American centrist exemplars

Donco
TRUMP: "We're going to walk down to the Capitol and we're going to cheer on our brave senators and congressmen and women, and we're probably not going to be cheering so much for some of them... because you will never take back our country by weakness. You have to show strength and you have to be strong." GIULIANI: "if we are right, a lot of them will go to jail. So, let's have trial by combat!"
Dorcas
RCastle: i think it's some kind of hypnotism
innit
Trump is a evil human being.
innit
All the Christians who support Trump hate God.
Dorcas
they are beginning to turn their backs now, which is why the 25th ammendment can't possibly work
innit
Why can't it work?
innit
He's unfit to be president. Therefore, he should be blocked from being president immediately.
innit
The goal is not to appease Trump supporters in any way. They're the enemy of America.
13:59 innit
The goal is to 'do the right thing'.
innit
It's been interesting to see so many Americans surrender to terrorism.
14:00 t1resias
innit: Surrender?
t1resias
A majority of republicans SUPPORT it.
innit
t1resias: Obviously all of those people are involved and should be crushed by our republic.
innit
Expulsion from Congress. Life prison sentences.
innit
I'm talking about the next 1/3 of Americans -- the centrists/liberals who can't surrender fast enough.
innit
Those who want "unity". Those who don't want to further enrage Trump terrorists. Those who want to wait to inauguration.
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innit
Joe Biden, for example, can't stop saying "unity". He is brainwashed.
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innit
t1resias: Imagine you are in family counseling. The counselor asks you what you wish to happen with your family. You say, "I'd like us to be unified -- to be a family."
14:03 innit
This is reasonable. This is non-delusional. This is the statement of a goal, norm, dream, or ideal.
innit
The counselor continues, "I notice your 1/2 your family isn't here. What's going on with that?"
innit
The father prevaricates, "Oh, I dunno, they have different views. But we need to be unified."
innit
The counselor continues, "Isn't it true they're currently organizing a pipe bomb attacks against you to murder you as you leave this office and have stated over 17000 times in the last four months that they 'hate our father -- no unity!!'?"
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innit
If, in this moment, you respond with something like, "I just want us to be unified", then you are delusional and in the middle of a psychiatric event.
innit
You cannot cope with actual realty and you're just stating over and over again the reality you wish you were in.
innit
The counselor, recognizing you're in a psychiatric event, will now modify their questioning so it is commensurate with their perception of your ability to handle reality.
innit
About 1/3 of the country is in the above state.
ripglk
innit, what do you suggest we do with the other half of the family?
innit
Joe Biden is in that state.
innit
ripglk: Insurrection must be crushed, when it is unjustified.
innit
It must be supported when it is justified (we wouldn't call it insurrection in that case).
innit
In this case, it is based of white supremacy and lies, and so must be crushed.
innit
All members of the GOP in Congress who expressed support for this insurrection must be removed from Congress.
innit
Trump must be removed from office, barred from holding office again, arrested, and eventually imprisoned for the rest of his life.
innit
All individuals who entered the Capitol Building must be charged with felony murder, as their conspiracy resulted in a murder.
innit
This is much of the acute response.
innit
The broad response will involve holding various media companies responsible for their contributions to this civil war.
innit
ripglk: Did you see the video of Ashli Babbitt being killed by security as she tried to enter the speaker's lobby?
innit
After that, nobody attempted to enter that location.
innit
Delusional beings need to have boundaries communicated to them and then enforced.
Donco
They were like... "Why are they shooting as us patriots???"
innit
They're too delusional to understand the correct values of America, but they are not too delusional to understand they dislike dying.
innit
Donco: I really support the killing of Ashli Babbitt.
innit
That was a clean kill.
Donco
One man's patriot is another's terrorist
innit
Bravo to the officer for defending our republic.
Donco
It was tragic but necessary. That was the last line of defense to the congresspersons.
innit
In what way was it tragic?
innit
She radicalized herself over years as part of a death cult led by the president to overthrow our republic and murder millions of people.
innit
Why is her death, in the middle of terrorism, tragic?
ripglk
people don't do that to themselves
innit
ripglk: You have to intervene in the lives of people like Ashli Babbitt.
innit
The best place to intervene is to prevent right-wing media ecosystem from publishing lies.
Donco
it was tragic that it came to someone being killed.
innit
I would modify the 1st Amendment to make illegal any speech which is false.
innit
Donco: Was it tragic when we shot Nazi soldiers?
ripglk
herp derp
innit
Do you see footage of Nazis getting crushed and your first thought is, "Boy, that is real tragic."
innit
I don't.
Donco
innit yes, It was tragic that Nazis bought in the Hitler's insanity
innit
I think, "It's critically important that people who wish to harm and dominate others are shown consequences. I am really glad these Nazis are receiving consequences and dying, because if they weren't, then innocent people would be dying instead. What I am currently watching is justice."
innit
That's how I respond.
ripglk
when a significant portion of citizens start picking up some violent nationalist ideology, it's not the citizens who are the problem
innit
Donco: Do you support powerful government that intervenes aggressively in the lives of individuals very early in their radicalization to stop the tragedy before it comes to gunfire?
ripglk
a successful civilization educates its citizens so they can make informed decisions
Donco
innit I'm not sure that the governmmnet has that power.
14:14 MissBliss
This sounds suspiciously authoritarian in argument; a cold justification for mass incarceration and murder for those that disagree with you. It sounds suspiciously, to my eyes and ears, as blaming the victims of being radicalized, as opposed to other elements. You openly advocate for the death and imprisonment of those you disagree with, which is morally reprehensible.
ripglk
when a civilization actively prevents its citizens from being informed, you can't blame the citizens for falling for conmen
innit
ripglk: We are currently in a poorly educated state because right-wing forces and their capitalist allies systematically destroyed the critical thinking ability of tens of millions of people over the last few decades as part of their long-term plot to overthrow the republic.
ripglk
yea
ripglk
and citizens blaming other citizens is exactly what they want
innit
Donco: What mechanisms are available to stop tragedies like killing Nazis before they join the Nazi party, in your theory of government, then?
innit
ripglk: So, you support filing felony charges against key media and business leaders in our nation, then?
innit
Those that are the leaders of this mass radicalization movement?
innit
I support that.
Donco
innit the people need to stop the Trumps and the Hitlers of the world from getting elected in the first place.
ripglk
maybe
innit
MissBliss: The primary job of republican government, per Madison in Federalist 10, is to control factionalism.
MissBliss
Your argument sounds suspiciously close, to my eyes and ears, that you believe Republicans should be shot or incarcerated.
ripglk
my first priority would be education reform
innit
Controlling factionalism is in part having lots of liberty that allows people to express themselves as individuals, form groups with like-minded individuals, while on the other part using rule of law to completely smash invalid factionalism.
Dorcas
1984
ripglk
making critical thinking central to every cirriculum
ripglk
critical thinking and empiricism
innit
Donco: Trump was elected in 2016. Was that the death of the republic, then?
14:18 innit
ripglk: How long will education reform need to take effect? I estimate 20-30 years.
innit
Does the American republic, in its current status, have 20-30 years of wait time?
innit
Recall, human civilization needs to get to zero carbon emissions in eight years to prevent catastrophic climate change.
ripglk
don't know, but it's the root of the problem
innit
We do not have 20-30 years, ripglk.
innit
20-30 > 8.
ripglk
climate is already fucked
innit
ripglk: I can tell you what you're doing.
ripglk
oops
ripglk
SORRY
innit
ripglk: You were raised in the American republic, yes?
ripglk
climate is already, um
innit
Also, are you 'white'?
ripglk
i don't think there's another suitable word tbh
ripglk
climate is already seriously effed up to the max
innit
If you're 'white' in the American republic, then you were raised in a portion of the political spectrum when there is high stability.
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innit
In this portion of the spectrum, unity and shallow republicanism, love of diversity, tolerance, etc. are the key values -- they maintain stability.
ripglk
please explain? [14:19] <+innit> ripglk: I can tell you what you're doing.
innit
'White' Americans have very little historical, cultural, and political experience with the full spectrum of human political variation.
innit
You were raised with no insight into what to do when your stable republic becomes instable.
innit
None of our schoolteachers or parents taught us anything about that.
MissBliss
ripglk: It sounds like they are attempting to assert that they can define who you are, as a person.
innit
And so when we enter into a very different phase of human political variation, we bleat about 'unity' and 'free speech' and 'tragedy'.
innit
MissBliss: You won't be answering my question, then?
ripglk
did i bleat those things?
innit
ripglk: You are bleating about education reform without taking into consideration human climate change.
innit
Even though climate change will lead to fascist governments worldwide in war over natural resources.
innit
And there is a ticking clock of ~8 years.
innit
This is what a 'white' American who grew up in a stable republic would say.
innit
It's what the father in the counselor's office says when his family is planting bombs under his car.
innit
"I just want to reform education, man -- that's the ticket."
innit
ripglk: I am a philosopher, clearly, and deeply inspired by Buddhism. Clearly, mental qualities are the most important aspect of good civilization. The fundamental human problem is the gap between human wisdom and human power.
ripglk
and "bleating" about the attack on capitol hill will fix climate change faster?
innit
ripglk: You think bleating -- a human word for a sheep utterance -- is commensurate with my calling for the arrest of most of the top American leadership?
innit
That's a real sheep move, in your eyes.
ripglk
you're the one who...... nevermind
innit
My advocating modifying the 1st Amendment to prevent powerful people from spreading lies and holding business and media leaders accountable, that's a sheep move.
innit
ripglk: I am attempting to respond 'correctly' to the actual facts of our situation.
innit
That's hard to do.
innit
Repeating norms I learned in 4th grade ain't it, though.
innit
Empowering the government too much is dangerous.
innit
Empowering the government too little is dangerous.
innit
ripglk: The climate is already in a horrendous state. Correct.
innit
It can be more horrendous.
innit
We are on track to make it more horrendous so that *several billion humans die by 2100*.
ripglk
little late RCastle
innit
Now, if a person values all lives equally, greater interventions are justified to try and mitigate those billions of deaths, yes?
innit
ripglk: Are you done?
innit
A lot of Americans have such 'love of country' that they get exhausted about talking about defending their republic after a few minutes.
innit
It's hard work.
innit
The deaths of climate change will predominantly be people who didn't cause climate change.
innit
Therefore, we can invoke notions of defensive violence on their behalf.
innit
Notions of defensive violence empower us for possibly very powerful interventions.
innit
Like destroying who systems of government.
innit
whole*
ripglk
after that last comment, i figured out that you were just looking for "gotcha" technicalities and the discussion stopped being interesting
innit
Yeah, I come across as real insincere.
innit
You got me.
innit
I'm not intellectually or morally invested in these topics at all. That much is obvious.
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innit
For the record, MissBliss presented no mechanisms by which to improve the current status of the American republic.
14:32 innit
For the record, Donco presented no mechanisms by which to improve the current status of the American republic, but hinted it's not empowered to do much before tragic shootings occur.
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innit
For the record, ripglk presented the mechanism of education reform, which I estimated would take 20-30 years, but we only have 8 years or less to massively address climate change. They responded with a fatalistic, 'climate is done anyways'.
innit
These are your centrist American champions.
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innit
MissBliss, though, normative exemplar, conflated my praise of capitol security forces -- empowered by the republic to use lethal force to protect our representatives in our representative democracy from fascists mobs -- using lethal force to protect our representatives in our representative democracy from a fascist mob with 'killing all Republicans'.
14:35 innit
She's pretty sure, two days after the floor of the Congress was occupied by fascists, that this one chatter on IRC responding to that event is the *real problem*.