kek 3

<DarnellJermaine> just like you know a lot of this lore and other gms don;t
<DarnellJermaine> if even staff have trouble following there's no way players can
<BobaFettuccine> Yeah, I agree. GM's need to get on the same page about a few things.
<Kioku> I have no idea about Kali because I was awake at night instead of day at the time.
<Kioku> Most characters only get looked at by two GMs, you know?
<DarnellJermaine> right, but then if the other gms were on the same page lorewise as you
<BobaFettuccine> Like, even mechanics wise I have been told exact opposite things by you and Silvy on a rule before Kio.
<DarnellJermaine> they woulda let CZ know "hey you can't have a /real/ god"
<DarnellJermaine> even though he /did/
<Kioku> Although large-scale lore contradictions like anything involving gods would have, yeah... should have been mentioned
<DarnellJermaine> and it's not like cray where he was just crazy, he had some sorta weird semi-gm powers
* SpookyBee isn't really a fan of the 'no godly beings' thing
<BobaFettuccine> He says you can do Anomalous generation multiple times, you say only once. I have still not gotten a clarigication on that.
<Kioku> You can do it multiple times, just not for more than 4 xp's worth per tier.
<DarnellJermaine> I wouldn't mind no godly beings if we didn't have weird stuff like eldritch peeps, demons, angels, etc
<BobaFettuccine> He has literally told me as many times per tier as you want.
<DarnellJermaine> cuz then it just makes things more confuing since irl those things are associated with gods or powerful beings as well
<BobaFettuccine> He has said this multiple times.
<DarnellJermaine> and silvors is the next most active GM to you
<BobaFettuccine> Once while you were on and actively talking.
<DarnellJermaine> in fact, usually the only 2 people I can get to approve sheets are you and him
<DarnellJermaine> since you guys are the most active
<Uracilo> I... really don't see why you'd limit anomalous generation when there's a choice of it not counting towards tier
<Kioku> Okay, I legit don't see what demons have to do with godly beings, when it comes to real world lore even.
* EndPhone mutters about his not being able to approve sheets
<DarnellJermaine> demons in most lore represent evil
<DarnellJermaine> the duality to good
<Kioku> Angels... yeah, I think it's kinda weird, sure.
<DarnellJermaine> in most spiritual traditions and religions
<DarnellJermaine> good and evil exist because you can differentiate
<EndPhone> Kio, because demons/Devils are intermixed in our major religions
<DarnellJermaine> and you can differentiate because of higher powers
<Kioku> But in the end it's just another species living in their own place
<DarnellJermaine> I don't know how you don't see demons and gods cooperating in real life, cuz that's a thing most the time
<Kioku> I don't see one as necessary for the other
<DarnellJermaine> that's how like a majority or religions or spiritual beliefs involving demons work
<Kioku> And I see plenty of stuff about demons show up /without/ having something to do with a religion.
<Uracilo> I mean, the point is that the name has connotations that you're... selectively hearing? I don't know where you're coming from Kio
<DarnellJermaine> gods is also vague
<DarnellJermaine> like you say there are no gods
<DarnellJermaine> but even not counting kali, plenty of chars like Ura said earlier have godlike powers
<BobaFettuccine> Kio. Can you please talk with Silvy about that thing I mentioned, because it has yet to be clarified. It is an actual mechanic that I have had two opposite responses about from two GM's.
<DarnellJermaine> is your definition of god simply the person who created the universe?
<DarnellJermaine> because even things like greek mythology have gods that are strictly involved only with earth and a certain element
<Kioku> I'll poke at Silvy when they're next online
<EndPhone> like said, the term "god" has no meaning, and is pretty much self-appointed
<DarnellJermaine> god certainly has meaning
<BobaFettuccine> DJ I do think you're getting a bit too caught up over the word god.
<DarnellJermaine> I am because it seems arbitrary that there are no gods but there are gods character wise
<DarnellJermaine> so I'm confused
<Kioku> DJ, more of there's nothing that could be considered a god with the connotations that the world generally brings up.
<Kioku> *the word
<DarnellJermaine> ok that makes sense to me
<Kioku> Like, "nothing is worthy of the term"
<EndPhone> there is no confirmed Devine creator, and anything calling itself a God is doing so because they want to
<EndPhone> is that a good summary?
<DarnellJermaine> the only thing that conflicts with that still is kali, but I won't bring that up since like you said you're not sure on it
<DarnellJermaine> because being able to devour the universe and that being your goal seems god-esque
<DarnellJermaine> since the universe (unless there's more lore I'm missing) seems to be the end all be all
<Kioku> Some of the greek gods might have been particularly powerful anomalies posing as divine figures
<Kioku> ... But most of them were probably just made up for stories
<DarnellJermaine> ok now that that's explained it makes more sense (again besides kali)
<DarnellJermaine> I can live with that because that doesn't break 99.99% of char canons
<Uracilo> But is that canon, or just your opinion?
<SavanahHolland> greek gods didn't create the universe, I know that's slightly off topic, but intresting
<Uracilo> Because I mean, echidna is canon through a character
<Kioku> There's also the implication that 'gods' have something do do with (or at least some knowledge of) an afterlife of some sort
<Uracilo> And I could go ahead and write a cahracter that's the son of the grey sisters tomorrow
<EndPhone> There is nothing stated in canon about the Greek "gods" existence as of yet
<Kioku> And the RP's position is Enforced Agnosticism
<Kioku> (Not the setting's necessarily, but the RP's)
<Uracilo> Like, what I'm asking is for a standard
<SavanahHolland> at some point I wanna do a character somehow related to Bacchus
<Uracilo> Will the canon bend for a character I or any other player writes?
<SavanahHolland> but das just me
<DarnellJermaine> I think sav that neon did that
<DarnellJermaine> with thea
<Kioku> What happens after death is unknown, unknowable, and /must remain unknown and unknowable/ is one of the main rules
<DarnellJermaine> but Dionysus
<DarnellJermaine> which is the greek flavor of bacchus
<Kioku> Right alongside "time travel is impossible"
<SavanahHolland> True XD
<DarnellJermaine> but how is it unknowable
<DarnellJermaine> if there are chars that can bring people back
<Kioku> And "You can't know the future for sure"
<DarnellJermaine> wouldn't they know?
<Uracilo> If that was true why did you approve Ilario?
<SavanahHolland> I could maybe pull it off by making it different, who knows
<Kioku> They wouldn't know
<DarnellJermaine> also future- isn't there a fortune teller char, that belongs to a gm too?
<DarnellJermaine> LT has a tarot card thing that canonically is accurate, yes?>
<Kioku> There's a difference between knowing and predicting.
<DarnellJermaine> fair enough
<Uracilo> Maybe make note of that, then?
<Kioku> It is noted actually.
<DarnellJermaine> I would make a link to this lore page in char creation and the home page
<DarnellJermaine> instead of just on the side
<Kioku> "One can make excellent predictions, but choice is always a factor that can't be known for certain"
<SavanahHolland> I remember one character who could see the future
<Kioku> ... Okay yeah, that'd probably be for the best.  Right now it's just linked from Setting Information.
<Kioku> I remember Lucius
<SavanahHolland> said that Wendy was going to offer him to play cards, didnt even ask me
<Kioku> WHo could see possible futures
<SavanahHolland> Wendy wouldn't ask that ever
<Kioku> ... And who also made stuff up apparently
<Kioku> lol
<Kioku> But I think he only lasted like 2 days anyway...
<SavanahHolland> yeaaah, good character, annoying power
<Uracilo> My questions still stand
<Kioku> -> Also yeah, the canon can bend, add new things to accomidate characters, but it can't break.
<Uracilo> 1- Will canon bend on the wake of new characters
<Uracilo> 2- If the afterlife is unknowable, why did you approve Ilario
<Kioku> Or at least, stuff shouldn't break.
<Kioku> And... what does Ilario have to do with afterlife?
<Uracilo> I specifically mentioned several things in his backstory
<Uracilo> That I have since edited to make him more compatible with Nadia's canon
<Kioku> I'm looking at Revision 1
<Kioku> And...
<Uracilo> For example that he was sent to gather souls, and that he had a past life that's divorced in time from him so he could still hear it speak
<Kioku> It looks like just angelstuff
<Kioku> Nothing to do with any acutal afterlifestuff
<Uracilo> Maybe I wasn't clear enough then
<Uracilo> Ilario did and still does have a lot of stuff to do with the afterlife
<Kioku> The whole past life thingy with Nadia-Angels bouncing between 'hosts'
<Uracilo> Which is apparently not something he can have anything to do with
<Uracilo> So when I started making an angel, I would've liked the warning
<Kioku> Though it wasn't really clear that it was an angel back during approval either...
<Kioku> I hadn't a clue they were supposed to be an angel until WAY later, actually
<Kioku> So at the time, I guess I probably thought the past life stuff was supposed to be just delusion
<SavanahHolland> Nadia is the best parasite
<DarnellJermaine> if theres no afterlife
<DarnellJermaine> how does dragonwielder's character have the memories of all past lives
<DarnellJermaine> wouldn't those memories be dead and gone along with the bodies of said ancestors?
<DarnellJermaine> where would he draw them from?
<Kioku> It was the genetic memory character or something, right?
<DarnellJermaine> how does memory become genetic
<DarnellJermaine> and wouldn't his previous ancestors then have had the same power?
<Uracilo> I mean, he remembers dying as each of them so
<DarnellJermaine> There are dormant genes but they don't work where thousands of years pass since mankind starts and only 1 person gets them
<Uracilo> It's not like he got the memories from when they conceived the next one
<Kioku> Unnoticed memory-sharing-only hive mind?
<Kioku> Iunno.
<Kioku> That would still have to account for only one family line's memories
<Kioku> No branching out so much from there.
<EndPhone> I mean, reading the past is possible, right Kio
<EndPhone> ?
<Kioku> True
<Kioku> The past is observable by some powers
<DarnellJermaine> but then why specifically every memory of that person
<DarnellJermaine> rather than past events objectively
<DarnellJermaine> those are different concepts
<DarnellJermaine> that's more like past-mind reading
<Kioku> And the past has happened, it's not still happening, so past mind reading wouldn't work...
<Kioku> Hrmmm...
<EndPhone> Iunno, that's something the player should be able to come up with?
<Kioku> Could just be a limitation of it.  Can observe the past from certain perspectives, rather than of certain places
<Kioku> But yeah, not sure.
<Kioku> Whatever the case, there're other ways to explain it.
<Kioku> Regardless of how it /actually/ works.
<Uracilo> As far as I'm concerned, the setting has an afterlife. Sorry Kio, but like
<Uracilo> Everything has a soul
<Uracilo> There are beings that can pluck them out
<Uracilo> There are literal reapers in the setting that go looking for illegal immortals
<Kioku> Ah yes, death's enforcers.
<Uracilo> There are angels and devils running around claiming people are doomed to hell
<Uracilo> It's about as ambiguous as an anvil to the face
<Kioku> (Okay, angels are confirmed as generally either indoctrinated, crazy or both, and... okay, I've got nothing on devils.
<Kioku> Fearmongering maybe
<Uracilo> There could easily be a being of tremendous power just plucking every soul the moment someone dies and dumping them in a washing machine
<SavanahHolland> indoctrinated, Nadia was kinda an isolated thing
<Kioku> (I don't know about Ilario, but I've seen 3 indoctrinated angels, one of which was also crazy.
<Uracilo> There's no reason why there wouldn't be
<SavanahHolland> since Jude was placed in a disturbed body
<Uracilo> Correction
<SavanahHolland> with literal brain damage and trauma
<Uracilo> There is a reason, but it's as arbitrary as reasons get
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<Kioku> I will note that if you see someone resurrect a dead person, and you have someone who can see souls, you won't see the soul 'come back' to the body.  You'll see it reboot.
<Kioku> But
<Kioku> That could also just mean it's put back in the right place from the start
<Kioku> So it means not much either way
<Uracilo> I disagree that that's true
<Uracilo> I don't think that's how the soul manipulators would describe it
<Uracilo> You're making an arbitrary judgement based on arbitrary rules
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<DarnellJermaine> if that's true kio
<DarnellJermaine> what purpose does a soul serve
<DarnellJermaine> it seems like a vestigial thing if it can be manipulated and attacked and serves no bodily function
<DarnellJermaine> and you can't say it animates life because bodies work just fine without them
<DarnellJermaine> and you can make artificial life
<Kioku> It's essentially analougous to the mind
<Uracilo> None. It's just a "general representation of the person's psyche, emotional makeup and general personality", which is just arbitrary
<Uracilo> And isn't even interesting
<Kioku> Or -
<Kioku> Sure, that's a way to put it.
<DarnellJermaine> again vestigial
<DarnellJermaine> it seems to serve no purpose
<DarnellJermaine> and only has weak points
<Uracilo> It's just a way to route the attempts of people of making souls a thing
<Balthazaar> Hallo
<DarnellJermaine> hiya!
<Kioku> It /is/ something that should try to be made clear to any character who can observe souls, actually.  If you see someone die, you see the soul wink out, not move.  If you see someone return to life, you see it blink on again, not 'return.'
<Kioku> Ura: Honestly, maybe it is exactly that
<Kioku> Because souls weren't /supposed/ to be a thing
<Uracilo> Yeah, okay, but now they are
<Kioku> But then someone started referencing them and messing with them before that could be made clear
<Uracilo> They clearly are
<Kioku> So it had to be adapted to
<Uracilo> Bend the canon
<Uracilo> Stop breaking the characters
<Kioku> But the way Jan was messing with them /was/ what we bent the canon to work with.
<Kioku> Being a representation of self, mind, and personality
<Uracilo> Okay, so now there can't be two different power interactions with something named the 'soul'
<Uracilo> That could be two different things
<Kioku> Well
<Uracilo> Considering Jan's power was to dive into people's dreams, he could've easily just believed somethign that wasn't true
<Kioku> There's apparently "aura energy" that Val messes wtih
<Kioku> And I think he sometimes calls or thinks of it as the 'energy of the soul'
<Kioku> even though the soul we've got over there wouldn't put out that sort of thing at all
<Kioku> So yeah
<Kioku> There you go
<Kioku> Two types of souls, basically
<Uracilo> Or, you know
<Uracilo> Maybe he's right
<Uracilo> And the setting has no business ruling otherwise
<Uracilo> Because every character should have the chance to be right
<BobaFettuccine> But what about Leah?
<BobaFettuccine> Doesn't she do stuff with soul energy?
<Uracilo> Maybe they're all simultaneously right
<Kioku> I've looked at Leah... and Leah does some weird stuff with spirit energy /and/ some other types of energy, and honestly I don't know how to keep her straight.
<Kioku> I don't even know if soul was one of them.
<Uracilo> It certainly seems to all work how they expect it would, regardless of your rulings a posteriori
<EndPhone> nobody does
<EndPhone> That's why I put on Eponnie's page "no soul, aura, life force, etc."