Temporary, recursive beings

6:02:13 PMⓘ Profound set mode +v chinesegirl8
6:02:25 PM+Thacker-we KNOW noise does more harm than good to ANY signal
6:02:29 PM+LowInformationVoterI desire more than zero citations from you, Thacker-.
6:02:38 PM+Thacker-ahh, hang on...
6:03:27 PM+LowInformationVoterHumans are very, very recent characters to this story.
6:03:57 PM+LowInformationVoterI'm at the scene with the jellyfish in the ocean.
6:03:57 PM+bradmajI see a "Citation-flood" post war coming up
6:04:09 PM+LowInformationVoterIt's fascinating to think of swimming in the ocean 500 million years ago.
6:04:16 PM+LowInformationVoterWould it feel like it was 500 million years ago?
6:04:22 PM+LowInformationVoterIt would feel like it is 'now'.
6:04:23 PM+bradmajLowInformationVoter, ye
6:04:29 PM+LowInformationVoterRight now is 500 million years ago, then.
6:04:32 PM+bradmajthe sun wouldn't be near as bright, for one thing
6:04:42 PM+bradmajthere wojuld be no mammals
6:04:50 PM+LowInformationVoterbradmaj: I wouldn't know there weren't any mammals.
6:04:55 PM+LowInformationVoterAnd the sun's brightness would be normal.
6:05:00 PM+bradmajthere woujld be one ginat continent
6:05:26 PM+bradmajLowInformationVoter, the sun has been geting brighter since it first ignited. it was dimmer in the past, and will be brighter in the future
6:05:35 PM+LowInformationVoterbradmaj: I believe that is true.
6:05:55 PM+LowInformationVoterThe point is that my perception of time is some belief I have that dissolves upon inspection
6:06:17 PM→ EricofAZ has joined
6:06:17 PMⓘ ChanServ set mode +o EricofAZ
6:06:22 PMⓘ BibleBot set mode +v EricofAZ
6:06:23 PM@EricofAZPlay nice.
6:06:27 PM+LowInformationVoterI enjoy the part of this scene in which Malick explores some of the abiotic aspects of Earth.
6:06:42 PM+LowInformationVoterThink of the millions of years some rocks 'watched' reality.
6:06:42 PM+Thacker-http://www.basfeijen.nl/evolution/cambrianexplosion.htm
6:06:47 PM+bradmajFrom Cornell.EDU
6:06:50 PM+bradmajThe Sun evolves very slowly over this time as it consumes Hydrogen in its core:
6:06:50 PM+bradmajgrows slightly larger
6:06:50 PM+bradmajgets slightly brighter
6:06:50 PM+bradmajtemperature gets slightly hotter
6:07:03 PM+LowInformationVoterBut I can only watch reality for a very short period of time because I believe I am unchanging.
6:07:05 PM+Thacker-there are better ciations, but at the moment that's all the time I'm going to spend on it
6:07:18 PM+LowInformationVoterWhat would it be like to be a rock in a cliff face.
6:07:20 PM+Thacker-still, the issue is, evolving systems
6:07:39 PM+Thacker-like it was before you were born
6:07:55 PM+LowInformationVoterThis form is just some form that can exist.
6:08:00 PM+LowInformationVoterThe matter in this form was once a rock.
6:08:09 PM+LowInformationVoterAnd in this pattern it has mastery over natural language so it talks to you.
6:08:09 PM+bradmajFrom "northwestern.edu"
6:08:10 PM+Thacker-like the computer you have
6:08:14 PM+LowInformationVoterYep.
6:08:22 PM+LowInformationVoterI'm not me.
6:08:25 PM+LowInformationVoterI don't exist.
6:08:27 PM+bradmajSince its birth 4.5 billion years ago, the Sun's luminosity has very gently increased by about 30%.3 per billion years  This is an inevitable evolution which comes about because, as the billions of years roll by, the Sun is burning up the hydrogen in its core.
6:08:35 PM+Thacker-reman, not likely, no
6:08:55 PM+Thacker-anyway, it looks like the conversation died with my quest
6:09:28 PM+LowInformationVoterThacker-: You appear to have cited a Christian website.
6:09:37 PM+LowInformationVoterThis seems unacceptable.
6:09:40 PM+Thacker-why?
6:09:45 PM+Thacker-did you read it?
6:09:51 PM+Thacker-what part do you dispute and why?
6:09:54 PM+LowInformationVoterI ctrl-f for "%" and "80".
6:09:57 PM+LowInformationVoterWith zero hits.
6:10:11 PM+Thacker-ahh, yeah, I didn't take the time to drill that out
6:10:21 PM+LowInformationVoterI also noticed in the opening paragraph that the writer was overemphasizing Darwin's views when it comes to the truth value of evolution.
6:10:27 PM+LowInformationVoterEvolution as a idea is independent of Darwin.
6:10:34 PM+Thacker-the explosion of the body plans was a mystery to Darwin and remains one today for Darwinists
6:10:55 PM+LowInformationVoterThacker-: Over how much time do you think the Cambrian explosion occurred?
6:10:56 PM+Thacker-oh, what are the salient differences?
6:11:04 PM+Thacker-its hard to tell
6:11:22 PM+Thacker-there's nothing in strata previous to it
6:11:46 PM+Thacker-not at least which explains the body plans of the Cambrain
6:11:58 PM+Thacker-and to date, there's no viable explanation for it
6:12:06 PM+LowInformationVoterThacker-: What do you think the Cambrian radiation demonstrates?
6:12:24 PM+Thacker-yeah, an asteroid hit the planet, and water spilled on my keyboard, and PRESTO, my com became AI
6:12:33 PM+Thacker-the dating?
6:12:36 PM+LowInformationVoterI think it demonstrates that evolutionary processes through multiple interacting ecosystems can, and sometimes do, show higher rates of change than at other times.
6:12:54 PM+Thacker-reman, keep reading my statement
6:12:59 PM+LowInformationVoterThacker-: The information content of your last post was about 50bytes.
6:13:06 PM+Thacker-<Thacker-> not at least which explains the body plans of the Cambrain
6:13:17 PM+LowInformationVoterHow much information do you think there was in the phenomena your 50bytes is describing?
6:13:26 PM+LowInformationVoterI'll estimate 10^50 bytes
6:13:40 PM+LowInformationVoterSo, your post probably is pretty far from the reality you're attempting to describe, right.
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6:13:49 PM+Thacker-I very possibly, at least
6:13:50 PM+LowInformationVoterAnd that's because our brains are slow and dumb compared to biospheres.
6:13:51 PMⓘ Profound set mode +v Jarod
6:14:15 PM+Thacker-so are our coms
6:14:23 PM+Thacker-and they were worse 20yrs ago
6:14:37 PM+Thacker-reman, depends upon how far back you take it
6:15:02 PM+Thacker-if you really push it, the numbers REALLY go up
6:15:20 PM+LowInformationVoterThacker-: I give you a process workspace to analyze a graph problem with
6:15:23 PM+Thacker-it would include all the computations of all my predessors
6:15:27 PM+LowInformationVoterYour process has 8GB of working memory
6:15:44 PM+LowInformationVoterThe problem I wish you to solved is NP-Hard on a graph of 10^30 nodes
6:15:53 PM+Thacker-but, you do realize that this computation isn't natural, right?
6:15:54 PM+LowInformationVoterEach node contains 1kb of relevant data
6:16:00 PM+LowInformationVoterTell me, does your process understand the problem?
6:16:16 PM+LowInformationVoterIt doesn't, right
6:16:22 PM+Thacker-some of the terms are familiar, it would take time to parse it
6:16:26 PM+LowInformationVoterNow, the process has awareness of itself in its workspace
6:16:35 PM+LowInformationVoterThe process says, I have no idea how I came into existence!
6:16:43 PM+Thacker-another oddity, but ok
6:16:44 PM+LowInformationVoterThe 10^30 node graph problem contains the answer
6:16:55 PM+LowInformationVoterThis is the source of your mystery
6:17:15 PM+Thacker-that information, as you are describing it, exists at all is odd
6:17:20 PM+LowInformationVoterYour awareness is too limited to understand the dynamics across 4 billion years, across the surface of a planet, of the computing life function
6:17:32 PM+LowInformationVoterEven if I gave you the entire data set -- which we do not have -- you couldn't do anything with it
6:17:36 PM+LowInformationVoterIt's too complex for your brain
6:17:38 PM+Thacker-ehh, I get intuition is a poor guide
6:17:50 PM+Thacker-sure, we look for patterns, short cuts
6:18:06 PM+LowInformationVoterThacker-: We are smarter than any objects we encounter
6:18:14 PM+LowInformationVoterWe have very little sense of how stupid we are for this reason
6:18:15 PM+Thacker-generally yeah
6:18:22 PM+Thacker-not sure about that
6:18:25 PM+LowInformationVoterEvolution is an exceptionally complex function to compute
6:18:34 PM+Thacker-not sure about that either
6:18:44 PM+Thacker-slide rules worked for a reason
6:18:48 PM+LowInformationVoterThacker-: I want you to make a simulation of the Earth's biosphere
6:18:54 PM+LowInformationVoterHow complex is that
6:18:58 PM+Thacker-sure, they were cheats, but effective ones
6:19:19 PM+LowInformationVoterHow much information is there in a realistic simulation of a squirrel
6:19:22 PM+LowInformationVoter10^18 bytes?
6:19:24 PM+Thacker-fluid dynamics is about the most insanely complex system to model ever
6:19:26 PM+LowInformationVoter10^25?
6:19:44 PM+Thacker-particularly on ultra fine granes
6:19:47 PM+LowInformationVoterYou'll need that in order to figure out of the bones being produced in its left femur are strong enough for this jump its making
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6:19:57 PMⓘ Profound set mode +v [michigan]
6:20:02 PM+LowInformationVoterOh, but the wind is acting on the squirrel -- need to add those dynamics of the squirrel's jump
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6:20:17 PM+LowInformationVoterOh, part of the environment reacts to the jumping squirrel, you'll need to model that
6:20:20 PM+Thacker-and the butterfly's wings too
6:20:24 PM+Thacker-sure
6:20:39 PM+LowInformationVoterYou'll need a model of the squirrel's brain to estimate how it makes its decisons
6:20:45 PM+Thacker-what you probably know is, I know this
6:20:51 PM+LowInformationVoterThis will roughly let you model a squirrel's life arc
6:20:55 PM+Thacker-and probably not like you know it
6:20:57 PM+LowInformationVoterIt's beyond the ability of contemporary science
6:21:07 PM+Thacker-sure, intuition is a poor guide
6:21:07 PM+LowInformationVoterNow, you need to do that for all lifeforms and abiotic factors in a region
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6:21:15 PMⓘ Profound set mode +v Toph1
6:21:18 PM+LowInformationVoterAnd then run that simulation for millions of years to observe changes in genomics
6:21:22 PM+LowInformationVoterYour brain can't do that
6:21:27 PM+LowInformationVoterSorry. We're too dumb
6:21:32 PM+Thacker-reman, I basically quoted (paraphrased) Einstein dude
6:21:33 PM+LowInformationVoterThis will remain a mystery to you forever
6:21:44 PM+LowInformationVoterSo, what can you do?
6:21:55 PM+LowInformationVoterYou can project that extremely complex object into a lower space through a lossy filter
6:21:55 PM+Thacker-low, umm huh
6:22:11 PM+Thacker-true
6:22:12 PM+LowInformationVoterAnd you get broad summarizations like 'evolution' and mathematical models of RNA evolution
6:22:20 PM+Thacker-you lose a lot of definition, but yeah
6:22:24 PM+LowInformationVoterAnd you get low fidelity models of intelligence, etc.
6:22:36 PM+LowInformationVoterThacker-: No system can fully model itself
6:22:42 PM+LowInformationVoterIt's forever uncomputable
6:22:48 PM+LowInformationVoterNo entity shall ever exist which can compute the universe
6:22:52 PM+LowInformationVoterOnly the universe can compute the universe
6:22:54 PM+Thacker-ehh, what are the odds of flipping 10 heads in a row?
6:23:01 PM+LowInformationVoterAnd its calculations are what we call reality
6:23:05 PM+Thacker-umm huh
6:23:08 PM+bradmajEinstein basicaly wasted the second half of his life trying to disporve Quantum Theory
6:23:10 PM+bradmajhe failed.
6:23:11 PM+Thacker-you're riffing now
6:23:39 PM+LowInformationVoterThacker-: Every computing process *must* use non-computing substrate material.
6:23:41 PM+Thacker-what are the odds?
6:23:50 PM+Thacker-not sure that's true
6:23:54 PM+LowInformationVoterThat non-computing material affects the computations of the computing function in that substrate
6:24:19 PM+LowInformationVoterThat prevents the computing function from perfectly modeling itself *even in a small window of the universe*, say 1 cubic meter
6:24:20 PM+Thacker-low, dude, are you going to converse or riff, either is fine, but I'd like to know
6:24:31 PM+LowInformationVoterThis means its model of reality will diverge from the actual computations being done by the universe
6:24:37 PM+LowInformationVoterAnd, in time, it will be unable to retain its shape against entropy
6:24:44 PM+Thacker-if you want to riff, I'll kick back and just watch the buffer scroll
6:24:51 PM+LowInformationVoterI'll pause
6:25:06 PM* LowInformationVoter smiles a squirrel smile
6:25:18 PM+LowInformationVoterI'd like to share a song with you, Thacker-
6:25:23 PM+LowInformationVoterFor you to experience with this topic
6:25:29 PM+LowInformationVoterhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6c-RbGZBnBI
6:25:38 PM+Thacker-sure, I get that we have difficulty rapping our minds around massively complex systems
6:25:41 PM+LowInformationVoterThe song is about the finiteness of your existence and your coming dissolution to entropy
6:25:50 PM+Thacker-geeze
6:25:55 PM+LowInformationVoterIt's good
6:25:59 PM+Thacker-umm huh
6:26:13 PM+LowInformationVoterIt's not just that some of these problems are hard
6:26:15 PM+Thacker-I'm feeling you're wandering off here...
6:26:19 PM+LowInformationVoterSome of them are *forever hard*
6:26:23 PM+LowInformationVoterIt's important to understand that
6:26:25 PM+Thacker-we don't know that
6:26:37 PM+LowInformationVoterIf you compute the earth's surface into computronium, it won't fully understand itself
6:26:50 PM+LowInformationVoterthough, it will know many things you do not know
6:26:57 PM+Thacker-no, it won't
6:27:01 PM+Thacker-and that's the point
6:27:08 PM+LowInformationVoterIt won't what?
6:27:09 PM+Thacker-no more than you knew before you were born
6:27:12 PM+Thacker-or after you die
6:27:28 PM+Thacker-"know many things you do not know"
6:27:39 PM+Thacker-information doesn't exist apart from intelligence
6:28:02 PM+Thacker-the "knower"
6:28:22 PM+LowInformationVoterThis will be my monument, Thacker-
6:28:27 PM+LowInformationVoterThis conversation will be a beacon when we're gone
6:28:44 PM+Thacker-and it will disipate the moment we leave
6:28:51 PM+LowInformationVoterWe're little parts of the universe that became aware for a moment
6:29:05 PM+Thacker-umm huh, which is total bunk
6:29:05 PM+LowInformationVoterWe poked enough above the entropy to look back and say, That's me!
6:29:07 PM+Thacker-:)
6:29:11 PM+LowInformationVoterIf only for the briefest of cosmological moments
6:29:19 PM+Thacker-which is impossible by TD
6:29:21 PM+LowInformationVoterIn reality, it is the universe that has become aware
6:29:27 PM+Thacker-heh
6:29:29 PM+LowInformationVoterAnd part of its calls itself me
6:29:34 PM+Thacker-nope, it hasn't
6:29:37 PM+LowInformationVoterAnd part of it self calls itself Thacker
6:29:40 PM+Thacker-umm huh, nope
6:29:50 PM+LowInformationVoterAnd this conversation becomes a moment in my life
6:30:04 PM+Thacker-LOL, this is frutless, your monument is pointless
6:30:07 PM+LowInformationVoterhehe
6:30:12 PM+Thacker-and its all terminal
6:30:24 PM+Thacker-a poor player who struts and frets...
6:30:32 PM+LowInformationVoterThe universe is evolving independent of the local decisions by some apes to build monuments -- agreed
6:30:42 PM+LowInformationVoterDoes that frighten you
6:30:46 PM+Thacker-agree, no question about it
6:30:55 PM+Thacker-nope
6:31:09 PM+LowInformationVoterMe neither ;)
6:31:17 PM+Thacker-if you internalized that, it should and WILL distrub you
6:31:26 PM+LowInformationVoterThe universe once featured a breaking of symmetry
6:31:40 PM+LowInformationVoterThat heterogeneity eventually lead to 'fusion' and 'planets'
6:31:41 PM+Thacker-umm huh
6:32:00 PM+LowInformationVoterOn those planets, those unequal local environments created gradients in various aspects of the universe
6:32:01 PM+Thacker-not sure that's true... but anyway
6:32:16 PM+Thacker-probably dark matter matricies
6:32:22 PM+Thacker-but anyway
6:32:24 PM+LowInformationVoterDifferent shapes fell down those gradients, and some began to have 'state'
6:32:35 PM+LowInformationVoterThese shapes could replicate themselves with some fidelity
6:32:47 PM+Thacker-dude, bless your heart, but, you sound like you're smokin dope
6:32:50 PM+LowInformationVoterEventually, some of these shapes coordinated the actions of other shapes in proximity
6:32:54 PM+LowInformationVoterWe called those 'neurons'
6:32:59 PM+Thacker-I'm betting you are
6:33:09 PM+Thacker-and feelin fine...
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6:33:16 PM+LowInformationVoterOne day, about 40 years ago, one of those shapes made a baby shape that was 'you'
6:33:17 PM+Thacker-so enjoy the high...
6:33:24 PM+LowInformationVoterAnd now you're here, with me, wondering what it all means
6:33:38 PM+LowInformationVoterIt means there were asymmetries in the original universal state
6:33:39 PM+LowInformationVoterThat's it
6:34:07 PM+LowInformationVoterAnd now we're dancing to Monument by Royksopp, some Norwegian electronica band
6:34:18 PM+LowInformationVoterWondering what it means to be a self-aware, temporary shape contemplating Universe
6:34:31 PM+LowInformationVoterThat's kinda neat :)
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6:36:05 PM+LowInformationVoterExistence is pretty big
6:36:22 PM+LowInformationVoterYou got this one humans telling me to create monuments to love
6:36:35 PM+LowInformationVoterThese other humans are telling me about Jesus in the sky and everlasting laugh -- the game doesn't have to end!
6:36:48 PM+LowInformationVoterThis one Buddha human tells me all of the past is gone and that my entire life arc is a story I've created
6:37:14 PM+LowInformationVoterWe've got anti-natalists telling us that self-awareness is a tragic misstep in evolution -- a part of nature separate from itself
6:37:28 PM+LowInformationVoterWe've got snails exploring leaves, sniffing with their appendages
6:37:33 PM+LowInformationVoterWe've got rocks in silent contemplation
6:37:42 PM← RenaissanceMan has left
6:37:54 PM+LowInformationVoterWe've got Thacker- worrying about gradients and entropy calculations in open systems
6:39:11 PM+LowInformationVoterhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bag1gUxuU0g
6:39:36 PM+bradmajwe've got skies of blue, red roses too
6:40:11 PM+LowInformationVoterhehe
6:40:17 PM+LowInformationVoterThacker-: We're born to die
6:40:58 PM→ Kalamity has joined
6:41:01 PMⓘ Profound set mode +v Kalamity
6:41:03 PM+LowInformationVoterSelf-contemplating computational processes rushing to expand our working memory for ever more accurate simulations until the day our asymptotic errors finally catch up and we can't bound risk any further
6:42:55 PM+LowInformationVoter"I was so confused as a little child Tried to take what I could get Scared that I couldn't find All the answers honey; Don’t make me sad, don’t make me cry Sometimes love is not enough and the road gets tough I don’t know why Keep making me laugh Let's go get high The road is long, we carry on Try to have fun in the meantime
6:43:25 PM+LowInformationVoterThe words of Prophet Del Rey
6:43:39 PM+LowInformationVoterLet them wash over you and realize they have as much insight as Frank the Tank or Buddha
6:44:39 PM+bradmajLester Del rey?
6:44:54 PM+LowInformationVoterThat's the one
6:45:28 PM+bradmajHe founded Del Rey books
6:45:28 PM+LowInformationVoterhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Py_-3di1yx0
6:45:37 PM+bradmajcontemporary of Isaac asimov
6:45:38 PM+LowInformationVoterLana has some truly epic commentaries on existence
6:45:53 PM+bradmajLester and Judy-Lynn Del rey
6:45:58 PM+bradmajI met both of 'em
6:47:54 PM+bradmajI think eventually Bantam/Doubleday/Dell bought ouot Del rey books
6:48:08 PM+LowInformationVoterI think the Ride monologue is one of the best poems I've ever read
6:48:18 PM+bradmajFrom Stephen king?
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6:51:57 PM+LowInformationVoterI am humbled each time I listen to Lana Del Rey - Ride.
6:52:09 PM+LowInformationVoterYou can't help but acknowledge you are in the presence of a true artist.
6:52:30 PM+LowInformationVoterA temporary soul who flits into our shadowy existences to illuminate the possibilities we never knew existed.