Disney Genderbending Debacle

sashencat
Hello there! I just wanted to ask and confirm, would it be possible for a character's gender to differ from their Disney counterpart? If, for example, I wanted to play Beauty as a man instead of a woman?

yensidtownhq
I don’t see an inherent problem with doing that, but often gender does effect who a character is. Because of that I would expect to see that change reflected in the application.

If it’s a gender swap for the sake of a gender swap then there might be a better solution. For example specifically for male!Belle, I would be curious why not apply for Milo instead since he is very similar appeal to Belle and is already male?

We’re not opposed to the idea of doing gender swaps at all. We just want to make sure it’s well thought out and purposeful. I hope that makes sense and helps! If you’d like to chat about your specific ideas, feel free to send an IM!

sashencat
Okay, so re: your questions about a purposeful switch and why not Milo instead of male!Belle, I actually do have some thoughts on it! I chose a role like Beauty, not necessarily because of her curiosity and thirst for adventure (traits she shares with Milo that are still interesting in their own right, just not my focus), but more for her role in the narrative itself as somebody who is initially only valued for her looks instead of anything else about her.

I feel there's plenty of value in exploring that concept with a male character instead since, while men are not nearly objectified or devalued for their looks as much as women, it's their kindness, compassion, and care for other people that's often overlooked. It's not too often that you see a man in the position of having to look past outer looks and help someone overcome anger and self-loathing through displays of empathy and goodwill.

That's why I wanted to turn the trope on its head, because women are often *expected* to see past a man's brutish appearance and love them anyway, but it's still a rare thing for a man to do the same, especially in fiction! I hope this is a good enough justification and doesn't come off as wanting to see Beauty genderswapped for genderswapping's sake!

yensidtownhq
It definitely doesn't sound like gender swapping for gender swapping sake, but being valued only for your beauty is such a normal thing women experience it's hard to see that being portrayed as a man. I'm discussing with the other mods to get other opinions, but my first impression is that's a really hard sell which I think you know it is by the way you've worded your ask. I'm really sorry :( I know that's not fun to hear. I'm doing some googling to see if there's a way for you to do that plot with another disney character

yensidtownhq
I guess when I think of men who's looks are over valued in Disney Flynn comes to mind as well as Naveen

yensidtownhq
And there's Gaston of course, but that's a totally different kind of thing than what it sounds like you're going for

sashencat
I mean, the reason I did ask in the first place was because I was prepared for the possibility to be shut down, but I thought that providing my reasoning for making a change would help in allowing it to be less of a tough sell.

You can feel differently, but I personally feel that there is absolutely potential to explore a man's experience with their appearances without diminishing the struggles that women go through. I'd also like to point out that Belle's story doesn't just stop at people recognizing the fact that she's intelligent as well as pretty. It also has to do in large part with the power of transformative love and how spending time getting to know the person underneath a supposedly beastly exterior is worthwhile.

*That* is something that a male character can benefit from experiencing, along with portraying a character whose emotional sensitivity and compassion is his strength, not his rogueish charm or muscles. It's not really something that Flynn or Naveen or especially not Gaston could exemplify, and I hope that you understand that *this* is the crux of what I want to portray. Not something that puts undue focus on "buh-buh-but what about unrealistic beauty standards for MEN?" It was part of my thought process, but not the entire basis.

yensidtownhq
Certainly that's true, but that assumes that your character will have a ship in the rpg, which isn't something I can guarantee you. I can't even guarantee other characters will like yours, so that plot sounds fabulous for something like an indie, but a transformative love plot in an rpg is hard unless you've got a friend coming with you that y'all already have it decided and set up.

yensidtownhq
When I give my feedback on the character I'm not just speaking from my own personal tastes. I'm speaking from someone that's run a lot of rpgs and knows what kind of characters are popular and unpopular.

sashencat
I've also got experience in running and participating in RPGs and from my point of view, the point of a roleplay is to allow plots to develop organically without shoehorning things in. I don't expect or require a ship and not every love has to necessarily be romantic to be meaningful. There's no guarantee that anybody will like a character, but isn't that true of anything that involves what basically amount to OCs in character archetypes? I was under the impression that the appeal of a Disney reboot is to allow things to unfold differently from how they do in the films, and my goal here isn't to have everything happen exactly as I describe here but to show that the concept I'm pitching has potential. Nobody knows what's going to happen and I assumed that was sort of the aim here, so I'm not really sure what you mean by characters being popular or unpopular, especially not when I haven't mentioned anything about my actual character beyond his connection to Beauty and the Beast.

yensidtownhq
If you know you might not get a ship though, why apply for a character where the appeal to you is the ship? Transformative love is the draw, right? Or am I misunderstanding?

yensidtownhq
Or maybe another idea is to keep male!beauty in the back of your mind, get to know people in the rp with another first character, and have Belle ready if someone wants to play Adam or whoever with that plot against a male Belle.

sashencat
Because I'm interested in seeing what other relationship dynamics could potentially crop up. What's the point of applying for any Disney princess whose character arc revolves around her romantic relationships, like Cinderella, Snow White, or Sleeping Beauty? Their stories' appeal heavily centers around romance, but that's not the only appealing thing about their characters. It doesn't necessarily even have to involve Adam/the Beast; wasn't it mentioned that canon relationships aren't required and crossover interactions are fine?

yensidtownhq
Yep! They aren't. I'm just trying to gauge your interest in having male Belle, and it sounds like the idea of transformative love is what attracts you to the character, not necessarily her traits like being adventurous or her intelligence since you could get those with other characters

sashencat
That was my reasoning for not going for a more easily accessible male character like Milo based solely on those traits, not that I was rejecting them out of hand. I don't necessarily need to focus on her brains or her spirit just like I don't necessarily need to focus on the aspect of love transforming a person, but together that makes a whole package that is uniquely served through Belle and no other character.

yensidtownhq
I think that's where our disagreement lies. If male Belle is your only option then I don't think it's going to work out. I'd prefer to find a male character that gives you what you're looking for when it comes to her. As far as gender swapping I'd be more comfortable with characters where gender wasn't inherently a part of their story.

sashencat
Okay, I can understand that. The thing I'm having trouble understanding is why that wasn't the first thing that was said when I asked about doing a swap like this. When I initially asked you, your response was that you didn't find anything inherently wrong with the idea, you wanted to make sure that it was well thought out and purposeful. I did my best to oblige and give you my thoughts so that it would fit the bill. Is there some failure of reasoning in my argument that didn't live up to those expectations? Because if not, then I don't see why you couldn't have mentioned that in the first place and I could have spent the time trying to convince you just applying for a different character instead. I never once stated that Belle was my only option, but I thought that by discussing these details with me that you were open to negotiation. If the answer is still no, then it's no, and that's fine, I just don't understand what prompted the need for debating about this if the conclusion came down to a character's story being tied intrinsically to their gender.

yensidtownhq
I think another character would make more sense. I'm not going to say anything bad about a character that's clearly dear to your heart, so that's why I'm not being more specific. I just can't be cruel like that.
Sorry that took so long, was eating dinner with the fam

sashencat
I'm specifically asking for critique here, though, is the thing. If I'm being denied, I feel that I at least deserve the right to know why with specifics. From my point of view, I've presented you with a solid concept for a character and I'm being denied for reasons I don't understand, so if you could explain it to me in clear terms, I would appreciate that.

sashencat
Implying that you could be saying bad things about my character without actually explaining anything seems more than a little dodgy to me.

yensidtownhq
I totally understand, but that's just not me. I'm so sorry :(

sashencat
Could one of the other mods explain it to me, then?