Thursday, May 17, 2018
pf: the people in this game are truly awful
נויז: RANDOS
pf: meepo doesn't know how to play meepo
pf: cw keeps initiating on disruptor
pf: bloodseeker keeps murdering 2 people who try to go on him
pf: lmao peruvianos
pf: did u see imperator rome
נויז: YE
pf: also why are you awake
pf: what a stupid name
נויז: dota finals
נויז: stop being so judgemental
נויז: it ruins ur skin
pf: its just a bad name m8
נויז: https://boards.4chan.org/pol/thread/172290600/this-guy-killed-himself-and-the-left-is-doing
pf: just imperator would be better
נויז: also pf why did you kys
נויז: we gunna imperator -> ck2 -> eu4 -> ciky ->HoI
pf: video games haven't really been fun with acd lately
נויז: dota brings out the best in people
pf: got mad at a thing and stayed away for a month and it's been ok
נויז: yeah idk people make fun of me going off to play single player games for a week
נויז: but tbh it's usually fine
pf: i'm still mad about thing and video games aren't fun enough anymore to make me stop being mad about thing to get on
נויז: then again: i enjoy games that aren't multiplayer
נויז: ur p autistic
pf: yes
נויז: i can't really imagine caring about admin
pf: that doesn't make me not mad about thing
נויז: just exist
pf: it's more mad at the reasoning behind it
pf: that ab needs to have the ability to moderate me
נויז: no
נויז: that isnt it
נויז: the logic was originally that you admin abuse semifreuqently
נויז: frequently
pf: when was the last time i had admon
נויז: and now you've made it a sticking point
נויז: in the mumble?
pf: in mumble was 4 years ago
נויז: i can recall 5 seperate ocasions of you getting your admin taken away
נויז: or privs
pf: and i got admin taken away for banning you and forgetting about it overnight
נויז: one of the two
pf: that was the last time i had full admin on mumble
pf: anethema gave me admin in discord to set a thing up and then took it away
נויז: or movewars
נויז: b/c the point is having as few admins as possible
pf: i was the one being moved to fags constantly when the thing i got mad about happened
pf: like i was actually getting admin abused
pf: and then got my privs taken away
נויז: that happens to e v e r y o n e
נויז: that isn't what happened
pf: here is what happened
pf: 100% my honest recollection
נויז: if we're recalling the same incident
pf: i got on on a saturday afternoon
pf: nimoy and stia were playing poe
נויז: i have never doubted the honesty of your recollections
pf: danger and ab and maybe jshaw were in the chan and hadn't miced up in about a half hour
pf: so i moved the people playing the game half of acd plays into another chan and the people who were by all appearances afk into fags
pf: the people playing poe came back or were moved back
pf: so i moved them into another chan 1 more time
pf: that was all the moving i did
pf: none of those things were particularly out of line i think
pf: then somebody keeps moving me to fags every time i mic up
נויז: are we recalling mumble or discord
pf: discord
נויז: oh
נויז: you havent done anything in discord
pf: i probably started raging out and moving people
נויז: that's not why we're reticent to grant admin
pf: so danger takes away my move privs
pf: so i start typing out screeds in the chat
נויז: all of the relevant incidents i can recall are from mumble
pf: ab starts deleting my lines faster i can type
pf: so i start spamming like an autistic retard
נויז: i can picture it in my head
נויז: like a micheal bay movie
pf: privs to message the chan get taken away
pf: i get mad
pf: am still mad
pf: i'm upset that any time there is a conflict between me and ab it ends up with me losing privs
pf: and has been this way for years
pf: i don't really appreciate being treated like a child and the fact that the apparent majority of the group thinks it's necessary makes me not want to come back
נויז: so wecan actually clarify this a bit
pf: every argument for ab having admin and me not is based on hypotheticals that haven't happened in acd for years
נויז: it's not so much that we think you're a child, but we are legit trying to restrict admin privs on a legit need-to-have
pf: i feel like i'm not taken seriously ever
pf: it's very difficult to get people into games
נויז: well, you're often not taken seriously in X game b/c you happen not to be good at it
pf: people dont' listen to me at all when they do play with me
נויז: that's the cold, god's hoenst truth
נויז: you have to be hotwire to get taken seriously in cs: go
pf: which is such a nonsense reason
נויז: you have to be danger or ab or me to get taken seriously in dota
pf: lack of mechanical skill doesn't mean i can't think critically about the game
נויז: that may be true
pf: and i am as good as you or danger or ab in dota
pf: synch is significantly better than all of us and he takes me seriously when we play together
נויז: you are not as good as danger at carry
pf: and i do well and we do well and fun is had by all
pf: that's wrong
pf: i firmly believe i'm a better carry than danger
נויז: you're playing at a 2.5k level when you 2q with him
נויז: you are delusional
נויז: i'm sorry
נויז: ab is a better offlane than me
נויז: danger is a better carry than me
נויז: he is better than you too
נויז: there's no shame in having a realsitic skill assessment
pf: this is kind of part of my point here
נויז: i do the same with stia
pf: you are like 1/3 of the problem i have btw
נויז: when we 2q
נויז: understandable
pf: every time we disagree "no you're wrong"
pf: and that's the end of the discussion
נויז: im not very empathetic
נויז: well, i try to reduce our disagreements down to their most basic levels
נויז: but when im not trying very hard to be understandable, i cand efinitely seem dismissive
נויז: i'd apologize for that, but it's likely to continue
נויז: if you remind me of that, i will try to explain further
pf: and i'm kind of fine with it on an interpersonal level
pf: i can deal with it enough
pf: but when it's combined with a *formalized* method of treating me like i'm a lesser member of the group
pf: it's really irritating
נויז: so: i think i tried earlier but got sidetracked
נויז: lemme write a blog real quick
נויז: just to get it out there
נויז: re: Discord privs; We're legit trying to restrict them as much as possible, because in the grand "everyone has them" vs. "no one has them" poles, everyone having them has proven time and time again to generate a mess. So, we're trying to keep them restricted. Ideally, only anethema would be admin. The problem is that he's not around enough for this to be viable, so ab, who is around frequently, gets them. I cannot speak to your personal experience or beliefs, but ab has a less marked history of "admin abuse" b/c he doesnt get in move fights with tubes or autistically rage out and do anything. This group recollection is shared by the majority of ACD, so he gets to hold the bag. Danger, to date, got them b/c he was adding emojis and then anethema forgot to take them away -- because Danger never used them at all. 1/2
נויז: So, we arrive at a point wherein this conflict emerges.
pf: "ab has a less marked history"
pf: except with me
נויז: That might be true.
pf: which is my specific problem
pf: i don't have a marked history with admin abuse
pf: because i haven't had admin for literally years
נויז: You had admin in mumble.
pf: the reason people think i admin abuse is because of shit that happened in 2014
נויז: Don't you rememeber the whole admin de-admin shit
pf: i don't even want admin
pf: i want the ability for ab or danger to take away my privs to be gone
נויז: Well, this gets to the Big Point
pf: privs meaning moving people and typing in the fucking channel
נויז: Now, you've turned this whole argument into an ultimatum.
pf: i haven't at all
נויז: Well, yes.
pf: you're misstating my points
נויז: No, you said "I'm not using this while X is true."
pf: and i'm specifying what my problems are
נויז: That is, by nature, an ultimatum.
pf: if you want to frame it that way that's unfortunate
pf: there's more nuance to what i'm saying and you're being reductionist
נויז: So, the point that's at the head of the argument now is whether we cave to the demand because you're you, or because it's justified.
pf: i don't really want to come back to discord the way things currently stand
נויז: And what way is that?
pf: if they changed i would probably get back in discord
נויז: If you start literally spamming the chanel, someone can make you stop?
pf: but i'm tired of being treated the way i am and i won't really be around a lot in any case unless that would change
נויז: And you can retaliate by doing something to them?
pf: which it obviously can't
pf: the admin/privs thing is one thing that i can specifically avoid by not interacting with acd in places where it can be an issue
pf: so i'm doing that
pf: when the fuck did "don't spam irc" become an acd rule, by the way
נויז: it isn't
נויז: not generally
pf: like that's nonsense
נויז: but i presume that people don't like it when the discord chat, which is formated less accomadating to spam, is spammed
pf: if i wanted to be told not to spam text chat or my privs would be taken away i'd still be in MIA and acd would never have happened
נויז: i don't imagine it's a rule
pf: i literally left and made my own team because people were telling me what to do
pf: the people must be free etc.
pf: the people being me in this case
נויז: i imagine it was more of a context kind of thing
pf: and free being able to move people and spam chat
pf: and the context would not have happened if danger and ab didn't have the ability to take away my privs
נויז: idk im pretty sure you can move people whenever you want
pf: except always
נויז: no, i mean, discord currently allows everyone to move everyone
נויז: so
נויז: yeah
נויז: i can't speak to the nature of spam
נויז: b/c i didnt like it even when it was on irc
נויז: but if you're doing it to piss someone off
נויז: i'd advise you not do it because you ought not to do something to annoy everyone b/c you have been annoyed
נויז: b/c that strikes me as an unkind thing to do
pf: it was a peaceful protest
pf: sometimes protests annoy bystanders
נויז: but that's my p e r s o n a l o p i n i o n
נויז: i'm happy you've authorized yourself to annoy me
נויז: :^)
נויז: but
נויז: Well, pf, here's the head of the problem and also the reason why I contribute to it. It seems to me that you can't accept some very basically simple facts: People don't listen to your calls when you make a call and it strikes them as basically wrong.
pf: but whether my actions were out of line or not isn't really relevant to my point here
נויז: This isn't an indicator of disrepect as much as it an indicator of a lack of respect; I have no particular reason to trust a call from you when it seems wrong -- I don't regard you as an expert because you've never displayed the marks of expertise.
נויז: In counterstrike, you were not known to frequently watch streams or converse about legit pro strarts in the way hotwire or peak-ab did.
pf: and at a point i recognized that and just stopped trying
pf: i would maintain that pro play isn't really directly applicable to our pubbing in either cs or dota though
pf: but that's so far away from anything that matters to argue about that i don't really care to debate that point
נויז: Not directly -- calling out a literal pro strart would be useless to us -- but it's more of a balancing test.
נויז: Being aware of pro strarts is just a mark int he "game knowledge mastery" subsection.
pf: i obviously now don't and for years haven't played cs on the level that ab and hotwire play it
pf: but in the first year or so when acd started playing it together it was valid for me to say 'let's try thing'
pf: when nobody but hotwire and maybe jshaw were really significatly ahead of the rest of everybody
pf: i dont remember the exact timing of jshaw joining but w/e
נויז: There's also a marked difference between, "lets try mid" -- a call that no one will listen to because "try mid" isn't a thing, you need to say, "I will smoke window in mid and we can take it" and then actually perform the action.
pf: which was actually what i was calling
נויז: Which, I gather, is a large reason ab disregards your calls
pf: i learned smokes
pf: to be able to try more strategic plays at specific points of the map
נויז: and whenever you smoked mid, you and the awper would go mid
נויז: and that's what a mid strat is
pf: you can pretend that people listened to what i said in cs and changed their behavior based on it
pf: i guess
pf: there's a reason i gave up trying though
נויז: well, I can't say i every enjoyed playing cs with acd
נויז: So my recollections aren't exactly top tier
pf: again though cs is literally half a decade ago
pf: not really a concern
נויז: So, we can talk about dota now
נויז: When you say things like, "of course the inititor dies" when discussing your abysmal k/d as legion offlane (when legion offlane was bad)
נויז: That's the kind of credibility destroying thing
נויז: that means that when you assert something, people don't take it as face value true
pf: legion offlane was never completely unviable like you guys made it out to be
pf: and my k/d overall on legion is ass because it's like 1/3 jungle lc
נויז: That you contineu to refuse to accept this is also credibility damaging
נויז: Becase there absolutely was a time period in which lc offlane was terrible
נויז: This is, of course, within the context of dota
נויז: where everything is sort of viable if you're good at it
pf: she's never been significantly changed though
נויז: but other heroes have
נויז: that's the rub
pf: what specifically changed to make lc viable
pf: "because you stopped playing it"
pf: is the answer i'd expect
נויז: nerfs to other dominant offlaners such as slardar and centaur
נויז: the pace of the game created by creep gold and bounty rune adjustm,ents
נויז: how strong carries are in the metagame, versus how strong supports are
pf: different question then
pf: around which patch did lc offlane become viable
נויז: i think it happened around the introduction of talents
נויז: b/c that totally rebalanced most of the offlane
נויז: So, there you have it.
pf: thank you for treating me like i have a valid question and actually answering
pf: it's appreciated
נויז: Now, we can do this right now b/c we have plenty of time and i have nothing im focusing on
pf: and notable
pf: we have had the beginning of this convo before though
pf: and it stopped at 'lc isn't/wasn't viable and you're bad'
pf: with no actual reasoning
נויז: however, when these arguments emerge while we're in a game of dota, i'm not intelligent enough to balance both an extended disagreement and playing mid
pf: not during a game of dota
pf: we're not discussing heroes' viability in the middle of a game
pf: unless somebody picked techies and i'm going 'well great we lose in 50 minutes'
נויז: well, part of this is the expectation that you are aware of how relatively well or poorly various heroes do in the meta
pf: what meta
נויז: seeing as synch, danger, ab, and to a elsser extent stia all pay attention to it
pf: every game we play is drastically different at our level
pf: and have very little relation to pro games
נויז: that doesn't mean that heroes are magically all equal
pf: that much is obvious just by looking at winrates vs. mmr on dotabuff
pf: obviously certain heroes are better or worse
pf: but there is a much wider group of heroes that don't make you lose at our level than at a pro level
pf: and those heroes aren't the same
נויז: but it
pf: and how effective individual players are at using particular heroes or play styles is a much bigger factor than the meta
נויז: but it's the choice to pick a suboptimal hero, and then insist that the hero isn't suboptimal that's the grating part
נויז: when it's clear to all of us that slardar, etc, is just better
נויז: like: right now, if you picked lc you'd eb an idiot
pf: people literally press a button to give them a random hero
נויז: b/c doom is just better
נויז: in every way
pf: is doom good again?
נויז: yeah, i don't pretend i;m on board for that
pf: haven't played dota in like 3 patches
נויז: he's insane
נויז: fucking invicible faggot demon
pf: i just want to play video games with my friends and not be treated like a lesser person
נויז: walk around and smack people with your fat burning demon dick for a ministun +%hp burn
pf: but it's to the point where i'm not going to be in a place where there's a technical method by which that's enforced
pf: so i guess that is an ultimatum
נויז: well, i don't know how to make it seem to you that you are not a "lesser person" when it comes to how people regard your mastery of video games
נויז: well, not necessarily seem, but rather have it be the actual treatment of you in regards to video games
נויז: because it has always seeemed to me that you regard people not agreeing with you as them treating you with condescention
pf: i dont have a problem with people disagreeing with me
pf: i love arguing
pf: it's when people are dismissive of things i say
נויז: well, part of it is when you're the only one insisting on some point
נויז: like, there is a certain point at which my obligation to convince you of some fact that is obvious to everyone else is going to start to get treated like a burden
נויז: and it's pretty damn quick when im annoyed at losing a game
נויז: and I'm not saying, "bow to the consensus"
pf: you literally are
נויז: but I am saying, when everyone sees blue and black and you're insisting on white and gold
pf: i feel like that's not the best metaphor
נויז: then the burden doesn't really seem to be on me to explain to you why you're wrong
נויז: rather, it would be on you to argue affirmatively your point
נויז: blah
pf: it's impossible to argue when there is no response
נויז: man i'm flagging
pf: "no you're wrong"
pf: "ok but x"
pf: responses are "no you're wrong
pf: or "..."
נויז: well, we can do this with the aged "initiators are mor likely to die" argument
נויז: when peopel say, "no that's wrong"
נויז: it's, at the basic level, a statement that whatever you just asserted is false
נויז: (which is why, if at the time you made that argument, you had known that most intiators rushed to buy items like force staff and uels to boost their survibility you might have realized why that assertion was false)
נויז: Because at a very basic level that claim isn't true
נויז: or, rather ought not to be true
נויז: aggh
נויז: im not explaining this well
נויז: i can barely keep my eyes open
נויז: im going to go to bed
נויז: also: we need to find games that are more cooperative
נויז: like eu4
pf: or ratas
נויז: or ratas
pf: which people flat refused to play unless i wasn't there
נויז: ?
pf: that was nice
נויז: tubes was always trying to rustle people up for that game
pf: (when i wasn't there)
נויז: did you happen to come on during the time wherein everyone was 5quing a dota game
pf: i'm just memeing at this point
pf: go to bed
pf is now Online.
pf: anyway if the thought is that you guys are playing dota at a level i can't even comprehend, why would you want me to play or why would i want to play with you
pf: like what's the point if that's how you guys feel
pf: and aren't going to make any kind of effort to engage me
pf: same thing with discord - if i'm a notorious admin abuser who needs a strong admin to keep me in line
pf: why would i come around and subject you guys and myself to that
pf: seems like both everybody else and me are less happy when i'm around
pf: so
נויז: that's not the thought, pf
נויז: in fact, i'm often baffled by the fact that you voluntarily refuse to assent to basic dota knowledge relayed by myself, ab, danger, and stia
נויז: seeing as we're certainly not on "different" levels of dota play
נויז: such as certain heroes being good, etc
נויז: moreover, you're not a "notrious admin abuser" that no one trusts
נויז: when it came down to giving a person admin, we went with one of the people who is traditionally always around
נויז: ab's record was slightly cleaner than yours so anethema picked him
pf is now Away.
נויז: as a matter of fact, a point which was discussed by anethema, had you not come in and started throwing around ultimatums, you probably would have gotten admin
נויז: because we don't really care, but at this point are pretty well comitted to not giving you want you want because you're being a bit silly about all of this
נויז: i'd say childish, but i'd rather not come off as condescending
נויז: but you are the only person that consistently has trouble with this
נויז: and you can feel free to blame us, blame ab's cyberbullying, and feel that we are being the unreasonable party