[darexius] Alright, so let's start this thing and if he comes we'll catch him up
[jtigchelaar] check
[darexius] I'm John (Darexius) and this is Sam (phoenix), we're with Crist Industries, blah blah blah
[darexius] You're here because you showed interest in developing for ScratchOS
[darexius] We're all here today to discuss what ScratchOS is, it's goals, etc
[darexius] We're also going to come up with a gameplan and development cycle to focus on for our first release, as well as come up with a release name
[darexius] There are also other things like the website which we will discuss
[darexius] To start out, I would like to offer everybody cristindustries.net email addresses to you guys
[pierut] woot
[jtigchelaar] sweet
[darexius] This will help facilitate communications to the developers as a whole
[RockDoctor1] we might get to thinking we
[RockDoctor1] opps we're professionals
[darexius] lol
• pierut adjusts the tie on tuxedo tshirt
[darexius] So, let's start listing off the emails we want
[jtigchelaar] jtigchelaar@cristindustries.net
[darexius] Do you guys want to stick with your nicks@scratchos.cristindustries.net?
[jtigchelaar] so...yeah :)
[RockDoctor1] rockdoctor@cristindustries.net
[pierut] sure
[phoenix4552] I'll just keep mine
[pierut] i just understood your nick, dr
[pierut] :)
[darexius] Alright, we have jtigchelaar@scratchos.cristindustries.net, rockdoctor@same, and pierut@same
[jtigchelaar] geologist...
[jtigchelaar] i got it
[jtigchelaar] damn i'm slow
[pierut] ya... just didn't associate the two ;s
[pierut] works for me
[darexius] To access your email, go to cristindustries.net/webmail and log in with your full email address and abc123 for a password
[darexius] You can change your password once you log in
[RockDoctor1] I told my nephew I was a rock doctor back when he was 4 or 5
[darexius] lol
[jtigchelaar] lol
[darexius] Naturally I'm john.crist@cristindustries.net and phoenix is samantha@cristindustries.net
[darexius] If you use a mail client, the server is mail.cristindustries.net. Most clients autodetect the IMAP settings
[jtigchelaar] wow..it's up already
[phoenix4552] he's fast
[darexius] Well duh :P
[darexius] lol
[jtigchelaar] you are fast
[phoenix4552] a true multitasking guru
[jtigchelaar] apparently
[darexius] Tonight I'm going to set up the forum/wiki for scratchos @ scratchos.cristindustries.net
[phoenix4552] more impressive... he's cutting down on the caffeine
[jtigchelaar] wow
[darexius] I'll email you guys when I did that
[jtigchelaar] teach me how to do that
[darexius] Any questions of comments so far?
[phoenix4552] multitask or live without artificial stimulants?
[jtigchelaar] either or both
[darexius] lol
[darexius] Yeah, I was sucking up a little less than 10 pots of coffee a day not long ago
[phoenix4552] lol
[darexius] Now I've had my first one in like 4 days.
[jtigchelaar] that's impressive
[phoenix4552] the phrase we're looking for here is "jack russell terrier"
[darexius] XD
[jtigchelaar] lol
[darexius] Well crap, listen to that last podcast we did on slatedroid
[jtigchelaar] no comments by the way toher than 'thank you'
[darexius] "blah blah blaaaaaaah blah blah blah blah"
[jtigchelaar] i did
[jtigchelaar] you were kinda fast
[phoenix4552] lol
[darexius] That was before coffee
[darexius] XD
[jtigchelaar] wow
[phoenix4552] oh yeah
[darexius] We need to record a meeting where I'm hopped up on coffee
[darexius] It gets fun
[phoenix4552] or me
[phoenix4552] only 2 cups sends me over the edge
[RockDoctor1] you get fun?
[darexius] "And THIS!!!" *draws a big giant air circle* "is an AMAZING feature that would be freaking UNBELIEVABLY COOOOOL!"
[jtigchelaar] lol
[phoenix4552] yeah... that was me
[darexius] Okay, so, on topic now
[jtigchelaar] ahum yes
[darexius] I'm planning on using SMF/Tikiwiki for the scratchOS site. Any thoughts?
[darexius] Or just Tiki with the forum plugin
[darexius] Either way
[darexius] Thing is I can bridge cristindustries.net accounts to SMF, not to Tiki
[darexius] Unless someone knows something I don't about these APIs
[jtigchelaar] you're using SMF for the cristindustries site now right?
[darexius] No
[darexius] I'm using Joomla
[jtigchelaar] ok
[jtigchelaar] ahhh
[jtigchelaar] well, if it's easier to link to SMF
[darexius] We went down the whole "make our own API" and it was just more trouble than my ADD cared for.
[darexius] And Joomla does everything I need it to out of the box
[pierut] :D
[jtigchelaar] i know, i tried to reinvent the wheel too many times myself
[jtigchelaar] i guess SMF would do great
[darexius] Okay, so SMF then
[darexius] I'll email you guys tonight when I get that up.
[darexius] That will more or less serve as our communications hub for ourselves as well as the public
[RockDoctor1] Login Attempt Failed!
[pierut] i got that too.. after i changed my pass
[darexius] rockdoctor@scratchos.cristindustries.net - abc123?
[pierut] had to use the new password
[RockDoctor1] I can't get in to change my pw
[darexius] Lemme look
[RockDoctor1] got it
[darexius] Okay, just reset it to abc123
[darexius] Good
[RockDoctor1] illiterate - can't read properly
[darexius] lol
[darexius] It's all good :P
[darexius] We'll be sure to use shapes and colors in the OS for ya :P
[darexius] j/k. ANYWAY
[darexius] So far I've been and still intend to be the Chief Architect for the ITCH/SCRATCH project, but as far as the OS, I firmly believe in equality. I've seen and dev'd for too many distros that had a "chief architect" of sorts and it fails miserable.
[darexius] brb, gotta get the phone
[jtigchelaar] awhhh
[jtigchelaar] just as it gets interesting :)
[jtigchelaar] way to keep suspense :)
[RockDoctor1] all interesting to me - I don't know squat about building an OS.
[jtigchelaar] you'll learn soon enough :)
[phoenix4552] I think you'll like the general design. more centric to touchscreens
[jtigchelaar] as stated i'm anxious to find out more
[RockDoctor1] Got to be better than RT-11 on a PDP 11-03
[phoenix4552] hope so
[jtigchelaar] nothing can beat that
[RockDoctor1] sorry - probably way before y'all's times
[phoenix4552] lol
[jtigchelaar] acutally, i started programming at 11
[jtigchelaar] that would be ooohhh.. way back in 92
[phoenix4552] wow
[jtigchelaar] mind you, i didn't write all to mature software
[jtigchelaar] most progs included some reference to genatalia
[RockDoctor1] I had already gone through 4 or 6 computers of my own by then
[jtigchelaar] yeah, i matured since then
[RockDoctor1] now only half the programs have such references?
[phoenix4552] lol
[jtigchelaar] only the code comments
[jtigchelaar] much to the amusement of my colleagues
[jtigchelaar] seriously though, i've been seriously out of practice with the real nitty gritty
[jtigchelaar] been doing C# asp.net development for the past 7 years now
[jtigchelaar] recently into WCF/Silverlight
[phoenix4552] you and John will get along well then as he's been joking about naming the pkgs after things that you scratch
[jtigchelaar] been itching to do some 'real' coding again
[pierut] teehee
[phoenix4552] like lice, fleas, pinworms, boils, psoriasis, you get the idea
[jtigchelaar] ahh, is see opportunaties
[darexius] Back
[pierut] wb
[phoenix4552] do you scratch hemmorrhoids?
[phoenix4552] wb
[pierut] hopefully not D=
[darexius] lol
[jtigchelaar] not if you're smart
[darexius] Yeah, was about to get to that before carting in 9 new desktops from the front of the building
[darexius] Funny how that works
[darexius] ANYWAY
[phoenix4552] ouch
[darexius] Equality
[pierut] i hate it when i have to carry new computers in..wait
[darexius] As far as I'm concerned you guys are the first ones here, we're founders, and from us will come greatness
[pierut] \o/
[darexius] The goal of the project is to create an open source distribution that is Tablet- and Business-centric
[RockDoctor1] or grapeness
[jtigchelaar] w00t
[darexius] Android, iOS, etc, are designed for games, for mobile devices, but not so much for business
[darexius] lol RockDoctor1
[jtigchelaar] f34r us w3r3 f0r w3 4r3 l33t
[jtigchelaar] *cough* soorry about that
[darexius] The goal of the SCRATCH was to create the first tablet that was Work First, Play Second
[RockDoctor1] business requires a perception of easy to use
[darexius] And that bleeds into the OS
[darexius] Exactly RockDoctor1
[darexius] They need to be able to turn it on, see their new email, their tasks for the day, etc, all at one glance
[darexius] Be able to instinctively manipulate the system the first time they ever use it
[darexius] without any training
[RockDoctor1] easier said than done
[phoenix4552] that's where the rocking new design comes in
[darexius] You're right
[jtigchelaar] having had some hands on experience with user interaction lately that is indeed quite the challenge
[RockDoctor1] Do we assume familiarity with something like Android on cell phones?
[darexius] That's what I meant about the investors conference
[darexius] We assume they can turn on a computer
[phoenix4552] and pick their nose
[darexius] Pretty much
[phoenix4552] and that's about it
[jtigchelaar] got that covered then
[RockDoctor1] but not at the same time
[phoenix4552] of coarse not... you'd get boogers all over your computer screen
[jtigchelaar] is 'on screen guidance' an option?
[phoenix4552] that's just gross
[darexius] For instance, think of this idea. We at one time envisioned using something like Conky to draw info to the background like a clock, email list, etc, and make those elements interactive. You click on the email area and your email box comes up
[darexius] Yes
• pierut reminds jtigchelaar of the paperclip
[jtigchelaar] no
[jtigchelaar] not clippy
[RockDoctor1] that was clippy
[pierut] ;p
[RockDoctor1] conky is good
[jtigchelaar] it brings back the nightmares
[darexius] I'm thinking instead of a paperclick, like highlights
[darexius] Things that glow or some crap are interactive
[darexius] Makes you want to click on them
[darexius] Maybe a tutorial program to start with or whatever for bear bones basic operation
[darexius] I dunno
[jtigchelaar] yeah, that's more along the lines of what i was thinking of with on screen guidance
[RockDoctor1] What if you drag an icon to a door that says open on it?
[jtigchelaar] re the glowing and shtuff
[darexius] Idealy I want to avoid icons on the homescreen
[darexius] I mean obviously they'd be useful
[jtigchelaar] draw their attention to it automatically
[darexius] But what about having the conky homescreen and then when you swipe left or right you get different desktops
[darexius] That have more customized widgets you can use, icons, etc
[jtigchelaar] multiple desktops would be a requirement i guess
[jtigchelaar] it's what ppl expect
[darexius] Yeah
[pierut] i love conky
[jtigchelaar] gestures are already planned?
[darexius] Yes
[RockDoctor1] then conky doesn't launch anything
[RockDoctor1] need at least two screens to do anything
[darexius] True
[RockDoctor1] not very immediate
[jtigchelaar] i agree
[darexius] Would we want to keep the homescreen clean at all times and new things open on other desktops?
[darexius] Or would we want the homescreen to allow things on top of it?
[jtigchelaar] i think the homescreen should be a user definable hub
[darexius] Just defaults to the conky setup?
[jtigchelaar] not every user is going te be the same
[jtigchelaar] yeah
[darexius] Hey, does conky allow you to load different scripts on the fly?
[darexius] I never tried that
[jtigchelaar] and then you as the user decide what you want on which screen
[RockDoctor1] How to biz ppl uses their homescreens now? I worked for a couple of folks who had all sorts of icons on their home screens
[pierut] i think it requires a restart
[pierut] of conky
[phoenix4552] usually desktops get too cluttered
[pierut] but i havent used it in a bit
[darexius] Like, it loads the default script then when you click on email, it loads a different conky script to replace the one running?
[jtigchelaar] icons are mostly shortcuts to a billion applications you need to perform tasks
[jtigchelaar] instead of thinking in applications i'd suggest thinking of the tasks themselves
[phoenix4552] everything you ever use gets put on the desktop as an icon
[phoenix4552] we're looking to avoid that
[pierut] it might be possible.. when i used it, i mainly had it detailing my CPU usage and sch
[pierut] such*
[darexius] Well if the homescreen is modifiable then we'll need to make a frontend for conky to customize it, won't we
[RockDoctor1] conky is showimg me weather right now
[jtigchelaar] i guess we do then
[jtigchelaar] but it's the route i'd take
[jtigchelaar] business user or not, customizability is king
[darexius] Okay, customizable homescreen with a default conky-based launcher?
[jtigchelaar] check
[darexius] RockDoctor1?
[RockDoctor1] sounds worth a shot
[pierut] i could script it, i belive
[darexius] Sweet
[pierut] that way the source comes with the app itself
[darexius] So we're looking at like a minimum of two desktops (which will be expandable obviously)
[darexius] One for the Conky configurable "launcher" homescreen and a blank desktop
[darexius] To full customize or whatever
[darexius] Or you can tear conky apart if you choose to and have whatever
[darexius] All user configurable
[pierut] not sure about swiping.. but i think i can make a FE to select configurations
[darexius] Okay
[darexius] Cool
[pierut] conky is an excellent idea :D
[darexius] It's great for root display of stuff
[darexius] And it's clean
[pierut] ya
[darexius] Okay, so let's talk base
  »» join fr3dz (fr3dz@97-82-16-182.static.leds.al.charter.com) [Internic Commercial] [05:38pm]
[darexius] In the way beginning we demo'd different setups with Ubuntu that we customized
[darexius] Hello to Fred
[jtigchelaar] hi
  »» op darexius ops fr3dz in #scratchos
[RockDoctor1] hi Fred
[fr3dz] sup sorry im late
[darexius] It's all good
[darexius] I'll catch you up later if you like
[fr3dz] works for me
[darexius] Anyway, let's talk about base
[darexius] We've tossed around Ubuntu as a base-distro to fork from, Fedora, or going LFS
[darexius] Benefits of forking is that we have some established things like packet managers
[jtigchelaar] if you want to honour the name, go with LFS
[darexius] Might help us release faster
[darexius] If we go LFS, does anyone have any ideas for packet management?
[RockDoctor1] Fedora and Ubuntu are both rather large
[darexius] I've always like Portage from Gentoo
[jtigchelaar] that's my thought yeah
[pierut] portage is nice on a pc that can handle compilation of packages
[darexius] Or do we want to design our own packet manager? (never done it to a complete extent before)
[RockDoctor1] Reinventing the wheel
[darexius] pierut, it also fetches precompiled binaries
[pierut] oh
[pierut] that would've saved me lots of time ;s
[darexius] We can compile binaries, put them in our rsync tree, and portage will defaultly grab those packages instead of the source first
[darexius] Yup, it's in make.conf like FEATURES="makebin" or something
[pierut] neat
[jtigchelaar] just chiming in here, but everything needs a full graphic frontend right?
[darexius] Gentoo is usually good about having a good release cycle for their rsync trees, too
[darexius] Ideally, yes
[jtigchelaar] in style with the rest
[darexius] Yes
[RockDoctor1] Is there a decent ARM-based distro we could start from then remove stuff?
[jtigchelaar] since portage is basically just a script
[darexius] RockDoctor1, Gentoo has an ARM overlay
[jtigchelaar] we could customize it fully to our needs without having to begin from scratch (pun intended)
[RockDoctor1] Haven't used Gentoo
[darexius] If we forked from Gentoo or Funtoo, we'd basically already be at LFS-state, just with a package manager
[jtigchelaar] true
[darexius] Gentoo in and of itself is actually nothing more than LFS with a package manager
[darexius] If we forked from it we'd save time compiling a base
[jtigchelaar] maybe i missed something, but what exact hardware are we targeting here?
[darexius] Well, that's something else to talk about
[darexius] Initially way back when we were going for a SCRATCH-exclusive Open Source OS
[darexius] But I think that's stupid now
[darexius] Why not support all x86- and ARM-based platforms?
[phoenix4552] ambitious... go on....
[jtigchelaar] global world domination
[darexius] We could have the "tablet edition" that goes on touchscreen tablets, a "desktop edition" that is a desktop version configured for mice and keyboards that has some exclusive cloud computing thing to work with the tablet edition, etc
[darexius] You know what I mean?
[jtigchelaar] wow, you're actually aiming for world domination, yeah, i catch your drift
[darexius] Why settle for less?
[jtigchelaar] true that
[pierut] wireless syncing is a big thing
[jtigchelaar] but timewise we'd have to pick one
[jtigchelaar] for now
[RockDoctor1] desktop vs. touchscreen?
[phoenix4552] start with the touchscreen
[darexius] Initially I think the tablet spin would be our focus.
[darexius] Desktop OS would be easy to set up
[RockDoctor1] Seems like a lot of work to make one system do both well
[jtigchelaar] TS is a whole different ballgame and the one that should have our focus
[jtigchelaar] interaction is quite different from TS to desktop
[darexius] The base and the apps would essentially be the same, just in a different format and config
[jtigchelaar] true
[darexius] One configured for a touch interface, the other more keyboard/mouse centric, but both with the same ideology
[jtigchelaar] but we do agree TS is the main focus?
[RockDoctor1] Seems like a dilution of effort
[jtigchelaar] i tend to agree
[phoenix4552] not really
[phoenix4552] focus on one
[darexius] How so?
[phoenix4552] when it's done...
[jtigchelaar] for a start at least
[phoenix4552] reconfigure for the other
[jtigchelaar] i don't say both can't be done
[phoenix4552] I think he's saying only one will be done at present
[phoenix4552] when that's complete, the other will be done
[phoenix4552] is that right?
[jtigchelaar] but in my opinion we are as you stated lacking a good business centered TS OS
[RockDoctor1] Ideal would be a one system that works both ways - I plug in a mouse, I can use it, or not, as I see fit.
[jtigchelaar] yes Samantha
[darexius] RockDoctor1, that's right
[jtigchelaar] hmmm
[jtigchelaar] put it like that
[RockDoctor1] click = tap; double-click=double-tap??
[darexius] The desktop spin would be nothing more than the TS OS configured defaultly for kb/ms
[RockDoctor1] left-click vs. right-click
[jtigchelaar] well...there would be no difference then
[jtigchelaar] no different config
[darexius] That's what I'm saying
[jtigchelaar] i'm trying to catch up to your way of thinking
[darexius] Main thing being how we address right clicking in the TS OS and removing the virtual keyboard in the DT OS
[jtigchelaar] maybe i need more coffeee
[jtigchelaar] those shouldn't be issues
[darexius] They're really not, they're just configuration changes
[jtigchelaar] if a keyboard is attached the onscreen one won't show automatically
[RockDoctor1] My current desktop (LXDE) works well with a mouse and keyboard - not sure I could easlity work it on a TS
[darexius] Exactly
[darexius] RockDoctor1, that's part of the objective of ScratchOS
[darexius] Bridging that gap
[jtigchelaar] which brings us back to the fact that this OS should be focussed on working well with TS
[RockDoctor1] How essential is on-screen keyboard?
[darexius] No OS has done that so far except Android and iOS, which aren't very business friendly
[EndEng] hey, i am here, did we start early, or am i an hour off
[darexius] You're off an hour :P
[jtigchelaar] and hi
[EndEng] hi, i will catch up
[jtigchelaar] OT: The base of our effort should be the TS
[darexius] RockDoctor1, On-Screen keyboard is what most are use to but I'm sure there are other solutions, such as if you plug in a keyboard or connect a bluetooth keyboard, the onscreen won't show up
[jtigchelaar] i think it's easier to adapt a well designed TS OS to desktop than the other way around
[RockDoctor1] Just trying to get a feel for the common business use situations
[darexius] That can be (with some udev hacking) set up
[darexius] For example, if you dock it, the virtual keyboard doesn't show up, but if you undock it and don't have an attached keyboard that udev can find, it shows the onscreen keyboard.
[jtigchelaar] business use implies typing...a lot
[darexius] Little script in the background that runs to see if udev has /dev/kb or something
[darexius] Yes, it does
[jtigchelaar] but it's not all
[darexius] There's also OCR for writing
[jtigchelaar] ideally you'd want it with you in a meeting
[jtigchelaar] exactly
[jtigchelaar] i always write and scribble
[jtigchelaar] it should be able to handle both OCR and images
[darexius] Naturally I think it should be an option, virtual keyboard, ocr, or none
[EndEng] and Tags
[darexius] Oh definitely
[jtigchelaar] and provide means to distribute them, but that's another story
[darexius] Kinda like OneNote but with tagging
[jtigchelaar] exactly
[darexius] So are we pretty cool about the base and keyboard thing?
[jtigchelaar] most of these things exist in one form or another
[jtigchelaar] yes
[EndEng] We need to have some web sync functionality built in
[darexius] And the spins we're doing?
[darexius] I know RockDoctor1 has a lot of good input here
[EndEng] so when i take notes they are synced automatically and on my desktop
[pierut] dropbox is nice.
[darexius] EndEng, we're definitely going to have a cloud computing solution between the desktop and tablet os's
[jtigchelaar] tapping into the cloud idea
[EndEng] sorry, available via desktop / laptop
[EndEng] i agree, dropbox is great, but many non tech people have no idea
[jtigchelaar] it should not be something they have to fiddle with
[darexius] I'm sure there's going to be some custom GUI scripting going on for these utilities
[jtigchelaar] it should just be there
[darexius] Well, it could be like a "register me"
[darexius] If you register in the beginning, you have a ScratchOS account
[jtigchelaar] true, some form of user interaction will be required initially
[darexius] And then when you set up your desktop or whatever, you log into your account instead of register
[darexius] And boom, syncing starts up automatically
[jtigchelaar] exactly
[EndEng] dropbox, ubuntu one, google, all require email and pwd
[jtigchelaar] *cough* OpendID?
[pierut] could have it centered around the business's server
[jtigchelaar] openID? *
[EndEng] i don't mind openID
[darexius] openID is good
[jtigchelaar] more and more componies are moving to it
[darexius] So is dropbox
[darexius] Are there any advantages to openID?
[jtigchelaar] asides from being a widely accepted standard...no
[EndEng] other then an actual attempt at a standard,
[jtigchelaar] lol
[darexius] So openID it is?
[jtigchelaar] we would definately have to look at it as an option
[darexius] We'll leave that open for now until it becomes a more involved issue
[darexius] There's also JungleDisk
[EndEng] so i know we have talked about this before, but are we going to have limitedapps for instant on type functionality
[jtigchelaar] jungledisk is commercial right
[jtigchelaar] ?
[darexius] Is it?
[darexius] EndEng, what do you mean?
[darexius] JungleDisk is commercial, woops
[darexius] Sorry
[jtigchelaar] np
[EndEng] well when i walk into a meeting, it would be nice if i could just click a button and start taking notes,
[darexius] Oh yes
[darexius] That will be a homescreen function
[RockDoctor1] I agree
[jtigchelaar] i tought it was a given
[darexius] Instant one-click to email, task lists, notes, etc
[RockDoctor1] Zero-second boot
[fr3dz] lol
[darexius] The business guy should be able to do everything critical from the homescreen
[EndEng] for example, how many times do you go to a meeting with a notebook and never open it, then you need to write that one thing
[darexius] lol instant boot would be awesome. Won't happen readily. That'll take some work
[EndEng] you don't want to wait 15 - 45 sec for boot
[phoenix4552] 3 sec?
[jtigchelaar] no, but some form of hibernating would be feasable
[jtigchelaar] and bring about <5 sec boot
[darexius] Ideally your unit would never turn off :P But if we make a hibernation image that's persistant..
[EndEng] 3 - 5 sec is ok
[phoenix4552] more or less
[darexius] It's theoretically possible to boot local in liess than 5 seconds
[EndEng] but much more then that, you will wite the info on a post it note
[darexius] I can make a kernel boot in 1 second
[RockDoctor1] WIth a desktop?
[EndEng] battery life vs. weight is a key issue
[RockDoctor1] upstart and systemd aren't there yet
[jtigchelaar] true hibernation would save the battery, but would delay booting slightly
[EndEng] all these business peps i travel with have the super light laptop, then have the 10lb batttery
[darexius] Longest thing imho is POST
[EndEng] how is hib on a ssd?
[jtigchelaar] true
[darexius] On an SSD it should be pretty quick
[darexius] Why aren't we mentioning suspend-to-RAM?
[darexius] It uses next to no power
[jtigchelaar] which brings us to the 'exact' specs of the SCRATCH again
[jtigchelaar] wow
[darexius] Well remember, ScratchOS, while being the SCRATCH's OS, will also generic for everything else
[jtigchelaar] that would be the ideal solution yes
[jtigchelaar] true
[jtigchelaar] i'll try to remember this time
[pierut] ;D
[darexius] We want (I thought) to target the entire x86- and ARM-based tablet field
[jtigchelaar] yes, just a momentary lapse on my side
[darexius] lol
[darexius] It's all good
[darexius] If we limit the OS to just the SCRATCH, it takes away from the scope of the objective
[jtigchelaar] ACPI S3 is supported under gentoo?
[darexius] Yes
[jtigchelaar] well
[jtigchelaar] that's the ready made solution right there then
[RockDoctor1] Hibernation/Suspend (and wakeup) seems to be an ongoing problem depending on distro and hardware
[EndEng] i think is mainly a hardware / driver issue
[darexius] We'd have to test it a lot I'm sure, and patch for it
[RockDoctor1] Will tablet hardware be any more consistent than netbook hardware?
[darexius] S3 hasn't really matured until this past year really
[jtigchelaar] yeah, i'm looking at the ACPI4Linux now
[darexius] Really the chinese market is what REALLY diversified the tablet market, mostly the ARM market
[jtigchelaar] didn't know it had gone this far
[jtigchelaar] i've been out of this game too long :)
[RockDoctor1] Brings up the question of how broad a base to target
[darexius] I'd like to think that anything with a touchscreen can benefit from ScratchOS
[darexius] Naturally the ARM fork would come after we launch scratchOS
[darexius] ARM will be infinitely harder to dev for
[darexius] But naturally should still be in our eventual scope
[jtigchelaar] so we'll focus on X86 for now
[darexius] Yeah
[RockDoctor1] x86 tablets == atom??
[jtigchelaar] won't change the basic principles
[darexius] RockDoctor1, there are atom tablets, celeron tablets, geode tablets, c7 tablets, etc
[EndEng] darexius, have you looked at the viewsonics
[darexius] No I have not
[EndEng] DSF767 has one, targa and gets good battery life
[darexius] Googled them just now, will bookmark and look at it
[EndEng] 10" form factor
[jtigchelaar] they are ARM devices not?
[darexius] I see good specs for cheap
[fr3dz] checking on it now
[jtigchelaar] the 10"is not
[jtigchelaar] the 7"is
[darexius] I'll look into them as developer units
[darexius] See what we can do
[darexius] No promises, obviously, but we'll see what happens
[jtigchelaar] wow, got excited there for a moment :)
[darexius] lol
[jtigchelaar] recap: x86 based development for now
[darexius] Ideally, yes
[jtigchelaar] based on Gentoo with Portage
[EndEng] has anyone here been following the android 3.0 vs 2.3 vs phone version & tablet version?
[jtigchelaar] Conky on the homescreen
[darexius] Obviously forking entirely from their tree and only using their tree to cycle packages from
[jtigchelaar] ACPI S3 for suspend/hibernate
[darexius] I've been looking at Android 3, EndEng, yes
[jtigchelaar] obviously
[darexius] jtigchelaar, that's about right
[darexius] DropBox or openID for syncing
[RockDoctor1] Scripting language?
[jtigchelaar] and that yes
[darexius] RockDoctor1, well, it'd be totally open. BASH, Python, etc
[EndEng] i love dropbox, but we can't rely on them, they could go away or get purchased by MS
[jtigchelaar] any and all scripting languages would be possible
[RockDoctor1] More languages = more clutter on the tablet's internal storage
[jtigchelaar] also true
[jtigchelaar] but are we going to limit the end user, or are we assuming they wont care?
[RockDoctor1] I'm not particularly advocating any particular language (aside from bash)
[jtigchelaar] lol
[RockDoctor1] Don't limit the end user, but limit the developers
[EndEng] housekeeping question, i assume that somebody turned on logging and we will post the log to the forums?
[darexius] Yes
[darexius] EndEng, yes
[EndEng] just making sure
[jtigchelaar] that's maybe a question for a later time then, i really don't have a preference myself
[darexius] I'm not sure what scripting language to use. It's kind of a preference thing
[darexius] Same
[RockDoctor1] graphics toolkit ?
[EndEng] i like python for sys level stuff
[darexius] I've always liked gtk, but qt is rather pretty
[RockDoctor1] just thinking I don't like to waste space w/ gtk and qt and fltk and enlightenment and ...
[jtigchelaar] QT would be my choice
[pierut] i can't say i like python ;s
[pierut] open, yay... but it confuses me
[jtigchelaar] @pierut what does?
[pierut] python
[jtigchelaar] ahh
[jtigchelaar] no other opinions on the graphic side?
[RockDoctor1] I use gtk
[pierut] maybe i just havent stuck my nose in it enough
[EndEng] for presentation i am more in the gtk camp
[RockDoctor1] have messed with python, perl, lua; not competent in any of them, but aI can get by
[jtigchelaar] well, i'll accept that vote and sign up with the GTK camp then
[EndEng] also like lua, it's has a place as well
[jtigchelaar] lue is good
[jtigchelaar] lua*
[darexius] Lua is a pretty good scripting language
[jtigchelaar] and pretty potent at that
[RockDoctor1] how clean is lua-gtk these days
• pierut isnt certain
[darexius] I'd like to say pretty clean. LUA has come under tremendous development lately
[darexius] GTK is... well, GTK
[RockDoctor1] WQe're in the gtk2 to gtk3 transition period. Is that going to be an immediate or short-term problem?
[EndEng] stolen from web "QT is definitely the better way if you want robust multi-platform support - Linux, Windows, smart-phones, embedded appliances, etc"
[jtigchelaar] i have actually used QT for cross platform dev yes
[jtigchelaar] and it too has come a long way
[darexius] Do we want to maintain cross-platform for our cloud solution?
[darexius] Realistically we're going to have to make our own GUI frontend for our cloud computing solutions, but I can't think of anything else
[jtigchelaar] me netiher
[darexius] Not sure what else I would port to Windows or Mac OS X
[RockDoctor1] looks like another situation where you could maintain the flexibility at little or no cost by using the right tools
[jtigchelaar] so...
[jtigchelaar] QT is an option?
[darexius] Well, if anything else came up, and we were using QT, we wouldn't have to worry about it
[darexius] I agree GTK is nicer and more professional looking
[jtigchelaar] that can be fixed :)
[jtigchelaar] the look that is
[darexius] So we're agreeing on Qt?
[jtigchelaar] it has my vote
• pierut agrees
[darexius] RockDoctor1
[RockDoctor1] ok w/ me
[jtigchelaar] see how quickly i changed camps there?
[darexius] EndEng?
[phoenix4552] lol
• pierut gets the cattle pro
[pierut] d
[jtigchelaar] lol
[darexius] Since he brought up the copy-paste I'll assume he's a Qt advocate
[RockDoctor1] So, I have to learn Gentoo, Qt, - what next - Vala?
[EndEng] well ....
[jtigchelaar] safe assumption
[jtigchelaar] or
[EndEng] QT is fine
[darexius] RockDoctor1, Gentoo doesn't really require learning
[darexius] As long as you can do some CLI you'll be okay in the gentoo camp :P
[RockDoctor1] it at least requires a successful installation
[jtigchelaar] and i'd have to catch up on a lot of things too
[jtigchelaar] too long in the windows dev for me
[darexius] I'm going to write a livecd and post it on the website for you guys
[jtigchelaar] so we're in it together
[jtigchelaar] that would be vere helpfull
[darexius] That'll be a good starting point
[darexius] While we're here, let's talk dev cycle
[darexius] I'll post an initial CLI livecd image specifically as a ScratchOS fork
[darexius] After that, obviously the liveCD will need a GUI variant
[EndEng] do you have svn or git
[darexius] I'm thinking minimal openbox or something just to run the installer script we'll set up
[jtigchelaar] svn, but i'm willing to install GIT
[darexius] EndEng, I'm going to set up a git server tomorrow
[RockDoctor1] openbox is good
[darexius] or we can use jtigchelaar's server
[EndEng] we are svn, but git is good as well
[jtigchelaar] it's not up 24/7
[jtigchelaar] so don't rely on me
[jtigchelaar] :)
[darexius] Well then tomorrow I'll set up a git server here at the shop
[darexius] Now, as far as dev cycle
[darexius] After we have the "graphical installer", how do we want to do this?
[jtigchelaar] depends on the timeframe i guess
[darexius] No timeframe
[darexius] Take as long as we have to in order to get it right
[jtigchelaar] why doesn't my manager ever say that?
[RockDoctor1] he's paying you
[fr3dz] wrong manager?
[jtigchelaar] ahhh, that would be it
[darexius] I'm adopting the philosophy I have for my company into this project :P Take as long as it needs to to make it right, don't half ass over a time limit
[EndEng] i think we need a list and assign priority
[jtigchelaar] second that
[EndEng] then devs can take items and we can do nightly builds
[darexius] That would work
[jtigchelaar] maybe adopt an Agile/Scrum method here?
[EndEng] second on the agile
[jtigchelaar] that way we could plan sprints
[jtigchelaar] and devs could pick stories from the sprints
[EndEng] exactly
[jtigchelaar] there are some excellent open source SCRUM management tools out there as well
[darexius] I'm game either way
[jtigchelaar] i'd go the SCRUM way
[jtigchelaar] more chance of success
[jtigchelaar] by personal experience
[fr3dz] SCRUM
[jtigchelaar] and it allows us all a clear overview
[EndEng] i am good with either scrum or agile
[jtigchelaar] actually SCRUM is an implementation of AGILE
[darexius] We all good with scrum?
[darexius] Exactly jtigchelaar
[EndEng] do we have any "presentation" people
[EndEng] or are we all backend folks
[EndEng] presentation layer*
[darexius] I think that's going to be an evolution over time
[jtigchelaar] i myself suck at graphics, but as stated i do have a good graphic developer
[pierut] i've never used it... but i am flexible!
[darexius] I am use to having Release Engineering teams, Artwork teams, etc
[darexius] Package Management teams
[EndEng] i suck at making graphics, but i can tell you what looks like shit... lol.
[jtigchelaar] i can do the basic graphics
[jtigchelaar] and have him look it over
[EndEng] For example, the new win 7 phone is great, however the home screen sucks
[darexius] Amen EndEng
[jtigchelaar] he doesn't get the whole 'open source' thing though
[EndEng] the iphone was successful not because it was a great phone
[darexius] Well, as far as artwork, we'll need logos, themes, etc
[EndEng] because it looked nice
[jtigchelaar] marketing is key
[jtigchelaar] right Samantha ;)
[darexius] Should I post that on the forum/wiki/scrum as a later project to visit when core dev is done?
[jtigchelaar] yes, i would agree
[phoenix4552] oh... I'm all over that
[darexius] Really the artwork doens't matter if we don't have a base distro
[jtigchelaar] lol
[jtigchelaar] true
[jtigchelaar] good distro first, pretty pictures later
[EndEng] i thought we covered that, gentoo
[darexius] We did, but I'm going to completely fork it and make a LiveCD for it
[jtigchelaar] yeah, not quite what i meant
[darexius] CLI first then Graphical
[jtigchelaar] check
[darexius] After Graphical I'll make an installer script
[darexius] May just be a CLI installer for now
[darexius] But it'll work
[darexius] Then our base will be preconfigured to point at our git tree
[RockDoctor1] Live USB w/ persistence?
[darexius] with all our predetermined dev tools
[darexius] Unetbootin does that RockDoctor1
[darexius] Would everyone rather I just make a liveusb image?
[jtigchelaar] yeah
[RockDoctor1] as do the Ubuntu and Fedora-specific tools
[EndEng] either is fine, i would end up converting to usb anyway
[pierut] same
[EndEng] who has a cd rom any more...
[pierut] <- ;s
[darexius] lol
[jtigchelaar] lol
[darexius] pierut, does your computer support booting from USB?
[EndEng] that almost like having a tape player
[RockDoctor1] A USB image could be a real install rather than an iso and some type of overlay
[pierut] oh yes
[pierut] my pc is pretty awesome :D
[darexius] RockDoctor1, that may help with distributing our dev image
• pierut pets phenom II x4
[EndEng] i think my Dell Mini just found a new purpose.
[darexius] If we have tools we each use we can make them available on the USB image
[jtigchelaar] VI!
[jtigchelaar] *ahem*
[pierut] ;p
[EndEng] there always has to be on VI guy in the group
[jtigchelaar] lol
[jtigchelaar] i knew that was coming
[pierut] nano u_u
[EndEng] in this era, it's ok to use a mouse
[jtigchelaar] no i'm actually quite used to full graphic IDE's
[RockDoctor1] gvim?
[EndEng] emacs from command, gedit or notepad ++
[darexius] lol
[EndEng] or VI
[pierut] gedit too... vi capable
[jtigchelaar] what did i start....
[RockDoctor1] geany is my current fave
[darexius] nano centric, vi and gedit capable
[darexius] Okay, so LiveUSB
[pierut] i like my editors simple... none of that :write stuff o>
[pierut] yes
[RockDoctor1] ed?
[darexius] lol
[darexius] Okay, good
[jtigchelaar] i think we lost home several minutes ago
[jtigchelaar] oh wait
[darexius] I'm at the end of my list, anyone have anything else to add?
[jtigchelaar] well
[jtigchelaar] kinda stupid question i guess
[darexius] Like I said, I will email everyone (Gotta set EndEng up one) when smf is up
[darexius] jtigchelaar, Now's the time for them
[jtigchelaar] but seeing as i am the only one without a tablet as it seems
[jtigchelaar] what would be good for testing this on?
[darexius] jtigchelaar, I'm going to be developing on my laptop more than anything
[darexius] I have my LE1600 to test touchscreen stuff on
[darexius] and a TC1100
[jtigchelaar] okay
[darexius] Realistically that's up to you, though
[pierut] need gus and team's kernel before i can do anything on my eken... but i think that is coming soon
[RockDoctor1] My nly touchscreen device is my flytouch
[RockDoctor1] only
[jtigchelaar] i guess i'll have this discussion on the dev forums
[EndEng] i have an a81e
[darexius] I will try to see if I can't figure a way to get good cheap tablets out
[darexius] Again, NO PROMISES
[jtigchelaar] noted
[darexius] Initially all my dev is going to be on my laptop(s) though
[EndEng] that viewsonic or archos 101 look sharp...hint hint nudge nudge
[darexius] lol
[jtigchelaar] lol
[EndEng] i will dev on my laptop as well
[jtigchelaar] i'll use both as i see fit
[EndEng] and test on the mini
[jtigchelaar] laptop/desktop
[pierut] i don't really see deving on a tablet... but it would be easier to test what i have done
[RockDoctor1] I'll probably dev on my desktop when at home, and on the netbook when I'm not
[jtigchelaar] testing is what i had in mind
[jtigchelaar] but there is no way i can afford anything X86 based that's halfway decent right now
[jtigchelaar] but i 'll concentrate on devving first
[darexius] I'll see what I can do
[pierut] yea.. me too.. with xmas and all
[darexius] Anything else?
[pierut] let's get this party started!
[darexius] lol Woot!
[jtigchelaar] YEEEEEEHAWWWW!
[EndEng] when is the next meeting
[pierut] ;D
[darexius] I'll email everyone when SMF is set up and post this log and plans for our next meeting there
[darexius] git will be up tomorrow afternoon
[darexius] We all done?
[pierut] i think i am
[jtigchelaar] guess so...
[EndEng] yep
[RockDoctor1] I'm hungry
[jtigchelaar] half my brain is asleep already anywayz
[darexius] Thanks for joining the team guys :D I really appreciate it. We'll make an awesome OS
[pierut] but we'll all thing of something 10 minutes after this is done
[pierut] \o/
[jtigchelaar] true
[darexius] lol If you do, write it down for the forum
[darexius] For now, I'm packing up and going home :P
[jtigchelaar] for now: nice meeting all you guys
[pierut] can-do
[phoenix4552] that's usually the way of it
[darexius] Later later
[phoenix4552] ditto
[pierut] dittoditto.
[jtigchelaar] later!
[EndEng] out!