4-hour argument

Source: Exhibit Plt343

[It’s easy to lose your place in this 4-hour tape, so I’ve put timestamps every 5 minutes and after breaks in the conversation.]

[0:00:00] JD: it’s always me, I keep doing stuff wrong. I really can’t feel like that all the time. And there’s quite a lot of time that, you know, you can become very sensitive about small things. And s**t, so can I too. You know, I can too.

AH: But it’s the same things.

JD: No, no it’s not. It’s not necessarily the same things. I—

AH: If you look at the bigger picture…

JD: I become irrational when you’re doing movies, I become jealous and f**king crazy and weird and, you know, we fight a lot more. But I don’t want to do that anymore. I don’t.

AH: I don’t either. But you’re not picking you apart. You only see criticism as an insult and picking you apart. You never actually go: I’m a human, I make mistakes. It’s not even that I make mistakes all the time. I have quirks. You have your own, I have my own. And if we look at every thing that the other person says, “Hey, I need this differently, or this made me feel bad, or I want you to be aware of this ’cause it kind of stung me—”

JD: I wish I would have done that. I wish I would have done that a million times.

AH: Every single time we bring it up, we can’t see it as like an ego shutdown. It can just be a thing we can work on. I know, I have them. I have things that I want to be able to hear from you that aren’t mean but just “this hurt me”, or “don’t do that, that stung me”. Or look, if I go over to stay with Rocky and the girls, and I stay for that long, after I also like, you know, was upstairs for so long—

JD: But you have.

AH: But, okay so when I do, if it affects you negatively.

JD: It doesn’t.

AH: Then it’s irrelevant. It’s about what the other person needs. You live a life with somebody.

JD: It’s not irrelevant, I’m just saying, I’m not gonna get p**sed off. Because it’s something that you want to do, somewhere you want to be.

AH: You have different things. Baby, baby, baby. You have different things that affect you than I do.

JD: We all do, of course.

AH: We’re two different people, living in a life together, and the best we can do is say these are my corners, this is what affects me, this is yours, you know, and you might not be affected by that. However, sometimes you might be, and sometimes you might feel like I disappear in my closet and you were waiting with coffee or whatever. And I want to be in a relationship where you can tell me, “I was waiting here with coffee, I thought you were going to be back”, and then, I need to be the person who would be like – if it affected you and you’re not just trying to make a point of it – if it really did affect you I’d say sorry, or I’d want to be that person that said sorry. I might not always be, and I’ll f**king change that. But I need to be able – you can’t – if you see every criticism as “You’re a f**kup”, I can’t ever say “This affects me negatively.” Anything.

JD: No but, one doesn’t feel – like, if there’s criticism even three times a month, four times a month. That’s a lot. It’s once a week. When it’s more than that, it’s really really f**king weird. It’s weird. It’s upsetting.

AH: I agree.

JD: It’s upsetting because I only feel like you see me in a way that, whatever. I mean, you keep saying that I gotta step up, you know, stop running away. The things that you’ve called running away in the past, are me trying to get out of a fight that could escalate into something really ugly and violent. And I don’t ever want that again for us. I don’t want it.

AH: I agree.

JD: I lost my finger.

AH: But it is not, it is not criticism of you every day or every f**king week or – It’s the same thing that you do that you don’t work on, that you don’t actually change. You don’t. And it affects everybody, it’s not me alone. It’s just that I’m the only one who doesn’t work for you and can actually say to you, “this affects me”. [0:05:00] I’m really glad that people like Shep(?) in your life can actually say to you “this affects me”. But you were let off the hook, as you should have been. It’s that thing that you do, where very little people in your life can do what Shep did, or what I do, which is say “that f**king affects me”. No one else is gonna say that to you.

JD: But baby, for example: I was ready. Now, I wasn’t ready long before you.

AH: I don’t want to talk about specifics though. You know it’s a bigger thing.

JD: No but… I know, it is a bigger thing, for sure. I know. I’m late. I’m late.

AH: I just feel like breaking it down in this one example, this minimizes it.

JD: I know, okay yeah but –

AH: You know, if you want to, go ahead, but I don’t want to fight about a fight. I wanna talk about the bigger things, which is I’m not criticizing you all the time: “You do this, you dress this, don’t do this, don’t do that.” I have f**king –  it is one thing and it’s pretty f**king consistent. I have one major criticism of you that I really feel like is important in fights, that really affects us negatively. That’s in fights. I’m talking about in life. It is that one f**king thing, it is the K-hole of attention that is your gaze. It’s like, whatever is there, everything else disappears. It’s whatever’s in front of you, and you lose track of [inaudible]. That’s what makes you late.

JD: It’s my brain. [inaudible]

AH: Yes, and I love your brain. And I love everything that you have going on. I love you. You’re the same. You could have anyone you want. I could have anyone I want. I love you, most of all because of what’s in here, and in here. I love your brain, I love your heart, and I love you. I love being with you. I have one criticism, and it pops up in different examples, and in different facets. But it is really one thing. And it is the lack of – of consideration, not intentional. And you make it sound like I keep saying, oh well you do this and you do this and I’m criticizing you all the time. It’s not the case. It’s one thing that comes up in different, not very different forms but comes up in different examples. It is the disappearing act of your attention and energy, and sometimes you’re great and you’re so clear and lucid and present, and that’s a different thing altogether. However, lately, it’s, you know, there’s a lot going on, and it hasn’t really been like that, you know. You haven’t been the one to go “Oh I need to text her, I’ve been over here for like an hour.” Or it doesn’t make me –

JD: I should –

AH: F**k it, I’m giving an example. I didn’t mean to give an example, sorry.

JD: No, but while you use the example, I should have. In retrospect, even then, of course it crossed my mind. And then I thought “well, she’s probably cool, she’s just taking a shower or she’s getting her makeup off, whatever.”

AH: Oh okay. Yeah.

JD: I mean, that’s what I was thinking. And I was trying to get out of there for a long time.

AH: I’m sure you were.

JD: And when I finally did get out, it was you know another 15, 20 minutes at the door, you know.

AH: Yeah.

JD: And I said “Dude, I’ll come back tomorrow and we’ll talk about it, I’ll come back tomorrow, come back tomorrow”. But he was obviously starved for a chat, attention, and you know especially—

AH: I invited him over for dinner and we hung out—

JD: I know, ’cause I knocked on the door.

AH: We hung out for like an hour, downstairs, and talked. You were missed, sorely missed.

JD: But I was only upstairs.

AH: I know! I know! And I wasn’t mad about it, you know? I mean, it’s kind of like a joke. You know, Rocky and Josh went “Oh yeah, you know, another…” What did Rocky – Josh said “Another ten minutes,” he said, “we’re gonna time it.” And then we thought f**king no, ’cause it’s just so amazing. And I said, yeah actually I’d be curious of the time, ’cause in France we did the game where we would all bet: 55, 45, an hour and a half, or an hour and five. You know, and whenever you would come right back from “ten minutes, I’ll be right behind you”. It would be – no one would ever guess less than 45. And it was between 45 and an hour and five, whoever got the prize. And it’s a joke, it’s almost a joke. I most of the time can laugh it off, ’cause I know you and I know it’s you. But it’s so chronic, the lateness, it’s so chronic and it’s gotten so bad. Whitney even said it, “this is like, it’s gotten worse.” It’s so bad, it’s so late, so regularly. [0:10:00] And so consistently not on it – whatever that is, multitasking, whatever you wanna call it – that I do voice it sometimes when it hurts me. It does hurt me sometimes when I’m upstairs and I’m reading and I shower and I’m like, well I don’t want to bother him, he’s where he wants to be. But that’s what hurts. You’re wherever you wanna be, and I’m not –

JD: I understand.

AH: And I’m waiting for you and—

JD: Well at Issac’s I wasn’t where I wanted to be. I wanted to be back here in bed, cause I was hallucinating tired. And—

AH: All I wanted was to be able to say that to you, and have you respond like that, and just say “You know what, I’m sorry.” It would have meant so much to me.

JD: I – I – I – I would have. I would have if you hadn’t been so kind of aggressive, man.

AH: I’m sorry. You’re right, I didn’t handle it very well, but I, that’s ’cause I assumed you’d go “ah I’m f**king up, I’m always a f**kup, you’re always on me!” And get mad at me and then yell at me and be defensive and make it a fight about me.

JD: No, but look, for example. And I didn’t f**king say anything, I can’t, I’m not gonna say anything to them when I get there, you know. But look, and I don’t mean this in a mean way, I’m truly just giving you my observation. Every day before I went either to rehearsal or the sound show, for the Roxy, you would hit me up with some problem or whatever, something you felt, or something I didn’t do, or this or that. And it was every day of rehearsal.

AH: I was upset about Tornoto that entire time, and I was trying to suppress it.

JD: It was during rehearsal, and I was at least 30 minutes late for rehearsal every day. And I was 45 minutes late for the sound show for Roxy. You know, and…

AH: Well it wasn’t only because of me. That’s not fair. You were late, but I took maybe 5 minutes. I didn’t get more than 5 minutes of your time a single one of those days.

JD: No! No no, no no no. Please.

AH: And every time, I didn’t take more than 5 minutes. We talked the first two days, no, the first day of rehearsal, the first two days of rehearsal, before you went up and showered and stuff. That was you, and your not managing the time, you cannot put that on me. That’s what took you an hour. I didn’t have even 5 minutes.

JD: Listen, like I said, I don’t wanna fight with you. I don’t wanna fight with you about this. But your perception of 5 minutes in this case is – off.

AH: Okay. Well, coming from you I’ll take that, because I think you have a hard time with time as well.

JD: With what?

AH: I think you have a hard time perceiving time, so if you tell me my perception’s off on time, I’ll take it.

JD: I’m telling you how late I was.

AH: That’s you going up to shower. That’s you waiting to talk to your wife until literally you were rushed and telling me you had to go every… well, I don’t want to get into it, but I was just trying to suppress fighting.

JD: You were upset that I wasn’t able to spend the mornings with you. That was actually because you get up late.

AH: No, I was upset from Toronto! I didn’t even want to be – The thing is, I was really struggling that whole week, because I was looking online for apartment rentals. One minute, I mean one hour I thought – I mean, I’d wake up in the morning and think I’m gonna be fine this morning. I’m gonna not think about it, all the s**t. And I would by the end of the day – even in the morning, trying not to bring it up, but then also realizing that my own marriage was being destroyed. I found a counselor that could help, like, with, you know, separation. I found, or looked at apartments online.

JD: I didn’t know you went that far.

AH: I did, because I could not imagine getting over the pain of what happened in Toronto. It was so bad.

JD: I couldn’t imagine getting over a lot of s**t, like on the plane.

AH: Yes, but—

JD: That was the second time.

AH: Both participated in that. Toronto? All I did in Toronto, all I did was fight to keep you okay, safe. I was worried about you going off the rails and binging, ’cause you were drinking. I wanted you to not – I wanted you to be okay for your press. I wanted you to stay in the room, not to fight but just even to go in the other room, so you weren’t downstairs drinking until five. It was not a mutual – that was – a lot of our fights are 50-50 –

JD: [noise of skepticism]

AH: And some of them are me. This one – those Toronto fights – I spent the whole time telling you that I love you and trying to get you to calm down and keep you safe: “Stop, let’s not do this, look at the bigger picture, I love you, look at the picture.” And that train had f**king left. And there is no excuse for it. You wanna make excuses, I know.

JD: For what?

AH: It’s your instinct to make an excuse to allow yourself to go off the rails. There’s no excuse for just –

JD: What are you talking about, Toronto?

AH: Yeah.

JD: [0:15:00] The – there’s no excuse for either of us being the way – getting the way we get. Being that f**king – allowing ourselves to get to such a degree, or such a f**king heated arena. There’s no f**king reason in the world for it. It’s dumb, it’s dumb, it’s stupid, and it’s f**king dumb. But you know, your memory of Toronto is what it is. And yeah, I said some really f**king nasty things to you. And those nasty things have been building up. And those nasty things had been building up from a prior argument, just like your s**t had been building up. On the plane, I thought, “this is it, we’re dead, after the plane we’re f**king dead.” I don’t know how to look at her anymore, I don’t know how to feel anymore, I don’t know how. Again, what you think of an argument where you didn’t say s**t, I mean again I’m sorry but, there were people out the door – right outside the door who heard everything.

AH: In Toronto? Is that what we’re talking about?

JD: Yeah.

AH: Then get them in the room right now, the mystery help that you keep referencing, and you have them sit in front of me. I want to have them tell me what I said to you, because still I have yet to hear one thing. I called you “spineless” at the end of one fight, and I called you a “coward”. No, I said “spineless” and “p***y”. Those were two names that I called you, and I told you what you were doing was spineless, and I called you a p***y, and I said I was sorry and I meant it. But it was at the end of a fight. I had been f**king provoked to no end, prodded, poked, kicked, I had heard every nasty thing you could think of saying to a woman, before that comment came out. And, I still had the strength afterwards to say “Let’s not do this, please, let’s look at the bigger picture, we love each other, let’s skip all the steps where we say all the hurtful things, stop.” And I said that the whole time. So whoever you’re f**king talking about, put the f**king reference in. Be f**king fair, fight fair, get them in here right now, I wanna f**king see them, look them in the eye and hear them tell me, in front of me, in front of you, what I f**king said in Toronto, ’cause I didn’t say a f**king thing. I didn’t do anything in Toronto. I f**king held it together that whole time. I am sorry I called you a p***y, and your actions were spineless, and I am sorry I said that. I’m really sorry I said that. I shouldn’t have stooped to that level. But I had said –

JD: What actions of mine were spineless?

AH: You had said you wanted to get a room at the beginning of a fight.

JD: No I didn’t.

AH: Well, then I don’t remember what it was. But it was all the s**t that led up to that. It was at the end of that second fight. And I am sorry I called you that name. But how much it’s hurt you, and how much you’ve talked about it, and how much you’ve complained about that affecting you, and how much that you’ve carried that, magnify that by a thousand. Well, being literal, 200. Magnify that. You’re focused on one thing you got called? Imagine being called 20,000 more things. And not just called names. Being looked at and said the most hurtful ugly things I’ve ever been told ever in my life, on top of being called those names. While you’re saying to someone “I love you!” I was actually saying to you, that last fight, all I was saying is “Come back, let’s not do this, I love you.” I even sat down, and you were like “F**k you, you’re f**king ugly, I can’t look at you.” And I said “I love you.” “I f**king hate you.” “I love you.” And I actually did that!

JD: You did.

AH: I – that was the fight! I got mad at something that I would get mad about now! It was rude and inconsiderate, and instead of me being able to just say “That hurt me”, you have a f**king – you know, the ego is so offended that all you have to do is lash out at me, hurt me, call me names to try and defend yourself, ’cause heaven forbid you did something rude. Which is, you know, human! You know, it was human. You could have just said sorry and I would have felt better. And that’s all, ’cause we’re good people, trying and struggling so hard to live with each other.

JD: What was the fight about?

AH: Remember, it started because you didn’t – we had gotten comfortable, I’d gotten my pyjamas started, I took my hair out, I started taking my makeup off, we ordered pizza, ordered a movie, my mom was coming up to the room, we’re curled up on the couch – and then you decided, THEN you decided to tell someone, me in this case, that you wanted to go to a party. [0:20:00] And I had no – and I did say – I started by saying “I don’t want to go, let’s not do that.” And then I said “Wait, what the f**k? I have already taken off my makeup, f**k, my dress, my heels, my hair… Why didn’t you tell me?”

JD: Your makeup was still on.

AH: I had started to take it off – I took off my lipstick. I said “Why didn’t you tell me before?” I’m in my pyjamas at this point. Why didn’t you tell me before? We had ordered a movie, we talked about our night, we actually talked about doing… That’s how it started, and after that moment, I came back, and I got my dress on, got my shoes on, put my hair back up, and I said “let’s go to the party”, you know. And you were so obstinate and adamant and stubborn and – I don’t know what it was you, from that moment on, did nothing but insult and hurt me.

JD: Could it have been that I was a bit prodded by your lack of planning to get dressed again?

AH: I was prodded by your lack of telling me. Don’t you see, there’s always a thing that you can just rely on that, and not take any responsibility for your s**t. That’s no excuse. You felt prodded, yeah so did I! I felt prodded about you telling me after the fact that we were gonna go to a party, after we had already talked about our night, we even ordered pizza, we f**king were queueing up a movie, we told my mom. Even security was like “what?” They didn’t know, no one knew that you were going! And you didn’t tell anybody, and you don’t think I felt prodded? I felt prodded.

JD: Wasn’t that the one [inaudible]?

AH: No, it was the party for – it was the after party for [inaudible].

JD: Oh right. No, we went to that.

AH: No we didn’t.

JD: The dinner thing.

AH: We didn’t go. That was something else. We didn’t go that night.

JD: We went to a dinner thing where Terry Gilliam was.

AH: That was different, that was Venice, Terry Gilliam.

JD: I’m sorry.

AH: I felt prodded. I don’t want to sit here and fight about Toronto, and I really think it’s f**ked up that we fight about old fights over, and over, and over, and over again. I did tell you I would let that s**t go. And I’m sorry that I spent 5 minutes of your mornings ending in a bad way, but we didn’t talk for more than 10. I did not make you late. You have a late problem, it’s a fact.

JD: I do, and I admit to that. But it was a half hour.

AH: It’s not – That was not because of me. You putting off talking to me until you were already a half hour late. In fact, every time we talked, you were telling me, you were already late. So don’t – it’s not on me. And I buried it, the whole f**king week.

JD: I said “I’m late” and then I put my guitar, and my bag, and everything else was out the door.

AH: I buried it. And your wife didn’t take more than 5 seconds, more than 10 minutes of your time, on all those mornings. And I understood that you had something very important going on and I wanted to support you. But I was dying, on the inside, dying. I have never felt so depressed about our situation ever. I have had resolve before, I have walked away from you drunk and f**ked up and things that are like – But Toronto was like the plane, the plane where you kicked me, it was so bad and so unprovoked.

JD: Wait. Wait.

AH: Sorry.

JD: The plane when I kicked you. You can’t just reference it like, with “the plane that I kicked you”.

AH: You know the plane I’m talking about, right? Like, the one from a long time ago.

JD: It’s on the tape recorder. If you’re gonna say I kicked you, you’ll say everything else you did.

AH: On the plane that I’m talking about, is the plane from Boston. I did nothing to you. Everyone will attest, everyone will back that up, I did nothing to you that time. You were just – you were f**ked up. We were both f**ked. I’m talking about a long time ago. That was the only time in my relationship with you – remember, I went back to New York – that I felt so unsure about us. It was after Toronto. And I sat on that all week, and cried every f**king day.

JD: It was after Toronto? When? This Toronto, I didn’t kick you on the f**king plane.

AH: I know, I said that was the only time in our relationship that I felt like this. And I’m sorry I took a few minutes of your time in LA when you were getting ready for rehearsals, but I was trying desperately to figure out if I could recover. If there could be love again, that had been murdered. [0:25:00] I couldn’t. It was a tough week.

JD: Do you understand, I’ve gone through the same exact f**king thing?

AH: You have certainly not gone through this. I have certainly never looked at you and said some of these things to you.

JD: Don’t say that.

AH: I have never told you I didn’t love you.

JD: Yes you have.

AH: I did never. I’ve never told you I was falling out of love with you. I never told you – and also, we’d made promises. F**k, never mind, you’ll just defend yourself, I’m only pointing out some of the things you did.

JD: I’m not defending myself, I’m just –

AH: At this point, it bounces right back at me.

JD: Babe, I’m not defending myself. You wanted me to say when I feel something – you know, when I feel, you know I wanna say something to you, that it was okay. That’s the promise you gave me a little while ago. I’m telling you, if you lost memory last night of kicking me out the door with the f**ker hitting me—

AH: Again, I’m sorry.

JD: And your memory is gone from you kicking the bathroom door and hitting me in the skull –

AH: Again, I am sorry.

JD: Wait! If you have those memory divits—

AH: I was upset, there was a lot going on and I was on an Ambien! Why are you obsessing over the fact that I can’t remember it the way you remembered it? I said I was sorry, I didn’t deny it.

JD: Okay, I’m not talking about that. What I want to get to is that you say to me, f**king unquestionably, like impenetrably, you never said “I don’t want to f**king be with you. I’m not in love with you anymore.”

AH: “I’m falling out of love with you. Falling out of love with you.”

JD: It was dark, man.

[AH makes a noise of skepticism.]

JD: It was a dark moment.

AH: Look, I let it go, I meant it. My mom said, I have gotta f**king forgive you or not, and I’ve gotta forgive you if I wanna be with you. Got to forgive you.

JD: I’ve gotta forgive you, if I wanna be with you.

AH: Yes, it’s not solo. I’m just saying what I – I made a choice to let it go, and to forgive you and I meant it. And I’m sorry that it’s coming up now. It really should not come up. It really should not be something that we keep using in fights. It doesn’t help us. It doesn’t help understanding, to point out old fights. It doesn’t do anything but cause the other one to retreat and defend. So I’m sorry—

JD: If you listen to your tape back, it’ll be you that brings up the Toronto s**t, more than me.

AH: You’re right. I brought it up and I’m sorry, that’s why I’m saying this. I was trying to defend myself from this whole thing about, like, me taking your time while you were rehearsing. And I took no time, and suffered by myself, and really sat on that and didn’t – it wasn’t right. You asked me every morning, “what the f**k is going on?” And I wasn’t right, wasn’t okay, it was not okay. And we talked about it on Whitney’s birthday that night, and you promised never to go there again. It’s not even really okay now, I mean so far. Is that wrong?

JD: Look, yeah, as far as Whitney’s party, and I promised never to go there again and all that s**t, yeah I did.

AH: Alright, sorry.

JD: But the time thing’s just—

AH: Look, you see it differently. I felt like I took five minutes of your time and you felt like I took thirty minutes, and it’s probably somewhere in between, to be honest. Okay, so re-obsessing over it, is fighting for nothing. You’ve got to be able to – you’ve got to be able to hear what I need. And when you do something wrong, it cannot be impossible, ever, to say to you – to hold you responsible. I hold you responsible, and I know no one else does.

JD: When I do something wrong that affects you in a wrong way.

AH: Well, we have to live together.

JD: Yes.

AH: Everyone else gets to go home.

JD: That’s the first time you’ve said “we”.

AH: Pardon?

JD: That’s practically the first time you’ve said “we”.

AH: We have to live together. And I have said “we” a lot, by the way, in this conversation. We have to live together. And we both have quirks, and corners. Maybe you remember me saying this earlier. We both have s**t that we need to – puzzle pieces we need to carve out to make – to fit with the other, you know, to fit a life with someone. Sometimes we both forget. [0:30:00] Sometimes I think we are hurt and don’t know what to do with it, we don’t have an outlet for it. We’re still holding on to it, we’re not admitting we’re holding onto it. Still kind of hate the other one for the things we’ve said too, you know. And we don’t let it go and then it comes up, a fight comes up instigated by the same patterns, you know. Me getting mad at you about something, you getting mad at me about something, and then all this s**t comes out from old fights. I mean, why can’t we just, like, be humble enough to say “oh s**t I’m sorry”, when we’ve f**ked up? Why is it like this?

JD: I don’t know how to answer that question. I mean I – I’d love to be. If I’m not being that, then I would love to be.

AH: It takes humility, and I know I’m the only person that holds you accountable with it in your life in an overt way. But if you’re late, or you f**k off and you ignore me, and I’m waiting on you, it’s rude and it makes me feel bad, and I have to be able to say it. I mean yesterday, I’m really sorry for how I reacted but, that was me not knowing how to f**king have a normal fight without being – that could have been normal. It’s like, that’s normal, you know, like a normal couple thing. It could have been small, like you said earlier.

JD: It could have been two seconds.

AH: Yes. But me not imagining that you could give it that, or allow it to be, made me – I took an Ambien so I wouldn’t be – so I’d fall asleep before I’d be touched by you and have to f**king confront it. I tried to, you know, read and calm down. I tried to not talk about it because I just could not imagine it working, where you could just hear it and say “I’m sorry” and also know that that’s an issue you have. I couldn’t imagine it. And so it came out really bad, it came out poorly, I handled it poorly. By the time we talked, I was already seething.

JD: Hmm.

AH: And then I reacted like a person that has been hurt over many many fights, and holding on to probably some things without knowing it, and I reacted because I thought: “F**k it. I don’t want Toronto. I don’t want to be the person that sits here and says “I love you”, while someone’s looking you in the eye and telling you that no one likes you, and they don’t like you anymore, and they don’t love you, and you’re ugly and all this s**t. I didn’t want to be the one that did that. I didn’t want to take the high road. I wanna always – I want us to both love. And I feel like one of us f**king can’t do it. We need to both do it. Otherwise one of us is just getting f**king hurt, like in Toronto I was a f**king punching bag. I mean, I just heard every mean thing. And all I was doing, I was saying “stop”! And I got so f**ked up.

JD: I understand.

AH: I don’t—

JD: Toronto to you, was the plane ride for me. And you’re not gonna unhear that s**t. You’ll forgive me for it, if you can. But you’ll never unhear that. And I’ll never unhear the s**t I heard. So, ultimately is that s**t important? No, in the big picture we should be figuring it out, we should find a way. And we do both need to work on it. I’m not saying I don’t. We both need to work on it.

AH: So there’s no accountability, no stability, no rules, when we got married for that reason. We got married so we’d have, like, stability! So the f**king relationship wasn’t on the line every time.

JD: Look, I didn’t kick you out of bed last night.

AH: I did. I’m sorry for it.

JD: Okay, but you know what I’m saying?

AH: Yes, I do know what you’re saying. But it doesn’t happen in a vacuum. It’s the result of conditioning, of fights, over and over and over again, that do things, that make us react the way we react.

JD: Indeed.

AH: So, where do we stop? Where do we stop it?

JD: We’ll go see a counselor.

AH: And do you imagine your life without me? Could you?

JD: I mean, no, of course not. Why would I have married you? [0:35:00] No, I love you. I told you that, the first second you came in, you said you love me, I said I love you. Because I do. But it can’t go on this way. Not for you, and not for me.

AH: I agree.

JD: It can’t go on this way.

AH: I agree. I agree.

JD: ’Cause it’s just gonna build and build and build, and if there’s any more physical violence, that’s it.

AH: I agree, I agree, I agree.

JD: So I’ll check on counselors, man. We need to see somebody. If that’s what needs to be done, I’ll do it.

AH: I just don’t know if you – I wanna talk to that Amy person but – I’m worried that you don’t control yourself when you get mad, you just take off. And I’m worried that on Skype, it’s not like we’re gonna be in a room, and you’re just gonna f**king walk away if you don’t like it.

JD: It’s not about me liking, you know, these horrible truths. I don’t like them now. And I’m not walking away to –

AH: Mm-hm, true.

JD: What I’m concerned with is the truth, getting it. There’s no f**king way – if you change a story, or if I change a story, there’s no point in us seeing a f**king shrink. That’s a f**king mistake.

AH: I see someone regularly. Nobody knows that better than me. There is no point in lying to a therapist, or to a counselor or whatever. I know you have in your mind, like, that I’ll go tell to Cowan just to hear myself, or for validation. That’s the opposite of what I do. What I value in people, and why I don’t want people around me that need me more than I need them, or that work for me. I had this breakdown before I even met you, about realizing that everyone around me was in some sort of need, and I wasn’t being able to get honest feedback. Aside from Whitney you know – it’s just different, Whitney never holds back. Anyway, but that’s part of why I value having people around me that are gonna be honest with me, and that don’t need me. That’s how you get something from someone. That’s the value. That’s the goal, is people can hold you accountable, people can hold up a mirror, people can be honest with you.

JD: Absolutely.

AH: And I feel not safe enough to do that because I don’t know what you’re gonna do. You’re gonna take off and run and not – It’s getting really hard to sit there and get something from a counselor when I feel like I can’t actually –

JD: Well, you can’t predict the future.

AH: No I can’t. No, I can’t. But we need help, and if we don’t change, we won’t survive. And I love you and I want my life with you. But – I know we both get mad and we lose our s**t, but there has to be some sort of thing that you follow, some rules, some guidelines. Both of us, both of us, you know?

JD: I don’t disagree at all.

AH: Promise it. I feel like I really want you to keep your promises.

JD: No you don’t.

AH: Huh?

JD: I mean, I keep my promises. Maybe I’m late, maybe I’m flaky, whatever, but –

AH: I’m not talking about that.

JD: What promises?

AH: I just want you to keep your promises. So when you say—

JD: I want you to keep your promises too.

AH: I know you do. I know you do. We need help, and we – I – we have to promise each other to do this. Don’t you think?

JD: Yeah.

AH: I mean maybe I’m wrong, but I just think that we could use some things like that.

JD: No, I promise you this. I promise you this. If we go to a therapist, couples therapist or marriage whatever counselor, we go there. [0:40:00] I promise you absolute unabashed straight-up honesty. And please, please, ’cause you gotta be f**king really strong to do that and not, not let the ego ebb at you. Please be a thousand percent honest. I don’t care what it’s about.

AH: [laughs] I will be.

JD: Please.

AH: That’s easy. It’s easy to be honest. And I’m very honest. I know you don’t have a lot of people around you that confront you, ever. But you and I are two different human beings, different consciousness, right. So, you are going to remember something differently. And I can insult you, and I insult your character. I call you a “p***y”, because you don’t conform to seeing it my way, so you must be a liar. That just makes you feel bad.

JD: I was a p***y – it was also that, you know, I was a p***y because I didn’t take care of the Arabic person who tried to touch you in the f**king elevator and –

AH: Tried?

JD: You told me he didn’t touch you? He f**king—

AH: Yes, I told you he touched me. I told you he grabbed me. I told you he tried to kiss me. I told you he kissed me all over my hands and arms and head—

JD: Yeah yeah, I know.

AH: And he grabbed me, and grabbed my arm, and tried – oh, that’s significantly touching you – grabbed my waist, my stomach. I mean, that’s touching me. And I told you that. That’s honest. That’s honest.

JD: Well I didn’t know it went on to that degree.

AH: I did tell you that!

JD: Okay, okay. Alright, don’t freak out.

AH: But you remember different things, so that’s different. I don’t have to call you a liar.

JD: It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter. I went through all kinds of s**t—

AH: Yet I get s**t for being called, I mean calling you a “p***y”, yet you call me a “liar” all the time.

JD: No, can I finish my sentence? I went through all kinds of s**t, to try to find the f**king guy.

AH: Good. Good.

JD: I went back to his f**king room. I got his f**king name. I know how to find him if need be.

AH: Okay, cool.

JD: And you, you know, you said that I f**king—

AH: Did I – did I –?

JD: … didn’t even take care of it ’cause I’m a f**king p***y and a liar and this and that.

AH: I called you the name that you were calling me. You were calling me a liar, and I called it right back to you. And I did call you “p***y”. Again, I said I was sorry for calling you “p***y”. I called you one name. For every time you heard “p***y”, I heard a thousand – Every time you heard that, I heard 15 insults from “whore” to “liar”. From “whore” to “liar”.

JD: “Spineless”, “weak”, “coward”…

AH: From whore to liar. I did not call you that in Toronto. No I did not, I did not call you a coward.

JD: You have the tapes, let’s listen.

AH: Yes. I will. I did not call you that in Toronto. I have called you that before. But for every thing, every time you heard “p***y” – which you’re so obsessed that you got called, and I’m so sorry, that must be so tough that you got called that one name – I heard a thousand. So it makes me a little, mmm – annoyed.

JD: A thousand’s probably – don’t you think that’s probably a little bit of an exaggeration?

AH: To say the least. Annoyed, to say the least.

JD: Is a thousand an exaggeration?

AH: To hear continue to complain about being called that one name, when you called me roughly –fifty.

JD: Fifty?

AH: Yes. So being honest – stop, it’s annoying me.

JD: It’s annoying you?

AH: It’s terribly annoying, you’re holding one thing when you called me a liar. And you were –

JD: This is called honesty, and you are there taking offense. How’s that gonna be with a marriage counselor? You’re worried about me walking away? Well, what are you doing?

AH: Me? I’m sorry if I’m getting angry, I’m sorry.

JD: You wanna try it, or—?

AH: Did I not just say “sorry” for getting angry? That’s trying and you know it.

JD: You’ve said sorry fifteen times, for getting angry.

AH: You wanna insult me for being and saying sorry – you use it against me in every fight when I do – and yet then you also say I don’t do anything wrong and I can’t be wrong. Yet you – you don’t think that’s a little counterproductive, to yell both things at me? To insult me with both things? You wanna insult me for saying sorry, now, too much?

JD: No.

AH: Well I thought if we’re talking to each other, and we’re being honest and trying to be humble, I thought that’s kind of like a good thing to do, if you feel it, you know, to be taking care of the other person. [0:45:00] I’m trying to take care of your feelings by saying sorry. That’s care.

JD: With an aggressive—

AH: And you’re not!

JD: In an aggressive way.

AH: No, I did not say sorry in an aggressive way. That’s not true.

JD: What led up to it?

AH: I don’t know what led up to it. But I did—

JD: The conversation we just had.

AH: I said sorry, and I meant it, and then you wanted to use it against me, and then rub my nose in it which is something you do all the time.

JD: No. “Sorry” –

AH: Would you like to end our conversation now? Because it’s clearly not going anywhere.

JD: If you wanna end the conversation, end the conversation. Here’s what I’m saying.

AH: What?

JD: “Sorry”, when you hear it all the time –

AH: Then I won’t say it anymore.

JD: “Sorry” becomes – it almost has no meaning.

AH: Right, whatever. Then I won’t say it anymore.

JD: You’re getting defensive. You’re picking out things to f**king hit back with in your own way, right now. So what are you gonna be like with a counselor? Is it like, is that a dream, am I dreaming, or is that just something that you’d like to do but, you worry about me running away? But yeah you’re the one who gets heated up.

AH: We both get heated.

JD: I was not heated just now.

AH: No, you were, just now.

JD: I haven’t been heated the majority of this conversation.

AH: Oh, good.

JD: I don’t want this. If you love me, you’ll try. If I love you, I’ll try. I mean, if you love me, you’ll try. If I love you, I’ll try. That’s the f**king best we can give at the moment.

AH: Yeah, let’s just see what happens.

JD: You can be fatalistic about it if you want. Let’s also take the time.

AH: I didn’t mean to be, I just feel stupid for trying to be earnest. It’s like any time I am, it’s like you’re a f**king animal. You know, like you f**king smell weakness. And as soon as I am humble or earnest and go “okay, I’m sorry” or whatever, that’s when you get f**king – you know, you get something from it. And then you start going mean and you start saying insulting things.

JD: I’m not being mean.

AH: And then you start really – you can’t resist rubbing someone’s nose in it once they say “Sorry I did that.” You just can’t. It’s like a scab you can’t help but pick. You’ve gotta like – it’s like you get something from it. So, I won’t say sorry anymore. I won’t be earnest anymore. Like, I was trying to be humble, I thought it would work for us, because ego pompous f**king attitudes don’t really work so well for us. So I was actually trying to say “Sorry, you’re right, sorry, I was wrong, sorry.” And what do I get for it?

JD: Well I said, sorry becomes just a go-to sort of thing to fix, to patch it up, to band-aid it.

AH: Heaven forbid I should try to band-aid this.

JD: That becomes almost meaningless.

AH: Yeah, seems really meaningless to try to fix something that’s broken. [laughs] That’s really meaningless, huh? Heavens forbid I try to fix it!

JD: I’m just saying, it has no meaning.

AH: Who says I don’t mean them? Only you? Only you. So you know how I feel, how I think. You know better, and you wanna tell me you’re trying to be earnest, and humble? Are you trying at all to be earnest and humble and real, and earnest? Have you ever tried that? In a fight when you’re hurt? When you’re angry, have you ever just tried to be stronger than that s**t and just be earnest?

JD: What do you think I’ve been doing, this whole time? Is that insulting?

AH: Heaven forbid I try to put a band-aid. Don’t you f**king give me s**t about saying sorry, as if that is a bad thing. As if band-aids are a bad f**king thing. You know what we need? [0:50:00] We need that, we need humility. We need f**king humility, we need to be able to say sorry to each other.

JD: Let me tell you something. If you remember – it couldn’t even have been two weeks ago – we had a talk when I said to you: “Listen. I feel like I keep saying I’m sorry. I’ve said I’m sorry for everything. I’ve been saying that since I was a kid.” Just to f**king get through this s**t, “I’m sorry, I’m sorry, I’m sorry, I’m sorry”. Even if sometimes you don’t feel like you did anything wrong, you just say “I’m sorry”, to f**king quash it, to quell it, you know?

AH: Mm-hm, mm-hm, mm-hm.

JD: So I’m not haranguing you, or attacking you. I’m just explaining to you, to me, from my perspective. It’s not just your sorrys. It’s my sorrys too. ’Cause they happen a lot, ’cause we fight a lot. So if it’s always just, “I’m sorry”. Hell, “I love you” can be said equally with the mouth, but you gotta see what’s happening inside. You’ve gotta be able to look into those eyes. You’ve gotta be able to feel it. But that’s all I’m saying, I was not attacking you. As a matter of fact, look, that’s for both of us. That’s for both of us. ’Cause I don’t want to have to say “I’m sorry”, if I feel like I didn’t do anything. I don’t want to have say “I’m sorry” all the time because –

AH: Then don’t. Then don’t, don’t say you’re sorry. That’s what we need. We need a real grown-up relationship, where we don’t have to say sorry to each other, when we hurt the other. That’s gonna fix this! Out of all the f**king things you take from this, what you really walk away with, is that?

JD: No. No. No. Listen to me, please. What I’m saying is, “I’m sorry” doesn’t need to be tossed around like it’s the only thing that’s gonna get us out of this. That’s not going to deal with—

AH: Who said it was the only thing that’s gonna get us out of this? Who said it’s as simple as a sorry? Who said that’s all we’re gonna do?

JD: I think we have to be honest. The “sorry” can come later. Explain yourself, I’ll explain myself. And say look, I feel f**ked over about this, or I feel bummed about this. You say, “okay but that was really rude”, whatever, blah blah blah. Then –

AH: You’ll freak out.

JD: It’ll be different in the future.

AH: You’re right. Last night? I couldn’t have said anything. I wish I could. Impossible. You would have f**king attacked me, you would have f**king defended it, attacked me. The only thing that really – you would never have thought – this is kind of s**tty to me – no one holds you accountable, you don’t hold yourself accountable, you never ever do. You wanna complain about having said sorry too much, yet I actually feel like you attack more than you say sorry. And if you ever have to say sorry, you f**king lose it. I don’t know what this obsession is about not saying sorry, but if this is your ego talking, then protect your ego, be with yourself! But that just seems like ego to me.

JD: Then it’s my fault, my fault again.

AH: What would have really been great yesterday is a sorry. And so if your big point is that we shouldn’t have to say it and shouldn’t say it, it’s like, how’s that gonna help us? Yesterday, you would have never thought “I’m really sorry”. But yet – if you had actually tried to change how you saw, change your perspective and thought “I want to take care of this person and not this person” – if you had thought that, you would have said sorry. You might not have had the instinct to think that I was right, but now in retrospect you know that I was right, and you that I had the right complaint – that it was fair.

JD: I walked into the room saying “godd**n f**king Issac—”

AH: That’s not sorry. There’s a difference.

JD: Was I – was I being aggressive with it?

AH: There’s a difference. It’s not a sorry. There’s a difference. One cares for me, the other is you.

JD: What I’m saying is—

AH: If we need less of that in our relationship, then you and I are totally talking different languages, and this is a waste.

JD: No. “I’m sorry” is an after-the-fact thing. Explain ourselves honestly and to the point, without freaking out. [0:55:00] And then I understand, more, of what you’re really upset about – and then, I can say, f**k, I’m sorry, now I really understand. But had I said sorry last night, you weren’t gonna – I mean, I’d put f**king dollars to donuts – you weren’t gonna turn around and say “oh that’s okay baby, I understand”. For sure not.

AH: I could have.

JD: I’m saying if I was at the track, I wouldn’t be putting all my money on that.

AH: But you should try it once. You don’t ever act like you’re humble, you’re always defensive, you’re always—

JD: What did you say about me earlier? You said I was the most kind-hearted, caring—

AH: Kind-hearted. That’s if you’re not wrong, and if you haven’t done something wrong. You have this bad boy complex, like a mom-bad-boy complex. As soon as you feel like you’ve f**ked up, you’re – I’ve never seen anything like it.

JD: You can include your dad in that too, ’cause he got you pretty good as well.

AH: It’s like this – this allergy – to doing anything wrong, if you are seen in a bad light. And I’m not even saying you’re a bad boy, I’m not saying that.

JD: It’s not about being in the wrong, it’s about being f**ked with.

AH: Yeah, but I’m not f**king with you by saying: “We’re married. I’ve been waiting for you and you’ve been a long time, and you could just let me know to protect me, whatever.” That’s not being f**ked with, but you see it that way. That’s the real issue. That’s the big picture issue.

JD: That’s – that’s not – that is not the way it was approached by you last night. It wasn’t.

AH: I didn’t approach you last night like that. Because I can’t approach it. If I ever say these things to you, you immediately – like, this is what I’m talking about – you go into this ego-driven, protect your own self, defend yourself, I didn’t do anything wrong, f**k you, I’m tired of being wrong all the time! I hate this kind of thing!

JD: And that’s what you were doing as well.

AH: Yeah.

JD: That’s exactly what you were doing as well. That’s what you were doing.

AH: Oh yeah.

JD: It’s true. It’s f**king true. You were protecting your ego—

AH: Alright. Oh yeah, I was. I actually was protecting my ego. I told you why. I told why I did that. I didn’t want to do that. I didn’t want to internalize it and be f**ked over and try to fall asleep desperately. Just force yourself to sleep so you don’t confront the person you’re supposed to be friends with, for fear of your knowledge of them not actually saying “I care about you, I’m sorry to you, for not giving a f**k about your feelings.” And only caring about themselves and whether they’re right or wrong – whether they’re right, specifically, not a bad boy, they’re not a f**kup, so they can’t do anything wrong, “how dare you f**king criticize me?”

JD: It’s always like that?

AH: I can’t ever – You want honesty, but then when I’m honest with you and say, like, “What, you wanna party now? Why didn’t you tell me? That’s f**king rude!” I can’t be mad. I can’t. I can’t get mad at you. You can’t do anything wrong. I mean, it’s just…

[No talking for 7 minutes, until 1:04:43.]

JD: What do you want me to do?

AH: [1:05:00] What was I saying? Obviously, what I want is, um… security, safety. I want some boundaries. I want them back, the ones I’ve destroyed and the ones you’ve destroyed, the one’s we’ve destroyed. I want trust. I want to know the marriage is sacred. I want a few things.

JD: Marriage is scared.

AH: I know. And I want to make promises to the other. Listen, I want promises ’cause I need the safety, I need security. I need the safety back. I used to feel so safe with you. You know, you have clumsy phases and sometimes I can feel so safe. You know, it’s like you wrote in that song.

JD: Mm.

AH: You have stripped me down and shaved my head, and I’ve done the same probably to you, you would say, right? And now we’re both here, and I want – I want some of the safety back. I want to make a commitment again, and I want to have a reason to honour it, you know. Like, there’s no point in honouring it if you think the other one’s just gonna f**king take off and throw their ring at you, you know. There’s no point in keeping a boundary if you think you’re gonna be hit or if they’re gonna just f**king run – you know, either way. For this to work, I want – for me, I want to make promises to each other and keep them. And I wanna get help, to know how we fight, I mean to get help fighting. I think it’s always bigger issues, and we don’t have the ability to bring it up safely with you ever. I want you to always be honest with me. I want you to always be honest with me. And I wanna be able to take criticism, and help make myself be somebody that fits in your life the same way as I want you want to fit in my life. You know, what I was saying in Brazil about coming back for the test is just, I want to be as important to you as you are to me, and sometimes it’s inconvenient to fly when you wanna leave. I don’t like flying in the middle of the night, but I do it, you know. Sometimes it’s inconvenient I’m missing work or I’m missing this. I mean, look at me, I haven’t worked since February. I did press tours, but—

JD: You’ve got, like, five movies coming out.

AH: No, just one, Danish Girl. The thing is, I have – it’s inconvenient but I do it because I love you and I wanted you and I want to make my life fit into yours. What I was saying on the plane was just like “hey, can you motivate, to make this not stressful for me?” And that didn’t happen. And then when the plane was two and a half hours late, out of your control, and then the car was two hours late, out of your control, it really – I barely got there in time and didn’t have time to shower, do any of the things that were comfortable, that I needed to feel comfortable and okay and calm and safe. I didn’t have that, not –

JD: I got you a hotel.

AH: Yes you did, and you helped with my lines, and then that last day, you were wonderful. Once we were on the plane, you were so supportive. The problem is, it would have meant lots to me to have an hour shaved off the time we spent in the party or whatever. I didn’t want to take the event from you, I didn’t want to take the after-party from you. I have been a hundred percent on your arm and at your side. But I just wanted a little compromise. A little “okay, f**k, it’s annoying but let’s go a little earlier” – or whatever. And you did end up coming through, but it was so late! It was too late. Like, we literally left – we didn’t leave any time for f**kups, like out-of-our-control f**kups. We didn’t leave time for that. And all I was saying – it wasn’t a criticism, it wasn’t even a thing – I was saying “I just wanna know that I’m – that that’s not, like a reflection of me being not important.” [1:10:00] It’s insecurity, I even blamed it on me, I said it’s insecurity but I wanna know. Sorry, I’m talking about a specific fight, I’m sorry, I’m sorry.

JD: [inaudible]

AH: I wanna get help and learn how to fight about these things, so we’re gonna not fighting over the same s**t over and over again.

JD: I know. I know.

AH: And I want us to make promises to each other, that we can keep boundaries.

JD: Don’t. Look, I didn’t say “divorce” last night.

AH: No, you didn’t.

JD: I did not say “divorce” last night.

AH: No, you did not.

JD: You said “divorce” last night.

AH: I said “leave”, yeah.

JD: No, you said “divorce”. You actually said the word “divorce”. I’m sorry.

AH: I’m sorry I don’t remember every—

JD: I just want to be honest.

AH: I’m not being dishonest! That’s where you need to slow down. You don’t have to attack my character, just ’cause I didn’t remember one word.

JD: I was not attacking your character.

AH: Insinuating I’m not honest is an insult to my character.

JD: No, I said “I’m sorry, I just want to be honest.” You didn’t remember saying that. I’m not saying you’re a liar. I said that you said –

AH: Well, what does honesty have to do with it? Why are you insinuating I’m not being honest? I want you to be – oh you mean, being honest with me.

JD: I just – yeah, I want to be honest.

AH: Okay, okay. I want you to be honest.

JD: And I want to be honest with the f**king strength with which you are.

AH: If you wanna do this marriage thing, if you wanna make this work, if you want me in your life, then we do, we have to see somebody, we have to get help.

JD: I’m not disagreeing with you. I absolutely agree. But you do have to see, like, all I was saying is “I want to be honest.” And then you jumped and said, I’m calling you dishonest. That was not the case.

AH: Okay! Alright. I get it. I’m glad you explained. It sounded like you were insinuating I wasn’t. Thank you for explaining.

JD: Sure. That’s how s**t starts, you know. I did that to you, you did that to me.

AH: Well that did happen, and we handled it okay.

JD: Yeah of course, we got through. We’ve gotten through worse. We have gotten through worse when we’re about to start f**king start get crazy and we talked ourselves down. I don’t want anything but that, with us. I want – I want your friendship. I want us to be happy, I want us to love each other at all times. Of course there’s gonna be fights here and there, but we don’t ever need to go where we’ve gone, again. It really just won’t [inaudible]. And I’d love to put everything behind us and just start out afresh with you, as better people, as more understanding people, so that we do have a shot of making it, of staying together.

[No talking for 4 minutes, until 1:17:27.]

AH: I’ve got some water, if you want it.

JD: Thank you. I’ll call Dr Kipper, and ask him about someone.

AH: I have someone, a good doctor that I reached out to.

JD: Who? Not someone we’ve been to before?

AH: No, no, someone better, just someone that came recommended. And we could also take suggestions from Kipper. But there’s also that Amy Banks lady who wrote the most dynamic book on the chemical workings of the brain and how it affects people in a relationship.

JD: I know, but that’s –

AH: The expert is not here.

JD: Uh, it might be, I don’t know.

AH: I’m not talking about the book.

JD: Oh.

AH: I’m just saying your reservations about her are because she’s—

JD: Oh – not necessarily reservations. I just didn’t get the feeling that she was interested in doing that when I spoke to her.

AH: No, no, she absolutely—

JD: She liked us separately. She wanted to speak to us separately.

AH: She wanted to get to know us. She asked specifically, do you want this to be—

JD: Well then, let’s choose her, let’s f**king—

AH: We need somebody in person. [1:20:00] That’s what I’m saying.

JD: Oh, you think we need someone in person?

AH: Don’t you?

JD: I would think so, yeah, but I mean that lady Amy, Amy Banks, we both trust her, and you read her book. You know, we could get a f**king Skype or whatever on a f**king stream with her like that. It wouldn’t be so bad, though talking to a computer screen could be a little, you know, distracting.

[No talking for 1.5 minutes, until 1:22:10.]

AH: I came over here to tell you I loved you.

JD: Sorry?

AH: I came here to tell you I love you.

JD: Oh, me too. I love you too. I love you more than anything in the world. And you know, I told you this, the last f**king thing that I want to do in this world is let a woman down. And it feels to me like I do it all the time. It’s a horrible feeling.

AH: I’m sorry you feel horrible all the time.

JD: I don’t feel horrible all the time.

AH: Don’t.

JD: Did I just say that?

AH: Well you said, you feel like that all the time. That you f**k up all the time.

JD: I’m sorry, I just meant a lot of the time, I’m sorry. The last thing I want to do is let you down. And it just seems like I do more than –

AH: More what?

JD: More than should be normal, I think.

AH: You just can’t be wrong, or normally like can’t do anything – I can’t tell you. We’re two people trying to fit together, our lives are trying to fit together. And if you do something, and you don’t ever change it, like being f**king in your own world and then not realizing, because you’re absent-minded, that two hours have passed since I was waiting on you. That s**t is something you do all – you do it very often. And if you never change it, of course I’m gonna say to you it still bothers me, because you still do it! But yet, if I don’t say anything I’m f**ked, if I do say something I’m f**ked, I’m the bad guy and you’re feeling bad. And yet you can’t just say “I’m sorry”, because then your ego doesn’t allow it or because it doesn’t protect you. But that could be normal. You say it happens more than normal – normal is being two people that allow each other that.

JD: Yeah.

AH: [1:25:00] Am I wrong?

JD: I don’t know. I was only saying that leading in with “I’m sorry” can sometimes take away from the words that come after. And that “sorry” can start to be just a mantra that you’re doing. I don’t want to be like that with you.

AH: Nor do I. I want honesty. And if you cannot actually put yourself in someone else’s shoes, even though your inability to do so is ruining your marriage, then I don’t know what we’ll do. If you can’t look at this and say “how would I feel if I were her?”, ever, we will keep having this! I mean, you won’t be sorry, you’ll just feel like you’re obligated to say it. But if you put yourself in my shoes last night, you would have! You would have felt bad. If you put – if we switched places and you didn’t automatically in your brain go “well, she does that” just to deflect and bounce off the blame – if you actually put yourself in my shoes you would understand. And you wouldn’t be forced to be sorry. You would be like “yeah, I wouldn’t want to be that, that would suck.” We need to – we need to fix it.

JD: You just sat here – you just sat here and threw all the blame on me.

AH: No, I did not mean to. I –

JD: Go listen to the tape.

AH: I’m sorry that it – oh, I can’t say “I’m sorry”.

JD: You can say you’re sorry.

AH: I don’t feel like I can.

JD: Of course you can, just please explain. Explain, please.

AH: I went there because I was feeling, like, criticized for having the goal to be upset with you more than once. It’s like, I keep telling you, it’s the same thing, you just don’t change it or address it, so it does come up, yes. But it’s not a character flaw, it’s not like I’m like “I don’t like you”. I’m just saying “hey, that bummed, that was rude, or that made me mad, or that made me sad” or whatever. And I don’t feel like you’re saying to me ever in our life, “yeah I can imagine it probably would suck”. Or whatever it is. Not “sorry”, but you know, understanding, the humility, humble, the earnest caring about me.

JD: I’ve said all that tonight, and today. I’ve said all of it today.

AH: I hate that we’ve been fighting today, and I hate fighting with you ever. And I wanna stop. I wanna get better. We need to be able to have problems though in our life, like we’re not gonna be perfect.

JD: Of course, but you know what—

AH: But I’ve said this a thousand times to you! Let’s allow each other to be – to f**k up. Let’s allow each other to, like, be human and say sorry and move on, and able to hear the other one without trying to jump.

JD: Let’s also let the other person be the person they are.

AH: I’m not preventing you from being who you are, when I am honest with you, which is what you say you want.

JD: What do you want?

AH: Which is that it affects me when you just f**k off like last night and don’t even text! That affected me. And yet now you wanna make it like, I’m trying to prevent you from being who you are. If I did that s**t, you would be hurt.

JD: I never said you weren’t guilty of it as well, I mean that I wasn’t guilty of it as well. Those kinds of things never do us any favours, that s**t.

AH: What s**t?

JD: To, to, to rattle each other’s cages and—

AH: Baby, be present! You’re not, that’s not – I was talking about something, can you please respond to that? Please?

JD: What did I say wrong?

AH: [1:30:00] It’s not wrong. Can you please respond to what I’m saying?

JD: Maybe I missed the question. Give me the question again.

AH: Every time we say to each other, we’re gonna allow each other this, we’re gonna allow each other to f**k up, we’re gonna you know be human. And you said “well and just like maybe allow each other – allow the other one to be themselves”. And I said: “Wait a second, come on, we’re talking about last night. I did not prevent you.” Me making a request of you, or being honest with you about how I felt, is not preventing you from being who you are. It’s not. That is you shirking responsibility for having done something that’s not really cool. You – it wasn’t a big deal, and it could have been not a big deal at all. But you, like, fundamentally just, it’s like you can’t take any responsibility on your side. Why can’t you just say – or why can’t you actually imagine how you would feel if the tables were turned and you were in the other person’s—? That’s what we need! We don’t need this f**king rule that you can’t say sorry or you have to say sorry a certain way, and it’s too overused. We need sorry, we need humility! We need love! We need to care about the other person, more than our f**king selves!

JD: I don’t disagree. Again, the sorry thing was more about being able to say how you feel before saying “I’m sorry”. Let me say what I feel, let me hear what you feel. And if I’m wrong and if I’ve been a d**k, I’m f**king – I am sorry.

AH: I can’t –

JD: But “I’m sorry” shouldn’t be just a go-to thing before we explain ourselves.

AH: I can’t rely on you going and actually realizing that you’re sorry!

JD: It’s not because I – everything that you’re basically –

AH: Everything – you won’t ever think you’re responsible. I know your personality and you’ll never think you’re responsible. You’ll automatically throw the blame, so if the rule is –

JD: Amber, you do know that that’s what you do?

AH: Yeah, I say sorry all the time. That’s weird.

JD: So do I.

AH: No you don’t.

JD: I had a talk with you about, I felt like I was saying it too much. We had a talk about this.

AH: You’ve felt like that since you were a kid.

JD: Yes, yes, that’s where I got this s**t from. But in my lifetime, you know, my life before you, that was not the f**king case, you know? I’m only saying that the truth of what we feel is more important to hear from each other than “I’m sorry”. Unless you’re just coming into the thing and saying “Look, I’m sorry, this is how I felt, I was wrong, done.” You know? I’m not saying you –

AH: Do you actually think you’ll ever be able to? Do you actually think you’ll ever be able to, in the moment, when someone says to you “you did something that affects me negatively”? Do you actually think you’ll be able to transcend your immediate impulse to just fight back, and your immediate impulse that you’ve had since you’re a kid, you say? You really think you can transcend that, and then go and actually listen to me, for instance, say how I feel? Do you actually – I mean, do you think that?

JD: Yeah. But you don’t believe me, so…

AH: I would love that to happen. And I think if you can do that, I would do it.

JD: Okay.

AH: I would love it, you know. We can’t keep fighting about the same s**t. I’ve so sick of revisiting every fight we’ve ever had. I think you’re right. I think we’ve gotta move forward and start over. Are you okay?

JD: Mmm.

AH: [1:35:00] But you’ve gotta be able to let it go, too.

JD: Yeah.

[No talking for half a minute, until 1:35:35.]

AH: I want the safety back.

JD: Can you see me as you your man, or see me as your friend?

AH: What?

JD: If you mistrust a lot of what my reactions are gonna be, do you love me as a man? Do you love me as a husband, as the man who signed up to spend the rest of his life with you? It just doesn’t sound like you trust me very well, and that my reactions are gonna be f**ked up and that I never say “I’m sorry” to you.

AH: I didn’t say you never said it.

JD: That I don’t say “I’m sorry” to you.

AH: I certainly don’t think you’ll say sorry to me like you think you will. I don’t think you’ll mean it, ’cause I don’t think you’ll say it unless you mean it, and I don’t think you’ll mean it. And then I think sometimes you say sorry and you don’t mean it, as you admitted to me earlier, in a different fight of course. And that made you feel like you’re dishonest so I don’t want that either, so I don’t know what the f**k. Because I certainly don’t think that you’ll be able to see if I – god forbid if I get upset with you for something! I get hurt! If you do something that hurts me, because you’re just not thinking or whatever it is, god forbid if I have to deal with it. I don’t know what I’ll do. I don’t know how to say it to you. You won’t be okay, you won’t. The first thing you’re gonna do is be defensive. And I’m not trying to predict the future, I’m not trying to be discouraging, but I don’t know what the f**k is gonna change. You know, I came over here to say what are we gonna f**king do different? And I just feel like…

JD: Feel like what?

AH: I don’t know, I don’t know.

JD: Then that’s something you have to think about.

AH: I – I – I came over here. And do you remember how I started this conversation? Do you remember me telling you I loved you?

JD: Yes.

AH: Do you remember me telling you you were my man and that I can’t imagine my life without you?

JD: Yes, do you remember me saying it back?

AH: Yes! So when I asked you about living your life with me, you said “yes”.

JD: Yeah.

AH: You took a while, and you kind of begrudgingly said “yes”.

JD: I gave you a weird look, like a kind of “Why? Why would I have f**king married you?”

AH: Yes.

JD: I love you deeply, I love you passionately, I love you in every f**king way. In every f**king way. And it hurts to feel like I’m letting you down, man, you know, ’cause I don’t want to do that. And I know it hurts when we get in a big one and I start calling you names and you start calling me names. And you know, one of them it was me more doing more of the name-calling. And so the only f**king reason to ever ever think about any of the fights again, is as a reminder, and that’s it. And I really really wish we could get there. I do. And I’m sorry for last night, I’m sorry that I was at Issac’s for so long, and I couldn’t get out.

AH: It could have just been so simple, you know, small.

JD: Oh yeah, totally.

AH: I have the right to get mad at you.

JD: [1:40:00] Yeah, of course you do.

AH: It’s gonna happen. I’m a human, you’re a human. We live together, I’m a woman, I’m your woman. I’m going to get mad at you, I’m telling you now, I’m going get mad at you. There are going to be things that you – it’s like you use it as an excuse to say, you know, that you’re in a bad situation and you can’t do it anymore and you can’t always let me down. And you make it this grandiose thing, like this big negative grandiose thing, where if I say one thing to you, it’s like you think you’re always letting me down and you can’t be in the situation where you’re always letting me down. It’s not fair to me, it makes me so I can’t say – we can’t have normal interactions, like normal fights, normal problems. I want you to be able to do the same with me, without me freaking out, thinking “this is it”, you know! Which is where my head, you know, I went yesterday.

JD: Yeah, of course. In those situations, that’s pretty easy to have your head filled with that s**t. I just think that we can try, with a counselor. Whether you want do this lady that’s in town or whoever it is, I’m in. If you wanna do what’s-her-face with the book, Amy – whatever it was, whatever it is – Banks, we’ll do it with her. If you want whatever, I’m prepared. I don’t wanna be unhappy, no more than you do. So why shouldn’t we try to fix it?

AH: We need boundaries.

JD: I agree, and remember when we were talking I said, you know what we should do? Write down on a piece of paper our things. Our needs for each other, on some papers.

AH: Sorry, excuse me. Yes.

JD: You can probably just write on there.

AH: I don’t want to write on [inaudible].

JD: What are you – I mean, are you gonna do the list all right now?

[AH gets some papers and writes something.]

JD: That’s what you want?

AH: No, this is to be off-limits: divorce.

JD: Yeah.

AH: That’s on my list. You can never, ever throw it around. That’s on my list.

JD: I haven’t.

AH: I mean, I’m not saying you did, I’m saying that’s on my list. And it’s one I f**ked up last night. So this is, I’m being impartial here.

JD: Okay, okay. Okay, cool.

AH: That is a must for me.

JD: I don’t want a divorce.

AH: Yeah, but I wanna feel safe! I wanna feel safe, I f**king don’t feel it! I don’t feel safe, I don’t feel – I’m looking at f**king apartments half the time! I mean, not half the time. I f**king – I don’t want to do that, I’m married!

JD: I wish you would have told me.

AH: I couldn’t, I couldn’t talk to you! You were busy, you were going to rehearsals, and every time I tried to talk to you a little bit, it wasn’t – we didn’t have enough time. You were – every time I spoke to you in that whole week, you were rushing out. Never did you have time. And I even said this to you!

JD: I was there right after rehearsals.

AH: Please don’t argue with me, I promise you that I’m not lying when I say this. I even said this to you, I said: “I feel like the last thing you have time for is me. I just want a little time, ten minutes, whatever.” And we didn’t have time. And then when I finally talked to you – which I carried around all week – when I finally talked to you, I said this to you. Remember when we talked that night, Whitney’s birthday?

JD: Yeah. I didn’t want to go, yeah?

AH: That night, that we had that talk. Didn’t you apologize?

JD: Yeah.

AH: [1:45:00] When we got married, I just thought there would be safety. I thought there was a foundation. And it’s all f**king pointless. I’d rather take off my ring now and f**king live my life and just see how it goes, than to continue in this f**king forced thing, where we every single time go “I don’t want this any more.” It’s like it’s every time it gets hard. We didn’t write vows. We didn’t, you know, get around to doing the important s**t which is like, you know, f**king fighting for the wedding I f**king made happen, no. We didn’t do that. We didn’t say to each other: “I up and down, low and high, tough and easy, both.” We didn’t say that to each other, but we need to! It’s gotta be sacred, or there’s no point in being married! We – I don’t get anything from this, you don’t get anything from this, what, why? Safety, for a foundation, for the home! We burn it to the ground every time we fight. And I know you didn’t do it this time.

JD: I just don’t –

AH: Do you not agree?

JD: Yeah, I mean it’s not nice to hear you say “I’ll just take my ring off right now and take my chances out there, you know, rather than go through this s**t.” I –

AH: No, I meant instead of go through up and – I didn’t mean it like that. I see why it came across that way. I’m sorry, I did not mean that. I did not mean it the way it came out of my mouth like that. I didn’t mean that.

JD: Okay.

AH: I meant I’d rather do – I’d rather both of us cut our losses, you know, cut ties, instead of it being the thing that we always f**king go to whenever it gets hard. That’s what I meant.

JD: I agree. Yeah, I know, it shouldn’t be that. And when I bring that up, yeah that’s the f**king child f**king s**thead ego, you know, that doesn’t want to whatever. It’s a f**king d**k. I don’t want a divorce. But I do understand that if we’re unable to do this, and it just keeps on like it’s going, I really don’t know, I don’t know what else we can do.

AH: Then maybe you’re the one who needs to think about it.

JD: Why? I want us to work.

AH: Yeah, but you want it to be easy, you like want it to just work and if it doesn’t work out like this, then you guess not. That’s not the point of getting married!

JD: I know. Divorce is not the point of getting married.

AH: NO!

JD: Throwing your ring off, or saying I want to split, is not the point of getting married.

AH: Exactly. Exactly.

JD: Throwing your f**king husband out of –

AH: That happens, baby, that happens! I threw you out of the room. I didn’t throw you out of the house. And you were already on your way anyway. You know that’s your f**king – step one for you is taking off, so what the f**k am I supposed to do? You can’t blame me for that!

JD: I was going down to the couch, man.

AH: That wasn’t true. You always split. You always split.

JD: I have to get out of the room if it’s violent.

AH: It was before it was violent. You split every time.

JD: When I put my coat on? No.

AH: You split every time, Johnny, whether it’s violent or not.

JD: I put my coat on. I’ve stated before, you have your truths and I have mine, and these will just have to be worked out with a therapist. Okay, ’cause there’s no way that we’re going to, nitpicking each other. I don’t—

AH: I’m trying!

JD: I know you’re trying. But you’re still getting wound up.

AH: [1:50:00] That’s ’cause I’m here, present. It’s upsetting.

JD: What’s upsetting?

AH: That is a normal natural reaction to have. I don’t – this is upsetting. I’m not taking a pill to medicate that. I would love to, but this is actually like an organic response, and I’m sorry it’s not yours, but at least I’m trying to like – I am trying. You know, I wrote down something on the list of “never”. But I need a promise – I need promises! I need promises! We said this before, that “it won’t happen again” and “this won’t happen again” and “that won’t happen again”. And I can’t – can’t do it! You can’t do it!

JD: Again, you’re the one that brought up divorce last night.

AH: Yes, that’s why I’m being completely impartial when I’m making this list. I’m not assigning blame. I’m not writing down the things you do.

JD: Well, you just said I can’t do it.

AH: Yes, neither can you. I can’t do the thing we always do, which is that we make these – you know, we say these things—

JD: That’s what I just said before.

AH: We say these things, and then we don’t do them. I want a promise, I want security, I want the boundaries back up, I want you to commit. I want – I’m being very clear about what I want. I need promises from you. I need promises that this won’t come up. I’ll promise it back to you.

JD: I need promises from you too, so let’s do it, let’s do it.

AH: I agree, and I’m here!

JD: ’Cause I’m gonna make a list: “I promise I will not do this, I promise I will not do it.” I, me. Can you actually say “I promise I will not do this”? And say “I promise I will f**king do my best”?

AH: If it’s normal s**t, I can’t. That’s different than, “I will not take off my ring.”

JD: Right, no no.

AH: You see what I mean. That’s different. You know, like, I would love to say to you: “I promise I’ll always be understanding, or let you be you, or not get, be more, you know.” I could always promise that, but that’s different from something very clear like divorce. You know what I mean?

JD: Of course it is, yeah.

AH: I want some stability back. And I know we’ll build it over time, but don’t you want that?

JD: Of course I do. Let give it to you, accept it. Trust me. You think that I run from situations and threats—

AH: You always take off.

JD: Baby, baby, baby, baby—

AH: I can’t trust you when you do that. I have no trust. It’s why I freak out so fast these days. It’s that I assume you’re splitting.

JD: Baby, I can’t be – I can’t just stand there and take the punches. At a certain point, I’m gonna f**king react.

AH: That’s not what I’m asking. It’s before.

JD: I don’t care. No, but what I’m saying is –

AH: We’re talking about splitting. I’m not asking you to stand there while I punch you. Come on.

JD: No, we’re talking about me, yeah, getting out of the room, or leaving? It did not – I didn’t – in Australia, I didn’t leave the f**king house, I went to other rooms. You know, when I whatever. I didn’t take off in San Franscisco or wherever. Look, I go in another room, you know.

AH: That’s different than saying “I’m getting another hotel room”, which is what you did in Toronto. And then in France you said “I’m getting you a flight”. And you involve, you know, people, other people. It’s humiliating, it’s embarrassing, it’s demeaning to me, and it’s –

JD: You wanted a flight.

AH: No, but you were the one to suggest a flight.

JD: Possibly, yeah. Maybe I did.

AH: You actually text Stephen that. And the same with the room. Your splitting is chronic, it’s early, it’s quick, it’s so not – you’re not interested in not fighting. You are guaranteeing a fight, when you do that. And I’ve told you so many times, you guarantee it. If you were interested in not fighting, you would be respectful, if you needed the space, to make – You would be careful not to perpetuate the fight longer by saying “I need a few minutes”, and then actually honouring that. How can I trust you that it will be a few minutes, when you’ve done this in the past and disappeared for hours? You know, I got mad at you in Australia about this. I’ve said baby, “I want to trust you.” It’s hard for me not to try and work it out. If you want to be the person that’s like “I need to cool down”, help me do that, give that to you! But I can’t give it to you if you always let me down and f**k up and forget!

JD: [1:55:00] Because I gave you a time limit, because I said I’ll be back in three minutes? So I’m just – if that happens –

AH: No, it’s different!

JD: If it happens –

AH: It’s different, you never –

JD: If it happens, I’m just gonna say “look, I need some time”. That’s it.

AH: I’m telling you, that will make it worse.

JD: No.

AH: I guarantee you, it will.

JD: If you’re f**king throwing punches—

AH: I’m not talking about throwing punches. I’m talking about an argument.

JD: Right. In arguments, you tend to throw punches.

AH: I’m talking about arguments. I’m not talking about the times when it’s got physical. I’m talking about arguments. I’m talking about arguments. I’m talking about arguments. I’m not talking about fights.

JD: Yeah, in our arguments –

AH: Earlier and earlier and earlier now, you split. You take off right away, and you don’t deal with the issue, you don’t deal with the confrontation, and you split. Whether it is – and then you do it for an undeterminate amount of time. You do it without actually respecting when you do give me a time, like say “I need a few minutes”, you never actually honour anything close to that. So I can’t trust you, especially when you always take off.

JD: “A few minutes” is also an expression. It’s not –

AH: Yes, exactly, and I’m not holding you to it. I’m saying, hours and hours later is different. If you need time, cool. If we’re in a fight, and you need time, cool. But you’ve got to be respectful about it. That way it won’t perpetuate the fight more. It gives me anxiety, and makes me far more stressed, and far more angry, and perpetuates the amount of time that I can cool down and go “You know what, maybe I’m acting this way, or maybe I’m being mean to him, or maybe I’m doing this wrong, maybe I should come to his side or compromise more.” It takes me so much longer, exponentially longer, when you take off. You use it to hurt me, it’s a tool now that you use. And, come on, you can’t act like you don’t do it knowing it’s gonna make me mad.

JD: I’m not. It’s not to get you mad. It’s not to. It’s just to get out of a bad situation while it’s happening, before it gets worse. In Australia, when we had the big fight where I lost the tip of my finger, at least five bathrooms and two bedrooms I went to, to—

AH: To avoid talking to me. To avoid working it out.

JD: To escape the fight!

AH: YOU DON’T ESCAPE THE FIGHT, YOU ESCAPE THE SOLUTION!

JD: No.

AH: YOU ESCAPE THE SOLUTION!

JD: No!

AH: YOU ESCAPE FIGURING IT OUT! WE CANNOT WORK IT OUT IF YOU RUN AWAY TO THE BATHROOM EVERY TIME!

JD: Listen to me. Listen to me. A boxer can’t go twelve rounds without a f**king minute break.

AH: I’M NOT NOT GIVING YOU A MINUTE BREAK. YOU DO IT AT MINUTE THREE AT THE BEGINNING OF AN ARGUMENT!

JD: No. There are rounds, man, and when it gets too f**king hairy, the ref splits them apart or whatever. But all I’m saying is, you can’t have a solution if the argument just keeps mounting and mounting and mounting and mounting. I f**king go into the bathroom and sit on the floor. Bam bam bam, here you come. I come out, fight fight fight, crazy, escalate it. I go and split again, I go to another f**king bathroom, or a bedroom or something. Knock knock knock, bang bang bang. You kept coming to get me.

AH: Every single time I come to get you, what am I saying, 90% of the time? “Stop, let’s work this out, please, I don’t want to do this.” That’s what you’re f**king ignoring! That’s the really f**king crazy thing, that I cannot understand! The self-delusion is so f**king deep that you are able to tell me right now all of this and mean it. How can you say that to me? And ignore that 90% of the time, what that “bam bam bam” is – as you’re escaping me like I’m some sort of vicious harping bird in a f**king Hitchcock movie and you can’t get away from me – what you’re f**king ignoring and BLATANTLY –  is that I’m saying like this, I’m saying this to you: “Let’s stop, babe, let’s stop, let’s work it out, I’m sorry, can we talk, let’s get over this, let’s stop, can we stop fighting?” THAT IS WHAT’S SO F**KING INSANE! THAT YOU SIT HERE AND YOU TELL ME AS IF I’M SO ANNOYING TO YOU, THAT YOU CAN’T ESCAPE ME! [2:00:00] THAT I’M ACTUALLY COMING TO YOU AND SAYING LET’S NOT DO THIS! IT IS YOUR ISSUE THAT YOU CAN’T LET IT GO, YOU CAN’T CALM YOURSELF DOWN, YOU CAN’T SELF-SOOTHE, AND YOU CAN’T MAKE YOURSELF BIGGER THAN THE THING THAT YOU’RE REALLY FEELING AT THAT MOMENT, and go “You’re right, I know we’re gonna come to a solution eventually, let’s end it now and come straight to the solution.” Or respectfully “I can’t imagine coming to a solution ’cause I need to cool down, so just give me a few minutes”, in which case I would respect that, IF YOU WOULD RESPECT IT TOO AND YOU WOULD ACTUALLY BE A REASONABLE AMOUNT OF TIME! BUT I DON’T HAVE THAT OPTION! AND YOU – WHAT YOU IGNORE ON PURPOSE IS THAT I’M COMING TO YOU SAYING “LET’S STOP DOING THIS”, AND YOU PERPETUATE THE FIGHT! YOU PERPETUATE IT WHEN YOU RUN AWAY. YOU START IT WHEN IT COULD BE JUST A PETTY ARGUMENT, and you make it NOT a petty argument because you RUN AWAY, and then it becomes a FIGHT, INSTEAD of just saying sorry. INSTEAD of working it out, INSTEAD of facing it, INSTEAD of confronting things, YOU RUN AWAY AT MINUTE THREE! And then it’s IMPOSSIBLE to work it out, because you’ve INSULTED ME, NOW I’M MAD, and THEN I have to come to you to go: “Come out of the bathroom baby, let’s work this out.” WHICH I CAN’T DO BECAUSE THAT’S ANNOYING TO YOU TOO. HOW WOULD YOU FEEL IF I RAN AWAY FROM YOU ALL THE TIME? YOU WOULDN’T F**KING LIKE IT! YOU F**KING DEAL WITH IT! NOW it’s my turn! I get to avoid f**king problems! I get to avoid the responsibility! LET’S see how that works out for you! I’m you!

[It sounds like AH stands up to leave.]

JD: Let’s avoid fights. And by the way –

AH: YEAH, LET’S BE PERFECT!

JD: And by the way—

AH: Why don’t we just be perfect? Why don’t we just live in make-believe land?

JD: [inaudible] I told you again earlier, that’s impossible. What I’m saying is, avoid, for me –

AH: I try. I try.

JD: When you tried to go into the f**king room or the [inaudible]

AH: If I’m so annoying to you, I can’t do it anymore!

JD: Stop, please, please. Listen to me. Let me finish this.

AH: Fine, I’m done! I give up!

JD: Let me finish this. If I went to five bathrooms and two bedrooms, how is it that you came and said “let’s stop this”?

AH: You’re right, I made it up.

JD: Seven times?

AH: Yes. Yes. I —

JD: Seven times you came to me, in different places, to say let’s stop this.

AH: I don’t know which fight you’re talking about. I don’t know which one.

JD: I’m talking about Australia, the day that I [inaudible] my finger.

AH: Now we’re talking about Australia? Okay, yeah, I tried a million times.

JD: Seven times. In different places.

AH: I tried a million times, in different places, yes.

JD: Why did I go in those places then?

AH: Because you weren’t ready to get over it. You couldn’t self-soothe. You couldn’t control yourself. You couldn’t—

JD: I needed time.

AH: No, because I’d come to you and I’d say “look, let’s get over this, work it out, whatever”. And instead of you actually doing that, you would f**king explode, you’d get mad at me and the fight would continue. Guess what, it could have been a petty argument. Like last night, it could have been a petty argument. Every time, it could just be a petty argument. But when you run away, and then you validate it with some high [inaudible] you’re-just-trying-to-make-it-better NONSENSE –

JD: I’m not trying to make it better necessarily, I’m just trying to –

AH: No you’re not, you’re trying to protect yourself and yourself only, because you cannot control your anger.

JD: I am trying—

AH: And you cannot control it.

JD: No, in fact you know what? I am trying to make it better, by doing exactly this kind of thing. And you ask any f**king doctor, you ask Cowan, you ask anybody. The best thing to do if it’s coming to a f**king horrible violent thing, is f**king walk away, take your f**king time, go to your corners. That’s the best thing you can f**king do.

AH: If you were actually doing that, I would agree.

JD: Seven times. Seven times.

AH: I don’t know what seven times you’re talking about! I don’t know—

JD: Five bathrooms, two bedrooms.

AH: YOU WERE COKED OUT OF YOUR F**KING MIND! YOU WERE F**KING CRAZY, YOU DIDN’T SLEEP FOR DAYS! YOU WERE DELUSIONAL! YOU WERE PSYCHOTIC! LITERALLY, YOU WENT INTO PSYCHOSIS! DO NOT TELL ME ABOUT YOUR BEHAVIOUR DURING THAT F**KING ESCAPADE! I HAVE TRIED TO COMPLETELY BLOCK IT OUT!

JD: And I threw the vodka bottles?

AH: You can poke an animal, no matter how calm they are!

JD: Did I throw the vodka bottles?

AH: You can f**king poke them—

JD: Did I throw the vodka bottles? Did I throw the vodka bottles?

AH: You threw bottles, you threw me, you hit me –

JD: No.

AH: YES YOU DID! YOU WERE –

JD: You threw –

AH: YOU’RE RIGHT! Your three nights of skipping sleep, your bags of cocaine –

JD: After you—

AH: Your f**king redbull and your booze, is all – You know what, Johnny? You know what? You wanna hear what you wanna hear? You’re right, let’s get everyone in here to just pamper you and fluff you and tell you you’re right. You know what, your memory’s probably –

JD: If that’s how you feel about things —

AH: No, your memory’s probably equal to mine. It has nothing to do with your psychosis, had nothing to do with the cocaine, it had nothing to do with the booze, it had nothing to do with your meds, it had nothing to do with your lack of sleep and how that puts you into a manic state. You’re right!

JD: You forgot about the eight ecstasies.

AH: YOU ARE ACCURATE! NO, YOUR MEMORY’S ACCURATE! YOUR MEMORY’S ACCURATE! YOU’VE GOT IT NOW, YOUR MEMORY’S PERFECTLY ACCURATE! YOU ARE A F**KING STAND-UP MAN! YOU F**KING –

JD: Eight ecstasies, [inaudible].

AH: Oh yeah, you’re right, I did, so you know what, you’re probably right. You probably – your memory, Johnny, is probably spot on and perfect, comparable to mine. I was sober, but that’s fine. You can f**king – you can guess it all you want. I f**king remember that s**t! [2:05:00] I REMEMBER THAT S**T!

JD: So do I. So do I.

AH: You were out of your mind.

JD: Yes I was.

AH: You’re telling me about a f**king vodka – You know what, forget it, I don’t wanna fight about Australia. I don’t wanna talk to you about Australia. If you want to f**king persist and never let go of a godd**n thing, you’re never ever gonna be truly together with anybody. No one’s gonna make you happy. And you run away at the first sign of trouble. Any time that there’s a f**king problem, you f**king run away and you make it worse. And you act like it’s some high [inaudible] self-righteous thing that you’re just doing, the big thing, the honourable thing by walking away. You know what, I believe that horses**t. If you actually have ever done this – “I need to cool down, I’m walking away, I’m not walking away from you, I want to work this out, just give me an hour” – if you ever actually did it responsibly, I’d say yeah you’re right, you’re being the bigger person. That is not the case. You f**king run away, and there’s a difference. Every time you get f**king stressed, every time I’m picking on you by having a problem with you.

JD: Because I don’t have enough time to get those words in. You are clearly on tape, f**king, like, just haranguing me and not giving me a second to f**king speak. So I could easily say “hey, I need, you know –”

AH: Yeah, you could try. I don’t think you ever try. I think you are running away. I’m not trying to be insulting to you. I cannot talk to you. We cannot work it out. We can never work anything out, when you do that. It perpetuates it, it makes it f**king –

JD: You are perpetuating it, and you are making it worse, right now.

AH: Why am I always the one knocking on the door, saying “let’s stop this”? That’s not me – that’s not me perpetuating it. That’s me trying to be the bigger person.

JD: I have been as calm as a f**king cucumber in this f**king fight.

AH: Yeah.

JD: I have tried, I have said I’m sorry, I’ve said “I wanna f**king try anything, I wanna go to a f**king shrink or whatever.” I’ve said everything, I’ve said “yeah I’m going here, yeah I’m going there.” But listen, do you understand that you are just –?

AH: No, you’re not, but like, I am! In fact, you can’t decide if I say sorry too much or too little, because I feel like you’ve also criticized me for saying sorry too much. I f**king apologized profusely for yesterday.

JD: You didn’t say it too much. You just said “I’m sorry” as a go-to thing.

AH: It wasn’t a go-to thing. I meant it.

JD: It becomes, it will become meaningless, unless we say “look, here’s what I was thinking, did I f**k up?” And then you say, “Yes you did f**k up and it made me feel this.” And then, “F**k I’m sorry, I’m really f**king sorry.” That requires some type of cooler head.

AH: Yes, and neither of us really have that, but at least I can calm down, at least I can get high. You don’t have a cool head. You have it right now, but you can’t be on Xanax all the time. You definitely needed it today, but you can’t be on it all the time. You know what I mean? You’re gonna have that temper back, that makes you not as calm as you are right now.

JD: Amber, my meds I am taking, I will take.

AH: I’m not criticizing! Zero, zero judgement. You need to pump the breaks on actually thinking that I’m judging you just because I made a statement. I am not, there is zero judgement. I even added –

JD: Sometimes to me, it feels like that’s all there is.

AH: But you don’t take it all the time. But my point is, if you’re calm right now, that’s great and it’s wonderful and you need to be, and I’m really glad you took a Xanax to help you calm down.

JD: [inaudible]

AH: But, but you can’t be calm all the time. I mean you can’t be on Xanax all the time that will help kind of keep you calm – or maybe you are, I don’t know. But it was not judgement! That was not judgement!

JD: Look—

AH: I OWN WHAT I SAY, I SAY WHAT I F**KING MEAN! I DON’T NEED ANYONE, F**KING YOU OR ANYONE, PUTTING WORDS IN MY GOD-D**N MOUTH. I MEAN WHAT I F**KING SAY! DO YOU HEAR ME? I MEAN WHAT I SAY, I SAY WHAT I MEAN, AND YOU’RE NOT GONNA SIT HERE AND F**KING CHANGE IT FOR ME. I AM SO SICK AND F**KING TIRED OF YOU TELLING ME ALL THE TIME WHAT I ACTUALLY SAID, AND WHAT I MEANT. I’M TELLING YOU WHAT I MEAN. I HAD NO JUDGEMENT ON THAT, THAT WAS YOUR PROJECTION, THAT’S YOU PUTTING THAT S**T ON ME! THERE IS ZERO JUDGEMENT THERE!

JD: Why bring it up?

AH: Maybe because it’s a fact, ’cause it matters, ’cause it factors in, because it’s relevant. I don’t know, many of those things.

JD: Didn’t you earlier take a propranolol?

AH: Yes, I have propranolol right here.

JD: Well then—

AH: What does that change?

JD: Same as the Xanax.

AH: [2:10:00] That changes how you react to stimuli.

JD: In what way?

AH: It keeps you calmer.

JD: And what does the propranolol do?

AH: It’s supposed to slow your heart rate down. It has absolutely no psycholog—

JD: [inaudible]

AH: No it does not! It has zero psychological effect whatsoever. It reacts physically to the mechanisms in your brain that control your heart. That’s it. It does not make me less upset – clearly!

JD: Yes it does.

AH: It does not make you less— IT DOES NOT AFFECT YOU PSYCHOLOGICALLY! IT DOESN’T AFFECT!

JD: I have taken it.

AH: THEN YOU SHOULD F**KING KNOW! IT DOES NOT MAKE YOU F**KING CALM, AS YOU CAN CLEARLY SEE!

JD: If you’re go and make a f**king speech, if you have to do this or that that makes you nervous, propranolol is what they give you. Propranolol is what they give you.

AH: I know that.

JD: Okay, so that’s what it’s for.

AH: Thank you! I’m so glad we’re talking about this.

JD: It is for stress.

AH: It does not affect you psychologically, at all.

JD: But you know, you —

AH: LOOK IT UP! I DON’T F**KING CARE, I WON’T TALK ABOUT F**KING IT ANYMORE, YOU CAN F**KING LOOK IT UP!

JD: You don’t get high.

AH: It clearly doesn’t work, does it?

JD: You don’t get high on it.

AH: No you don’t! And it doesn’t calm you down psychologically. It’s supposed to slow your heart rate down. Clearly it doesn’t really work that well! You need a lot! It’s not affecting my judgement at all! It doesn’t AFFECT how angry I am, it does not AFFECT how passionate I am. And I was NOT criticizing you or judging at all, which is why you wanted to reach for what I’m taking as a means to defend yourself. But you IGNORE everything I said, which is, there is absolutely zero judgment on that! I was pointing out that you will not react as cool-headed as you are right now, because if anything should happen while you’re not on Xanax, it could be an explosion. THAT’S ALL! I was pointing out that both of us have tempers, and what will happen if you’re not on Xanax, and if something comes up, will you be able to talk to yourself and reason with that inner self? THAT’S WHAT I WAS BRINGING UP! IT HAD NO JUDGEMENT ON IT WHATSOEVER! I’M ACTUALLY VERY GLAD YOU TOOK A XANAX, AND I’M VERY HAPPY FOR YOU! THERE IS ZERO, ZERO F**KING JUDGMENT! I DON’T NEED YOU F**KING TELLING ME WHAT I SAID! I DON’T NEED YOUR F**KING GODD**N PROJECTION ON ME. I DIDN’T F**KING GO THERE. YOU CAN F**KING LISTEN TO ME OR NOT, I DON’T F**KING CARE! I’m just gonna walk away for a minute, okay?

JD: Take your time.

[No talking for 6 minutes, until 2:18:30.]

AH: I don’t know what to do.

JD: [inaudible]

AH: I don’t know what to do. I came here to tell you I love you and to tell you – I said all that s**t and I’m so stupid, I feel like…

[No talking for another minute, until 2:20:11.]

AH: I wanna go back home. You do whatever you want, you do whatever you want, you go wherever you want.

[Inaudible]

AH: I don’t know what else to do.

JD: I can’t hear you, baby, I’m sorry.

AH: I don’t know what else to do.

JD: I thought that we had some sort of game plan.

AH: I told you what I needed. You said you should live with me, yet you don’t. Seeing the counselor’s just not gonna do it. It’s not alone enough. We’ve gotta change how we do things, and I wanna trust you, and I feel like all the trust is gone. All of the f**king trust is gone in the relationship because you keep splitting! Like, we fight together, but you’re the only one who splits, and I want that back. But you — you –

JD: If there’s no trust, then there’s nothing to be talking about.

AH: Then maybe there’s nothing to talk about. But I did come over here with enough love in my heart, and sincerity—

JD: Thankyou.

AH: To say to you all the things I said, which now I feel like – but I meant them! You know I f**king meant them! Even though you f**king split, and didn’t come home. You know, I still did that. I f**king have shown myself, I’ve proven myself, I’ve fought for you, I’ve showed up.

JD: I’m not gonna be in a physical f**king altercation with you.

AH: Don’t! Then don’t!

JD: You f**king hit me last night! You f**king—

AH: What about all the other times you split? Come on, you cannot act like that’s about that, it’s not!

JD: Well on a plane, I can’t split.

AH: No, and you hit back, so don’t act like you don’t f**king participate.

JD: I pushed you.

AH: I’m not gonna get into the details of that fight. You and I both know that you split when there is no physical violence involved, and that you do it at the very beginning of fights these days. AND if you split and you go into a different room and you don’t actually leave that house, it does nothing but perpetuate the fight! And you DON’T actually do it respectfully, you DON’T do it in a way that actually means we won’t fight. It ALWAYS makes more fights. It ALWAYS makes them longer. It never EVER makes you calmer. You never come out going “I want to talk” or “I’m okay” or “it’s gonna be okay”. And I’m sick and tired 100% of being the only one that goes and fights for it. You know what that does? It demoralizes the half of this relationship that is me. It demeans me, it demoralizes me—

JD: Really?

AH: Yes, really. Really, when you split on me – how do you feel when I leave you? I’ve left you before.

JD: When I split? When I go into the other room, you’re saying?

AH: You get another room, you get a flight, things like that. And you asked me not to in Australia and ever since then—

JD: Look, how many? How many? You’re wrong.

AH: I don’t know how to count them up.

JD: No, because I haven’t left you. Left you in the house, maybe twice, last night and another time.

AH: No, you’ve done it before, I’ve come here. I’m not doing that anymore.

JD: Yeah, you’ve come here before, last time, and another time – last night.

AH: You’ve done this several times. And, getting me a room – I mean, another room at a hotel’s just the same thing!

JD: When did I get another room at a hotel?

AH: You text Stephen, or Nathan, in Toronto to get you another room. It’s chronic, it happens all the time, and if you do it, to go into another room, you do it and you get dressed—

JD: You were f**king screaming at me.

AH: I am not going to validate my actions last night, I feel very bad about how I reacted.

JD: No, I’m talking about Toronto.

AH: I did not start screaming until you had f**king said all the s**t – you poke an animal, enough, it is EVENTUALLY, doesn’t matter how friendly it is or how cool—

JD: That’s not true. Well, it’s the same for me. It’s the same for me.

AH: I stayed cool for so long, and you kicked and kicked and kicked. I have NOT done this to you. I have NOT said these things to you. I have NOT started the fight by saying I’m gonna get another room! And I’m not gonna sit here and FIGHT ABOUT F**KING TORONTO ANYMORE! GUESS WHAT? I’VE LET IT GO! I’M NOT F**KING TALKING ABOUT TORONTO.

JD: Send me the tapes.

AH: I can yell it, I can whisper it, I can write it. [2:25:00] Guess what? I’m not saying another f**king word about Toronto. I am so sick and tired of f**king fighting about old fights. This is not about a fight, this is BROAD. This is a broad thing. And if I’m telling you, EVERY single time you get dressed and you f**king split at the top of a fight, you NEVER f**king try and work it out, you NEVER fight for me, YOU NEVER COME TO ME, YOU NEVER SELF-CALM, YOU NEVER SELF-SOOTHE, YOU’RE NEVER THE ONE TO THROW THE OLIVE BRANCH, I’M SICK AND TIRED OF IT AND IT NEEDS TO F**KING CHANGE! And you can go “I can’t meet those demands, I can’t do it”, or you can f**king promise me so I have a MODICUM of safety, I feel a MODICUM of respect, a little tiny s**t sliver of f**king, like, “YOU ARE IN THIS WHETHER IT IS GOOD OR BAD”. WHETHER IT IS GOOD OR BAD, DOWN AND UP, LOWS AND HIGHS, TOUGH AND EASY! NOT just when it’s easy! I feel like you’re a f**king vacation husband. You are SO there when it’s good. You’re SO there when it’s easy. The second it gets hard, you question it. Last night I’m just as guilty, I give you that, but I have been primed and conditioned, at this point! I thought I’d never get over Toronto, it hurt so bad. I got f**ked over so bad. And I did not do anything like that, I didn’t stoop to that level at ALL!

JD: You’ve got the tapes. Let me hear them.

AH: Absolutely. I WISH, I WISH it had caught everything too.

JD: Why don’t you send me, just send me the f**king recordings?

AH: I will. I will.

JD: Just text them to me.

AH: I don’t know how else to say “I will” to you! Hasn’t really been a kind of safe environment now, has it? So if I’m looking to stoke a fire, yeah okay. I HAVEN’T, BECAUSE WE HAVE NOT BEEN WELL! WE HAVE NOT BEEN GOOD! WHEN I F**KING MOVE OUT, IF I MOVE OUT, THEN YOU’LL HAVE ’EM AND YOU CAN F**KING RELISH THEM! And you won’t f**king like it, what you hear. It won’t make you happy! But you hear what I’m telling you? We haven’t really been good – it hasn’t been a safe environment now, has it? You act like you’re f**king ON something when I haven’t sent you this. “Well, then send them to me.” Get this: it hasn’t been good. It’s been a little tough.

JD: It wasn’t before Rio.

AH: Wasn’t tough?

JD: I mean, only in the sense that you tried to keep me, you know—

AH: It’s been really tough.

JD: Then why did you come to Rio?

AH: All I’ve been trying to do is be with you, spend time with you. You said you needed that, you said that it made a difference that I wasn’t working, you wanted me to travel with you, you said our relationship would be different.

JD: That was the time you were looking for apartments?

AH: That was after Toronto.

JD: Yeah, but that’s when we came back here.

AH: I know where we were.

JD: Toronto, Boston, here.

AH: I know where we were. We’ve been on the road basically since Australia and I have been at your side. And I have not been [inaudible].

JD: Well, we were on our honeymoon, I hope you were at my side.

AH: I’m not talking about just a honeymoon, now, am I? I’m talking about many months, and was it all the honeymoon, NO! I have been at your side throughout it all. You said “Why did you come to Rio?” and I answered you. I would love for it to be better. I have NO f**king consistency, NO safety, NO security. The relationship is something – me is something you DON’T fight for, YOU DON’T STAND UP FOR, YOU ALWAYS RUN FROM WHEN IT’S TOUGH. I’M TELLING YOU, I NEED MORE – I mean, we didn’t say vows, you didn’t make them exactly in that way, you know, but – BUT NOW IS THE F**KING TIME! I NEED TO KNOW IF YOU’RE GONNA BE THERE! I WANT PROMISES, I TOLD YOU THAT AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS CONVERSATION! I NEED PROMISES THAT YOU’RE GONNA F**KING BE THERE! I NEED PROMISES THAT THIS IS IMPORTANT TO YOU – NOT WHEN IT’S EASY, WHEN IT’S HARD TOO – THAT THIS IS SOMETHING YOU’LL FIGHT FOR, THAT THIS IS SOMETHING THAT’S SACRED, THAT NEITHER OF US THROW OUT AT EVERY FIGHT. I CAN’T BE THE ONLY ONE TO HOLD THE PROMISES. I WAS IN TORONTO AND IT F**KED ME OVER! I CAN’T BE THE ONLY ONE! YOU CAN’T BE THE ONLY ONE! If I split on you, all those times I thought about doing it, we would not be here. And I stayed, and it’s tougher, you know, that’s STRONGER, I’m STRONGER. It is EASY to run. It is EASY to run away from problems. It is EASY to take that out and say “well, that’s the easiest, I mean that’s the best, safest way out”. I’m not saying we should get in physical altercations. I NEVER wanna be in that. NEVER! But EVERY time you don’t like what I say, and you f**king run away – we’ll NEVER work out anything. YOU CAN’T RUN AWAY EVERY FIGHT! YOU CAN’T! IT’S EASY, IT’S NOT BRAVE, IT’S NOT STRONG! It’s harder to SAY to somebody: “I wanna work this out. I wanna face what I have, I wanna face what you have, I wanna work it out with you.” You’re not working it out. [2:30:00] You’re RUNNING AWAY, AND THEN YOU MAKE ME BE THE BIGGER PERSON EVERY SINGLE TIME AND COME TO YOU, AND KNOCK ON THE DOOR, AND COME TO THIS HOUSE AND SAY: “HEY, WE’RE MARRIED, IT’S SUPPOSED TO BE SACRED! CALM DOWN, CALM DOWN!”

JD: I made you? I made you?

AH: YES, by default! If you’re never the one to do it, ONE of us is and I’M the one to do it every time. It means I’M the bigger person every time. It means I have to be the strong one. It means EVERY time I have to fight for our relationship and you get to be NOT – you get to be lazy, you get to be cowardly, I don’t know what it is—

JD: Then what are you even here for? What do you need me for then?

AH: Once again, I am fighting for the relationship, I want—

JD: With a guy you don’t f**king trust or like? Why?

AH: I did not say I didn’t like you. I love you. You’re my favorite person in the WORLD!

JD: I don’t see how I could be.

AH: Remember what I said at the beginning – I’m sorry you feel like you can’t imagine it – but I said this to you at the beginning of this conversation. I said “you’re my favorite person in the whole world”. If you weren’t the most magnetic, shiny, beautiful, interesting, dynamic person I have ever met in my life, it would be so EASY to walk away from this BRATTY thing that you do!

JD: Untrustworthy, um…

AH: Did you hear what I just said? I said I can’t trust, I can’t trust — that’s not meaning you’re untrustworthy, it means we’ve created a situation – and I’m telling you what you do to create it too – we’ve created a situation in which there cannot – trust can’t grow. It’s like, it’s trampled every single time, and we need a marriage – that’s why I SAT DOWN! DO YOU NOT REMEMBER me sitting down at the very beginning of this conversation and saying just that to you, saying: “I know you got married for security and for safety, so did I.” We did not get married because it was something that we were doing, ’cause it was something where we could walk away – we wanted a foundation, no?

JD: I wanted you. Yes, I wanted to make you my wife, I love you.

AH: Yes, yes, but… you could just have me as your girlfriend if you didn’t want the foundation! And you told me – and maybe you’d go back on it now, fine, okay, cool, lie about that, I don’t know – you told me you wanted a foundation. You told me you wanted the security, you wanted the safety, you liked the foundation. At the beginning you said “I really like having that, it feels safe.”

JD: Of course.

AH: So don’t argue with me when I say it now!

JD: I’m not arguing with you.

AH: Oh, yeah, but you had to pick it apart.

JD: By saying because I loved you and I wanted you to be my wife – that’s picking it apart?

AH: No.

JD: Then… how did I pick it apart?

AH: I don’t wanna do this. I don’t wanna fight about a fight. I don’t wanna fight about the semantics. I don’t wanna—

JD: How come when I come up with a point you can’t answer, suddenly you don’t wanna answer it?

AH: What am I not answering? ’Cause I don’t wanna start a fight about this new thing. No, I don’t want to! I said you wanted the safety and security and you stopped me, you interrupted me, and then you said, what? “No, because I wanted to have you as my—”

JD: I didn’t interrupt you, you asked me, “right?” You said “right?”

AH: I meant you interjected. I meant you said. You said. How about that? See, now is this better? I answered you, I addressed what you’re saying, now can we please not fight about that?

JD: And I said, “because I love you.”

AH: You said “loved”.

JD: We’re talking about a f**king event that’s past tense. If I used “loved”, my apologies, it doesn’t mean I don’t love you now.

AH: My whole point that you had, I don’t know, an issue with, is that you love me, yes, you married me though because you wanted, some safety, some security, some stability, a foundation. Now if you take issue with that, okay, you take issue with it. But if you agree, then you agree that’s who you were when you married me.

JD: Yes, but the only thing that’s missing is “with you”.

AH: Yes.

JD: I wanted those things “with you”, and that’s what I was trying to say.

AH: Me too.

JD: I love you and I wanted to marry you, for that. For our love, for the security, for the foundation – yes, of course. But you left “for you”.

AH: I’m sorry I didn’t. Me too. I mean “with you”, of course.

JD: Or “with you”, or whatever.

AH: I mean that, of course. Of course I do. Of course I want that with you, it’s why I married you. But I need the safety, I need the security, I need the boundaries, and I think you – how could you not agree?

JD: I need the same. I need the same things.

AH: So –

JD: But when you start flipping out, and I can’t get a word in, and it’s, you know, manic and angry, what the f**k Amber?

AH: I get angry! I’m human! This is the kind of situation where one gets angry!

JD: Okay, but you can’t provoke anger in me, then. If I –

AH: I can’t control that, if I’m angry—

JD: Just try. Just try. Let’s both try – if there’s anger, if there’s something f**king really really f**king poking us in the a*s – let’s try.

[AH makes a noise of skepticism.]

JD: [2:35:00] Try not to f**king fight. Try to address it without jumping down each other’s throats, because all that’s gonna do is build a mountain of f**king resentment, some species of f**king hatred within the love, and totally f**king mistrust. Because you say you don’t trust me, you don’t trust me – I get it, okay, I’m a flake, I’m a this, I’m a that, alright—

AH: I didn’t say as a person. I was speaking specifically about this. I don’t trust the marriage, I don’t trust you, I don’t feel safe with it ’cause you always f**king bail on it.

JD: Well, then—

AH: That’s sick.

JD: I don’t know, you know.

AH: I want the trust back. You can deflect all you want, say it’s my fault, say “how dare I get angry at you ever?” Whatever. I’m telling you.

JD: I’m telling you. As much as you don’t like that s**t in your marriage, I don’t like the guff that you put on me in our marriage. And if it causes distrust in me, it causes distrust in me, yeah?

AH: I don’t know how to help you.

JD: I don’t know—

AH: I don’t know what – the thing is—

JD: Sometimes I don’t. I don’t wanna f**king be there and go through this s**t, I don’t, man. I don’t.

AH: I know.

JD: ’Cause I don’t wanna f**king… fight.

AH: But it doesn’t have to be one. It’s not like I’m saying “hey, choose fight!”

JD: You just said, “I get mad, I’m gonna scream!”

AH: No, I didn’t say that’s always the case. I said yeah, I’m mad, it happens. It happens.

JD: Yes, I know. It happens often.

AH: The things that are wrong are repeating themselves and they happen often. If you think I’m some f**king tyrant or bully, then don’t f**king be with me, but don’t sit here and insult me like I’m the f**k-up because I have the audacity to get mad.

JD: You’re the one saying that I’m the tyrant and the bully, and at the same time the guy that runs away—

AH: I have called you a bully. You are! You run away every single fight.

JD: Okay, so then what are you doing with me?

AH: I’m not lying about it.

JD: Then what are you doing with me?

AH: I already answered that, I already spent – We went through this conversation literally five minutes ago. I answered this already five minutes ago.

JD: You just said to me that I shouldn’t be with you.

AH: No, I said that you—

JD: That’s what I feel.

AH: No, I said if I’m some, you know, harping bully which is what you make me sound like, that I’m like constantly on you making you feel bad – ’cause that’s what I do. And then you ignore everything, you take me for granted, you’re ignoring everything that I do for you. You make me sound terrible, you talk about me in a terrible way. You do not fight for me. And then you wanna sit here and make me sound so terrible to be around—

JD: What do you mean, I don’t fight for you? What’s that mean?

AH: Everything I’ve already explained, ten minutes before.

JD: No – “don’t fight for you”, I don’t understand? What does that mean?

AH: You never, ever, do the work, put in the work. If we’re arguing about something, you don’t ever try to get to the bottom of it, figure out, make the peace. You want to make it easy on you so you split. You don’t FIGHT for me, you don’t FIGHT when there’s a problem, you don’t COME to me, you don’t make peace with me, you NEVER extend an olive branch, you’re NEVER the bigger guy, you’re NEVER the one that’s like “okay, I’m gonna put my own feelings aside for a second and say, this is bigger than us, let’s stop fighting.” You NEVER are the one to come and knock on my door. You take me for GRANTED!

JD: That’s not true. That’s not true. I’m not the one who f**king throws f**king pots and whatever the f**king else at me.

AH: Those are different. That’s different. That’s different. [laughs] One does not negate the other. That’s irrelevant. It’s a complete non-sequitur. Just because I’ve thrown pots and pans does NOT mean that you come and knock on the door.

JD: Vases and f**king—

AH: Just because there are vases does not mean that you come and knock on the door.

JD: Really, I should just let you throw—?

AH: I’m not saying that. You’re saying that. You’re putting WORDS in my mouth, and then making non-sequiturs.

JD: No, I’m giving you a situation.

AH: No, you’re trying to justify how you don’t or do come to the door, based on whether I throw pots and pans. It’s irrelevant!

JD: No, I am justifying how you seem to think that there’s this cowardice in me that runs away and I don’t fight for you.

AH: And you’re justifying that by saying I throw pots and pans? Ok, cool, let’s talk about everything you do wrong.

JD: No! I’m not the one who f**king did that. I don’t f**king— I didn’t—

AH: So that makes sense. That makes sense. So that’s clear, yeah.

JD: Do I…? The only time I ever threw anything at you was when you f**king threw the cans at me in Australia!

AH: Why are you – why are you trying to justify who throws things based on whether or not you come knocking on the door?

JD: [2:40:00] Because that—

AH: I don’t get why one informs the other!

JD: Because that is a f**king irrational and violent f**king manoeuvre!

AH: How does one inform the other?

JD: So a man would want to get out of that area so that he doesn’t get so f**king angry that he actually does pop the f**king wife!

AH: How does one inform the other?

JD: Oh, man. Go home and listen to the tape. Please, that’s what they’re for.

AH: Yes, you listen to the f**king tape.

JD: Oh, I’m gonna.

AH: So will I.

[No talking for half a minute, until 2:41:10.]

AH: I’m not gonna sit here and promise you that I’ll never get mad at you or that you’ll never f**k up. I know you wanna live in a land, in a world where everyone just says yes to you and doesn’t question you or criticize you ever—

JD: Don’t insult me like that, please.

AH: But that’s not the case, it’s not why you’re with me. I am honest with you. I’m sorry you don’t wanna be held accountable, I get it.

JD: I’m not sure you’re so honest with me.

AH: Well, that’s your—

JD: Watching you lie in front of Travis last night was really a spectacle.

AH: Yeah, that’s your problem, and that’s your whole thing that you’ve created.

JD: That’s my problem, but my problem’s that you don’t trust me? What the f**k is going on in there, man?

AH: No, I don’t trust you in this. I don’t trust you in this, and I want the trust back.

JD: You don’t trust me in our marriage? Well, what is everything we’re talking about? Our marriage.

AH: Tell me if you wanna stop talking, then just tell me. Just tell me.

JD: You’re saying you don’t trust me personally, or you don’t trust me in the marriage? What? I don’t understand what’s so different? Tell me the difference, please.

AH: I think I have, in the last few hours now.

JD: No, I think you could probably explain it to me a little better. I’m slow.

AH: You wanna keep being an a*shole?

JD: Do I wanna keep being an a*shole?

AH: Stop the attitude.

JD: It’s a redundant question.

AH: Stop the attitude.

JD: I should stop the attitude, okay, sure, no problem.

AH: Stop!

JD: No problem.

AH: So, I’m not gonna sit here and go over every fight we’ve had. I’m not gonna re-fight this fight. You have something you’re holding onto about Travis? F**king go! Go f**king… go f**k! You know, go do it, go run away together! I don’t know what you’re f**king holding onto, but you have created that. I have no part of that. I don’t know what you’ve f**king latched onto in your brain – what stray hairs have f**king comingled and tangled in your brain to make you think you’ve really figured some sort of thing out – but this is not unusual for you. It’s like almost every fight I could pretty much guarantee you’ll find something that you can, like, manipulate and twist into something.

JD: Let’s ask Travis tonight, if you told him—

AH: Yes, why don’t we invite Travis into our f**ked-up, broken-a*s, three-f**king-wheeled truck of a marriage? Why don’t we crash it straight into the wall? BECAUSE NO ONE KNOWS US BETTER THAN F**KING TRAVIS!

JD: You’re just afraid that the truth will come out.

AH: WHAT TRUTH?

JD: That you lied.

AH: WHAT ARE YOU F**KING TALKING ABOUT? I DIDN’T F**KING EVEN HAVE A F**KING THING TO LIE ABOUT! WHAT ARE YOU F**KING TALKING ABOUT? EVERY F**KING FIGHT, THERE’S A NEW THING THAT YOU’VE CONVINCED YOURSELF IS A LIE!

JD: No, I said to you: “Amber, tell Travis what you just did.”

AH: [laughs and claps]

JD: “Did you just f**king punch me in the f**king jaw? Did you f**king kick… did you? Did you?” And you wouldn’t say a f**king— You said, “I don’t know what you’re talking about, never f**king happened.”

AH: Course I lied! I see the lie. I see the lie. You really should run with this. In fact, maybe you and Travis can, like, go and, like, you know, do a tell-all about what a –

JD: Hey, stop.

AH: You know, an investigative study!

JD: Stop with the attitude, right?

AH: Sorry.

JD: Stop with the attitude.

AH: Sorry.

JD: You’re getting all bunched up.

AH: Sorry. Sorry. It’s so f**king pointless, and you know it, to sit here and fight about f**king whatever you think happened with Travis – That wasn’t a conversation, we were fighting.

JD: No, listen, I was not high.

AH: I’m not going to—

JD: You lied your a*s off.

AH: YOU ARE F**KING FULL OF S**T! WHAT LIE?

JD: Lied your a*s off.

AH: When? Hmm? What conversation did I have with Travis, huh? [2:45:00] Big big investigative study you’ve done?

JD: No, I was in a situation with you—

AH: I’m not sitting here fighting with you about the fight that we had last night.

JD: After you f**king got physically violent with me, I texted Travis. I said “Come up here”, because I didn’t want anything to happen—

AH: I know, “come and save me”. I mean yeah…

JD: Come and what, save me?

AH: No, go ahead, continue. Travis to the rescue…

JD. No, that was the last one. You can go. You can go. That was the last insult.

AH: Yeah? You called me a liar and yet you’re –

JD: I watched you lie.

AH: You called me a liar!

JD: I watched you lie. I heard it, I was right there.

AH: Bulls**t, there’s no – what – YOU STILL HAVEN’T TOLD ME WHAT LIE IT IS! BUT YET, EVERY SINGLE F**KING TIME—

JD: We’ll talk to Travis.

AH: YOU KNOW YOU DO THIS EVERY SINGLE F**KING TIME.

JD: We’ll talk to Travis.

AH: I’M NOT F**KING TALKING TO NOBODY! F**K THAT!

JD: No, because you f**king—

AH: You can go f**king, go jerk him off! I don’t care, I really could care less. It’s you every single time: you latch onto some sort of thing, when I already told you, I don’t know what you’re f**king talking about. You don’t even know what you’re talking about. You still haven’t even told me what it is. But run with it – you run with it!

JD: I have told you what it is.

AH: No you haven’t!

JD: I said to Travis, I said—

AH: Who f**king cares?

JD: No, I said to you, “Hey, tell Travis what just happened.”

AH: Well, you told me to do it!

JD: Yeah.

AH: You told me to, you said “Go do that!”

JD: I said, no, “tell him what just happened.”

AH: AND I LIED!

JD: That you punched me in the f**king thing— in the face—

AH: YOU’RE RIGHT! YOU FIGURED IT ALL OUT!

JD: And you said, “No I didn’t, what the f**k are you talking about?”

AH: I didn’t punch you.

JD: And I watched you lie. And then I said— and then I –

AH: I didn’t punch you, by the way.

JD: You punched me.

AH: I’m sorry that I didn’t hit you across the face in a proper slap, but I was hitting you, it was not punching you. BABE, YOU’RE NOT PUNCHED!

JD: Don’t tell me what it feels like to be punched!

AH: I know, you’ve been in a lot of fights, you’ve been around a long time, I know, I know. Yeah, I know.

JD: No! When you f**king have a closed fist—

AH: You didn’t get punched, you got hit! I’m sorry I hit you like this. BUT I DID NOT PUNCH YOU. I DID NOT F**KING DECK YOU. I F**KING WAS HITTING YOU. I DON’T KNOW WHAT THE MOTION OF MY ACTUAL HAND WAS, BUT YOU’RE FINE, I DID NOT HURT YOU, I DID NOT PUNCH YOU, I WAS HITTING YOU!

JD: How are your toes?

AH: What am I supposed to do, do this?

JD: How are your toes?

AH: I’M NOT SITTING HERE BITCHING ABOUT IT, AM I? YOU ARE!

JD: Oh, your poor toes.

AH: THAT’S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ME AND YOU, YOU’RE A F**KING BABY!

JD: Because you start physical fights?

AH: YOU ARE SUCH A BABY! GROW THE F**K UP, JOHNNY!

JD: Because you start physical fights?

AH: I did start a physical fight.

JD: Yeah, you did, so I had to get the f**k out of there.

AH: Yes, you did, so you did the right thing, the big thing – you know what, you are admirable! EVERY single time! What’s your excuse when there’s not a physical fight, then what’s the excuse then?

JD: [inaudible]

AH: You’re still being admirable, right, just by running away? And you can sit here and call me names, but you get called a name and what do you do? “THAT’S THE LAST INSULT!” YOU’RE A BABY! YOU ARE A HYPOCRITE! YOU DON’T DO ANYTHING THAT YOU ACTUALLY DO. YOU EXPECT FROM PEOPLE WHAT YOU CAN’T GIVE THEM. IF THEY DO SOMETHING, A TASTE OF IT TO YOU, YOU F**KING LOSE IT! BUT YET YOU DISH IT OUT! Have a Xanax, just in case you need it. I think it’s been worn off, maybe.

JD: What are you doing with this?

AH: I’m giving you a Xanax. In case you need it.

JH: Oh, thank you.

AH: Seems like it’s worn off.

JD: Yeah, it probably has.

AH: I love you and I’ve told you a million times in this conversation how much I love you. I do love you. And I’ve fought for this marriage, and I’ve fought for you. And, if you don’t do the same, well ever, I don’t feel okay. I got married to you for the foundation, so we could start a, put up a foundation – not so that it could be a transient thing that we throw around at each other or run away from. But I haven’t been even able to have, like, a fight with you beyond – in any real talking kind of speaking context in so long, because any time anything goes wrong you split. I feel like it’s your first thing, and it’s unnecessary. [2:50:00] It’s not always you’re splitting ’cause there’s blows or because there’s yelling or anything. You split many, most times when I’m still speaking in this volume, and nothing has been thrown or hit or anything. I’m telling you what I need for this. I wanna feel the trust, and I can with you, I know I can, and I have felt it with you. But it’s been destroyed by constantly being reminded that you take me for granted, or that you don’t see this as a permanent thing, for better or for worse. I feel, genuinely, that you are here in this marriage and committed to this marriage, for the better, and really not for the worse. You can’t say the same about me. I fight even when I feel terrible, I show up, I pursue, I give you space, I have done everything to really show how committed I am. You know I am. I’m here for god’s sake.

JD: And I haven’t?

AH: No, not when it’s tough, not when it’s hard, not when it’s worse. This is the biggest – this is the grandest gesture you’ve shown me in a long time, is by sitting in one place and actually facing some of the stuff we need to talk about. This is the biggest gesture you’ve given me in a very long time. It means a lot, of course, but it should be mutual, I know. I know there’s things that I need to do different. I want to make you happy as a man. I know I can change certain things that are… hurting you. But I can’t blame myself entirely for going straight to the f**king finish line, the first sign of stress yesterday. Because of how it’s been lately, well, since Australia. And I have been on the road with you, I haven’t been working – I don’t know what else I could f**king do!

JD: Since Australia, we’ve gone on our honeymoon and we had a great time – other than the fact that we had a fight on the train, which was physical.

AH: Yeah, yeah.

JD: Then we had a fight in San Francisco. But I thought everything else was great. You’re saying you’ve been pondering this since Australia?

AH: No, the splitting. The—

JD: Me splitting?

AH: Like, the lack of – you know, I even said this. It was in Australia, I said, I feel like we were so good for so long and we’d talk about things. Remember we were allowed to have fights then? Remember we allowed ourselves to say “hey, you did this, or you took—”? Remember, we would even have a little argument and it was okay, it was an argument? I don’t know what the f**k has CHANGED! I can’t figure it out! And I don’t mean to criticize anything that you do, but it’s so chronic with you. The changes in personality – it’s like sometimes you get these clarity – clear months and you’re this different person, and it’s wonderful, you’re this, you’re this. And then sometimes I’m like STRUGGLING TO STAY CONNECTED WITH YOU, STRUGGLING TO HAVE FIVE MINUTES WITH YOU, STRUGGLING TO CONNECT WITH YOU, STRUGGLING TO HAVE MY FRIENDSHIP WITH YOU, AND I CAN’T FIGHT WITH YOU. You know it’s like, but they’re so chronic that I have to go, what the f**k has changed? What thing has changed? Do you not remember how different –? You were so different, you were so – you allowed me to – you were so present.

JD: I allowed you to what?

AH: You were so present, and we were allowed to fight – not even fight, we had arguments. You weren’t like this: mood swings, up, down, like, REALLY aggressive and really cool and calm. I mean, you’ve given me this time here on the couch and it’s amazing that we can actually talk, but I NEVER feel that safe! I constantly feel like, you’re about to f**king split. And I don’t wanna feel like that, you make me feel meaningless.

JD: You threw me out of the bedroom last night.

AH: Yeah, why wouldn’t I, if I know that you’re about to split? I mean that’s what I’m saying, you always split!

JD: I wasn’t about to split.

AH: You always split! So that’s – why wouldn’t – I mean, I do blame myself for my actions yesterday but I also don’t think—

JD: I was laying in bed watching television, man. I was laying in bed watching television.

AH: I f**ked up last night. I’m not gonna defend myself. But I also can’t blame me going to the finish line when that’s always where you drive it, you know.

JD: But you’re saying you thought I was – you were sure I was gonna split?

AH: Always! I mean, that’s just — yes – you always –

JD: Why would I split if I’m laying in the bed with you watching television?

AH: [2:55:00] Because any fight – any time I tell you that I’m unhappy with anything, and it’s typically the same thing – any time I voice a complaint. I’m not allowed to have a complaint, I’m not allowed to think anything of it. I’ve told you this a thousand times. A thousand times I’ve said this to you, in calm and in fights. Baby, I don’t feel like I’m allowed to just have a point. And you aren’t allowing me the luxury of us just being a normal human couple – it’s like as soon as you get mad, you take off on a train. Remember I even asked you, is it about Adderall? Are you doing too much? I know it makes one edgy, it makes one, like, temperamental, could it be too much? What – is it the alcohol? It doesn’t seem like it, unless it’s like in Toronto where it just became that, but in general it hasn’t been a problem so much. So, I don’t know what, like, what changed. I mean, I’m sure it’s something because it’s not –

JD: It’s the same—

AH: It’s CHEMICAL, it’s strong.

JD: It’s the same—

AH: It’s. One day you were different… [snaps fingers]

JD: It’s the same—

AH: And it hasn’t been back.

JD: It’s the same changes that are happening in you. It’s exactly the same.

AH: I wish, I wish.

JD: Huh?

AH: I really wish that was the case.

JD: That is the case.

AH: I have always allowed you to f**k up and be a human. I’ve always been able to have a communication with you. You – the difference is – you make it so we cannot even communicate at all, if it’s anything negative. You go, you take off on a train, you don’t get off, you don’t calm down, you don’t come back around, you don’t honour when you say “I just want a few minutes or I want a little time but I’ll be back.” You don’t assuage the anxiety and the stress that that gives me and makes things worse with me by saying “Hey, I will, we will—” Remember Kipper was like, you have to say “I will be back in this amount of time, more or less”, and then actually honour it, you have to come back! So, I said “oh my God, if he could do that, that would be great.” And you never do it! You know, you don’t ever honour that, you leave me with way more anxiety, stress, anger, and resentment. But in Australia for a few months you were so…

JD: So were you. It makes a difference. I wasn’t being attacked!

AH: I am that! I’M NOT. I HAVE NOT ATTACKED YOU ANY DIFFERENT, I HAVEN’T CHANGED! I’VE NOT ATTACKED YOU ANY DIFFERENT! I NEVER ATTACKED YOU, I NEVER ATTACK YOU. Just ’cause I have a complaint with something you did is not an attack, baby!

JD: It becomes verbally insulting, it becomes all kinds of s**t, it becomes –

AH: At what point?

JD: Like, right at the get-go, yeah.

AH: At the very beginning. See, that’s the problem. If you see any criticism as a verbal assault, of course we have this problem. We’re gonna have it next time you do – God forbid I have a problem with something you do. We’re gonna be in this situation, are you ready for it?

JD: Say it nice. Say it nice, man.

AH: What if I’m hurt? Am I not allowed to be hurt and be human? That’s the thing, you’re not allowing me to be human then. You take my humanity from me.

JD: You’re talking about –

AH: You’re telling me I’m not allowed to feel things.

JD: You’re talking about –

AH: And I’m not allowed to react, because – to protect you.

JD: Last night happened because I was at Issac’s for too long. Next door.

AH: It happened because we could not communicate.

JD: And for what? For what? What did we gain from this fight, from me just, you know the horrible f**king act of me being over at Issac’s for just too long for you.

AH: I did not cause this because you were at Issac’s. I mean, you lie to yourself, go ahead, you’re just lying to yourself.

JD: Then why were you upset last night?

AH: This did not happen ’cause of Issac’s. This happened because we’re fighting. This is not about Issac’s. We actually haven’t really even talked about that, we spent two seconds on it. Because, you know it’s not about that, you know it’s bigger than that. The point is, I voiced a complaint, it could be anything. I could say, “baby, you did something to hurt me”, which you did, and you admitted—

JD: Why don’t you say that?

AH: You admitted that you would feel that way too.

JD: Yes.

AH: And you said sorry for it. That would have been great, but I could not feel safe saying that to you. Because I knew that your reaction would very likely be a defensive explosion, and an attack, and freak out, and get up, and walk away, and all this stuff. So I wanted to avoid it, so I took an Ambien to try and go to sleep without even having to speak to you about it, because I was really hurt that you f**king left me stranded and you didn’t think about me, and you didn’t text me. All the things that you apologized for. You already apologized for it. Can you do me one small favour and not take it back?

JD: I ain’t taking it back.

AH: Then stop defending it please. You already apologized for it, it meant a lot to me. Do me one favour today, don’t take that back.

JD: What did I just say?

AH: This isn’t about Issac and you know it.

JD: Hm?

AH: [3:00:00] This isn’t about Issac and you know it. It is about us not allowing—

JD: Is it about me showering?

AH: No, it’s about you not allowing me to have any problems with you, or be upset at you, or mad at you, or even hurt by you at all. You do not allow it.

JD: If you could have just said in a kinder way, a nicer way like “Listen, I feel f**ked over by what you f**king just did.”

AH: And you wouldn’t freak out?

JD: No, I would say “what is it, like what?” “F**king too long at Issac’s, you said you wouldn’t be that long or whatever, you shouldn’t, I feel stranded, I felt f**king left”, whatever. I’m not gonna – why am I gonna fight with that, why I would get mad at that?

AH: My God, the first thing you’d do is: “I don’t have to text you.” And I mean you would just be – it would be s**tty, it would be a fight, it would be terrible, it would not be—

JD: It was a fight.

AH: Yeah, it was.

JD: It was a fight, and it shouldn’t have been, and –

AH: Then…?

JD: The Issac thing was the impetus because that was a lot of what you’ve said today.

AH: It was the impetus, but it’s just a small example of a bigger thing, and you know it’s bigger.

JD: Okay, so it’s a bigger thing, it’s coming from back in Australia?

AH: No, it’s like, Australia we were allowed to have fights. I can’t. You can’t sit here and tell me I can’t feel things, and I can’t voice them to you. If we say to each other “you can’t get mad, and you can’t be hurt by the other”, then we’re living in a f**king motherf**king fairytale land.

JD: Look, of course, nobody is able to – and shouldn’t – hold s**t in. But we can go to the other person, and say “Look, man, I feel f**ked, I feel s**t, I feel this, I feel that.” And then we can assess how you feel: “Well f**k, I guess, oh s**t, I see what you mean, you know I see what you mean, I get it.” Or, f**king “I don’t get it, I don’t understand what you’re saying, and you’re wrong, and you’re this, whatever.”

AH: But it’s going to be the latter, and it’s been the latter for months now, where that’s your reaction is not ever, ever admitting wrong, ever doing anything wrong, EVER admitting it—

JD: That’s not true.

AH: You always go straight to “you’re wrong, f**k you” kind of thing. You don’t say “f**k you” all the time right away, but I’m saying—

JD: You’re saying “always”, huh?

AH: Like for months now, it’s been: I can’t voice any complaints, I can’t say “I feel f**ked over”, I can’t say “I’m hurt”, I can’t say “you f**ked up”, I can’t be mad at you, I can’t be hurt, nothing. ’Cause I’m the bad guy: “OH, WELL I’M ALWAYS F**KING UP— YOU’RE ALWAYS ON ME AND I’M ALWAYS F**KING UP!” And, you know, like, getting mad at me for being honest with you! We’ve had a million fights where I’m like “I was honest with you, I told you how I felt. I mean, if you were me, wouldn’t you feel bad?” “Yeah.” OKAY, WELL THEN, WHAT THE F**K? We had these few months when we actually could even feel things and fight and it was an argument. But you don’t ever like – I don’t know what’s changed, but it’s like you can’t ever just make it short and get over it. You can’t, it’s like you get on something and you will not get off of it. Hence why, I’m always going to you in fights, for hours, trying to get you to calm down: “Please can we talk, please, ’cause I don’t wanna go to bed that way.” And you told me you don’t want to go to bed that way either, yet you wanna f**king do this all night long and make it an all-night thing, by disappearing for hours at a time, and then when I come to you I’m the bad guy. I feel f**king alone, I feel like you’re NOT f**king helping, you’re NOT f**king doing anything in fights, you’re NOT overcoming yourself, you’re NOT overcoming yourself. Every one of these fights could have been so short. Why aren’t you doing some of the work? Why aren’t you coming to me and saying “look, olive branch”? Why aren’t you saying “I’m sorry, bigger picture, let’s look at the bigger picture”? Why aren’t you doing any of this stuff? Have you noticed that you’re not?

JD: Do you remember thanking me for doing that, actually recently?

AH: Uh, no.

JD: “Thank you for being the bigger person, thank you for coming and apologizing to me, thank you.”

AH: Wait, I’m sorry, when?

JD: Uhhhh… was it, I don’t know, honeymoon or Venice?

AH: Still, it’s an example. I don’t remember which one it is, but—

JD: I’m really sorry I don’t remember exactly, but—

AH: No, no, no, I wasn’t, I wasn’t questioning you, I’m sure it happened. I’m just—

JD: Are you saying—?

AH: I just don’t remember that one time, but I’m saying the majority of the time. And if you wanna argue with that, then we’ll never see eye to eye. [3:05:00] I think you and I both know the truth. The majority of times, you cannot calm yourself, and it’s me trying – whether I’m hurt, whether I’m mad, whether you’ve just told me you hate me, in my eyes – I’m the one trying to get you to calm down, trying to get an olive branch, trying to not make it an all-night thing, trying to get over it, trying to see the bigger picture. Even if I’m hurt, I’m still trying to do it because I see the bigger picture. You lose the bigger picture every time. And if you wanna stay married to me, you need to figure out if you EVER, I mean if you think you can – If you’re going to lose sight of the bigger picture and only be my husband when it’s easy, you’re only gonna be there for the ups, never the downs, you’re only gonna be there for health, not sickness, every time it gets hard. You lose the big picture and you can’t think about anything else but breaking up, divorce, fighting, splitting, running away. If you can’t be the one to come around sometimes and see the bigger picture, and know that it’s not worth fighting for days – if you can’t do that too, we’ll walk – we need to walk away. I don’t wanna walk away, I don’t wanna end this.

JD: But do you not think you instigate the same thing?

AH: I’m not talking about instigating, I’m talking about ending.

JD: But ending – you don’t—

AH: I’m talking about ending.

JD: Yeah, but you don’t always do that. You don’t always end up to be the one saying—

AH: Remember when you pointed out an example and I said I couldn’t settle on the full list.

JD: What you do is, in the morning you say “I’m sorry”.

AH: No, I do it at night. Whether it’s night or day, I’ve done both. I come to you every single time.  On the plane I came to you. In Venice I came to you. In Toronto I came to you. In, what do you call it, San Francisco I came to you. I pull you into the bed, or I hug you, and I get us to calm down. And I’m glad I do, because that’s what makes it not be an all-night thing! And nothing harms our marriage more than sleeping in different beds ’cause we’re mad at each other, or going to bed mad at each other! We made a promise – you didn’t keep that promise – but we did make a promise to not do that. It was your choice not to live up to that problem – promise, not mine. I tried to get you to come to bed when you were mad. I tried to get you to calm down so many times in Toronto.

JD: Toronto was rough.

AH: In Toronto, in Venice, in San Fransisco, I would come to the seven different bathrooms if you were – and try. Throughout, whether I was mad or hurt or not, because I saw the bigger picture. I did think it was worth this. I’m always the one trying to end it. You never let go of things. You constantly, constantly do this.

JD: I’m sorry you feel that way.

AH: You’re NEVER the one coming to me and saying “let’s not fight any more.” You’re NEVER the one saying “come, just get into bed, let’s not go to bed mad like that”. On the PLANE, it was me. In TORONTO, it was me. IT’S ALWAYS ME!

JD: On the plane here from Rio—

AH: You don’t want to admit it. Think about it.

JD: You were losing your marbles.

AH: Think about it.

JD: I’m the one who came to you and said: “Listen, calm down, please calm down.” And you were blaming me—

AH: Think about it.

JD: …because your flight was gonna get in late, and you wouldn’t be able to have time before your thing.

AH: Think about it. Just think about it, the majority of our fights, you haven’t.

JD: No, absolutely, okay, I’ll admit that, yeah.

AH: Thankyou.

JD: The majority of our fights, I hang on to it because, it’s f**king hard to let go of. Some of the s**t that you go through in a fight can be painful, and it’s hard to forget s**t.

AH: Yeah, no s**t, but if you want to keep doing this, and live a life where you constantly are using that as ammunition with which you can shoot yourself in the f**king head, then fine, okay. But at least admit you’re doing that. If you want to hold on to everything and never get over it and never let go of it, then don’t scratch your head and go, “I wonder why I’m so aggressive when you point out anything I did wrong. I wonder why I have so much resentment for you. I wonder why we fight so much.” Stop scratching your head in wonder, and just admit, it is because you never let a f**king thing go, you can’t get over anything, and that you won’t and cannot calm yourself down when you’re mad.

JD: So it’s all my fault?

AH: No. It’s not. It’s not.

JD: Yet you sit here and find blame in everything that I do? But you never say a thing about yourself.

AH: I think I’ve included myself.

JD: You copped it last night?

AH: I have included myself. I admit that it’s not all your fault. It’s not all your fault. I have made so many mistakes. But what I’m talking about, I’m not guilty of, I’m not. I do let things go. I move this relationship forward. I fight for us when it’s on the line. I do let things go. I see the bigger picture.

JD: You said you — you said—

AH: I’m tired.

JD: I’m tired too, man. You said you see the bigger picture, and you do let things go.

AH: Always.

JD: [3:10:00] Yet, after Toronto, you were looking for apartments.

AH: That was a hard one. And I did not say 100% of the time. In no part of this conversation did I say—

JD: And the plane was a f**king hard one, too.

AH: In no part of this conversation did I say I am perfect. I did not claim that.

JD: I know you didn’t.

AH: I’m claiming the vast majority of times, these are the patterns, and I own them. I’m right, you know it, you don’t have to admit it, but you know what I’m saying is true. I’m able to see the bigger picture throughout, when I’m mad or hurt, I do mean for better or worse. I have honoured my word to not leave. You ditched me last night and I understand. I understand how s**tty that got. And I understand my part in it. But it is a reaction to this f**king situation we’ve created. And it’s about to crack. And I’m trying. I can’t. I can be better, but I can’t be the one who [inaudible] all the time. I also don’t want to, it makes me unhappy, it makes me [inaudible], and then that’s the trust I’m talking about.

JD: Like I said, the last thing in the world I want is for you to be unhappy, or for me to let you down.

AH: I know.

JD: Well, I do, and—

AH: If you can—

JD: I do make you unhappy, and I do let you down.

AH: Only you know if you can change it or do better. I know you’re not perfect. I’ve seen you be pretty d**n close. I’ve seen you do better than this. I’ve seen you control yourself more. I’ve seen you react less. I’ve seen you be less – I’ve seen you have way more control over yourself. You’re so f**king edgy and you get so mad so fast, and you stay mad. I’ve seen this happen before, and I’ve also seen you better. I’ve seen you clearer, I’ve seen you better. I’ve seen you do better, I mean don’t let me down, and I subsequently would do better and let you down less. But I’m not changing how I do things, you’re changing how you do things. This is dramatic change, and it’s been a few months now. And I’m begging you, now is the time. If you choose to stop it, f**king great, I will be –I’ll be with you to change. But I can’t set myself up to be the only one to keep promises, and then wind up in another situation like Toronto, where you’re booking me a room, or trying to get me on a flight, or I’m not saying mean things and I’m hearing all this s**t and I’m not defending myself, and I’m coming to you saying “I love you and I’m trying to protect you from yourself”, and I get destroyed. I can’t do it again. I won’t ever survive through that again. And I don’t want to. It made me unhappy.

JD: I don’t want to. And I don’t want you to.

AH: When you leave me like that.

JD: I don’t want you to be unhappy.

AH: Instead of just – like – you can’t leave the house.

JD: You’re saying, you’re saying, to me that for a long time I was able to keep everything together, and when we fought, like, be cool —

AH: Do you remember?

JD: Yeah, exactly. And it was for a while, right?

AH: Yeah! Yeah, it was,

JD: So—

AH: And we could have arguments! It was like, okay, normal.

JD: But—

AH: Now, we can’t have an argument, no, uh-uh!

JD: Right. But there was one or two in Australia where I was calm-headed and all that s**t. But, I mean, what am I reacting to? If I’m, you know, if I’m trying to keep a cool head, I’m reacting to you f**king jumping.

AH: No, before I jump. Just a normal argument, baby. This is a little thing.

JD: But there is – but you –

AH: Sometimes you just go “that was rude”, or you snap—

JD: Baby, you tend to jump. You tend to jump.

AH: Okay, alright. This is before the jump. This is like the normal “f**k man, that really f**king sucks, I matter too” – or whatever it is. And it’s not—

JD: You think you don’t matter to me?

AH: That’s not the point. It’s an example.

JD: Sorry.

AH: It’s that there are times when you can make – for months now, consistently you have been—

JD: Well, I had no idea.

AH: I did! I’ve told you a million times. I’ve actually told you probably about five times. “I can’t have a normal complaint.” “I can’t have a normal…” “I can’t have any problems with you.” “Baby, I feel like I can’t tell you anything’s wrong.” “Baby, I feel like I can’t be honest with you.” [3:15:00] “Baby, you’ve gotta relax a little, what the f**k?” “I’ve gotta be able to tell you if something’s wrong.” How many times have you heard me say that? I have told you this. I have also mentioned how different it was in Australia, and begged for whatever that – was it clarity? Was it less Adderall? I don’t know! Was it work? You know, something’s affecting you and I am not judging you. I’m not. In fact, you have elucidated my opinion on medication. Do I not give you your meds every day? Do I not remind you to take them?

JD: Of course.

AH: Do I not? I know that you have to take medication. I am very aware of that. And you have actually changed my mind a bit as to how necessary they can be. I used to kind of think that they were – not superfluous but I don’t know, just—

JD: An escape.

AD: Yeah, and now I don’t think that, and that’s because of you, you know, you changed my opinion about that. But I do know you. And you don’t know moderation very well, you’re allergic to moderation. So, I balance you out, I think, a little bit. I try to keep you safe, I try to keep on you a little bit to remind you to take the good ones, you know! Do I not?

JD: You do. You listen to me—

AH: And do I ever give you a hard time?

JD: No, about the meds? No, you spoil me. Look, you do all those wonderful things. You take my boots off.

AH: I’m not tooting my own horn, I’m just talking about the medication.

JD: No, I’m not. I’m not saying you’re tooting your own horn. I’m saying there are a lot of beautiful and wonderful things that you do for me that I’ve never even dreamt that someone would be so f**king caring as to “hey, baby, it’s time for your meds”. And you know, it’s so beautiful that your wife is, you know doing that. It’s beautiful that, you know, the act of just simply taking my f**king boots off when I get home from work. That is monumental stuff to me. The care throughout the day, you know, “here, drink this vitamin water”. You know, I mean, there are beautiful beautiful beautiful things that I could go on and on about you, about us, about how you’ve made me feel, how you’ve really changed my life.

AH: Thank you for saying that.

JD: But I do not want to be— I don’t want to be a f**king s**thead in your eyes.

AH: Thank you for saying that.

JD: It’s true, man, it’s true.

AH: Thank you.

JD: There are a lot of things.

AH: I know.

JD: There are a lot of positives.

AH: You don’t have to say that.

JD: There are a lot of positives: I’m not just saying it, I’m being honest.

AH: I feel the same way. I meant it.

JD: What?

AH: I meant it, what I said earlier. If you were not my favourite person, it’d be so easy to walk away. For you too I’m sure. God, when I think about all the times it would have been very easy to walk, based on the bad, on the stress, on the fight. But I can’t, because you’re my favourite person, the most beautiful, dynamic, shiny, smart, s*xy thing. I can’t. It’s something you fight for, but I am, I’m trying. I just want to feel safe again, I want the stability. I mean, you meant marriage for life, right? You meant better or worse, all that stuff, even though we didn’t say those words.

JD: Of course, and we did.

AH: “Better or worse”, we didn’t say. Oh, maybe—

JD: Whitney said “for worse”.

AH: She did?

JD: Yeah.

AH: Well then…

JD: Look, it is for better or for worse, for me. It is.

AH: I mean, I feel—

JD: I didn’t leave last night because—

AH: You’re making me feel like it’s not, like you’re not there for worse.

JD: [3:20:00] I left last night, honestly I swear to you, because I just couldn’t take the idea of more physicality, more physical abuse on each other, because had we continued, it would have gotten f**king bad.

AH: I know.

JD: And baby, I told you this once: I’m scared to death of it.

AH: I know.

JD: We are a f**king crime scene waiting to happen, if we don’t get our s**t together. And by getting our s**t together, that might mean, f**king eh, we do this and we make it, that might mean, godd**n, you know, you say “I’ve tried, I’m done, toodaloo.” But we’ve got to get our s**t together as individuals and as a couple. Because I love you and I do not want to leave you, I do not want to divorce, I do not want you out of my life. I just want peace. If I’m the culprit majority of the time, I will f**king do everything I can, and I will recognise when I’m f**king starting to go sideways. I will recognise it. But please do the same, please do the same.

AH: I won’t.

JD: And it’s okay to fight, like you said, it’s okay.

AH: But you’ve gotta – how do you remember that? I mean, how do you know that? Because sometimes you’re so clear as to what is priority to you and what you care about and then, you seem to forget it when you get mad.

JD: I could say the same thing about you, angel.

AH: Sure, sure. But I’m asking you, like what do you do to remind – like, how? if it was just up to self-control, you’d think you would have used it.

JD: That’s why I think the list is important.

AH: Yeah. I want a list though of what—

JD: Two lists. One: here are things that you do that can hurt me or f**k with me or makes me mad or this or that. And you know, we take it without freaking out, just take it and own it and study it. And if we have a different opinion, let’s talk it out a little bit. Let’s talk it out a little bit. And I’ll make a f**king list, you make a f**king list of all the things that you think you do that you’d like to change, the things that I do that I’d like to change. In fact, that’s the first list we should write.

AH: Yeah, I was gonna say this: The first list that you mentioned, it just – Someone once said to me “as soon as you start listing what you don’t like the idea of, the relationship’s over”. Well, they kind of said it as this aside, they were like “well, that’s how you know, when a couple starts doing that, that’s how you know—”

JD: Write me a letter, put it in a little envelope every morning if you want. Or in our little notebook – it’s empty.

AH: What? When you do wrong? That’s terrible.

JD: No, no! Please don’t. “Please love me today, please don’t hurt me today, please don’t get crazy today.”

AH: But then what happens if one of us gets hurt or mad? ’Cause that’s life, it will come up. If we don’t do things differently, then why a list of things that we don’t do? I can’t keep throwing our relationship in the air every time we get mad, because all bets are off every time your blood pressure goes up a certain amount.

JD: Look, these don’t have to be followed through with. These are just things that I suggest, because who gives a f**k if some c**k says, “Oh, as soon as you make a list, it’s like…” F**k that.

AH: I don’t know, it just made sense. But I’ll do it, I just – as soon as—

JD: I mean, look, it doesn’t have to be gross. You’ve just – I mean, I don’t need a list, you’ve just went through the majority, you know, and I’ve went through a lot of mine. But then you don’t have to make the other f**king list. I’ll make the other list.

AH: No, I’m not saying I don’t want to make that list, I agree about that one. [3:25:00] I just want to know what we’re going to do differently and how to help check each other on what the other one needs, so that it doesn’t get to this point. I can’t keep living like this!

JD: Oh, I can’t keep living like this either.

AH: Then well, something needs to change!

JD: I’ve got less time on the f**king planet than you.

AH: Something’s gotta change.

JD: I’m not gonna spend the rest of my life f**king fighting with and being a drag to someone that I f**king adore. I’m not gonna live my life like that, the rest of my f**king days which, you know, f**k what have I got? Who knows, a f**king month, f**king two weeks, godd**n thirty years? I don’t f**king know, but life is short and precious. And I don’t want to f**k up yours, you know, I don’t want you to f**k up mine. I’d like a bit more understanding, from both of us.

AH: That sounds very good, and I agree. But what about the—

JD: In the moment—

AH: What are we going to do different, in the moment? When you’re mad and you go “f**k it”, and you decide all bets are off?

JD: In the moment? Well, look what I did in Australia. Look what I accomplished. I put the f**ker away. I told myself every f**king day, no, he’s gone. No, I f**king put him away, I put him away. And if I list the things that I feel that f**k you over or make you feel s**tty or anything like that, I f**king – when we’re in the moment I remember it, I remember what I put on my list. I remember it, and I try to bring it down notches, many notches. I’ll try, if we’re heightened, to say, “Please, I don’t want you to feel this, I don’t want to feel this. Let’s—”

AH: I need to know what we need to do different! I need to know.

JD: It’s gotta be done with your mind and your heart.

AH: Well, what do we do different if I have a problem?

JD: You tell me.

AH: You need to tell me how to tell you different, if I’m hurting you. You need to let me be able to be mad. Sometimes you’re gonna make me mad! I’m a human, I cannot live where it’s like—

JD: Well then, the same thing goes for me then. You’re gonna have to allow me to get mad.

AH: Yes! Exactly. If I do something that makes you mad—

JD: Okay, but I get mad, then you start f**king yelling.

AH: I don’t have to start yelling. I think I start yelling once it gets f**king heightened. I’ve gotten a lot better about that.

JD: No.

AH: I only start yelling when it’s f**king hour eleven and we’re really in it.

JD: You haven’t gotten better about that. Otherwise, we wouldn’t have had three physical fights in the last month and a half, two months.

AH: I’m sorry about the yelling.

JD: No but — You witnessed it, you’re the one that brought it up. Australia was f**king great, we just argued. Let’s go back there, let’s go back there in our f**king heads and in our hearts. Let’s go back there. And no, on your list—

AH: Is the monster gone? Did you put him away? It’s been so — when you get on that train, you get angry, you stay on it for so long and you won’t come down, you won’t talk to the person that is you.

JD: That’s not – that’s not always – that’s not always been.

AH: It doesn’t have to always be the monster, but what is it? Can you put that away? Can you remember the bigger picture? That you don’t want to spend your life – I’ve asked you this so many times in fights, d’you want to spend your time like this? I know you don’t, but I ask you because this is something you’re choosing! I’m saying to you “olive branch”! And you don’t take my olive branches, you make me feel humiliated for offering them. You asked me to stay in Australia, I stayed, and then you walk out on me all the time. You’ve gotta take some olive branches for me, you’ve gotta offer them too, you’ve gotta be bigger than what you feel at that moment. And so do I! So do I, but if I call you on it, will you hear it?

JD: Yeah.

AH: Will you call me out on it, if I’m doing it?

JD: Oh yes, I will. Yes I will. And I’ll do it in as peaceful a f**king — as calm a manner as I possibly can. [3:30:00] I don’t want to instigate any fights. I do not want to fight, anymore.

AH: Say we’re having an argument and you get mad. How can—?

JD: An argument’s an argument.

AH: Yes, but say we’re we’re having an argument and you get mad, and it escalates, I’m asking how do you talk to the you that’s in front of me right now? What do I need to say? What do I need to do? We don’t want to spend our lives mad like that. It doesn’t mean you have to like what I’m saying or doing or vice versa, but can you calm down?

JD: Can’t you just say: “Baby please, please, please don’t be the monster. Please don’t, let’s not yell, please don’t, you know what I mean? And I’ll do the same.

AH: Promise.

JD: I have done the same.

AH: You promise?

JD: Yeah. Yes. Why would I say it if I didn’t—?

AH: Because sometimes you don’t keep to what you say, and I want this to be different.

JD: So now my word’s not worth anything.

AH: No no no, that’s not the case. It’s just that sometimes when you get mad, it’s like you disconnect from this person that you are right now. And I’m wondering just how to like – what’s the communication? What’s the phone number, you know, for that?

JD: And you? How do I – how do I calm you down when you go into a flurry?

AH: Maybe say – remind me: “Remember what we talked about. Baby, please calm down.”

JD: “Please look at the bigger picture.”

AH: Something that will remind me of this conversation, you know, when I’m upset and I’m feeling like it’s pointless, you know.

JD: Don’t ever lie.

AH: I don’t ever lie. I know you and I remember – see things differently sometimes, but I’m not lying! I – you know, for someone who – I know that’s your deepest fear and that’s why it comes up in fights and stuff, but you’ve got a trust issue in general, in life. I’ve never f**ked you over, and I’m not going to. And anybody who knows me, if they had to list two or three things about me, adjectives about me, one of those three would be “super honest, straightforward, honest”. Everyone else in my life! I know you have trust issues, but you can’t let it cloud you knowing me. Please. It comes up a lot, I know you have an issue with it. It’s not me. You can trust me. If anything—

JD: Say that to me. Say that to me at the time.

AH: What? Say what?

JD: What you just said. Say that stuff to me at the time, if I’m starting to f**king flip when you’re off doing a movie or I’m off doing a movie.

AH: I feel like I do, but I guess I should say it differently, find another way. I’ll pay attention to how I say it.

JD: It depends, yes. Let’s both pay attention to how we talk to each other, to respect each other.

AH: You know, we’re not gonna do that all the time. Sometimes we’re gonna be s**tty or whatever—

JD: Of course not.

AH: But we make a promise to each other, about the rings and no divorce—

JD: The rings, no divorce.

AH: We promise each other.

JD: I promise you.

AH: Because I want so bad to feel like the marriage I worked so hard to make happen is like meaningful.

JD: Don’t talk about making the wedding happen. Talk about the four years we’ve spent together, please.

AH: Yes, but I wanna make – I have those four years no matter what, but – I fought for that wedding, and we had that wedding, that beautiful wedding and for what? If we don’t – I want it to like mean something, that there’s some—

JD: Yeah. It did mean something and it does mean something. And I didn’t get married to you for f**king seventeen more fights and it’s f**king over with. When we got married, I knew the f**king fights weren’t gonna stop, but I thought maybe it would curb them a little.

AH: I wanted the security, back. I freak out. I freak out. I cannot make normal decisions, calm decisions, or ones from the heart where I’m thinking of you more than me, when I feel like you’re splitting on me all the time, and the marriage is on the rocks. I make the same mistake about throwing our marriage around. [3:35:00] I won’t do it again. I’m not gonna do it again, okay? I’m not, I promise. But, there’s something so… anxiety-provoking and scary and malicious and really just turns everything over when you split all the time. Please, if you really don’t wanna fight and you’re not just trying to hurt me – which sometimes it is that – if you really, really, if you really love me and you do care about this, please find a good way to do it, one that’s respectful. You can tell me that you are – you can – I need to know that we will be able to talk about it, because the problem I have is when you don’t communicate, it comes into me, it builds up in me and becomes cancer in me. It got worse every day, when we were back from Toronto. It got worse every single day. Not better, worse. Until we spoke about it, until Whitney’s birthday when you talked about – then it was okay, but I need that. That’s why. I don’t wanna resent you.

JD: I don’t wanna resent you. I don’t wanna not trust.

AH: But you can! You know how many times I’ve chased you out of the elevator in the hall! Let’s stop doing that. I’m not nit-picking, I don’t mean to be focusing on something, but if it’s a major thing to me and it is a major thing—

JD: If things get physical, we have to separate.

AH: No.

JD: We have to be apart from one another, whether it’s for f**king an hour or ten hours or f**king a day. We must. There can be no physical violence towards each other.

AH: I agree about the physical violence, but separating for a day or a night, taking a night off from our marriage, that just means it opens up—

JD: No no no. Listen, I’m just giving examples. It could be f**king three minutes, it could be f**king two weeks. I’m just saying—

AH: I know, but we need to agree on certain boundaries, so we have boundaries again! We need to make agreements and hold each other accountable to them and ourselves accountable to them, which is why I’m even bringing this up.

JD: I’m not—

AH: You know what I mean.

JD: I’m not saying anything negative.

AH: I know.

JD: All I’m saying is, we need to take whatever time we need, you need or I need, to kind of let things settle for a minute, so that we don’t f**king kill each other or f**king worse, you know, f**king like really kill each other, or break up or whatever.

AH: Just don’t – I think that—

JD: Help me, and I’ll help you.

AH: This is the thing that makes me feel unsafe, when you say that, to be honest, this is what makes me not trust.

JD: What’s that?

AH: That’s there like—

JD: Walking away?

AH: No, loopholes. Go take the time you need, take the time you need – “okay fine, every time I get mad at you, I can go split.” Except for, oh wait, I don’t have my own place to go split to.

JD: No, Amber, stop.

AH: You know, it makes me think I should. You know, I don’t have a place I can go – it makes me – I’d have to go to a hotel, you know, and I don’t have the funds to do that, I mean it’s —

JD: That’s not what I’m talking about.

AH: Well, you reckon we should control ourselves and not get physical, and if it gets physical and we’ve dropped that wall, then we’re gonna drop the other one. So it’s maybe like, you’re gonna f**king split or I’m gonna f**king split and this isn’t gonna come back.

JD: You may be right, but you can’t predict the future. Once again, here’s what I’m saying: If the fight escalates to the point of where it’s just insulting, for both of us, or if it gets to that physical f**king s**t, the violence, that’s when we just say: “Look, let’s go to our corners, man. [3:40:00] You hang wherever you want, baby I’m going in the office, and I’m just gonna f**king sit there and try and de-jellify my f**king brain.” And I’m not talking about me running out of the f**king house, I’m not talking about me splitting ’cause I’m a f**king c**t and a coward and whatever. I’m talking about, go to our corners. I’ll go to my little office. You can walk through the house, you can just take the house and wander wherever you want, I won’t f**king come bother you. You know, and if at a point you’re feeling, like, better after ten minutes, come knock on the door. And, and –

AH: And I always do that.

JD: Please let me finish—

AH: Sorry.

JD: And, if in ten minutes I’m feeling like, alright, I’ve got the solution for this or I know how [inaudible], I’ll come knock on your f**king door, or I’ll come find you.

AH: Will you try?

JD: What?

AH: Will you try to not make it an all-night thing?

JD: I’ve just told you—

AH: I wasn’t done. I said, will you try and not make it a lifestyle? I mean, will you try and remind yourself that there can just be fights?

JD: Absolutely.

AH: Will you try and respect that it doesn’t have to be an all-night thing?

JD: Oh, absolutely.

AH: I mean, I don’t want to go to bed mad!

JD: I don’t—

AH: I mean, we were doing really good with each other.

JD: I don’t want –

AH: We didn’t for a long time.

JD: I know. But we weren’t insulting one another to the point of, like, wow, you know, like the way I insulted you in Toronto, or the way you insulted me on the plane or, you know, whenever. Let’s not get to the point. That’s nothing, that’s bulls**t, that’s kindergarten s**t. We don’t f**king need to do that. What we could do is just try to be f**king calm and say “Look, this is really getting somewhere I don’t like. Please let’s take an hour, max.” I’ll go in and f**king write, and try and figure it out, get it out, whatever. I’m just—

AH: Okay.

JD: I’m just making suggestions to try and f**king save us, you know.

AH: Yeah. I agree. We’ve just gotta to honour our promises. I can not – nor can you, you don’t deserve to be in a relationship that is walked away from all the time. You can’t. I would never want you to do that. I never want you to be in that. You deserve better. And so do I. I cannot be constantly, constantly – any time I’m upset or mad or hurt or anything, if I f**k up, God if I yell, if I f**k up ever – ditched! That’s not marriage! You know, most people don’t have two or three houses they can go to! It’s always, I’m in your house, and you always split!

JD: Listen, you can’t be saying that I – if that’s what you feel, you feel that from you, ’cause you didn’t get that from me. I never f**king said “this is my house, and my house only”.

AH: Kind of, but yesterday I –

JD: No. No, it’s our f**king house. It’s our f**king—

AH: No you always remind me that I— forget it.

JD: I’ve got Rocky and Josh living there, I’ve got Whitney living there. So don’t—

AH: But you say it in fights, you use it in fights, and I’m sorry but I feel like – forget it. But I just – I just want – I just want the security and the commitment from you that we have destroyed, both of us. And I don’t know if that matters to you, like personally if you need that—

JD: It absolutely matters to me.

AH: But I do. And I can’t promise you that I’ll be perfect. I can’t promise you I won’t get physical again. God, I f**king sometimes get so mad I lose it. I can f**king promise you that I will do everything to change. I promise you, I’m not gonna throw around divorce, I will not say “divorce”, unless I really mean it. Unless it’s it, and then I hope you leave me. [3:45:00] And me too, I will leave you. That’s fair. I can’t do it, you know, and I think, honestly, if we hold each other accountable to that, it’s fair.

JD: That’s what I said earlier: look, if we get to that point, where it’s like, this is–

AH: It’s a line we don’t cross.

JD: -- too f**king much, let’s, you know, we f**king shake hands and we walk away.

AH: Yes, but you don’t do it until you mean it. That’s my point.

JD: Trust me. I’m not gonna do it unless I mean it.

AH: Promise.

JD: If I say it, I will be leaving. If you say it, I’ll get the f**k out or whatever.

AH: Promise.

JD: Yeah.

AH: That ring does not come off.

JD: Unless I say the word, unless you say the word. Well, or you just take the ring off, ’cause that’s the same thing. That’ll be the same thing.

AH: That’s what I’m saying is, you know, I don’t want out marriage to be something you throw around. In fact, if you want a f**king divorce, you’re gonna tell me not in a fight. Let’s be honest right now, that’s a decision, a lifelong decision, that even you and me as hotheads know you can’t make forever decisions when you’re mad like that. It certainly feels like you can, but you and I both, even though we’re hotheads we do know the difference. However, I think it’s something we should never say to each other in a fight ever. And if you promise me, and I promise you, we need that, we need to hold each other accountable. I don’t know how to feel safe, I have nothing to cling on to. You didn’t come home last night. I feel like I have nothing to cling on to, no semblance of marriage or commitment or stability. You know, I can’t just get up and walk away and spend the night somewhere else.

JD: Obviously, you can.

AH: Yeah, but I believe it’s done if I do that – that’s not marriage.

JD: We’ve talked about it. You know why I left.

AH: I do know why you left. But you—

JD: I’m saying now that I won’t do the same thing. That I will not do that, I will not f**king leave—

AH: Promise?

JD: …until some rational decision is made.

AH: Promise?

JD: If it’s the end, it’s the end. If we can keep going, we’ll keep going. But yeah.

AH: Promise?

JD: Promise, I promise. I promise you. I hope you can trust me.

AH: I want to be in my marriage.

JD: Sorry?

AH: You know I want to be in my marriage. I wanna commit to you forever. Good, bad, better, worse. I don’t want it to be as transient as whatever fight we’re fighting for. I don’t want any loopholes, any “Oh it’s okay to leave, it’s acceptable to do this or it’s acceptable to say this about like splitting or breaking up or leaving.” We should fall asleep together every night. Ideally, never mad, ideally never mad. I’d love to say I could promise that, but I don’t know if it’s possible. I’d love to strive for it.

JD: Yeah. You weren’t ready for that last night, for sure.

AH: No, I f**ked up last night. I’m really sorry.

JD: So let’s understand that we’re guilty of the same s**t at times.

AH: But no one’s saying it more than me though, I am saying that.

JD: Let’s – let’s – let’s –

AH: It’s just chronically overweighed with – and I need that to be something you realize and that you know. And it’s affecting not just me, it’s affecting our marriage. It’s affecting how I trust, how I resent you, how I like you without the fight being happening.

JD: No I know, but when you—

AH: I’m not trying to rub your nose in it, I’m just— I feel sometimes like you’ll admit something, you’ll acknowledge, it’ll be beautiful and then you’ll go back on it, kind of in your vocabulary after. [3:50:00] And then I feel like: “Wait a second, is he taking it back?” You know what I mean?

JD: I do know you mean, but like I said before, I don’t have the – I haven’t cornered the market on that. You know, when you start the f**king yelling, it f**king gets crazy, you know? It gets f**king crazy, you know? And that makes me not feel, for lack of a better word, safe within the relationship.

AH: Mmm.

JD: You know, understanding of “oh well, it’s just nothing”, ’cause if it keeps going, if it’s always sorta there, then you know, I worry, yeah, I f**king worry about the marriage. I worry “how much longer can I deal with this? How much longer can she deal with this?” F**k, man.

AH: Mm-hm.

JD: So I’ve had the same trust issues, I’ve had the same disappointments, I’ve had the same, you know – maybe not to the degree you have, I’m assuming, but yeah, man, when you start f**king honking, you know what I mean, it’s pretty—

AH: Then help me. Help me. Call it out. Call me out on it and help me.

JD: I will, I will try.

AH: Help me realize it. I might not even realize I’m doing it, but you’ve gotta help me.

JD: I will try.

AH: But it can’t be an excuse to leave.

JD: I will try to help you. If I try to help you, and I can help you, why the f**k would I leave? But if I try to help you, and I can’t help you, that’s it baby, I’m taking an hour, I’m in my f**king office.

AH: Yes, yes, yes.

JD: If you wanna talk, you wanna come get me. Otherwise, I’ll come check on you in an hour. Alright?

AH: That would be really helpful.

JD: Alright?

AH: And I promise you I’ll leave you alone for that hour. I promise you I’m not gonna freak out.

JD: I just want you to have your time to be able to calm down, or my time to be able to calm down.

AH: But it really helps if you – if you give a time, if it’s not just—

JD: I said an hour.

AH: Even if you just say, “I promise we’ll resume this.” I just need to know that we will talk about it. Otherwise, I’m dealing with cancer. I’m dealing with something that just festers and gets worse and worse. So you have to realize that, in that kind of situation, a few minutes is fine, but then after a certain point it becomes way worse and I become way harder to reason, to rationalize with. I become – Kipper can tell you, he says he’s the same way. I just, that’s how I work, and you work a very different way. So we need to meet in the middle, you know?

JD: Yeah. I do understand now, I do understand all that. But I also want you to understand that, you know there were great moments, there were high hopes that it was just all cool. And then whatever happens, this happens, that happens, we have a spat or a fight or a f**king blow-up. I just want you to know that the way you’re feeling – about being unsure of us, of the marriage, of this, whether you can trust me to be this, or whether I can do the same – I feel very much the same.

AH: At least you have the added luxury that you take for granted – no offence, you do—

JD: What do I take for granted?

AH: That you have the added luxury of knowing that I’m there, and that I mean it forever. ’Cause I show up, I come, I’m knocking, I’m the one who asks to calm down—

JD: Look—

AH: I’m the one that comes and gets you on the plane, I’m the one that comes and knocks at the bathroom door, I’m the one that comes into the house that you’ve run away to. I’m the one that comes to you and says “This isn’t worth it, let’s fight for this marriage” or whatever. You have an added luxury that you just are taking for granted in such a big way, and you don’t know how much that means. [3:55:00] If I ran from you the way I used to, from the marriage, we would not be together. When I used to run away when you whatever, when I felt like it was justified, I mean how many times would we almost break up? How terrible was that? How terrible was it for you? We would not be together if I did that. And you take it for granted that I show up, and that I fight for us, and that I am the one to come over, I’m the one that comes out into the hall. I am the one. I have a hot head just like you, but what a luxury you have. If you take that for granted, you’re so – what a luxury. I’d do anything to have that feeling, at least in the back of my mind I’d know that you would show up, that you fought for me, that you cared enough to—

JD: Here’s what you’re missing in that little, you know, paragraph. What you’re missing is – you’re the one who comes and gets me, you’re the one that comes and says you’re sorry, you’re the one that comes and tries to calm me down, you’re the one – but why am I riled up?

AH: We’re BOTH riled up. It’s not like every time I’ve done something to you in a vacuum! Baby, that’s what you don’t get. I don’t doubt you’re riled up, but I’m riled up too. And I said this to you on the couch, I’ve said this to you before: we both have our – it’s subjective. You have your reasons. I have my reasons. For every action, there is something that caused it. And I have the same thing! I’m mad in the same way!

JD: But what caused it? What caused it could be so irrational and so far-fetched and so minute, minute.

AH: That’s what I say to you every time that you want to have a big fight. Every time I go “This could be something small. Why wasn’t this just an argument? Baby, why wasn’t this just an argument?” Yes, so you’re right: sometimes it could be very small. Sometimes it’s not. Either way, it doesn’t negate what I’m saying to you. Oh, what a gift! Like, I would do anything to trade places with you. You talk about insecurity in relationships and trust—

JD: I don’t know how you can say I’m taking you for granted, that’s a f**king insult, man.

AH: But you talk about trust – but you talk about trust, and you feel the same way – you don’t feel the same! You couldn’t! Because the difference is, you at least have the knowledge in the back of your head that you can fall back on – that I showed up, that I fought for you, that I checked on you, that I came to get you, that I said I loved you, that I saved the marriage – if it were up to you, and I treated you the way you treated me, we would not be together. Let’s face it, it’s because I f**king fight for this, it’s because I come over, and last time I didn’t, which is what I should always do, and I am learning my f**king lesson: it’s just, when you walk, f**king let you walk. And I, that time… I can’t tell you how done I was. It was like this time in Toronto. I was looking for apartments, I was preparing to tell my parents, my folks, my parents, I was done. And you called me and you’re like “well, I’m about to go out of town” or whatever, and it ended up like whatever. I told you I wasn’t ready to see you, because it had gotten so much worse that I was basically – I was like “I need to, I just need to change my life, my life is different, I am no longer with this person, and I’m now single, I need to get my s**t together, find an apartment, do all that stuff.” It got so much worse, and honestly if that happens one more time, we will break up. I know it, I know we won’t survive it. That was so severe.

JD: Which one?

AH: The damage was so severe, when you spent a week here. You said “I’m gonna go away for a day.” You wrote me a note and left it on the kitchen counter, and you said “I just need to clear my head for a night, maybe two.” I didn’t hear from you for six.

JD: Oh, when I went with Bruce?

AH: No, this is here. You came here, I stayed downtown. This is, you were gone for six, seven days. And then I didn’t even let you spend the night in the house, remember? You came over, we talked, I wasn’t even ready – No, you know how long it took me to take down those walls that I built up? It took forever to build those. It took me so long to trust you, even a little bit again. I was so – I resented you so much, the damage was very deep. And I know that if I let that happen again, in my heart, I know we wouldn’t survive it. So, you walk out, and I have one option. That’s why I come to you. If I let it go, like I did last time, which is what I should do, because if you’re willing to walk out, you should be walking out. But I let it go, and it was a f**king week. And it took – and I’ll never get some of that back. [4:00:00] I’ll never have that trust quite the same way. You left me a note saying “I’m gonna be gone for a night”, and we didn’t speak for a week. I didn’t even hear from you, you didn’t check on me, nothing!

JD: So you thought we were broken up?

AH: Oh yeah, I was preparing to have that conversation with you and be done.

JD: Oh, but you just said you were single.

AH: No, I said I was preparing myself to think that way, you know, take care of my own life, you know, get my own apartment. That’s that.

JD: Well, I hope it doesn’t get to that.

AH: No, of course, but I’m just saying that when I didn’t fight for it, when I let it go, it was devastasting. Devastating to my heart, my soul, my trust. I can’t do it again. You probably wouldn’t want me to do it again. At least you have in the back of your mind that I come. And I show up. I fight. I come. I don’t have that!

JD: I don’t take that for granted, by the way. I don’t always know that you’ll come, I don’t always know that you’ll be knocking, I don’t always know that you’ll wanna talk. If I go, I go because I think “F**k, we’re screwed! Can’t live like this!”

AH: What’s to stop you from doing that again, thinking that again?

JD: Well, like I said – like you said, we walk out the door, we walk out the door. That is the same thing as rings off, that’s the same thing as mentioning divorce. There’s no talking unless we just wanna try to be civil with one another, as f**king people who are married. And I hate to talk like – I hate even saying that kind of s**t but – yeah, if I walk out again, I’m walking out. And I’ll know that and you’ll know that. If you do that, same deal.

[No talking for nearly a minute, until 4:02:46.]

AH: Okay.

JD: I love you and I’m gonna do my best that I can to regain trust, respect, whatever you feel you’ve lost for me.

AH: I hope you can too.

JD: Hmm?

AH: I hope you can too.

JD: And I hope you can make the changes that f**k with me. And if we want to do it, we’ll do it, ultimately. If we don’t want to do it, we know the result. ’Cause we’re definitely at the end of any of that s**t. All the anger at each other. We’re definitely at the end of that kind of s**t. No more.

AH: Can you let it go? Can you let it go, some of these fights?

JD: Yeah, I can let the fights go.

AH: I just feel like you hold onto everything and we just fight about the same, you know. My Mom said, I don’t think either of us are forgiving of each other.

JD: Well, I don’t think it’s gonna, we’re gonna forgive each other this quickly.

AH: I’m not saying that.

JD: [4:05:00] I think with time, it’ll, you know, lessen. But everything that I said, you’re not gonna be able to unhear, and the same with me, I’m not gonna be able to unhear it. They are horribly thought-provoking, but just gotta write it off, you know, and get past it. If I didn’t want to be with you, I wouldn’t be with you. If you didn’t want to be with me, you wouldn’t be with me. And that’s really what it boils down to. So if we want to be together, let’s do our best to fix what’s broken within the machine, within our machine that is us.

[No talking for half a minute, until 4:06:53.]

AH: That’s why I came.

JD: Hmm?

AH: That’s why I came. I’m still married to you.

JD: I hate it. I hate having to leave. I hate f**king geting here. I couldn’t fall asleep. I took an Ambien and I finally, you know, f**king woke up three hours f**king late, feeling like “oh god, why? f**king why?”

AH: I hope this is important enough for you to fight for.

JD: It is important enough for me to fight for. But why do you say that?

AH: Because I can’t do it alone. I woke up, first thing I called you. Called you last night which was just foolish, you know. And I understand part of it but I also see, like, you know I love you. I know I’ve had my f**k-ups and my issues. At least you know I love you. You know I love you more, than me. You know, at least you know that. You do know that.

JD: What? That you –

AH: That I love you more than me. That I love you –

JD: More than yourself?

AH: Yeah. You don’t debase yourself and embarrass yourself like that for some— for you, because you’re worried about protecting yourself.

JD: I don’t think you’ve debased yourself in any way. I think you’ve been very brave. It’s a very admirable –

AH: Your feet are swollen.

JD: What?

AH: Your ankles are swollen. Did you take your morning meds?

JD: There’s no swelling.

AH: What?

JD: No swelling.

AH: Not swelling? Oh, it must just be part of the sock.

JD: It’s just a muscle there. [4:10:00] I love you. I don’t wanna do anything bad to you, I don’t wanna harm you, I don’t wanna hurt you. I don’t, I don’t. So like I said, I’ll f**king do every f**king thing I can. But it’s gotta be reciprocal.

AH: Yes. I agree.

JD: And what you did, by calling me last night, you fell asleep on the phone. You realize that?

AH: Yeah. I’m sorry. I had to Ambien myself, again.

JD: It’s alright. I said a sweet goodnight to you, while you were sleeping.

AH: Could you tell I was sleeping?

JD: I thought you were sleeping once before. I think you might have fallen asleep once before, and then woke up and continued talking. Then I was saying something, talking, and all of a sudden there was just no more. Like, you were just gone.

AH: I really don’t want to sleep without you again. We can’t. There’s a better way.

JD: Let’s find it. Don't slug me.

AH: I’m sorry I did!

JD: It’s okay, it just—

AH: But sometimes that f**king thing happens! You do it too sometimes, where you just –

JD: I know.

AH: But it can’t be the end of – our marriage is bigger than that, obviously!

JD: We don’t need to ever get to that point with each other.

AH: I agree. I agree, but –

JD: I hope you don’t. I hope you don’t. I love you and I want you to be my wife, and I wanna be your husband. I want to be a good husband, and if I haven’t been, then I’ll do everything I can to find out how to be a good husband.

AH: You’re a great husband, you really are, it’s just – it’s just hard if anything comes up, if something bumps your shoulder on a crowded sidewalk, well no more wearing white again, and black so it makes a difference. It’s a big deal if there’s a bump, and it’s hard. I love you, and I – I know we’ve been so – we can be so good.

JD: Amazing.

AH: And I’m here. I’m trying to move forward, forgive each other. We have to forgive each other.

JD: Listen. I know we’ve had our fights today, to try to settle whatever the f**k all this scrambled crazy s**t, that one thing reminds you of another, and you find yourself going back into some other fight. And it’s all scrambled, it’s all f**king jumbled, it’s like white noise going moving around and doing a thing. I’m glad that we got to a point where we were s**tty with each other. I’m glad we got to a point where we didn’t f**king know how this was gonna end. But I’m telling you, coming here today is f**king courageous and it’s f**king admirable. For you to come here and talk to me, and try and work things out, and to tell me these problems, things that I do that f**k with you. I want to change it, I want you to change it, I want us to change it together.

AH: [4:15:00] Thank you for sitting through it and actually having a conversation with me. I did not expect that. And I’m really proud of you for not running away, or walking away. I’m proud of you for that. It means that we can actually hash out these things. Some things have to be said, and maybe left.

JD: Huh?

AH: And maybe left.

JD: Oh, left behind.

AH: I know we can never forgive a lot of things. But we need to, we really need to. And Mom’s right, we’re absolutely – it’s just adding weight that we’re just carrying around millstones. My Mom is right, I know she is.

JD: She is right. She’s right on the f**king money. She’s on it. We can make it if we want to. We can get through this s**t if we want to. But if you’re unsure, right now, then –

AH: You know I’m not. I love you. I love you and – I just needed the security again, to have something to hold onto. Or else I’m lying.

JD: Tell me s**t. Just tell me before it becomes something you’ve held inside for so long that it wants to explode.

AH: Yeah.

JD: Tell me. And I’ll tell you the same. And then, once we can f**king get this s**t out without it being some huge drama, or even if it is a huge drama, once we can get this s**t out, recognize it and like you said, f**king it’s gone, chuck it. That doesn’t work. That method does not work, bam it’s gone. Next. F**k me, I’d f**king die if you thought – I mean it kills me, the possibility that you think that I take so much for granted, or that I’m untrustworthy or a bad husband, or –

AH: I didn’t say you were untrustworthy.

JD: No, I’m just saying it’s—

AH: And I said what I needed to say — you know I won’t—

JD: I know baby, I’m not asking you to elaborate on anything I’m saying. All I’m saying is, I would f**king die if I knew that was how you thought of me. And now I know what I know, and I’ll f**king do my best to get it together, so that I don’t f**k with you and you don’t f**k with me. No more f**king – we’re a couple again, and we’re friends again. I don’t want to fight with you. I love you.

AH: And I promise I won’t explode if we just do the things a little different in the fight. You know, like, don’t walk away from me! Do it in a different way, and I promise I won’t resort to the same s**t. I promise, okay?

JD: Thank you. Maybe when that f**king hocus pocus happens and we get all edgy with each other, instead of standing squaring off like a couple of fighters, maybe let’s try sit down, seriously you know like sit down. Even if we say “hey listen, we’re fighting like bas**rds, let’s sit down and have a glass of wine, and talk through this.” I know you got it in you, I know you got it in you. And I know I’m gonna have it in me. It’s just a question of realizing and admitting it, you know.