Got a bit pissed here but i was seeing red at the end.

I do have sympathy for people in capitalist systems. I mean I am one. Like the whole "There is no ethical consumption under capatalism" is a big thing I believe
Perish - [Zach] - Today at 5:52 PM
There's no ethical consumption under any government system.
what do you mean by ethical consumption?
Ultra - Today at 5:53 PM
You have to understand that it's either a corp/business is for profit, or they have to rely on donations, which in turn, ends up just being a different form of profit.
Churches aren't for profit!
But hey, donate to us so you won't feel bad. ;)
For-Profit or not, any and all businesses must have a revenue of some sort.
Perish - [Zach] - Today at 5:53 PM
.....
Oh.
Ultra - Today at 5:53 PM
By your logic, you have 0 sympathy for next to everyone involved in this system.
Perish - [Zach] - Today at 5:53 PM
Looked it up.
It's the whole "Voting with your dollar" thing.
Ultra - Today at 5:54 PM
Even if an effort/movement is funded, that's still revenue needed.
Perish - [Zach] - Today at 5:54 PM
i'd argue that in my own opinion, despite it's flaws, capitalism is probably the best thing we have right now.
Ultra - Today at 5:55 PM
Wanna know what happens then? Whoever helped fund whatever it was will then need funds to make up for the ones they lost. No matter what, somebody in the system at some point in their lifespan has to seek profit.
Calli - Today at 5:55 PM
I'm not saying don't make money
Ultra - Today at 5:55 PM
If I, and everyone else could do all the good shit we all want to do for the world for free or without making money of some sort, then we would live in a perfect world.
Calli - Today at 5:55 PM
But big corporations are more set on maximizing profits at the expense of ethical practices
Ultra - Today at 5:55 PM
Which ones?
Calli - Today at 5:56 PM
We could take the most egregious example of Nestle
Perish - [Zach] - Today at 5:56 PM
yeah but there's an issue about talking about that Calli and trying to enforce the "Vote with your Dollar" thing.
90% of people either don't know or don't give a shit.
and that's with everything in this economy
it's why companies like EA can still make profits.
Calli - Today at 5:57 PM
I'm saying it's impossible to vote with your wallet a lot of the times
Maladapted Daydreamer [Theo] - Today at 5:57 PM
The problem isn't capitalism solely so much as the fact that it affects the government system as well.
And that it pretty much becomes an oligarchy when you think about it
Calli - Today at 5:57 PM
Because there is so rarely a good option that's actually ethic
Perish - [Zach] - Today at 5:58 PM
well there's rarely a good option that's ethical and cheap.
Calli - Today at 5:58 PM
Zach honestly you can even remove the cheap qualifier.
Perish - [Zach] - Today at 5:59 PM
that is another issue is that people 90% of the time will go for something cheaper and 90% of "Ethical" stuff that's sold is expensive as hell man.
although i'm
exaggerating
🍖jin🍖 - Today at 5:59 PM
unfortunately i just had to stop caring and become a Slave To The Machine all of that is too much for me even though i know thats what they want
Maladapted Daydreamer [Theo] - Today at 5:59 PM
That's bc even morals have a price:)
Perish - [Zach] - Today at 5:59 PM
don't take my word on that, I don't know the exact statistics
🍖jin🍖 - Today at 5:59 PM
buf i barely have money as it is and i don't have much of a choice
Maladapted Daydreamer [Theo] - Today at 6:00 PM
It's true. Free range beef is twice the price of factory beeef
Calli - Today at 6:00 PM
Zach what I'm saying is a lot of the time there isn't even an ethical option at all let alone a cheap one
Maladapted Daydreamer [Theo] - Today at 6:00 PM
Unfortunately the cow gets processed in the same way at the end
Calli - Today at 6:00 PM
Like if I wanted to boycott Nestle for being a shitty company these are all the things I'd have to avoid to just avoid Nestle

Maladapted Daydreamer [Theo] - Today at 6:00 PM
Because- yeah what calli said
Perish - [Zach] - Today at 6:00 PM
i just know between a 10 dollar cereal brand that claims to be made by a small company and is 100% organic and is in a small box, VS a similar 5 dollar box that's 3 times the size, has more food in it but is made by some big corporation
i'm gonna choose the 5 dollar box
Calli - Today at 6:01 PM
Which is my point
Perish - [Zach] - Today at 6:01 PM
unfortunately i'm biased when it comes to nestle
Calli - Today at 6:01 PM
There is not feasible way to have ethical consumption under capitalism
Perish - [Zach] - Today at 6:01 PM
it will be a cold day in hell when i give up wonka candy.
Maladapted Daydreamer [Theo] - Today at 6:01 PM
That's really just Earth as a whole
Blood for blood, man's gotta eat. It's never been pretty either
Perish - [Zach] - Today at 6:01 PM
^
Calli - Today at 6:02 PM
Except it doesn't have to be this way
Ultra - Today at 6:02 PM
I like literally 0 of Nestle's products
Maladapted Daydreamer [Theo] - Today at 6:02 PM
Oh no not these days
Ultra - Today at 6:02 PM
I'm clean
Maladapted Daydreamer [Theo] - Today at 6:02 PM
But the idea of currency is kind of where we fucked up
Perish - [Zach] - Today at 6:02 PM
Calli most stuff nowadays comes at the expense of something else.
Calli - Today at 6:02 PM
I'm aware of that, but I don't accept that as something we shouldn't change
Maladapted Daydreamer [Theo] - Today at 6:02 PM
And abolishing currency isn't really any more a feasible or better solution
Ultra - Today at 6:03 PM
We all get assigned powerlevels and go from there...
Calli - Today at 6:03 PM
Zach that's literally the point I'm trying to make, as of right now it's impossible not to be screwing over someone with my purchases
Perish - [Zach] - Today at 6:03 PM
Well yeah it sucks but that's just the way the world is.
Calli - Today at 6:04 PM
We shouldn't let the way the world is dictate our understanding of how it both could and should be
Perish - [Zach] - Today at 6:04 PM
so long as there exist quick yet unethical ways to maximize profits there's gonna be people who take advantage of that.
Ultra - Today at 6:04 PM
You're not screwing anyone over with your purchases, that's a bad mindset
Calli - Today at 6:04 PM
Is it though?
Perish - [Zach] - Today at 6:04 PM
^
what mark said.
Ultra - Today at 6:04 PM
Yes
Maladapted Daydreamer [Theo] - Today at 6:04 PM
What we need is a system that encourages us to eat people who abuse the system
Kirito - Today at 6:04 PM
This
Ultra - Today at 6:04 PM
Because you put yourself into this mindset where you believe your single purchase matters, even though somebody will make that purchase for you instead. :y
Perish - [Zach] - Today at 6:04 PM
thinking that way is just gonna lead to you being a bitter person who people look at as being some crazy hippie or some shit.
Maladapted Daydreamer [Theo] - Today at 6:05 PM
But there's few if anything in the world that actively encourages/rewards GOOD behaviour
Ultra - Today at 6:05 PM
You can go ahead and skip out on any corp's products, but it won't save anyone.
Buying/Not buying won't save/hurt them, they're all too big
Perish - [Zach] - Today at 6:05 PM
and that's another thing, one person can barely make a difference when it comes to stuff like this.
Ultra - Today at 6:05 PM
Yeah, and saying "Well if everyone thought this way.." Wouldn't work, either.
Some corps have so many products that you end up buying some while avoiding others and not even realize it.
Maladapted Daydreamer [Theo] - Today at 6:05 PM
Yeah if you boycott a company they just fire their workers to make up for profit loss so that the CEOs pocket doesn't get lighter for it lol
Calli - Today at 6:06 PM
Mark that's the same logic people use for doing things like not voting, not recycling, and so many other things that people speak out against all the time that most people agree is dumb logic
Maladapted Daydreamer [Theo] - Today at 6:06 PM
Which is why I'm saying we should just eat them
Ultra - Today at 6:06 PM
Theo when did you become me
gtfo of here >:c
Perish - [Zach] - Today at 6:06 PM
well guess what, it's a valid fucking option regardless calli.
Maladapted Daydreamer [Theo] - Today at 6:06 PM
You merely attained the same level of power as me
You saw through my eyes for a split second, Mark
Perish - [Zach] - Today at 6:06 PM
Don't like either of the Candidates in an election? You have the option not to vote at all, which is what I did.
🍖jin🍖 - Today at 6:07 PM
vore! vore! v
Maladapted Daydreamer [Theo] - Today at 6:07 PM
I also eat people who didn't vote
Heartless Kindra - Today at 6:07 PM
The difference is that the benefit to voting greatly outweigh the downside to not voting. Same with Recycling.

Boycotting is difficult in that it's not just meant to hurt their profit, but hurt their PR. It's supposed to force them to adapt or slowly suffocate from the damage to their reputation.
At the same time, you're also putting the people at the lower end of that pyramid at risk
Maladapted Daydreamer [Theo] - Today at 6:08 PM
Like if there wasn't [someone who didn't vote] in front of me I'd probably be ranting and tearing through the concept of people who don't vote
Calli - Today at 6:08 PM
Alright I'm being lost a bit here. I'm literally trying to say a boycott would be impossible
Because we'd have to boycott so much shit that'd we'd probably end up not eating enough
Ultra - Today at 6:09 PM
I live near countryland, so fortunately I can avoid big name brands and whatnot
Calli - Today at 6:09 PM
So our solution should be more of a top level change than a grass roots level boycotting change
Perish - [Zach] - Today at 6:09 PM
yeah but here's the thing, I don't worry myself with all that information because i know if i worried about every little thing I buy or consume I wouldn't be able to emotionally handle it and i'd end up being stressed over shit i can't control.
Maladapted Daydreamer [Theo] - Today at 6:09 PM
What I do is pick the lesser evil
Like zephyrhills hasn't done as much as nestle
Calli - Today at 6:10 PM
Hot take that's something that should be happening. I get that it's not healthy but it's the same logic that leads to us getting ways to keep the homeless out of sight so we don't have to look at that.
Maladapted Daydreamer [Theo] - Today at 6:10 PM
So I always get their bottles.
Then again, who tf buys nestle water
Ultra - Today at 6:10 PM
>buying bottled water
Maladapted Daydreamer [Theo] - Today at 6:10 PM
I'm 80% sure nestle just bottles most of their water and dumps it into the ocean whilst giving everyone three middle fingers
Perish - [Zach] - Today at 6:11 PM
I don't think it's the same logic, it fucking sucks and it fucking hurts but what I can legitimately do to help something I can't control?
🍖jin🍖 - Today at 6:11 PM
im already mentally volatile i cant afford to constantly worry about what im doing but call me out
Perish - [Zach] - Today at 6:11 PM
like with the homeless the most i can do is donate what little money i have or work at a soup kitchen or something.
Calli - Today at 6:11 PM
Like Zach if literally everyone was on the verge of an emotional breakdown everytime we bought things that'd lead to the problem being solved really fucking quick IMO
Perish - [Zach] - Today at 6:11 PM
Yeah but that's a fucking stupid mindset.
Maladapted Daydreamer [Theo] - Today at 6:11 PM
Great argument, Zach(edited)
Perish - [Zach] - Today at 6:12 PM
and it's led to shit like people not being able to take a damn joke because they act like even the slightest little bit of offense will cause irreperable emotional and mental damage.
Maladapted Daydreamer [Theo] - Today at 6:12 PM
Logisticians will quote that for longer than we'll see
Perish - [Zach] - Today at 6:12 PM
there needs to be a balance between the two mindsets.
Calli - Today at 6:12 PM
"Not being able to take a joke" God I hate those fucking debates
Perish - [Zach] - Today at 6:13 PM
yes we should be aware of these things, NO we shouldn't worry about those things 24 fucking 7
Ultra - Today at 6:13 PM
>2018
>really just giving a shit about most things
don't be like me
Maladapted Daydreamer [Theo] - Today at 6:13 PM
Generally the people claiming others are too sensitive for their sense of humour
I find the most sensitive?
Ultra - Today at 6:13 PM
I say stuff like that, and I'm only sensitive when mentally unstable
Other than that I don't give a f u c k
Maladapted Daydreamer [Theo] - Today at 6:13 PM
I'm a son of sailors nothing you say makes me cry. Unless its my mum, then i fight ye
Perish - [Zach] - Today at 6:14 PM
no i'm claiming people these days are too sensitive in general, like those people who boycott certain people talking at universities just because they have a stance they don't agree with.
Maladapted Daydreamer [Theo] - Today at 6:14 PM
But like, these "LOL SNOWFLAKE" people are sooo squishy???(edited)
Perish - [Zach] - Today at 6:14 PM
then again i'm talking to people who believe it's ok to silence anyone who has a "Bad opinion"
Ultra - Today at 6:14 PM
yEAH THEY ARE
THEY ARE, I WOULD KNOW.
Calli - Today at 6:14 PM
I mean it is
Ultra - Today at 6:14 PM
believe me :ok_hand:
Maladapted Daydreamer [Theo] - Today at 6:15 PM
Depends on what you call a bad opinion
Calli - Today at 6:15 PM
Depending on the level it's definitely alright to silence opinions on your platform as long as it's not the country doing it
🍖jin🍖 - Today at 6:15 PM
2018 is the year of only caring about my happiness call me an evil narc but its been the best
Perish - [Zach] - Today at 6:15 PM
Calli, you know what?
Maladapted Daydreamer [Theo] - Today at 6:15 PM
But one that establishes hate is an opinion to be silenced
Generally no questions
Perish - [Zach] - Today at 6:15 PM
You're a hypocrite, a giant hypocrite and I honestly have no idea how you can sleep at night.
Maladapted Daydreamer [Theo] - Today at 6:15 PM
People have forgotten that these days, and confuse giving hateful mindsets consideration as Logical
Zach, stop
This is the debate channel, not the whine channel
Ultra - Today at 6:16 PM
can we have a wine channel, where we discuss wines..
Maladapted Daydreamer [Theo] - Today at 6:16 PM
You can logically debate situations. But i won't allow tantrums and name calling
Perish - [Zach] - Today at 6:16 PM
No this has to do with everything calli's been saying and i'm gonna lead up to that.
Calli - Today at 6:16 PM
Like alright say someone wanted to say "I think trans people are just mentally ill". That's not the type of discourse a university wants to have so it shuts it down. That's fine
Ultra - Today at 6:16 PM
compress it into one message
Perish - [Zach] - Today at 6:16 PM
Calli, do you believe people don't deserve to suffer?
Maladapted Daydreamer [Theo] - Today at 6:16 PM
I should have marked your "dumb fucking mindset" comment as strike 1
But I'll just have to put that out there now
Pip - Today at 6:17 PM
id like a  wine channel
Perish - [Zach] - Today at 6:17 PM
fine.
Maladapted Daydreamer [Theo] - Today at 6:17 PM
If you're going to debate, I ask that you handle it like one.
Calli - Today at 6:17 PM
Depends on the suffering, what led up to it, and a whole bunch of different factors
🍖jin🍖 - Today at 6:17 PM
can i discuss my recent addiction to orange juice
Maladapted Daydreamer [Theo] - Today at 6:17 PM
Bring logical, factual information to the table. No tantrums and namecalling, most of us are older than that
Pip - Today at 6:17 PM
only if its fermented oj
Perish - [Zach] - Today at 6:21 PM
I don't agree with you Calli, in any sense of the word, I think worrying about stuff you can't control and acting like people need to be upset by every little bad thing in the world otherwise the world can't improve is not only feasibly impossible from an emotional standpoint but would lead to people's lives being controlled in an effort to make sure no one is offense, that no one is hurt. I believe in world where everyone is free to do what they wish and if people decide to do bad things then that's their decision and they will face consequences for those decisions, people need that freedom to not be worried that a bunch of people who have deemed what they say offensive are gonna come in and ruin their lives just because of what they said. Believe me, i'd love a world where everyone gets along and no one is hurt but the idea of that utopia is not only unrealistic due to the nature of humanity but is something I personally believe we will never achieve in our lifetimes, we can get close but we will never achieve total peace where nobody is hurt.
*offended
Maladapted Daydreamer [Theo] - Today at 6:21 PM
the problem here is that the only thing to stop people from doing bad things, zach, is other people
and those people must be controlled too, such that they do not take their skew of justice into their own hands
Perish - [Zach] - Today at 6:22 PM
Which is another reason why the idea of a world like this is unrealistic.
Maladapted Daydreamer [Theo] - Today at 6:22 PM
therein rises an eventual system and its troubles. A world where everyone's free to do whatever isn't a utopia either
Calli - Today at 6:22 PM
Okay but Zach, have you considered the consequences are other people treating you differently?
Ultra - Today at 6:22 PM
This is the third time.
Perish - [Zach] - Today at 6:22 PM
Calli.
No.
I never consider that.
Because I don't find it true in any sense of the word.
I don't blame other people for my life not being perfect.
you want your life to be better? Take it into your own hands and shape your destiny yourself.
Ultra - Today at 6:24 PM
Yet again I can't add much to this, as not much of anything effects me since I don't give bad shit in my life any kind of power
Perish - [Zach] - Today at 6:25 PM
and ignore anyone who tries to stop you.
Calli - Today at 6:25 PM
Okay but Zach, if someone starts spouting hateful opinions which a lot of people veiw as a bad thing. what should be the consequences?
Perish - [Zach] - Today at 6:26 PM
their opinions should be ignored but at the same time you need to try and understand why they have that opinion so maybe one day their opinion can change.
Calli - Today at 6:27 PM
Also Zach, if you have the ability to ignore people that try to stop you improving your life that's pretty priveleged
Perish - [Zach] - Today at 6:27 PM
ignorance damns progress
>privelege
Do not talk to me about that.