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Miners Jihan Wu & Jiang Zhuo'er chatlog on Litecoin Segwit

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  1. The follow chatlog is between Chinese miners and a Litecoin developer discussing activating Segwit on Litecoin
  3. Original file is available here with the sha256sum hash of d3e7183ce9967880c1d73d46ddcadbfcb5c64ba92b3f9ae0d4ae5a910d1060d8, which was timestamped into the Bitcoin blockchain
  5. ————— 2016-11-24 —————
  7. 小寒 Jihan Wu 5:10 PM
  8. 大家好,建立这个包含了大多数算力和主要开发者的群聊,便于沟通Litecoin的有关事宜。
  9. Hello everyone, this group is created to facilitate communication about Litecoin between main developers and the majority of hashrate providers.
  11. Xinxi Wang 5:11 PM
  12. [强]
  13. emoji
  15. 火星人Ryan 11:34 PM
  16. [Hug][Hug][Hug]
  18. 火星人Ryan 11:35 PM
  19. [Kiss][Kiss][Kiss]
  21. གཉིསལྔ་གཉིསགསུམ། 11:40 PM
  22. hello
  24. Xinxi Wang 11:42 PM
  25. 莱特币现在开发力量在慢慢壮大,不够目前还比较薄弱,需要各位的大力支持[抱拳]
  26. Litecoin's dev team is getting stronger, but atm it's still pretty weak and we need your support.
  28. Xinxi Wang 11:44 PM
  29. 开发团队不就会发布0.13版本,其中将包含一些非常重要的更新
  30. The team will releas ver 0.13 in a short time which contains many significant changes.
  32. Xinxi Wang 11:45 PM
  33. 到时候也需要矿池的积极配合
  34. ANd we need the pool's cooperation as well.
  36. 小寒 Jihan Wu 11:47 PM
  37. 别弄SegWit了行不
  38. Could you stop with Segwit okay
  40. 小寒 Jihan Wu 11:47 PM
  41. 我们都要有全职开发了
  42. We are gonna have full-time devs soon
  44. 小寒 Jihan Wu 11:47 PM
  45. 一起弄Litecoin Unlimited
  46. Let's work on Litecoin Unlimited together.
  48. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 11:48 PM
  49. 我反正是坚决反对软分叉SW
  50. Personally I am strongly against a soft-fork SW.
  52. 小寒 Jihan Wu 11:48 PM
  53. 跟Bitcoin Classic一起搞FlexTrans
  54. Let's work on FlexTrans together with Bitcoin Classic.
  56. 小寒 Jihan Wu 11:49 PM
  57. 不然以后跟在Core屁股后面跑,有一种未来看不到光明的感觉
  58. Or we will only be blind followers after Core's ass, which makes you feel like you cannot see the light of the day.
  60. 火星人Ryan 11:50 PM
  61. @Xinxi Wang 目前协议更新的主要内容包括SW吗?
  62. @Xinxi Wang is Segwit a major part of the updates to the protocol(Litecoin's)?
  64. 小寒 Jihan Wu 11:50 PM
  65. FlexTrans框架我们很喜欢,但是需要聚集开发,一起完善细节
  66. We like the FlexTrans framework a lot, but we need to refine the details with devs.
  68. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 11:50 PM
  71. 小寒 Jihan Wu 11:50 PM
  72. SegWit是Core的东西,维护很复杂,以后跟在他们屁股后面,被动
  73. Segwit is Core's stuff, the maintainence would be complicated, and we will have to blindly follow them, which puts us in a disavtantaged position.
  75. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 11:51 PM
  76. 莱特最近一年多对比特的走势是这样的
  77. The trend of the price of Litecoin wrt Bitcoin is like this
  79. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 11:51 PM
  80. 越来越低,跌去了70%
  81. lower and lower, 70% lower
  83. Xinxi Wang 11:51 PM
  84. 这个是Litecoin的开发路线图,0.13我们已经开发好几个月了。估计过几天就要发布了:
  85. This is the roadmap of Litecoin, we have spent several months developing 0.13, and it will be released in a few days.
  87. 火星人Ryan 11:54 PM
  88. SW在路线图里面
  89. SW is in the roadmap.
  91. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 11:55 PM
  92. 软分叉SW未来技术债很重,不值得搞
  93. The future technical debt of a soft fork SW is heavy, it's not worth it.
  95. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 11:55 PM
  96. BTC还有个短期缓解区块拥堵压力的附加好处,LTC根本没必要搞
  97. For BTC, SW at least has the benefit of releasing tx congestion pressure in the short term, it's just not necessary for LTC.
  99. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 11:56 PM
  100. 并且,LTC跟着BTC屁股后走是肯定没前途的,币价只会越来越低
  101. Besides, LTC has no future being a blind follower of BTC, the price can only get lower.
  103. Xinxi Wang 11:57 PM
  104. 莱特币一直以来都非常缺开发力量。最近我拉进来了3个哈工大的同学和校友进入了开发团队,所以一下子好了很多。
  105. Litecoin has been in a shortage of devs for a long time, I just got 3 of my schoolmates from(a Chinese University) to join the team, so it's much better now.
  107. 火星人Ryan 11:57 PM
  108. 团队人员在哪里?
  109. Where are the new team members?
  111. Xinxi Wang 11:57 PM
  112. 之前莱特币确实是一直跟在比特币后面走,因为没有办法,缺乏开发力量。我自己也是前几个月加入的。
  113. Until now LTC indeed just follows BTC technically, we have no option, we don't have development strength, I myself only joined the team afew months ago.
  115. 火星人Ryan 11:58 PM
  116. SW我也不建议上,争议非常大
  117. I don't recommend SW either, much controversy.
  119. Xinxi Wang 11:58 PM
  120. 不过这几个月情况有所转变。
  121. But things are starting to change the last few months.
  123. 火星人Ryan 11:58 PM
  124. 莱特币在没有面临转账数量压力的情况下,不应该走这一步
  125. Without tx pressure, LTC shouldn't take this step.
  127. Xinxi Wang 11:58 PM
  128. @火星人Ryan 我拉进来的开发人员都在北京
  129. @火星人Ryan the newly joined devs are all in Beijing.
  131. 火星人Ryan 11:59 PM
  132. 社区关于莱特币的讨论和新闻都绝迹了
  133. Almost all discussions and news about LTC have disappeared.
  135. 火星人Ryan 11:59 PM
  136. 这个是啥情况
  137. Why is this.
  139. Xinxi Wang 11:59 PM
  140. 最近据说有矿工支持开发,以后发展肯定是越来越好。
  141. We have heard that there are miners willing to support the development, it's only going to get better.
  143. 火星人Ryan 11:59 PM
  144. 莱特币要走自己的道路,不能继续简单地跟着core走
  145. Litecoin must carves out its own path, instead of just following core.
  147. ————— 2016-11-25 —————
  149. Xinxi Wang 12:00 AM
  150. @火星人Ryan 目前主要的新闻发布渠道是
  151. Our main news channel is
  153. Xinxi Wang 12:00 AM
  154. 中文的翻译有时候会发布在
  155. Sometimes we will publish Chinese translations(of those news) on
  157. 徐凌超 Xu Linchao 12:01 AM
  158. 恩,不建议弄SW哦,现在莱特币又不需要扩容,感觉存在很多风险
  159. Yeah, SW not recommended from here, LTC doesn't need a size increase, it's just too risky it seems to me.
  161. Xinxi Wang 12:02 AM
  162. 莱特币开发团队并没有意思说一定要跟着Core还是Unlimited走
  163. The dev team of LTC doesn't have a general principle of either following Core or Unlimited.
  165. 火星人Ryan 12:02 AM
  166. 莱特币协议的更新不能像比特币现在这样直接放出来,包含重大更新事项的,我建议要提前组织讨论,交易所,矿池,大矿工,开发团队一起参与
  167. the updates to the protocol of LTC shouldn't be released directly like Bitcoin is doing, I suggest any major overhaul should be discussed in advance with exchanges, pools, major miners, along with the dev team.
  169. Xinxi Wang 12:04 AM
  170. 我们并不反对矿工和交易所参与开发的过程中来。只要是对莱特币未来有利的建议,我们都会采纳。
  171. We don't object to having miners and exchanges taking part in the development process, any advice that is beneficial to LTC's future, we will adopt.
  173. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 12:04 AM
  176. Xinxi Wang 12:05 AM
  177. 只是以前没有建立起来一个有效的沟通渠道。以前开发团队主要在国外,沟通起来可能不便利。
  178. It's just there wasn't an effective channel of communication in the past, the dev team members were mostly based out of channel, which may have caused the lack of communication.
  180. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 12:05 AM
  181. 现在算力差不多是这样,非常集中在中国
  182. The hashrate is mostly concentrated in China now.
  184. Xinxi Wang 12:06 AM
  185. 现在团队突然多了好几个国内的人员,相信我们以后的沟通会顺畅很多。
  186. Now with the joining of several Chinese devs, I believe the communication will become much more smooth.
  188. Xinxi Wang 12:09 AM
  189. 关于SegWit的事情,我会跟其他的几个开发人员好好商量一下。
  190. I will discuss with the rest of devs about Segwit.
  192. Xinxi Wang 12:10 AM
  193. 矿工的主要顾虑是SegWit有风险?
  194. The main worries of the miners are the risks associated with Segwit?
  196. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 12:10 AM
  197. 软分叉SW未来技术债很重,不值得搞
  198. The future technical debt of a soft-forked Segwit is heavy, it's not worth it.
  200. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 12:11 AM
  201. LTC在开发、矿池、矿工合作的情况下,完全可以采用硬分叉SW+扩容+其他新特性,比如小寒提的FlexTrans
  202. with the cooperation of devs, pools and hashers, LTC can absolutely adopt a HF SW+HF blocksize increase+other stuff, like the FlexTrans Jihan just mentioned.
  204. Xinxi Wang 12:16 AM
  205. Bitcoin Unlimited以后会上SegWit么?
  206. Is Bitcoin Unlimited going to use Segwit in the future?
  208. 小寒 Jihan Wu 12:17 AM
  209. 估计不会用软分叉,每次都干干净净硬分叉
  210. I think we will do a clean hard fork each time, rather than using soft forks.
  212. Xinxi Wang 12:18 AM
  213. 关于硬分叉,你们有办法防止出现两条链的情况?
  214. About HFs, how do you stop the 'two chains' situation.
  216. 小寒 Jihan Wu 12:18 AM
  217. 现在FlexTrans的所有规格全力和SegWit兼容
  218. Now the spec of FlexTrans will be compatible with Segwit as much as possible.
  220. 小寒 Jihan Wu 12:18 AM
  221. 矿池联合杀死
  222. The pools will unite and kill it.
  224. 小寒 Jihan Wu 12:20 AM
  225. 原链倒回去
  226. We will just roll back the original chain.
  228. 小寒 Jihan Wu 12:20 AM
  229. 写上好多天
  230. by many days.
  232. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 12:22 AM
  233. 暴力一点,谁接受小分叉币,谁就是大矿工的提款机
  234. If we choose to be brutal, whoever accepts the small hashrate fork, who will just be an ATM(implying free money) for the major miners.
  235. 温和一点,打空包+孤立所有含交易的块+驱离其它算力,谁愿意接受小分叉币,矿池无成本挖出来卖给谁
  236. If we choose to be gentle, we will just mine empty blocks and orphan all the blocks with txs and drive other hashrate out, whoever chooses to accept the minor chain coin, the pools will be able to sell to them at no mining cost.
  238. Xinxi Wang 12:23 AM
  239. 杀死小分叉本身没什么问题。我个人也不反对。
  240. I don't see any problem with killing the minor fork, and I don't oppose it personally.
  242. Xinxi Wang 12:25 AM
  243. 只是需要保证整个过程符合整个社区的利益。
  244. We just have to ensure the whole process is aligned with the interest of the whole community.
  246. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 12:25 AM
  247. 开发和矿池+矿工没矛盾的话,硬分叉能更加干净,稳定地完成技术升级,并且乜有技术债
  248. If there is no conflict between the developers and the pools/miners, hard-forking is able to deliver a technical upgrade in a cleaner stabler way, and without the technical debts.
  250. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 12:25 AM
  251. IE6这种东西太恶心了,所有网页开发都恨死IE6了
  252. IE6 sucks, and is hated by every web dev.
  254. Xinxi Wang 12:26 AM
  255. 这也算是一种有效的升级整个系统的方法。
  256. It counts as one way to effectively upgrade the whole system.
  258. Xinxi Wang 12:27 AM
  259. 开发团队的立场和矿工绝大部分时候是一致的,大家都想看到一个更好的Litecoin
  260. Most of the time, the developer team is in general agreement with the miners, everyone wants to see a better Litecoin.
  262. Xinxi Wang 12:28 AM
  263. 只要保证这个前提,什么事情都好说。
  264. Everything can be discussed under this premise.
  266. 小寒 Jihan Wu 12:30 AM
  267. 1)@Charlie Lee 是创始人,ownership很强;2)开发团队内部没有狗血争斗;3)你们还没有blockstream这种生态位公司的出现;
  268. 1) @Charlie Lee is the Founder with a great sense of ownership; (2) there is no shitfight within the dev team; 3) you don't have companies like blockstream which occupies an ecological niche yet.
  270. Xinxi Wang 12:31 AM
  271. 是的,相比比特币的开发团队,莱特币的要团结得多。
  272. Yes, compare with the development team(s) of Bitcoin, the Litecoin's is much more united.
  274. 小寒 Jihan Wu 12:31 AM
  275. 整个升级,唯一会冒出来装怪的,就是Blockstream的人。需要防范
  276. The only people who are gonna create troubles for the whole upgrading process are those from Blockstream, so we need to take cautions against them.
  278. 小寒 Jihan Wu 12:32 AM
  279. 他们可能像干涉ETC一样,来干涉LTC
  280. They may, like they did with ETC, interfere with the affairs of LTC.
  282. 小寒 Jihan Wu 12:33 AM
  283. 他们会帮助小链上市交易
  284. They will help the minor chain coin to be tradeable at the exchanges.
  286. 小寒 Jihan Wu 12:33 AM
  287. 拉算力来挖
  288. And find hashrate for it.
  290. 小寒 Jihan Wu 12:33 AM
  291. 提前做OTC交易等
  292. And (create?) OTC trades in advance.
  294. 小寒 Jihan Wu 12:33 AM
  295. 到时候,我们不会手软,直接把脸放到裤兜里,该打就打
  296. At that time, we will have no mercy, and go down and dirty[some allusions to oral sex], and beat them if we must.
  298. 小寒 Jihan Wu 12:34 AM
  299. ETC我们没有什么利益,也碍于二宝的面子,没有出手杀死小链
  300. We have no interest in ETC, and to maintain Chandler Guo's face, didn't try to kill the minor chain.
  302. 小寒 Jihan Wu 12:35 AM
  303. 如果能够合作成功
  304. If our cooperation can be successful
  306. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 12:35 AM
  307. 我这是机枪池,算力自动切,小链有人挖,我就自动切算力过去挖了覆盖掉,没人挖就不管
  308. What I have here is a multipool, with the hashrate being able to switch atuomatically, if there are miners on the minor chain, i will switch my hashrate to 51% attack it, otherwise I will just ignore it.
  310. 小寒 Jihan Wu 12:37 AM
  311. 比特大陆全力协助莱特币站稳Silver生态位
  312. Bitmain will lend all its efforts to help Litecoin to firmly establish itself at the 'ecological niche' of Silver.
  314. Xinxi Wang 12:38 AM
  315. OK,我们好好讨论一下
  316. OK, we will have a good discussion about it.
  318. 小寒 Jihan Wu 12:40 AM
  319. 同时,我们和Unlimited、Classic阵营联手,开发路线未来自主性很强,不受制于Core
  320. At the same time, in cooperation with Unlitmited and Classic, we have great self determination wrt development roadmap, and not limited by Core.
  322. 小寒 Jihan Wu 12:41 AM
  323. 相对于跟在Core后面,我们新进入的开发者,也就是xinxi介绍的同学,也将获得更大的个人价值
  324. The newly joined devs, who are xinxi's classmates, will also obtain greater personal
  326. Xinxi Wang 12:47 AM
  327. 如果说,Litecoin 0.13包含SegWit,并且开发团队有能力去掌控SegWit,你们并不反对SegWit?
  328. Say, if Litecoin 0.13 is released with Segwit, and the dev team is able to fully master the Segwit code, you wouldn't really oppose it?
  330. Xinxi Wang 12:48 AM
  331. 毕竟SegWit有很多有用的功能。
  332. Segwit has many useful features after all.
  334. Xinxi Wang 12:48 AM
  335. 我们现在对于新的feature的态度是:只要对Litecoin发展有利的,我们都会考虑。
  336. Our attitude towards new features is: we will consider anything beneficially to the development of Litecoin.
  338. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 12:52 AM
  339. 可以考虑硬分叉 Unlimited+SW
  340. We can consider a hard-forked Unlimited+SW.
  342. Xinxi Wang 12:54 AM
  343. 硬分叉和Unlimited带来的好处有哪些?又会有哪些不利的因素?
  344. What are the pros and cons of hard forking and Unlimited?
  346. Xinxi Wang 12:55 AM
  347. 除了前面提到的硬分叉可能会让代码更加简单一些之外
  348. Aside from the code simplicity aforementioned.
  350. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 12:55 AM
  351. 硬分叉能更加干净,稳定地完成技术升级,并且没有技术债。能硬分叉到SW,就没有必要软分叉
  352. Hard forking will be able to deliver a technical upgrade in a cleaner and stabler manner, and without the technical debts. If we can hard fork to SW, we don't need to consider a soft fork.
  354. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 12:55 AM
  355. 通过软分叉堆上去的技术特性越多,系统架构越脏
  356. The more technical features are acquired with soft forks, the dirtier the system's architecture will become.
  358. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 12:55 AM
  359. 从长期来看,是要崩溃的
  360. In the long term, it's going to collapse.
  362. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 12:56 AM
  363. 防微杜渐
  364. Nip it in the bud.
  366. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 12:57 AM
  367. 不利因素就是可能产生小分叉,没对小分叉进行处理+分叉本身有巨大争议(比如修改了DAO的交易数据)的话,就可能分裂出小币
  368. The bad thing about it is the possibility to create a minor fork, if the fork is not dealt with properly and the fork itself is hugely controversial(like modifying the transaction data of the DAO), it will possibly create a minor coin.
  370. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 12:59 AM
  371. 我认为硬分叉每次花精力处理掉小分叉,其长期代价低于软分叉,系统不可逆转地越来越脏,后果是可怕的。
  372. I believe the long-term cost of dedicating energy to deal with the minor forks during each hard-fork is lower than soft-forking, which will lead to the terrible consequence of the system becoming dirtier and dirtier irreversibly.
  374. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 1:00 AM
  375. 硬分叉没那么可怕,eth硬分叉了四五次,也就第一次修改区块链数据有巨大争议时,产生了小币,其余几次技术升级硬分叉,都没有再分出币来
  376. Hard forking is not that scary, eth has done it 4-5 times, other than the first one, which created a huge controversy and a minor coin as a result of trying to change the blockchain data, none of the other ones lead to a new coin.
  378. Xinxi Wang 1:01 AM
  379. 硬分叉现在的口碑不太好。虽然我个人觉得技术上是可行方案。
  380. Hard forking doesn't have a good reputation at the moment, although I personally think it's technically doable.
  382. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 1:01 AM
  383. 并不能因为有些人瞎担心,就不按正确的方式做事
  384. We shouldn't stop doing things the right way because some people are worrying for no reason.
  386. Xinxi Wang 1:02 AM
  387. 也有道理
  388. That makes sense too.
  390. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 1:02 AM
  391. 特别是完全有能力按正确的方式做事时
  392. Especially when we are fully able to do things the right way.
  394. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 1:03 AM
  395. 硬分叉技术升级个几次,就没人还会认为硬分叉=分裂出小币了,我们这是在树立案例,和五月花号一样,在开创历史。
  396. A few hard forks later nobody will still believe HF=a new coin, we are creating an precedence, like the 'May Flower', creating new history.
  398. 小寒 Jihan Wu 1:03 AM
  399. LN的开发者已经和FlexTrans建立联系
  400. LN's developers have established contacts with FlexTrans(devs).
  402. 小寒 Jihan Wu 1:03 AM
  403. LN不在乎SegWit还是LN,解决他们问题就行
  404. LN doesn't care if it's Segwit or LN(sic, should be FlexTrans), as long as it solves their problems.
  406. 小寒 Jihan Wu 1:04 AM
  407. RSK我们稍微推动一下,LTC第一时间上智能合约
  408. RSK we will make a slight push, so LTC will be the first to get smart contracts
  410. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 1:04 AM
  411. 对,LTC要有新特性,新吸引力
  412. Yes, LTC needs new features, new attractions.
  414. 小寒 Jihan Wu 1:05 AM
  415. LTC甩开Core路线,将聚集一大批盟友
  416. LTC getting rid of the Core's path, will gain it many allies.
  418. Xinxi Wang 1:05 AM
  419. RSK需要SegWit才可以
  420. RSK needs Segwit to work.
  422. 小寒 Jihan Wu 1:05 AM
  423. 呵呵,正确答案是:不需要[Smile]
  424. Hehe, the right answer is: it doesn't.
  426. 小寒 Jihan Wu 1:05 AM
  427. 我当面问Sergio了……
  428. I asked Sergio personally.....
  430. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 1:05 AM
  431. 在BTC停滞不前的情况下,LTC的前进会非常醒目
  432. With BTC development stagnated, LTC's progress will be very conspicuous.
  434. Xinxi Wang 1:06 AM
  435. @小寒 Jihan Wu 有意思,我去跟Sergio聊聊
  436. @小寒 Jihan Wu interesting, I will have a chat with Sergio.
  438. 小寒 Jihan Wu 1:06 AM
  439. Sergio多精啊,哪能压住SegWit一定通过呢……
  440. Segio is such a cunning person, how is he gonna bet everything on Segwit being deployed...
  442. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 1:06 AM
  443. 没有sw,tx可锻造性会制造一些麻烦,但并不是不能解决。21inc的闪电网络不也在没有sw的情况下推出了
  444. Without sw, there maybe some problems with tx malleability, but not unsolvable,like doesn't 21 inc release their Lightning newtork without sw?
  446. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 1:07 AM
  447. sw从某种程度上来说,是技术人员的洁癖,确实是好东西,但也不是没了就做不成事。
  448. In some senses, sw is the result of the techincal people's obsession with cleanliness, it's indeed good, but it's not something cannot be done without.
  450. 小寒 Jihan Wu 1:07 AM
  451. RSK希望可以方便地用version number升级脚本
  452. RSK hopes to be able to introduce upgrades to scripts via the version number.
  454. 小寒 Jihan Wu 1:07 AM
  455. 这个用FlexTrans也可以实现
  456. This can be done with FlexTrans.
  458. Xinxi Wang 1:10 AM
  459. OK,回头我们去研究一下。一下子信息有点多。[呲牙]
  460. OK, we will carefully research it later. It's a bit too much information.
  462. Xinxi Wang 1:12 AM
  463. 有一点是莱特币不会参与到比特币的队伍斗争中去。我们希望建立一个良好的生态圈,这也符合整个社区的利益。[微笑]
  464. One thing is Litecoin will not take part in Bitcoin's internal struggle, we hope to build a good eco-system, which is in line with the interest of the whole community.
  466. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 1:14 AM
  467. 这个肯定,我们先做事,埋头做事比吵架心情好多了
  468. For sure, we will get down to business, which is much better for moods than arguing.
  470. Xinxi Wang 1:23 AM
  471. [OK]
  473. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 1:28 AM
  474. 对用户来说,RSK比SW的吸引力和想象空间大多了,把签名数据和交易数据分开放有什么好处?不懂。智能合约?可以实现很多功能,这个我懂。不懂的看看eth也懂了
  475. For users, RSK is much more attractive and fantastic than SW, what's the benefit of separating the signature data and transaction data? Dunno. Smart contracts? Lots of things, I get it, if I don't, I will by just checking eth.
  477. ————— 2016-12-1 —————
  479. Xinxi Wang 7:57 PM
  480. 莱特币开发团队已经同意硬分叉扩容。但是鉴于莱特币现在并无扩容需求,Charlie建议把扩容放在莱特币下一次减半的时候。这样扩容对市场的扰动会比较小,并且我们也不用另外再选日子了。时间大概是2019年8月份。莱特币现在的容量是4M,加上SegWit会达到8M,硬分叉扩容之后会达到16M。
  481. The Litecoin development team has agreed to raise the blocksize with a HF. But since Litecoin has no need for a greater capacity, Charlie suggests to put it before Litecoin's next halving, so it will create less turbulence in the market, and we don't need to pick another date. It will be at about August, 2019,
  482. Litecoin's effective blocksize is 4M at the moment, with Segwit it will increase to 8M, a hard fork that doubles the capacity will make it 16M.
  484. Xinxi Wang 8:01 PM
  485. 由于莱特币本身速度已经很快,切手续费较低,所以即使闪电网络上线,由于其闪电网络自己身的一些缺点比如复杂难用,对莱特币主链的交易并不会造成实质性的影响。这点莱特币和比特币大大不同。 矿工们对于比特币上的闪电网络的担心无需加到莱特币上。况且莱特币扩容之后,就能容纳很高的交易量,更加无需担心。
  486. Because the (onchain transactions) of Litecoin is already fast enough, and the fee is quite low, so even if the LN comes online, thanks to some of its own problems such as its complexity, it will not have a tangilbe impact on the transactions on Litecoin's main chain, on this point Litecoin is different from Bitcoin.
  487. Miners' worries about LN on Bitcoin shouldn't be transferred to Litecoin. Furthermore after the blocksize increase, Litecoin will have a very large capacity, which is more reason to not to worry.
  489. Xinxi Wang 8:04 PM
  490. 关于政治:莱特币是在考虑矿工的利益的前提下,即便在并无扩容需求的情况下,答应硬分叉扩容。所以莱特币团队是诚心愿意跟矿工们合作,而不是走向分歧。这点莱特币团队跟比特币Core是完全不一样的。
  491. About the politics: Litecoin agrees to a blocksize increase via a hard fork, after taking full considerations of the miners' interests, even when there is no necessity for such a increase. Therefore the development team of Litecoin
  492. 's willingness to cooperate with the miners, and to avoid differences is sincere, this is where the Litecoin team is completely different from Bitcoin Core.
  494. Xinxi Wang 8:05 PM
  495. 这个是莱特币开发团队内部达成的意见,希望矿工这边不要外传。
  496. This is the opinion formed by the Litecoin team internally, we hope the miners don't publish it.
  498. Xinxi Wang 8:06 PM
  499. 我们希望大家都一起看到莱特币的长期的发展,互助合作。
  500. We hope everyone can see the long-term development of Litecoin, and collaborate.
  502. Xinxi Wang 8:08 PM
  503. 希望能够抓住现在这个非常好的时机,高效地合作并让莱特币能够起死复生,重震雄风。
  504. I hope we can take this great opportunity to cooperate effectively and revive Litecoin to its status.
  506. ————— 2016-12-2 —————
  508. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 12:32 AM
  509. 我们在软分叉SW上会付出远比你们想象得大的代价,我们是一体的,所以开发最终也会体会到这个代价有多大。
  510. On the issue of SW soft-fork, we will pay a far greater cost than you can imagine, we are in this together, so (you) developers will feel how great it is eventually.
  512. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 12:33 AM
  513. 建议我们放弃软分叉SW这条不通之路,共同寻求对双方代价最小的方向。
  514. I suggest we abandon the road of no return that is the SW soft-fork, and try to seek the direction which minimizes both of our costs.
  516. Xinxi Wang 12:38 AM
  517. @江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 我还是不太理解为什么一定要硬分叉来激活SW。软分叉可以在风险小很多的情况下做同样的事情。
  518. I still don't understand why SW must be activated with a hard fork. Soft fork can accomplish the same under much smaller risks.
  520. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 12:43 AM
  521. 我们在软分叉SW上会付出远比你们想象得大的代价,这个代价你说了不算,我说了也不算
  522. On the issue of SW soft-fork, we will pay a far greater cost than you can imagine, the cost is not up to you or me to decide.
  524. Xinxi Wang 12:44 AM
  525. 请明说
  526. Please be specific.
  528. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 12:45 AM
  529. 这对BTC的软分叉SW激活会产生直接影响,非常明显的示范效应。我们也无法向社区解释,为什么在BTC上反对软分叉SW,而在LTC上支持软分叉SW。这会让我们失去最重要的师出有名。
  530. This is going to have a direct impact on Bitcoin's adoption of Segwit soft-fork. Very clear precedence, we cannot explain to the community, why do we oppose a SW soft-fork on BTC, but support a SW soft-fork on LTC, our war would be without a just cause.
  532. Xinxi Wang 12:45 AM
  533. 关于政治:莱特币是在考虑矿工的利益的前提下,即便在并无扩容需求的情况下,答应硬分叉扩容。所以莱特币团队是诚心愿意跟矿工们合作,而不是走向分歧。这点莱特币团队跟比特币Core是完全不一样的。
  534. About the politics: Litecoin agrees to a blocksize increase via a hard fork, after taking full considerations of the miners' interests, even when there is no necessity for such a increase. Therefore the development team of Litecoin's willingness to cooperate with the miners, and to avoid differences is sincere, this is where the Litecoin team is completely different from Bitcoin Core.
  536. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 12:45 AM
  537. 你觉得可以解释,但你说了不算,我说了也不算
  538. You think you can explain this, but it's not up to you or me.
  540. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 12:46 AM
  541. “即便在并无扩容需求的情况下,答应硬分叉扩容”这个代价很小,而我们支持LTC软分叉SW的代价很大
  542. "agreeing to a blocksize increase via a hard fork, even when there is no necessity for one", this is a small cost for you, our cost of supporting a LTC SW soft-fork is much bigger.
  544. Xinxi Wang 12:47 AM
  545. 这个代价也不算很小。开发团队一般情况下是不会加入没有必要的改动。外界肯定会质疑,我和Charlie先前还在商量怎么跟外面的人说。
  546. This is not a small cost either, normally the dev team will not introduce unnecessar changes, it will attract skepticisms, I was discussing with Charlie how should we explain this to the outsiders previously.
  548. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 12:48 AM
  549. 如果软分叉SW激活,那就意味着Core路线图的最终胜出,和扩容派的彻底失败。这不仅仅是一个软硬分叉SW之争,而是后面双方路线图之争
  550. If the SW soft-fork is activated, it means that the roadmap of Core's eventual victory, and the complete defeat of the big block camp. This is not about SF SW or HF SW, this is about the roadmaps behind them.
  552. Xinxi Wang 12:48 AM
  553. 即便你认为很小的代价,比特币Core却做不到
  554. What you consider to be a small cost, Bitcoin Core is unwilling to afford.
  556. Xinxi Wang 12:49 AM
  557. 这点,足以给外界一个足够的理由让你们区分对待比特币Core和LTC开发团队
  558. This would be enough reason for other people to expect you to treat Bitcoin Core and the Litecoin dev team differently.
  560. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 12:49 AM
  561. 比起阻止Core软分叉SW,我愿意付出的代价来说,你说的这个代价真的很小
  562. Your cost, compare to what I am willing to afford to stop Core's SW soft-fork, is really small.
  564. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 12:50 AM
  565. 区分对待开发团队不重要,为什么在BTC上反对软分叉SW,而在LTC上支持,非常重要
  566. It's not important that we differentiate between the dev teams, why do we oppose a SW SF on BTC, while supporting one on LTC? This is important.
  568. Xinxi Wang 1:01 AM
  569. 要立马硬分叉上SegWit这种事情,虽然说你们有经验可以杀死小链条,但是对于莱特币这种超大算力的链,你们并没有十足把握。并且硬分叉上SegWit这件事情,道义上来讲也通不过。到时候真要比起来,还不知道谁胜谁负。所有的莱特币开发人员都是志愿者,包括Charlie自己也是。要真分成两条链了,我们不想去背这个黑锅,背不起这个黑锅。
  570. Things like a SW HF immediately, although you have experience with killing minor forks, but for chains like LTC which has a huge hashrate, you don't have 100% assurance.A HF-SW is morally questionable as well, we wouldn't know which chain will win once it happens. All LTC devs are volunteers, including Charlie. If it really splits into two chains, we don't want to be the scapegoat, we
  572. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 1:03 AM
  573. 可以硬分叉 SegWit+大区块+rockstock,这个有足够理由和说服力了。
  574. You can get a Segwit HF+big block+rootstock, this is enough reason and convincing.
  576. Xinxi Wang 1:03 AM
  577. 这个也远远不够
  578. Far from enough.
  580. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 1:04 AM
  581. 再加上我们掌握的算力,那就够了
  582. Would be enough with the hashrate under our control.
  584. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 1:05 AM
  585. eth的4次技术升级硬分叉,都没有导致分裂,只有第一次修改交易数据的硬分叉分裂了
  586. Eth hard-forked 4 times to do techincal upgrades, none of them lead to a split other than the one changing the transaction data.
  588. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 1:05 AM
  589. 一个单纯的技术升级,并且是 SegWit+大区块+rockstock 这样明显能看到好处的技术升级,我想不出有什么理由会分裂。
  590. A pure technical upgrade, not to say one technical upgrade including Segwit+big block+rootstock with obvious benefits, i can't think of a reason to split.
  592. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 1:07 AM
  593. 竞争币硬分叉司空见惯,分成两个币的屈指可数
  594. Competing coins hard forked a lot, those that really splited into two coins can be counted with one hand.
  596. Xinxi Wang 1:07 AM
  597. 要说单纯的技术,软分叉可以达到同样的效果,风险要低很多。外界肯定会问,为啥开发团队要听你的采用危险的硬分叉。
  598. Purely technically, SF can accomplish the same with much lower risks. The outside world will ask, why the dev team has to choose the risky HF under your advice.
  600. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 1:08 AM
  601. 1、软分叉会差一些
  602. 2、既然最后要扩容硬分叉,总要面对硬分叉风险,那为何不把筹码一次性用上? SegWit+大区块+rockstock 硬分叉,这个筹码已经非常足够了
  603. 1.Soft fork is a bit worse
  604. 2.Since you will need to do a HF eventually, you will have to take these risks sooner or later, why not just put all your chips in the pot. Segwit+big block+rootstock, that's a huge one, should be enough.
  606. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 1:08 AM
  607. 支持原链的毫无理由
  608. there is simply no reason for anyone to support the original chain.
  610. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 1:11 AM
  611. 现在有了资源,付出一定时间开发 SegWit+大区块 硬分叉,最好加上rockstock,付出的代价是很小的。并且对外也可以说明,我们准备 SegWit+大区块+rockstock 硬分叉,所以不发布目前的版本
  612. Now we have the resource, and spend some time to develop Segwit+big block, better with rootstock, it's a small cost. And we can explain to others, that we are preparing for Segwit+big block+rootstock, so we don't release the current version.
  614. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 1:11 AM
  615. 有了这些新特性,社区也会欢欣鼓舞的
  616. And the community would be happy with all these new features.
  618. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 1:13 AM
  619. 这条路很明显对双方都是走得通的,而软分叉SW的话,我们都会付出沉重的代价,远比你现在能想象的沉重
  620. This is obviously a path that will lead both of us to somewhere, and we will both pay a hefty cost for a SW SF, more than you can imagine now.
  622. Xinxi Wang 1:13 AM
  623. 你说的SegWit+大区块+rootstock放在比特币社区里面,也许很多人都会欢欣鼓舞。莱特币暂时并不需要大区块。其他两个软分叉就可以轻松解决。硬要立马上硬分叉,恐怕莱特币社区绝大部分人都不会支持。
  624. The same will happen if you push for Segwit+big block+rootstock in the Bitcoin community, many people will be happy as well. Litecoin doesn't need big blocks, the other two can be deployed easily with soft forks, if you forcibly push for a HF, most people
  625. in the Litecoin community would probably not support it.
  627. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 1:15 AM
  628. 但软分叉SW,我们这会付出沉重的代价,这个问题是绕不开的,也是你无法通过口头说服的
  629. But we will pay a hefty cost for a SW soft-fork, you just can't get around it, and you can't convince me.
  631. Xinxi Wang 1:15 AM
  632. 你非要硬逼着开发团队采用硬分叉来搞定这个事情,恐怕我们很难答应。
  633. If you want to press us into using a hard fork for this, I am afraid it would be very difficult for us to accept.
  635. Xinxi Wang 1:16 AM
  636. 我们从经济、政治利益方面都帮你们考虑过了。
  637. We have considered for you both economically and politically.
  639. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 1:16 AM
  640. 这个事情你对我们是没法口头说服的,所以会叫“博弈论”,而不是“辩论”
  641. You can't convince us with words on this issue, that's why it's called "game theory", instead of "debate theory".
  643. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 1:18 AM
  644. 讨论只是让大家都明白别人的立场,别人的利益,别人的底线,别人愿意付出的代价
  645. A discussion is just to let everyone know where others stand, where others' interests are , where are others' bottomlines, and what everyone is and how much others are willing to pay.
  647. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 1:24 AM
  648. “要开发团队采用硬分叉来SegWit+大区块+rootstock”
  649. A HF Segwit+big block+rootstock
  650. 这个开发工作量是可控的,
  651. this is a manageable workload
  652. 在LTC比BTC相对中心化的情况下,在明显有好处的技术升级下,反对力量是可控的。
  653. with LTC being more centralized than BTC, the opposition is manageable when the upgrade provides clear technical benefits
  655. Xinxi Wang 1:26 AM
  656. 目前立马硬分叉对于莱特币来讲违背了整个莱特币社区的意见。反对力量可控这个还真不好说。
  657. An immediate HF is against the will of the entire Litecoin community, it's hard to say whether the opposition is manageable.
  659. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 1:27 AM
  660. 在开发+矿池不反对的情况下,技术升级的硬分叉没有什么可怕的,eth都第4次技术升级硬分叉了
  661. without the opposition of the devs and the pools, a technical HF is nothing to be afraid of, eth has done it 4 times.
  663. Xinxi Wang 1:29 AM
  664. 首先eth采用硬分叉有它自己的原因,我不知道你有没有做过研究。
  665. eth had its own reasons for using a HF, i don't know if you have reserached it.
  667. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 1:29 AM
  668. 我知道,eth是技术缺陷,必须硬分叉修复不可
  669. I know, eth had technical flaws that need to be repaired with HFs.
  671. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 1:30 AM
  672. 其实硬要软分叉修复也可以,就像DAO那次,一开始方案也是软分叉,最后发现漏洞,才转硬分叉
  673. Actually repairing with a SF could work, like that time with the DAO, the HF solution was adopted only after the SF one was found to be exploitable.
  675. Xinxi Wang 1:30 AM
  676. 所以eth分叉分他们的,对我们来说其实并没有借鉴作用。
  677. So we cannot learn much that is useful from eth fork.
  679. Xinxi Wang 1:30 AM
  680. 莱特币要真的到非硬分叉不可的时候,整个社区会同意硬分叉的
  681. The whole community will agree to do a HF when it is absolutely necessary.
  683. Xinxi Wang 1:31 AM
  684. 我还是建议你跳出你自己的圈子,考虑一下整个社区。
  685. I suggest you think outside of your box, and from the perspective of the entire community.
  687. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 1:32 AM
  688. 不需要非硬分叉不可的时候,只要硬分叉能带来明显的好处+分裂危险可控,社区不会反对硬分叉的。
  689. we don't need to wait until a HF is absolutely necessary, as long it brings obvious benefits and the risks are manageable, the community wouldn't oppose it.
  691. Xinxi Wang 1:33 AM
  692. 你觉得社区会有多少人会相信你可以控制一场并没有必要的硬分叉?
  693. How many people in the community do you think will believe you can manage a unnecessary HF.
  695. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 1:33 AM
  696. 而“分裂危险可控”又依赖于“能带来明显的好处”
  697. 'manageable risks' rely on the 'obvious benefits'.
  699. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 1:33 AM
  700. 有好处就有必要
  701. Benefits give rise to necessity.
  703. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 1:34 AM
  704. 硬分叉到大区块才是没有必要,硬分叉到 SegWit+大区块+rootstock 有好处有必要
  705. A HF to big blocks only is unnecessary, A HF to Segwit+big block+rootstock is both beneficial and necessary.
  707. Xinxi Wang 1:35 AM
  708. 我得睡觉去了
  709. I will have to go to sleep now.
  711. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 1:36 AM
  712. 嗯,我也找Charlie Lee聊聊吧
  713. Right, I will speak to Charlie Lee later.
  715. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 2:13 AM
  716. 另外说一下关于杀死小分叉的情况,减少你的担心。
  717. I will talk a bit about killing minor forks to lessen your worries.
  718. 1、硬分叉我建议实际等待95%以上算力占比才实施(但不是在代码中写死95%激活)。
  719. 1 I suggest a HF will only be activated after 95% of the hashrate signals for it(but it won't be fixed that way in the code)
  720. 2、硬分叉后,如果有上小币的交易所,那按eth和etc的经验,两种币价格会维持在一个比较悬殊的比例,比如1:10。LTC和BTC一样是2016块调整难度(而不是像eth一样逐块调整难度),所以在这个难度周期调整结束前,矿工挖两种币的产量是一样的,但价格是1:10,所以理性矿工必然会选择挖价格高的大币,不会出现还有一部分矿工挖旧链。
  721. 2. After the hard fork, exchanges may want to add the minor coin, which according to the experience with eth and etc, the prices will be maintained at a great disparity, like 1:10. LTC, like BTC, and unlike ETH, adjusts its difficulty every 2016 blocks, so before the current difficulty period ends, the rewards for equivalent hashrate are the same, but the price ratio is 1:10,
  722. so a rational miner would go for the higher priced coin, there wouldn't be anyone mining the old chain.
  723. 3、如果有投机分子想炒作小币,并亏本挖矿,我作为机枪池,可以秒切算力对小分叉进行51%空块挖矿(不承认任何包括交易的块,并在挖出块中不打包任何交易)。有人挖时,我秒切过去挖,孤立他的块,没人挖时,我挖新链。从而确保长期,彻底杀死旧链。
  724. If there are speculators looking to pump the minor coin, and mine at a loss, my multipool could switch to mine empty blocks with >51% hashrate, so I will orphan anyone who also mines the chain, and when no one mines the old chain, I would mine the new chain, which effectively ensures the total death of the old chain.
  726. Xinxi Wang 8:40 AM
  727. 要保重绝大部分算力占比,那就得把时间往后推移很多比如1、2年时间。那就不是立即硬分叉了。
  728. If you want to ensure the majority of hashrate agrees, the fork should be postponed for 1-2 years, it wouldn't be an immediate hard fork.
  730. Xinxi Wang 8:41 AM
  731. 我们准备扩容用这种方法。但是我们希望SegWit能早日激活,这对莱特币发展非常有利。
  732. We are preparing to raise the block size in this manner, but we hope to activate Segwit earlier, which is beneficial to LTC's development.
  734. Xinxi Wang 8:41 AM
  735. 你还是去跟Charlie Lee谈谈吧。
  736. So you better speak to Charlie Lee.
  738. 江卓尔 Jiang Zhuo'er 1:30 PM
  739. 弹性交易你们评估过吗?
  740. Have you evaluated FlexTrans?
  742. 小寒 Jihan Wu 3:41 PM
  743. 弹性交易需要再等等
  744. FlexTrans have to wait a while.
  746. 小寒 Jihan Wu 3:41 PM
  747. 12月中旬会有alpha
  748. Alpha will be released in the middle of Dec.
  750. 小寒 Jihan Wu 3:41 PM
  751. 之后还需要反复测试和修复bug
  752. Tests and bugfixes to follow.
  754. 小寒 Jihan Wu 3:42 PM
  755. 我倾向于等等FlexTrans
  756. I tend to give FlexTrans more time.
  758. 小寒 Jihan Wu 3:42 PM
  759. 交易延展性问题对于密码学货币功能的正常发挥影响很小
  760. Tx malleability is a small problem for cryptocurrencies to function normally.
  762. 小寒 Jihan Wu 3:42 PM
  763. 不是紧急的问题
  764. it's not urgent.
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