10 years. So it’s like a pressure cooker, it will blow up somewhere, which is not planned and not convenient, in the worst timing for us. And all of a sudden you see a lot of illegal building area. See why? Because there’s no legal mechanism that can actually build in Area C. So instead of taking our prerogative as a governing body, as the government responsible as the ones who are actually managing this region, and decide these are the areas where the Arabs are going to build, and make sure that it’s connected to infrastructure and make sure that you’re directing in which path you want to govern this region, we find illegal building happening all over. But there’s illegal building happening going over, so the Jews see this illegal building happening. So there are two types of responses. One, okay, so now let’s we start building illegal outposts and all sorts of structures, because that’s the only way that the government is allowing us to build or going and protesting against that building, which is done by the Arabs. Though again, it’s an example of where there’s lack of government, and definitely lack of policy. So now with Khan al-Ahmar. So what are they saying? Oh, the Supreme Court has told us we have to demolish it. But it’s too controversial demolishing it won’t look good in the, in the eyes of the international community, their families, which are living there, which we don’t know how to explain that we’re demolishing their houses, they will say, Okay, we’re demolishing this house, but we’re building you another house 300 meters down the road. That’s not policy that may be solving this specific issue. And I think residents in a state…

Lahav Harkov: But defense minister guns did approve, like thousands of homes to be built for Palestinians in Area C recently. So, is that something that you support?

Oded Revivi: So first of all, let me correct you. It wasn’t thousands I think it was 1000. And I was again, Yaakov will probably can show you up in the, in the memory box that I was one of them. Maybe even the only one, we actually praised the government for actually making that decision. But just think about it, okay. It was 1000 units. After 10 years of not building? I can tell you that in the small city of Efrat 15,000 residents, when 1000 units were approved, they were sold in no time. So we can understand that for the whole population, the Arab population of Judea and Samaria, 1000 units is really nothing.

Yaakov Katz: A drop in the bucket.

Oded Revivi: Yeah, and again, it was only you know, I think it was really put out in order to reduce criticism that Gantz sees allowing Jewish building into Judea and Samaria. They said, Oh, I’m also allowing Arab building in Judea and Samaria. But again, it’s not policy. It’s not making decisions. Where are we going to build? Where are we going to allow them to build? How do we want to develop this region? And it’s really upsetting the…

Yaakov Katz: Nobody wants to make a tough decision, Oded. But I want to ask you, just before we wrap up, one, one easy question. I’ll throw a snowball your way. So you’re the mayor of Efrat, you’re gonna we’re talking Wednesday, midday, big storm coming, you’re going to get a lot of snow? No?

Oded Revivi: Well, I don’t know who your listeners are. For here, a lot of snow is 40 centimeters. For people in the States. 40 centimeters is a regular day

Yaakov Katz: I know, but 40 centimeters here shuts down the country. Right? We won’t be able to move, if there’s…

Oded Revivi: So, basically that’s the situation at the moment that sun is shining. But already, people have made decisions yesterday, that today they’re closing the schools at one o’clock. Why? Because the storm is on the way. At the moment the predictions are that the snow will start falling in the evening. So there’s a question. Why did people already close schools earlier on today? But you know, it will be fun. Everything will look clean. It will be coated in white.

Yaakov Katz: And as the mayor, you’ll have to clear the roads, right? I’m guessing that’s part of the job, right?

Oded Revivi: Yeah. And again, I mean, it’s an excellent example of how a fraud has managed to build extremely good relationship with our Arab neighbors. And we have already a drill that when the snow starts falling, we call our Arab neighbors that they come with their heavy equipment. They’re the ones who clear at the street for us. We paid them for that. And it’s again, just one of the corporations that we have with our Arab neighbors, which we’re proud of and we definitely try to share it to the international community.

Yaakov Katz: Well, Oded Revivi, the mayor of Efrat, thank you very much for being with us.

Oded Revivi: My pleasure.