prole judgement - foxxy vs pob

##Foxxy vs PoB

#Aragorn vs Geralt:

**PoB 1:**

- Geralt and Aragorn have similar fighting styles and very similar feats.

- However, Geralt is on a horse.

- Aragorn’s ranged pickup is not as big of a threat to Geralt (he can deflect arrows) as Geralt’s is to Aragorn.

- Geralt gets to ranged spawn first, because he’s on horseback, and then because it’s through a tunnel, he can seal it behind himself with his magic. No bow for Aragorn.

- Aragorn uses his magic to ragdoll Aragorn around, which Aragorn has no answer to.

**Foxxy 1:**

- Attack troll feat puts Aragorn over Geralt despite comparable physicals.

- If they clash blades, Aragorn wins.

- Aragorn’s reaction & movement feats are better than Geralt’s.

- Crossbow feat is after being held at arrowpoint for considerable amount of time, lots of room to anticipate.

- A stone from a sling, a slower projectile, beaned him in the head when he couldn’t anticipate it.

- Aragorn won’t give Geralt time to anticipate an arrow.

- Aragorn good tracking.

- Aragorn good hearing.

- Geralt has like one feat for smell. Aragorn has the better senses.

- Aragorn knows where Geralt is anywhere on the island.

- Geralt’s magic only really staggers mooks and Aragorn can withstand skull avalanche. Won’t be ragdolled.

- Geralt has one or two advantages but Aragorn beats him where deficits matter, in melee w/ attack troll strength and in ranged w/ surprise arrows.

**PoB 2:**

- Aragorn scales to the wrong Troll subspecies. Doesn’t get man-flinging strength.

- Aragorn also doesn’t actually strength scale to the troll, who bodies him.

- Geralt strong, actually does send creatures flying with his strength.

- Aragorn slow, bad arrow feats, bad quickdraw feats, bad endurance feats.

- Geralt mostly dodges the sling stone in that feat, and the sling is hurled from close range through obscuring brush, mitigating it being slower than crossbow bolts.

- Geralt very clearly was only grazed, because immediately after he beats up the slinger.

- Geralt crossbow feat fast.

- If you don’t like that crossbow feat, here’s another.

What is even going on in this? Does the crossbowman even fire? Because it doesn’t seem like it.

- Geralt’s magic strong: busts a wall, sends big monsters flying, sends groups of men flying.

- Aragorn’s skull avalanche feat is fake, he’s clearly staggered. Also surface area fairy.

**Foxxy 2:**

- PoB failed to stip in Roach

- Doubling down on that attack troll feat.

- Trolls are similar in size between scenes and so should be consistent.

- Aragorn holds back a troll another time.

- Aragorn loses to the troll, but fact he can briefly match it shows “short bursts” of troll level strength.

- The striga thing Geralt sends flying is visually much smaller than a troll despite what PoB claims.

- Aragorn’s senses are relevant to the fight because he always knows where Geralt is, Geralt can’t say the same.

- Aragorn still wins in melee because troll strength.

**PoB 3:**

- Roach is stipped in, Tad fucked up.

Yeah, sorry. My bad.

- Foxxy hasn’t even engaged in relative speed of geralt to Aragorn.

- The troll in the Aragorn strength scan has people come halfway up their torso where the big trolls with good feats have people barely come up to their thighs. Clearly smaller, weaker.

- Screenshots to prove it.

- Aragorn stabbing a troll w/ a polearm =/= strength scaling. The troll stops charging not because Aragorn is physically holding it back but because it has been stabbed and doesn’t want to continue running into the big pointy stick stabbing it.

- Aragorn choking a troll by a chain leash around its neck =/= strength scaling either.

- This is also a different kind of troll from the one that sends guys flying.

- As it stands, the troll feat is around equal with Geralt’s Striga feat, but Aragorn doesn’t do anything but defend himself using it. Not offensively applicable.

- PoB clarifies he means striga feat was showing similar strength feat of scaling to something larger and heavier than a human, but Geralt sends it flying where in his feat Aragorn is the one who goes flying.

- Striga is still a big lass.

- Geralt has a great sense of smell to match Aragorn’s hearing. Mutual detection.

- Aragorn has not been argued to do stealth a single time so the wincon of “arrow from stealth” is irrelevant.

- Both crossbow feat and sling “antifeat” are better than Aragorn’s susp arrow feat.

- Aragorn’s throwing dagger deflection is RL human level based on how far away he recognizes it whereas Geralt's Closer range  crossbow and even sling feats are superhuman.

**Foxxy 3:**

- Aragorn has feats of mogging mounted enemies. Roach doesn’t matter.

One is from horseback and in the other he’s almost trampled before he manages it. Not a good look.

- Horse means Aragorn hears Geralt all the better because horse is antistealth.

- Aragorn attacks from stealth, making geralt’s ranged pickups not matter

PoB asked for an aragorn stealth feat and has still not recieved it.

- Tripling down on Troll feats. Aragorn overpowers Troll w/ polearm, doesn’t just stab it.

I’m.. not convinced.

- Attack trolls should be even stronger than stonebusting cave trolls

Why?

- Aragorn hunts sensitive deer silently.

- Geralt’s only sense feat is smelling stinky unwashed bedding from up close.

- Geralt probably doesn’t have better sense than a deer, and so Aragorn can sneak up on him like he would during a hunt.

- Aragorn is also accurate and has a bow, a better long range weapon than Geralt’s magic. Aragorn outranges and snipes.

- Vaguely threatens OOT.

I’m starting to hate it when people do this. Just make the OOT request.

- Something something Aragorn fast

- If Geralt is really 5x faster than Aragorn he’s OOT

His argued arrow feat still just looks like him flinching while lightly jogging backwards. I can buy Geralt being 12 times faster than that.

**Result: Geralt Win**

In a rehash of last round, the troll scaling Aragorn needs to be a competitive melee fighter crumbled early and Foxxy wasted far too many words trying to shore it back up. Geralt is undeniably faster and stronger than Aragorn, an advantage compounded by Aragorn’s lack of a mount and Geralt’s knockoff FUS RO DAH shennanigans after he invariably gets to ranged first and proceeds to cockblock Aragorn out of his bow by sealing the tunnel. Foxxy relied too much on unsubstantiated Aragorn stealth to win this where Geralt won any straightforward encounter.

#Lupin vs Artemis

**PoB 1:**

- Lupin is slowed down by having to get in the car and start it. The car probably won’t be very fast going through the tunnel.

- Lupin’s grappling hook is slow.

- Artemis has good ground traversal feats

- Artemis blitzes goons, avoids crossbow bolts, takes on lots of dudes at once, fights wounded, etc. etc. Generally skilled, fast, durable.

- Artemis has a very cool sword that cuts good.

- Artemis has a very cool knife that saps strength

- Artemis sneaky breeki.

- Artemis sneaks up on Lupin and skewers him.

**Foxxy 1:**

- The paths on the island are wide enough for cars. Lupin can go anywhere on the island, including ranged pickup.

- Lupin is a skilled driver in tight/bad conditions.

- Lupin’s car can reach its top speed in literal seconds.

- Artemis’s spawn is open sand, bad for stealth.

- Lupin gets a clear view of his spawn from his car.

- Lupin has good eyesight and marksmanship, will have no problem sniping Artemis from his car while driving.

- Artemis’s speed isn’t on a car’s level and it’s also bad. Lead foot lol.

- Lupin climb good. Lupin also has grapple.

- Lupin can use the car as bait, climb above the ranged spawn entrance, and lynch Artemis from above w/ grapple.

- Lupin IC likes to lead more skilled melee opponents into traps.

- If he doesn’t just shoot Artemis.

- Even if Artemis hides, Lupin has good hearing.

- Artemis is unlikely to know what a gun is

- Reiterating, Lupin skilled with gun.

- Lupin could probably react to Artemis’s throwing knives even in a worst case scenario of ambush

**PoB 2:**

- Artemis stealthy, even in the open.

- Lupin’s hearing feat is fake, has is already familiar with those cars. It is him hearing a difference in a very audible sound from what it should sound like, not him hearing a very quiet assassin.

- Artemis 2 stealthy.

- Lupin’s feat of reacting to throwing knives is bad because jump cuts.

- His dart catching feat is bad because he is facing towards it and sees it coming, and won’t for Artemis’s throwing knives.

- The knife biting feat is slow.

- Actually, Jarlaxle is perfectly familiar with guns.

Well alrighty then! Not the rebuttal I was expecting but very cool.

- Lupin’s counter stealth is bad and therefore it has not been proven he can even detent Artemis, meaning stealthfuck ensues.

**Foxxy 2:**

- Artemis’s bridge stealth feat is fake, the guy isn’t even looking at him. There are also crowds of people around in the feat disguising his footfalls.

- Lupin is good at spotting ambushing assassins.

- Lupin can avoid strikes from Cagliostro assassins who aimdodge Jigen’s pistol.

- Artemis can’t ambush Lupin and if he tries, Lupin just dodges.

- Artemis sucks in other ways too. 1k run up a hill leaves him panting hard. Lupin would hear him out of breath as he approached.

- The cave isn’t actually dark enough for Artemis to stealth through invisibly.

- Artemis seems to regularly engage in straight open fights instead of stealth ambushes. Why would he not do the same to Lupin?

- Either he IC just really prefers straight fighting to stealthkills or he’s not a good enough sneaky boi to reliably avoid detection even from the mooks he fights

**PoB 3:**

- Lupin OOT. That’s the post.

**Foxxy 3:**

- No he’s not.

**Result: Artemis Win by OOT**

Yes he is.

Lupin is an incredibly strong character pick from Foxxy and utterly dominated last round. Unfortunately, he drove too close to the sun in the tiretracks of Speed Racer before him and Foxxy wound up arguing him *too good* in his efforts to disprove Artemis’s stealth as a viable option against car go vroom tactics. Lupin undeniably trumps Artemis by getting to the ranged pickup first and then either simply driving around until he spots Artemis out of stealth with his eagle eyes for a clean snipe or just plans a counterambush using his impressive array of mobility options. All this also applies to Lara who is even less equipped than Artemis to deal with Lupin because of the straightforward nature of Config 1 and her own inability to deal with the car outside of her bow.

#Sokka vs Jarlaxle

**PoB 1:**

- PoB admitted no travel speed feats for Sokka last round

- Jarlaxle has hardcore parkour, moves after a crossbow bolt fires.

- Ipso facto ergo, Jar gets to ranged spawn first

- He also gets to ranged spawn first because he can skip the long route and just levitate up to it from the back.

- Jar knives good.

- Jar knives GOOD

- Sokka cannot react to the bullet hell of fast + accurate knives Jarlaxle will send his way.

- Sokka likes to block throwing knives and Jar’s might just break his weapons given prior interactions w/ metal armour.

- Jar’s sword cuts through metal weapons + armour and embeds in stone.

- Jar’s sword even cuts through metal armour, something something Drizzt scaling.

- Jar throws down dark globe which he can fight in fine but Sokka can’t.

- Jar regularly fights more skilled people than Sokka does.

- Sokka loses his weapon if he tries to parry or block against Jar’s supernaturally sharp sword.

- That includes the boomerang, which Jar cuts out of the air.

- Or just dodges

- Or it just misses because Jar casts dark and Sokka can’t aim.

#Foxxy 1:

- Drow don’t like the sun. The match takes place in daylight.

- Jar is off his game from the start.

- The same good Sokka feats from last round, Sokka strong, fast, skilled.

- Jar’s skimpy on physicals compared to Sokka.  His only strength feat was while amped and Sokka matches it.

- Sokka has feats for reacting to throwing knives and Jar’s other speed feat of blitzing goons isn’t all that special.

- Crossbow feat is iffy, wording about skipping off stone between them. Shooter probably missed.

- Literary feats are hard to gauge speed from, making his speed vague.

- Sokka runs faster than Water Tribe warriors.

- Sokka skilled with Boomerang, uses the rebound to his advantage.

- By feats, Sokka can hit people who can dodge the boomerang w/ tricks & misdirection.

- Jar lacks dura and therefore a single glancing boomerang hit puts him off his game to be killed w/ Space Sword, if he isn’t flat out unconscious.

**PoB 2:**

- Sunlight weakness isn’t a big deal, Jarlaxle has acclimated to desert sun conditions

- Also there are caves here and Artemis can just make it dark with dark globes.

- Sokka’s strength scaling to the big owl’s dura is sus.

- Also the feat relies on him aided by gravity.

- Also Wan Shi Tong uses his shoulder and whole torso to bust walls, not just his head.

- Sokka being able to react to individual throwing knives/several knives travelling in the same direction is irrelevant.

- Jarlaxle just fills the air with knives and also predicts enemy movements to make dodging/reacting impossible.

- Jarlaxle’s throwing knives still pierce enchanted metal. Sokka dies and his weapons get shredded if he uses them to block/parry.

- Sokka’s swordfighting feats show him using parries, and as previously discussed Jar’s sword just cuts Sokka’s weapons apart.

- The daggers are infinite. Sokka can’t dodge/deflect forever.

- Sokka running speed is fake he outpaces soldiers by like 2 steps.

- Jarlaxle still moves in reaction to crossbow bolt in air. Is faster.

- Zuko speed scaling is fake, he just stands there and takes it.

- Azula is also standing still.

- Jar will not stand still.

**Foxxy 2:**

- Foxxy admits Jar is merely uncomfortable in the sun. Argues Sokka will still exploit this IC. Has used similar strats before.

- Jar retreating into a cave or his darkness to catch a break from the sun would let Sokka reposition somewhere better suited to his fighting style.

- Sokka uses the environment. Can use island trees like he does Bamboo in the Piandao fight.

- Sokka and Jar probably meet in the middle of the map before either have ranged pickups, making knives irrelevant for early fight.

- Wan Shi Tong breaks stone with just his beak, isn’t reliant on his full body. Strength scaling real.

- Sokka’s throwing knife reactions are “complex actions” because he is recognizing a threat to his sister, positioning himself between Mai and Katara, and swinging his club in the time the daggers are in the air.

I don’t really understand this as an argument for Sokka being able to deal with daggers from multiple angles flying all over the place given that Mai’s daggers are still just a straightforward cluster of projectiles in the same direction.

- Mai can do lots of things at once with her throwing knives like Jar.

Okay neat show Sokka reacting to her doing those lots of things at once.

- Sokka’s space sword strong. Cuts metal & stone like Jar’s magic sword. Why should Jar’s sword cut it?

- Movement speed =/= combat speed, so Sokka’s outrunning charging soldiers is still better than Jarlaxle’s crossbow feat for getting to ranged spawn.

- Zuko has feats for reacting to things coming at him from blindspots.

- Sokka has feats for using boomerang to disarm from Appa’s back, and so can compensate for movement on Artemis’s part.

- Sokka fights intelligently & creatively, and Jar doesn’t get to his ranged spawn first. Sokka’s boomerang > Jar’s daggers.

**PoB 3:**

- Sokka’s light reflection is reliant on the monocle helmet that he didn’t pack as equipment by stips.

- Jarlaxle also wouldn’t care considering he stares at his own flashbangs and is fine.

- Monocle sunlight gif is also an antifeat for Sokka speed since he fails to react to an arrow, losing his hat because of it.

- Foxxy hasn’t engaged with Sokka having to fight Jar under the effects of Globe of Darkness.

- Adding to this, Sokka would also be blinded by Jar’s flashbangs.

- Wan Shi Tong str scaling is not replicatable.

- Performing a complex action against a few daggers thrown at the same speed in the same direction =/= ability to repeatedly perform those complex actions against sakuya
touhou dagger bullet hell.

- Artemis, who avoids crossbow bolts, can’t dodge against Jar forever and neither can Sokka/

- Mai scaling might work if Sokka actually deflected knives from Mai when she was doing complex things with them instead of just straightforward throws.

- Jar still moves comparable speed to crossbow arrows. Who cares about Sokka outrunning adults?

- Sokka’s sword is in a different league from Jar’s, which cuts armour capable of noselling boulder splitting arrows. Sokka’s sword has no such dura.

- Zuko was hit because he was standing still and caught off guard. Was expecting a sword because they were sparring with swords. Sokka cheated.

- Sokka disarming Mai =/= “compensating for movement” it’s just anticipating when she’s raise her hand to throw knives.

- Jar has been shown as a mobile fighter, leaving Sokka little room to set up gimmicky distractions using the environment.

- Jar has a passive magic shield that deflects weak projectiles. Sokka’s boomerang probably isn’t powerful to make it through.

- Conceded point about parrying projectiles, but his friends do and he’s parried many dangerous weapons.

- Sokka still has no blindfighting feats so he autoloses inside globes of darkness.

**Foxxy 3:**

- Sokka can replicate the light reflection feat with his sword or boomerang, point of feat was to show it’s something he’d think of in a fight.

- Jar’s flashbang feats don’t actually describe Jar looking at them.

- Sokka will just run away if the globe of darkness comes out, he doesn’t need to fight on Jar’s terms.

- Globe of Darkness has only apparently been used once in 30+ novels. Would it even be IC for him to spam?

- Solid scan showing even well acclimated Drow is “drained and dizzied” by sunlight.

- Jar can run to caves and hide in globes of Darkness, but Sokka doesn’t actually have to engage him in such unfavourable conditions.

- Would it even by IC for him to cower like that instead of fighting?

- Just using his beak to shatter stone implies very hard skull for Wan Shi Tong.

- Sokka strong, more feats.

- More “complex actions” arguments.

- Daggers don’t matter if Jar and Sokka meet pre-ranged spawn.

- Diving and rolling to avoid crossbow bolts =/= Jar’s movement speed. He’s not gonna be dodge rolling everywhere that isn’t IC.

- Drizzt feat just splits a boulder. That is comparable to Sokka bisecting a stone practice dummy. Drizzt’s sword Jar’s sword doesn’t cut Sokka’s sword.

- Sokka’s boomerang strong. Jar’s magic shield only deflects lvl 1 goblin attacks.

- Jar still has no dura.

- Sokka mogs

**Result: Jarlaxle Win**

This was extremely close for me. PoB undoubtedly proved that Sokka just loses to Jarlaxle with his throwing knives and Jar is no slouch in melee, with flashbangs and darkness globes as excellent “get off me” tools he can use to force Sokka to withdraw and give him a chance to go for the ranged spawn or fight in an extremely disadvantaged state. However, Foxxy effectively dismissed Artemis’s in character projective parrying that PoB relied on as an answer to Sokka’s boomerang, and showed that Sokka is skilled enough with it to potentially catch Jar off guard for a knockout. Foxxy also had a persuasive last response which cast doubt on Jarlaxle’s IC use of Globes of Darkness, his immunity to his own flashbangs, and convinced me that Jarlaxle is fighting off his game here in the sunlight like any Drow, especially given that the only fights PoB provided for Jar’s acclimation to sunlight did not demonstrate unimpeded combat ability, only the ability to bear the obvious discomfort it caused him while travelling mounted. Foxxy also used his final response to substantiate Sokka’s strength, demonstrate Jarlaxle’s glass cannon status, and to favourably compare his sword with Jarlaxle’s in an attempt to disprove Jar’s demon blade cutting his weapons apart. Unfortunately, by scaling above the boulder splitting bow, Jar’s sword is still going to cut apart Sokka’s weapons and Sokka as well. Despite certain potentially viable wincons presented for Sokka, 8 times out of 10 Sokka just dies too early to a sword he can’t parry or gets mogged when Jarlaxle gets his knives.

#OOT Results:

**Lupin:**

Lupin is Too Cool for Tier

I hate to kill my darlings, but yeah.

“Car is about as fast as horse” is not a great argument here given the logistical difference between a car and horseback mount and arguing about how silent Lara is and then turning around and saying Lupin just relies on his keen eyesight to beat stealth is too much. Lara could very feasibly beat Lupin if he was argued as being weaker against her stealth and there was more to do with arguing how badly Lara mogs him in melee or at range with her bow.