bitsko
[21 hours ago]
original question was from bashco "Ask Dr. Craig why he didn’t segregate the witness in version 0.1?"
-----

bitsko [1 day ago]
Roberto Vlad [7:33 AM]
Here you go @bashco :  regarding your Segwit question.

[7:36]
Go back to the beginning.

[7:36]
"Witness Indisguishable and Witness Hiding Protocols"

Uriel Feige, Adi Shamir 1990

The concept is not new, but they will also find it is not as cool as they are being told.

Bitcoin is designed to work such that you can receive funds when you are not online.

They are attempting to alter the protocol without even understanding the basics. A divided tree is less secure and reduces fungibility

And Moore's law is exponential for as long as we can see, whereas the growth of the Blocksize is Logistic

That is important, Logistic and NOT exponential. Which means in time, blocks settle, but these guys do not see how this works.

bitsko
[1 day ago]
Roberto Vlad [7:39 AM]
The Bitcoin model is a SEIR epidemic model with Carriers, An SEIR-C

It is only an approximation of a Gossip model, but this is the simplest way to explain it to non-math geeks.

http://www.springer.com/cda/content/document/cda_downloaddocument/9783540789109-c1.pdf?SGWID=0-0-45-532715-p173817706

[7:39]
You guys recognize the maths?

bitsko
[1 day ago]
@norway ^

christophbergmann [1 day ago]
Vlad is the voice of CSW?

bitsko
[1 day ago]
he claims so

bitsko
[1 day ago]
reading vlads personal posts, I don't think vlad is making this up himself...

christophbergmann [1 day ago]
someone either knows a lot of is very good in pretending to do

bitsko
[1 day ago]
yes

christophbergmann [1 day ago]
does this chat happen in core slack?

checksum0 [1 day ago]
I think he speaks to CSW and act as an intermediary on core slack.

bitsko
[1 day ago]
Roberto Vlad [3:18 AM]
https://youtu.be/OjTqdkusyJw
YouTube Gedd Nicholls
Is Bitcoin Interesting? Up to you...


bitsko
[1 day ago]
Roberto Vlad [8:39 AM]
@bashco  since you guys are laughing at his video about zero fees. That's another reason Wright wants to remove the cap.  Fees were originally coded for "flood control".

[8:39]
Line 2249

[8:40]
https://github.com/trottier/original-bitcoin/blob/master/src/main.cpp#L2249

christophbergmann [1 day ago]
it intriguing, how the CSW story comes back and connects with the patent story

bitsko
[1 day ago]
yes.  I wish I had kept record of all of these posts just in case...

christophbergmann [1 day ago]
I save everything you record here

bitsko
[1 day ago]
:beers:

christophbergmann [1 day ago]
:beers:

christophbergmann [1 day ago]
this is what I do soon

bitsko
[1 day ago]
Did you get the first one I put up a few months ago about Bloody Todd and UTXO not ethereum therefore fraud proofs not needed for spv?

bitsko
[1 day ago]
bitsko [9:01 AM]
Roberto, I wonder if CSW has time to say something about tothemoon.org and BIP100...

bitsko
[1 day ago]
Roberto Vlad [9:09 AM]
@bitsko BIP 100 is interim - it needs to be removed. Bloody Hal

bitsko
[1 day ago]
If you missed any its possible norway kept them? hopefully...


bitsko
[1 day ago]
https://github.com/trottier/original-bitcoin/blob/master/src/market.cpp

bitsko
[1 day ago]
http://i.imgur.com/WyNtR4O.jpg (31KB)

bitsko
[1 day ago]
http://i.imgur.com/1phCzAz.jpg (16KB)

bitsko
[1 day ago]
http://i.imgur.com/I5ef3Zi.jpg (20KB)

bitsko
[1 day ago]
:coffee:


bitsko
[1 day ago]
Roberto Vlad [9:37 AM]
@bitsko, about your question

[9:37]
I want to enable others to do this.

If purse.io and bcoin want to learn I will teach them

bitsko
[1 day ago]
Roberto Vlad [9:40 AM]
Talk about being nice:  If bcoin and purse.io want to have a completely distributed marketplace, they can run this.

They can partner and we will give them the code and the how to

bitsko
[1 day ago]
My personal opinion is that a coder should try and get in touch with CSW and see if there is anything fruitful...


bitsko
[23 hours ago]
Gregory Sanders [9:43 AM]
Too bad CSW's marketplace was already PATENTED!!!

[9:43]
https://www.google.com/patents/CN301189315S?cl=en&dq=elephants&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjirqnmhsDTAhXD6iYKHRVcBGAQ6AEIJTAA

Roberto Vlad [9:45 AM]
Sorry that patent is after bitcoin.  As the code is public, it cannot be patented.  Prior art and all that.  Go fish.

[9:46]
You guys got schooled hard today.  Going to a movie and maybe I'll have Master Blaster school ya some more tomorrow.  :slightly_smiling_face:

[9:50]
Yeah, patent this:

[9:50]
Thin  blocks -
Each node sends its neighbours an inventory list of hashes of the
new blocks and transactions it has. The neighbours request the
items they don’t have yet. If the item never comes through after a
timeout, they request it from another neighbour that had it. Since
all or most of the neighbours should eventually have each item,
even if the coms get fumbled up with one, they can get it from any
of the others, trying one at a time.

The inventory-request-data scheme introduces a little latency, but
it ultimately helps speed more by keeping extra data blocks off the
transmit queues and conserving bandwidth.

[9:50]
http://satoshinakamoto.me/2008/11/17/re-bitcoin-p2p-e-cash-paper-14/
satoshinakamoto.me
Re: Bitcoin P2P e-cash paper – Satoshi Nakamoto
Bitcoin is an innovative payment network and a new kind of money created by Satoshi Nakamoto. His legacy is preserved on SatoshiNakamoto.me

[9:51]
Also:
"The functional details are not covered in the paper"

[9:51]
The use of TX inventory is what makes the bandwidth lower

[9:51]
It's all in the CODE.  CODE.  CODE.

[9:52]
Max Max ya guys later.


[9:53]
One las piece for you muppets to help enlighten you.

[9:54]
using IHTs (Information Hiding Transforms) with master slave bloom filters solves many of the issues in scale

[9:54]
No, BU will not win. Core will not win. New code will. Simpler code. And NO FUCKING CAP!
satoshinakamoto.me
Re: Bitcoin P2P e-cash paper – Satoshi Nakamoto
Bitcoin is an innovative payment network and a new kind of money created by Satoshi Nakamoto. His legacy is preserved on SatoshiNakamoto.me

bitsko
[23 hours ago]
vlad is a troll!

zangelbertbingledack [23 hours ago]
At the least, "NO FUCKING CAP" and simpler code sounds good to me


bitsko
[23 hours ago]
:+1:

bitsko
[23 hours ago]
I do hope somebody saved the postings about fraudproofs and segwit/ptodd/utxo.  I lost them. @christophbergmann

norway [20 hours ago]
@bitsko @christophbergmann @zangelbertbingledack

Of cource I saved it! This is so fucking insane interesting!
From what I just read now:
I really like the idea that the growth of the blocklchain is logistic (My interpretation: the growth of the blockkchain will become constant when all people in the world use it every day transactions) while Moore's law is providing growing capacity.

I have not yet parsed everything from this last conversation, but I certainly will in the next days.

I want to ask CSW about the extreme (and probably unneccessary) concept where nobody stores the whole chain, everybody are running pruned nodes with some blockchain history (secured by A LOT OF WORK) and the UTXO set being proportional in size to number of people in the world (One man, 1 (or 50?) accounts). A situation where the blockchain and UTXO-set doesn't really grow. The amount of data transferred, processed and stored is constant. What does he think about such an idea? What's wrong with it? (I know NSA and their likes are going to save the whole blockchain.)

----------
norway [19 hours ago]
@bitsko I'm drinking now. What's nchains email list?

(As I'm drunk, I have to come back to all this later. BUT: My mind is so inspired right now. I really want to know what CSW think about the possible scenario where nobody stores the whole chain, etc. Just pruned nodes with some history of blocks and the current UTXO. It would probably just require a small adjustment where a hash of the previous UTXO is included as a new data field in a block.)

norway [19 hours ago]
This is an extreme (and not necessary) scenario where everything is constant. Where the blockchain is a sausage of constant length. It's growing in one end, but deleted at the same rate in the other end. The proof of work is big for the sausage, you can't fake it. It's the one and only sausage (or segment of blockchain) that the whole world uses. And the integrity of the UTXO is saved by a simple hash of the previous UTXO as a data field in a block. You don't have to verify all transactions from day one to know if the UTXO is correct if you start a new node. Just make sure that you are alligned with the global sausage (or blockchain segment).

norway [19 hours ago]
:beers:

bitsko
[19 hours ago]
I asked for code and updates here: https://nchain.com/contact/

bitsko
[19 hours ago]
I will pass your message :beers:

norway [19 hours ago]
:verynice:

norway [18 hours ago]
@bitsko Do you know who's behind the cool video "Is Bitcoin Interesting? Up to you..."?

bitsko
[18 hours ago]
Whale Panda
[3:27 AM]
congratulations vlad, quite the acting performance in that video you did there in the end.

bashco [3:50 AM]
what’s that have to do with “Dr” Wright?

mrhodl
[4:08 AM]
His sister posted that video as well

Roberto Vlad [4:21 AM]
Hahaha, I would have loved to play a monkey

[4:21]
@bashco Dr Wright's team made that video

shinobimonkey
[4:21 AM]
That video is a joke

[4:22]
the production quality is piss poor

[4:22]
and it outright lies about fees

[4:22]
thats called a _scam_ Vlad

Roberto Vlad [4:22 AM]
It's more exciting than anything anyone else has ever put out

[4:22]
It's not a lie, it's a throwback to 2013.  :slightly_smiling_face:

shinobimonkey
[4:22 AM]
its a good comedy sketch

[4:22]
:wink:

[4:22]
and its a lie

bitsko
[18 hours ago]
I have no idea

kyuupichan [18 hours ago]
vlad2vlad is pretty clueless about the bitcoin protocol, I know from his stuff on bitcointalk.  He is or was a pumper of iXcoin until a year ago at least.  I wouldn’t take anything he says seriously.

bitsko
[18 hours ago]
Yeah he pumps iXcoin with strange riddles, it is odd.

norway [18 hours ago]
Core trolls seem desperate when they comment the video. I liked it, and I think it's reasonable & visionary. It displays a future that AXA is uncomfortable with.

christophbergmann [10 hours ago]
> Segregated Witness is horrible. It is horrible in all senses of the word. It is a hack. It was designed as a means to demonstrate how smart a few people think they are with no view to the long term

He might be on to something. If it are not patents, this could explain the furor

christophbergmann [10 hours ago]
thanks for posting this stuff

christophbergmann [10 hours ago]
extremely interesting. If this is not Satoshi or some genious involved very early, it is a master troll and deserves as much admiration

christophbergmann [10 hours ago]
@kyuupichan I had the same though. From all r/bitcoin-trolls showing up on r/btc Vlad was imho one of the dumpest.

christophbergmann [10 hours ago]
But imho this gives the story more credibility, as it seems (for me, as a non-technician) that the content exceeds Vlads horizon by far, so he at least must be in talk with some people

christophbergmann [10 hours ago]
@bitsko congratulations for getting in the nChain mailiing list. Is it just a newsletter or a mailing-list in which people discuss? And you got in by asking a question at the contact field?

bitsko
[4 hours ago]
:joy:

bitsko
[4 hours ago]
we'll see if I get mails...

bitsko
[4 hours ago]
here is a response for @norway

bitsko
[4 hours ago]
Norway. The system is Logistic, not exponential. It looks the same at the start, but if you study a little on SEIR-C epidemic models, you will see what I am saying.

In time, Moore's law continues (and it will do this longer than the logistic rapid growth stage of the blockchain) and the blockchain approximates linear growth. At this stage, systems are increasing in storage and power faster than the growth is able to add. This linear growth will seem as nothing.

[10:21]
There is no need to ever delete. The sausage gets longer, but the amount that can be stored increases at an even faster rate.

[10:21]
Year        Block Storage         Storage available
Year 1.     N                          X
Year 3.     3 N                      4 X
Year 6.     6 N                     16 X
Year 9.     9 N                     64 X
Year 12.    12 N                   256 X
Year 15.    15 N                  1024 X

[10:21]
Everyone is thinking short term. They are not comparing the results of a Logistic system with exponiated ones long term

[10:22]
As a function of available storage, we see the blockchain decrease in relative size. Call this the Theory of system Relativity 

Year        % Block Storage         Storage available
Year 1.     100                        X
Year 3.     75                       4 X
Year 6.     37.5                    16 X
Year 9.     14 N                    64 X
Year 12.    4.6 N                  256 X
Year 15.    1.4 N                 1024 X

[10:22]
This is what scaling is about

norway [4 hours ago]
Thanks, @bitsko ! :slightly_smiling_face: